Wednesday Open Thread

R.I.P. Robbie Robertson, who passed away today at the age of 80 after a long illness. What a great musician and songwriter he was.

If you haven't seen The Last Waltz, please do. Here is I Shall Be Released. Robbie looks so happy as he's playing, and don't miss his comments during an interview at the end of the song. Eric Clapton, Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Van Morrison, Ringo, Joni Mitchell, Ronnie Wood and more all sharing the stage to sing. It gives me the chills just watching all that talent at the same time.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Charges Added to Trump's Florida Indictment | Trump, Giuliani and 17 Others Indicted in Georgia >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft

  • Display: Sort:
    Tragedy struck Maui last night and today. (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 12:55:11 AM EST
    Wildfires fueled by dry vegetation and residual high winds from Hurricane Dora to the south quickly enveloped and destroyed the entire historic town of Lahaina on the island's west side. At least six people have been killed in the conflagration that we know of, and that number is expected to rise as search and rescue efforts turn toward recovery.

    I think what added to my own distress over the calamity was something rather stupid. Many of the comments I read on social media were centered around the fate of the 150-year-old banyan tree that dominated the center of town. Mia Farrow, for one, talked out of her a$$, claiming that the tree "had a mystical importance for the Hawaiian people."

    (No, it didn't. The banyan tree was planted on April 24, 1873 on the grounds of the Lahaina Courthouse to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the arrival of first American Protestant mission in west Maui. It was exclusively a white people's affair.)

    They were talking about Lahaina as though it was a Disneyland attraction, rather than home to 13,200 people. I just wish Mia & Co. showed as much empathy for the pain and suffering that Lahaina residents are presently experiencing and enduring, as they did in caterwauling over the fate of a g*ddammed tree.

    Compound that with network newscasts interviewing not Maui residents, but mainland tourists lamenting that their vacations have been ruined. And yet, some people still wonder why there's growing resentment among island residents toward the 10 million-plus visitors who arrive here annually and treat locals as though they're nothing more than the hired help.

    Sorry about the rant. It's been a long day. We've had several major fires of our own here on the Big Island, and part of my job with the county is coordinating community assistance for displaced residents during times of emergency. Tonight, I'm feeling every single one of my 62 years.


    UPDATE: The death toll in Lahaina is now 36. (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 09:43:46 AM EST
    The video and photos now coming out of west Maui are both shocking and heartbreaking. Most of the town's structures have been burned to their foundations and are just heaps of ash.

    A few blocks of homes survived on the east and north sides of Lahaina, but the rest of it has been literally wiped out. The town was on the National Register of Historic Places, but all of its many historic buildings, some dating back to the 1830s, are now gone.

    As far as officials can determine, a brushfire initially ignited early Tuesday morning just east of town in the dried brush of now-abandoned sugar cane fields. It had been declared contained by 10:00 a.m. and firefighters were extinguishing its remnants.

    But at about 3:30 p.m., 70-80 m.p.h. wind gusts from Hurricane Dora's outer bands reignited smoldering embers and then whipped it up within 30 minutes into a raging inferno.

    The tall flames swiftly overwhelmed county firefighters and then roared into Lahaina at a speed that surprised many residents and visitors, who had only minutes earlier been going about their day and had no idea of the calamity that was about to befall them.

    Civil defense officials believe most of the fatalities occurred early in the disaster. Some people had literally fled into the ocean to escape the fire and had subsequently drowned.

    By 9:30 p.m., fire officials had given up all hope of saving the town and turned their efforts toward the evacuation of all remaining residents and visitors north to Kapalua and east to Kahului. By dawn yesterday morning, Lahaina was a smoking ruin.

    I'll say this right now: what happened here was a weather-related phenomenon that was caused by climate change and global warming. Hurricane Dora, which began as a tropical storm in the eastern Pacific off southern Mexico, should have weakened back into tropical storm status as it approached Hawaii.

    Instead, due to warmer waters now being farther north, Dora strengthened and grew into a category 4 storm of sufficient size and intensity that it managed to sideswipe the islands even as its eye passed 500 miles south of us. The hurricane is now about to pass the international date line, whereupon it will be known as Typhoon Dora.

    The young environmental activist Greta Thornburg once said that she wanted people to act with urgency on the issue of global warming as though their house was on fire, "because it is."

    She's right.


    Donald, thank you for providing (5.00 / 4) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 01:47:54 PM EST
    such a detailed account of the fire. I haven't been to Maui in a long time, but from the mid-70's through late 80's I went there once a year (as well as a few trips to the Big Island and Kona and Oahu). Lahaina, as you say, was a historical landmark, and a treat to visit, with its quaint shops and restaurants.

    Your points on climate change are well-taken. I recently watched Extrapolations on Apple TV. If you get a chance, please watch it and let us know what you think of it.

    Stay well and stay safe, and keep us posted, young man (62 is not old!)


    Thank you, Jeralyn. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:11:58 AM EST
    During my first few years in Hawaii back in the late '80s, I lived on Maui in Wailuku, which is the county seat and about five miles from Kahului Airport. I spent many an evening drinking and dining (mostly drinking) with friends in Lahaina. One of the town's annual events was Halloween, which attracted thousands of people. We'd dress up in costume and barhop up and down Front Street until last call.

    Those were truly happy years, which helped me to regain my mojo after a painful divorce in California. I can definitely say with conviction that impulsively moving to Hawaii turned out to be the best personal decision of my life.

    I'm heartbroken by what happened on Maui and surprised by the overwhelming emotion I've felt at times these past couple of days. It's like an important part of my past, my young adulthood, just went up in smoke this week along with Lahaina. I've been around natural disasters before, such as the 1971 Sylmar earthquake and 1994 Northridge earthquake in L.A., but this one in particular really hurts.

    Take care. Aloha.


    UPDATE No. 4 (10:30 am HST, Mon, Aug. 21): (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 21, 2023 at 03:53:40 PM EST
    Quite honestly, I would've thought the FBI would be the last agency to do this sort of work in a disaster. But apparently at FEMA's request, agents at the bureau's Honolulu field office went to Maui and quietly took over the lead in the search for residents and visitors who remain unaccounted for in the wake of the fire.

