Sunday Night Open Thread

Time for a new open thread. Here it is, all topics welcome.

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    What's funnier about this (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:05:52 PM EST
    "You seemed to indicate that as president, you wouldn't necessarily obey court rulings, even the Supreme Court," Fox News host Chris Wallace pointed out during an interview on Sunday. "We have operated under the principle of judicial review since the Marbury v. Madison case in 1803."

    According to the GOP candidate, the United States would be operating under "judicial supremacy" instead of judicial review if bans on same-sex marriage were to be struck down.

    "Presidents have understood that the Supreme Court cannot make a law, they cannot make it, the legislature has to make it, the executive branch has to sign it and enforce it," Huckabee said. "And the notion that the Supreme Court comes up with the ruling and that automatically subjects the two other branches to following it defies everything there is about the three equal branches of government."

    "The Supreme Court is not the supreme branch," he added. "And for God's sake, it's not the Supreme Being."

    Huckabee wondered what would happen if the Supreme Court ruled on "who was going to be the next president."

    Huckleberrys laughable naked pandering or the bit about what would happen IF the court ruled on who would be the next president

    Day-um, I coulda sworn that already happened.

    On the subject of FOX news (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:07:56 PM EST
    Economist Bruce Bartlett, a former adviser to both Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, warned over the weekend that Fox News had damaged the Republican Party by creating a bubble for conservatives to brainwash themselves.

    In his paper "How Fox News Changed American Media and Political Dynamics" published earlier this month, Bartlett theorized that watching the network was essentially "self-brainwashing" for viewers, making them believe that the United States was a more conservative nation than it actually was. And so the Republican Party had responded by running radical conservatives that representative Fox News viewers, but not the true state of the electorate.

    "Many conservatives live in a bubble where they watch only Fox News on television, they listen only to conservative talk radio -- Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, many of the same people," Bartlett told CNN's Brian Stelter on Sunday. "When they go onto the Internet, they look at conservative websites like National Review, Newsmax, World Net Daily."

    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:17:58 PM EST
    and you see examples of it everyday, on blogs, people you know and in other ways. The funniest times are when they start shouting stuff out in public places and think everyone agrees with them.

    These candidates like Huckabee are blowing themselves up because they reside in a bubble. Jeb Bush says Iraq wasn't a mistake because he resides in that bubble. Huckabee defends the Druggars because it is what the bubble people want to hear.

    Hysterically today they all had a meltdown because of TPP and not because it's free trade but because it's giving "the dictator" more powers.

    Hmm, is Fox going to change their ways or has it just been too lucrative to keep fleecing the rubes? I say they are going to keep fleecing the rubes until they go off the air.


    Love the term (none / 0) (#17)
    by smott on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:41:59 AM EST
    "Bubble people"...perfect.

    It's Memorial Day (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:28:06 PM EST
    And my thoughts turn to Dick and Knudson and Worley and Montgomery and to all the others.

    I have not forgotten.

    May God's Grace cover you and may you rest in peace.

    Many in my HS class (none / 0) (#36)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:36:26 PM EST
    ...served in Vietnam.  My very good friend and fellow National Merit Scholar was a Marine lieutenant leading combat patrols.

    But not one member of my class died there.

    One returned to civilian life, only to die a few months later while fishing, when a wave swept him off a rock.

    Go figure.


    Have any of them experienced grief (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:39:22 PM EST
    Or PTSD symptoms watching the run up to the Iraq War or experiencing it as a civilian stateside Repack?

    My military service (none / 0) (#47)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:07:00 PM EST
    ...was not in harm's way.  Luck of the draw, because I was a draftee in 1966 and had no say in where I was sent, which turned out to be Texas and Arizona.

    Of course I have contemporaries and friends from my high school class who suffered a lot more than I did.

    The run-up to Iraq was not much different from the run-up to Vietnam.  We were going to "save" some poor people who sat on a lot of oil, from some Evil Empire.


    There was a front page article (none / 0) (#48)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:12:20 PM EST
    in the LAT around the time of the Iraq invasion that reported a very high % of WWII vets then were against said invasion, FWIW.

    Memorial Day (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:57:27 PM EST
    is not about why they fought and died.

    It is a day of memories, of tears and thoughts of what might have been by those who loved and who were loved. For those not involved a respectful silence seems approiate.

    There are no good wars. The dead don't argue about what a President said or make claims of who lied. They lie still and quiet. Their eternity has started.

    Tomorrow is time enough for politics about the wars.

    Politicing. (none / 0) (#72)
    by lentinel on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:29:35 PM EST
    Memorial Day is not about why they fought and died. Tomorrow is time enough for politics about the wars.

    So you say.
    But what you wrote is a political statement.

    It is telling us that we should shut up and grieve, and not talk about those responsible for their needless deaths.

    You add, "The dead don't argue about what a President said or make claims of who lied." So we shouldn't either is the gist I gather.

    You may believe that.
    Your thought might even have merit, although I disagree strongly with it.

    But it is political.


    VOX (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:43:07 PM EST
    It's time we have a holiday to honor those who try to stop wars too

    Memorial Day and Veteran's Day often get equated, but there is an essential distinction between the two. Veteran's Day honors all who have served the American military in wars. Memorial Day honors those who've perished. It's an annual reminder that wars have grave human costs, which must be both recognized and minimized.

    Those costs are not inevitable. We ought to also set aside time to remember those throughout American history who have tried hardest to reduce them, to prevent unnecessary loss of life both American and foreign: war resisters.


    Other countries have started to recognize this and honor their war resisters accordingly. A memorial in Glasgow, Scotland -- a hotbed of British antiwar sentiment during World War I -- commemorates "those who opposed World War One in order to challenge the purpose of the war and the waste of lives." Monuments in Ypres, Belgium and Alrewas, England honor those World War I soldiers who, due both to disillusionment and sheer terror, deserted rather than continue killing in an unjust war. An official monument to Austrian deserters of World War II was unveiled in Vienna last year.

    Perhaps we can hold it in a green green field (2.00 / 1) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:01:19 AM EST
    with a lemon aide stream with Unicorns gambling in the glades.

    Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay-and claims a halo for his dishonesty."

    ― Robert Heinlein

    "Gambling" unicorns? (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Anne on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:26:44 AM EST
    What's their game - 5-card stud, blackjack?  

    And I can't even address "lemon aide" stream...


    If the unicorns are gambling (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 10:25:51 AM EST
    best not to know what the fairies are doing.  In the glades.

    Under (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 26, 2015 at 10:29:55 AM EST
    "marmalade skies" no doubt.

    Unicorns don't play poker (none / 0) (#105)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:27:44 PM EST
    they play baccarat.

    et al (none / 0) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:55:23 PM EST
    Glad you enjoyed my whopper of a typo... spell checkers aren't always your friend...

    So I will go galloping over to my Desktop and recopy:

    Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accept the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay-and claims a halo for his dishonesty."

     Robert Heinlein

    If the shoe fits, wear it.

    And the hit dog always barks.


    If you know that (none / 0) (#114)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:19:02 PM EST
    Glad you enjoyed my whopper of a typo... spell checkers aren't always your friend..

    perhaps you might pay more attention to what you're writing instead of just banging things out in the future.

    Oh, and you realize that

    Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

    don't you?


    Not surprisingly, Heinlein (none / 0) (#121)
    by jondee on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:46:53 PM EST
    never fought in a war and neither did you.

    From where you and he sit, the whole thing is still an utter fantasy event and experience.

    In your case probably born from watching Patton and The Longest Day on dvd too many times.


    Heinlein served and was discharged; (none / 0) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:35:34 PM EST
    I served and was discharged.

    I'll make sure to tell everyone's family who died during the cold war that they can go dig them because they ain't dead.

    That is if they can find the bodies.

    What's your story?

    Heinlein's experience in the U.S. Navy exerted a strong influence on his character and writing. Heinlein graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, in 1929 with a B.S. degree in naval engineering, and he served as an officer in the Navy. He was assigned to the new aircraft carrier USS Lexington in 1931, where he worked in radio communications, then in its earlier phases, with the carrier's aircraft. The captain of this carrier was Ernest J. King, who later served as the Chief of Naval Operations and Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Fleet during World War II. Heinlein was frequently interviewed during his later years by military historians who asked him about Captain King and his service as the commander of the U.S. Navy's first modern aircraft carrier.
    Heinlein also served aboard the destroyer USS Roper in 1933 and 1934, reaching the rank of lieutenant. His brother, Lawrence Heinlein, served in the U.S. Army, the U.S. Air Force, and the Missouri National Guard, and he rose to the rank of major general in the National Guard.[13]
    In 1929, Heinlein married Elinor Curry of Kansas City in Los Angeles,[14] but their marriage lasted for only about a year.[2] His second marriage in 1932 to Leslyn MacDonald (1904-1981) lasted for 15 years. MacDonald was a political radical, and Isaac Asimov later recalled that Heinlein was, as was she, "a flaming liberal".[15]
    In 1934, Heinlein was discharged from the Navy due to pulmonary tuberculosis. During a lengthy hospitalization, he developed a design for a waterbed.[16]



    Your problem is this fixation (none / 0) (#131)
    by jondee on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:51:46 PM EST
    on that gloss-on-reality which is the word "served".

    I don't see how you ladling out mashed potatoes in the mess hall makes you a more valuable asset to the nation than a truly good teacher, researcher, nurse, doctor, counselor, parent etc etc

    Truly good ones have ALWAYS been in very short supply, and really do "seve" this country -- unlike the young cannon fodder that your ilk claims to "support"; only when they're being blown to bits in your stead.

    Chest-thumping chickenhawk blather has never served anyone but the other and better-connected chickenhawks.


    The difference between is I volunteered (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:56:43 PM EST
    to be one.

    your ilk claims to "support"; only when they're being blown to bits in your stead.

    That you didn't is your business but don't be jealous of the families and friends of the dead having their Memorial Day.


    If you're an example (none / 0) (#136)
    by jondee on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:00:29 PM EST
    then I'm not jealous.

    And, by-the-way, a person would have to be sick to be "jealous" of any family that's lost brave young men and women like that.


    You volunteered to fly jets (none / 0) (#140)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:14:34 PM EST
    in the service of your country, not to serve in the Army Corp of Engineers or as an infantryman or many positions in the military that are certainly less glamorous or prestigious than what you did do.

    Do keep puffing yourself up, it makes you sound so patriotic.


    Mordiggian please don't make things up (none / 0) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:36:00 PM EST
    I have never said anything about my service except:

    I served 10 years in Naval Aviation.

    And I am sure all the families of those pilots killed in various ways during the Cold War are happy to know they aren't dead.

