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Monday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:56:00 AM EST
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We have court, court and more court today, with no chance to see the news. Here's a open thread to keep everyone advised as to what is going on. I'll ge back tonight. If something's on your mind, let us know.

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    Monday Open Thread | 58 comments (58 topical)
    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:03:15 AM EST
    Worrisome economic trends wrt dollar. Financial Times

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by roger on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:10:46 AM EST
    SD, good link, I have also heard, now that there are 100 and 500 euro notes, that russian mobsters, and drug dealers are keaving the dollar in favor of the euro. not a good sign at all

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:38:02 AM EST
    Fred Dawes The following was posted in the Johnny Carson thread by earror in response to your SS comment. "Fred - The government does not go after individuals who are not self employed for SS (FICA)taxes. By law the employer must deduct and pay the taxes of the individual, both employer and employee portions plus medicare. If the person was self-employed and didn't pay, then they are supposed to pay, and if they did not, then they may have been contacted. Frankly, it sounds like an urban myth. Can you provide specific examples?"

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:39:12 AM EST
    Grrrrr - Above my me. I can't chew gum and walk this AM.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:42:58 AM EST
    SD- I don’t find the transfer of reserves from dollars to euros concerning, in itself. There seems to be little advantage in being the country with the currency of choice; although it may be a measure of the health of that currency. Men much smarter then me, take this year’s US Nobel economist, have linked the slide of the dollar to running deficits and the great size of our overall debt. However, you may want to discount his opinion, after all this is the same guy who said GWB’s tax cuts were far too small. Anyway, I see politicians with little will or ability to curb the promises of pork to their constituency. In turn it seems their constituency is blissfully unaware of the inevitable problems of borrowing against future revenues; happy, as long as they get theirs.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:46:51 AM EST
    What has been on my mind is the upcoming Iraqi elections. From what I’ve gathered in the past few days we can expect a large turnout of Shia and Kurds, with the Suni staying home; or worse, attacking polling places. Here’s to hoping things go spectacularly well. Lord knows these folks deserve it.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 05:58:56 AM EST
    Roger - Since when did drug dealers become currency trading specialists? SD - The EU is based on economies that have 8%-10% unemployment and terrible productivity. Bloomberg and Eubusiness. Foreign investment was up last quarter reflecting the desire of these companies to be in the world's greatest markets at the lowest possible costs. Plus, much of the EU gain has been driven by the expectation of inflation returning to the US. That hasn't happened. I would expect the EU to be in the 115 range by May. So sell your EU's and book the French vacation for July. It will be much less expecnsive than you think.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:05:12 AM EST
    pigwiggle - Taxes are collected on income. If you believe that low tax rates generate higher (income) volume... And the guy can be right on one and wrong on the other.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:11:38 AM EST
    PPJ- I assume he is correct on both. The caveat was added for SD’s benefit; I know how he loathes GWBs tax cuts.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Peaches on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:50:42 AM EST
    Men much smarter then me, take this year’s US Nobel economist, have linked the slide of the dollar to running deficits and the great size of our overall debt Piggy, Although the endorsements did not include Prescott, here are some more smarter men who endorsed Kerry. 10 Nobel economists endorse Kerry But what do they know?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:53:49 AM EST
    It's THE END OF THE WORLD (not work safe)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 07:02:51 AM EST
    I loathe the tax cuts because they have accounted for a significant portion of the deficit. If you produce a tax cut and a nearly balanced budget I would be all for them. The decline of the dollar is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing since it would tend to help the current account deficits. According to most economists, the worry is the rate of decline. If it remainds orderly like it has so far, they the consequences can be dealt with. If it accelerates then it could get nasty. Having a major reserve currency provides some leverge. Also central banks will be more likely to buy US bonds. I'm not sure how big a deal it is. The fact that people are shifting to Euro's despite the poor EU economy is telling. The US is still dependent on the asian central banks buying our bonds. The argument is that they almost have to because if they don't and the dollar falls they get hit hard. But if the dollar is going to fall anyway, they will take a major hit and when do they decide to cut thier losses? So far they are betting that the fall in the dollar will be modest. If it decreases more its not clear what they will do. Anybody who is predicting the Euro to be in the 115 range by May is truly out to lunch or trying to sell you something, will not happen.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Peaches on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 07:06:17 AM EST