    And thanks to that dogged effort, according to Maui Mayor Richard Bissen, those agents were able to successfully find several hundred of those persons and inform worried families that their loved ones were safe. And after repeated crosschecking of lists provided by various public and private agencies with their own findings, the FBI has now determined fairly conclusively that 850 people are missing in Lahaina.

    While that's still a ghastly toll, it's certainly a far cry from the 1,300+ figure that was being offered by Gov. Green and local officials last week. So, we'll take good news where we can find it at this point. Our sincere Mahalo to the FBI for this important and valued contribution to the relief effort.



    Correction: This is Update No. 5. (none / 0) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 21, 2023 at 03:56:10 PM EST
    My bad.

    i am so sorry (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 05:57:55 PM EST
    for all the people affected. It sounds just devastating. Thanks for keeping us up to date.

    Donald, thank you for relaying all of this (none / 0) (#22)
    by leap2 on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 07:32:43 PM EST
    to us here. It's so shocking and heart-breaking to see the photos and videos, and read about all of this. People fleeing for their lives by jumping into the ocean, and drowning... I can't imagine. I never thought of Hawaii as a fire-prone environment, but I guess we are all on that page now.

    If this tragedy doesn't pound it home ... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 02:42:15 PM EST
    ... with everyone about the significant threat posed to all of us by global warming and climate change, then those people who refuse to acknowledge science are simply lost to the wrong gods they're following home. To bear witness as we have to a world-renowned town being quickly obliterated, just like that - well, it's been a very sobering and somber experience for me, personally.

    The death toll in Lahaina is now 55 as of last night but as I noted, about 1,000 people are missing. If they've somehow survived, they're going to start showing up in the community over the next 96 hours or so because otherwise, we have to consider the likelihood that many of them simply didn't make it out in time and were probably incinerated in the firestorm.

    At a joint press conference and informational briefing this morning in Wailuku, both Gov. Josh Green and Maui County Mayor Richard Bissen Jr. warned everyone that the number of fatalities in Lahaina is likely to increase significantly over the course of the coming days.



    I'm so sorry for everyone (none / 0) (#25)
    by Zorba on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 07:41:17 PM EST
    On Maui, and their loved ones. Thank you for keeping us informed, Donald.

    And just to be clear, because mainland media is still talking about the fatalities as though they're somehow found across the island of Maui when they're not, that death toll is exclusive to the town of Lahaina.

    Further, because that toll is likely to rise much higher as hope fades for finding alive the many hundreds still missing, the Lahaina tragedy is about to become the deadliest and costliest wildfire in modern U.S. history.

    From today's New York Times:

    "[The story of the Lahaina wildfire] arguably began decades ago, when Hawaii started experiencing a long-term decline in average annual rainfall. Since 1990, rainfall at selected monitoring sites has been 31% lower in the wet season and 6% lower in the dry season, according to work published in 2015 by researchers at the University of Hawaii and the University of Colorado.


    "As average annual rainfall has been decreasing, average temperatures in Hawaii, like elsewhere in the world, have increased, further drying out the vegetation. In a paper published in 2019, the University of Hawaii researchers wrote that 2016 was warmer than the 100-year mean by .92 degrees Celsius, and temperatures had been inching up by .19 Celsius per decade at the Mauna Loa Observatory.

    "Hawaii's landscape is changing in other ways, beyond becoming drier. As wildfires become more common, some native vegetation, which is poorly adapted to fire, has been destroyed. In other places, including the area around Lahaina, long-standing sugar cane farms stopped operating around the 1990s; the land stopped getting irrigated.

    "In the place of those crops and native vegetation, dry and invasive grasses spread. Those grasses are better able to regrow after a fire but are also quick to ignite. That has contributed to fires spreading more quickly.


    "Those underlying threats were amplified in Hawaii this past week by a separate threat: Hurricane Dora, which passed south of Hawaii as a Category 4 storm Tuesday. Although the storm was hundreds of miles off the coast of Maui, it contributed to wind speeds of greater than 60 mph, helping the fire to spread at a ferocious speed.

    "It's difficult to directly attribute any single hurricane to climate change. But by increasing air and ocean temperatures, warming conditions make it more likely for large storms to gain strength."

    May the Lahaina tragedy's silver lining be the alarm bell that arouses our entire country to finally and honestly confront the existential threat posed to everyone by global warming and climate change, regardless of where you live.



    A friend (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 13, 2023 at 06:25:44 AM EST
    of mine here used to live in Maui. One of her friends is missing and like you I think missing at this point means they have not found her remains. This is so tragic--so much destruction and death.

    Again thanks for keeping us updated.


    At this point, if they haven't shown up ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 13, 2023 at 11:45:26 AM EST
    ... at emergency shelters or at relatives and friends' homes, we can reluctantly assume that many of the approximately 1,000 missing residents and visitors probably perished in the fire. If their remains are to be found at all, it will likely be in the town's wreckage or the ocean.

    The death toll is now 93 and will pass the 100-count sometime today. I fear that many of the dead are going to be schoolchildren, because the first day of the new public-school year was postponed that day in west Maui and so a lot of students were at home.

    The Lahaina tragedy is already the deadliest U.S. wildfire to have occurred in the last 100 years. The deadliest fire in the 20th century was Chicago's Iroquois Theatre fire, which killed 602 in Dec. 1903. Lahaina may pass even that grisly milestone and rival the 1871 Peshtigo fire in Wisconsin as the worst in U.S. history.

    Please keep the people of Maui in your thoughts.


    This piece in WaPo... (none / 0) (#66)
    by leap2 on Sun Aug 13, 2023 at 10:27:25 AM EST
    We've been further advised by civil defense and public safety officials that this figure is likely to increase significantly because ominously, there are over 1,000 people who've been reported as missing.

    The focus in Lahaina has shifted from search and rescue to search and recovery as first responders go house to house and building to building and sift through the ashes and debris - and there were over 2,200 structures in Lahaina before the fire. Further, there are still a number of hotspots in town.