    Do you have any idea how disgusting your comment is?


    Running (none / 0) (#182)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:46:41 PM EST
    low on straw, Jim lobs an old fashioned non sequitur:
    And I am sure all the families of those pilots killed in various ways during the Cold War are happy to know they aren't dead.

    I served in the Corps of Engineers (none / 0) (#189)
    by scribe on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:25:22 PM EST
    It might not have been "glamorous" - whatever the f*ck you mean by that - but it sure as hell was dangerous, even in peacetime.  And difficult.

    And, thankfully, we did not go to war with the Warsaw Pact.  Had it come while I was in uniform, I know where I would have died, likely in the flash of a nuke, hard against the old Inter-German Border.

    You need to stuff a sock in your barking about self-puffery or whatever it is.  You impress me as the kind of person who last saw the inside of a uniform in Cub Scouts.


    No, what it was was a reminder to everyone (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:58:25 AM EST
    that we can afford a day in which politics is left aside.

    There are 364 other days with 24 hours each in which we can argue politics about the war.

    That you disagree is not surprising.


    Like We Need Another Republican Clown... (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 11:05:06 AM EST
    ...telling us how we should behave.  

    I for one do not need reminding, from a guy who loves war that the people his politics sent to the front line, need honoring.  And I sure as hell don't need that same idiot quoting some idiotic non-sense about pacifism the day after he declares we should honor the dead who died for his political non-pacifism.

    Some of us can actually honor the dead and think and converse about politics in a single day, and no one is obligated to adhere to your made-up non-sense posted on a political blog.

    In other words, stuff you hypocrisy under the very rock you crawled out from under, right their with promoting war crimes and the killing of children.


    Yeah, why is it that politics is all (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Anne on Tue May 26, 2015 at 11:57:48 AM EST
    well and good when manipulating us into wars, but we're not supposed to think about that when it comes time to honor the men and women who died for all that politics?

    And before jim jumps in here on a gambling unicorn, let me just say that I don't think it demeans or dishonors the life of anyone who died in service to his or her country to acknowledge that it may have been a life lost for the wrong reasons, or never had to happen at all.

    It just seems to me that when we don't acknowledge the insanity or duplicity of leaders who make these decisions, when we allow ourselves to forget the almost cavalier way our leaders put the military's lives on the line, we come closer to ensuring that it will happen again and again and again.

    I'm sick of all the death, and sickened at how many innocent lives we've taken in service to the massive egos and inflated importance of a lot of paper-pushers for whom war is an academic exercise and a substitute for real courage and genuine character.


    It's Very Odd Anne... (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:01:49 PM EST
    ...that if someone dies while on the job, we spend a lot of effort in understanding why they died, and hopefully preventing it in the future.

    When someone or ~16k die while on the job in a war, a lot of people want to throw a flag at the problem and call them heroes, then get their undies in a bunch when someone suggests they may not have had to die to begin with.

    The only people dishonoring their deaths are the ones insisting that they had to die, not the ones who want to ensure another group isn't sent to the front lines because _____.  

    Fill in whatever the republican excuse du jour is for Iraq.  Because to date, there have been at least 10 reasons and none of them pass what I think most of us would consider to be a valid reason to go to war in the Middle East.

    I still do not know why we invaded Iraq, and that to me is dishonoring living human beings who died for reasons most of us still do not know.

    I know what Jim will say, what republicans in general say.  Intelligence, blah, blah, blah... But why did they really go it, why did they fix the intelligence, why was war predetermined by GWB ?  I want the question Cindy Sheehan posed, answered honestly.  

    That to me is how you honor the dead, stating the truth about why they died, not the political BS that they have flung out since day one.


    Yesterday (none / 0) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:12:14 PM EST
    it was apparently "big" news that Woodward said W. had "doubts" there were WMDs in Iraq. Conservatives were touting this as some sort of proof that Bush didn't lie but actually it makes it WORSE because he sure didn't let the rest of us know about these "doubts" and went ahead with a foreign policy disaster. It actually bolsters the case that Bush lied.

    And frankly I don't know why Republicans continue to make excuse after excuse for that joker.


    GA, of course he had doubts (none / 0) (#183)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:49:18 PM EST
    All leaders have doubts when they launch a military operation.

    But they don't send people in harms way saying, "Well, I'm not 100% sure...I'm 90% sure...No, make that 94% sure that there may be..well, that's not right... I guess I'm okay and you're okay so...."


    Pure apologia (none / 0) (#193)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:45:38 PM EST
    And now you're twisting yourself into a pretzel to justify a disaster.

    Yes, I know everything you are going to say already. It's the same thing all the creepy bubble people say these days. You always can tell a conservative by what they say. They've all got some kind of freakish group think thing going on where everybody says the same thing over and over.


    There are some commentators here (none / 0) (#103)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:08:11 PM EST
    who probably belong to the 101st Keyboardists.  

    They risk carpal tunnel syndrome or worse when serving their country on a daily basis.  Don't forget about their efforts as well, Anne.


    One is for sure (none / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:59:48 PM EST
    you didn't serve.

    In the 101st? (none / 0) (#113)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:15:10 PM EST
    You are correct.

    And if you're going to go into a snit, please remember that JM didn't serve, but somehow I don't think you'll ever bring that up here as a strike against her.

    And lets face it, when you served in peacetime in Naval Aviation, you got a lot of privileges and perks that wouldn't have been available to you as a civilian pilot, even as a test pilot, except perhaps for the pay being less in the service than in the private sector.

    You weren't slogging it out as a quartermaster in some obscure military base, you had a risky but enjoyable profession that gave you greater prestige than in the civilian world as well.

    My mother used to say that everything has a price.

    You would have us believe that you paid yours for nothing in return but your paycheck and a sense of doing your duty, and that I, having not paid, deserve the full force of your scorn.

    That's not to downgrade your service, but to keep you from downgrading others like myself who didn't serve, as is the case with many commentators here.


    Not to Get In the Middle of Your... (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:34:10 PM EST
    ...and Jim affairs, but so the F what, I served, what does that prove ?  

    Jim acts like serving is some sort of noble deed that not anyone can do.  Anyone can, I was also a mechanic, worked on my dad's farm, and now I do taxes.  All just jobs, some more dangerous than other, and for me, working on the farm was far more dangerous than 'Naval Aviation'.  I broke my leg when I was 5 on a tractor.

    I worked on the flight deck of an helicopter carrier. This exact one.  I was blue and yellow shirts, you can see them in the photo doing a FOD walk(looking for debris).

    My largest and reoccurring injury was hitting my head because I am 6'4".  Managed to knock myself out twice.  But I did what every other kid did, get drunk just about every night, visit the local whorehouses, spent every penny I made, and begrudgingly do the jobs we were hired to do, which was signaling and moving aircraft, and painting the ship.  Over and over and over again and again.  It was not some mythic function that transformed me into some patriot ahole who throws his service around when he decides to throw a tantrum.  I did what the guys you see ion the tarmac at an airport do.

    I like most of the kids was there to earn money for college, which I did, as did most kids my age.  I have 12 medals, none of which I specifically earned, all given to everyone on the ship or in the military, depending on the award.

    Jim won't even divulge what he actually did because he thinks we will make fun of him.  I can only imagine how insignificant that position must have been for Jim not to use it here as some weapon that proves he know more about war than everyone else, including people like me who have similar military credentials.

    I am proud of my service, but I served when I was 18 and I can promise that it gave me less insight into the workings of military in regards to war than if I was a civilian.  They don't especially like keeping people they expect to give up there lives, in on the BS coming from actual decision makers or the politics.

    It's simple, they tell you what to do, you either do it or my case, go see the captain.  They don't give a F what you think about any of it.  

    Much like Jim does with what he actually did in the military.  And for the record, although I was in the Navy and I worked in aviation(the flight deck), no one ever referred to us as Naval Aviation specifically.  My official title, Airman, from first class to petty officer and back down, but always just an Airman as the precursor.  I don't have one document that states that I ever worked in Naval Aviation and trust me I have a lot of documentation.


    I rest my case (2.00 / 1) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:53:31 PM EST
    All just jobs, some more dangerous than other, and for me, working on the farm was far more dangerous than 'Naval Aviation'.  I broke my leg when I was 5 on a tractor.

    And you worked on the flight deck??



    I Did... (5.00 / 4) (#143)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:28:50 PM EST
    ...and I will post pics of me on that flight deck in my blue and yellow shirts if you will post pictures of you in 'Naval Aviation'  I have hundreds if not thousands of pics of me working on the flight deck or some other part of my home at the time, the USS Saipan.

    Lot of big talk from a man scared to tell people what he really did.  I think the term is chickenhawk, you know the guys who talk though, like you, but when push comes to shove, they can't ever produce, again, like you.

    I'm not scared to tell people what I did, nor am I scared to prove it.  So Mr Chickenhawk, what's it going to be ?


    Don't be picking on the busboy (none / 0) (#146)
    by CoralGables on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:41:50 PM EST
    at the Pensacola Naval Air Station.

    You (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:54:57 PM EST
    can't touch Jim, he is deep into his Daniel in the Lions Den fantasy, again.

    Really?? You will post pictures? (none / 0) (#156)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:49:43 PM EST
    I am over whelmed with anticipation.

    Oh, you mean in your non dangerous job on the flight deck...instead of that dangerous job  of chopping corn on the farm..


    And if you actually worked on the flight deck during flight ops my hat is off to you because that is one dangerous job and place to be.

    Carrier Flight Deck - One of the Most Dangerous Jobs in the World?

    And here's a site that will help you understand a bit about Naval Aviation.

    So here's to you. You should go over to the Naval Aviation museum at Pensacola. Super interesting.

    And no. I have said the same thing for years and years. No more. No less.

    I spent ten years in Naval Aviation.


    10 years! (none / 0) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:55:32 PM EST
    surely there is a photo.

    Maybe jim means (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Anne on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:16:36 PM EST
    "navel" aviation, and after 10 years, he gave up trying to figure out how to turn his bellybutton into a flying device.

    Lord, I am so sick of the one-two punch of my-service-is-better-than-your-service, with its accompanying I'm-more-of-a-patriot-than-you-are.

    jim may feel like "Earl" Flynn fighting the Spaniards (I'm getting a sense of Walter Mitty here), but the rest of us feel like Vern swatting flies.


    Saw Earl in Nashville once (none / 0) (#168)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:18:48 PM EST
    with his brother Buck.

    I think from the evidence, Jim is a hero (none / 0) (#175)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 06:36:02 PM EST
    at least in his own mind.  He stated once here his mission was to state the truth, at whatever cost it may entaill.

