Saturday Night Open Thread

Happy 80th Birthday to Paul McCartney. He gave a concert last week at New Jersey's Metro Life stadium and who showed up to lead the audience in singing Happy Birthday? Jon Bon Jovi.

He also brought out Bruce Springsteen and they sang Glory Days.

Tonight (U.K. Time) Paul is headlining at Glastonbury. He's the oldest performer ever to headline the show. He's already brought out Dave Grohl (they sang "And I Saw Her Standing There") and Bruce Springsteen. And he performed a tribute to the Rolling Stones. Here is the full schedule and information on how to watch live.

I'll be back later this weekend with my thoughts on yesterday's Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v Wade, and a post on Ghislaine Maxwell's imminent sentencing and the absurd amount of time the Government has asked the Court to impose on her, and the battle over whether women not involved in the case or the charges she was convicted of have standing to speak at her sentencing.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Roe v. Wade Decision Fallout | Fourth of July Open Thread >
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    J6 (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Jun 25, 2022 at 10:20:06 PM EST
    I'm not missing a minute of the hearings.

    It's ironic that the people who accused thousands of Democrats of electoral cheating left a paper trail that could be seen from the moon. The electronic age has proven to be a gold mine.

    These people forwarded and copied emails to each other so many times that there is probably none that J6 hasn't seen.

    The absence of grandstanding Republicans who make speeches instead of asking questions is refreshing. The questions are focused, and the questioner knows the answer before asking it.

    The committee has known since its inception that the work was important and historic. The timing and the staging are brilliant. Bite size pieces, each proving beyond a doubt a specific aspect of the conspiracy, leading up to a prime time "Who Shot J.R." moment a few months before the election. All dots will be connected, and a minute by minute timeline will be produced.

    They definitely have the goods on Gaetz, Greene, Biggs, Johnson, Gohmert, and Perry. They are going to let them twist in the wind, and serve them up in the finale.

    Meanwhile, not a single communication among Democrats has surfaced.

    The lawyers might be the first to go (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 08:32:55 AM EST

    Typically, lawyers are not a weak link. In my experience, lawyers have been the most difficult defendants to convict. They're usually careful about what they say and what they write down. But Trump's coterie of dishonest legal advisers -- John Eastman, Rudy Giuliani, Sydney Powell, Jenna Ellis and Clark -- weren't careful.



    After today's bombshell testimony from ... (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 06:59:16 PM EST
    ... Mark Meadows' former aide Cassidy Hutchinson, the guy I really want to hear from right now is former Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone.

    F*ck this executive privilege bullsh*t Cipollone's been claiming, because there's no such privilege legally attached to his efforts to dissuade the boss from engaging in what turned out to be an attempted coup d'état. That's treason. The House J6 Select Committee needs to subpoena his a$$ ASAP.

    As for Meadows, I always thought he was a clown when he was in Congress. After today, I've downgraded my opinion of him to a f*ckin' buffoon who'd otherwise really have no business even serving on a municipal parks commission, never mind in Congress and the White House.

    What in the hell was Meadows thinking? He's nearly 40 years older than Ms. Hurchinson, and yet she's the one who was advising him against doing what he did and to get his sh*t together. There's truly no fool like an old fool. I hope he has a good criminal defense counsel, because he's likely going to need one.

    Stephen Colbert was right. These committee hearings have confirmed that Trump and his goons are not only exactly what we had always suspected they were, they're proving to be even worse than we could have ever possibly imagined.



    Emails (none / 0) (#21)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 04:03:06 PM EST
    People really have no restraint in what they put in emails--as if they think "deleting" them makes them go away.  Ha!
     And it makes reconstructing recent history more possible.

    And, yes, text messages can be pulled up too...


    Rudy (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 08:49:53 AM EST
    shot on Fifth Avenue!
    Giuliani said he felt like he was "shot" after a grocery store employee slapped his back.

    Giuliani said he could have "hit the ground" and cracked his skull if he hadn't been more fit.

    Not really
    Footage of the attack released by The New York Post did not appear to show Giuliani lurching forward or falling after being slapped on the back. The video also appeared to show Giuliani standing upright and pointing his finger at the man who confronted him.
    The video shows this "slap" to equate to a rather tepid swat at a mosquito.

    Best case scenario (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 12:02:50 PM EST
    they drop the charges.

    Can't see any jury convicting this man after seeing the video. Hopefully, they don't talk him into a plea deal.


    A large percentage of minor crime (5.00 / 3) (#73)
    by Peter G on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 12:45:19 PM EST
    arrests in NYC result in what they call "Adjourned in Contemplation of Dismissal."  The judge sets a date several months out, and if the person hasn't gotten in trouble in the meanwhile, the charges are dropped.  Kind of like a pre-plea, unsupervised probation.

    Thanks for the info (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 02:39:31 PM EST
    As always, we get a lot of good info from you.

    It was a literal pat on the back (none / 0) (#44)
    by MKS on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 11:17:36 AM EST
    Assault...no way (none / 0) (#120)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 06:18:39 PM EST
    Mayor Eric Adams said on Tuesday that Giuliani should be investigated for filing a false police report over the alleged assault, and that prompted the former mayor to tell Adams to "go f-k himself,"
    "I looked at the video, and someone needs to remind former Mayor Giuliani that falsely reporting a crime is a crime," Adams said.

    "And from what he stated about being punched in the head, felt like a bullet -- from what he stated, there was a lot of creativity, and I think the district attorney, he has the wrong person that he's investigating," Adams continued.



    Let's (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 09:05:03 AM EST
    hope she has receipts
    A Colorado election clerk who was indicted on 10 criminal counts has said that Rep. Lauren Boebert (R-CO) "encouraged" her to commit the alleged crimes.

    A rare case in which Covid may (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by desertswine on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 12:04:37 AM EST
    have actually saved a couple of lives...

    An Amtrak train carrying more than 200 passengers crashed into a dump truck in rural Missouri on Monday, killing three people and injuring dozens, the authorities said. It was the second fatal accident involving the railroad service in two days.

    Two of the people killed were on the train, and the other was in the truck, the authorities said. The exact number of passengers injured and the extent of their injuries were not immediately clear.

    Two of our friends were booked to be on that train, travelling to visit the mother of one of them.  But the husband home-tested positive for
    Covid so they cancelled out.  Luckily.

    50 migrants found dead (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 09:10:15 AM EST
    in a semi-trailer around San Antonio, TX. The wheelchair moron blames it on Biden's "Open Borders." No, you moron, if there were open borders those people would simply have walked through the gate at the border. They would have not had to hide in a semi-trailer.

    The GQP are callous and stupid. They believe in nothing but their own aggrandizement.

    I am a little surprised (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 04:40:37 PM EST
    in a positive way, at the Facebook reactions I'm seeing to the abortion decision.  People I did not expect are posting stuff questioning the decision asking things like why are women the only ones punished for this stuff.

    Almost total lack of anything positive about it.

    Understand these are mostly people I'm "friends" with.  But there are quite a few to the right of me policy wise.

    I am (none / 0) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 06:13:16 AM EST
    seeing a lot more pro-choice people speak out. Hopefully this finally breaks the voting conservative fever some of these women have.

    Hearsay is admitted (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by MKS on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 11:41:00 AM EST
    into evidence all the time.

    The Trump apologists are saying Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony is hearsay and should therefore be ignored.  But...

    First, not all of her testimony was hearsay.  In particular what she heard Trump say about letting the armed people to his rally and then going to the Capitol.  Not hearsay.  She directly heard Trump make the comment.

    And, the account she was told in the West Wing about Trump grabbing the steering wheel is hearsay.  But hearsay can be admitted for all kinds of reasons.

    The way to get the "steering wheel" testimony into Evidence is to show it as a prior inconsistent statement if the Secret Service denies the account.  Their prior inconsistent statement comes into evidence, hearsay or not.

    There are all kinds of exceptions to the hearsay rule. See Federal Rules of Evidence 802-807.  Look it up.  It is online.

    I can't tell you how much litigation has occurred over the admission of hearsay:  when it comes in, and when it stays out.

    In my example above of a prior inconsistent statement, Rule 806 would apply.

    And, hearsay comes into Evidence in almost every trial.  You need to object, or it comes in.

    The best example of this, imo, was during the George Zimmerman trial.  The Defense Counsel asked the police officer in effect his opinion of whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense.  The Prosecution did not object, and the testimony came in. It was irrelevant, because the non-factual of a non-expert witness are not admissible. Not a hearsay issue, but still the idea is that all kinds of things come into Evidence all the time.  

    Well, the fascists (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 03:07:45 PM EST
    claims that Ms. Hutchinson's testimony was hearsay at least gets the part that this was testimony correct.  Testimony, not at a criminal trial, but a Congressional hearing.  And, almost comically, they pooh poohed  the steering wheel/clavicle-assault  part of the testimony.on the word of "a source close to the Secret Service" .
    Not hearsay, journalism.