    How many of those missing are residents and how many are visitors, I don't know yet. But as I noted yesterday, the fire overtook the town so rapidly that everyone there had little or no warning. Many of the burned-out cars along Front Street contained bodies of people who were trying to escape before the flames overtook them.

    Now hopefully, that number of missing will eventually prove to have been inflated due to the complete collapse of all telecommunications systems in west Maui, which precluded individuals who had reached safety from notifying others that they were okay.

    But I'm going to be a realist here. The resident population of Lahaina was 13,200 and of west Maui as a whole, about 25,000. At least 3,000 are presently in emergency shelters, and about 4,000 others are staying with relatives and friends on Maui. Some in the shelters are likely to be sent to Honolulu for the time being.

    So, if 4% of west Maui residents are indeed missing, the odds of them showing up elsewhere on the island likely diminishes by the hour. Personally, I think the death toll in Lahaina may well eventually exceed 100 and in all honesty, that's my best-case scenario. We're hoping for the best, but we're also preparing for the worst.



    UPDATE No. 4 (4:30 pm HST, Tues, Aug. 15): (none / 0) (#112)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 15, 2023 at 09:31:37 PM EST
    1. The official death toll in Lahaina is now 101. Identification of recovered remains has begun, and relatives will be notified first before the names are released to the public.

    2. After a lot of reconciling of shelter lists with police / FEMA reports, etc., we now know that 1,322 people are missing. Honestly, five days after the fire, I'm not sure how much that number will change at this point. I don't want to assume most are gone, but it's hard to not think that.

    3. Maui County and FEMA personnel have searched 20% of the town's ruins in the effort to locate and recover the victims' bodies.


    gads (none / 0) (#113)
    by leap2 on Wed Aug 16, 2023 at 09:53:56 AM EST
    That number is starting to reach the Peshtigo fire toll .

    It's really unimaginable (none / 0) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 16, 2023 at 12:54:01 PM EST
    how could this happen?

    ... at many levels of local government all contributed to what happened in Lahaina. As I noted earlier, our review and analysis of the tragedy is going to be both painful and damning.

    For example, we were warned specifically in a 2014 report that Lahaina was incredibly vulnerable to wildfire and yet, the State and County engaged in little to no follow up on that report's recommendations for immediate remediation of known problems. Either it wasn't a policy priority, or there was a lack of funding, etc. Well, all those past excuses ring devastatingly and irredeemably hollow right now.

    As of this writing, the official number of fatalities in Lahaina is 106. But cadaver dogs and personnel from the Maui County Fire Dept., Honolulu Fire Dept., Los Angeles County Fire Dept. and FEMA are all now racing against the clock to locate and retrieve victims from the rubble as quickly as possible, due to the threat of an approaching tropical storm which may or may not pass south of us. Because if heavy rains were to subsequently sweep the Ground Zero site, we may never be able to find everyone afterward.

    I'm grasping at hope, perhaps in vain at this point, that the death toll in Lahaina somehow stays below 500. But I don't know how realistic that is, since more than 10% of the town's resident population of 12,702 are still listed as missing. And here in Hawaii, many of us have direct or indirect connections to this tragedy because in a small state like ours, we all know somebody who knows somebody, who knows somebody, &etc.

    One of my deputy directors in our office had to go to Maui last weekend to be with her brother and sister-in-law, who live in Lahaina. They were both at work at the time the fire blew down the mountainside but their two teenaged sons, ages 13 and 15, were at home. They're both missing and at this point, the assumption is that neither of them made it out.

    I didn't know this family other than my deputy, but it now feels as though I do. You just want to bury your face in your hands and cry when you hear personal stories about the kids that were apparently lost. That damned fire swept away not just everything they had, but all they were ever going to be.

    The history of disaster response and hazard mitigation in our country has always been based primarily on the collective number of scars we've incurred from past bad experiences. The scar from Lahaina is going to be huge and lasting, and it will hold necessary lessons to be learned by everyone in the entire country, not just those of us in Hawaii.



    Sounds like (none / 0) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 16, 2023 at 05:23:59 PM EST
    a tragic perfect storm

    It was, at that. (none / 0) (#117)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 16, 2023 at 09:08:42 PM EST
    And it's the sort of confluence of professional neglect and ineptitude I hope to never see again in my lifetime as a public official. Were I in charge, some serious heads would roll over this.

    And in one particular instance at the State's Dept. of Land and Natural Resources in Honolulu, there was a bit of bureaucratic negligence that appears to border on criminal - as in, "Hey, dude, this was in your effin job description and for whatever your reason, you decided to simply not do it and then not tell anyone about it. WTF?"

    Anyway, Hawaii Attorney General Anne Lopez has already launched an investigation, so that's good. I'll keep everyone informed.



    The NYT podcast "the Daily"- (none / 0) (#119)
    by desertswine on Mon Aug 21, 2023 at 11:49:56 AM EST
    had a man who survived the fire by going into the water in the harbor tell about his experience. It was horrific and heartbreaking. He escaped by the skin of his teeth.

    Thoughts and Prayers (none / 0) (#118)
    by coast on Thu Aug 17, 2023 at 10:25:10 AM EST
    to you and the people of Lahaina and Hawaii.  Truly appreciate the updates and your personal perspective.

    RIP (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by FlJoe on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 05:11:33 AM EST
    Robbie, truly a giant, one of the founding fathers of folk-rock.

    The Last Waltz is indeed an amazing movie.

    Can we stop calling these people (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 08:46:30 AM EST
    How about we call 'em ... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 10:31:21 AM EST
    ... "Christianistas" instead?

    I was lucky to score a ticket in January 1968 (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 09:34:38 AM EST
    to the Woody Guthrie Memorial Concert (Woody had died in October 1967) in Carnegie Hall, where numerous artists performed their own interpretations of Guthrie's songs. To the surprise and delight of the audience (myself most definitely included) a surprise participant was Bob Dylan, doing amazing rock versions of three extremely well-chosen songs (Great Grand Coulee Dam, Dear Mrs. Roosevelt, and I Ain't Got No Home), with a great backup group, which of course was (as the world later learned) The Band. It was his and their first pubic performance since Dylan's motorcycle accident. One of the great concert experiences of my life.