    He reminds me of this gentleman here at the 3 minute mark, who also engaged in sword play with those perfidious Spaniards.(Link NSFW)


    Mordiggian, what ever I am I served and (none / 0) (#180)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:42:58 PM EST
    you did not.

    That won't change no matter how much you cry and whine.


    Anne, since your home city of Baltimore (none / 0) (#181)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:44:53 PM EST
    had 29 shootings and 9 deaths over the weekend, a lot people must have felt someone one wasn't serving them.

    I guess the police are still on a "Stand Down" mode.


    What does this have to do with (none / 0) (#188)
    by Anne on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:12:49 PM EST
    anything, jim?  

    Jesus, next you'll be yelling at all of us to get off your lawn...


    He was head busboy (none / 0) (#169)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:19:26 PM EST
    By the end of his service.

    There are photos (none / 0) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:41:25 PM EST
    but they are shared with friends.

    Not people I wouldn't have a beer with, much less share intimate views of my life.

    BTW - If you don't know, you're on that list.


    How very (none / 0) (#184)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:54:33 PM EST

    You rest what case? (none / 0) (#134)
    by jondee on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:55:59 PM EST
    The one he carries all his nonsense, (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by Anne on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:09:38 PM EST
    grudges, anger, mangled facts, outright fiction, and prejudice in.

    He has to rest it; it's mighty heavy.


    No... (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by lentinel on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:04:53 PM EST
    for some reason you think that you have the right, or even the duty, to tell everyone else what they can say and when they can say it.

    It is an elitist position.
    A political one.

    In my opinion, it is a political position that does a disservice to those whose lives were sacrificed by an uncaring and duplicitous cabal of crooks.

    In addition, I think that the position you take encourages those in power to feel that they can do what they want, kill whomever they choose, sacrifice anyone they wish, and then don a long coat once a year, look sad, and tell us to shut up and move on.

    I don't buy it.


    Why just limit it to one day? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:29:44 AM EST
    George Washington was against what were then called factions in American political life.  Shouldn't we suspend talking about politics on his birthday, because he didn't believe in political parties?

    Same thing for the 4th of July.  Shouldn't we put petty politics aside on that day to celebrate the beginning of the American Republic?  And what about Thanksgiving as well?

    I trust you see my point.  But thanks for trying to play table captain on what speech people should refrain from in honor of those who served their country.  What could be more American, than to honor them by placing voluntary limits on free speech?

    I trust you know see my point.

    And since today isn't Memorial Day, I'll end with this:


    Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
    Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
    Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
    And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
    Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
    But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
    Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
    Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
    Gas!  Gas! Quick, boys! - An ecstasy of fumbling,
    Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
    But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
    And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.... .
    Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
    As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
    In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
    He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
    If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
    Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
    And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
    His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
    If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
    Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
    Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
    Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
    My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
    To children ardent for some desperate glory,
    The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
    Pro patria mori.

    Keep in mind, btw, that this was somebody who fought in WWI, not one of those pacificists you claim are arrant cowards and parasites.

    We now return to to our regular programming,  "Jim the Poker Player---Super Patriot" already in progress.


    Your attempt to evade my point (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:57:57 PM EST
    by suddenly embracing patriotism is laughable.

    But I do wish I thought you had the best interest of the country at heart.

    But you don't.


    Yeah, Jim (none / 0) (#118)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:30:40 PM EST
    You're the table captain of who here is and isn't a patriot.  Have you ever thought of using your talents elsewhere, like keeping ISIS recruits from joining the Armed Forces?

    Or are you going to hurl futile broadsides of me being a traitor who doesn't love America in lieu of facts and logical reasoning?

    Choose wisely.


    Sorry, Jim, but you have no standing ... (none / 0) (#125)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:29:44 PM EST
    ... to be defining patriotism for everybody else here, and / or to imply that others just don't love their country as much as you do. That sort of phony barometer is bull$H!+, and is truly the last refuge of scoundrels.

    I have as much standing as you and (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:40:10 PM EST
    Mordiggian, perhaps more, when it comes to actually having done something vs always finding fault with the country while making a living in politics and bureaucracies.

    And I base my comments  on what s/he has written.

    All that hard work moving got you down?


    ... let me repeat myself slowly, so that even a chickenhawk like you can understand:

    You. Have. No. Standing. To do so. Period.

    ¿Entender, payaso? Or is it still too tough for you?


    Donald, chocken hawks never served (none / 0) (#152)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:34:34 PM EST
    I did.

    How about you?

    BTW - Between you and Mordiggian I feel like Earl Flynn fighting off the Spaniards;



    Correct (none / 0) (#157)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:53:32 PM EST
     the true  Chicken Hawks never served, a trait shared by most North American species. The defining trait  is their propensity to commit other peoples lives to folly after folly. Your tormentors show no such traits.

    BTW: Errol Flynn never ended up looking like a pin cushion.


    He posts in haste (none / 0) (#170)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:22:49 PM EST
    or then misspells words because of faulty spell-checking, or perhaps the Devil made him do it.

    If you can't take the heat, Jim.........


    Mord, you can't bring heat (none / 0) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:38:52 PM EST
    in any form or fashion.



    Your concern for Donald is touching (none / 0) (#139)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:10:41 PM EST
    but disproving your capricious and fact-free claims isn't work, and your snark directed at Donald only proclaims what you are for the world to see.

    Polanski! (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by oculus on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:23:41 PM EST

    Let him stay in France (none / 0) (#58)
    by McBain on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:40:09 PM EST
    This was a case where everyone, except the victim, behaved poorly.  The Judge blew it in 1977.  Time to move on.  

    He's gutsy. Filming in (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:42:23 PM EST

    He may be a criminal but he's a tallented (none / 0) (#61)
    by McBain on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:48:59 PM EST
    filmmaker.  Rosemary's Baby, Frantic and The Pianist are my favorites of his work.  I was never a big Chinatown fan.

    If (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:58:21 PM EST
    he was evangelist Christian he would have been forgiven years ago, so there's that. Maybe we could have Polanski direct "Duggars the Movie" and erase a whole truckload of sins.

    Repulsion and The Tenant (none / 0) (#74)
    by Mr Natural on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:49:25 PM EST
    were even better.  Hard core movie fans saw Knife on the Water without subtitles.  I've only seen it (three times) with subtitles.

    Many great films (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:58:44 PM EST
    my personal favorite might be Dearh and the Maiden.  It might also be Sigourney Weavers best work.

    Ha, no (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:06:54 PM EST
    DEATH and the Maiden


    Yes, and it is even more complex than that. Because the whole story leads up to a long monologue by the doctor, brilliantly delivered by Ben Kingsley, so that we must answer not only the question of his guilt or innocence, but the question of its meaning.

    By the time the film arrives at its answers, they have become questions. The most difficult question is, how must we punish the evil? If a man kills, must he then be killed? The most compelling argument against capital punishment, for me, is not that society should not execute, but that society should not make anyone into an executioner.

    "Death and the Maiden" is all about acting. In other hands, even given the same director, this might have been a dreary slog.

    DEATH (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 11:13:13 AM EST

    maybe you are familiar with this wonderful quartet from Schubert.  Now try imagining listening to it while being tortured.


    Fetus fight! (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:04:34 PM EST
    An abortion battle in the Texas legislature nearly turned into a fistfight on Sunday night after several Republican women changed their mind about a bill that would ban health insurance from covering abortions.

    According to the Houston Chronicle, House sergeants had to stop Republican state Rep. Jonathan Stickland from attacking Rep. Byron Cook (R) after Senate Bill 575 did not make it to the House floor as he expected.

    Cook had reportedly promised to move SB 575 out of the State Affairs Committee to the Calendars Committee if Stickland agreed to drop an amendment that would have banned abortions based on fetal abnormalities.

    Although Cook kept his word, three Republican women on the Calendars Committee -- Reps. Sarah Davis, Debbie Riddle and Patricia Harless -- backed out of supporting the bill at the last minute and sided with the Democrats, killing the measure with a 7-7 vote.

    At around 9:30 p.m., an enraged Stickland got in Cook's face on the House floor. After a brief yelling match and nearly coming to blows, House sergeants got in between the two to prevent the scuffle from continuing, The Texas Tribune reported.

    this made me laugh (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:52:43 PM EST
    Bernie is saying all (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:49:04 PM EST
    the right things

    US Senator Lindsey (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:03:27 PM EST
    knows a thing or two about foreign policy besides bombing and seeing what happens.   He knows a liar when he sees one, and, on cue, he is ready to put them behind the eight-ball.

    Lindsey, putting his experiences to work, said that "everything I know about Iranians I learned at the pool room," .. "I met a lot of liars, and I know the Iranians are lying."

    Pool room (5.00 / 3) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:09:13 PM EST
    or pool house?

    The top tier (none / 0) (#171)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:35:45 PM EST
    Rewrite: (none / 0) (#190)
    by Mr Natural on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:26:44 PM EST
    "Everything I know about Lying I learned in the Senate."

    On CNN (none / 0) (#1)
    by Repack Rider on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:02:49 PM EST
    Activist Deray McKesson told host Brian Stelter something most people know.  Police kill defenseless people, and then lie about it.  Stelter betrayed his stupidity by actually questioning the factual basis of something anyone can watch on YouTube.

    Mr. McKesson also explained that while unarmed Black protesters are often met with violent arrests, the white bikers who engaged in a shootout in Waco are seen on camera afterward relaxing with the arresting officers.  What's up with violent, criminal, armed WHITE people being treated with such respect?

    Predictably, the h8rs pile on, accusing this intelligent, dignified man of every racist form of contempt.

    Worth checking out.

    Just watching this on C&L (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun May 24, 2015 at 08:08:51 PM EST
    was considering linking to it.

    Was Deray (none / 0) (#6)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:00:30 AM EST
    Asked how much he has earned form his AstroTurf activism? Did he disclose who is funding him? #cutthechecks

    Was he asked why he posted photos of himself with Dorian Johnson on Twitter yesterday only to delete them minutes later?


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:07:07 AM EST
    That didn't take long.

    Quick question, do you have any Black friends?



    Gee, you seem to be following him (none / 0) (#7)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:13:57 AM EST
    pretty closely.  

    Do you have any substantial objections to what he says?  

    Even if either or both of your smears have some basis in fact, what is wrong with what he is saying?


    I do follow him closely (2.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:21:45 AM EST
    Where he goes, riots seem to follow.

    The biggest substantial objection I have regarding the initial post is the disinformation regarding the bikers being all white.
    The mug shots show various races there are many Hispanic names.


    Really, there wouldn't be any riots in Ferguson (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:05:08 AM EST
    or Baltimore if he hadn't shown up when he did?

    it also struck me you could say that about various sports championships, that riots occur often after a championship in pro baseball, basketball, etc, so the same pattern applies to the NFL, the NBA, etc.

