Hamas Attacks Israel, Israel Says It Is At War

Hamas today launched the biggest strike against Israel since the 1973 Yom Kippur war -- and maybe since 1948. Israel has responded, saying "We are at War."

Some guests on CNN said this is a massive failure of intelligence by Israel. Others said because the Palestinians don't use cell phones and have gone off the electronic grid to avoid being tracked, Israel has never been able to conduct surveillance inside Gaza. That sounds like a weak explanation to me. What value is their intelligence if it can't detect imminent danger from its enemies?

Hamas must have been planning this strike for months, or even longer. It clearly wasn't a "fly by the seat of your pants" kind of attack. [More...]

Hamas sent 150 rockets just to Tel Aviv. CNN said 200 Israelis were killed in the Hamas strike.

One former official said Hamas wants this to turn into a regional war because it feels like its voice hasn't been heard.

Hamas has taken dozens of hostages, including civilians. Social media is filled with videos of them.

Hezbollah in Lebanon is supporting Hamas' strike on Israel. The rest of the world, including countries in the Middle East, are urging ceasefires and condemning the attacks by Hamas on civilians.

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    This was (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 08, 2023 at 02:12:15 PM EST
    horrific. Bibi apparently left the area unpatrolled due to using security forces on the courts. The GOP thinks repeating a lie over and over about all this will help them. Most people are calling out their lies.

    Seems we hear more and more (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 08, 2023 at 03:54:50 PM EST
    about "massive intelligence failures".  Makes you wonder how secure you are.

    I agree it seems impossible this scale of an operation could really go undetected.

    They said J6 was a massive intelligence failure.  But it really wasn't.  Plenty of people knew they just didn't do anything about it.

    That this could happen just as Bibi is trying to launce his autocracy seems like oddly timed.  Maybe people are fighting back in different ways.  

    I think you can assume nothing will ever be the same there.  Maybe that was the goal.

    Bibi (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 08, 2023 at 08:10:13 PM EST
    also pulled the majority of security forces from the area to go to the west bank for his pet project. He basically left the area unguarded.

    9/11 was called a massive security failure but George W. Bush disbanded the terrorism task force. So was it really a failure?


    The Gaza strip has been (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 08, 2023 at 03:57:00 PM EST
    referred to several times in the last few days as the world's largest open air prison.

    What did they think was going to happen?

    The Palestinian people (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by ruffian on Mon Oct 09, 2023 at 03:25:59 PM EST
    are held hostage by both sides. They have no say and no way out.

    by both sides yet they only murder the people on one "side."

    Rather transparently, you changed (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by Peter G on Sun Oct 15, 2023 at 09:42:18 PM EST
    what Ruffian said in order to challenge it. The Palestinians, as a people, are held hostage by both sides (that is, by Hamas and by Israel). But it is not the Palestinians, as such, who murder Israelis, it is Hamas (and similar terrorists), a small and unrepresentative political/religious group of Palestinians. Yet it is the Palestinians, as a whole, who will suffer for Hamas's latest outrages. That is a major part of the current tragedy. When we pretend only to see the tragedy on the Israeli side, we deny our full humanity.

    Huh. I read both CH's and Ruff's (none / 0) (#29)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun Oct 15, 2023 at 10:38:17 PM EST
    comments to say, accurately imo, that the Gaza Strip is "held hostage on both sides" in an "open air prison" by Israel and Egypt.

    If they meant Hamas and Israel, I would definitely have responded differently...


    The other "side" here (none / 0) (#30)
    by Peter G on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 12:25:07 PM EST
    is clearly not Egypt, but if you thought that was what anyone was saying, ok then.

    And no one said (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Peter G on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 12:27:31 PM EST
    "on both sides." The prior comment was "by both sides," which has an entirely different meaning.

    And one that I clearly missed. My appologies.

    For my part (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 12:50:59 PM EST
    I intended to suggest Israel was the warden of the open air prison.  I suppose Hammas holds them hostage in the sense we are all held hostage by terrorists.

    IMO it is Israel that controls Gaza.  Just not as much as they thought.  


    I thought I had read that Hamas won (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Peter G on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 06:44:45 PM EST
    the last election (a decade and a half ago) to be the governing authority in Gaza by a plurality, and then refused to allow another election since. Instead, they rule by (para)military force. That's another way of holding the population hostage. But as you say, it is all at the mercy of what Israel allows, particularly with the sealed border.

