More Than 1,000 Protesters Detained in Russia

There have been protests in Russia against Putin's war in the Ukraine. As of today, more than 1,000 have been detained by police.

Their names and places of detention are listed in case you know someone who is looking for a disappeared family member.

There's a pretty big protest going on in Pushkin Square, about 100 meters from the Red Square and Kremlim.

I've also seen some photos of Russian soldiers captured by the Ukraine Army.

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    History teaches that if non-violent protest (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Peter G on Thu Feb 24, 2022 at 04:12:46 PM EST
    catches fire in Russia, it could the most powerful force against Putin's grandiosity, nationalism and warmongering -- more important even than armed resistance in the Ukraine.

    The Russian Arm (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 12:13:39 PM EST
    is revered in my industry.

    About 30 years or so ago a Ukrainian engineer named Anatoliy Kokush invented a motion-picture camera support arm that was gyrostabilized. He based the design on the Russian tank technology that had gyrostabilized turret guns.

    The arm mounts to the top of a vehicle and the camera stays level and steady despite the vehicle's bumping and bouncing at speed over dirt roads, battlefields, etc.

    The arm literally revolutionized moviemaking. It has been used on 10s of thousands of movies, TV shows, and commercials. In the early 2000s Anatoliy earned 2 Oscars for the Russian Arm.

    He initially named the arm the "Autorobot" but us Westerners always referred to it as the "Russian Arm" so Anatoliy officially adopted that name for the arm in the 90's.

    Yesterday, Anatoliy officially re-named the arm the "U-Crane."

    Have you heard (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 05:30:51 PM EST
    I have not (none / 0) (#128)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 06:05:41 PM EST
    but I'm guessing you have

    Yes (none / 0) (#129)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 06:10:31 PM EST
    I did not know him but I met him a couple of times.

    Almost all the friends I made at DD in 93 came from ILM and knew him and were always talking about the crazy genius.


    More than a million refugees and many more (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 08:49:07 PM EST
    to come.  This is a humanitarian crisis of epic proportion.

    After seven days of Russian assault, the United Nations refugee agency announced that 1 million people have fled Ukraine since the invasion, the swiftest exodus of refugees this century.

    The UN (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 05, 2022 at 10:45:14 AM EST
    I think when an international war criminal actively involved in war crimes has veto power on the UN Security Council, it's time to rethink the rules.

    That's an excellent way to put it (none / 0) (#2)
    by ladybug on Thu Feb 24, 2022 at 05:07:57 PM EST
    and captures some of what Biden was alluding to today in his talk. The sanctions may quicken these efforts.

    Apparently a platoon (none / 0) (#3)
    by MKS on Thu Feb 24, 2022 at 06:46:31 PM EST
    of Russian soldiers surrendered to the Ukrainians because they did not want to fight against fellow Slavs.

    Putin does seem alone on this.   But he clearly has the ability to cow everyone around him.

    "Fellow slavs." Hah! (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Peter G on Thu Feb 24, 2022 at 07:25:04 PM EST
    That is exactly the kind of racist, protofascist thinking that caused my ancestors to flee that part of the world 125 years ago, with no regrets about what they left behind.

    I have no idea what is (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 25, 2022 at 02:52:47 PM EST
    Protofacist about this and I doubt MKS does.  I have heard exactly that term used in exactly that way at least 20 times in print and broadcast in the last couple of days.

    Please explain.  I always love hearing your opinion and I like learning new things.