    Do you get my point?

    You sound like the segregationists in the 60s who explained that their African-American populations weren't interested in voting, etc, it was all because of  "outside agitators".

    I'm sure the resemblance is purely coincidental.


    What riots, ally? (none / 0) (#67)
    by Palli on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:47:13 PM EST

    There was some rioting (none / 0) (#122)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:47:16 PM EST
    in Ferguson:

    Along with peaceful protests, there was looting and violent unrest in the vicinity of the original shooting.

    And Baltimore, although the demonstrations in both cases were overwhelmingly peaceful, IIRC.


    "Stirring up trouble" (none / 0) (#120)
    by MKS on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:39:48 PM EST
    That was what many in white America said of MLK in the day....I remember it well....before even conservatives now say positive things about MLK.  The non-racists would worry about how MLK was stirring up trouble.They were the polite ones....The overt racists would just call MLK a Communist.

    Now, we have conservatives arguing that to point out racism is racist.   If you point out the problem with shooting unarmed blacks, you are promoting racial discord--"stirring up trouble."  Some things never change.....

    In so many ways, white America is still in fear of a slave revolt.   That fear is a consistent American theme......


    Deray stereotypes (none / 0) (#9)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:32:46 AM EST
    Them all as criminals. Records searched by The Associated Press show more than 115 of the 170 people arrested in the aftermath of a motorcycle gang shootout outside a Central Texas restaurant have not been convicted of a crime in Texas.

    Just a group of enthusiasts out for a (4.20 / 5) (#19)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:49:34 AM EST
    lovely ride, right?

    Well, not exactly.  Couple of items that might be of interest to you:

    From The Intercept:

    A year before the deadly Texas shootout that killed nine people on May 17, a lengthy report by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives detailed the involvement of U.S. military personnel and government employees in outlaw motorcycle gangs, or OMGs. A copy of the report was obtained by The Intercept.

    The report lays out, in almost obsessive detail, the extent to which OMG members are represented in nearly every part of the military, and in federal and local government, from police and fire departments to state utility agencies. Specific examples from the report include dozens of Defense Department contractors with Secret or Top Secret clearances; multiple FBI contractors; radiological technicians with security clearances; U.S. Department of Homeland Security employees; Army, Navy and Air Force active-duty personnel, including from the special operations force community; and police officers.


    The 40-page report, "OMGs and the Military 2014," issued by ATF's Office of Strategic Intelligence and Information in July of last year, warned of the escalating violence of these gangs. "Their insatiable appetite for dominance has led to shootings, assaults and malicious attacks across the globe. OMGs continue to maim and murder over territory," the report said. "As tensions escalate, brazen shootings are occurring in broad daylight."

    The ATF report is based on intelligence gathered by dozens of law enforcement and military intelligence agencies, and identifies about 100 alleged associates of the country's most violent outlaw motorcycle gangs and support clubs who have worked in sensitive government or military positions.

    And from the Department of Justice:

    The Bandidos Motorcycle Club (Bandidos) is an OMG with a membership of 2,000 to 2,500 persons in the U.S. and in 13 other countries. The Bandidos constitute a growing criminal threat to the U.S. Law enforcement authorities estimate that the Bandidos are one of the two largest OMGs operating in the U.S., with approximately 900 members belonging to 93 chapters. The Bandidos are involved in transporting and distributing cocaine and marijuana and are involved in the production, transportation and distribution of methamphetamine. The Bandidos are most active in the Pacific, Southeastern, Southwestern and the West Central regions of the U.S. The Bandidos are expanding in each of these regions by forming additional chapters and allowing members of supporting clubs, known as "puppet" or "duck" club members who have sworn allegiance to another club but who support and do the "dirty work" of a mother club - to form new or join existing Bandidos chapters.

    Now, maybe it's just me, but I find it kind of puzzling the difference between how law enforcement reacted to average citizens engaged in protest and how they reacted to outlaw motorcycle gang members who are engaged in ongoing criminal activity and are responsible for shooting and killing rival gang members.  

    What I know, without question is, if the situation at Waco had taken place in the urban ghettos of Baltimore or Newark or Cleveland, as a result of a gang war between predominantly black, drug-dealing, members, you'd have been apoplectic if law enforcement had treated them with as much consideration as the cops in Waco treated those motorcycle gang members.

    And we all know this.  Save your outrage and indignation for people who don't completely get where you're coming from, okay?


    I don't (none / 0) (#24)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:58:56 AM EST
    understand how so many people miss the point that the police actually were  more violent in Waco then they have been in recent disturbances. They had a SWAT team positioned and actually opened fire with live ammo into the crowd and then arrested a large percentage of them. I wouldn't exactly call that  the preferential treatment that some imply.

    Everybody is fixating on the strangely calm aftermath from both the police and the bikers. From the bikers point of view I can see it as "that was brutal, I guess the party's over" mindset. Who knows what the police mindset was but it is obvious they knew the danger was over.

    Too much comparing apples and oranges here. That a deadly biker brawl broken up with lethal force would suddenly "sober" everybody up is not that surprising. It is also not surprising that the reverse is true in citizen protests where any kind of police aggression inevitably fans the flames on both sides.  


    Yeah, just fine, upstanding people (none / 0) (#10)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:56:47 AM EST
    and how many of them were convicted of a crime outside of Texas?

    Anyway, he smeared the good reputation of some people who are in a motorcycle gang.  Gosh, that's pretty weak tea.  


    He claims they are getting special treatment (none / 0) (#12)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:07:21 AM EST

    The bikers were shot at with real bullets. I am sure they would have much preferred tear gas and paintball rounds.

    They are all being held on million dollars bail. Ferguson rioters had bail set in the hundreds and low thousands. Even the serious offenses like assault and arson had bail set in the low five figures while waiting for trial.

    Some "privilege".


    The rioters didn't cause one death (3.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:20:06 AM EST
    while under the felony rule act, even if some of the bikers were killed by cop bullets, the bikers who first opened up would be responsible for the deaths in question.

    Murderous motorcycle gangsters get treated worse than people who are charged with rioting and the destruction of property.

    You can cry a river for the former, but I don't think you get anyone but mcBain the racist troll to agree with you.

    Maybe you could be the new racist troll around here. I'll be glad to recommend you to JL if you like.


    And there it is (1.50 / 2) (#14)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:27:29 AM EST
    In typical form. Personal attacks and baseless accusations of racism. Disgusting.

    You're the one who seems to excuse (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:41:32 AM EST
    a murderous(in the literal sense) riot by a somewhat less than multi-racial, predominately white, gang of armed motorcycle "enthusiasts", and complaint about riots that didn't end up in even one person getting shot and killed.

    Add to that your implication that the riots "seemed to follow him"' as though that was actually the case, that they wouldn't have taken place in lieu of his appearance, and yes, you do seem to be taking a racist line here.


    Mordiggian 88: (none / 0) (#39)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:59:29 PM EST
    You can cry a river for the former, but I don't think you get anyone but mcBain the racist troll to agree with you.

    I think you owe McBain and others here an apology for that comment.


    No, his bias are clearly (none / 0) (#44)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:27:25 PM EST
    delineated by his comments here

    When in doubt play the race card (none / 0) (#79)
    by McBain on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:46:50 PM EST
    Don't back up your accusation with any facts... just throw it out there.  Jeralyn rarely reads these comments, so what's the harm, right? I already called your bluff about another accusation and you had nothing.  

    You and FlJoe should have a contest.  See who can make the dumbest comment about me.  Joe has you beat right now, he told me I need to buy a bullet proof vest.  Was that a threat... who knows?... but it was dumber than calling me a racist troll.


    If you have a problem with (none / 0) (#173)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 06:04:32 PM EST
    What I posted here, you can e-mail here talkleft(at)aol.com.

    Oh, and Jeralyn does go thru threads sometimes and reads them, if you look at the previous Friday Open Thread, it contains 202 comments, the last of which is numbered 209.  Does that tell you anything?

    I only corrected you because you're a newby here.


    You are now painting (none / 0) (#23)
    by Chuck0 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:53:17 AM EST
    a broad, and ignorant brush. Many of those people arrested ARE fine upstanding people. I was once one of them. I still many people who part of the biker subculture. Many are patchholders and most are fine upstanding people. People with families, jobs, and businesses. Who pay taxes and contribute to their community.

    People are known by the company (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Anne on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    they keep.

    I know more than a few people who are motorcycle enthusiasts, and none of them has felt the need to associate with motorcycle gangs who are engaged in criminal activity.  

    No one's saying these people at Waco don't have jobs or families - but I wasn't aware that those are the things that give someone "fine, upstanding" status.


    Yeah, these guys aren't (none / 0) (#46)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:38:51 PM EST
    the kind of people you'd want to bring home to dinner, IMHO.

    To conflate people who ride bikes and follow the law with these people, 33% of whom have criminal convictions, is sheer madness.


    Fine, upstanding people (none / 0) (#25)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 10:16:32 AM EST
    Usually aren't present during a literally muderous riot.

    Also, If 55 out of 170 had a criminal record, that means they made up 33% of the crowd in question. So I guess that means 67% of the crowd was composed of fine, upstanding people.


    Chuck is right (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 10:58:15 AM EST
    the fact there are outlaw bikers is no more significant than the fact there was a segment of the crowds in Ferguson and Balitmore who were violent.
    I agree with the person in Repacks link.  The press coverage was very very different for Texas than it has been for the ones I previously mentioned.

    But the fact is most "bikers" are just harmless old farts like Chuck and myself.

    A funny thing happened a day or so after the biker riot.  I was running to the store after mowing the lawn, which meant I was sneezing every 5 minutes, and in town I drive by a group of bikers just pulling up for lunch at a place in town popular with bikers - btw the place is nothing like what you probably imagine a place 'popular with bikers' to be - anyway I sneezed, I have a problem sneezing quietly, I sneezed very loudly and ALL of them yelled "GOD BLESS YOU" as I drove by.

    It just struck me as funny.


    The media (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:10:52 PM EST
    coverage is indeed different. There is absolutely no depth to it. Just the headlines for a few cycles then the ridiculous "war on cops" follow up.

    Yes, Fox News (none / 0) (#34)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:28:28 PM EST
    doesn't talk about how anti-cop all these outlaw bikers are, I guess it's easier to get people concerned with the blahs and browns and their 'threat' to the cops instead.