    This anonymous source confirmed that Rich Engel and the driver are prepared to testify that this part did not happen as testified.  However, the critical part that the president was irate, and demanded to be taken to the Capitol so he could lead the charge of the armed insurrections,  was not contested .

    Ms. Hutchinson's testimony drew a straight line from Trump knowingly lying about the election results, to gathering  a mob, to ensuring the mob was armed, to directing the mob to the Capitol with the intent to overthrow the government.

    Rather than hearsay, the fascists should take advantage of the Supreme Court's new test " history and tradition".  Her testimony clearly fails that test. There is no history or firmly rooted tradition of a young woman giving testimony about a coup whose ringleader is the president of the United States. Not the case in 1787 or since.  


    The only part of Tr*mp's response (none / 0) (#105)
    by Peter G on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 03:36:38 PM EST
    that troubled me at all -- and only on the remote chance that it is true (but since it came directly from TFG, the chances of that are pretty slim) -- is that after 1/20/21 Hutchinson applied for a job working for him at Mara Lago (but was not hired). Has anyone seen any follow-up on that?

    CNN reported that (none / 0) (#106)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 04:03:01 PM EST
    yesterday, but did not verify. And, no response as far as I can determine from Ms. Hutchinson. An anonymous quote:

    CNN: "one former aide, said Hutchinson had a falling out with Meadows in 2021. She was supposed to go to Mar-a-Lago as a permanent staff but that never ended up happening."


    If so, and even if she was interested in (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Peter G on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 04:18:56 PM EST
    becoming part of Meadows' staff at Mar a Lago -- which is, after all, still a key part of being on Tr*mp's staff--, that raises questions in my mind given what she says she witnessed in December and January in the behavior of both Tr*mp AND Meadows. At the least, it would call for a more coherent explanation of when and how it was that she came to realize that what she had witnessed was profoundly troubling, if she ever did realize that. Maybe she's just truthfully recounting what she witnessed (and what she heard) and has no opinion at all -- being quite young and also clearly a committed right-winger -- about how awful it is.

    One gets the feeling Cheney (none / 0) (#111)
    by MKS on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 04:57:22 PM EST
    is setting them up, taunting them.

    I was surprised when it was revealed that it was Cheney herself, and not staff counsel, who took the depositions of Flynn and Cassidy Hutchinson.  She is enmeshed in the details.  She baited the Penn. Congressman about seeking a pardon, and then produced the evidence later.

    Cheney, I was surprised to learn, went to law school at the University of Chicago and worked at high-brow White & Case.

    Cheney may be bating the Secret Service guys to sit for their depositions.  And she has a bead drawn on Pat Cippolone.


    Baiting (none / 0) (#115)
    by FlJoe on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 05:39:33 PM EST
    all the witnesses really, past present and future.

    Like her or hate her (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 05:45:30 PM EST
    she is the reason this is working.  She is really the face if the committee.  I believe the chairman sees the benefit of this.

    Without her this would be another exercise in futility no matter how well produced it is.


    Subpoena (none / 0) (#117)
    by FlJoe on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 05:54:18 PM EST
    just issued for Cipollone.

    Ginni (none / 0) (#130)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 08:56:29 PM EST
    next.   So anxious to get down to the Committee to set the record straight.  And that would be understandable so as not to cloud in anyway the good name of her husband just because of her efforts to overthrow the government.  

    That willingness has become a switcheroo.. next thing we know is that Ginni will be admitted to the hospital with an undisclosed infirmity until the heat is off.


    I (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 05:56:26 AM EST
    am beginning to think Ornato was in on the plot
    Around this time, [Pence's national security advisor Keith] Kellogg ran into Tony Ornato in the West Wing. Ornato, who oversaw Secret Service movements, told him that Pence's detail was planning to move the vice president to Joint Base Andrews. "You can't do that, Tony," Kellogg said. "Leave him where he's at. He's got a job to do. I know you guys too well. You'll fly him to Alaska if you have a chance. Don't do it."
    Tuesday's episode introduced him `to the narrative with the SUV episode which was bound to raise eyebrows with the media and the public.

    link (none / 0) (#134)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 06:09:13 AM EST
    here CNN was just talking about him and not in a good way. Cheney has him in a box.

    Not for nothing, but (none / 0) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 06:49:38 PM EST
    there are lots of photos of Trump riding around in the limo out there.

    His seat is like 6, maybe 8, feet away from the steering wheel. He'd also have to dive over the rear-facing seat behind the driver.

    I mean, he may have grabbed the steering wheel, but seems to me that would be way above his athletic potential...


    They were not in "The Beast" (5.00 / 3) (#122)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 07:08:05 PM EST
    Which is the preferred presidential transport.  Which does have a layout that would make it difficult.

    They discussed this last night on Rachel.  They were in the presidential SUV.  The same one he rode around in like the Pope when he had COVID.  Which does have a layout that would make such an attack possible.

    According to a person who wrote a book about the Secret Service.


    Not (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 07:15:18 PM EST
    Ah, yes. thank you. (none / 0) (#131)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 11:46:11 PM EST
    Yes, the SUV (none / 0) (#129)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 08:28:53 PM EST
    motorcade video punctuated Ms. Hutchinson's testimony of the steering wheel/clavicle grabbing episode as told to her by Tony Ornato in the presence of Rich Engel.(whom she testified did not refute the story).

    It was a little confusing because the testimony included "the. old Cadillac" or the "Beast". But was clarified by the video.  There were no old Cadillac images.


    Ha ha ha (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 12:05:56 PM EST
    We will miss you Rudy

    "The January 6 Witch Hunt Cabal has now exceeded even its prior fraudulent," he said. "The last witness was a reckless liar. Contrary to her false testimony she was never present when I asked for a pardon."

    Rudy is already shouting (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 01:36:19 PM EST
    from the bottom of the very big hole he has dug for himself. Yet, he keeps on digging.

    Even a (formerly accomplished) lawyer (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Peter G on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 01:38:27 PM EST
    needs a lawyer to speak for him in this kind of situation. What a sad doofus Rudy has become.

    For Me the Biggest Craziness (none / 0) (#103)
    by RickyJim on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 02:31:32 PM EST
    of Rudy and the others was that they thought the coup plot might work.  No military backing; no sign that the Supreme Court would back them; no credible evidence of election fraud; no sign that any state legislature in the states they contest would send Trump electors. Those facts might help a diminished capacity defense.

    Would probably help more (none / 0) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 04:42:42 PM EST
    if it had not come so close to working.

    No, it Didn't Cone Close (none / 0) (#112)
    by RickyJim on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 05:12:24 PM EST
    If you mean by working that Pence would have done what Trump wanted, the Supreme Court, rioting in the streets or the States themselves sending the original electors again to Congress would have undone what Pence did. Yes, a few days of elation for Trump is all that could have happened.  There was not enough support in the State Legislatures to send new slates of electors just because Trump asked them.

    By "working" (none / 0) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 05:37:19 PM EST
    I meant it came very close to throwing the country into total chaos.  

    Which it did.

    No. It probably would not have "worked" in the long run but we would have been f'ed for about a decade if Pence had tried.


    Supreme Court Associate Justice, (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by KeysDan on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 04:31:39 PM EST
    Stephen Breyer, will retire tomorrow, effective at 12 noon.  All good wishes to the 83-year old jurist for an enjoyable next chapter in his life. And, a thank you for your good service to the country.

    Ketanji Brown Jackson, who was nominated to replace Justice Breyer by President Biden,  was confirmed by the senate last April.  It is expected that she will be sworn-in shortly.

    Tomorrow will bring the publication of the last of the Court's rulings for the term. Saving the EPA  case for last, as they head off for the summer, does not sound too good.  The case gives an opportunity for this Court to give the back of their hand to regulations/regulatory agencies and Congressional delegation of authority.  The worry is just how bad it will be.

    Today, in a 5/4 decision, Justice Kavanaugh, writing for the majority (Roberts, Thomas, Alito, Barrett), ruled that Indian Country is a part of a state's territory and states have jurisdiction over crimes committed in Indian Country.  Gorsuch did not like the majority opinion and joined, in dissent, Justices Kagan, Sotomayor and Breyer.  

    Oklahoma can prosecute crimes in a large swath of the state as Indian land. The Oklahoma governor was delighted with the ruling (if in doubt, that is a clue that it is a bad decision).