    I did not know that about authority (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 07:01:37 PM EST
    or I forgot it.

    But I doubt their control is mostly governmental.


    What I Find Scary (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by RickyJim on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 07:05:35 PM EST
    "It is an entire nation out there that is responsible," Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It's absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat."

    This whole article makes me fearful that in order to "destroy Hamas" the population of Gaza may be at least decimated.


    Like they need (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 07:17:44 PM EST
    to destroy the village in order to save it?

    I don't mean to be glib.  I think your fear is entirely valid.  I think that speaker is also framing.  I don't doubt everyday Palestinians might know what Hamas does. Generally. I doubt they try that hard to hide what they do.  
    What should the do about it? As I understand they are the police.
    Herzog is framing.  Justifying collateral damage.


    This is not a "war." A war is a conflict (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Peter G on Sun Oct 08, 2023 at 04:02:31 PM EST
    (just or unjust (per rules of theology or public morality), lawful or unlawful (per international law)) between two nations. Bush's "Global War on Terror" was not properly speaking a war, nor is Israel's response to military-style attacks from Hamas. Hamas is not a nation state, nor (alas) is the territory that it (sort of) governs.

    Deliberate targeting of civilians (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Peter G on Tue Oct 10, 2023 at 03:16:14 PM EST
    and civilian areas is unlawful, unjustifiable and unacceptable, whether done by a nation-state (such as Israel) or by anti-colonial resistance fighters (or terrorists - the vocabulary is immaterial). And retaliating for attacks by targeting entire neighborhoods or towns ("collective punishment") is utterly out of bounds. If, as Israel claims, it is waging "war," then that is a war crime. Either way it is unlawful and inhumane.

    The cable news coverage of this (5.00 / 3) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 10, 2023 at 04:55:22 PM EST
    is bad.  Really bad.  The bias is almost funny.  

    Very little attention to your points.  And even more troubling is the way internet media and social media are either all in for Israel or Israel is evil.

    This is producing unproductive dialogue

    Sites that have been mostly friendly and civil are not really


    Biden is saying the right things (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 10, 2023 at 04:59:16 PM EST
    Doesn't represent the Palistinians. (1.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sun Oct 22, 2023 at 10:39:30 AM EST

    That would certainly be nice if it were true.  There a few facts the indicate that may not be true.

    1. Hamas won the election in 2006 to represent the Gazans.

    2. Since 2006 Hamas has been running the education system in Gaza.

    3. In the wake of the Einsatzgruppen like attacks on Oct 7 there has been nary a word of reported protest against Hamas among Gazans.

    4. The Palestinian diaspora has likewise failed to protest Hamas.  

    Well, let's (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 24, 2023 at 05:35:51 PM EST

    1. There hasn't been an election since 2006. If we had that here everybody would think we agreed with George W. Bush because he would still be president.

    2. People don't protest in autocratic regimes. Protest means sure death. Look what happened in Iran? People protested and then were put to death.

    However I am not surprised that a conservative doesn't understand autocracy because it is what they want for America.

    And let's (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 24, 2023 at 05:37:34 PM EST
    not forget that it was the stated goal of Likkud Bibi's party to elevate Hamas.

    And let's (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 24, 2023 at 05:37:34 PM EST
    not forget that it was the stated goal of Likkud Bibi's party to elevate Hamas.

    Absolutely. (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Oct 31, 2023 at 02:40:08 PM EST
    GA6thDem: "People don't protest in autocratic regimes. Protest means sure death. Look what happened in Iran? People protested and then were put to death."

    Young women in Iran have been beaten to death by the Morality Police because they were supposedly wearing their hijabs incorrectly.

    Thank Heavens we're not so backward here in America, where House Speaker Mike Johnson merely wants to first imprison physicians who provide abortion services care to women in need and then declare homosexuality illegal.



    Iran under the Shah, as well as more than once under the current regime.  Other countries also, including several in eastern Europe in Soviet times.

    The big tell is zero protest of Hamas Einsatzgruppen tactics by the Palestinian diaspora.

    The Palestinian demonstration at the Sydney opera house chanting "gas the Jews" does not count as an anti-Hamas protest.


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 29, 2023 at 04:19:37 PM EST
    Go after your buds the Saudis then and quit trying to punish everyone. Genocide is never the answer though it seems most conservatives believe it is.

