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Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe

By Jeralyn, Section Media
Posted on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 09:01:58 PM EST
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CNN has told Tucker Carlson it will not renew his contract. Crossfire most likely will be "folded into" regular programming. Carlson may go to MSNBC...replacing Deborah Norville. [Link via Poor Man.]

He subbed last week for newscaster Aaron Brown as {CNN CEO Jonathan] Klein wanted to see him in a different role before making a decision about his future. Klein said his views on wanting to change the tone of political coverage were separate from the decision to keep Carlson.

"His career aspirations and our programming needs just don't synch up," Klein said. "He wants to host his own nighttime show and we don't see that in the cards here. Out of respect for him and his talent, we thought it would be best to let him explore opportunities elsewhere."

The age of the politcal scream-fest may be coming to an end.

[Klein] said all of the cable networks, including CNN, have overdosed on programming devoted to arguing over issues. Klein said he wants more substantive programming that is still compelling.

"I doubt that when the president sits down with his advisers they scream at him to bring him up to date on all of the issues," he said. "I don't know why we don't treat the audience with the same respect."

MSNBC had this response:

An MSNBC spokesman had no comment on CNN's decision. "We think Tucker is a great journalist and we're exploring our options for a new 9 p.m. show," said MSNBC's Jeremy Gaines

Update: Blogger Pudentilla called for Carlson's firing after watching him guest host Newsnight last week.

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    Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe | 60 comments (60 topical)
    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#1)
    by Quaker in a Basement on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 09:48:16 PM EST
    Jon Stewart must be so proud!

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 10:10:16 PM EST
    I know what Jon Stewart called him on air that night, many blogs have repeated it. I must disagree. In order to be one, you must have one.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 10:11:54 PM EST
    Best news I've heard in weeks. "I don't know why we don't treat the audience with the same respect." I can only hope they follow through.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#4)
    by Kitt on Wed Jan 05, 2005 at 10:26:49 PM EST
    Oh - this is a very good point: "I know what Jon Stewart called him on air that night, many blogs have repeated it. I must disagree. In order to be one, you must have one." What about Robert Novak?

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 06:32:28 AM EST
    Bill O'Reilly on Fox News has the most popular cable news show. He often tells guests to "Shut up!" 'The age of the politcal scream-fest' is not coming to an end.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:05:11 AM EST
    Well, maybe he can make an occasional appearance on Jon Stewart's show and play the monkey for Jon.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#7)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:39:42 AM EST
    Jon Stewart is a hypocrite. Putting down others for doing exactly as he does; it’s all entertainment. The only difference is Stewart plays at a lighthearted and flippant presentation of current events and analysis. We all got some insight during the crossfire interview. Nothing lighthearted or flippant about it; a simple quarrel between two ideologues.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#8)
    by cp on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:42:13 AM EST
    i say, let's burn him at the stake, just to get in practice. novak is, and always has been, an opportunistic schemer. his are the politics of personal economic opportunism. if that happens to correspond with anyone else's politics, all the better for him.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:55:47 AM EST
    piggle, stewart is A SATIRIST!!! do you not understand what that means??? or how it is different from a supposedly "real news and debate" show? hello? mcfly? S. A. T. I. R. E.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#10)
    by nolo on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:58:10 AM EST
    pigwiggle, the difference between Crossfire and what Jon Stewart does is that the Daily Show is presented as a fake news show. It's satire. As Stewart kept saying to Carlson during Stewart's appearance on Crossfire, "if you want to compare yourselves to a comedy show, be my guest."

