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Decriminalizing Breasts

by TChris

Ventura County, California public defender Liana Johnsson wonders why women can be punished for appearing in public without a shirt while men are free to wander about sans top. Johnsson has been lobbying "to strike down the law that makes topless sunbathing illegal, arguing that it treats men differently from women."

To drive home her point, she produced a short video showing overweight men lounging on California beaches, their ample breasts apparent for all to see.

Not a pretty sight. But Johnsson's mission isn't based on aesthetics. Johnsson wanted to spark a debate about gender equality, but her more urgent objection to laws that define the exposure of a breast as criminally "indecent" is rooted in the harsh realities of the criminal law:

[Johnsson] sounded alarms when noting that because of a recent court ruling, women convicted of indecent exposure could find themselves listed as sex offenders under Megan's Law, alongside rapists and child molesters.

Some will point to a repeal of the law as further evidence of society's moral decay. In reality, repealing the little-enforced law won't change a thing.

"[Johnsson's] looked at places where women do sunbathe nude on the beach, and lo and behold, kids are not traumatized and society has not fallen apart," said Tina Rasnow, coordinator of Ventura County Superior Court's self-help legal access center.

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    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#1)
    by Darryl Pearce on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 12:47:54 PM EST
    ...how come I didn't read about this in my local paper?

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 12:50:24 PM EST
    In general I agree with the sentiment... and in fact, in my hometown and across New York it IS legal for women to go topless (following a court decision in the late 1980s after protests by Rochester's "Top-free 7.") BUT This is exactly the kind of fight that helps the GOP. Do I support the general cause? YES But... NOT at the expense of abortion rights, social security etc etc etc And truly that is the fight. If we press court cases on Gay marriage, on removing "under God" or on toplessness, we are doomed as a national party. We have to get our priorities straight.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#3)
    by Andreas on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 12:59:07 PM EST
    Grisha wrote: "If we press court cases on Gay marriage, on removing "under God" or on toplessness, we are doomed as a national party." Let me guess: "we" equals "Democratic Party" - am I correct?

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#4)
    by glanton on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 01:07:10 PM EST
    Like it or not, Grisha poses a crucial point. For years we have teetered on the edge of triviality. These types of fights, however much they are founded in justice, provide essential fuel for the GOP death machine.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#5)
    by Pete Guither on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 01:16:12 PM EST
    Yeah, this is no time for principles. Same thing I've heard about the drug war for 30 years now.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#6)
    by pigwiggle on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 01:40:28 PM EST
    When last I was in Moscow, ID the town had repealed their indecent exposure ordinance. A few women walked around town topless, received tickets, fought it; finally the town decided the ordinance was too ambiguous and repealed it. The last night I was in town (may 2000) a dozen women were kicked out of my favorite bar for going topless (it was hot). When the cops showed up the few that wouldn’t leave the bar were ticketed for trespassing, the others that were on the street outside were left alone. As far as I know there have been topless women walking the streets every summer since I left.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 01:49:14 PM EST
    Seriously, all we really have are principles. If we're not willing to fight cases that discriminate against select groups (i.e. women, the religiously-unaffiliated, gays, or certain-substance users), then our morality is unfit to be called such in the same way that the "moral values" of the right are not moral because they infringe upon the rights of others. As frivolous as it may sound to fight for toplessness, it's much less frivolous than what made it illegal. It's time to stand up and reform justice so that it can be respected again. No more "picking our battles" and being spineless because the intolerant will whine about it if we make a stand. No more running scared from boobies!

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 01:57:19 PM EST
    Pete - It's all not about principles...it's about framing and which fights to pick. Doing stuff like the women's shirtless thing just builds backlash and plays into the Republican frames. As you know, I'm totally with you on the WoD, and spend a lot of time and effort in organizing, politics and resistance, but I couldn't muster the energy to do that for the topless cause. I said the same thing yesterday about that dopey book "It's Just a Plant" which seeks to de-demonize pot for kids, but plays into the prohibitionist frame that the whole thing is about values and messages for KIDS at all, instead of what free ADULTS can consent to and do without gov't interference.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 02:34:55 PM EST
    The clincher to this was that the women they arrest for indecent exposure can be branded for life as a sex offender. So these laws need to be changed.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#10)
    by BigTex on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 02:51:34 PM EST
    Th' post about framin' th' battle is shootin' straight. Seems that th' battle is bein' faught in th' wrong manner. If th' rallyin' cry was against th' sex-offender statute then there's be a good chance o' success. Even repugs like m'self would support repealin' th' law if th' stated reason was t' keep cows who go topless from bein' called sex offenders. There' s big difference between a topless cow and a pedophile. If th' legislature won't change th' sex offender laws t' match reality then th' other laws should be changed. This is a chance fer th' parties t' work from common ground if a lil forethought is placed into it and stresses th' sex offender aspect.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 03:01:05 PM EST
    You're not seriously comparing the sexuality of female and male breasts are you? When woman look at a man's torso they usually look at their abs, biceps, etc...When men look at a woman's torso they zero right in. All over the world too.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 05:28:21 PM EST
    When woman look at a man's torso they usually look at their abs, biceps, etc.
    If they get a thrill, it oughta be illegal. As for the triviality thing - we are the insurgents in this war. Every opportunity to hand them a defeat, no matter how small, should be overlooked. If we don't demoralize them in the trenches, we'll never win the big fights.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:12:43 PM EST
    Oh yes, compromise your principles, that ALWAYS works.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ray Radlein on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:53:32 PM EST
    This whole debate bears comparison to the time when Hillsborough County's resident lunatic commissioner, Rhonda Storms, tried to make it illegal for men to go shirtless at Buccaneers games.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ray Radlein on Sat Jan 29, 2005 at 06:55:43 PM EST
    ...I should mention, by the way, that she didn't do it to make some kind of point about female nudity; she did it because she didn't want to see shirtless men. I wish I could believe that her considerable entertainment value is the thing that keeps getting her reelected.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 08:39:14 AM EST
    Well, at least I'm glad to see that no prominent Dems have taken up this woman's cause.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#17)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Jan 30, 2005 at 01:20:51 PM EST
    Tex, Couldn't you call them fillies instead of cows?

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:46:04 AM EST
    I think it is great that women will be allowed this freedom. As goes California so goes the country. The puritans would be rolling in their graves but we know now they were wrong. The gnostic philosophy that the body is evil was never a part of Christianity, this is what the early protestants did not know in their ignorance.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 06:16:22 AM EST
    Stand on your principles, either something is right or wrong, you can't base your opinion on "What will the Republicans think?" I wish her all the luck in the world, as her cause is just. Gotta problem with the female form, take it up with mother nature or your god.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 07:40:40 AM EST
    "We have to get our priorities straight." Well, there's a difference between abortion rights and gay marriage / bare breast rights. We won the abortion fight some 30 years ago, and attempts to undermine Roe have been largely unsuccessful. But it's still largely illegal for two women to tie the knot in the buff in public.

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 08:27:37 AM EST
    Could a nursing mother be a sex offender???

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 31, 2005 at 05:50:52 PM EST
    To those who think a woman's fight to allow topfreedom is trivial, please have a look at our site -- By the way, the decision in New York that made that whole state okay for topfree women came on July 7, 1992. What's wrong with the rest of the country?

    Re: Decriminalizing Breasts (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Feb 04, 2005 at 09:51:08 PM EST
    This is long overdue, Europe is ahead of us by about 50 years and they are doing fine. Actually the sex industry feeds on the depravity of prudes. If breasts become common in society then men won't seek out the thrill and the perversion in so many peoples minds will begin to be healed.