    Rolling (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by FlJoe on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 11:40:58 AM EST
    Thunder Tour, Lakeland April 1976,it was Easter time too, my gravity failed me (in a good way)

    Watch (none / 0) (#8)
    by BGinCA on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 10:18:16 AM EST
    The Band (5.00 / 3) (#24)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 07:39:07 PM EST
    I have a story about The Band.

    I was the roadie for a popular Bay Area band, the Sons of Champlin, from 1968 to 2010. (I retired, but the group is still performing.)

    In 1969 The Sons were honored to be second on the bill at Bill Graham's 5000 capacity Winterland when The Band performed in public for the first time since their debut album topped the charts.

    As the Sons finished their "showstopper," Bill Graham came on the stage and told me that The Band has some problems, and to keep the Sons on the stage.

    Of course they had played their A-list material, and had to reach into the B-list, such as covering "Lucille." That could only last another fifteen minutes, and exhausted, the guys left the stage...

    ..Which sat empty for 45 minutes. The crowd was more than restless, it was getting ugly.

    Finally The Band took the stage, briefly. They played six songs, no encore. The next day The Sons got the good reviews.

    I heard many stories about why it took so long. Most of them were that Robbie had suffered from stage fright, and that Graham had brought in a hypnotist to get him to play. Other stories involved drug problems, but I have no evidence for either version.

    We worked on one more show with The Band, at the Orange Bowl in 1975, on a bill that included The Band, The Eagles, Lynyrd Skynyrd, and Leon Russell.

    RIP Paul Reubens (PeeWee Herman) (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by john horse on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:20:13 PM EST
    Sorry to hear about Paul Reubens passing.  A comic who appealed to kids but also appealed to adult sensibilities between the lines.

    For example, one of my favorite PeeWee songs was the handwashing song:

    A sailor travels to many lands,
    any place he pleases,
    and he always remembers to wash his hands,
    so he don't get no diseases.

    He was a true original.

    Mitch McConnell looks really frail (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by MO Blue on Thu Aug 31, 2023 at 10:40:28 AM EST
    IMO in a very short timeframe, McConnell has gone from appearing as a  somewhat healthy  81 year old to looking like a frail old, old man.

    A Pirate Looks at 76. (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Sep 02, 2023 at 12:09:19 PM EST
    Rest in peace and smooth sailing Jimmy Buffett.

    A Pirate Looks at 40 was the anthem to my 30s. Jimmy will be missed.

    Yes...I'm back...yay (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by fishcamp on Mon Sep 04, 2023 at 12:45:17 PM EST
    I didn't know my roommate controlled our fiber optic internet system until minutes ago.  I've been blocked from TalkLeft for a long time because of an alleged phishing problem that I couldn't get rid of.  After a very long session with AT&T online, they are going to call me to try and figure it out. Jeralyn also reset my password to no avail. Harry came down from his room and I asked him where the spam folder is on Apple devices.  He asked what the problem was, I told him, and he said he could unblock me right now from his iPhone.  He had seen that page, but didn't realize what it was.  Neither of us knew he had a list of blocked internet accounts that only he could access since he set up this particular account.  We now know.  The torture never stops.

    Welcome back, (5.00 / 3) (#136)
    by KeysDan on Mon Sep 04, 2023 at 01:45:37 PM EST
    you have been missed.   Islamorada and the Middle Keys missed the brunt of the hurricane, fortunately.  Like Key West, wind and rain, according to friends.

    Yay! (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Sep 04, 2023 at 03:40:35 PM EST
    I am so glad your problem is solved. Look forward to hearing what you have to say on the recent craziness.

    In (none / 0) (#3)
    by FlJoe on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 05:41:55 AM EST
    any sane Clarence would be cooked
    During his three decades on the Supreme Court, Clarence Thomas has enjoyed steady access to a lifestyle most Americans can only imagine. A cadre of industry titans and ultrawealthy executives have treated him to far-flung vacations aboard their yachts, ushered him into the premium suites at sporting events and sent their private jets to fetch him -- including, on more than one occasion, an entire 737. It's a stream of luxury that is both more extensive and from a wider circle than has been previously understood.

    Nice (none / 0) (#4)
    by FlJoe on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 05:52:04 AM EST
    touch In Wyoming,
    the Thomases fished, rafted on the Snake River and sat by a campfire overlooking the Teton Range with the other couples. At one point, the Paolettas serenaded the justice with a song they wrote about him.

    "The night we flew old Clarence down, the tycoons were singing...."


    I'm glad someone pointed this out (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 02:39:15 PM EST

    Reason to Believe' Trump Would `Flee from Prosecution

     a three-judge panel of the D.C. Circuit relegated a blockbuster revelation to a footnote.

    "The district court also found reason to believe that the former President would `flee from prosecution,'"

    Any other defendant with remotely similar (5.00 / 5) (#13)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 03:42:40 PM EST
    assets and a record of making reckless statements about the witnesses (not to mention about the prosecutor) would, at absolute minimum, have their passport taken and be restricted in their out-of-state domestic travel.

    They might also be forbidden to access or use (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 03:46:27 PM EST
    any Internet-enabled device. I have had that restriction imposed on clients who engaged in threatening communications.

    What do you think judge Chutkan (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 04:21:36 PM EST
    Will do tomorrow morning.  All I hear is nothing can be done because he's a candidate.

    I kind of expect her to smack him.  Figuratively.


    I am sure the judge will enter some sort (5.00 / 3) (#21)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 07:25:12 PM EST
    of protective order on the discovery, to protect cooperating witness names if nothing else. Whether she will enhance the bail conditions I am curious to see. It is certainly not true that the judge "cannot" restrict his political speech, broadly construed, or travel because he is a declared candidate, but also true that she would be reluctant to do so. She can certainly forbid him to issue threats, direct or indirect, against the witnesses or prosecutors, or against the judge herself. The line between baseless personal attacks and indirect threats, of course, is a fuzzy one.

    ... it's a mistake to not take Trump's bluster seriously. Many of us simply blew it off as sour grapes after Joe Biden was declared the winner of the 2020 election and unbeknownst to us, he and his merry band of co-conspirators were plotting a coup d'état.