    To clarify, the Supreme Court ruled (none / 0) (#110)
    by Peter G on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 04:57:09 PM EST
    a few years ago that state prosecutors cannot bring criminal charges that name Native Americans as defendants if the crime was committed against another Native American as the victim, and if it occurred in "Indian Country" (a legal concept which happens to encompass most of Oklahoma, inter alia). Such charges can be pursued only by the federal government or Tribal courts. Justice Gorsuch, who is the strongest defender of Native sovereignty and rights at the Court, wrote that opinion. Today's opinion held (5-4) that if the defendant is not a Native American, then such cases can be brought either by the State or by the feds (and not by a Tribe), even though the victim is Native and the offense occurred in "Indian Country." In other words, which government has jurisdiction turns on the identity of the accused defendant more than on the identity of the victim.  I don't know enough about Indian law issues to know what the implications are of this ruling, or on what basis you would call it "good" or "bad."

    Eastern Oklahoma was still legally known ... (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 05:13:37 AM EST
    ... as "Indian Territory" until 1907, when it was joined with the Territory of Oklahoma (which had itself only been in existence for 18 years) to create the State of Oklahoma, which was admitted to the Union that same year.

    The United States has never formally extinguished the Muscogee (Creek) Nation's title to the land that was formerly pre-1907 Indian Territory, because there is a binding Treaty of 1866 between the Muscogee Nation (our country's 4th largest tribe by enrollment) and the United States, which was ratified by the U.S. Senate that same year and guaranteed Muscogee lands in perpetuity. And as you know, the provisions of any Senate-ratified treaty have the force and effect of federal law. To amend or repeal all or any portion of it requires both an act of Congress and an act of the Muscogeee National Council.

    That was the legal underpinning for the earlier ruling that the State of Oklahoma had no legal jurisdiction to arrest and detain a Muscogee tribal member for a murder of another tribal member that occurred on Muscogee land. He had been tried, convicted and incarcerated for that murder by the state. The SCOTUS ruling voided his conviction, but state authorities then released the defendant to the custody of tribal authorities because they had an outstanding warrant for his arrest for the same crime. He was then tried and convicted in tribal court.

    Conversely, by the terms of that same treaty, and as you noted, Muscogee law enforcement have no legal jurisdiction over a non-Indian who commits an offense on tribal lands, even if the victim / complainant is a tribal member. That person can only be legally arrested by state or federal authorities, although there was (is?) a narrow exception when the state authorities formally request tribal law enforcement to act as their agents in effecting such an arrest on tribal land. Then the detainee must be promptly turned over by tribal police to state authorities.

    I had to study the Muscogee structure of governance when I was working for the Hawaii legislature, and officials were looking at various models for a possible reconstituted and sovereign Native Hawaiian nation. The issue of legal jurisdiction has always been complicated and thorny in federal-tribal relations, especially since it's not one size fits all. Each major tribe has its own treaty with the U.S., so provisions can vary. Anyway, it's rather fascinating stuff.



    Far be it from me (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 05:34:25 PM EST
    to side with the OK governor.  Or to feign any legal expertise ... but according to the NTTimes

    The ruling left in place the basic holding of the 2020 decision, McGirt v. Oklahoma, which said that Native Americans who commit crimes on the reservations, which include much of the city of Tulsa, cannot be prosecuted by state or local law enforcement and must instead face justice in tribal or federal courts

    That seems kind of unworkable.  To me.  Maybe I am just unfamiliar with the scope and abilities of tribal courts and law enforcement but it seems odd to me a crime committed in the city of Tulsa can't be prosecuted by Tulsa law enforcement.

    Just saying.



    That why I said that ... (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 07:22:25 PM EST
    ... legal jurisdiction has always been a complicated and thorny issue in federal-state-tribal relations. Having studied the matter, it is my understanding that the federal-Muscogee relationship as defined in the Treaty of 1866 - which predates the creation of State of Oklahoma by 41 years - supercedes the tribe's relationship with the Oklahoma's and Tulsa's agencies and officials.

    Per the provisions of that 1866 treaty, the city of Tulsa is recognized as tribal land. As sovereign citizens of the Muscogee Nation, tribal members are not subject to state law and city ordinance, so long as they are on tribal land.

    If Oklahoma or Tulsa want to change that legal dynamic, both would have to petition Congress and the Muscogee Tribal Council to amend the Treaty of 1866 accordingly.

    A similar situation exists in Arizona and New Mexico with regard to tribal citizens of the Navajo Nation, which is the second largest tribe in the U.S. So long as they are on tribal land, Navajo citizens don't answer to state officials. Arizona and New Mexico state police have no authority in Navajo territory.



    On the subject of Native Americans (none / 0) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 05:55:04 PM EST
    I just saw the South Park Mormon episode.  

    I immediately did a Google because I honestly could not believe it was all true.  It is.  Mostly.

    The "inaccuracies" were like when they said only Smith ever saw the "golden plates".  Here is the Mormon version

    1. Yes, there were over a dozen people who saw the plates. Eight of them signed an affidavit. Another three signed a separate affidavit. History records that a few others likewise saw the plates (Joseph himself being one such example), bringing the total to over a dozen. A signed statement by eleven people does constitutes substantial evidence; if a defense attorney could find eleven witnesses to all testify they saw a crime, for example, he'd have a pretty solid case.


    I recommend it.  It should be easy to find.


    Honestly (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 07:37:38 PM EST
    I think they might have done that, really how much less silly is the "truth", just to get that response.  And other similar ones in defense of the faith.

    They are in their own way supplying the actual punchlines.


    Two things about jurisdiction (none / 0) (#125)
    by Peter G on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 07:36:05 PM EST
    in "Indian Country." Partly, it is about the unique sort of "sovereignty" that tribal governments have under treaties with the U.S. Government, which is not necessarily geographical but is also ethnic/racial. Gorsuch has a broad view of that authority, and commanded a majority in McGirt, much to the dismay of the Oklahoma state govt. Remember, a lot of what we think of today as Oklahoma was stolen from the Indians, after tribes from elsewhere (including Georgia and Pennsylvania) were forced to relocate there in the 1830s (IIRC) and told the land would be theirs. Gorsuch's majority upheld those old treaties. Then the question is whether the Tribal govt has the sort of exclusive jurisdiction there that the French government has in France, to prosecute crimes committed there by whomever against whomever, for example, or only some more limited and unique sort of jurisdiction to protect their essential tribal interests. Under today's decision the state can prosecute white (or black) guys who go on tribal land and commit crimes against Native Americans, such as molesting Indian kids (today's case) or raping Indian women. But it cannot prosecute Native people who commit the same crimes against other Native people within Indian Country. That is the extent of exclusive Tribal authority. And yes, there is a tribal court system, and there are tribal police and prosecutors.

    They were relocated (none / 0) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 07:40:40 PM EST
    from my state as well.  Your explanation makes more sense.

    Highly recommed: (none / 0) (#151)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 10:57:04 PM EST
    Unworthy Republic: The Dispossession of Native Americans and the Road to Indian Territory,
    by Claudio Saunt

    New developments in Missouri (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 06:12:50 PM EST
    John Wood Launches Independent Missouri Senate Bid

    John Wood, a former senior investigator for the House select committee investigating the January 6 attack on the US Capitol, launched a Senate campaign in Missouri as an independent....

    Wood predicted in an interview with the St. Louis Post Dispatch that former Gov. Eric Greitens (R) would win the GOP primary on Aug. 2 and said voters deserved an alternative in the heavily Republican state.

    This is what Danforth and the other establishment Republicans were promoting. If he can get the support he needs to mount a serious campaign, November will be interesting in Missouri.

    Interesting. (none / 0) (#135)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 06:28:52 AM EST
    It seems they are turning their green party strategy onto themselves. Do you think enough Republicnas will vote for the I candidate to get a D win in MO?

    I just read where MO hospitals were denying rape victims treatment with Plan B because of the abortion laws. Got into it with one little anti-abortion troll on twitter who said this needs to be corrected right away. I said this is what you support. He said I don't. I said then you have been fooled. This kind of thing is what it was always about -- stripping women of bodily autonomy.


    Resumed (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 08:14:59 PM EST
    Major health system stops, then resumes Plan B amid Missouri's abortion ban

    Saint Luke's Health System, which operates 17 hospitals, pharmacies and urgent care clinics in the Kansas City area, announced on Wednesday afternoon that it will resume providing emergency contraceptives following comments from the Missouri Attorney General's Office and Missouri Gov. Mike Parson clarifying that the new abortion ban does not affect Plan B or similar products.

    Of course, as my brother, now a resident of (none / 0) (#149)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 10:52:22 PM EST
    MO, reminded me today, Danforth previously endorsed Hawley, but later sd. It was the biggest mistake he ever made.

    Did you manage to (none / 0) (#152)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 11:23:29 PM EST
    get to all your events in St. Louis while the weather was cooler. We did have a couple of extremely nice days around the 26th-27th.

    Yes. Muni opera and Marlins/Cards perfect. (none / 0) (#153)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 11:28:59 PM EST
    Over 90 degrees in Independence but ok. Thank gawd for A/C.