    That's not my (none / 0) (#41)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:01:57 PM EST
    point. In Waco we had nothing short of a brief but violent and deadly  outbreak of urban warfare where  tactically armed police fired on citizens. All we get from the media is some form of "Bikers gone wild" narrative. Where are the eyewitness interviews, the press conferences, the questions? How, when and why did the cops operate as they that day? How many shots did they fire? Did they fire warning shots? Did they target the armed and dangerous or did they just hose the crowd? Crickets.

    I know what Bikers are, I know what the Blah's and Browns and other poor who are forced to live in high crime area are. Friend of the Devil or not they are citizens and as such  deserve the benefit of the doubt and should not be subject to lethal force from LEO except for the most dire circumstances.


    Kinda hard to answer all those questions (none / 0) (#45)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:33:22 PM EST
    without an investigation first, don'tcha think?

    Consider all the ballistic tests that have to be run with the bullets matched to either the cop guns or the from any of the 100 or so firearms they seized from those fine, upstanding citizens afterwards.  You are aware it takes a little more time than a few days, correct?

    Comparing this to any of the recent one-on-one police shootings is comparing apples to coconuts.

    Glad I could straighten it out for you.


    yes (none / 0) (#49)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:27:39 PM EST
    I understand investigations take time but that never stopped the press from endless questioning and speculation before, there is none of this here. All instances of police firing on citizens should be looked at hard and long no matter what anyone thinks of the victims.

    I think there is world of difference (none / 0) (#53)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 03:51:10 PM EST
    between a single shooting and a mass event involving firearms being wielded by both sides.

    of (none / 0) (#56)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:24:16 PM EST
    course but we were talking about the difference in media coverage  between the events. A mass event, as you describe seemingly should get some serious coverage that does not seem to be as forthcoming in Waco.

    Well, to begin with (none / 0) (#63)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 05:08:19 PM EST
    1.  Zero citizens from Waco or elsewhere rioted over the treatment of the bikers by the cops.

    2.  Whatever crimes or infractions were alleged to have been committed by the deceased in the cases in Ferguson or Baltimore pale in comparison to shooting weapons in public.

    3. No racial angle here.

    I understand up to a point (none / 0) (#64)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 05:43:19 PM EST
    Zero citizens from Waco or elsewhere rioted over the treatment of the bikers by the cops.
    I agree protests do work, at the very least keeping the media focused.
    Whatever crimes or infractions were alleged to have been committed by the deceased in the cases in Ferguson or Baltimore pale in comparison to shooting weapons in public.
    While it is obvious that the police were reacting to real crimes, it seems to me that would just make the story more sexy. "Shootout in Waco" has a ring to it.
    No racial angle here.
    Police shootings are only news when the targets are minorities?

    Pretty much (none / 0) (#65)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:11:24 PM EST
    We had a case here where the cops pursed a man into his mother's home and shot him dead because he was resisting arrest.  Outside my local area, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find anyone in the next county, let alone the state, who has heard of this case.

    Agreed (none / 0) (#66)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:27:09 PM EST
    police violence is way under reported and all too often swept under the rug.

    Chuck took umbrage at a snark directed towards (none / 0) (#28)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 11:26:55 AM EST
    The fine upstanding citizens involved in this riot as towards bikers in general.

    As Rex Stout put it in Fer-de-Lance:

    Personal resentment of a general statement is a remnant of fetish-superstition.

    Cleveland --Trial of Officer Brelo (none / 0) (#16)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:41:44 AM EST
    It seems that the trial judge, John O'Donnell, took a rather different view of this affair than the media.  Every media account I've seen has Brelo, at the conclusion of the chase, "climbing," or "jumping" onto the hood of suspect Russell's car.  This is highly prejudicial to Brelo, if untrue, because it readily lends itself to the inference that Brelo wasn't quite "right in the head," or knew the suspects were unarmed.  O'Donnell found otherwise.  He says that Brelo, fearing that the suspect was going to ram the vehicle he was crouching behind, somehow managed to get up onto trunk of the suspect's vehicle.  Only moments before, Russell had attempted to run over Officer Wilfredo Diaz, who was approaching him on foot.  (Odd we never hear about that.)  He then drove straight at Brelo, who dove from his patrol car.  Here's what the judge found happened next, after Brelo got atop the trunk of the suspect's vehicle:  "So Brelo, afraid for his life, stepped onto the Malibu's hood and fired the night's final 15 shots through the windshield."  He further found that Brelo reasonably believed the suspects to be armed.  

    All in all, a refreshingly different "take," no?  Odd that O'Donnell (a Democrat, if it matters) didn't content himself with finding that the prosecution failed to meet its burden of proof.  In his capacity as the finder of fact, the judge made a number of determinations highly favorable to the defendant.  These make it largely immaterial whether Brelo did or did not fire the fatal shots.

    You should be able to peruse the judges decision (all 35 pages of it) at cleveland.com.


    huh... (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Mr Natural on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:48:50 AM EST
    An alternate view.  The unarmed civilians in the car weren't trying to ram or run over anyone.  They were trying to escape from your prevaricating porcine pals, who had them surrounded and were gleefully emptying their semiautomatics into their victim's unarmed bodies.

    The idea that Officer Brelo could jump on the trunk or the hood of a dangerously moving car is laughable.  The car was stopped.  The victims were already morguebound.

    But the Brelo decision raises an interesting question.

    Are today's police deliberately shooting the he$$ out of people?  Has someone advised police departments that if a single bullet cannot be proven to be the cause of death, because so many bullets would individually have been fatal, then the shooter gets off as in this case and for that reason?


    Concur (none / 0) (#21)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:10:04 AM EST
    I find the logic interesting that because SO MANY cops were shooting at the two, none can be shown to have fired the fatal shot(s), so they are all off the hook.

    I couldn't help letting out a laugh (none / 0) (#29)
    by NYShooter on Mon May 25, 2015 at 11:50:07 AM EST
    when I heard that.

    A few years ago, on the program, "Law and Order," (I'm not positive about the details, but generally, this is how it went down.) Two guys devised the perfect crime. They murdered two girls (their wives, I believe.) And, each one purposely left enough circumstantial evidence at the scene to make each, first one, later the other, a prime suspect(s.) When the cops had enough evidence on the first one, they arrested him for capital murder. Feigning resignation at the overwhelming evidence, he pleaded guilty.

    Just before his trial was over, the other one came forward, and confessed to the murders. The evidence was equally great for him too. Obviously, at this time, the cops & the D.A. realized they had been scammed. As frustrated as they were, there was nothing they could do.

    Does anybody here remember that episode? I swear, I don't remember the outcome.  


    Read the Investigation Report to Prosecutor 2/5/13 (none / 0) (#52)
    by Palli on Mon May 25, 2015 at 03:01:28 PM EST
    1. The high speed chase was unnecessary and dangerous. The initial minor traffic infraction had already been written and the auto license had been noted. Unmarked cars joined the chase heightening the danger to citizens.

    2. Only 13 POs fired their guns. The most aggressive were Brelo 49 shots reloading 2X & his partner Cynthia Moore 19 shots.  (Incidentally, the nine officers (including Moore) who are suing the city for "reverse discrimination" fired a total of 72 of the remaining shots into the car and victims.)

    3. Prior to the day of the massacre, Cleveland officers had been given "Ambush" training and were taught to shoot from within their patrol cars through the windows before debarking. The first cops to corner Russell's car in the school parking lot did just that. Following  patrol offers saw the damage and incorrectly assumed the officers had been shot. In addition, the radio transmission was only "shots fired" so again, cops incorrectly assumed the officers had received fire. (Who says cops are playing urban warfare?)


    Elements of the PO "Reverse Discrimination" Lawsuit

    Text Judge ODonnell's Verdict (does not include the video of his analysis)


    Fact v. Myth (none / 0) (#60)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:46:53 PM EST
    Anyone with a serious interest in this case should read Judge O'Donnell's decision.

    Russell's initial confrontation with "the law," on this fateful day, came when he was "pulled over" for failure to give a turn signal.  The officer exercised his discretion to "let him go."  Shortly afterward, he passed a couple of officers standing on a street corner, and his vehicle backfired.  This resulted in a radio report that a gunshot had been heard, coming from the car.  When other officers attempted to 'pull him over," the chase was on.  According to the judge, this was quite a spectacular affair.  Russell careened through a pizza parlor parking lot, sideswiped a patrol car, and hit speeds in excess of 120 mph.  When they finally got Russell cornered, in a dead end, Officer Wilfredo Diaz got out of his patrol car, and approached the suspect's vehicle, on foot.  The fireworks started when Russell attempted to run over Diaz.  I have no reason to doubt that all officers present participated.  I don't offhand recall whether the judge attached any significance to Russell's blood alcohol reading of .131.

    I suspect the judge's decision has a lot of people fuming, perhaps even the august beings at the DOJ.  Ordinarily, the outcome of a criminal trial isn't fatal to subsequent proceedings.  If a prosecutor can't prove his case beyond reasonable doubt, the civil plaintiff is entitled to try his luck under a "preponderance of evidence" standard.  Judge O'Donnell, however, has here made a number of specific findings of fact which may well kneecap anyone contemplating subjecting Brelo to further difficulties, whether criminal or civil.  Interestingly enough, he required Brelo to prove that his actions were reasonable, and ruled that he had met his burden.  I imagine this has occasioned some grinding of teeth.


    Correction and Addition (none / 0) (#77)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:21:23 PM EST
    Upon a reread of Judge O'Donnell's decision, I see I erred in saying he puts Brelo going from the trunk of the suspect's car to the hood.  He says that Russell, after trying to run down Diaz, accelerated straight towards Brelo, and then slammed into car 238, behind which Brelo took shelter.  Brelo, afraid that the suspect was going to ram the car he was behind, then "clambered" onto the trunk of that car.  It is by no means clear how he got from the trunk of car 238 to the hood of the suspect's car.  The judge says the prosecution's expert spoke of Brelo "going on the trunk of zone car 238 and then on the Malibu's hood."  Who knows.  

    In any event, the judge makes it quite clear that the gunfire began only after Russell tried to run down Officer Diaz, who was out of his patrol car.  It was dark, with no artificial illumination, resulting in a confused and chaotic scene.

    I was rather taken aback to see that the judge imposed on Brelo the burden to show that he was legally justified in using deadly force.  He admits he could find no "decisional law" to support this.  If he here fell into error, however, it is not one from which the prosecution can benefit.        


    The Cleveland police officers that were involved (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:36:33 PM EST
    In this act are just startling to this household.  You realize that these officers acted exactly like Blackwater did in Iraq, and their actions were war crimes?  If Blackwater heard or witnessed anything that caused any member concern, they just opened up on the street.  This sort of behavior was considered criminal and irreparable in its social destruction IN A COMBAT ZONE.  How is anyone considering such cowardice from police officers acceptable on the streets of our nation?  Unless they want our streets to be the next war zone.  This type of use of force is insane and shreds the social fabric, it shreds the confidence of the citizenry, it destroys peace of mind for all of us.