    The DA (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 06:04:05 PM EST
    on MSNBC said that he was sure she would do the protective order. As we just saw one of his minions planning murders of Biden, Bragg, etc.

    When I read about him I thought about you and how you're always talking about how they are overweight and couldn't go very far. This guy was handicapped and weighed 300 lbs. They are always the ones with the biggest mouths making all the threats.


    The pictures of that guy (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 06:11:39 PM EST
    in his camo and in the wild could be switched with some of my relatives FB posts and no one would notice.

    Seriously (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 06:01:14 PM EST
    I think attorneys here in GA reccommend not leaving the state if you are charged with a crime, no alchol and lay low until you go to court.

    Jury selection for Christmas (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 06:24:48 PM EST
    On the same day that Robbie Robertson died (none / 0) (#23)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2023 at 07:33:37 PM EST
    so did Sixto Diaz Rodriguez, a/k/a "Rodriguez" and "Sugarman." A Mexican immigrant who became a cult folk-rocker of c. 1970. He was rediscovered about ten years ago by a investigative filmmaker, with an Oscar-winning documentary ("Searching for Sugarman") that explored his fans, earlier false rumors of his death, his unexpected following in South Africa, and his post-stardom life as a Detroit construction worker.

    The judge speaks (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 10:01:24 AM EST

    "What the effects on the political campaign are, are not before me and will not influence me here. This is a criminal trial-brought at the time the prosecution was ready to bring charges. I don't have any control over that. I cannot and and will not factor in my decisions on whether it will effect a political campaign on either side."

    Also (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 11:32:17 AM EST

    The more a party makes inflammatory statements... the greater the urgency will be that we proceed to trial quickly... to ensure an impartial jury."

    -- Judge Tanya Chutkan

    Any other defendant, even a rich one (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Peter G on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:50:00 PM EST
    with excellent lawyers, would be sent to jail to await trial over those social media posts.

    Yes, (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 11:53:56 AM EST
    Armando says that it's unlikely he's put in jail but very likely she gives him huuugge sanctions and keeps moving up the trial date if he can't keep his mouth shut.

    And we all know he won't be able to keep his mouth shut. Personally being very vindictive when it comes to the organe clown, I would give him an ankle bracelet and make him stay in assigned rooms in Mar A lardo and make sure none of those rooms were the ones where he could interact with the public.


    Personally, I'm thinking long-term ... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 02:10:19 PM EST
    ... and down the road. So, I'll just put this out there: If he's found guilty, Donald Trump has to do hard time. I'll concede that locking him up in a federal facility with the rest on the prison population is likely problematic but at the very least, a rigorous and extended term of well-monitored home confinement is necessary.

    Now, that does not mean it gets to be a home of Trump's own choosing. Frankly, I think a 4-BR, 3 BA ranch house on a tumbleweed-prone 25-acre property just outside of Elko, NV would suffice quite nicely. And by "rigorous" and "well-monitored," I would expect that to include no access to the internet or social media, and a strict time regimen for allowing visitors, just like you'd see at ADX Florence or any other federal corrections facility.

    Because if Trump is allowed to skate on the consequences and punishment even if he's found guilty of felonious conduct by a jury, we will have demonstrated conclusively that there are indeed two parallel tracks of justice in America - one for the well-to-do (if not necessarily well-mannered) and one for everybody else.

    If the MAGA folks that Trump inspired to engage in insurrection and were convicted for it have to do hard time, then so should he.



    The top Watergate defendants, for example (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Peter G on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:21:01 PM EST
    served their sentences in "community confinement" in surplus officers' quarters on a military base. Given Tr*mp's legal entitlement to Secret Service protection, I think that is what would happen to him if sentenced to "imprisonment." No more than 10% of a federal prison sentence may, by law, be served in home confinement. But any secure place, other than a person's or family member's home, can be designated by the Bureau of Prisons as a place of "community confinement" for any or all of a sentence.

    Don't you think (none / 0) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:27:35 PM EST
    He will most likely be dead by natural causes before any of that could happen.  

    Unless he is in jail while appealing?


    Come to think of it (none / 0) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:29:39 PM EST
    Would he be jailed while appealing any of all those convictions

    Most of my practice is federal criminal appeals (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Peter G on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 04:00:02 PM EST
    for recently convicted defendants. Most but not all are denied bail pending appeal. The presumption is against release, but the judge has a lot of discretion in a non-violent, non-CP, non-drug case. This is a complex area of federal criminal procedure, and then, in the end, the letter of the law often does not control the outcome. I often tell clients, in all candor, that no aspect of the entire crazy system they are enmeshed in is less predictable than who will and who will not get bail pending appeal.

    I knew (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 04:16:10 PM EST
    you were the person to ask

    That should say (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:31:39 PM EST
    appealing any OR all

    I did not know that. (none / 0) (#53)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 04:58:17 PM EST
    Peter G: "No more than 10% of a federal prison sentence may, by law, be served in home confinement."

    Thank you. That's all the more reason to send Trump into exile at that aforementioned ranch house outside Elko, NV if convicted.



    How about (none / 0) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 07:21:24 PM EST
    a remote part of Alaska?

    Sure, absolutely. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Aug 12, 2023 at 04:24:15 AM EST
    In fact, I know just the place, about halfway between Skagway and Juneau.

    The combined import of (none / 0) (#58)
    by Peter G on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 07:30:30 PM EST
    18 USC 3624(c)(2) and 18 USC 3621(b).

    All I want (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 02:22:13 PM EST
    is for him to be convicted.  I want to see MAGATs forced to see him as a defeated con man.  I would love to see his wealth taken to compensate the people he screwed over the years.

    He's 77 and he has all the lawyers money can buy.  The sad truth is any confinement would probably not be anything a normal person would call prison.

    And I don't care.  After he is shamed and convicted he can live and die in a studio in The Villages for all I care.


    No No No! (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 03:52:53 PM EST
    I want him to go to prison. I want him to experience the humiliation of a strip search, of having to bend over and cough, of being told to lift his sac to the left (or right). I want him to be told to run his fingers through his hair and open his mouth and roll his tongue. (Yes I have been booked into jail). I want this guy to wear an orange jumpsuit, be told when to eat, how to eat and what to eat.