    This is not a small thing (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 07:39:55 AM EST
    No, it is (none / 0) (#138)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 12:34:41 PM EST
    not.  With the alluring coverage of TFG's hijinks and the stunning revelations of his criminal plot to violently overthrow the government, so much of the immensely important accomplishments of President Biden and his administration get short shrift.

    The unity among allies and the refurbishment, and now expansion, of NATO, not only undergird the defensive action in Ukraine against the invasion by Russia, but also, demonstrate a bulwark for democracy among Western nations.   None of which would have occurred without the leadership and re-commitment of the US.  And, just plain old hard and un-glamorous diplomatic and other work.


    If there are not indictments and (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 01:23:43 PM EST
    prosecutions for the entire top tier of this coup conspiracy, this nation is doomed. If they get away with this, it WILL HAPPEN AGAIN. And soon.

    I confess, I am amazed at the depths of this conspiracy. I saw Jan. 6 happen, in real time. At the time I, like many, thought it was a spontaneous event. It is quite apparent, that is not the case. I am sure many of those currently charged were caught up in the moment. Not all of them knew they were being used as pawns in a coup attempt.

    The prior administration makes Nixon's people look like amateurs. Nixon crimes were a late library book in comparison to the extent and depth of the crimes committed by orange crime family.

    Of course, I am not completely surprised by all of it. I knew who DJT was. See my comments from 2016 and 2017. I shouted from the rooftops that this guy was a clear and present danger to the safety and security of this country. All anyone had to do was listen to Howard Stern interviews from 20+ years ago. He showed us then what an utter contemptible $cumbag he was.

    This so-called person should have never been allowed anywhere near the White House. The GQP will forever be responsible this dark stain on our history. Bill Maher (love him or hate him) said for 4 years that he wasn't going to leave. He asked every Democratic candidate that came on his show what they would do if wouldn't leave. They all kind of chuckled and did head bob. None of them saw this coming. And it nearly came to that. He wasn't going to leave. My wife expected him to chain the WH doors.

    Liz Cheney gave a speech at the Reagan Library last night in CA. It was broadcast live on C-span. My cousin (now retied, used to work at the SCOTUS) called to tell me she was going to be on. Cheney was given a warm welcome and rousing applause. I was curious to see (and hear) what kind of reception she would receive in a room full of republicans. It was good speech. I will never agree with most of Cheney's politics, but you must admire her backbone and commitment to her beliefs and this country.

    Seriously, who is in charge at the DOJ? (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 04:25:24 PM EST
    I (none / 0) (#143)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 05:16:21 PM EST
    would say Inspector Clouseau, but he never whined and always managed to get his man.

    Marvin Gardens.... or some such. (none / 0) (#144)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 06:21:19 PM EST
    Happy 4th of July, everyone! (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 08:52:14 PM EST
    Elder Daughter, husband and our three grandsons are arriving at 6:40 p.m. tonight from Honolulu for the three-day weekend. Should be fun.

    Fantastic panel discussion (5.00 / 2) (#177)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 03:39:00 PM EST
    Agreed, an excellent (none / 0) (#186)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 12:36:30 PM EST
    analysis and discussion.  If able to get into (subscription wall) a similar discussion between Ezra Klein and Kate Shaw(spouse of Chris Hayes), NYTimes audio,  it is also very worthwhile.

     The discussion of these legal scholars with Jon Stewart underscored the clear and present danger of the Supreme Court majority. However, their means of addressing this reactionary Court was for those concerned to launch a campaign of long and persistent duration as did the GOP for the past 40 years and to, essentially, vote into office those who will change the frightening direction of the Court.

    Good suggestions, but it does not seem that the nation has 40 years, let alone forty months, to derail this speeding, out-of-control fascist-fueled locomotive.

    As if the Supreme Court did not inflict enough damage last term, it announced that it would hear Moore v Harper. Yet another fascist attempt to grab electoral power and control.

     This case involves the so called "independent State Legislation Theory", that holds only the state legislature has the power to regulate federal elections--eliminating virtually all oversight of these elections by state courts. State legislatures have plenary power over federal elections without any checks and balances, acting unilaterally. Even by-passing election results they do not like.

    This case will be heard in fall and a ruling likely next year.  Four justices were needed to hear this case. While it is possible that all four of these justices may not wind up voting in support, it seems unlikely. And, just one more justice would need get on board.

    Clarence, (and cohorts) I fear, will try to make lawful in 2023,  what Ginni tried unlawfully in 2020.



    Yes, I share your fear (none / 0) (#187)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 02:46:36 PM EST
    that our nation does not decades to to safeguard our democracy.  Our current form of government could very well be eliminated by the end of this year or within a year.

    I can't get into the NYTimes audio. (none / 0) (#189)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 02:53:45 PM EST
    Did Ezra Klein and Kate Shaw have any better solutions to the clear and present danger of SCOTUS?

    No, (5.00 / 1) (#190)
    by KeysDan on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 03:45:00 PM EST
    but the discussion took on a different perspective, owing to Ezra Klein's disdain, if not contempt, for the SC majority.  Klein stated that his low regard derived from his time covering the Court.

    Their dialog centered on Alito's amateur history in Dobbs, suggesting that "history and deeply rooted traditions" tests require knowledge and understandings of often contested recordings of history---beyond the skill sets of the justices and their work horses, twenty-something clerks.  The Court decisions become the last word on law and history, in effect.

    Of the three Jon Stewart panelists, Kate Shaw seemed the most guarded and optimistic.  In the Ezra Klein discussion she was more animated while connecting the dots between seemingly different egregious Court decisions.  Probably the panel v one-on-one format.


    The firecrackers are being shot (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 05:20:58 PM EST
    off in my neighborhood.

    I am definitely getting old. They never use to bother me but now I really dislike them and wish they would stop.

    I guess I should be grateful that they are just firecrackers. BUT STOP ALREADY. ..save some for the 4th.

    This year has not been so bad (none / 0) (#181)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 07:06:02 PM EST
    so far.  I think it's just t hit to be outside. Feels like 110.

    It will probably get worse after dark.

    Dogs not really happy aboutit


    Oh man (none / 0) (#182)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 07:06:46 PM EST
    To hot to be outside

    Not bad tonight (none / 0) (#184)
    by Peter G on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 09:27:47 PM EST
    I'm sure it will be worse tomorrow, and worst of all on Monday. Dog hates the sound, but has not reacted tonight yet at all.

    The town fireworks are always (none / 0) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 12:14:01 PM EST
    On the dam of the biggest lake and over the lake.

    This happens to be directly in front of my house.    It's about a quarter mile (as the crow flies) away and most of the fireworks makes it well above the trees.  

    So I always have a good seat for the.  I usually have a mini watch party this year it's just me and a neighbor.

    It's better from the roof but that might not be advisable.  Probably the deck.


    My home is situated close (none / 0) (#188)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 02:50:10 PM EST
    enough to the city park that I can see the fireworks that make it above the trees.

    It really is (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 08:39:12 AM EST
    the dog that caught the car with the abortion decision.  

    I think the Senate is saved.  To early to tell about the House.

    FYL (none / 0) (#4)
    by Peter G on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 09:03:30 AM EST

    The news just gets worse (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 10:43:35 AM EST

    Leaders Denounce Supreme Court Ruling
    June 26, 2022 at 5:05 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 227 Comments

    "Several female world leaders denounced the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v. Wade as a setback in the global push for gender equality," the New York Times reports.

    "The United States is one of the few countries to restrict access to abortion in the past two decades, while dozens of other countries have expanded access


    Now Antiabortion Lawmakers Want More
    June 26, 2022 at 1:23 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 78 Comments

    "On the heels of their greatest victory, antiabortion activists are eager to capitalize on their momentum by enshrining constitutional abortion bans, pushing Congress to pass a national prohibition, blocking abortion pills, and limiting people's ability to get abortions across state lines," the Washington Post reports.


    Candidate Says Roe Verdict `Victory for White Life'
    June 26, 2022 at 1:17 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 73 Comments

    Rep. Mary Miller (R-IL) told a crowd at a rally held alongside former president Donald Trump that the supreme court's decision to overturn Roe v Wade was a "victory for white life," The Guardian reports.

    Miller is running for reelection in the state's newly redrawn 15th Congressional District against Rep. Rodney Davis (R-IL) with Donald Trump's endorsement.

    Trump `Keeps Shi-ting All Over' End of Roe v. Wade
    June 26, 2022 at 1:26 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 157 Comments

    Donald Trump "is anxious about what the end of Roe, and the flood of extreme Republican state-level anti-abortion laws it will unleash, will mean for the GOP's electoral prospects -- and for his own," Rolling Stone reports.