    Ohhh Please -- (none / 0) (#22)
    by Uncle Chip on Mon May 25, 2015 at 09:47:30 AM EST
    "So Brelo, afraid for his life, stepped onto the Malibu's hood and fired the night's final 15 shots through the windshield."  He further found that Brelo reasonably believed the suspects to be armed.

    Ohhh Please --

    No sane person and no cop in his right mind would do such a thing if he believed the suspects to be armed.

    Let's face it: Brelo pissed on the judge's leg and told him that it was raining -- and the judge said that he believed him even though no sane judge would.


    And let's not forget that (none / 0) (#26)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 10:20:22 AM EST
    Berlo's combat duty in Iraq raises a strong presumption of mental instability (not to speak of moral deficiency.)

    Odd that the Ohio Democratic Party is trying to put a judicial twit like John O'Donnell on the Ohio Supreme Court.


    Was that dry sarcasm? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:14:22 PM EST
    "Berlo's combat duty in Iraq raises a strong presumption of mental instability (not to speak of moral deficiency.)"

    Please tell me this is satire.


    Actually, (none / 0) (#32)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:21:23 PM EST
    I think it's a reasonably accurate representation of the media "narrative."

    Welcome to the 19th Century (none / 0) (#35)
    by Repack Rider on Mon May 25, 2015 at 12:32:16 PM EST
    "Berlo's combat duty in Iraq raises a strong presumption of mental instability (not to speak of moral deficiency.)"

    Please tell me this is satire.

    PTSD is not a joke.  It affects many people who remain untreated because our Congress no longer has many members who are veterans themselves, so Congress doesn't care about those who sacrificed for their country.  Unfortunately, many of those untreated cases end up in law enforcement because it's seen as a good job for those with weapons training.

    I'm pretty sure you never served.  You sound like the kind of person whose idea of "sacrifice" is skipping lunch.


    And I don't (none / 0) (#42)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:02:45 PM EST
    view the hatchet job the media is performing on Officer Brelo, a former Marine, as a joke.  You need to get your irony detector checked.  Seriously.  And see below.

    Now, in the interest of getting the discussion back onto the facts of the Brelo case, can anyone come up with a reason for willing Wilfredo out of existence?


    I never served, as advised (none / 0) (#43)
    by Redbrow on Mon May 25, 2015 at 01:06:18 PM EST
    By my father, a marine and a Vietnam veteran who suffers from PTSD.  It also greatly affects families of veterans, particularly their sons. Don't presume to know what me or my family have sacrificed.

    And of course he is neither criminally "mentally unstable" nor "morally deficient".

    Just another typical TL personal attack.

    Happy Memorial Day.


    I merely (none / 0) (#50)
    by whitecap333 on Mon May 25, 2015 at 02:36:48 PM EST
    offered a tongue-in-cheek comment on the way certain journalists have been trying to use Officer Brelo's military background against him.  Consider it withdrawn.

    My experience with PTSD and treatment (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:14:54 PM EST
    Thus far, if someone doesn't want to admit to it and has family members willing to enable the denial, then you don't have PTSD :). An MP who just returned from Afghanistan said that they are still subtlely coaching soldiers when going through their routine mental health questioning to respond that they aren't experiencing any emotional or traumatic difficulties.  The sad thing is, talking about this at a BBQ had all his fellow service members laughing out loud, it's a big joke that the larger powers would really prefer that they all just keep checking the fine box.  And if you check the fine box then you're fine.

    At this BBQ a big lid from a stainless steel chafing dish accidentally fell onto a tiled floor and about four of them to include a serving woman hit the deck.  Then they all stand up, everyone laughs a lot....again, we've really gone round the bend :)


    Very sad. (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Mon May 25, 2015 at 04:35:58 PM EST
    I struggle between whether it is sad (none / 0) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 11:21:53 PM EST
    Or simply a certain reality.  All sorts of people end up with Post Traumatic Stress, and sometimes it resolves with time and sometimes it doesn't.  Or it seems that it can be retriggered, like the nation going to war on a false premise AGAIN.

    My spouse had some PTS, most has resolved.  I say most because I respect that it can crop up again likely when someone he cares for hits a life threatening situation that arrived fast paced or perhaps the product of some kind of accident.

    I would think that anyone coming out of combat though should be discouraged from being a police officer.  Many would argue that is discrimination, but the dangers of individuals reacting highly inappropriately to danger...not being able to modulate their emotions, is very high.  There are so many other jobs they could do, and they receive hiring preference in GS jobs.  Do they really need to join law enforcement? Do we really need them standing on the hood of a car unloading 15 shots into a windshield because a car backfired?


    For some perspective: (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by NYShooter on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:03:10 AM EST
    Imagine you and I are standing, facing each other, approximately one/two feet apart. Now, if I make a thrust towards your face with my fist, stopping just short of contact, your natural reaction would be to flinch, and kind of contort your body in an involuntary twitch. That's absolutely normal, and 99% of people would react similarly. No matter that I swear I wouldn't actually strike you, and, no matter that you believe me 100%. If I make that gesture 100 times, you're going to react the same way 100 times.

    That's an example of the body/mind reacting reflexively, involuntarily, and evolution has perfected it as a way to keep you safe. This personal "sentry" protects you as you traipse through the woods, branches and little critters jumping out at you with their little sharp teeth & needle-pointed stingers, just dying to munch on your juicy, soft, and nutritious face. "Yummee."

     Well, that's all well, and good. You only react when something really is zeroing in on you rapidly to do you harm. The rest of the time you're calm and relaxed, just singing, "La, la, la, ta, tee, da." But, then, being in battle is when the music stops.

    If you react in battle the same way you did in the examples I gave you, you're dead. You're taught, and trained to preemptively react,   and not wait for something to, actually come flying at you.

    That's a very difficult exercise to develop and learn, but it has saved many soldier's lives.  The downside of this is, of course, that you've trained your mind/body reaction to be on constant, 24/7 state of alertness. It really is a form of self-hypnosis. And, once you've "got it," it stays with you every second of the day and night. It is an unnatural activity as it has to be learned, it doesn't develop naturally. So, try to imagine being in this hyper-active state of alertness, regardless of whether there's a real threat, or not.

    Now, try to remember your level of anxiety, fear, alertness, and defensiveness.......when you, suddenly bolt up from a super, terror-filled nightmare.
    That's another form of PTSD. During the day, you appear calm and relaxed, but, actually, you're wound up tighter than a drum, with no relief.........ever.

    You don't need a degree in psychology to speculate on what that sort of stress can do to a person. You need it in the jungle to keep from being killed. After discharge, trying to assimilate back into the "before" you, that stress doesn't protect, it kills. And, that's a big cause of our epidemic suicide rate. Tired of waiting to be killed, you take matters into your own hands.



    A very accurate description (none / 0) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:15:41 AM EST
    of cause and effect.

    I also wonder if the suicide rate was the same after WWII?

    And if not is there a connection between returning home into an environment that totally recognizes you as a hero and one in which you are subjected to criticism and disapproval by some?


    I've yet to see any criticism of the Veterans (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:42:46 AM EST
    of the Iraqi War anywhere in the mainstream media, Jim, so please quit telling lies in order to prop up your own limited mis-understanding of the relationship between PTSD and suicide.

    Oh really (none / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:49:56 PM EST
    You are so uninformed.

    And uneducated.

    And more

    OSHUA SPARLING, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: Yes. Nice to talk to you, by the way. What we are doing, actually, is doing the anti-protest protest. And we were there with our flags. And all that happened I was -- a fellow saw me wear my 82nd Airborne sweater, and I noticed he also had an 82nd patch on his own sleeve.

    And he said I was a disgrace, basically, and that I was -- that I had blood on my hands and that I had no right wearing the uniform. And he spit at me.

    COLMES: And you spit back?

    SPARLING: Of course I did not.


    And more

    U.S. Marine and Iraq war veteran Manny Vega served his country and also happens to support Israel's right to defend itself against terrorist attack.  That was apparently enough for an increasingly agitated pro-Hamas crowd to begin pushing, pulling, and spitting on the Marine.

    And one thing is for sure. You didn't serve anytime or anyplace.


    Bahahahahahaha! I was at that protest (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:13:01 PM EST
    I saw no counter protest anyplace.  Dead serious!  And I even witnessed a very small anarchist display of anarchy go down...but no counter protest of the DC Iraq War protest.  Where the heck did this counter protest take place in DC?

    Oh, I didn't say that there weren't (none / 0) (#116)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:20:08 PM EST
    individual cases like the one you describe, I just doubt that anyone, even with severe PTSD from serving in Iraq, would be triggered to commit suicide from reading, hearing, or even experiencing such a response, or that there enough of those kind of incidences reported in the media as a whole as to make a difference in the suicide rate in the first place.

    Do you know of any cases where, in fact, an Iraq/Afghanistan veteran with PTSD was driven tom suicide by such a response?

    Oh, and as for my service record or lack thereof, how do you know that?  Why do you think you have some special gift based on your service in the military to determine from far away what course my life has taken, measured by your own subjective standards as whether or not I'm patriotic enough?

    Quit trying to put me down, Jim.  The quality of a fact or argument doesn't depend on it's origin or who makes it or repeats it/

    When you quit trying to be the table captain of who get to make what argument when here based on your imaginary ability to determine their patriotism, perhaps you'll finally graduate from the ranks of the 101st Keyboardists(of which I can definitely state you are a member---see how that goes?) and engage in arguments more sophisticated than blind charges of non-military service and pacifist.

    Your thesis is like saying since I oppose going around swatting at hornets' nests with a baseball bat, that I'm against pest control and that I want the Hymenoptera to overcome humanity


    I think the much larger issue (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by CST on Tue May 26, 2015 at 11:57:36 AM EST
    is not lack of hero worship - it's lack of understanding.

    A significant portion of the world "experienced" WW2 in one degree or another.  Even civilians at home felt the impact in a way that just doesn't exist for veterans today.

    If anything, I think the "thank you for your service" culture that does nothing to actually support the people coming home sounds empty and fake and isn't particularly helpful.

    And crying about "criticism" does a giant disservice to the many people who come home anti-war.


    I somewhat agree (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:46:38 PM EST
    I find the "thank you" somewhat false but hey, that's better than being spit on.

    BTW - All the military people I know or have ever known are "anti-war."


    Like when Sen McCain was (none / 0) (#141)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:18:24 PM EST
    singing Bomb Iran?