    Rational discussion of this highly fraught topic (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Peter G on Sun Oct 29, 2023 at 04:43:05 PM EST
    is not facilitated by the use by either side of inaccurate Nazi analogies, such as "Einsatzgruppen tactics" and "genocide." I know what "Einsatzgruppen tactics" are; in July 1943, a German SS unit supported by local collaborators entered the Latvian village that was home to the few relatives (on my mother's side) who had not emigrated to the U.S. 50 years earlier, or who had emigrated but then decided to return. As part of a systematic campaign being carried out over that summer and fall, the Nazi Einsatzgruppen ordered all the Jews (once 40% of the population there) to gather at the neighboring woods, where all but a handful were shot to death. (Those who survived, including one of my great-aunts, did so by luck.) The horrifying and inexcusable Hamas attack on October 7 was at best only superficially similar. Likewise, Israel's murderous retaliatory attack on Gaza, which will inevitably kill (and is killing) thousands of innocent civilians (out of a population of some 7.5 million Palestinians, including 2.2 million in Gaza) does not reflect any official policy to exterminate all or nearly all of a social, national or religious group. Genocide is a crime against humanity of sui generis severity. The term should not be degraded by casual misuse, even to describe other (but categorically different) horrors.

    I don't think you (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Oct 29, 2023 at 06:05:20 PM EST
    Understood what I meant. I was not saying Israel is committing genocide. I was pointing out that conservatives seem to think it is the answer much like it was what they advocated after 911. Israel has a right to respond. I just hope the civilian deaths are minimal.

    However I can understand what you are saying.


    Inaccurate Nazi analogies (2.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Nov 02, 2023 at 04:13:02 PM EST

    Comparing Oct7 to Einsatzgruppen is inaccurate to the extent that the Nazis were ashamed of what they were doing and tried to hide it. Hamas OTOH was happy to let the world know with audio and video some of which was live streaming. Shooting a child in the head is pretty much the same for both.

    I expect Netanyahu to lay waste (5.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Oct 08, 2023 at 06:15:24 PM EST
    to Gaza. And then turn the West Bank into the new open air prison. This was going to happen eventually with current right wing government in Israel.

    At one point Israel (none / 0) (#16)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 09, 2023 at 06:55:28 PM EST
    calculated, with Germanic precision, how many calories Gazans would require to keep them just above starvation level.

    What did they think would be the eventual result of that kind of thing?


    Enough to eat (none / 0) (#57)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Sat Oct 28, 2023 at 08:30:19 AM EST

    Is Israel ensuring enough food enters Gaza so no one starves an example of a war crime?

    Just enough food (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Sat Oct 28, 2023 at 01:35:29 PM EST
    so no one starves. How libertarian of them.

    I think we should do that with Red States here. They seem to have a problem with obesity anyway.


    Mistake to Overreact (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by john horse on Wed Oct 11, 2023 at 06:15:20 PM EST
    What terrorists hope for is for the government they are attacking to overreact, such as by collective punishment on the Palestinians.  That will play right into their hands.

    Seems this is (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 11, 2023 at 06:31:42 PM EST
    clearly planed around expected over reaction

    President Biden and Secretary Blinken (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by KeysDan on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 06:15:48 PM EST
    have been working to dissuade Israel of a response to the Hamas terrorist attack of a disproportionate response.

    Bu what would be proportionate response, especially in a situation that is layered with the rage of what happened, why it happened and how it happened.

    So far, it seems that response is indiscriminate old-fashioned warfare---siege with turning off of water, food and supplies and a "pulling up of the drawbridges", updated by undefined aerial bombing.  Given the necessary objectives of freeing hostages, saving human shields and eliminating Hamas the actions occurring and contemplated appear more furor-based than strategic.

    Surely a more creative response could be fashioned that deploys information technologies, intelligence and diplomacy.  Time, in and of itself, is a resource allowing more temperate tactics such as continued postponement of military incursion of Gaza along with establishment of of a competent and peaceful governing entity to replace the despicable  rule of Hamas.  

    A tall order but, in my view, one with a more promising outcome.  The invitation of President Biden to come to the area (probably already of his way) is an encouraging and more innovative step, particularly if the visit is conditioned on humanitarian relief such as restoration of utilities, food and medical supplies. A stop off at the Egyptian border would also be a welcome development.