    Said one source who spoke to Trump: "He keeps shit-ing all over his greatest accomplishment. When you speak to him, it's the response of someone fearing the backlash and fearing the politics of what happens when conservatives actually get what they want."

    The source added: "I do not think he's enjoying the moment as much as many of his supporters are, to be honest with you."

    They are going to make this election all about this issue.  They won't be able to control themselves.


    I am better (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 04:17:13 PM EST
    understanding how cental Roe was to the equality of women.  Hmm, that sounds a little dimwitted to have written that.  

    But what I mean is that most women can sidestep the U.S. Taliban and in reality control their bodies.  Travel. Get medicine in the mail. Find loopholes.  The research I saw showed that abortions have not declined in those (apparently few) places where abortion was criminalized.

    But the issue is for all women, even those passed child bearing age.  Do they have autonomy or not?  Or are they subject to the whims or religious superstitions of legislatures...

    It is somewhat like marriage equality in a sense.  I never had a direct interest in the marriage equality fight, and I had always intellectually thought marriage equality was right.  But I was surprised how emotionally vested I became in that struggle.... The saying that gay rights supports the rights of all.....really rung true for me.

    Just as one thinks we have really grown as a society and achieved at least a legal framework of equal rights for all, a gut buster like this comes along.

    A new fight for equality.  


    This is interesting (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 04:37:02 PM EST

    By more than a 20-point margin, Americans call it a step backward rather than forward for America.

    Most people don't like the idea of going backwards.  Socially or otherwise.


    Ahh, IMO there is an exception (none / 0) (#28)
    by jmacWA on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 04:47:35 AM EST
    Most people don't like the idea of going backwards.

    UNLESS they can blame it on the Democrats, especially if they can blame it on Liberal or Progressive Democrats.


    Sure (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 07:16:52 AM EST
    Same as it ever was.  The point is they are a minority.  In some if these cases a tiny minority.  But they win because they vote.  

    I hope a long term effect if this, and probably more to come, horrible decision will be to show stupid lazy liberal (young) progressive democrats they have to vote.  And vote and vote again.

    There are enough of us to beat them every time.  But it will only happen when people are threatened enough to vote.

    I think this could do that.


    There is that old saw (none / 0) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 07:19:32 AM EST
    about how people don't get registered to vote for something.  They get registered to vote against something.

    I think we may see that proven in the fall.


    But (none / 0) (#33)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 08:11:01 AM EST
    do elections matter anymore? Even if the Republicans are trounced(doubtful) for the next cycle or two they will still have a failsafe backstop in the supremes.

    Did I mention that the republicans cheat anyway they can in elections and they have the courts to back them up.

    I do think this gives us a lot better shot at holding or gaining in the Senate, the House still looks iffy and most of the state legislatures are probably out of reach.


    At this point (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 09:08:25 AM EST
    and even into election night in 2022 I think they do.  That might not be true in 2024 depending on the outcome.

    My (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 09:24:11 AM EST
    fear is that all the moles that are being placed in the election infrastructure in all the red and purple state will purposely muck up things up just enough to "force" the gerrymandered republican state legislatures to decide some close elections.

    For example just a few(easily found) false flag attempts to cheat in favor of Democrats would allow them to declare any and all Democratic victories suspect.

    Republicans are good at cheating, it's basically been one of the pillars of their electoral strategy for decades.


    The crazy christo fascists got what they (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 09:10:56 AM EST
    wanted.  They got it after decades of being told it was impossible.  They got it because they voted.  Huge numbers as single issue voters.  Since the 70s.

    I didn't say it would be easy or quick.


    Focus on the Underlying Causes (none / 0) (#46)
    by RickyJim on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 12:23:07 PM EST
    1. Giving each state the same representation in the US Senate.
    2. In distant second place, the Electoral College.
    3. And well further back, the judicial supremacy over all legislative actions.

    Blaming one group for failure to vote is myopic and in my guess, statistically false.  A national referendum on a sensible new constitution would definitely get out the vote.

    ... drove the Russian army from the field at the Battle of Borodino in August 1812, and captured Moscow three weeks later. But the French couldn't hold the city and had to retreat after five weeks, which thanks to an early winter turned into an epic military disaster from which Napoleon's fortunes never recovered.

    Just sayin'. The Supreme Court made its ruling in Dobbs. The question is now whether conservatives can hold that ground.

    Think back just four years ago, when the bottom subsequently dropped out of Republican polling in the wake of the SCOTUS confirmation hearings for Brett Kavanaugh. They were running pretty much neck-and-neck with Democrats prior to Kavanaugh's nomination. But they pressed their luck, pi$$ed off a lot of suburban women who rightly saw Kavanaugh as an obvious threat to Roe v. Wade, and the GOP wound up losing 40 seats in the House.

    Throw in SCOTUS's rulings on concealed carry and public-school prayer, along with the Jan. 6 committee's findings and the fact that at least 6 GOP House members (that we know of) requested presidential pardons for their roles in the crap, and there's pretty decent possibility that the GOP could be enveloped by another perfect storm of voter outrage come November.



    Sorry (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 10:56:32 AM EST
    Didn't see the new thread for this

    ?? What? (none / 0) (#11)
    by leap2 on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 02:59:50 PM EST
    FYL? TGE? Don't know what those mean.

    Google (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:10:20 PM EST
    Alternatively (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Peter G on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:16:53 PM EST
    Peter, Exactly what I did but (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jmacWA on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:40:40 PM EST
    only googled FYL... saw the third link and knew something was wacky.

    I DID google right off the bat. (none / 0) (#13)
    by leap2 on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:16:48 PM EST
    But I googled those two abbreviations separately, as they were written, and came up with nothing that fit.



    Ah, hah (none / 0) (#15)
    by Peter G on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:18:54 PM EST
    I often start my comment in the subject line and complete it in the text, when it is short.

    Actually, that is one (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 04:06:05 PM EST
    of the few acronyms I actually got.

    And, it was interesting that it was written by Peter.  His written work here does not usually take such short cuts or use slang, etc.


    OMG (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:42:36 PM EST
    the anger of women and the defensiveness of conservatives tells it all. The only peo0ple who seem truly clueless about all this is the on the ground conservative activists. Peggy Noonan even said today on Chuck Todd's show that the GOP could use this decision to prove that they were the party of women and children and people on the panel laughed at her.

    I just put that in the other thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:48:29 PM EST
    And you are right.  

    It's the activists.  They are on a sugar high.  They will turn this election into all Roe all the time.  They think because they won it's a winning issue.

    They don't quite understand the inherent problem with minority rule.

    But they will.  I think.


    WSJ (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 07:00:29 AM EST

    Now, having achieved a Supreme Court victory that overruled Roe and ended the constitutional right to an abortion, antiabortion advocates are considering what to do next."

    "Some powerful voices in the movement urge a measured approach guided by political realities post-Roe, seeking to ban the procedure after the first trimester in more moderate states and maintaining meaningful exceptions for rape and incest.

    Others view this as a once-in-a-generation moment and moral imperative to push for a complete end to abortion, especially in states where conservatives hold political power. The staunchest opponents want states to treat it as murder.<

    If the Dems were smart, (none / 0) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 07:43:21 PM EST
    they would made the Republicans prove that they were the party of women and children.

    Each day the Dems should force a vote on legislation in the House and the Senate that benefits women and children such as

    Expanded advance monthly child tax credit payments
    Increases in WIC Program
    Free child care
    High quality, free preschool for all 3 and 4 year olds.
    Ensure better child care wages
    Free meals year around
    Free healthcare, dental and vision care
    Free college or trade school

    I'm fairly sure that these votes would prove without a doubt that the Republicans have no interest in supporting children once they are born.

    Unfortunately, I doubt that the Dems will pursue something like this.


    I think your comment (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 07:36:22 AM EST
    assumes republicans care if it is "proven" who they are and what they stand for.  Once upon a time.  Maybe.  That ship has sailed IMO.

    what I think democrats have to do is stop running on policies.  Or at least stop thinking are the most important issue.  The republicans haven't done that for a while.  They didn't even have a platform last time.

    Just What Trump Said.  Which is a good definition of autocracy and fascism.

    What I think democrats should do is start running against fascism.  From coast to coast.   The Republican party is a fascist cult.  

    It is true and they better start saying it.  While they still can.  



    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 08:51:56 AM EST
    Fascism is the Republican governing principle, as a general matter,  and white male Christofascism, as a sub-specialty.  Democrats as well as the media need to call out what is glaringly apparent.  From time-to-time someone will note a rain drop, but few, if any, report that it is raining.

    Democrats efforts for a more perfect Union and to support the general welfare should continue with programs such as set forth by MO Blue, but just as Republican fascism needs to be put on full display, so too do Democratic programs enacted and their  benefits to Americans.  