    I think the point of Prescott's apparently contradictory statements is that we have a leviathon state. This is conservatives might legitimately make about big government. It has grown to immense proportions since WWII. However, many people associate the answer to this problem to be the conservative presidencies of Reagan and GWB. These adminsistrations are run by former liberals now operating out of a neocon agenda. Neocons want to increase the influence of gov't to a much greater degree than liberals could ever imagine. I don't know which way to go now. I used to be in the Nadar camp that argued both sides were too similar to make a distinction. Then GWB beat Gore and I thought there were too many important issues at stake to keep that position. Now I am leaning back toward an indepent view that see weakening of the Federal Gov't through an immanent financial crisis as perhaps a good thing. We probably need more apathy again from the left and right. Get those voting turnouts down again and start worrying about self-reliancy and building local communities. THe only thing that has kept me from being a devout libertarian is the lunatics, such as O'Reilly, who espouse such views.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:01:30 AM EST
    Canada's Two Biggest Faiths Battle Over Gay Marriage
    Excerpt: "It is wrong to invoke the love of God in order that one person's 'values' might diminish another's value. Those who claim that homosexual people threaten to dismantle the value of heterosexual marriage would do well to remember that if anyone destroys marriage, it is married people, not gays and lesbians."
    I've not heard anything on this topic worded more perfectly than that.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:22:50 AM EST
    ‘Although the endorsements did not include Prescott, here are some more smarter men who endorsed Kerry. … But what do they know? As with the 10 you cite, Prescott criticized GWB’s tax cuts; you’ve read their critique, right? Additionally all agree that deficits are a large problem. What they clearly disagree on isn’t a matter of economic theory, rather a matter of social spending. These ten are in favor of comprehensive social spending programs; going as far as evoking a ‘threatened and unraveling social contract’.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:23:53 AM EST
    Jim, if you take Fred seriously, the joke's on you. Todd, if not God, how about reality? It's no one's business what two consenting adults do in private as long as no one gets hurt, but two homosexuals can not make a marriage. It is something else. Calling things by their right names is the beginning of wisdom. Or, as Abe Lincoln had it: If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? Four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:25:08 AM EST
    “THe only thing that has kept me from being a devout libertarian is the lunatics, such as O'Reilly, who espouse such views.” O’Reilly is no libertarian; I’m offended you would suggest as much.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by glanton on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 08:32:47 AM EST
    Pigwiggle's not kidding about O'Reilly. I'm not libertarian--not by a long shot-- but O'Reilly doesn't merit even a mention in the same breath as such a principled philosophy of self-governance. Labeling him IS a little trickier than most of the pundits on FOX, though. He's certainll a notch above Hannity or Cavuto or Gibson, beats the crap outta Rush for my money, too. I like to think of him as a slightly more thoughtful version of the LCD American paparazzi he used to represent on his other show (Inside Edition, I believe it was?). Politically, he's significantly opportunistic and hypocritical. RE his about-face on WMDs (hypocritical) and his contention that Christmas is 'under assault' (opportunistic), but then, he's on FOX after all. But I gotta admit I find him entertaining.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:00:58 AM EST
    Calling things by their right names is the beginning of wisdom Interesting that you should bring up Lincoln in a discussion of gay marriage, it’s a civil rights issue and your rhetoric is similar to the arguments those in the south made to keep segregation. “This is the way its been since I can remember so it has to be that way,” just isn’t going to save your bigotry.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:32:56 AM EST
    peaches writes "But what do they know?" Evidently not enough to know that everytime there has been a tax cut, the economy has expanded and revenues increased. Can you spell Kennedy, Reagan and now Bush?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:43:37 AM EST
    Greg, I'm not a bigot; I'm just pointing out what's plain for any reasonable person to see. I don't wish to stop gay people from doing their thing in their private lives. Are you like Alice's queen of hearts: "...words mean what I want them to mean..." (the antithesis of language), or are you simply programmed to accuse anyone with an idea you don't understantd a "bigot"?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:55:00 AM EST
    Ace, denying others basic civil rights is bigotry plain and simple.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Peaches on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 09:59:00 AM EST
    ppj,
    Evidently not enough to know that everytime there has been a tax cut, the economy has expanded and revenues increased. Can you spell Kennedy, Reagan and now Bush?