    Here are my thoughts, for what it's worth: (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Oct 19, 2023 at 03:22:49 AM EST
    1. By engaing in the wanton slaughter of unarmed Israeli civilians, including elderly and children, Hamas is guilty of a crime against humanity.

    2. Israel has every right to defend itself against such barbarity, up to and including seeking the removal of Hamas from Gaza, just as the PLO was expelled from Lebanon through military evacuation to Tunisia 40 years ago following the Israeli invasion.      

    3. Israel's oppressive occupation of the West Bank and its continued encouragement of illegal Jewish settlement and squatting in recognized Palestinian lands is the root source of the present conflict.

    4. Prime Miniter Benjamin Netanyahu's government, which has been in power for most of the last 17 years, placed Israelis at needless risk by imposing Apartheid-like conditions upon Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza and further, scuttling any and all attempts at even discussing a potential two-state solution.

    5. Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 are not mutually exclusive points. The pathway to peace lies in addressing each of them with an honest and forthright effort.


    The Israeli hard-right (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jondee on Thu Oct 19, 2023 at 04:03:46 PM EST
    is only interested in reestablishing the so-called "Biblical Land of Israel" and in keeping whatever straggling Palestinians remain on the equivalent of reservations; but with less rights and sovereignty than First Nation folks have.

    The idiotic Christian-right and hardcore Zionst crowd in the U.S is almost as culpable for this state of affairs as the Israeli Right is, imo.

    Hopefully Jihadist types in other parts of the world won't spin this as an attack on Muslims everywhere, but they probably will and the blow-back could be a nightmarish.


    Israel's March of Folly (none / 0) (#50)
    by john horse on Sat Oct 21, 2023 at 09:10:12 AM EST
    The pathway to peace lies in addressing each of them with an honest and forthright effort.

    After reading Don from Hawaii's rational analysis of the situation in Israel/Palestine, I was reminded of Barbara Tuchman's book The March of Folly.

    Tuchman explores  "one of the most compelling paradoxes of history: the pursuit by governments of policies contrary to their own interests".

    There is no doubt in my mind that forcing people from  their homes and collective punishment is counterproductive.  It will destabilize Palestinian society further which will only increase support for terrorist groups like Hamas.

    Israel is not on a pathway to peace but is instead, alas, on a march of folly.


    Anthon;y Bourdain... (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by desertswine on Sun Oct 29, 2023 at 12:34:24 AM EST
    Parts Unknown: Jerusalem, west bank. gaza 2013

    It's easily the most contentious piece of real estate in the world and there's no hope, none, of ever talking about it without pissing somebody if not everybody off. Maybe that's why its taken me so long to come here.  AB

    I have come to believe (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Oct 31, 2023 at 06:00:18 PM EST
    the Hamas attack was something Netanyahu has embraced. It's the opening he has always wanted. To wipe out as many Palestinian as possible.

    They are telling people to go south, then bombing them there. They bombed a refugee camp. They are wiping out hospitals.

    This scorched earth policy is going to bite Israel in rear over the long term. It's not just the Muslim world turning on them. They are losing goodwill around the world.

    The Hamas attack was horrible and barbaric. But nonetheless, somewhat a long time in coming.

    Hamas, apparently, (none / 0) (#8)
    by KeysDan on Sun Oct 08, 2023 at 10:28:18 PM EST
    has feared support from the larger Arab world slipping away inexorably.  Discussions of accords between Saudi Arabia and the U.S. with agreements and recognition of Israel by the Saudis may  have been the straw that broke the camel's back.  

    We can only hope that the horrors of the Hamas attack and those to come an be contained and a level-heads will achieve a cease fire,  Many opportunists ready to seize upon this tragedy.

    A cease fire would surprise me (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 09, 2023 at 10:44:58 AM EST
    Im honestly a little tired of hearing how this is so terrible for Isralies specifically because they just feel any loss of an Israeli life so personally and deeply.

    Haven't heard a single bobblehead say this about the Palestinians.  I wonder if they do.


    Israel (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by KeysDan on Mon Oct 09, 2023 at 11:35:04 AM EST
    has had many choices, particularly, since.the six-day war in 1967.  With the instant attack by Hamas, its choices are narrowed to a military one before equity, economic and peace negotiations can be re-started in any meaningful way.