    Agree. Of course, Republicans won't care (none / 0) (#49)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 03:30:24 PM EST
    the hope is that independent voters especially in the suburbs will care. The point is to prove without a doubt that the Republican Party plans to abandon them after they are born.The hope is to prevent voters from being fooled by Republicans telling them that they will adopt women and children programs to take care of these children after they are born.

    Someone mentioned (none / 0) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 03:46:45 PM EST
    yesterday there are currently about 400,000 children in the system.

    Anti-abortion promoters of adoption (none / 0) (#56)
    by MO Blue on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 05:06:39 PM EST
    respond "Adopt a child...not me."

    Anti-abortion supporters attending a recent March For Life rally were exposed for their ridiculous arguments against the pro-choice crowd. Attendees promoted adoption yet have never adopted or fostered a child themselves, as well as adhering to the "my body my choice" principle for the COVID vaccine but not applying it to abortion and women's reproductive rights.


    I think the (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 10:52:25 AM EST
    same thing. Put forth all the legislation. You know they are not going to vote for it.

    I am really surprised (none / 0) (#5)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 09:55:02 AM EST
    Congress actually pasted their better than nothing gun legislation.

    Hopefully, the funds allocated will go to decent mental health programs. Not all programs give good value for the money collected.

    I may have already posted this (none / 0) (#8)
    by jmacWA on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 11:41:01 AM EST
    BUT... I am looking forward to the most creative way a Red state comes up with to use the funds for something other than a Red Flag law, or mental health.

    No doubt they (none / 0) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 02:15:48 PM EST
    Have already developed tactics to divert the funds.

    They tried (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:48:24 PM EST
    to do something similar back in 2009-10 and it didn't work and conservatives had a meltdown most notably Mark Sanford in SC. If they wrote the legislation right it will be hard for these red states to be "creative" and will have to just refuse the money if they aren't using it for the correct purposes.

    You are forgetting here (none / 0) (#27)
    by jmacWA on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 04:45:40 AM EST
    that the legislation was BIPARTISAN.

    Which means the loopholes to misuse the money were baked in, else the Republicans would have never voted for it.


    Yeah (none / 0) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 10:50:45 AM EST
    but so was the stimulus money back in 2009 bipartisan. I will reserve judgment on it.

    Red flag laws (none / 0) (#70)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 09:40:22 AM EST

    It all depends on how they are written.  Does the target have all the rights of a criminal defendant including a court appointed lawyer if the target cannot afford one?  

    Would a skilled actress like Amber Heard be able to put the wood to Depp with the burden of proof on the target?


    A person subject to a "red flag" law (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Peter G on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 10:27:37 AM EST
    is entitled to procedural due process, that is, the process that is "due" under all the circumstances. What that would entail is complicated.  But it certainly is not "all the rights of a criminal defendant," since a red flag law does not accuse, potentially detain, convict and punish that person for committing a crime.

    So (none / 0) (#77)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 03:59:12 PM EST
    That sounds like the legislatures arbitrarily get to decide just what process is due. Certainly it should be at least as much as any other taking of property without compensation.

    BTW, what rights of a criminal defendant do you think should be unavailable to the target of a red flag law?  


    Unfortunately, (none / 0) (#94)
    by Jack E Lope on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 07:08:22 PM EST
    ...it will probably be something like what the Uvalde, TX school police force did with the mandate & funds for active-shooter training - ineffective, ignored and a waste of money.

    Looking forward to your Maxwell thoughts Jeralyn (none / 0) (#9)
    by McBain on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 11:57:05 AM EST
    I was disappointed her first appeal wasn't granted. Maybe it's always been this way but it seems like more than ever, people are being charged, convicted and sentenced for what they represent to the public not what they actually did.  

    On the civil side, I hope the lawsuit against Brian Laudrie's parents gets dismissed but I fear public opinion will force it to trial.  I haven't seen any proof they knew Gabby Petito was dead before her body was found.  And if they did, so what?  No matter what their son did, they still loved him.  I think most parents would act in the best interest of their child, especially when the death penalty or life without the possibility of parole is possible.    

    Perhaps they convinced themselves there was (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by oculus on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 03:23:00 PM EST
    a chance their son left his fiancé somewhere out west and merely stole her vehicle and drove acrouss the U.S. without her.

    Severance (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 26, 2022 at 04:13:53 PM EST
    I got 3 months of free Apple+ for buying an iPhone.

    I've been watching this.  It's great

    This is so good (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 03:51:02 PM EST
    when I read about it I thought, I will watch Christopher Walken and John Turturro do anything together.

    I did not expect a tender charming bashful gay romance between the 65 and 79 year old.

    This is far from the only reason to watch this but it's the only one I need.


    Trailer (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 03:57:33 PM EST
    The tip of the iceberg (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 10:04:32 AM EST

    Supreme Court Sides With Coach Over Prayers
    June 27, 2022 at 10:27 am EDT By Taegan Goddard 172 Comments

    "The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that a high school football coach had a constitutional right to pray at the 50-yard line after his team's games," the New York Times reports.

    "The vote was 6 to 3, with the court's three liberal members in dissent."

    "The case pitted the rights of government workers to free speech and the free exercise of their faith against the Constitution's prohibition of government endorsement of religion and the ability of public employers to regulate speech in the workplace. The decision was in tension with decades of Supreme Court precedents that forbade pressuring students to participate in religious activities."

    Hey coach... (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 11:03:05 AM EST
    "Do you know which direction Mecca is from here?"

    The coach (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by MKS on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 11:48:02 AM EST
    was a showboat whipping up a crowd.  Crowds that trampled over cheeleaders to get to the spectacle on the field.

    This coach is not Christian.  He never apparently read the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus says to
    pray in private and that those who prayed in public were hypocrites.

    These people are not even Christian.


    An already fraught (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 03:37:32 PM EST
    Constitutional issue,  balancing the Exercise Clause and  the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, was made all the more difficult by the different grasps of the facts in the case.  The factual basis of the majority opinion and that of the minority were as if it was an analysis of two separate and different cases.

    Gorsuch (majority) based his ruling on the Coach losing his job because he knelt after games to offer quiet prayers of thanks.  Sotomayor (minority) had a substantially different factual take which seems obviously  correct when reading the Court record.

    For starters,  It is arguable that the Coach lost his job for the stated reason.  He was suspended with pay, warned in writing.repeatedly, and his annual, renewable contract was not renewed citing several offenses to the employment agreement.

    And, it is much less arguable that the coach was denied his quiet prayer opportunity.  Indeed, the prayer became a religious event on the 50 yard line, and the high school players attendance.evolved along with peer pressure and fear of falling out of favor with the coach.. The quiet prayer was almost, grooming.

    The dissent felt it necessary to track the extensive record before addressing  what  it called the Court's misguided decision because it elevated the religious rights of a school official, the coach, who voluntarily accepted public employment and the limits that public employment entails, over those of his students, who are required to attend school and who this Court has long recognized are particularly vulnerable and deserving of protection.

    Justice Sotomayor concludes "....the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses are equally integrated... the first serves as a promise from our government, while the second erects a backstop that disables our government from breaking it and starting us down the path to the past, when the right to free exercise was intensely abridged."

    "Today, the dissent continues, the Court once again weakens the backstop. It elevates one individual's interest in personal religious exercise , in the exact time and place of that individual's choosing , over society's interest in protecting the separation of Church and State eroding the protections for religious liberty for all."

    And, it might be added, trampled  on and overturned precedents to get to their desired outcome. Moreover, the Court introduced a new test to evaluate such matters : "history and tradition".  An opportunity for more amateur history by Alito.


    Yet (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 04:58:43 PM EST
    another right ripped away, freedom from religion.

    I despise showboating "Christians" more than any other political group (it has nothing to do with faith) at least the full out Nazi's are honest about what they are.


    They (none / 0) (#67)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 07:30:28 AM EST
    are liars supported by supreme liars
    Many people from legal experts to court watchers to journalists to ordinary Americans on social media are criticizing Justice Neil Gorsuch for his majority opinion in a decision siding with a former high school football coach. That coach sued after the school district ordered him to stop praying after every game at the 50-yard line. Justice Gorsuch's opinion, as many are noticing, appears to be based on facts that are false. Several are accusing Gorsuch of just plain lying.
    I would go with "plain" old lying that would embarrass a used car salesman.

    Just (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 07:53:42 AM EST
    saw that smirking a-hole coach on the tube repeating the lie he was praying privately and alone. I don't know why this
    Jesus taught, "When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men ... but when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is unseen."
    every single time they open their lying pieholes.

    In the dissent (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by KeysDan on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 03:55:11 PM EST
    Justice Sotomayor, charitably characterized the factual evidence underpinning the  Court's ruling as having been "misconstrued".  However, it is abundantly clear from the record that Kennedy v Bremerton relied on more than " IKEA Jurisprudence" ---some dissembling required---so as to get the outcome desired.