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#11)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:01:21 AM EST
    dadler- To thick to read my post? OK, one more time. “Stewart plays at a lighthearted and flippant presentation of current events and analysis.” You can satirize anything, Stewarts politics are clear; incidentally the politics of most here, so I can see why you may sympathize.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#12)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:05:16 AM EST
    Let me help you all out. Satire has frequently (exclusively?) been a tool of political and social commentary. Just because Stewart chose satire as the medium to push his ideology doesn’t give him a free pass.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:11:23 AM EST
    The difference I see between what Stewart and Carlson do for a living. Stewart is trying to be humorous, Carlson does it unintentionally.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:11:38 AM EST
    pigwiggle; the diff between the daily show and crossfire is this: jon stewart has many guests on his show of every political stripe. i have never seen him be anything but honestly trying to understand someone else's point of view - he is very respectful (sometimes to a fault). however, on crossfire, the whole purpose is to get a fight. not a debate, a fight. it's like wwe for the politicians. and the hosts have a reputation for being less than respectful to those who have opposing views. remember when jon stewart (strong democrat) had bob dole on his show? and, surprise! bob dole is funny! and who has a guest commentator on the daily show during the 2000 election? bob dole.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#15)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:18:23 AM EST
    kelite- There is a lot of superfluous stuff on the show, and it is funny. I take issue with his commentary of current events. Does Al Franken get a pass also because he uses humor?

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#16)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:22:55 AM EST
    kelite- To your point about the argumentative nature of crossfire v the humor and respectful interviews on TDS; it’s all entertainment, it seems you prefer your current events with comedy and patty cake interviews, or maybe your comedy with current event and interviews. If the two are unrelated what was Stewart doing on CF?

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#17)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:22:58 AM EST
    pig I'll give you a hint. Its on comedy central.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#18)
    by nolo on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:27:47 AM EST
    pigwiggle, you've either got a tin ear or you're being willfully dense.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:28:03 AM EST
    Well, I believe that Novak is the key here, and Tucker is the sidebar. If you get rid of one, you cancel the show and the other follows out the door. Novak's possible legal troubles will not end in the foreseeable future, and CNN can't hold a show open for him. BTW McLaughlin and his screaming cohorts are still on the air, and Novak used to be one of them--perhaps he and Tucker can make some guest appearances there. Did you know that Eleanor Clift is married to the brother of deceased actor Montgomery Clift?

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:33:15 AM EST
    piggle, satire is ALWAYS political, yes, that's what makes it satire. whether it's aimed at the politics of politics, of class, race, sex, etc. the satirist puts it out there, it's either funny or it isn't, it's either insightful or isn't. but it doesn't pretend to be a straight news/debate show. crossfire pretends to be everything but what it really is: a shallow, soundbite fight -- except for rare occasions when someone like stewart seriously shakes things up a bit. carlson and the like, on the other hand, seek journalistic credibility while performing as partisan monkeys. stewart's job is to get pointed laughs -- whether commentating, doing skits, interviewing, whatever. carlson's job is to get pointed answers. if both shows are "just entertainment" then one of them, the daily show, is the clearly superior and enduring program. and crossfire has failed miserably. generally a sign that one show and its "message" have struck a more resonant chord with the public.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:33:39 AM EST
    Pigglewiggle: What's this "pass" you speak of? The Daily Show and [insert any cable news talk show here] are apples and oranges. The difference between the two is distinct: The Daily Show doesn't pretend to be something it isn't. It's very honest about what it is - it's satire that occasionally deals with serious issues (and people). The problems with the cable news shows are 1) they're presented as sincere attempts at news debate when they're usually nothing more than sensational political wonkery, and more important 2) they're aired on a news outlet which implies an obligation to satisfy some form of journalistic integrity (which they fail at miserably). Being that cable news channels are private enterprises they are free to present the news as they please (and boy does Fox News do that) but at some point there needs to be an acklowedgement that even though the cable outlets are private and at the behest of adverstisers and their bottom line they are also held in the public trust and are doing a disservice by airing shows such as Crossfire and the like. For you to say that Crossfire (and the others) shouldn't be held accountable for failing to preserve the public trust and to lump The Daily Show in with them (which airs on Comedy Central and has no such responsiblity to the public trust) is to confuse, profoundly, the obligation of the news media. Ideally, they'd round up all of the political wonks and give them their own network and leave any network that purports to report the "news" to just that, the news. It would help remove the feeling of deceipt I always get when I watch CNN, MSNBC, etc. (Faux News need not apply since they are so grossly deceiptful in their brand of "journalism").