    Human beings should not be willing (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 26, 2022 at 09:22:59 AM EST
    to kill any fellow human beings for a nationalist "cause." A reluctance to kill that extends only to those of one's own ethnicity ("fellow Slavs") is based on the same thinking that underlies racism. (I was reacting to the comment attributed to the platoon of Russian soldiers, and did not mean to suggest that MKS or anyone else agreed with that sentiment.) Sadly, such thinking is deeply rooted in the East European culture, as it is in so many others, by no means limited to Europeans (look at India, or Myanmar, or conflicts in Africa). Of the six million or so Jews killed in the Holocaust, some 25% -- around 1.5 million -- were killed in the Ukraine. Mainly by the Germans, yes, but with extensive assistance from murderous local collaborators, who far outnumbered the righteous resisters. And those people (Germans and Ukrainian "Christians" alike) defined the Jews they killed as being of a different "race." They never viewed Jewish people living in Ukraine as Ukrainian, any more than Hungarian Jews were viewed as Hungarian, or Polish Jews as fellow Poles. (Happily, it seems that such thinking has abated in Ukraine, given that when they held their first real democratic election, the winning candidate, President Zelenskyy, was himself Jewish.) Nor is such ethnocentric thinking limited to antisemitism; look at the war in Bosnia. Defining the value of human life by race or ethnicity, in my view, is inherently "protofascist" (that is, leading to or potentially supportive of fascism) and incompatible with democratic values, as well as incompatible with peace.

    So (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 26, 2022 at 10:04:32 AM EST
    would the term "black on black crime" get the same reaction?

    Not from me, it wouldn't. Apples & oranges (none / 0) (#16)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 26, 2022 at 12:32:00 PM EST
    The expression "black on black crime" can be used by serious students of crime statistics, urban violence and/or criminogenesis, or by racists trying to deflect from people raising legitimate questions of oppression of Black people. Neither is similar to the reaction I had to the suggestion that we would celebrate Russian soldiers refraining from attacking certain Ukrainians purely out of ethnic solidarity.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Feb 26, 2022 at 12:39:21 PM EST
    You definitely have yourself an opinion there.

    I can see why you mock me but (none / 0) (#19)
    by ladybug on Sun Feb 27, 2022 at 12:10:29 PM EST
    I don't see why you would mock Peter G. The two terms are completely unalike. "Fellow Slavs" could easily be used by neo-Nazis to describe each other, while "black on black" is used in exactly the way Peter G. describes.  It is a neutral descriptive term.  

    My Captain (none / 0) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:07:04 PM EST
    Why would you suspect foreign students are trying to get out at the Polish border and not Hungary?

    My goodness, (none / 0) (#7)
    by ladybug on Fri Feb 25, 2022 at 03:16:59 PM EST
    are you mocking my decidedly feminine academic tone?
    I admit I am both of those things. Anyway, I was also interested in hearing more about this comment so I'm glad you asked.

    So we agree (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Feb 25, 2022 at 03:22:16 PM EST
    I'm excited

    Yay! (none / 0) (#9)
    by ladybug on Fri Feb 25, 2022 at 03:22:36 PM EST
    Come on! (none / 0) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 03:54:46 PM EST
    It is.

    I married into a Slavic family, and making such a reference pertaining to the region is proto-fascist. Come on you guys, you know better than this.

    Josh wanted his nickname on the bocce ball team to be "the slav". I cringed. The coach said "No!", that's an ethnic slur LOL


    If you say so (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:13:48 PM EST
    but I certainly knew no such thing (a) as the question implies and (2) my point was and I suppose is if this is true mainstream media has a lot of catching up to do because you heard that term 10 times a day just on cable news.

    It was an honest question


    I have not (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:23:13 PM EST
    Heard it much after the first few days tho.  Now that I think about it.

    I guess the word got out to the medias.


    What color are your eyes? (none / 0) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:28:33 PM EST
    Mine are green. Come with me to Prague. And I love Prague, but everyone in Prague doesn't necessarily love me and sometimes it is more than a wee bit obvious.

    A good friend of ours was born here but her mom and dad are from the Czech Republic. At the very least, we celebrate Christmas Eve every year with our friend, her husband and their kids, and her mom, Yana. Yana has very green eyes. She cooks catfish every Christmas Eve.

    Are you saying that Yana was "not necessarily loved" because of her green eyes when she lived in Prague? And not now, also, when she goes back to visit once or twice a year?


    A good friend of ours was born here but her mom and dad are from the Czech Republic. At the very least, we celebrate Christmas Eve every year with our friend, her husband and their kids, and her mom, Yana. Yana has very green eyes. She cooks catfish every Christmas Eve.

    Are you saying that Yana was "not necessarily loved" because of her green eyes when she lived in Prague? And not now, also, when she goes back to visit once or twice a year?