    Yeah, he's real anti-war.

    Of course, you could say that he wasn't a member of the military that you know or have ever known in the past.


    Jim, yes, PTSD came home with WW2 soldiers (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by NYShooter on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:52:51 PM EST
    Of course, they called it "battle fatigue," or , "shell-shock," back then. It wasn't well known at the time and the treatment consisted mostly of being told to just, "shake it off."

    And, certainly, suicides were a common result of this. The exact percentage, who knows? But, being told, "don't worry about it, you're home, you're safe, you'll get over it," must have added to a veteran's sense of isolation, and depression.

    That knowledge, that no one could possibly understand, is the main reason so few vets talked about their experience in the theatre. When people, big smiles on their faces, yelled, "welcome home soldier," as the troops were disembarking, the soldiers just stared back, thinking, "you'll never know."

    The one thing the soldiers did bring back with them was the certain knowledge that they'll never be "home" again.

    That part never changes.


    We have a friend working with PTSD soldiers (none / 0) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 10:17:50 AM EST
    In private practice.  Many years ago he was also a soldier.  After service he made his bread and butter in criminal psychology.  He is sharp.  He works with law enforcement but went in a completely different direction where he was not on the streets with a weapon in hand.  He says the stress can be " unlearn".  You cannot enter that program with him though until you are completely out of uniform, because you need it to survive in uniform.  He won't process someone through until there is no chance they can ever be called on and deployed into combat.

    Have you seen (none / 0) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 10:27:58 AM EST
    Game of Thrones

    Oh Yeah :) (none / 0) (#162)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:03:43 PM EST
    After waiting 6 weeks (none / 0) (#165)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:12:51 PM EST
    for something to happen Cerci gets hers and someone from this world meets someone from that world on the same day.

    I get the sense something is headed for the fan.


    A big shift in possibilities (none / 0) (#176)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 06:39:38 PM EST
    once (none / 0) (#68)
    by FlJoe on Mon May 25, 2015 at 06:52:54 PM EST
    again the public should demand to see the 28 pages, Bob Graham didn't buy Bush's BS either.

    Escapism & engagement (via reading) (none / 0) (#70)
    by christinep on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:20:00 PM EST
    The urge to have the old-fashioned submergence in reading adventure has been deliciously satisfied via Louise Penny books in the past several months.  As a girl, I read & read Perry Mason; and, then, decided to be an attorney rather than an archeologist or astronomer ... 'must have been into "A"s, huh.  Years and school and heavy-duty work ensued, and I seemed to lose the ability to read for pleasure.  But, no more.

    I love the Louise Penny series with Chief Inspector Armand Gamache.  My favorite cousin sent me her first ("Still Life" from 2005) last fall.  Now, I'm on the fifth Gamache book, while immersing myself in the fictional town of Three Pines in the south of Quebec.  It almost feels like Brigadoon transformed into mystery puzzles with more-complex-than-usual characters.  

    Any other adherents out there?

    Yes. I love the Inspector Gamache (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by caseyOR on Mon May 25, 2015 at 08:37:36 PM EST
    mysteries. I have read them all and am impatiently awaiting the release of the next one in August.

    There is this mystical, mythical quality to Three Pines, but the books, the storylines, are grounded and sometimes quite gritty.

    I also like this glimse of life in modern Quebec, the conflict between its split culture- French and English. and how that plays out today.

    You are on the fifth book, eh? You have some great reading ahead of you, christine.


    casey: Encouraging words...thank you (none / 0) (#144)
    by christinep on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:31:44 PM EST
    The books are enchanting in many ways ... hey, even the paperback covers/designs call to the touch.  But, her words; yes, they are captivating in insight, questions, lay-of-the-land descriptions and the humor that pops out when you need it or those unexpected times as well.

    How Penny weaves it is masterful.  So far, she allows the characters to unfold in such a human way that you'd like to stop by the Bistro for drinks & dinner and full talk. Their dimensions get the reader beyond the stereotypical (for the most part.) What a standard she has set for others, and for herself as well.

    I'm a pokey reader ... especially when the tale is one to savor.  It'll be a long while until I get through them all (and, if it keeps us, might not want to end.)


    Yes, I read the first 2 or 3 (none / 0) (#142)
    by ruffian on Tue May 26, 2015 at 03:26:20 PM EST
    Had to take a little break.  Sometimes the little town is just too perfect...except for all the murderers! :-)

    They really are good though.


    Bad Lip Reading (none / 0) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon May 25, 2015 at 07:21:49 PM EST
    flash floods in Houston (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 09:43:00 AM EST
    its truly amazing how fast this can happen.  I was in one once.  One of the times I was there working I was on the way to have dinner with a friend at our favorite Chinese restaurant.  We were just driving down the street and suddenly there was water coming into the car.   A couple of seconds later the car stalls and we have to get out and leave it in the street with thousands of others and start walking.  Funny thing we were coming from the boot store and were both wearing brand new Tony Lamas.  Which we took off (seriously).  After about a block my boyfriend steps off a curb and turns his ankle.  (Seriously).  So a block or so later we arrived at a hotel that for whatever reason was on enough of a mound (nit really a hill) that it was not flooded. I was carrying the boyfriend on my back and he was carrying both pairs of cowboy boots.
    We stayed there several hours it was sort of a party atmosphere. The hotel was serving free drinks and someone came by saw Hal's blue and swolen ankle and gave him a couple of Qualude.  Eventually, about 4 am, a redneck in one of those high water pickup trucks took us home.

    Today (none / 0) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 09:48:46 AM EST
    Yeah, Just Got to Work (none / 0) (#98)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 11:47:12 AM EST
    We were hit the hardest with 10.25" of rain over night.  I live in Sugar Land, which is SW Houston.

    We fared fine, it's fairly new part of town.  But I did wake up a couple times, once my dog jumped on my bed because she is deathly afraid of thunder so I let her stay and rubbed her belly so she could sleep.  The other time the windows were rattling.  I sleep like a brick so for me to wake up is odd, but then I got it in my head that the tree next to my bedroom could come down and that would really suck to get rained on.  Today once awake I realized rain would be the least of my problems if that tree came down.

    The flooding is because the old infrastructure in the older areas that are between west Houston and the gulf.  So all the water from my area ends up in their area compounded with many other areas and the infrastructure that is designed for 100 year flood is dealing with 100+ year flood about every 15 years.  But no fear, Jim tell me it is all a gigantic hoax.

    Houston is extremely flat as it used to be under the sea.  So there are no real river, just manmade bayous that do a great job so long as we don't get nearly a foot of rain overnight.

    It is a mess out there.  When it's night and raining, people think they can make it though shallow water, get in and before they know it, it's not shallow and the car stalls.  I bet there are a thousand cars on the freeways alone, stalled out.  I used to have a Range Rover, and I loved it when it was like this as I go through three feet of water no problem.  Now, it's scary so I stayed home until I knew it was clear.

    They are saying it's worse than tropical storm Allison as far as in the city.  Allison was much larger but did not drop the rain as quickly.  And the local news likes to let everyone know they need them.  I don't think it's as bad, but it's bad.

    The good news, at 10 when I left home, only one fatality.  But that could change as many cars are still under water that may have people in that could not get out.

    The bayou behind me at work is the highest I have ever seen it and it stopped raining about 7 am.  I am the only one here, which really sucks, I could be at home.

    HERE are some pics, some I thin are form Allison, but ti looks the same.


    Okie Dokie (2.00 / 2) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    It ain't MMGW.

    Of course if want to feel like you have some control over the situation and that it is man made.....

    Quit your job, sell your car, break your lease and go live under a tree.


    Jim I Would Rather Not... (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:19:24 PM EST
    ...mimic your sad life.

    The scientists who say Global Warming is not hokum, are the very same folks who predicted the weather would become more varied and turbulent.  I guess they got half the equation right or is this just one great big coincidence happening all over the country.


    Weather has always been varied and (none / 0) (#160)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:57:01 PM EST

    More people were killed by tornadoes in the two-day period since April 5-6, 1936, when 454 people were killed, mostly in Tupelo, Miss., and Gainesville, Georgia," according to NOAA. And it was the deadliest single day for tornadoes since the March 18, 1925, tornado outbreak that had 747 fatalities across 7 states.May 2, 2011


    Then we have 2013 which set the FEWEST record.


    Using (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 26, 2015 at 06:26:37 PM EST
    fatalities as a metric is just plain dumb. The forecasting, doppler radar, warning systems, 24 Hr and social media available has proven to reduce fatalities drastically. Trust me there is no tornado going to sneak into Tupelo in this day in age.

    Of course weather is varied, that's part of the definition. If you look at any year by year weather graphs, no matter what parameter, you will see wild variations, including some remarkable outliers.

    Climate change predicts increasing  weather anomalies just like the record the 2013 fewest tornadoes, just like the 2011 most, weird weather indeed.

    I would think as a Naval Aviation veteran your science knowledge would be more acute especially your "weather eye".

    By the way, what do you make of those Admirals in the Pentagon who seem to be buying into the reality of climate change? I thought you Navy guys stuck together.


    I agree that forecasting has improved (none / 0) (#185)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 07:58:59 PM EST
    so has death and injury reporting. How many were killed and injured in the past that weren't counted??

    And do you realize that when someone predicts increases and decreases how silly that is??

    If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas.

    - Dandy Don to Howard several times


    To make matters worse, NOAA and NASA have also added adjustments to the data that enhance the apparent warming by cooling the past, perhaps to better match the climate models they run. This allows them and the media to proclaim each month and year was the warmest or among the warmest ever.

    An investigation is ongoing into how much they have changed the data and what the real data says. We have old data sets and they tell us the adjustments are larger than justified and always in the same direction (more warming). But we will let the experts have their say.

    Your heroes are about to get caught.


    You mean (none / 0) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:00:48 PM EST
    caught without photos of their heroics.

    Like you.


    Hotter air can carry more moisture (none / 0) (#163)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 05:09:07 PM EST
    Than cool air can.  

    Here's a graph that you don't need a degree in climatology, or even medicine, to understand.

    Oh, and BTW, there's a massive meltdown taking place in the Antarctic:

    Stable Antarctic Ice Is Suddenly Melting Fast

    Sea levels worldwide will rise higher than anticipated, thanks to a new once-stable region of Antarctica that is suddenly melting, and at a fast rate. Analysis of satellite data shows that although the massive ice sheet on the southern Antarctic Peninsula, made up of multiple glaciers, was rock solid from 2000 to 2009, since then it has begun to melt rapidly. The glaciers, stretching along 750 kilometers of coastline, are shedding 60 cubic kilometers of ice into the ocean each year--about 70,000 Empire State Buildings of ice annually.