    I was just thinking last night ... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 02:56:55 PM EST
    ... that Donald Trump has been a celebrity tycoon, media personality and pompous a$$hat for going on what, over 40 years now? And yet, we're only just now fully realizing how truly awful, terrible and depraved a character he actually is.

    I share your sentiments. I want to see Trump both humiliated and ruined - and if he also bankrupts his wife and children as a result, well, that's just an added bonus which I'm quite sure we can all live with and say that's not our problem.



    As an NYC resident all through the 80s (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:07:54 PM EST
    I must take issue with

    only just now fully realizing

    I held the full page ad calling for the death penalty for 5 innocent teenagers in my hands.  He was not just know as a short fingered vulgarian.  

    He was a crook.  Everyone knew it.  Hillary, god bless her, knew it and tried to tell the country.

    His depravity was not a secret.  The APPRENTICE just gave it a shine.


    I just never paid much if any attention ... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:17:01 PM EST
    ... to him back then, I guess. From the moment I first heard him, I considered him to be just another vainglorious blowhard who was chasing Andy Warhol's fifteen minutes and didn't care who he stepped on or over to get it.

    I tried to tell (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 07:20:43 PM EST
    people. I told them I knew people in NY and would be glad for the people in NY to talk to them. It was like hitting brick with rubber. The truest thing Trump said was he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue.

    Trump is going to be on trial (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 12:45:36 PM EST
    next year before the election.  That much seems clear.  

    That's going to make him lose it.


    Yes (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 01:58:38 PM EST
    and the sooner we get it over the better IMO.

    Yes (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 01:58:39 PM EST
    and the sooner we get it over the better IMO.

    Two Big Questions (none / 0) (#42)
    by RickyJim on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:13:22 PM EST
    1. If he is convicted before the Republican National Convention, will he still be the nominee?
    2. If he is not the Republican nominee, will he run as an independent?

    2 (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:23:25 PM EST
    Excellent questions

    The answer (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 07:19:24 PM EST
    to 2 is definitely no unless he runs under no labels or some other existing organization. He's too damn lazy to get his name on the ballot. I would expect that he will just sit on the sidelines and take potshots at the GOP nominee and tell his voters to sit home.

    The first question is a real headscratcher. They talked about replacing Trump as the GOP nominee in 2016 but didn't have the gumption to do it. I wonder if they wouldn't let him run from jail.


    He would totally (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 07:36:11 PM EST
    do a write in campaign

    Yeah (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 07:48:50 PM EST
    I can see him telling his minions to do that.

    Protective order issued (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 02:31:25 PM EST
    Good. (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 03:13:06 PM EST
    I'm now reading the proceeding transcript, and almost from the opening moment when defense counsel John Lauro said, "We're asking the government to show good cause," Judge Tanya Chutkan made it perfectly clear to him very quickly that she, and not Donald Trump, will be the sole and final arbiter of his First Amendment rights while he is a criminal defendant awaiting trial:

    John Lauro: "We're asking the government to show good cause. Your honor designated those items under rule 16 and case law - extrajudicial speech, or public speech is not one of the good cause factor."

    Judge Chutkan: "It is if that speech causes witness intimidation or harassment. It must always yield. Mr. Trump, like every American, has a first amendment right to free speech. But that right is not absolute."

    Lauro: "We don't have a normal situation."

    Judge: "What about a situation where a person is denigrating a witness? What is meant to protect that from happening?"

    Lauro: "Obviously since prosecutors brought this case in the middle of campaign, Trump has right to respond to political opponents."

    Judge: "But that has to yield. Regardless of what is going on with his, I hate to say, his day job, this is a criminal case. The need for this to proceed in normal order and protect witnesses, integrity of process means there are going to be limits on defendant's speech."

    Lauro: "My client can't be subject to a contempt trap."

    Judge: "What we're talking about here are the parameters of this order. What we're all considering means there are certain things, if they have impact on the administration of justice or witnesses, can't be said regardless of what political activity the defendant is engaged in."

    Lauro: "If my client has a memory of something on the campaign trail that he wants to talk about, he's entitled to speak about it."

    Judge: "No, he can't speak about details of the case he's being tried on."

    Too bad Trump's presence wasn't required, so she could say it to his face.



    If he has any brains (none / 0) (#57)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2023 at 07:23:23 PM EST
    he should never mention the name Mike Pence again. Besides his minions are already doing a job on Pence.

    Incoming I guess on DeSantis forever at this point. He definitely can go after DeSantis or any others running in the GOP primary since none of them appear to be witnesses. Though Christie has said some things that make me believe he has evidence against Trump and has said that Trump told him he lost the election.


    Tv (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2023 at 06:31:20 PM EST
    Good tv has been hard to find but tomorrow there is a 2 episode season finale for the series Domina on MGM (the channel formerly known as EPIX).

    It's very good.  If you were a fan of the classic I, Claudius it's about the scheming grandmother of Claudius, Livia.  Played well by Sian Phillips on the BBC.  Given a lot more depth here.

    This is kind of funny. (none / 0) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 13, 2023 at 09:45:57 AM EST
    The guy is not bad but I don't think fat shaming is a great way to the hearts of most country music fans.

    At least not the point ones I know.
    Of course he does specifically call out the obese on welfare so I could be wrong.

    Right-Wing Influencers Just Found Their Favorite New Country Song
    In "Rich Men North of Richmond," a singing farmer in Virginia blasts high taxes and obese people on welfare, and even appears to allude to Jeffrey Epstein

    Oopsie (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 12:30:27 PM EST
    I think (none / 0) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 12:57:31 PM EST
    they already voted on that charge but aren't ready to announce it yet.

    The document in question (none / 0) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 01:24:06 PM EST
    I just read this F'up could accelerate things (none / 0) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 01:34:20 PM EST
    Supposedly at least one witness scheduled for tomorrow is testifying today.

    Oh boy oh boy


    There is (none / 0) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 01:51:40 PM EST
    also the fact that Geoff Duncan was supposed to testify tomorrow and he's the one that Trump issued the threat to. He and George Chidi were scheduled tomorrow Jen Jordan and Bee Nyguen today. Now all are today.