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#22)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:34:32 AM EST
    SD- “I'll give you a hint. Its on comedy central.” And who would have thought that CC would have hit big with a news/comedy show? What’s your point? nolo- “pigwiggle, you've either got a tin ear or you're being willfully dense.” This kind of crap has me further convinced that Stewart is getting a pass and it is because of folks sympathetic to his obvious political leanings. Or maybe nolo has a remarkably clear and cogent argument following shortly. I won’t hold my breath.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#23)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:43:02 AM EST
    piggle, as for al franken, at this point he's doing a show that seeks jounalistic credibility while sometimes using satire. that's the show, but he is doing a serious political show at heart. and i don't think franken would disagree that he's open to more criticism now than when he was simply doing stuart smalley skits. as for stewart's politics being clear, what is wrong with that? HE'S A COMEDIAN!!! Let me hip you in: in order to be funny you must have A CLEAR POINT OF VIEW. you don't need this to sit and ask "objective" questions, whatever those are. He's a liberal satirist, i don't think you're breaking any ground by claiming a discovery. as for your flip, light-hearted claim about stewart, you're only partly right. sometimes he is, while at other times the humor is much more dark and serious. ever heard of gallows humor? kinda thing that makes comedy and creativity different. ever heard of gallows journalism? didn't think so. humor and creativity and imagination give you MORE FREEDOM to make a point. But they also require an audience of free american spine. You're a natural contrarian, bud, it's hard to hide.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#24)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:49:48 AM EST
    dadler- This was my point; it’s all entertainment. I agree with everything but “carlson and the like, on the other hand, seek journalistic credibility while performing as partisan monkeys.” Folks like these are clearly pundits and as such can vainly seek ‘journalistic credibility’ all they want, though I’m not sure they are. The same misguided criticism is frequently leveled against FOX. FOX is primarily political commentary by partisan pundits of course they are biased, that is after all their job. FOX’s newscasts are a different story. They are, as a whole, little different from the stories carried by the news wires. Ryan- “What's this "pass" you speak of?” He visits another news entertainment show and throws a fit. When it is pointed out that he participates in exactly the same behavior he retreats to ‘but my show is a comedy show, you want to compare yourself to a comedy show?’ Further, I see no problem with punditry followed by new, or news followed by punditry. I have yet to find an unbiased news source, mixing in punditry does little to tarnish the facade of impartiality.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:50:26 AM EST
    pigwiggle; you know, you can be very obtuse sometimes. what is this free pass you're speaking of? did crossfire cease taking itself so seriously suddenly? crossfire invited jon stewart on to discuss his book (political satire). and jon took that opportunity to get on his soap box about shows like crossfire which capitalize on political bloodlust (fight! fight! fight!) while pretending to be a serious news show. personally - i don't care, have your fights. but don't expect me to treat crossfire as some kind of higher level of news. they are on the same level as the daily show - they have just convinced themselves otherwise. jon stewart has a comedy show that satirizes poltics with a liberal slant. and he is unfailingly obvious and honest about that. the crossfire is a show that encourages people to shout insults and party line rhetoric - and they take themselves very seriously. which is dihonest, in my opinion. i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. btw, the patronizing potshot you took at my intelligence was rude and uncalled for (it seems you prefer your current events with comedy and patty cake interviews). disagree with me about jon stewart if you want, but lay off the personal attacks if you want to have an actual debate as opposed to a springer-esque squabble.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#26)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:55:55 AM EST
    “You're a natural contrarian, bud, it's hard to hide.” I like Stewart; I just thought his fit was disingenuous. I’ve said this before but; I’m not contrary for the sake of, and I am more than willing to concede a point when I am wrong. At times I have been overbearing in presenting my viewpoint, and I have apologized. The simple fact is I am extremely critical, even of those I like or respect. I am unwilling to give Stewart a pass on his fit even though I love his show. It was trivial and small, real lame.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#27)
    by Dadler on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 08:58:01 AM EST
    piggle, i just can't agree with analogies like the FOX one. Maybe between FOX and other new stations, but not the daily show. Because, unlike the FOXies and other network flaks, the daily show crew have the ability to be both insightful AND excruciatingly funny. and of course, i laugh at their jokes more than i would at a "right-wing" comedian's jokes -- whoever they are and whatever those jokes might be. and i disagree with comedians and pundits being on the same level in terms of journalistic cred. maybe in the eyes of armchair pundits like us, but not to the general public. come on, these are people on CNN, FOX, MSNBC. they are on shows that people watch TO GET THEIR NEWS!! your average american gets their news from tv and nothing else. to claim the personalities they view on news channels are viewed no differently than those on comedy central, well, i just don't buy it. and i'll say it again. stewart doesn't pretend to be doing "news", while the crossfires of the world are.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#28)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:02:11 AM EST
    kelite- “the patronizing potshot you took at my intelligence was rude and uncalled for” Sorry, I didn’t mean it that way. I was trying to make the point that news is never straight news. Some people like their news with conservative punditry in the style of FOX, I like mine with the punditry of Shields and Brooks from The News Hour. And of course others like theirs with fierce argument like Crossfire and the Factor. Again, sorry.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#29)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:08:10 AM EST
    dadler- I agree, folks should be more sophisticated about their news sources. A couple of months ago I was part of a jury pool. We were required to stand and answer some form question, one of which was a summary of our news sources. After listening to the first 15 folks I was embarrassed to name all the places I get my news, in fact I lied and just said ‘the news wires and the news hour’. But you really can’t be asking to hold the news entertainment shows and pundits responsible for public ignorance.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:10:13 AM EST
    This was my point; it’s all entertainment. Piggle: And the point I'm trying to make is that it's *not* all entertainment. The fact that these shows air on news outlets doesn't allow them the leeway you're giving them. I don't turn to my news channel for entertainment, I turn to Comedy Central. You can't have it both ways without seriously hurting either your journalistic integrity or your ability to entertain. It's cool you can be so detached about this, but the vast majority of people can't. I can't either. When I turn to CNN for news and instead get a screaming hissy fit from James Carville or Tucker Carlson right before a major story about Iraqi prison abuse, it makes me wonder just what in the hell I'm watching. That's the public trust I speak of - something the news outlets seems to be completely ignorant of.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:12:34 AM EST
    But you really can’t be asking to hold the news entertainment shows and pundits responsible for public ignorance. Ugh. You just don't want to see that there is a higher obligation do you?