    A good friend of ours was born here but her mom and dad are from the Czech Republic. At the very least, we celebrate Christmas Eve every year with our friend, her husband and their kids, and her mom, Yana. Yana has very green eyes. She cooks catfish every Christmas Eve.

    Are you saying that Yana was "not necessarily loved" because of her green eyes when she lived in Prague? And not now, also, when she goes back to visit once or twice a year?


    Oof. Embarrassing.Triple post. (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 10:29:17 PM EST
    Sorry. My home internet is not great apparently.

    That's a new record, I think. (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by desertswine on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 01:21:38 AM EST
    "Racist"? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Yman on Fri Feb 25, 2022 at 04:23:11 PM EST
    My ancestors also fled that part of the world around the turn of the century.  No idea what is "racist" (or protofascist) about this comment.

    Not my terminology (none / 0) (#11)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 25, 2022 at 04:30:06 PM EST
    It is my understanding the soldiers are the ones who used those terms....

    Sure (none / 0) (#13)
    by Yman on Sat Feb 26, 2022 at 07:05:00 AM EST
    But it's also not a racist term.  it could be used as a pejorative (depending upon the context), but it doesn't even refer to a race - just people from a particular region.  I don't get it.

    First clue (none / 0) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 03:55:47 PM EST
    Soldiers call each other that LOL

    See my response in (none / 0) (#17)
    by Peter G on Sat Feb 26, 2022 at 12:33:33 PM EST
    comment #14.

    As SNCC demonstrated, and Gandhi before them (none / 0) (#4)
    by Peter G on Thu Feb 24, 2022 at 07:21:18 PM EST
    (and the suffragists before that) non-violent resistance requires courage, and the willingness to suffer. But it often works against violent bullies who lack any genuine claim to the moral high ground.

    Not so sure (none / 0) (#12)
    by MKS on Fri Feb 25, 2022 at 04:33:27 PM EST
    I think non-violent demonstrations can and do work against civil societies that tend to respect, or at least say they respect, civil rights, etc.

    Thus, Ghandi against the Brits; and MLK here.

    Against Stalin and Hitler, it is a totally different issue.

    But, then again, in the age of immediate digital communication the audience is not really Putin.


    No longer neutral (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 06:52:23 AM EST

    Swiss poised to freeze Russian assets - president

    In response to the question could Putin be "removed"
    someone answered only if you quarantine for three weeks and take multiple PCR tests.

    And (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 06:54:45 AM EST
    More (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 08:38:32 AM EST
    U.S. Bans Transactions with Russian Central Bank
    February 28, 2022 at 9:52 am EST By Taegan Goddard 27 Comments

    "The U.S. has taken its most aggressive step yet to cripple Russia's economy and financial system, announcing a ban on transactions with Russia's central bank and new sanctions on the Russian Direct Investment Fund and its chief executive Kirill Dmitriev," the Financial Times reports.

    "The move by the U.S. Treasury on Monday morning follows a joint pledge by western nations on Saturday to block Russia's ability to access roughly $630bn in foreign reserves and impose huge costs on its economy in the wake of its invasion of Ukraine."

    CNBC: "The new measures will also target the National Wealth Fund of the Russian Federation and the Ministry of Finance of the Russian Federation."

    This is the atom bomb of economic sanctions.

    And (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 08:43:56 AM EST

    "By targeting Russia's central bank with sanctions, experts said, American and European leaders have taken aim at what could be one of President Vladimir Putin's greatest weaknesses: the country's currency," the New York Times reports.

    "In Russian cities, anxious customers started lining up on Sunday in front of ATM's, hoping to withdraw the money they had deposited in banks, fearful it would run out. The panic spread on Monday."

    "In Russia today, as the purchasing power of the ruble drops sharply, consumers who hold it are finding that they can buy less with their money. In real terms, they become poorer. Such economic instability could stoke popular unhappiness and even unrest."

    Great (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 01:42:21 PM EST

    Russian oligarchs move yachts as U.S. looks to `hunt down' and freeze assets

    A couple of ollies including Deripaska have comeout publicly against the war.


    Does that include (5.00 / 4) (#30)
    by leap2 on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 02:52:07 PM EST
    Manchin's yacht? And his Maserati? That would be cool.

