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Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured in Saudi Jail

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 08:34:22 PM EST
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Where is Ahmed Abu 'Ali, a 23 year old American citizen, and why hasn't he called home since November? Amnesty International alleges the U.S. was complicit in his capture by the Saudis, and that he has been tortured, possibly by F.B.I. agents, while in Saudi custoday:

Amnesty International is calling on US and Saudi Arabian authorities to ensure the safety of a US national held in Saudi Arabia who has allegedly been tortured by US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents.

The man, Ahmed Abu 'Ali, aged 23, a US national, is believed to be held in secret detention at al-Ha’ir prison in the Saudi Arabian capital, Riyadh. He has had no access to lawyers and his telephone calls to relatives in the USA ended abruptly in November.

Amnesty International has issued an Urgent Action appeal calling for Ahmed to be given access to lawyers, regular consular access and for him to be released immediately if he is not properly charged.....Ahmed Abu 'Ali's sister Tasneem Ali said: "We are in despair over his safety. We don’t know why he stopped calling us. The US Embassy in Saudi Arabia is not telling us anything and won’t send a consul to check on him."

Ahmed Abu 'Ali was originally detained in Saudi Arabia in June 2003, having been arrested in Medina while taking an exam at al-Madina University. When initially arrested he was reportedly held in incommunicado detention for two months during which time he was allegedly tortured and ill-treated.

Since then, he has called his family in the US every two weeks but they last heard from him on 20 November 2004. The family has contacted the State Department in the US and the US embassy in Riyadh in order to determine Ahmed Abu 'Ali's fate. However they have reportedly not received any assistance.

The family filed suit in the U.S. A federal judge ruled there was "considerable evidence" the U.S. was involved in his capture.

US federal agents were also allegedly involved in his interrogation and torture after his arrest. During an interrogation, FBI agents allegedly threatened him with either being declared an "enemy combatant" and sent to Guantanamo Bay, or with a trial in Saudi Arabia where he would have no legal assistance, public hearing or appeal to a higher tribunal.

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    Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured in Saudi Jail | 22 comments (22 topical)
    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 10:27:28 PM EST
    Surreal. Talk Left, did you ever imagine, in your wildest dreams, that you would be posting items involving OUR government torturing OUR citizens? It just keeps getting worse and worse.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 12:27:25 AM EST
    Logical progression I'd say. Next they'll start doing it in the homeland. Be really easy to disappear people with all the open land you've got.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 12:32:31 AM EST
    Lavocat: just because Americans couldn't imagine this happening doesn't mean it never did before: it just means that now we have the means to know and to try to do something about it.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 04:46:20 AM EST
    Disturbing to say the least. Nevertheless, the AI report has a lot of holes in it that need to be filled in before we know for sure what is going on with this guy. Everything is "reported" with no reference to who reported it, and they can hardly claim to know what exactly is happening to this guy when even they admit they don't know where he is. He may not even be in that prison anymore. Let's hope the truth comes out, and if it is as AI claims, that something is done about this crap.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:09:03 AM EST
    This, unfortunately is not shocking in the sense that it's a surprise but in the reality of knowing that it's actually happening now and not conjecture in some worst case scenario. I was hesitant to believe that the AI headline was true, especially as the article initially didn't present irrefutable proof. However, when I came to this paragraph:
    On 16 December 2004, a US District Court Judge, in a lawsuit brought by Ahmed Abu 'Ali's family, stated that there was "considerable evidence" that the US were complicit in his capture. In addition, the US consul in Saudi Arabia did not visit Mr Abu 'Ali for almost a month after his arrest.
    The gravity of the situation became apparent to me. If we have Sooo much proof that this guy is dangerous then why doesn't the U.S. charge him. Have they even been able to say that they've gotten any valuable info. from their new 'interrogation' style? Meanwhile I'm going to give Amnesty's number to a few friends of mine in case I don't come home for dinner one day. "Don't leave home without it!"

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#6)
    by wishful on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:11:58 AM EST
    justpaul, I think that generally, when the US wants a US citizen to be tortured in a Saudi prison, or anywhere else, they are careful for us NOT to "know for sure what is going on with this guy", wouldn't you say"