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#32)
    by desertswine on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:13:01 AM EST
    I,ve watched Crossfire since its inception. They used to have Pat Buchanan and some liberal guy (whose name I forget)who looked like he smoked a lot and was going to drop dead any second. It never had any value or redeeming quality. They never actually debated or discussed anything. All they ever did was to throw insults at one another. No loss.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:21:45 AM EST
    well, i spend around 2-6 hours a day combing the internet for my 'news'. i watch the daily show about once or twice a week, purely for the comedy. and if i were uninformed, and came to the daily show looking for news, i would be extremely confused. it just isn't funny unless you come to the table well-informed, and it certainly doesn't inform you all by itself. thanks for the apology, pigwiggle - this is an attempt to explain a bit about why i took offense. pretty much every politician is full of crap, taking money from some special interest group, having an affair or doing drugs or somehow screwing us in some nasty selfish way. there are no honest politicians. lobbyist groups, charitable organizations, churches, community leaders, pro athletes, olympians, musicians, all celebrities ... all the same. it is increasingly difficult to be surprised or shocked at the behavior of those we hold in high regard. my personal hero is dan wilson (plays for the mariners) but i am just waiting for the day he beats up his wife, gets a dui, tests positive for steroids, takes a swipe at a fan, dumps the team he's been with for the last 14 years for a few more millions.... life sucks, and after learning all about it all day long, i like to laugh. gallows humor, someone said. now, jon stewart does that for me. he's partisan without being shrill or impossible to talk to (most of the time) and he is never above taking shots at the democrats, himself, or the democrats 'sacred cows'. i mean, do you remember how merciless he was with clinton? anyway, i don't think that makes me less smart. i think crossfire, with it's hyperbole and bloodlust is not fun and is not informative. to me, it's the difference between 'the fool' performing for the kind and the slaves duking it out in the roman colliseum for ceasar.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:25:43 AM EST
    excellent point, ryan. as jon said, the show that leads into the daily show is puppets making crank calls (actually, now i think it's reno 911). if you can confuse comedy central with a news channel, then you need more help than any chow can offer.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#35)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:25:45 AM EST
    “Ugh. You just don't want to see that there is a higher obligation do you?” Soon to follow, a grand scheme; a grand and expensive liberty robbing scheme. Look, this is what people want. After all, they are paying the bill. I like The News Hour, few else do and that’s why they beg for money at every turn. If objective news without punditry were that important to folks it would be cheap and readily available.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#36)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:29:26 AM EST
    Speaking of a yelling match and Buchanan, anyone here watch the McLaughlin group? Pure entertainment.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#37)
    by desertswine on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:35:59 AM EST
    Yes, I've seen McLaughlin. Generally a waste of time but sometimes McLaughlin is funny. They have that shrill liberal woman (whose name I forget) and a fat Nazi who wears cheap suits and looks like Jabba the Hut.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:47:02 AM EST
    Speaking of McLaughlin group, anyone ever see the old SNL sketch spoofing it. Dana Carvey did a mean McLaughlin. You guys stumbled on a good point, 99% of the stuff peddled as news IS entertainment. The Daily Show doesn't pretend to be news, others do. Now whether that is the news channel's fault for being misleading, or the public's fault for being gullible and not seing broadcast news as the for-profit industry it is, that is the question. As for me, unless I really like the guest, I try to stay away from the screaming political hack shows, I go to PBS or BBC. I watch Daily Show often for the laughs, the hack shows for the unintentional comedy factor only while channel surfing. Carlson had a high unintentional comedy batting average compared to others. Pig, you are right about PBS, they would fall into the 1% of "real, relatively unbiased" US TV news in my book.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#39)