    Of course they know that. It's called Keynsian economics and it is only partially due to tax cuts. The other part (and more important) has to do with Increased spending. It's called increasing aggregate demand through deficit financing and every administration since WWII has engaged in it with the possible exception of Clinton. At least for a portion of his presidency.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 10:11:52 AM EST
    Check this out. It is a test designed to measure implicit bias. It puked when I was taking the sexual bias test; now they are only offering a few. I'm happy to report I am only slightly race biased, preferring blacks over whites. They didn't include hispanics or asians so I can't say for certain I'm not a bigot.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 10:53:32 AM EST
    O’Reilly is no libertarian; I’m offended you would suggest as much.
    Pig, You should be offended he suggests as much.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    Posted by Peaches at January 24, 2005 10:59 AM Of course they know that. It's called Keynsian economics and it is only partially due to tax cuts. The other part (and more important) has to do with Increased spending. It's called increasing aggregate demand through deficit financing and every administration since WWII has engaged in it with the possible exception of Clinton. At least for a portion of his presidency. facts will not convince a mind already concreted. Most Reps are concreted. The hardest job in the world: Attempt to convince a man, that what he believes to be true, is not.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 11:18:09 AM EST
    Posted by pigwiggle at January 24, 2005 11:11 AM yeah Pig, guess I'm a little biased too, noticing that it came from Harvard, believed it would be worth 5 minutes of my life.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 11:30:43 AM EST
    peaches - Gee, I had no idea increased spending caused by reduced taxation caused increased business which caused increased revenues....whcih caused incrased tax revenue... Down here in the red states we say it like this: The headbone's connected to the neck bone. The neckbone's connected to the back bone...

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Peaches on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 11:42:25 AM EST
    ppj,
    Gee, I had no idea increased spending caused by reduced taxation caused increased business which caused increased revenues....whcih caused incrased tax revenue...
    No! that is not called Keynsian economics. That is called the laffer curve and it is a laugher. When you said:
    Evidently not enough to know that everytime there has been a tax cut, the economy has expanded and revenues increased
    I assumed you meant only business revenues. But, you were talking about tax revenues. In which case you are a liar. Check the records. Tax revenues (Fed income tax revenues) have not increase from Bush's tax cut and nor did they ever increase during the Reagon administration from his tax cuts. What Reagan and Bush did and have done was take a page out of the liberal playbook and call it their own. They used the government for increasing aggregate demand by decreasing tax revenues and increasing gov't spending. This is Keynes, pure and simple. Your head bone neck bone analogy you give from the Red states is referred to by the elites up here in the blue states as the bate and switch. Ya'all been taken for morons. Go back and read your introductory economics textbook.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 11:46:38 AM EST
    For those in the Denver area, new trials begin today for the 2004 Transform Columbus Day activists. If you would like more information, please visit the site, or pay a visit to the Denver City and County Building. We stood up against the Sons of Italy Caravan of Conquest, and now Denver is trying to punish us for opposing hate speech and genocide.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:10:52 PM EST