    I'm ready (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 02:11:13 PM EST
    Are you ready

    YES!!! (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 02:18:04 PM EST
    It has been so darn long!!!

    I am still mad at most of the Republicans too for their behavior. Most of them are just horrible people who won't be indicted.

    Something about Rudy's testimony to the legislature is going to be in the indictment judging by Jordan and Nyguen testifying. They were in the hearing with Rudy when he was pushing propaganda.

    Fani may make you the happiest because she's probably gonna be the first one to indict Rudy. I think Jack is getting him too but he won't be first.


    Grounds for Recusal? (none / 0) (#70)
    by RickyJim on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 01:01:44 PM EST
    Last October, when sentencing Christine Priola of Ohio to 15 months in jail, Judge Chutkan made a seemingly gratuitous reference to Trump:
    I see the videotapes. I see the footage of the flags and the signs that people were carrying and the hats that they were wearing, and the garb, and the people who mobbed that Capitol were there in fealty, in loyalty to one man, not to the Constitution, of which most of the people who come before me seem woefully ignorant; not to the ideals of this county and not to the principles of democracy. It's blind loyalty to one person who, by the way, remains free to this day.

    In adversarial jury trials, judges have less impact on the outcome than the skills of the lawyers involved, so I doubt the defense will accomplish much by getting a new judge.

    Judge Chutkan's comments mentioning j6ers' (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 02:59:52 PM EST
    loyalty to Tr*mp at the sentencing of a J6 defendant, and the fact that up to that date he had not been held accountable, based entirely (and fairly) on the evidence she heard and saw at that defendant's trial, is not grounds for recusal. It is not unusual for judges to hear related cases and thus to be exposed to evidence bearing on another, future defendant in the course of hearing the present defendant's case. I have been in that situation -- and tried to challenge it. Unsuccessfully. The ruling against us was that as long as my client had full access to, and the opportunity to respond to, all the evidence the judge heard about him, and there was no clear showing that the court had pre-judged his case, then he was treated fairly.

    Just my (none / 0) (#73)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 01:49:56 PM EST
    opinion but if there isn't enough to remove Aileen Cannon after her acting as Trump's legal counsel and getting smacked down by the appeals court, that is going to do exactly nothing.

    Word on the street (none / 0) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 01:54:57 PM EST
    is Fani is indicting today.

    Whenever it happens (none / 0) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 02:27:28 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#80)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 03:01:17 PM EST
    and trials are allowed to be televised in GA so every person who goes to trial we can watch. We'll probably be watching on and off for years.

    If (none / 0) (#81)
    by FlJoe on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 03:19:19 PM EST
    it's a the sprawling RICO case everybody is talking about and the already crowded calendar I don't see how this case until well after the election

    I don't know (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 03:30:32 PM EST
    how full the Fulton calendar is but I do know seeing convictions reported on the TV about cases I had forgetten existed because they were like 2 years prior. On this case I would imagine some will take a plea bargain. Some of the state cases might happen before the election but I don't imagine any of the big names like Rudy or Trump are going to be sitting in a courtroom until early 2025.

    He (none / 0) (#83)
    by FlJoe on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 03:44:12 PM EST
    is already penciled in for most of next year between DC, West Palm and Manhattan and the election if he won the nomination.

    Of course it would get really interesting if Trump somehow loses the nomination, then we can hope for non stop court action all the way thru the election and beyond.

    Unless h was to declare third party to buy himself some time, even better.


    Okay. So you (none / 0) (#86)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 04:00:32 PM EST
    are talking about Trump's calendar not Fulton County.

    He won't run 3rd party unless it is something like No Labels--something he can coopt and doesn't require any work on his part.


    He (none / 0) (#87)
    by FlJoe on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 04:21:09 PM EST
    doesn't need to work at it, he just needs to announce it to delay the judicial process and keep the grift going.

    It would actually be in his interest not to run help a Repug win so he can get his pardon, but trump is way beyond rationality at this point.


    Well (none / 0) (#88)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 05:57:08 PM EST
    I would think he would need an actual 3rd party for that grift. Of course there are a number of minor parties that might be willing to take him on. Maybe the Greens would consider him.

    And every (none / 0) (#89)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 05:58:13 PM EST
    GOP candidate needs to be asked if they will pardon Trump. A lot of them have already said they would.

    And every (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 05:58:14 PM EST
    GOP candidate needs to be asked if they will pardon Trump. A lot of them have already said they would.

    The judge (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 03:50:23 PM EST
    is talking about the actual handing up (or down or whatever) of the indictment.  Today.

    They just basically confirmed on CNN (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 06:25:25 PM EST
    that the accidental leak of that doc caused them to decide to keep the GJ in the room and do it before the members could hear about in media reports.

    It's coming tonight.

    McBurney (none / 0) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 06:39:12 PM EST
    the judge has been told to stay for another hour. So yes, it is coming tonight probably between 8-8:30.

    I'm (none / 0) (#93)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 06:57:20 PM EST
    Grand Jury (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 07:11:00 PM EST
    is now voting on indictments.

    They should do that smoke thing (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 07:18:19 PM EST
    they do with the Pope.

    Orange smoke means indictment.


    We are live (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 07:54:20 PM EST
    Turn on your tv

    The Washington Post reported at 9:45 (none / 0) (#97)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 09:41:11 PM EST
    that it "could take a few hours" for the names of those indicted and on what charges to be unsealed. I am sure that the names of the grand jurors will remain secret, for their protection. So perhaps we will know the details of the charges in the morning. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution also appears to be a well-informed and reliable source.

    We will know tonight (none / 0) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 09:51:52 PM EST
    The world is waiting for this thing to be released.  It will be released tonight.

    They said 3 hours about 2 hours ago.