    by nolo on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:51:10 AM EST
    The Daily Show doesn't pretend to be news, others do. There's the remarkably clear and cogent argument. Glad you didn't hold your breath.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:57:32 AM EST
    Now whether that is the news channel's fault for being misleading Bingo. They consistently pass themselves off and advertise as hard-hitting, serious journalists - they exploit tragedy to advertise their brand of news reporting and they consistently tell us that their network is the only place to get the "real story". If this isn't misleading I don't know what is. And while I would love it if everyone was as detached Pigglewiggle is about it, the fact is that he's part of an extremely small minority of viewers. Good for him, I say, but bad for the majority of America.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#41)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 09:58:29 AM EST
    nolo- “There's the remarkably clear and cogent argument. Glad you didn't hold your breath.” I challenge you to find a pundit that has presented argument as news. I am amazed that folks would even consider arguing pundits news; the whole idea is ridiculous.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#42)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 10:13:03 AM EST
    I challenge you to find a pundit that has presented argument as news. very clever shift in the argument, you are really good at subtly moving the goal posts. Ryan had a good take on it They consistently pass themselves off and advertise as hard-hitting, serious journalists Thats exactly what they do. They discuss the hot news topics of the day or week and then provide their opinions. It is done in a very serious way so that the average person is going to see it as a serious show. What gets perceived as news vs opinion will depend on the sophistication of the viewer.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#43)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 10:23:05 AM EST
    SD- “I challenge you to find a pundit that has presented argument as news. very clever shift in the argument, you are really good at subtly moving the goal posts.’ That was in response to the claim ‘The Daily Show doesn't pretend to be news, others do.’ Try and keep up, I know things are moving fast around here. “Thats exactly what they do. They discuss the hot news topics of the day or week and then provide their opinions.” That is what political pundits do; this just in from SD, carpenters frame houses. Shocking! “It is done in a very serious way so that the average person is going to see it as a serious show. What gets perceived as news vs opinion will depend on the sophistication of the viewer.” Many take discussion of current events very seriously, i.e. everyone who posts here. Perhaps we should get an M chip for TVs also. When a moron is watching things like ‘caution, this is commentary and opinion’ can scroll across the screen.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#44)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 10:36:48 AM EST
    hey pig - you get testy when your tactics get exposed.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#45)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 10:50:35 AM EST
    “hey pig - you get testy when your tactics get exposed.” I have no tactics, I was simply responding to another’s post. But why not take the opportunity to point out one of yours? This is a typical one from you; level some accusation i.e. ‘moving goalposts’ and when a refutation is offered or an example is asked for, ignore it and repeat the accusation again. Truly lame, but understandable if all you have is feeble unsubstantiated rhetoric.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#46)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 10:54:58 AM EST
    Thats not accurate and you know it. Yeah and when I ask you to back up your statements you just ignore the post. you are funny, an intelligent PPJ. ROTFLMAO