    More iceberg (none / 0) (#90)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 06:09:16 PM EST

    The Supreme Court on Tuesday reinstated a congressional voting map in Louisiana that a federal judge had said diluted the power of Black voters," the New York Times reports.

    "The court's three liberal members dissented."

    Extreme (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 06:16:15 PM EST
    gerrymandering has long been republicans most effective and consistent electoral cheat.

    Surprise Jan 6 Session June 28 1PM EDT (none / 0) (#47)
    by RickyJim on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 02:08:57 PM EST
    Link How titillating! :-)

    This one has (none / 0) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 03:21:14 PM EST
    me curious.

    I (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 04:44:16 PM EST
    have to say that this committee is the most media savvy product produced by congress I have ever seen, by a long shot.  

    I wonder (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 05:08:19 PM EST
    if they decided that stuff from the film maker was too good and needed to be out there.  Before July.

    I would love it if it is something we know nothing about


    Rawstory (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 05:13:43 PM EST

    The new evidence includes documents from the National Archive and multiple new leads given to a tip-line since the televised hearings began earlier in June.

    The most prized haul though will be hours of footage from documentary filmmaker Alex Holder, who was granted extensive access to Trump and his inner circle -- including for interviews -- before and after January 6.

    Holder began filming on the campaign trail in September 2020, according to Politico, and had substantial access to Trump, Trump's grown-up children and his vice president Mike Pence for

    While the filmmakers (none / 0) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 05:31:09 PM EST
    info might be substantial it seems most people think Ali Alexander is going to testify tomorrow.

    Snopes (none / 0) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 05:49:22 PM EST

    On June 27, 2022, a Telegram account bearing the name of "Stop the Steal" founder Ali Alexander posted the message, "Flying to DC for a special appearance tomorrow." The message appeared to indicate the possibility that Alexander might be a witness at a hearing conducted by the U.S. House Jan. 6 panel on the next day. However, this has not been confirmed. It's possible that this was little more than a joke, better known as trolling.

    That's interesting but it's hard to imagine that little bozo would have something to say worth stopping the presses for.

    Unless he is one ring of the three ring circus.


    They (none / 0) (#62)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 05:58:32 PM EST
    questioned him months ago so I really don't see what is new or urgent about hearing from him.

    Might (none / 0) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 06:59:44 PM EST
    be new information?

    I am thinking the DOJ taking Eastman's phone may have some clue into who is testifying tomorrow. Maybe Cippilone finally?


    Nothing (none / 0) (#65)
    by FlJoe on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 06:40:40 AM EST
    surprising or apparently urgent about this witness
    Hutchinson has answered the panel's questions during three separate sessions and went over "new ground" with the committee last month, though it was not immediately clear what was discussed during that deposition.

    Apparently there is some safety concerns (none / 0) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 07:22:07 AM EST
    credible threats and stuff.  Not sure if that is related to the schedule change.  But there are some changes to the security measures for today too.

    Possibly (none / 0) (#59)
    by FlJoe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 at 05:30:09 PM EST
    they are also trying to front run the DOJ who just seized Eastman's phone,

    I also thought that the delayed the hearings, at least in part,  because they knew the Roe decision was coming down and they didn't want to share the news cycle with that.

    Now something definitely has changed the calculus and they seem eager to grab the front page again.

    Most likely the stuff in the footage is too juicy to sit on for a couple of weeks and risk having it leak.


    20 years (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 02:48:56 PM EST
    From CNN

    Ghislaine Maxwell sentenced to 20 years in prison for sex trafficking minor girls for Jeffrey Epstein

    Why do I feel she probably would have gotten less if she was male?

    Female judge, fwiw. Plus $750,000 fine and (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 04:01:26 PM EST
    Federal prosecutors had sought a 30-55 year sentence for Maxwell, while her defence requested no more than five and quarter.


    Maxwell also addressed the court, saying that meeting Epstein was "the biggest regret of my life" and telling victims: "I hope my conviction and harsh incarceration brings you peace and finality."

    yes, poor Ms Maxwell, suffering for the victims. (none / 0) (#79)
    by leap2 on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 04:14:52 PM EST
    What a lousy snake. Sorry, don't mean to cheapen snakes.

    Not apologizing for her (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 04:34:59 PM EST
    I think she got more or less what she deserved.  Simply saying if a man she might have gotten less.

    I am having trouble imagining a case (none / 0) (#84)
    by Peter G on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 04:54:22 PM EST
    where a man might have been charged with the same criminal conduct. Her principal role was to recruit and then lure the girls into feeling at ease with the situation. Her being an grown woman was essential to fulfilling that role. I don't think any man could have committed the same offense in the same way.

    Whatever (none / 0) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 05:02:30 PM EST
    What I mean, which is totally a feeling from listening to the coverage casually, so...

    that what she did was seen as more heinous, by the public, because she was a woman.  


    I will feel better about the gender part (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 05:05:45 PM EST
    when Matt Gaetz is charged.

    I had a couple of clients, a few years ago (none / 0) (#87)
    by Peter G on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 05:11:48 PM EST
    (in separate cases) who were grown men (one 30ish and one 60ish), each of whom lured teenage boys (young teens) into sexual situations with reassurances that the perpetrator was their protector. Both expressed the same idea to the judge at their sentencings, i.e., that what they did was loving and helpful to the boys. Both got much longer sentences than Maxwell. The younger man got a life sentence. The older man got 30 years and died in prison.

    That does not surprise me (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 05:16:28 PM EST
    They were boys.

    "The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy."


    The boys in those cases (none / 0) (#92)
    by Peter G on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 06:44:46 PM EST
    were about the same age as the girls in the Epstein case. I was just reporting, not analyzing.

    So (none / 0) (#124)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 07:28:32 PM EST
    R. Kelly got 30 years

    Fair enough.  But he's black and R. Kelly and there was a racketeering charge.  


    He didn't like 30 years (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 11:18:40 AM EST
    so he asked for a younger sentence

    Gender Schmender (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 01:33:02 PM EST
    I suppose it would be unacceptably "Bernie Bro" of me to mention the glaringly obvious (to some) class conflict aspect of the Ghislaine saga.

    To overstate the obvious for the slow on the uptake, right from the beginning, there's been a very widespread perception of Ghislaine's machinations being informed by the conceits of a latter day Leona Helmsley, i.e., "let the unwashed little people eat cake and conform to their silly man-made rules" etc

    In a country where 90% of the wealth is controlled by 10% of populace, it's a very bad time for the decadent aristocracy to be waving their whips and chains and dog collars in the faces of the public.

    If nothing else, it's a serious problem of "optics," to state the matter in the kind of DNC jive folks around seem to be attuned to.


    NATO expansion (none / 0) (#141)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 03:14:44 PM EST
    got ya down?🙁

    I was just coming back to the site (none / 0) (#128)
    by Peter G on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 08:10:21 PM EST
    to post that! Obviously, any two cases in the real world can be distinguished from one another. From what little I have seen of such cases, I think the (few) women defendants get treated worse, because judges (whether they admit it or not) expect women to have a nature instinct to care for children, and when they don't act that way, they get slammed for it. Even though, in truth, nearly all women who commit violent or sexual crimes against children are or have been themselves severe abuse victims, either earlier or contemporaneously, or both.

    Judges's thinking regarding sentence (none / 0) (#81)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 04:35:21 PM EST
    Maxwell, in a prepared statement, told the victims she recognized their pain. But she stopped short of accepting responsibility for it.
    Nathan said she chose a prison term longer than what she believed the guidelines called for because it was "important to note [Maxwell's] lack of acceptance of responsibility."

    That strikes me as odd (none / 0) (#83)
    by Peter G on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 04:51:08 PM EST
    ... since the federal sentencing guidelines are supposed to address a case where the defendant does not accept responsibility. There are specific rules for how much the judge should ordinarily deduct where the defendant does accept responsibility.

    A little more on the subject (none / 0) (#89)
    by MO Blue on Tue Jun 28, 2022 at 05:34:48 PM EST
    Judge Alison Nathan calculated that the sentencing guidelines called for about 15½ to 19½ years in prison. Yet she delivered a sentence slightly above that range, noting the victims' disturbing testimony and Maxwell's "direct and repeated participation in a horrific scheme."

    "Miss Maxwell is not punished in place of Epstein," she said. "Miss Maxwell is being punished for the role that she played."

    Nathan also said Maxwell failed to accept responsibility for her role in the crimes or show remorse.



    This series of hearings (none / 0) (#97)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 11:31:12 AM EST
    is being run like a season of Peaky Blinders or Game of Thrones.   At the end of every episode they leave you with a cliffhanger wanting more.  Stuff to speculate about until next time.

    It pretty brilliant.

    They are doing a great job (none / 0) (#98)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jun 29, 2022 at 11:35:49 AM EST
    It is a shame that other hearings on important matters are turned into clown shows.

