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Freddie Gray Thread

Our open thread is filling up with comments pertaining to the Freddie Gray case, leaving little room for other topics. Here's a thread just for the Freddie Gray case. So please put new comments about the case here, rather than in the open thread.

My opinion on recent developments: [More...]

The claim that that DA rushed to judgment and should recuse herself due to her ties to Billy Murphy, the Gray family attorney, is ill-founded. Billy has been a good friend of mine for 20 years. He's an incredibly talented attorney, completely ethical and a wonderful person. I've worked on several cases with him and I've learned a lot from him. He is very highly respected among the defense bar. Any suggestion that he would improperly influence the DA is crazy.

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    Under Maryland law, the prosecutor's office may (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by oculus on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:54:44 PM EST
    present a criminal case to the grand jury. If prosecutor's office does not elect to do so, defendant may request a preliminary hearing but is barred from testifying or presenting evidence.

    link

    Bad Laws (none / 0) (#54)
    by JanaM on Wed May 06, 2015 at 04:29:45 PM EST
    present a criminal case to the grand jury. If prosecutor's office does not elect to do so, defendant may request a preliminary hearing but is barred from testifying or presenting evidence.

    WHAT??  Gee, who wrote and got that law through the legislature? That's hilarious.

    Parent

    There was an interview a night or two (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Mr Natural on Wed May 06, 2015 at 11:15:21 AM EST
    ago on NPR.  A cop who had worked in the Baltimore P.D. during the transition to Martin O'Malley's term as Baltimore mayor said that prior to O'Malley the cops were trained that arrest was a last resort.  That changed with O'Malley, who was apparently all hot and bothered to try Rudi Giuliani's Broken Windows, bust 'em for any reason approach, i.e., Total Incarceration.  

    The radio piece also mentioned that economic mobility in Baltimore was at the bottom of American cities.

    You can't have everything (3.50 / 2) (#36)
    by McBain on Wed May 06, 2015 at 11:52:43 AM EST
    If you want to reduce crime you're going to end up over arresting and convicting.  If you reduce excessive arrests, convictions and prison sentences, crime will go up. There's no perfect solution.

    Right now, in most areas, crime is down so we're complaining about mass incarceration. It wasn't too long ago we were complaining about crime.  People are fickle.

    Parent

    But crime is also down in cities that (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Anne on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:40:43 PM EST
    don't subscribe to the "broken windows" theory of policing, so I don't think this can be reduced to just two choices.

    See here

    And here:

    The drop in New York's violent crime rate, then and now, is consistent with a broader nationwide trend. Rates of violent crime have steadily declined nationwide over the past two decades, and nobody is really sure why. The best argument I've seen suggests that violent crime began to fall around the same time that the crack boom started to wane in the early 1990s. The rates have been dropping across the country since then.

    We do know that the declines in violent crime in New York have been comparable to declines in cities that didn't use Compstat or broken windows. As criminologist Richard Rosenfeld put it in a 2002 paper, "homicide rates also have decreased sharply in cities that did not noticeably alter their policing policies, such as Los Angeles, or that instituted very different changes from those in New York, such as San Diego." The takeaway: Crime just keeps going down everywhere. Nobody is sure why.

    The communities most affected by over-policing are those that really need better, more cooperative relationships with law enforcement, and the constant hassling over petty crimes hardens the communities against police, and in my opinion wastes valuable time and resources.


    Parent

    Well Except Violent Crime is Down... (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by ScottW714 on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:48:37 PM EST
    ...and mass incarceration of non-violent offenders is off the charts.

    What happened to more guns=less crime mem, wrong thread I guess.  Tuns out today locking up non violent criminals is lowering violent crimes rates.

    Parent

    That raises (3.50 / 2) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 11:55:05 AM EST
    over simplification to a whole new level.

    Parent
    Do you disagree? (none / 0) (#38)
    by McBain on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:03:26 PM EST
    Do you think there's a way to get it just right? Please add something other than a snarky comment.