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:17:22 AM EST
    Wishful,, Absolutely. Now, if you can show for a fact that the U.S. wanted this guy to be tortured in a Saudi prison, please do. Until you can show this is a fact, and not an allegation, is not the country entitled to the same "innocent until proven guilty" as a defendant? AI implies in its release that it is a fact that this stuff has happened, but they offer very little evidence of that. All I'm saying is that I'd like to see some real evidence before I accept that this is what has happened for sure.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:31:04 AM EST
    Justpaul, you might very well dispute and/or interpret all facts presented. If you wait for proof certain that our collective civil liberties have been removed to a standard of proof that would meet the skepticism of folks like you, Cliff, and PPJ, we would be in gulag condition and your certainty would be of no consequence. The price of our freedom is eternal vigilance not eternal skepticism.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#9)
    by pigwiggle on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:36:09 AM EST
    I can’t help but think of that scene in Brazil where the fly falls into the teletype resulting in some random guy getting packed of and tortured to death. Here’s to wishing my name wasn’t so generic.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:37:36 AM EST
    Concious, Spare me the hyper sanctimony. If we applied your willingness to believe any and all accusations, every criminal defendant would be guilty the moment the ink dried on the indictment, and every allegation of misconduct would be true by the very fact that it had been alleged. If AI has the evidence to back up its allegations, it should produce it. If the case is as clear as you seem to believe, why is there so little hard evidence to back it up? I didn't say it didn't happen, I said I'd like to see some proof that it did. Your willingness to believe anything evil said about this country does not make everything said about it true. Eternal vigilance, yes; eternal paranoia, no.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#11)
    by Darryl Pearce on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:50:11 AM EST
    Eternal paranoia breeds where the government keeps secrets. In addition to Brazil, I also suggest Wrong is Right for your paranoid viewing pleasure.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 07:51:51 AM EST
    justpaul: I don't know what world you are living in, but here are two very recent examples of torture, and one of them was a "white" boy, not just a foreigner. A) Foreign workers face abuse, torture in Saudi Arabia: report http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/07/15/Saudiabuse_040715.html B) Release information and clear my name: Arar to Martin http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/12/20/ArarSummary_041220.html Do you still trust any government statements.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#13)
    by wishful on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:05:47 AM EST
    The government derives its authority from the people. There is no innocent until proven guilty wrt actions by a democratic republic. The government owes us approval rights BEFORE any action taken on our behalf or in our name, even if it is through our representatives, notwithstanding the fact that some sensitive info must be classified. (Someone representing us must approve it on our behalf.) It is in the government's and its citizens' best interest in this case to give every assurance including evidence that the torture of one of our citizens is NOT taking place. They should then be treating this as a sort of missing person case or whatever the international equivalent is. They should be stating that they will do whatever they usually do to find and assist this person to safety.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:18:35 AM EST
    Che, I believe the issue was the United States government wanting a person to be tortured in a Saudi prison, not the general, and admittedly deplorable, conditions in Saudi prisons. Do you have a link that presents evidence of this being the case? Wishful, You are, indeed, wishful. The system you describe does not exist, and has never existed. We do not live on Survivor Island. We elect a government to conduct the country's business for a certain amount of time. There is nothing in the Constitution which even implies that the government must then ask us for permission every time it seeks to act on our behalf. And again, the question was whether or not out government has done this. If it has, then it is wrong and we should do something about it. But I don't think it's too much to ask for some evidence of this having taken place.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:32:39 AM EST
    Justpaul says: We elect a government to conduct the country's business for a certain amount of time. And I say: The government owes us approval rights BEFORE any action taken on our behalf or in our name, even if it is through our representatives... I see no inconsistency here. Then he says: There is nothing in the Constitution which even implies that the government must then ask us for permission every time it seeks to act on our behalf. Through our representatives, we grant or withold permission. Otherwise, we would be other than a democratic republic...a dictatorshop, perhaps?

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#16)
    by wishful on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:48:28 AM EST
    Oops--that was me at 9:32.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 08:55:11 AM EST
    He's obviously an American citizen. He's obviously being held in a Saudi Jail. America is obviously (per the reviewing justice) complicit in this detention. I'd be interested, justpaul, in hearing ANY alternative theory you have on why the U.S. would be doing this? And what would constitute irrefutable proof in your book? I'd say there's enough smoke here to at least call 911.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 09:12:51 AM EST
    Wishful, Your lack of understanding of how our governmental system operates, and how it is intended to operate, is reason enough to ignore any further posts on this subject. Enjoy your delusions. mfox, That's a valid point, and one I don't have a ready answer for. I don't know what the government's reasoning was. But the government often does things I can't explain. The fact that I can't explain them does not lead me to accept at face value the first explanation offered by someone else, especially when that explanation is as incendiary as this one and offered with so little evidence indicating the government's actual intent. I never said I approved of the government's handing this guy over to the Saudi's. I simply questioned the intent behind that decision. If you feel no need to question it because you accept readily that they did it with the worst possible intentions, so be it. That's your prerogative. I don't happen to share it. I will be interested to see, however, how quickly you accept something evil said about one of your pet issues. Such as the ACLU? If a conservative group issues a press release claiming that the ACLU is working against the interests of Americans, would you accept it at face value or would we suddenly be back to the "You never liked the ACLU anyway" argument?

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 09:19:53 AM EST
    Justpaul, If you feel no need to question it because you accept readily that they did it with the worst possible intentions, so be it. That's your prerogative. I don't happen to share it.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#20)
    by kdog on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 09:31:06 AM EST
    My question, would the circumstances remain the same if the kid's name was John Smith.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 12:36:03 PM EST
    My question is a simple one, if nobody knows where he is and nobody has talked to him or seen him, then how does anybody know that he is being tortured. Besides that obvious point, I long for the day when we can interogate or as you people put it, torture, our own prisoners inside our own prisoner of war camps on our own soil. But, until you peace haters all fall of a cliff in unison, I guess I'll have to be satisfied with the Saudi muslims interogating their own.

    Re: Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured i (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 19, 2005 at 12:44:15 PM EST
    Read the related link, Dagma. I realize the plasticity of your brain is zero and there's little room for additional info., but try reading the related link. The source (inexplicably) isn't crying from the rooftops. Himmler would have considered you an asset to the Third Reich (Fifties song "Born too late" playing).

    Amnesty Int'l Alleges U.S. National Tortured in Saudi Jail | 22 comments (22 topical)