    The onset of such rapid loss "came as a surprise to us," says Bert Wouters, a fellow at the University of Bristol in England, who led the analysis, published in the May 22 Science. In just a few years, he says, the dynamics of the region "completely shifted."

    The surface of some of the glaciers is dropping by as much as four meters each year, as measured by remote-sensing instruments on the CryoSat 2 satellite. The ice loss is so great it is also causing changes in Earth's gravitational field, which have been detected by GRACE (Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment) satellites.

    Wouters says the glaciers' quick disappearance is not caused by a reduction in annual snowfall or by warmer air temperatures. It is caused by thinning ice shelves; bulky glacial sheets on land transition into large, flat ice shelves that float on the ocean. When the shelves are thick, they slow or even stop the glaciers they are connected to from gently sliding into the sea, at the mercy of gravity. But if the shelves thin too much they can no longer hold back the enormous ice mass on land, and the glaciers accelerate their march into the ocean. This mechanism already has allowed glaciers in other regions of Antarctica to speed up their progress toward the sea.

    If anyone has some beachfront/oceanside property, now is the time to sell.  


    Man-made.. (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by jondee on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:16:06 PM EST
    what makes your schtick transparently obvious grifter hokum (from a hack salesman), is that folks like you won't ven acknowledge the obvious fact that human activity can INFUENCE climactic events.

    It's all either "man-made" or it "ain't". No middle ground, no possibility of any negative  human influence at all..

    It's amazing that J lets you continue to spout that Neanderthal-Biblical anti-science here. Truly.    


    Nope, not true (none / 0) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:00:48 PM EST
    It's all either "man-made" or it "ain't". No middle ground, no possibility of any negative  human influence at all..

    Cities act as heat sinks that change LOCAL weather.

    That has nothing to do with global change.


    They were just showing Sheperd Drive (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:34:11 PM EST
    could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that is the street we stalled out on.

    Shepard & 610... (none / 0) (#117)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:29:34 PM EST
    ...floods when it gets too humid.  That is where the iconic picture from Allison came where a 18 wheeler fuel truck was floating because it was in like 20 feet of water.

    They spent a lot of money after Alison putting markers on all underpasses so people could see the depth at the deepest point.  The hope being that it would stop people from trying to drive through it.  I would call that a fail at this point.


    They're certainly getting some Old Testament (none / 0) (#124)
    by jondee on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:19:30 PM EST
    Wrath of God weather down there in the Bible Belt..

    It can almost hear their favorite deity saying "Well, you folks asked for it, now you've got it!"


    Hey... (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by ScottW714 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 02:44:33 PM EST
    ...there are a lot of folks down here who aren't crazy and didn't ask for anything, some of whom don't even believe in their god.

    And don't you know, god only hates queers that aren't closeted homosexuals posing as venomous  religious homophobes who despise equal rights ?


    Well (none / 0) (#154)
    by jondee on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:48:52 PM EST
    maybe in true Leviticus fashion - as Pat Robertson would say - the Good Lord's punishing everyone for crimes of queers, secularists, the Sierra Club, and neopagan hippie tree huggers everywhere..

    B. B. King poisoned?? (none / 0) (#94)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 10:32:07 AM EST


    And the beat goes on (none / 0) (#97)
    by CoralGables on Tue May 26, 2015 at 11:17:18 AM EST
    George Pataki announces he will join the GOP field for 2016 on Thursday. I'm guessing he will be in Heat 2 of the first debate.

    Curious...why is it candidates announce that they will announce? Isn't the first announcement actually the official announcement making the 2nd announcement a rerun?

    Pataki (none / 0) (#99)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 26, 2015 at 11:49:22 AM EST
    actually makes sense. With all the nervousness of the donors with Jeb they are probably looking for another horse to back. I don't expect him to go far in the primary though being that he's pro choice along with a lot of other things the GOP base finds abhorrent.

    They live in fear that they will (none / 0) (#102)
    by Anne on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:03:53 PM EST
    end up announcing to an empty room, so the pre-announcement is about getting people to show up for the real thing.

    At this point, it would be easier to list who isn't running on the GOP side...


    [groan...] Rick Santorum to announce (none / 0) (#104)
    by Anne on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:14:09 PM EST
    on Wednesday, in PA, as well.



    Good grief. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 26, 2015 at 12:40:07 PM EST
    I'm kind of surprised he's running but then again the bubble people do not deal with things as they are.

    Good artice on the Cleveland shooting (none / 0) (#119)
    by McBain on Tue May 26, 2015 at 01:37:16 PM EST

    I find Danny Cevallos to be one the better legal experts on TV.  Here are some of his comments from his article.

    "Even without the gunshots, though, the court concluded that substantial evidence was presented that the suspect placed these officers in reasonable fear of their lives."

    "One thing is sure: For the public, judge-only trials are a boon. A jury simply votes one way or another, but a judge has to show his work. Judge O'Donnell's legal opinion allows us a rare insight into the mind of the modern factfinder tasked with determining if law enforcement is guilty of excessive force."

    How sure are the Republicans (none / 0) (#148)
    by CoralGables on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:03:01 PM EST
    that Alan Grayson is toast? The Club for Growth is running TV ads supporting Grayson in the Florida Dem primary for the US Senate.

    Soon, June will be (none / 0) (#151)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:15:24 PM EST
    busting out all over.   And, with it, will be two extraordinarily important decisions handed down by the US Supreme Court that directly impact the lives of all  Americans, although some may feel that they are not affected.

    King v Burwell could  affect millions of people in 34states who purchased health insurance on the federal insurance health marketplace.    Unlike the earlier Supreme Court case in which the constitutionality of the individual mandate was upheld, this case involves statutory interpretation as to the correct implementation.

    King argues that tax credits should not be given to citizens where the federal government, not the state, runs the marketplace established by the ACA.  The case hinges on the isolated reading of a statement "an exchange established by the state," versus a reading made within the greater context of the law wherein subsidies were intended nationally.  

    The second case, Obergefell v Hodges involves marriage equality, whether states have a right to ban same sex marriage or refuse to recognize such legally performed marriages in other states.    

    My worry, nay, my fear, is that these cases will be paired.   One win, one loss. It is not beyond belief that political considerations may contaminate legal merits.    

    In the case of King v Burwell, technical corrections, if that is what the Courts decides, may be readily attended to: Such as the US Congress could modify the language; the states could start their own exchanges. However, that is not the intent of the right wing challenge to Obamacare.  It is intended to  kill the law, aided and abetted by the Republican Congress--the fact that it takes away health care insurance protection from millions is unimportant to these miscreants.  

    Deciding against marriage equality would bring into question the credibility and legacy of the Robert's Court, given the incremental rulings,  status of the issue and ensuring chaos.  

    Let us hope that we will not encounter judicial malpractice from an errant and misguided balancing of hot potatoes.  It would not, in my view, make anyone happy--and, for everyone,  undermine the institution.


    The Obamacare thing (5.00 / 2) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:34:39 PM EST
    could become interesting.  They have said, if one believes them, they will do something to stop people from losing their coverage while its sorted out.
    But it's not hard to imagine that if people do suddenly lose benefits now it could make the next election even more interesting.  As a person set to lose my benefits I strongly believe it will bring people out to vote who might not have otherwise.  In ways they might not have otherwise.

    A longtime judicial approach to (none / 0) (#158)
    by christinep on Tue May 26, 2015 at 04:54:16 PM EST
    statutory construction seems to have fallen by the wayside IF an <almost> admitted drafting oversight at the center of the King v. Burwell dispute is really allowed to be determinative.  In my recollection: When a statute has been found to be Constitutional, the Court would normally act to construe ambiguous matters such as the technical phrase at issue here in a manner so as to give effect to said act.  The ACA has already been determined to meet Constitutional muster; and, the dispute over the several words at issue is premised in ambiguity ... judicial review, IMO, should have the force-and-effect guideline at the forefront.

    For a long time, I considered the controversy to be silly under traditional approaches to construction & interpretation.  Then, unfortunately, the well-known decisions of the Roberts Court--such as Citizens United--that seem to have jettisoned precedent have made me back up and worry about the outcome as you have, KeysDan.
    Because the Court has painted itself so politically, openly ideologically split on the most contentious of societal questions, it would not surprise me at all to see a "splitting of the baby" approach/a one-for-you, one-for-me approach.


    This NY Times article explains one of the big (none / 0) (#191)
    by Green26 on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:30:13 PM EST
    reasons the US is not being more successful in Iraq and Syria. The US rules of bombing/engagement are so restrictive that only 1/4 of the bombers even drop their bombs on their mission--to avoid civilian casualties. A general has to see a video of the target and approve before the bombing plane can release its bombs, someone quoted in the article says.

    NY Times.

    Silly (none / 0) (#192)
    by FlJoe on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:37:00 PM EST
    Americans, Kill'em all and let Allah sort them out is the only viable strategy.

    Except - surprise! - the NYT doesn't (none / 0) (#194)
    by Anne on Tue May 26, 2015 at 08:47:44 PM EST
    exactly tell the whole story.

    From The Intercept:

    But there's one rather glaring omission in this article: the many hundreds of civilian deaths likely caused by the U.S.-led bombing campaign in Iraq and Syria. Yet the only reference to civilian deaths are two, ones which the U.S. government last week admitted: "the military's Central Command on Thursday announced the results of an inquiry into the deaths of two children in Syria in November, saying they were most likely killed by an American airstrike," adding that "a handful of other attacks are under investigation."

    Completely absent is the abundant evidence from independent monitoring groups documenting hundreds of civilian deaths. Writing in Global Post last month, Richard Hall noted that while "in areas of Syria and Iraq held by the Islamic State, verifying civilian casualties is difficult," there is "strong evidence [that] suggests civilians are dying in the coalition's airstrikes."

    Among that evidence is the data compiled by Airwars.org, a group of independent journalists with extensive experience reporting on that region. Last week, the group reported:

       To May 13th 2015, between 587 and 734 civilian non-combatant fatalities had been reported from 95 separate incidents, in both Iraq and Syria.

        Of these it is our provisional view -- based on available reports -- that between 370-465 civilian non-combatants have been killed in incidents likely to have been conducted by the coalition.

        A further 130-145 claimed deaths attributed to coalition airstrikes are poorly reported or are single-sourced, while an additional 85-125  reported fatalities resulted from contested events (for example, claims that the Iraq military might instead have been responsible.)

        In addition, 140 or more `friendly fire' deaths of allied ground forces have been attributed to the coalition, with varying levels of certainty.

    I mean, who does the NYT thinks it's kidding?