    Biden meets the moment (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 06:59:29 AM EST

     "Biden is an Atlanticist who likes to brag about how he stayed in touch with European leaders while out of office from 2017 to 2021. He is a creature of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Munich Security Conference. He came up in politics immersed in the debates of the Cold War, which are now newly relevant. When he said recently that `the United States will defend every inch of NATO territory with the full force of American power,' he could have been lifting the line from one of his 1988 presidential campaign speeches."

    "Biden, in this view, is uniquely suited for the new role that has been thrust upon him."

    "It was Biden and his team's patience and close consultation with European allies that has led to the extraordinary unity now on display. Biden's patience waiting to impose sanctions until after the invasion, even in the face of intense criticism, has been vindicated because Putin would have pointed to preemptive sanctions as a provocation and a reason to invade. Biden said that Germany would abandon the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline if Putin attacked and he was right, because he had been engaged in quiet diplomacy on the issue all along."


    When CIA Director William Burn (none / 0) (#37)
    by KeysDan on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 04:08:45 PM EST
    was sent to Moscow in November of 2021 to tell Putin we knew he was  planning to invade Ukraine, it seemed that the Biden Administration had a strategy to deal with what he was up to not only in Ukraine, but also to counter the bloodless war he had been conducting against the West. Biden is the leader of the Western Alliance, a role Chancellor Merkle essentially carried during the void of the former guy.

    Not just bad for Putin (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 01:39:29 PM EST

    Populist Embrace of Putin Cools
    February 28, 2022 at 1:00 pm EST By Taegan Goddard 86 Comments

    Wall Street Journal: "What Europe's populists saw in Mr. Putin was a kindred spirit, a leader willing to disregard the rules of international cooperation that emerged in the wake of World War II, underpinned by the military might of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. They admired Mr. Putin's unapologetic nationalism and his deep-seated distrust of the U.S."

    "That admiration is now running up against the reality of Mr. Putin's forces pouring into Ukraine. Some populists are rushing to distance themselves, branding Mr. Putin's aggression a setback of historic proportions."

    Sure (none / 0) (#27)
    by FlJoe on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 01:56:34 PM EST
    it's all fun and games until the rockets come down on the cities. I see Tucker and the rest of the usual suspects are backpedaling.

    Even tRump acknowledged he is being a bad boy (but still smart).


    I read FOX (none / 0) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 02:02:49 PM EST
    is now calling for Puth's assassination.

    I agree.  The Russia/Putin boosters are looking pretty silly.  Silly as in dangerously treasonously delusional.

    It won't matter to the right 30%.  I think it will to the next 30%.


    I keep reading how Tucker is going to (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 02:07:20 PM EST
    run for president.  As pathetic as it is I think he could be a threat.  Or could have been.

    I think his remarks on Russia will be a problem there.  More of a problem the worse it gets.

    Personally I think it's very likely going to get much worse.  


    Yeah (none / 0) (#31)
    by FlJoe on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 02:55:57 PM EST
    until the next 30% is "allowed" to forget.



    Good point (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 03:00:16 PM EST
    And if course FOX is only calling for Putin's assassination so they can call Biden weak for not doing it.

    They will buy that


    And I am also (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 03:05:41 PM EST
    guessing that Fox viewers are too stupid to know that we can't go around assassinating leaders of other countries.

    Yep (none / 0) (#36)
    by FlJoe on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 03:10:47 PM EST
    the scripts are pretty easy to write if you can flat out ignore what you said yesterday and have no regard for the truth.



    Yes (none / 0) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 03:04:30 PM EST
    but we have receipts. The same suspects have thought elections are all fun and games too until we end up with Russian assets running the country and an insurrection.

    Populism (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 03:06:22 PM EST
    both left and right is getting a good reaming these days and is dying on the vine it seems.