    Parent
    I think suggesting that we either MUST have (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:11:43 PM EST
    rising crime OR "excessive arrests, convictions and prison sentences" fucking batsh!t howling at the moon crazy.

    Ok?

    Parent

    PROFANITY (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:12:23 PM EST
    sorry.  I missed it.

    Parent
    So did I (none / 0) (#41)
    by sj on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:13:46 PM EST
    Maybe post corrected comment which is unlikely to be deleted? Because, in my view, your analysis is dead on.

    Parent
    I think suggesting that we MUST have (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:16:30 PM EST
    either rising crime OR "excessive arrests, convictions and prison sentences" is (more carefully this time) fu@king batsh!t howling at the moon crazy.

    That's what I think.   That is close to literally the silliest thing I have ever heard.

    Parent

    But you didn't offer a solution (none / 0) (#47)
    by McBain on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:46:51 PM EST
    I can deal with crime... (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by kdog on Wed May 06, 2015 at 01:13:21 PM EST
    I can't deal with a police state.  

    But as others have said, it doesn't have to be an either or...we just need to tackle crime in new ways.  Working on the poverty/income gap problem would go a long way towards reducing crime, surrendering the drug war once and for all would do wonders.  Prison reform, with a greater emphasis on rehabilitation and less emphasis on punishment would help reduce crime.  Hard to have a long-lasting reduction in crime when you send convicts to crime school torture chambers.

    Legislatively, we could repeal a whole bunch of criminal laws that are redundant and/or need not be crimes at all.  

    Just a few ideas off the top of the dome.

    Parent

    Add,, (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Wed May 06, 2015 at 02:05:18 PM EST
    and lets not forget, if police-community relations were better, that would help solve more crimes.

    As it is, in many locations, no one wants to cooperate with the police out of fear or distrust or straight-up dislike/hatred...it's hard to solve crimes when the community won't cooperate.

    Sh*t less petty arrests and petty harassment would free up police time and resources to focus on investigation of serious violent crimes.

    Parent

    Marilyn Mosby is conflicted (3.50 / 2) (#30)
    by gadfly on Wed May 06, 2015 at 10:53:43 AM EST
    because her husband, as a Baltimore City Councilman, has a political stake in the outcome of her prosecution against the officers. Further, if it is true that Billy Murphy, as the Gray family attorney, has donated $4,000 to Mosby's campaign, has acted as mentor to the Attorney General and has fully supported her campaign (which included her concocted-tale/lie about the incident that propelled her into her law career) - then he has been less than honest about his "no conflict" counterargument.

    What is the rush to judgement in Moseby's bypassing a normal grand jury indictment in favor of her concocting of charges that a grand jury must consider in the place of balanced fact-gathering normally associated with this jury conducting indictment proceedings?

    This is not a conflict created by Billy Murphy but his appearance on Morning Joe saying, "People are alleging conflict but then can't articulate it" is simply not honest.

    Methinks he doth protest too much

    Maybe you should stop gadding about (3.50 / 2) (#34)
    by Anne on Wed May 06, 2015 at 11:15:43 AM EST
    and pay attention to information already provided, some of which is even in Jeralyn's post, above.

    For what I hope is the last time, I will tell you that Mosby did not bypass the grand jury.  The normal sequence of events in Maryland is for charges to be filed via a charging document - this is what Mosby read aloud at her presser last week.  From there, arrest warrants are issued and carried out, the individuals are booked, there's a bail hearing and bond is set (or not).  This is all conducted through the District Court.  At this point, jurisdiction over the case passes to the Circuit Court, which will transmit the case to a grand jury for the purpose of hearing the facts and evidence on which the charging documents were based, and determine if indictments should be handed up.  In the alternative, where there is no grand jury, a preliminary hearing would be set and held, at which a judge would hear the basis for the charges and determine if there was sufficient probable cause to proceed with trial.