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 10:58:17 AM EST
    I challenge you to find a pundit that has presented argument as news. I am amazed that folks would even consider arguing pundits news; the whole idea is ridiculous. really? compare the websites of the daily show and crossfire. i particularly enjoy the contrast between the daily show's plug for it's 'fake headlines' and crossfire's plug for 'cutting edge debates focusing on daily news events'.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#48)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:07:51 AM EST
    SD- “That’s not accurate and you know it.” Sure it is, and I’ll parse the previous thread to show it. In the entire thread I’ve been claiming that Stewart is no different from any other pundit and it was disingenuous for him to berate his colleagues. Another poster claimed pundits pass their commentary off as news, where Stewart does not. I challenged them to provide and example. In you come claiming I have now ‘set a new goal post’. I explained why the challenge was leveled and where it had come from, so that you can see for yourself there was no ‘changing goalposts’. And your response to my explanation; ‘hey pig - you get testy when your tactics get exposed.’ Indicating, again, that I was engaged in the tactics of ‘shifting goalposts’. And what in the world is ROTFLMAO?

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#49)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:13:43 AM EST
    kelite- They (CF) are very far from claiming they are presenting news. The political ideology of the participants is noted, also that they will be debating the social impact of daily news events. Straight forward, two from the left and two from the right debating politics; it’s all there.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:17:03 AM EST
    i'm sure you're right pigwiggle. as i said before, let's agree to disagree.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#51)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 11:52:15 AM EST
    pig, I've had 3 long discussions with you, in every one its around and around, using vague terms like "bread and butter", moving the goal posts, trying to figure our what you really mean by the words you use or redefining what the "real" question is. There are many straw men. Each one has ended up being a waste of time. means: rolling on the floor laughing my a** off.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 12:30:29 PM EST
    We shall endeavour to use our powers only for good.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 12:41:04 PM EST
    pig..I would argue the fact that Crossfire (and its pundits) airs on an all news channel is enough of an implication that it is meant to be news. The Daily Show airing on an all comedy channel implies it is comedy, etc...if you get my point. I agree w/ you 100% that all these pundit shows have nothing to do with journalism, and anyone who thinks they do is mighty gullible. But these programs do mislead in that they express more opinion than fact on an "all news network".