    Thermobaric bomb (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 06:03:17 PM EST
    From wiki

    According to a US Central Intelligence Agency study,[15] "the effect of an FAE explosion within confined spaces is immense. Those near the ignition point are obliterated. Those at the fringe are likely to suffer many internal, thus invisible injuries, including burst eardrums and crushed inner ear organs, severe concussions, ruptured lungs and internal organs, and possibly blindness." Another Defense Intelligence Agency document speculates that, because the "shock and pressure waves cause minimal damage to brain tissue ... it is possible that victims of FAEs are not rendered unconscious by the blast, but instead suffer for several seconds or minutes while they suffocate".[16]

    This had not occurred to me (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 28, 2022 at 08:39:38 PM EST

    Pat Robertson Says Putin `Compelled by God' to Invade
    February 28, 2022 at 7:35 pm EST By Taegan Goddard 173 Comments

    Pat Robertson came out of retirement to declare that Russian President Vladimir Putin is following God's plan by invading Ukraine, insisting this is part of an "End Times" battle.

    Said Robertson: "People say that Putin's out of his mind. Yes, maybe so. But at the same time, he's being compelled by God. He went into the Ukraine but that wasn't his goal. His goal was to move against Israel, ultimately."

    He elaborated that Ukraine was "a staging area" for a great Biblical army that will gather for Armageddon.

    One of the moments that will live forever (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 07:15:22 AM EST
    This is a big deal (none / 0) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 08:28:06 AM EST

    Following the initial decisions adopted by the FIFA Council and the UEFA Executive Committee, which envisaged the adoption of additional measures, FIFA and UEFA have today decided together that all Russian teams, whether national representative teams or club teams, shall be suspended from participation in both FIFA and UEFA competitions until further notice

    Russian athletes are now being banned (none / 0) (#42)
    by MO Blue on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 09:49:33 AM EST
    The International Skating Union (ISU) made the decision, saying that no Russian or Belarusian athletes "shall be invited or allowed to participate" in upcoming skating events, according to The Associated Press.

    The International Volleyball Federation on Tuesday also joined the ISU in banning Russian athletes from competing and removing Russia as its host country for the men's world championships
    The Norwegian Ski Federation also said Tuesday that it is banning Russian athletes from competing in its upcoming World Cup events.

    The Hill


    Waiting for the condemnations of (none / 0) (#47)
    by Peter G on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 02:23:44 PM EST
    "cancel culture," on behalf of the poor athletes and oligarchs.

    Some sympathy might (1.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 02:56:32 PM EST
    be mustered-up if some good pictures can be posted of blue-eyed-blonde oligarchs with sad expressions.

    As opposed to say, the ones you see of swarthy, unwashed Yemenites and Palestinians.


    What the hell does that mean? (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 11:36:46 AM EST
    We are not talking about Yemenites and Palestinians.

    I guess we should not support the Ukainians because they are white and we did not do enough to avoid deaths among Yemenites and Palestinians?

    The issue is the unprovoked invasion of Russian into the Ukraine.  Zelinsky was elected.  These are not just speed bumps along the way to your observations about racial issues.  


    We should support everyone (none / 0) (#124)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 03:05:54 PM EST
    is the point.

    Going to be an interesting SOU speech (none / 0) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 11:05:06 AM EST
    It would be like Putin to start hammering the cities while the speech is happening.

    The SOTU opening line I'd like to hear: (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Jack E Lope on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:22:55 PM EST
    The elephant in the room is Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and those who support that invasion.

    Ukrainian Ambassador (none / 0) (#44)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 01:31:17 PM EST
    to the US will attend the SOTU as a guest of First Lady Jill Biden.

    I might actually watch the whole thing (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 01:44:36 PM EST
    My ADHD (or as I like to call it, multitasking) usually doesn't let me make it all the way through.

    I plan to (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 02:00:53 PM EST
    watch the whole thing.  Just having two great women, the Vice President and Speaker of the House behind the President, is worthy of the watch.  And, with Jill's guests  (rather than Malaria's guest, the odious Rush Limbaugh), along with the democracy v fascism theme, here and abroad,  it should be historic start to finish.

    I don't think (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 03:28:22 PM EST
    I have watched a complete SOTU since the 90's. Bush's malapropisms and Texas twang were too annoying, Obama was too evangelical and Trump too dark. I might at least try tonight. I get what you're saying.

    Speaking (none / 0) (#51)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:21:39 PM EST
    of tRump, I heard him on the radio hawking his American freedom tour, "tickets as low as 9.99, get them now!".  Bizarre and crass.