    As for Billy Murphy, I doubt you will find anyone in the criminal defense bar or on the prosecutorial side, in Maryland or elsewhere, who would agree with your assessment of or see the conflict you describe.  

    Parent

    Conflict Issues (none / 0) (#55)
    by JanaM on Wed May 06, 2015 at 04:39:14 PM EST
    I understand Jeralyn's thoughts about Billy Murphy. They are well considered. Everyone loves Billy - at least at some level. But it doesn't serve the case to raise her opinion to a fact and to suggest that a defense attorney shouldn't raise it is suggesting our affection and regard for a player in any case should trump effective assistance and zealous defense of your client.

    It is always uncomfortable when you have to raise conflict issues. It's worse when it's the judge though. LOL!

    Parent

    Be careful what you ask for (none / 0) (#56)
    by McBain on Wed May 06, 2015 at 04:54:52 PM EST
    I'm assuming you think Mosby should recuse herself?  Although I don't like how she's handled this case so far, I'm not convinced she's the worst option.  Bringing in a special prosecutor could mean bringing in another Angela Corey.

    Same thing when it comes to judges.  In the Zimmerman and Casey Anthony cases, the defense lawyers were able to get the original judges replaced because of bias only to find the new judges were even worse.

    Parent

    Nice dog whistle, there... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Anne on Wed May 06, 2015 at 05:10:48 PM EST
    Here's the thing: you really don't know jack about Marilyn Mosby, nor any of her staff, nor who would or could replace her, or who the sitting judges are.

    To take a page out of your playbook, why don't you tell us who would be better - by name.  Otherwise, if you have nothing to offer but criticism that isn't based on much, stop wasting our time.

    Parent

    Anne, your opinion isn't the only one that matters (none / 0) (#60)
    by McBain on Wed May 06, 2015 at 05:18:11 PM EST
    the rest of us get to voice ours on TL. If reading my comments are a waste of your time...... don't read them.  

    If you do read them, make sure you understand what I'm saying.  I said, replacing Mosby might not be such a good idea.

    If you think I'm not qualified to criticize her, I just posted a link to a CNN interview with someone who knows Baltimore law and politics very well.    

    Parent

    Conflict (none / 0) (#61)
    by JanaM on Wed May 06, 2015 at 05:18:51 PM EST
    If you're addressing me about your assumption then all I can say is I have no idea if she should or not.

    I don't have any facts so far that makes me think she has to or even should recuse herself.  But I think it could be ineffective not to raise the issue.

    I am always opposed to prosecutors grand standing when announcing or revealing charges. If I ruled the world there would be no prosecutor press conferences like that or any at all. I see no need for them. But prosecutors have gotten away with this unseemly practice for a long time and now they almost all have public relations offices that should serve the community be just seem to serve the prosecutor's office.

    Don't get me started. ;)

    Parent

    Agreed (none / 0) (#62)
    by McBain on Wed May 06, 2015 at 05:24:10 PM EST
    I also detest the perp walk.  

    Parent
    amen (none / 0) (#64)
    by The Addams Family on Wed May 06, 2015 at 05:31:10 PM EST
    only thing I would add to "grandstanding" is "showboating"

    i'm with Dershowitz - it was a disgrace

    Parent

    But is Mosby talented and ethical? (none / 0) (#1)
    by McBain on Tue May 05, 2015 at 08:47:22 PM EST
    She's in a tough spot but I wasn't impressed with her announcement of charges.

    They weren't meant to ... (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Yman on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:41:16 PM EST
    ,,, impress you.

    Do you have any evidence that she is not talented and ethical?

    Parent

    In my experience, people who cavalierly ... (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed May 06, 2015 at 03:41:10 AM EST
    ... accuse others of incompetence and unethical behavior without any evidence in support thereof, are more often than not hardly pillars of moral rectitude themselves.

    Would you want others to not think twice about offering a similarly serious accusation about you without foundation? I very much doubt it.