    This is now a war with all the death and horrors wars entail---the reason wars are abhorrent and to be avoided and not to be cavalierly bruited about as we hear from moronic hawks and hapless talking heads.

    It is tragic, that Arafat rejected the reasonable and fair deal offered by Israel PM Ehud Barak in 2000.  Both Palestinians and Israelis would be in a much different place. It is still a blueprint for going forward when the circumstances permit its excavation.

    It is fortunate that the nation has wise, capable and empathetic hands on the tiller in the Biden Administration.  President Biden has acted in measured  and prudent ways to both assist Israel and to contain the conflict.


    I don't judge Bidens response (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 09, 2023 at 12:36:19 PM EST
    It was a horrific act.  Israel doesn't need much from him but support.

    As far as the choices, boy.  Glad they are not my choices.


    It definitely (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 09, 2023 at 05:15:49 PM EST
    is comforting to have someone like Biden who is an old hand for sure. He's seen so much it makes a difference. I am glad Israel seems to be working some sort of strategy and not fly off the handle response like George W. Bush did post 9/11.

    Can you imagine if your family member is one of the hostages? Hamas executes them because your own country bombs their country? There seems to be some missions to rescue the hostages but I dont see how they get all of them. The devastation to families so bad.


    The Egyptian (5.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 09, 2023 at 10:48:06 AM EST
    PM has said that he warned Bibi 10 days ago of the planned attack. Bibi has denied it of course. Another reason Bibi should go.

    Genocidal (none / 0) (#15)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 09, 2023 at 06:21:03 PM EST
    No food, no water, no electricity, no fuel allowed into Gaza.

    Israel's Final Solution to the Gaza problem.

    My understanding (none / 0) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 10, 2023 at 06:31:29 AM EST
    is the electricity is being cut off by another entity not Israel but there are some areas that cannot be cut off.

    Good Summary (none / 0) (#22)
    by RickyJim on Wed Oct 11, 2023 at 10:25:50 AM EST
    Mr. Plitnick's (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 11, 2023 at 03:03:33 PM EST
    point, such as it is, seems to be umbrage at Democratic Leader Jeffries use of the word "unprovoked" in his condemnation of the barbaric attack on civilians by Hamas. And, he does not seem assuaged by other Democrats' wordings such as "unjustified."

    His beef against Democrats is that theirstatements of grief and astonishment do not specifically admonish the Israeli government to use restraint in its response to the attacks.

    Mr. Plitnick seems to be taking a leap in equating the use of the word "unprovoked" in condemnation of this terroristic act against civilians in pursuit of political aims with providing license for a disproportionate or unlawful response by Israel.

    Indeed, as President Biden stated in his remarks to the American people, "We discussed (in his call to Netanyahu) how democracies like Israel and U.S. are stronger when we act according to the rule of law."  "Terrorism purposefully targets civilians, kills them.  We uphold the rules of war."


    Does (none / 0) (#23)
    by FlJoe on Wed Oct 11, 2023 at 12:22:53 PM EST
    he even have a point, except to bash Democrats for saying the same things that 99% of American politicians of all stripes have been saying for 70 years.

    The images of the dead and injured children (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 12:56:07 PM EST
    are truly horrible.  
    Seeing them made me think, again, about dealing with the bullet riddled bodies of children right here at home.

    Some brave parent needs to be inspired by Mamie Till-Mobley and make people look at the dead children.  

    I think it would change things.

    I have (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 03:57:05 PM EST
    thought the same thing. People are horrified and rightly so by the images out of Israel but we have a mini Hamas attack at schools regularly and yet there is no outrage on the right about that.

    They are invisible (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 04:13:06 PM EST
    we never ever see the dead children.  IMO it needs to not be.

    I have (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 16, 2023 at 03:57:05 PM EST
    thought the same thing. People are horrified and rightly so by the images out of Israel but we have a mini Hamas attack at schools regularly and yet there is no outrage on the right about that.

    Anybody Know? (none / 0) (#43)
    by RickyJim on Tue Oct 17, 2023 at 11:01:09 AM EST
    1. Has Hamas made any demands on Israel in order that the hostages be released?

    2. How does Israel plan to destroy Hamas?  Do they intend to go door to door in Gaza looking for bombs, AK47s and known members of that organization?


    How many members (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jondee on Tue Oct 17, 2023 at 03:55:06 PM EST
    do they know about; and is this going to turn into punishing suspected Hamas member's families and destroying family homes etc? One suspects it will.