    The Patriots (none / 0) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 03:35:42 PM EST
    Given the.attack on the Capitol by Republican insurrections a little over a year ago, the Pentagon approved the deployment of 800 unarmed National Guard troops to provide support to the DC area at the time of the SOTU. The Capitol Police and DC government also asked for National Guard help since the entire US government      (Executive, Congress and SupremeCourt) will be represented.

    Florida's Republican Governor Ron DeSantis rejected the request for Florida National Guard troops.   US Senator from Florida, Marco Rubio announced that he would not be attending the SOTU owing to his rejection of the Covid-testing requirement. Rubio stated that he only takes the test when he is sick, apparently still not grasping  public health precaution--for himself and others.  Including colleagues and friends across the aisle who may be vulnerable.


    In response to what Dan (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:45:58 PM EST
    and MKS said about that Putin speech, it's just stupid, pig-headed, and a few other words I could use to claim that what Russia's doing has nothing whatsoever to do with NATO expansion. We have heard of overdetermination around here, right? In other words, there can be more than one reason why Putin seemingly wants to reconstitute the Russian Empire, above and beyond expansionist dreams of empire and some totalitarian self-aggrandizement impulse.

    Expansionism for security, and whatever other multifarious reasons, is always accompanied by public rhetoric designed to galvanize the support of the populace. This is nothing new. Of course, maybe we can't relate because we've never had any history-bastardizing, wild-swinging demagogues and warmongers in positions of power in this country. Heaven forbid.

    America wouldn't tolerate for one micro-second a project to have missiles pointed at us from every one of our borders, yet everyone wants to say "what's your problem buddy?" to Russia, as if nothing of consequence occurred in that part of the world in the last 80 years.

    What Putin is doing right now (none / 0) (#54)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:48:59 PM EST
    kind of explains why his neighbors feel they need to be armed.

    Doesn't it?


    We are not going to annex Mexico (none / 0) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:50:12 PM EST
    or Canada.

    Or even (none / 0) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:53:17 PM EST

    The only thing (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:55:38 PM EST
    that stopped Cuba from happening was those missiles.

    You will love this (none / 0) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 05:03:42 PM EST
    Nuland is a Machievellian (none / 0) (#81)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 12:45:49 PM EST
    war pig who's been immersed in it for so long, along with her PNAC husband Robert Kagan, that she has no self awareness of what she's doing.

    And of course she's a key member of a number of think tanks funded by the usual suspects: Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin etc etc who all stand to make billions, if not trillions, providing weaponry to NATO.


    Victoria Nuland (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 12:56:12 PM EST
    not really known to me.  

    ...was born in 1961 to Sherwin B. Nuland, a surgeon of Ukrainian Jewish origin,[8] and Rhona McKhann.[9] She graduated from Choate Rosemary Hall in 1979.[10] She earned a Bachelor of Arts degree from Brown University in 1983, where she studied Russian literature, political science, and history.[11

    From 1993 to 1996, during Bill Clinton's presidency, Nuland was chief of staff to Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott before moving on to serve as deputy director for former Soviet Union affairs.[12] From 2003 to 2005, Nuland served as the principal deputy foreign policy adviser to Vice President Dick Cheney, exercising an influential role during the Iraq War. From 2005 to 2008, during President George W. Bush's second term, Nuland served as U.S. ambassador to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) in Brussels, where she concentrated on mobilizing European support for the U.S. occupation of Afghanistan.[13] In the summer of 2011, Nuland became special envoy for Conventional Armed Forces in Europe[14] and then became State Department spokesperson.[15]

    In May 2013, Nuland was nominated to act as Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs[16] and was sworn in on September 18, 2013.[17] In her role as assistant secretary, she managed diplomatic relations with 50 countries in Europe and Eurasia, as well as with NATO, the European Union and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

    Ukraine    Edit
    Nuland was the lead U.S. point person for the Revolution of Dignity, establishing loan guarantees to Ukraine, including a $1 billion loan guarantee in 2014, and the provisions of non-lethal assistance to the Ukrainian military and border guard.[18][19] Along with Secretary of State John Kerry and Secretary of Defense Ash Carter, she is seen as a leading supporter of defensive weapons delivery to Ukraine. In 2016, Nuland urged Ukraine to start prosecuting corrupt officials: "It's time to start locking up people who have ripped off the Ukrainian population for too long and it is time to eradicate the cancer of corruption".[20] While serving as the Department of State's lead diplomat on the Ukraine crisis, Nuland pushed European allies to take a harder line on Russian expansionism.[21]



    Oh "we" aren't are we? (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:54:11 PM EST
    not in the next few years maybe..