    Find another way to make your point about Ms. Mosby's case, without mindlessly impugning her professional and personal integrity like that.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Is McBain a Commusinst (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by ScottW714 on Wed May 06, 2015 at 09:27:11 AM EST
    ...who hates the United States ?

    I doubt it, so please stop using Fox News tactics to imply that your opinion is a foregone conclusion without having to take any responsibility for making S up.

    It truly is the lowest form of disingenuousness.

    Parent

    If Billy (none / 0) (#2)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:32:09 PM EST
    is that talented and ethical then he should be able to talk some sense into her --

    In the meantime she will have to deal with the demand to produce the knife sooner rather than later:

    Officer requests to see knife as part of defense in Freddie Gray case

    And when that happens a whole lot of her case goes away.

    No. Even if the knife was not legal (5.00 / 5) (#4)
    by Peter G on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:44:20 PM EST
    in Baltimore (and the real issue, by the way, in this regard is whether the officers had probable cause to believe the knife was illegal, not really whether it was or wasn't), it would still be second degree murder to place an injured arrestee, shackled, in the back of a police van, without seat-belt-like restraints as required by regulation, and then drive the van wildly for the purpose of "teaching him a lesson" (so to speak), that is, for the purpose of terrorizing and injuring the arrestee, thereby unintentionally (but maliciously) causing his death.

    Parent
    Driving the van "wildly" (2.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Jack203 on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:25:51 PM EST
    I must have missed the evidence for this...

    And you're also aware of the motive...Mr. Goodsen was out to terrorize and teach Mr. Gray a lesson?  He must be a real psychopath.  Hopefully he gets locked up for a few decades and his kids grow up fatherless.

    Parent

    Known in Philadelphia as (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by Peter G on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:44:43 PM EST
    a "nickel ride."  Enough of a systematic problem among Baltimore police that it was exposed in a report a few years ago, leading to the attempted reform of requiring safety restraints for prisoners being transported in such vehicles.
         I don't favor harsh punishment for anyone, by the way, what with being a defense lawyer and all. Candidly describing the accusation is not advocacy for conviction or for any particular sentence. I am more than willing to hear the accused officers' defense, when the time comes for them to articulate a defense, and to give each of them the benefit of reasonable doubt. And if any of them is convicted, I look forward to hearing any arguments in mitigation of punishment. I am just stating the basis, as I understand it, for the charge of second degree ("depraved heart") murder. It does not serve the cause of truth to soft-pedal that.

    Parent
    Nickel rides (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 08:54:58 AM EST
    have been around for a long time.  In fact so long that the term comes from a time when amusement park rides cost a nickel.  They are nothing new and no surprise for anyone who actually has any desire to know what inner city police departments are up to.

    Parent
    I just saw a conversation (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:49:30 PM EST
    about this with some Baltimore lawyers.  It's more complicated than its being presented a being.   The defense lawyer of one of the cops has filed a whatever to be able to examine the knife because he believes it may be illegal under a Baltimore law.  It's not at all clear he is correct.  
    The conversation was on Lawrence.  It should  be up soon.

    Parent
    There is (none / 0) (#8)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:01:02 PM EST
    no claim in the charging documents that any of that happened.

    Parent
    Charging documents (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Peter G on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:35:47 PM EST
    allege the elements of the offense, not the underlying factual theory. At least in all the jurisdictions I am familiar with (which admittedly do not include Maryland; perhaps they're unusual in that regard).

    Parent
    Freddie's still dead, Uncle. (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Mr Natural on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:47:05 PM EST
    That part will never go away.

    What's also not going away is the memory of the barely concealed snickering and winking in the initial P.D. claims that Freddie had injured himself by throwing himself against the transport van walls or door.

    Parent

    Freddie's still dead (2.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:10:49 PM EST
    Freddie's still dead

    And he is still dead from banging his head on the backdoor of the van.

    The question is did he do anything to contribute to it -- like trying to stand up while the van was moving and lost his balance.

    Parent

    No, that's not the question. (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Anne on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:35:50 PM EST
    It's really not.