    Fani Willis is going to speak (none / 0) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 09:53:30 PM EST

    It's up (none / 0) (#101)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 09:56:02 PM EST
    Trump is indicted among others

    18 (none / 0) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 09:58:57 PM EST
    Others.  All the stars we expected.
    41 counts

    Mark Meadows (none / 0) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 10:02:17 PM EST

    Looks like (none / 0) (#104)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 10:23:05 PM EST

    run Lindsey, (none / 0) (#107)
    by leap2 on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 10:40:06 PM EST
    You can read it yourself (none / 0) (#106)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 10:40:06 PM EST
    here, in a 85-page PDF (plus a dozen more non-substantive pages of this and that). Additional co-defendants include Giuliani, Jeffrey Clark, John Eastman, Jenna Ellis, Sidney Powell, Kenneth Chesebro, and Mike Roman. Not Graham, not Epshteyn.

    I just put up a a thread about it (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 11:05:37 PM EST
    so Let's take the discussion there, thanks!

    The Washington Post reported at 9:45 (none / 0) (#98)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 09:41:12 PM EST
    that it "could take a few hours" for the names of those indicted and on what charges to be unsealed. I am sure that the names of the grand jurors will remain secret, for their protection. So perhaps we will know the details of the charges in the morning. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution also appears to be a well-informed and reliable source.

    One of Tr*mp's Georgia criminal defense (none / 0) (#105)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 10:26:42 PM EST
    lawyers is my friend (possibly J's also) Drew Findling, a former president of the National Ass'n of Criminal Defense Lawyers and a really good attorney (even if he does tend to collect celebrity clients, particularly top rappers). He is personally no Tr*mper, and I would not expect him to be out there saying stupid stuff.

    Here's a New Yorker article (none / 0) (#109)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Aug 14, 2023 at 11:23:25 PM EST
    about Drew representing Trump.

    Given they are on such opposite sides of the political landscape, I'm sure Drew got a very hefty retainer to be on call for Trump. Now we'll see if it was big enough for him to actually enter an appearance in the case.

    I don't think Trump is anywhere near as interesting to Drew as his other clients, like Offset and Cardi B.

    But yes, I'd expect him to be out there making denials for Trump. And yes, I agree, he's a really good trial lawyer. But Trump isn't going to go to any trial.

    I can't believe Drew is 63. I still picture him (and his wife Beth) as 40-ish. For those reading, Peter, Drew and I all served many years on the NACDL Board of Directors, which met four times a year in cities all around the country. As board members, we essentially spent four weekends a year together, at the same hotel, sharing dinners, debating policy, going to concerts, all with a great sense of comraderie, as well as attending the board meetings.


    For the record, I have to clarify (none / 0) (#110)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 15, 2023 at 01:43:36 PM EST
    that I was actually never a member of the NACDL board of directors. I was (and am) a committee chair or co-chair, a member of many Task Forces, a Life member, and a national award winner. I even attended many of those meetings. So, I was a very active member, perhaps even a "leader" (in a non-officer sense). But I never ran for and never served on the Board like Jeralyn did (as did Drew).

    agree (none / 0) (#111)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 15, 2023 at 01:51:46 PM EST
    Here, the grand jury foreman's name is always redacted and the names of the other grand jurors is not disclosed

    Well, that was predictable (none / 0) (#128)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 24, 2023 at 12:13:23 PM EST
    Drew Findling is out as lead counsel for Tr*mp in the Fulton County case, and another lawyer (Steve Sadow) is in. I doubt we will ever find out why. I certainly hope (and tend to assume) that Drew got a healthy retainer, and that it is non-refundable.

    I guess they couldn't get him to (none / 0) (#122)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Aug 23, 2023 at 01:48:58 PM EST
    stand near a window long enough.

    CNN and MSNBC are reporting that a plane that may have contained Prigozhin has crashed in Russia while traveling between Moscow and St. Petersburg.

    Yevgeny Prigozhin, (none / 0) (#123)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 23, 2023 at 01:54:17 PM EST
    head of the Wagner Russian military group, and leader of the attempted coup against the Putin government, was among 10 crew and passengers in a fatal crash north of Moscow.

    Prigozhin's private jet was headed to St. Petersburg from Moscow. The jet may have fallen down stairs or out of a window, the cause has not yet been determined.

    The only surprises are (a) how long it took and (b) that 9 others (crew and passengers) would get on a plane with Yevgeny.  I would have guessed most would have bowed out...no you guys go on ahead, I have to pick something up the wife has been wanting for our dacha.I'll catch the next flight, thanks.

    Someone should have warned him.. (none / 0) (#124)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 23, 2023 at 02:26:25 PM EST
    about flying in a plane with only one wing.

    It turns out (none / 0) (#125)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 23, 2023 at 03:19:56 PM EST
    It's not clear he was on the plane.  There was 2 planes.  He MIGHT have been on the other one.
    Also they say they found 8 bodies in the wreckage.  There was supposed to be 10.

    Xhitter (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 23, 2023 at 04:44:36 PM EST

    Telegram channels associated with the PMC #Wagner appealed to the government of the Russian Federation.

    The mercenaries said that if the death of the head of the PMC Wagner #Prigozhin was confirmed, they would organise a second "March of Justice" to #Moscow

    All I can say (none / 0) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 23, 2023 at 06:12:26 PM EST
    is it would be interesting if he turned up alive.

    So I (none / 0) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 28, 2023 at 05:25:22 AM EST
    took a Facebook cruise around MAGA that I know and they loathed the debate one saying I could only take 15 minutes and the other saying he lasted an hour before shutting it off. Apparently even they thought the debate was bad but their reasons I don't know.

    I'm sorry (none / 0) (#130)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 28, 2023 at 04:40:17 PM EST
    but what a shameless, pandering, slimeball Ramaswamy is to keep bringing up "the Nashville shooting in a Christian school" as if that were the only mass shooting in the last year. He even brought it up when he was questioned about the recent shooting in Jacksonville.

    It's somewhat astonishing that more people don't see through that nonsense.

    I get that the Trump Effect lowered the critical thinking bar into the dirt, but come on.

    This just shows (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by jmacWA on Tue Aug 29, 2023 at 05:07:41 AM EST
    the overwhelming success of the GOP 40+ year campaign to dumb down Americans.

    They'd cut off (none / 0) (#133)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 31, 2023 at 03:50:29 PM EST
    one of their limbs with a chainsaw if they thought it would "own the libs."