    Do I get you right, Ace? Your only objection to gay marriage is what it's called? I think we have the foundation of a compromise here. Gay couples can enter a lifetime commitment through a ceremony performed by a minister or a justice of the peace. The ceremony will be recognized by the state. They can own property jointly. They have rights of inheritance. They can adopt children. They have access to employer benefits offered to opposite sex couples. But they can't call it marriage? Deal. How about we call it "schmarriage"?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:17:51 PM EST
    "Evidently not enough to know that everytime there has been a tax cut, the economy has expanded and revenues increased." So if we cut tax rates to zero, we'll have infinite tax revenue? By similar logic, if you're in a two-engine plane and one engine fails, your travel time doubles. If both engines fail, you're stuck in that plane for the rest of your life.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:37:13 PM EST
    “By similar logic, if you're in a two-engine plane and one engine fails, your travel time doubles.” Conversely, using your plane analogy, this would be like strapping on 1,000 more engines and expecting to go 500,000 mph.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:43:53 PM EST
    Quaker outlined some of the basic civil rights that are violated when denying a citizen a choice of a partner with full benefits. If you do not support these for each and every American you are a bigot and I consider you anti-American. Why do you hate our country? Is it the freedoms?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:50:50 PM EST
    “Quaker outlined some of the basic civil rights that are violated when denying a citizen a choice of a partner with full benefits.” I fail to see how ‘full benefits’ are a civil right. Marriage seems like a convenient conglomeration of several contracts and powers. All of which can be obtained separately through things like power of attorney, living wills, adoption, and so forth. What concerns me is the special rights married heterosexuals have. Why are these folks getting a free ride?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by cp on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 12:54:01 PM EST
    ppj-it's a good thing you weren't anywhere near the wright brothers, or we'd all still be walking. because, you know, we've never done that flying thing since i can remember. oh, henry ford would have thought you were a fun date too. the laffer curve, trickle down economics, both have been discredited as legitimate economic theories. they come with discordant deficits attached, much more monstrous and dangerous than anything kennedy ever thought of. by the way, for tax history sake, kennedy decreased the top marginal rate from 90% to 70%, a drop of 22%. reagan went from 70% to 35%, a drop of 50%. he was also responsible for the "tax simplification and reform act of 1986", what we in the biz laughingly referred to as the "accountant's and attorney's early retirement act". there is a reason things tend to be named what they are. the laffer curve, trickle down economics and junk bonds represent items with names clearly indicative of of their true nature. reagan reduced taxes, increased military spending enormously, and gave us a parting gift of a national debt that had increased four-fold, from the beginning of his first term, to the end of his second. thanks ron! gw seems hell bent to outdo reagan. should he be successful in his social security "reform", we'll have deficits the like of which the republic has never before seen. such a legacy! the internal revenue code provides that FICA (Social Security) taxes, on wages, be collected at the source, and turned over to the irs, by the employer. the employee is not responsible for either collecting or depositing them, period. the irs never goes to the employee for uncollected/undeposited FICA taxes, ever. as usual, fred dawes is completely out to lunch on this.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 01:08:01 PM EST
    Greg, I'm not a bigot; I'm just pointing out what's plain for any reasonable person to see. I don't wish to stop gay people from doing their thing in their private lives.