    RIP Ralph "Sonny" Barger. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 07:37:13 PM EST
    Despite your opinions, good or bad, he was an American icon. One tough SOB. I met him once, at a run in Hanford, CA. He was gracious and engaging. I enjoyed my conversation with him

    Yeah, I met Sonny a couple of times. (none / 0) (#148)
    by fishcamp on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 10:08:44 PM EST
    He was in the Oakland chapter while I was filming the Sf chapter.  He was a real bad guy back then.  He stuffed a couple of  guys down a well and poured lye on them while still alive.  He did change for the better, but his early days were bad.

    Mistakes were made. (none / 0) (#150)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 30, 2022 at 10:53:53 PM EST
    I met him later in life. (none / 0) (#154)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 09:10:50 AM EST
    After throat cancer.

    And no Mormon elders (none / 0) (#156)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 12:09:13 PM EST
    ever came to his house after that.

    And I've been riding for close to 40 years.

    Our paths never crossed.


    I just got a Sportster (none / 0) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 01:05:13 PM EST
    it still getting some work.  New pipes. New seat.  I pick it up next week.  I'm excited.

    Not my first Harley but it's been a while.

    2009 Sportster Custom


    Be careful and be safe. (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 01:16:07 PM EST
    My riding days are over. Too many health issues. Started with my knees.

    That's a good looking bike. (none / 0) (#164)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 05:08:51 PM EST
    Looks comfortable, too.

    1200 is a little bigger (none / 0) (#167)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 05:37:14 PM EST
    than I was planning to get. I had a Shadow 750 for long time.  But it was a really good deal.   It is very comfortable.

    I saw the new pipes today.  They look great.


    Sounds great, enjoy! (none / 0) (#169)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 06:06:00 PM EST
    I was motorcycle adjacent (none / 0) (#158)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 01:14:20 PM EST
    to that world a lifetime ago. Never was a patchholder, but rubbed shoulders with many club members in my travels. Quite often was provided with food and shelter by them.

    Sonny was more or less the "star" of Hunter Thompson's book on the HA. He was the "chief" in those days.


    Harley dudes he was researching for the book?

    He did (none / 0) (#166)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 05:22:32 PM EST
    The main reason Hunter got beaten up (none / 0) (#170)
    by fishcamp on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 08:09:13 PM EST
    by the Angels was over the advance money he didn't share with them for the book. They have had many snapshots turned into posters and sold without their permission.  I was on a run filming them heading up to their land in Healdsburg, Ca. when they all stopped at a corn dog joint to grab some food and cokes.  The cops were there and the Hells Angels sgt. at arms was talking with him when the Angel spotted a guy popping out from behind a tree taking snapshots.  The HA went over and asked him to stop, which he didn't do. The HA went back over and stomped the guys camera.  The guy complained to the cop who merely said you had been warned.

    video'd, etc., in public...

    Video of Trumping lunging in limo (none / 0) (#160)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 01:31:54 PM EST
    Check this out.

    Trump lunges forward in limo

    Look at the longer 1:24 video, not the shorter 5 second version.

    You can see someone in the backseat, behind the driver, lunging repeatedly forward.

    And there are new accounts that this story of Trump lunging in the limo was a story that has been circulating for months.  So, Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony that such a story was told has been verified.

    Perhaps all gossip.  But Trump was undisputedly angry and wanted to be taken to the Capitol. And this video appears to show him lunging forward in the limo.

    Scroll "up" (none / 0) (#161)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 01:32:47 PM EST
     in the link for the 1:24 version of the limo lunging.

    Enlarge the 1:24 version (none / 0) (#162)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 01:36:25 PM EST
    to view.

    Cheney, is she that smart that she baited Ornato like this?  He will "testify" now under oath?  Oh really???


    I have (none / 0) (#168)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 05:38:24 PM EST
    to say that today when it came out that the story had been "circulating" for quite a while and one of the ones that told the story was told directly by the agent there i wasn't surprised.

    And, I thought (none / 0) (#163)
    by MKS on Fri Jul 01, 2022 at 01:54:41 PM EST
    it was so odd during the hearings that Cheney showed the 1;24 video.  The limo was not moving, and what was the point?  And the video seemed to be very long.

    The sad state of affairs in US (none / 0) (#173)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 01:02:23 PM EST
    Without a doubt, one of these loonies will replace Chaney in the House.


    There's no a Democrat gets elected (5.00 / 2) (#183)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 07:42:03 PM EST
    To this seat. So Dems should vote en masse for her if she runs as an independent should she lose the primary. I believe Cheney could pull off a Murkowski.

    OMG... (none / 0) (#174)
    by desertswine on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 01:09:52 PM EST
    I don't count her out (none / 0) (#175)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 02:23:30 PM EST
    till it's over.  That video could make a difference I think.  It's alarming and gone viral.

    It's a tall hill (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 03:45:29 PM EST
    to climb from now to November. Let's hope you are right. As much as I dislike Cheney`s policies, the alternatives are a 1000 times worse.

    Evidently spelling is not my best subject (none / 0) (#178)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 03:42:58 PM EST
    Should read "will replace Cheney in the House."

    What is TV (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 02, 2022 at 02:33:48 PM EST
    It's not what it used to be.  Just watched the finally.  2.5 hours.  Not much like tv at all.

    Stranger Things' Smashes Nielsen Streaming Records With More Than 7.2 Billion Minutes Watched in One Week

    A Portrait of Donald Trump (none / 0) (#191)
    by RickyJim on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 05:06:25 PM EST
    From a film maker who spent months working with tfg his and family.
    Holder: Donald Trump is not a rational player. I mean, he just isn't. You can't have a conversation with him in the same way that you can have a conversation with most other people. He is somebody that lives in a different reality. He had started the lie about the election back in 2016. What I saw after the first interview with him in the White House was that he now became someone who believed in his own lie, and that is a person who is delusional. That is a person who is incredibly dangerous, because you can't debate with that person. There is no way that anybody can persuade Donald Trump that he's wrong. And this is something that's characteristic of him all the way through his life, and the series goes into this in the sense that he will never accept that he had done anything wrong. He will always double back. He's always right, and it's always somebody else's fault. I mean, he lives in cloud cuckoo land. He's sitting in an interview in Mar-a-Lago saying that in front of a portrait, an actual oil painting of himself painted 25 to 30 years ago in a golf outfit. I mean, I actually asked about that at the end of the interview. I was like, "You've got to tell me about this painting." I mean, this is a guy who literally has paintings of himself in his house. I mean, he's just not a normal guy. I mean, you know?

    If Trump goes on trial, will the defense use this to refute consciousness of guilt?

    No (none / 0) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 05:33:09 PM EST
    I don't think it will.

    Film maker psychology aside you could say all of that about Hitler, Kim Jong Un or Caligula


    I (none / 0) (#193)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 06:46:20 PM EST
    would buy an insanity defense, charge him and let his legal team prove it, that will be fun.

    The federal insanity defense is very limited (none / 0) (#194)
    by Peter G on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 07:41:22 PM EST
    thanks to a statute enacted in response to the Hinckley acquittal. In addition, the defense cannot use an expert witness to address the impact of the defendant's mental condition on the "knowledge" or "intent" that is an element of the offense; the jury is supposed to decide that issue based on common sense inferences. Those rules are not good for a person with Tr*mp's kind of derangement.

    Told ya so (none / 0) (#195)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 07:50:16 PM EST

    Liz Cheney Mulls Run for President
    July 3, 2022 at 8:34 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 9 Comments

    Rep. Liz Cheney (R-WY) acknowledged the possibility of a presidential run in 2024 in an interview with ABC News, but said she hasn't "made a decision about that yet."

    Well (none / 0) (#196)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jul 03, 2022 at 08:40:10 PM EST
    duh, the good news is she will have to burn tRumpism to the ground first, the bad news is that if she is successful she will become president eventually, more likely in 28.

    By then Ivanka will decide (none / 0) (#199)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 04, 2022 at 02:11:16 AM EST
    it is her turn. Or Don Jr. Don Jr. is probably dumb enough to pick Rudy's kid, the golfer who is now running for Gov of NY, to be the next Dan Quayle.

    I seriously hope the days of Dynasty are behind us.


    Stick a fork in the "Trump Dynasty". (none / 0) (#200)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jul 04, 2022 at 09:12:36 AM EST
    It's done.

    And I think Liz will be a threat in 24.  

    Her whole thing is riding the wave.


    That might just cement my intention (none / 0) (#197)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 04, 2022 at 02:07:34 AM EST
    of moving out of this country -- and make it happen sooner.

    there is a new open thread up (none / 0) (#198)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jul 04, 2022 at 02:08:03 AM EST
    this one is at 198 comments and we close at 200.