    Hamas knew from the beginning that Israel has 100X the firepower they do, so I suspect the part of the end game here was to goad Israel into overreacting and committing atrocities in order to turn 'the world' against Israel.


    I certainly don't know, but (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Peter G on Tue Oct 17, 2023 at 04:30:01 PM EST
    I thought I had read that Hamas operates from a network of tunnels; their infrastructure is underneath the city and countryside of Gaza. If so, the Israeli theory of how to find and "destroy" them may be to get under now-abandoned houses and shops.

    It was most unhelpful (none / 0) (#46)
    by KeysDan on Wed Oct 18, 2023 at 01:02:54 PM EST
    for the Arab leaders not to meet with President Biden who, in good faith, traveled half-way around the world, at no small risk, to provide humanitarian aid and to facilitate peace.

    Responsibility for the hospital explosion is shrouded in the fog of war with finger pointing without definitive evidence.  For leadership interested in addressing problems, it would seem that this tragedy would auger for meetings not for their cancellation.

    It is prudent to argue against a disproportionate response by Israel to the savage and wanton attack by Hamas on Israeli territory and the hostage-taking of 200 individuals ranging in age from elderly to toddlers--of diverse nationalities.  

    But what should be a proportionate response at this point?  In part, it should be based on Hamas returning the hostages with dispatch.  Israel should then cease aerial bombing and proceed to topple Hamas through intelligence, technologies and diplomacy. Invasion of Gaza by Israeli troops, other than special operational forces, may become unnecessary to achieve primary goals of hostage recovery and Hamas overthrow.

    The diplomacy should include the development, in concert with neighboring Arab leaders, of a new governing body for Gaza to replace Hamas.  The same Arab leaders who missed, once again, an opportunity to work toward peaceful resolutions for Palestinians and Israelis.  And to do so, with the benefit of the President of the United States at the table.

    Arab leaders just want this to all go away (none / 0) (#49)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Oct 19, 2023 at 04:37:55 PM EST
    They don't want to take in refugee Palestinians. Saudi Arabia would prefer to keep funding Islamists rather than have them residing as their next door neighbors.

    The hostages are gone. Israel will not negotiate anything and the second the first tank rolls across the border into Gaza, they are dead. From what I am hearing on TV, most Israelis are ready to accept this. They want to Hamas dead more than they want 200 hostages alive.


    The NY Times (none / 0) (#52)
    by KeysDan on Mon Oct 23, 2023 at 04:28:13 PM EST
    admitted its coverage of the Gaza Hospital blast, at the time of President Biden's trip to Israel, relied too heavily on Hamas claims.

    In an "Editorial Note, published Monday, October 23, it was acknowledged that its initial reporting of the explosion and the numbers dead and injured had not been verified.

    Israel denied being at fault and pointed to an errant rocket launched by a Palestinian faction, Islamic Jihad. The NYTimes was not alone in rushing to judgment or relying on Hamas or a single source.  US intelligence, subsequently, after analysis, agreed with, and supported, the Israel contention.

    In is well that the reporting mistake is now acknowledged, but its, and others, thoughtless coverage did not help ameliorate the situation.

    The cancellation of meetings planned by President Biden with Arab leaders as a result of the outrage against Israel was a missed and timely opportunity to address the tragic circumstances and engage in discussions that might free hostages, facilitate humanitarian aid and lower the temperature of the responses.

    It has been said that the first casualty of war is the truth.  The fog of war can be that--a lack of clarity or it can be a warring strategy.

     The Arab leaders should be faulted, in my view, for reacting to unverified facts at the expense of, at least, trying to ease the pain and suffering of the peoples of Israel and Gaza and to work toward circumscribing the conflict.  

    What contention of Israel's (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jondee on Mon Oct 23, 2023 at 06:19:08 PM EST
    does the U.S ever Not support, is my question.

    Are we going to draw the line at settlers ethnically cleansing the West Bank? So far, there's been nary a peep about it.


    The fog of war is opaque. (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Oct 31, 2023 at 04:23:20 PM EST
    KeysDan: "It has been said that the first casualty of war is the truth.  The fog of war can be that--a lack of clarity or it can be a warring strategy."

    Wartime and its attendant clampdown / blackout of information bring uncertainty, particularly to those who reside at or near the front lines, where imaginations and fear can run wild. The dissemination of misinformation certainly doesn't help matters any.