    But I guess when you can't answer the intelligent questions many have asked you, the only thing you can do is ask questions that aren't.

    Parent

    Clearly (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 05, 2015 at 09:52:23 PM EST
    he was trying to frame the police by beating himself to death.

    -Maher

    Parent

    Oooh, golly...a defense attorney (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Anne on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:01:13 PM EST
    asking to see the knife.  Bet Mosby never expected that to happen, eh?  Surprising given her experience, you know?

    Oh, and I'm pretty sure that if Billy Murphy did talk to Mosby, you'd have something snappy to say about it, and I don't think it would be complimentary.

    Parent

    Jeralyn's friend, Mr. Murphy (and mine) (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Peter G on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:49:41 PM EST
    represents the deceased victim's family, not any defendant. He has every right to advocate with the D.A.'s office, and the State's Attorney has a duty -- I would venture to guess, under Maryland "victims' rights" law, which conservatives ordinarily profess to support -- to consult with him.

    Parent
    For some reason, there has been (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Anne on Wed May 06, 2015 at 06:46:22 AM EST
    much made both of Mosby's stated conviction to advocate for victims of crime, as well as her pre-Gray connections to Billy Murphy; I suspect that reason is that on the one side are 6 members of law enforcement and on the other is a young man with a long list of arrests, as if somehow neither  Gray nor his family is entitled to any voice via the prosecutor's office nor representation by one of the leading lights of the defense bar because Gray had an arrest record.

    This has been a common thread in all of the recent police-involved deaths: that these men didn't deserve better than to die at the hands of police who were just doing their jobs, that having an arrest record or just living in a high crime area gives police license to do whatever they want.  

    Has it always been this way?  Or has this mindset been nurtured and encouraged by the post-9/11 with-us-or-against-us attitude, and the perception that anyone who wears a uniform - whether it's a police uniform or a military one - is engaged in a battle against an enemy, so those who are killed or injured must have somehow deserved it.

    It feels very much to me like the balance of power is tilted much too far to the side of authority and not enough to the side of the citizenry, and the disturbing part is the way this has become normalized, and in some cases, wholeheartedly accepted.

    I'm fully aware that there are times when police must use force to protect others and themselves, and that there are many fine police officers out there with a commitment to good policing; that they get tarnished by the actions of their comrades has to be hard for them, and it certainly makes the job harder to do.

    Parent

    Personally (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 08:47:31 AM EST
    i think the mindset, which did not always exist, is at least partly the result of decades of politicians left and right running on "law and order".  And building more and more prisons which of course can't sit empty.  In fact it could be said Bill Clinton gave it a big boost even if it probably was not his intent.

    Parent
    WTF is this fascination (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Repack Rider on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:19:35 PM EST
    ...with a purported knife?

    Does the presence of a knife, or a bag of heroin, or the loot from a bank robbery, or a kidnap victim somehow excuse the depraved indifference and/or malice it takes to reduce a healthy man to a mortally injured victim?  Does it excuse ignoring a plea for medical assistance from an injured victim?  While that victim is helpless, in handcuffs and leg shackles?

    Do you think the people who took responsibility for Freddie Gray by placing him under arrest should face criminal charges arising out of his injuries?

    Yes or no.

    If yes, what charges?

    If no, whatever you are smoking should be illegal.

    Parent

    Yeah, as if a knife (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by MKS on Tue May 05, 2015 at 11:36:23 PM EST
    could justify murder.

    Yet, another unarmed black man killed by the police.....

    And another round of apologists for the police.

    Parent

    RR (2.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Uncle Chip on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:36:36 PM EST
    So you are saying that no arrestee ever tries to hurt themselves while in police custody???

    Parent
    I made no claim either way (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Repack Rider on Wed May 06, 2015 at 08:14:23 AM EST
    Read it again.  I said nothing about prisoners trying to injure themselves.

    You did.  If you have evidence that Mr. Gray tried to inure himself, please present it.