    I'm glad to hear you say that Ace... I'm not a bigot either. I don't wish to stop straight people from doing their thing in their private lives. I am wondering though... That was worded carefully... You don't want to stop gays from doing their 'thing' in their private lives but what about the rest? not a bigot indeed... Don't misunderstand me. I don't care about the word marriage at all. I want ALL the 1200+ rights that come with it! Call it whatever you want to by law - I'll still call it marriage in my heart and that you can't legislate.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 01:44:56 PM EST
    I have a question. In the past few days this phrase has been spread about. (this is cut from a Telegraph article) "...so-called emerging target countries, such as Somalia and Georgia." Now seeing as the clearly stated US policy (believe it or not), is to spread democracy and freedom, one would assume that target countries would be dictatorships. Georgia is a democracy. Faimously the old reigem of former Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze was overthrown in a soft revolution in November 2003 following mass demonstrations over alleged pro-Shevardnadze ballot rigging in parliamentary elections. (similar to Ukraine in the last two months). "There was huge relief when his departure came without bloodshed." "The US has a major interest in security and stability in the country, having invested heavily in an oil pipeline which will carry oil from Azerbaijan via Georgia to Turkey. The Georgian armed forces have been receiving US training and support. Increasing US economic and political influence in the country is being watched closely by the Kremlin." The US has interests, fine. The democratic government is friendly. So WHY is it an emerging target?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:14:09 PM EST
    “how do you define "reproduce"?” Well, here in the great state of Utah its “crap ‘em out by the dozen”. I hope your not suggesting I’m not married if I can’t have kids or won’t. If you are, your argument is notably lame, or perhaps I should say lamer.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:17:29 PM EST
    "but you beg the question, e.g. how do you define "reproduce"?" I'll have to ditto piggy on this. Are you implying there's a correlation between reproduction and what can be called marriage?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by cp on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:43:06 PM EST
    omg ppj! you are joking, aren't you? please, tell me you really aren't raising that old canard about marriage being solely for the purpose of reproduction? tell me it ain't so! that goes beyond even lame. it raises idiotic to a new level. bluntly, the argument against same-sex marriage is clearly religious in nature. that being the case, it would seem to be violative of the first amendment's establishment clause. any laws prohibiting it, absent evidence of a legitimate issue of public policy, should not withstand judicial scrutiny. that is the bottom line: religion. of course, no one is suggesting that any church, synagogue, etc. be required, by law, to perform a ceremony that is in direct violation of their religious tenets. sadly, that isn't good enough for the good christians, jews, muslims, et al, who scream unto the night.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:52:48 PM EST
    cp - In case you haven't caught on just yet, I don't a flip about theories. What counts to me is results. When Carter was in, even though I voted for him, I was broke, interest rates were around 15% and inflation was around 12%. Reagan came along and things got much, much, much better. As for spending, last time I checked Congress holds the purse strings. In that case a Democratic controlled Congress. Did you forget that? And the Laffer curve? Well, I started laffing all the way to the bank. And trickle down? Well enough trickled down that I went from struggling to owning. Bush's tax cuts have saved the economy, and we're seeing good solid growth with inflation not in sight. My stocks are doing well, just cashed some of'em to pay for some work on the palatial retirement compond, catfish pond and BBQ stand. Those gold plated door knobs are expensive. BTW... As for flying, remember that according to engineering studies the bumble bee can't get off the ground.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 02:55:35 PM EST
    cp writes - "omg ppj! you are joking, aren't you? please, tell me you really aren't raising that old canard about marriage being solely for the purpose of reproduction? tell me it ain't so!" Who you talking to? Remember me? I'm the guy who said I don't care who marries who. Or why.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:16:56 PM EST
    Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for FAT PEOPLE relative to THIN PEOPLE WHAT?? This can´t be right, I hate fat people and I hate being fat! come to think of it, I perceived the fat as happier and more cheerful because they were smiling, that´s d*mn biased!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:24:29 PM EST
    "Let's not confuse the terms "marriage" and "reproduce" unnecessarily. Let's simply call things by their right names." Just a curious choice, Ace. You're the one who chose to introduce the word "reproduce" into this discussion. Piggy and I asked why. As for me, I'll take you at your word. You chose the word "reproduce" for reasons entirely unrelated to your definition of marriage. Now back to my earlier modest proposal for schmarriage. Same sex couples get all the rights, all the legal recognition under the law for their lifetime partnerships that heterosexual couples get. In return, they agree to call it "schmarriage" not "marriage." You're OK with that, right?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:26:17 PM EST
    “Let's simply call things by their right names.” Here in Utah there are around 50,000 folks married to multiple partners. Keep beating that dead horse. ‘It’s like the guy who, even today, will only call him Cassius Clay.’