    I'm reminded of a not-so-amusing home front story from the Second World War, popularly known today as "The Battle of Los Angeles" and "The Great Los Angeles Air Raid."

    The incident in question took place on the night of February 24-25, 1942, less than three months after the Japanese Navy's surprise attack on Hawaii, and only one day after the Japanese submarine I-117 surfaced off Santa Barbara, CA to shell the Ellwood oil field at Goleta with its deck guns. Further, 14 U.S. merchant ships had been attacked by Japanese submarines off the California coast between Dec. 7, 1941 and Feb. 24, 1942, with five of them sunk.

    So, quite understandably, residents along the Southern California coast were on considerable edge, which approached paranoia since nobody really knew at the time where the main Japanese battle fleet might be. (That fleet was actually heading into the Indian Ocean to raid the British naval base at Colombo, Ceylon, known today as Sri Lanka.) Rumors of an imminent Japanese military invasion of California were rampant throughout local communities.

    On the afternoon of February 24, the Office of Naval Intelligence issued a public warning that a Japanese attack on California could be expected within the next ten hours. What basis that office had for issuing that warning has never been determined.

    Later that evening, nervous citizens began to call in reports of flares and blinking lights in the vicinity of the region's many defense plants. It was enough to prompt local military officials to call an official alert at 7:18 p.m., which was later lifted three hours later.

    But at about 2:20 a.m. in the early morning hours of February 25, air raid sirens suddenly began wailing throughout Los Angeles County, an immediate regional blackout was ordered and thousands of air raid wardens in the L.A. area (including my grandmother and my then 17-year-old uncle) were summoned to their posts.

    At 3:15 a.m., a jittery crew of soldiers from the Army's Coast Artillery, who were manning a couple anti-aircraft batteries at Fort MacArthur near Palos Verdes, heard what they thought were enemy aircraft approaching. It was later determined that what they heard were two U.S. Coast Guard cutters towing barrage balloons into position just off L.A. / Long Beach Harbor in the dark.

    Those soldiers opened fire toward the general direction of the noise. Units manning other nearby coastal batteries took their cue from the anti-aircraft fire and likewise began to fire indiscriminately into the night sky. Very quickly, other coastal batteries in their immediate vicinity began to do the same. A chain reaction occurred as coastal batteries up and down the SoCal coast from Dana Point to Pacific Palisades, each one prompted by neighboring batteries, opened fire into the black of night against an approaching imaginary enemy.

    The anti-aircraft fire continued nonstop over L.A. for over an hour, with several thousand shells being fired in all. Several buildings were damaged in the Torrance area when shellfire hit them because battery artillery crews failed to set the fuses properly before firing.

    Citizens panicked, and three were killed in auto accidents resulting from the confusion, while another two died of stress-induced heart attacks. For their part, my mother and her two sisters got out of bed and climbed up onto the roof of their house in Pasadena, CA to watch the barrage, which lit up the night sky.

    Local newspapers rushed out special editions the next morning that served only to misinform everyone as to what had actually happened. Frank Knox, Secretary of the Navy, held a press conference in Washington later that same morning to assure everyone that it had all been a false alarm, which of course satisfied practically nobody in SoCal.

    Accusations of a cover-up started flying in local newspapers after Army Chief of Staff Gen. George C. Marshall issued a public statement later than afternoon, which intimated that that the incident might have been caused by enemy agents using commercial airplanes to induce mass panic among the region's two million residents.

    U.S. officials only learned after the war from Japanese military records that the Japanese never had any intention to invade California, and the Imperial Navy had never sent aircraft over the state, even on reconnaissance missions.

    But for decades afterward, there were many SoCal residents who still insisted that the Japanese had launched an air raid on L.A. in Feb. 1942. Such is the power of rumor and misinformation to embed itself into the public consciousness, particularly in a vacuum of official uncertainly, contradictions and silence.



    Netanyahu (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Wed Nov 08, 2023 at 06:35:16 PM EST
    in his prouncements, is equating the Palestinians with the Amalekites, the savage people in "our Holy Bible" that the great Warlord in the Sky ordered the Ancient Israelites to exterminate- every man, woman, and child.

    I posit this as an example of GENOCIDAL rhetoric, from the Israeli PM, for those lawyer/semanticists out there on the hunt for language to forensically parse.