    Ironically, you demand that the prosecutors meet every standard of proof, while you just throw out accusations based on sheer hatred.

    I said that once he was a prisoner, Mr. Gray had the right to a trial.  His captors held his life in their hands, and he was fatally injured less than an hour after being seen in apparent good health.  If you do not accept those statements, please elaborate.

    Parent

    Inferences (none / 0) (#57)
    by JanaM on Wed May 06, 2015 at 04:58:37 PM EST
    I'm not sure that the public yet knows when Mr. Gray was injured (there may be a number of injuries along the timeline) and to what extent that injury or injuries caused his death in the hospital.

    Suggesting possible actions by Mr. Gray is as speculative as suggesting the police van driver gave Mr. Gray a wild ride with the intent to injure or with careless disregard for his safety.

    The same thought process that allows some to infer Mr. Gray was given a "nickel ride" because a report claimed it had happened before by other officers is the same thought process that allows for inferences as to Mr. Gray's actions that may have contributed to his injury because other arrestees have behaved similarly. None of that is getting into a criminal trial. It is about what evidence exists about what these people in this case did or said.

    Parent

    That you could allegedly read Repack's (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Anne on Wed May 06, 2015 at 08:35:33 AM EST
    comment and then ask this question speaks volumes about your ability - or, I should say, "inability" - to conduct an honest discussion about this case.  You've done the same thing to me, and to others whom you perceive to be on the "other side."

    There is no evidence that Gray attempted to injure himself, none.  There have been countless opinions by various well-respected members of the medical community with expertise in the area of spinal injuries who have stated that the kind of force and the positioning of the head and neck needed to produce such severe injuries is extremely unlikely to have been self-inflicted.  Perhaps you have no interest in such things, getting in the way as it does of your repeated efforts to blame Gray for his injuries.

    You have also shown a remarkable ability to ignore the numerous facts that have been provided, and create your own out of rumor, supposition and conspiracy.  

    You are not adding to the discussion, Chip, you are getting in the way of it.  Given that the way you are going about it verges on, and often crosses over to, trolling, perhaps that is your goal.

    In any event, try reading for comprehension once in a while, and then you won't have to put words in people's mouths to make whatever contorted argument you think makes your point.  Maybe when you move on from middle school to high school, the debate coach can give you a few pointers.

    Parent

    Buy that straw in bulk (none / 0) (#23)
    by Yman on Wed May 06, 2015 at 07:56:58 AM EST
    No one is (or would) make such a silly claim, except someone trying to defeat their own, straw arguments.

    OTOH, they're is absolutely ZERO evidence he did that.

    Parent

    straw arguments??? (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed May 06, 2015 at 10:26:50 AM EST
    straw arguments

    The only straw arguments here are coming from Mosby who appears to need that knife that she won't produce to cut up more straw to prop up her collapsing case.

    Parent

    "Won't" produce? Where are you (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Anne on Wed May 06, 2015 at 11:02:10 AM EST
    getting that?

    If you mean, "won't share with the public," do you have some reason to think that she has any obligation to make it public?  To satisfy your questions?

    From her statement yesterday:

    In a statement released Tuesday afternoon, Mosby said she would not discuss the evidence gathered in her case against the six cops.

    "While the evidence we have obtained through our independent investigation does substantiate the elements of the charges filed, I refuse to litigate this case through the media," Mosby said. "The evidence we have collected cannot ethically be disclosed, relayed, or released to the public before trial."

    Unfortunately, I suspect that while Mosby may have a commitment to not trying this case in the media, those charged may not feel bound by that decision.  And for sure the media isn't going to respect it - they are probably already working their sources and it's going to be nothing by dueling leaks before too long.

    Look, I don't have any problem with the attorneys for the defendants doing whatever they can to mitigate the charges or even get them dismissed - that's their job.  But I don't think you should mistake the request to examine the knife as meaning there is or will be any intent to withhold evidence on the part of Mosby's office.  