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by pigwiggle on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:28:47 PM EST
    “Your data suggest a moderate automatic preference for FAT PEOPLE relative to THIN PEOPLE” I showed a slight preference for fat black folks, with no preference for either straight or gay. Strange.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 03:52:02 PM EST
    C.mon, Ace Let's hear your response to Quaker's proposal. It sounds like a reasonable compromise to me, a straight guy with a slight bias against blacks based on a questionable survey.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Kitt on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:18:55 PM EST
    Claude Dallas is getting out of jail next month for the murder of two Fish & Game officers in 1981.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 04:32:46 PM EST
    I show a slight association of Male and Career. Wot a shocker. I work in an office. My wife stays home with the kid.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by kdog on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:16:27 PM EST
    What concerns me is the special rights married heterosexuals have. Why are these folks getting a free ride?
    This has bugged me as well, and I have a solution to the gay marriage debate. Take away all the special priveledges married heteros get from the gov't, and the debate is over. Gov't has no place in personal relationships anyways. Private enterprises should offer the same benfits to all employees...gay, straight, married, single, etc. If any church wants to declare two people husband and wife, or husband and husband, or wife and wife, etc...who the hell cares?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jan 24, 2005 at 06:27:11 PM EST
    Ace I have no idea where you think this 'debate' was headed. My being critical of something you post does mean I want to 'debate' you.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:10:27 AM EST
    I do so like to pun But TL spoils my fun, While on her midnight run She thins my posts to none. Therefore, since George has won, I'll call my work here done.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 06:21:05 AM EST
    wow complex rhymes ace. just drop TL a few bucks and I sure they will be happy to let you post more frequently

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 01:08:40 PM EST
    ppj--it was that high interest rate during Jimmy's reign that has allowed me to live fairly well, even if I will only get $496 a month from SS. What's a kick in the pants for one, is a boost up for another! Quaker in a Basement--I agree with you in theory--but let's get government out of the marriage business entirely, after all we need to maintain the separation of church and state. All human beings in the US, of proper age, wanting to consolidate their lives and property, must apply for a partnership license--this license allows the signers to all civil rights afforded to all American citizens. If a couple wants this partnership sanctioned by the church, they can have a religious ceremony conducted (so they won't be shunned when they go to worship)! That's it--the problem is solved!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by pigwiggle on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 01:14:55 PM EST
    “but let's get government out of the marriage business entirely” Agreed! “wanting to consolidate their lives and property, must apply for a partnership license--this license allows the signers to all civil rights afforded to all American citizens.” No, wait; what did I miss? OK, ignoring the obvious contradiction; you want the government to license civil rights? My rights are independent of the state. The state is charged with protecting them, but however is more likely to infringe on them; i.e. the subject of this current debate. Really, lets get the government out of the marriage biz.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 02:18:36 PM EST
    Calling things by their right names is the beginning of wisdom. Is amending the constitution -- the highest law in the land -- to define a word the beginning of wisdom? Wouldn't it be easier to let the state legislatures make it a felony for two gay people to say they are married? In return, they agree to call it "schmarriage" not "marriage." Yo! Now you got it! And if "they" call it marriage, why, we'll take those rights back, and pronto! I don't wish to stop gay people from doing their thing in their private lives. Exactly. As long as they keep it private. For example, I hate it when gay people hold hands in public! Only hets should be allowed to do that. (Throw a rider in the amendment.) I'm no bigot either. Gay people are fine as long as they keep it a secret.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 25, 2005 at 03:51:05 PM EST
    et al - The government's rightful place in all of this is to enforce the contractual agreements entered into between the parties. It shouldn't care otherwise, and should just butt out. The church's place is whatever the church decides. If denomination A wants to recognize same sex marriges, fine. If they don't, fine. And, to be fair, we need for gays to agree to not sue those that don't. Now that we've got that problem solved, could we please get started on fixing health care, social security, education and a few of the other real important problems.

    Monday Open Thread | 58 comments (58 topical)