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#55)
    by pigwiggle on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 01:48:10 PM EST
    I think news and punditry are a natural match, and are appropriately paired on a news network. I get a charge out of Shields and Brooks debating the ramifications of the news I just watched. News is easy to identify, it’s simply a collection of facts. Likewise opinion is easy to identify. Confusing the two is like confusing art with an art critic. I submit that people watch the channels they do because they see people parroting their own opinions. For every FOX there is a Pacifica. The only problem I can see is when a station’s ideology leads them air news from dubious sources, Rather anyone? But situations like that are inevitably self correcting. And perhaps a smaller problem is the bias of omission. This is biased news, and is a whole other kettle of fish.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 03:22:01 PM EST
    In all this debate about are pundits trying to pass themself off as reporting news, I think news is the wrong word. I think the word we are looking for is journalists. Do they try to pass themself off as journalists. I think that pundits want to be taken seriously as people who have some sort of superior understanding and analysis of the news. They would be offended if you said they were just silly entertainment. I don't think Jon Stewart cares if you think he is entertainment. Leno and Letterman make political jokes in their monologues, but I don't think many Americans put them on a par with pundits in their news analysis. If the people on crossfire were upfront that they are no better than Jay Leno, then we wouldn't bother criticizing them.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#57)
    by cp on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 06:08:22 PM EST
    pig, i've read all the back and forth posts on the "daily show v crossfire" issue. either you are incredibly stupid, or being purposely obtuse. i'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are being purposeful. the distinction between the two is transparently obvious, as are you: the daily show is a comedy show, period. jon stewart, the rest of the cast and the writers make no pretense of being a real "news" show. they, however, as have many comedians before them, use what's in the paper as their foils. crossfire and its ilk assert that they are serious news programs, discussing serious issues of the day, in a serious manner. as stewart pointed out, his show is preceded by a show starring monkeys. wait a minute, that could've been crossfire, now that i think about it.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jan 06, 2005 at 07:33:29 PM EST
    The age of the politcal scream-fest may be coming to an end. With all due respect, Talk Left, you cannot seriously believe that. When I first visited Talk Left, I was completely unaware of your celebrity status only to discover it later watching Ms. Merritt get gang tackled by a pack of rabid attack dogs on Fox News. The public's psychological and sociological responses to the stimuli provided by these dressed up theatrics are calculated with intent. The conservative corporate media is attempting to culturally re-engineer our society while capitalizing on the resultant polarization in the process. It is going to get worse, not better. For every FOX there is a Pacifica. The only problem I can see is when a station’s ideology leads them air news from dubious sources, Rather anyone? But situations like that are inevitably self correcting. And perhaps a smaller problem is the bias of omission. This is biased news, and is a whole other kettle of fish. You're comparing a privately sponsored group of underground peace activists to a corporate funded monolith of propaganda? May your Aristocratic dream of Libertarian serfdom never come to pass. Don't confuse Pig with PPJ, Soccerdad. Milton Friedmans are far more dangerous than George Wallaces because they are allowed farther inside the Beltway's innermost circles and the halls of cash hungry American Academia. They provide just enough plausible deniability to make Neoconservative Thugs look like principled visionaries.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 09:11:00 AM EST
    TA- “You're comparing a privately sponsored group of underground peace activists to a corporate funded monolith of propaganda?” Yes, I am. And the crap I hear coming out of Pacifica isn’t any less propaganda than the punditry of Hannity and his ilk. The difference is most folks would rather pay for garbage on FOX than your brand of conspiratorial anti-capitalist news. Underground? Bah! Perhaps, irrelivant. “They provide just enough plausible deniability to make Neoconservative Thugs look like principled visionaries.” Save the theatrics and I’ll save the comparisons to Mao, Pol Pot, et al. cp- “crossfire and its ilk assert that they are serious news programs,” Take a look at their website. It is absolutely clear that they are all about debating the news. I don’t care if it is done in a serious way or as a goof. Commentary is commentary, even more so when done by fairly intelligent ideologues. I have a hard time believing you read the thread. You raised exactly the points others have; points I have addressed. If you think my refutations of those points were suspect you should address those in place of restating verbatim previous posts.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#60)
    by pax on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 11:56:58 AM EST
    Send Novak to Fox News...as a janitor to wipe up after Hannity. Is it just me or have the Crossfire/Hardball programs becoming as innane as the reality shows? The more fair and balanced they get, the more blood the people in the seats want to see. I thought Mr. Ed made more sense.

    Re: Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jan 07, 2005 at 11:17:53 PM EST
    Assuming the above response is from Pig... I compared you to an American philosopher economist and you in turn infer a comparison between my commentary and Pol Pot? That is about as good a comparison as your first one -- pathetic. And you were faculty at a University, eh?

    Crossfire and Tucker Carlson Get the Axe | 60 comments (60 topical)