    I do agree with PeterG, who has raised the issue of probable cause: did police even have probable cause to conduct the search that resulted in discovery of the knife?  

    Whether the knife is or isn't legal will certainly affect the charges that Gray was falsely arrested, but it doesn't change the fact that Gray went into that wagon alive and came out essentially dead.  

    Parent

    If the knife wasn't important I don't think Mosby (2.00 / 2) (#16)
    by McBain on Tue May 05, 2015 at 10:38:47 PM EST
    would have mentioned it in her speech, but I understand your point.    

    "Do you think the people who took responsibility for Freddie Gray by placing him under arrest should face criminal charges arising out of his injuries?"

    I don't know yet but this is looking more like a civil victory than a criminal one.  

    Parent

    Two arresting officers were charged (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by gadfly on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:20:58 PM EST
    with making an illegal arrest since the knife that Mr. Gray carried was legal in length and not a switchblade - but that turns out not to be true. The blade was spring-loaded - a switchblade.

    So this bit of negligence on the part of the prosecutor puts two innocent cops at risk. What other rush-to-judgement assumptions are affecting the charges? Perhaps the "other paddy wagon witness," being paraded about and identified by the prosecutor's office as Donta Allen, who it turns out, was not the other prisoner riding in the police van.  

    Parent

    This is made up (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:27:25 PM EST
    you do not know this.  There has been a suggestion that it's possble.  Yet to be proven either way.  

    A bit of negligence on your part.

    Parent

    I can't stand it. It's just not going to (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Anne on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:45:21 PM EST
    stop, and every day there's going to be this kind of spurious attack based on conspiracies and facts-that-aren't-facts.

    I wish someone would discover the crack in the universe from which all the stupid is emanating.

    Parent

    It's Not a State Secret... (none / 0) (#49)
    by ScottW714 on Wed May 06, 2015 at 12:57:37 PM EST
    ...what is the lowest common denominator, Fox News.

    I can almost tell when they come out with a new mem in that it's repeated here almost instantaneously by numerous folks.

    The crack is not in the universe, it's in their brains.  They are broken toys that, more or less, all write the exact same thing over and over and over and over.  Like the energizer bunny on a meth binge, speaking gibberish, highly annoying, and won't shut the hell up no matter how many people they bother.

    Parent

    It won't stop (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 01:12:06 PM EST
    i suppose we can point at the stupid and laugh.  Beyond that....

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    "Officer requests to see knife" (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 06, 2015 at 11:15:43 AM EST
    Officer requests to see knife as part of defense in Freddie Gray case

    [...]

    A Baltimore police task force, commissioned to investigate Gray's death, analyzed the knife and determined that it was "spring assisted" and in violation of the city's law.

    [...]

    In a statement Tuesday, Mosby said "the evidence we have obtained through our independent investigation does substantiate the elements of the charges filed."

    Seems to me she must have the law on her side re: the knife.

    Sorry, linkage (none / 0) (#35)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 06, 2015 at 11:16:56 AM EST
    For those of you who find it (none / 0) (#52)
    by Anne on Wed May 06, 2015 at 01:19:28 PM EST
    reasonable to use Freddie Gray's history against him and justify him being treated like a criminal at all times, is turnabout fair play?

    Should Brian Rice's troubled past allow us to draw conclusions about his treatment of Gray and his fitness for duty?

    Former Baltimore SA slams Mosby (none / 0) (#59)
    by McBain on Wed May 06, 2015 at 05:11:05 PM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/pvtmeto

    Page Croyder said Mosby's charges are "Incompetent at Best" and goes on to explain why.

    Her main beef seems to be that Mosby rushed the charges and "didn't use the tools available to her" to investigate.  

    Key & Peele (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 06, 2015 at 05:25:34 PM EST
    Negr@town

    I was going to put this in the open but it seems quite topical.

    and NSFW.

    This is my favorite: (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 06, 2015 at 05:34:50 PM EST
    Key & Peele Racist Zombies.

    Also NSFW.

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