    It depends on what Mexico and Canada do, doesn't it?


    That silly (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:55:36 PM EST
    Sorry.  It is.

    If you seriously (none / 0) (#60)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 04:59:57 PM EST
    expect to buy into the "this has nothing to do with NATO" narrative everyone's parroting in unison, talk to the hand, as they say.

    I didn't even know what that means (none / 0) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 05:05:28 PM EST
    It has everything to do with NATO.

    If Ukraine was a member it would not be happening.


    Surrounding Russia (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 05:16:14 PM EST
    with missiles leaves them with very few moves left other than to forge an alliance with our other adversary China.

    This is adversarial brinksmanship writ as large as you can write it.


    So then if we did not do that (none / 0) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 05:20:12 PM EST
    the US, Russia and China could be friends?

    Could we have sleepovers and braid each other's hair?  That would be great!


    For the record this makes absolutely no sense (none / 0) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 05:26:29 PM EST
    Ukraine gave up their "missiles".  And the had a f'ck ton of them.  It was part of them getting independence.

    They gave them up and got a pledge from the west to defend their territorial sovereignty

    So, really.  Why would anyone even want missiles?  We will protect them.


    F'ck ton (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 06:04:09 PM EST

    After the disintegration of the USSR, Ukraine found itself in possession of the world's third largest nuclear arsenal. There were 176 intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) launchers with some 1,240 warheads on Ukrainian territory.

    It is not my (none / 0) (#69)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 06:17:02 PM EST
    assertion that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has "nothing whatsoever" to do with Ukraine becoming a member of NATO. It was stated that it was not the prime reason--based on Putin's address to the Russians and Ukrainian Compatriots.  Putin's case was based on a fictitiously independent country and his revanchism. A return to the Czarist empire.

    Putin no doubt has disliked the idea of NATO since he was 8 years old, or at least since his KGB days, but annexation of Ukraine into Mother Russia will not cure his concern--his new border will have NATO members Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, and Romania.  More than at present.

    The purposes of NATO involved the attack one you have attacked all provision, ostensibly the Soviet Union, but, also sub Rosa, applicable to other Euro countries with a history of warring with each other. The fall of the Soviets gave a chance to rethink expansion, or even, as I suggested at the time, to work toward accession of the new Russian Federation into NATO.  Maybe not a good idea in retrospect,  but that was then and this is now.


    Since you called me out (none / 0) (#74)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 11:28:11 AM EST
    and referred to my comments as "stupid."

    There was nothing to suggest that Ukraine would become a member of NATO.  Years ago, there was some discussion of that, but it went nowhere.  A month ago, there was no serious effort to make them part of NATO.

    This NATO issue was a talking point of Putin and Lavrov, which you have lapped up.  But, now, they seemed to have abandoned that point because it is ridiculous.  They are now talking about Ukraine getting WMD.

    You seem remarkably unsupportive of the Ukrainians and especially their military defense of their country, and seem to be looking to hang the label of racist on someone at every turn.  It is because the Ukranians are white that we support them, seems to be your refrain.

    Even Tucker Carlson has dropped, it would appear, his anti-Ukraine bombast.  The alt-left apparently just can't grasp or admit what is going on here.

    Military force is sometimes needed.   But go Neville Chamberlain if you will--just give Putin what he wants because of well, NATO--but I think that is a mistake.

    So to your "stupid," I say "ridiculous."  


    Now you did it (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 12:05:01 PM EST
    Who did I ever call or imply was a racist? Cut the bullsh*t, counselor, you're better than that.

    All I'm trying to get across is that if you encourage or instill a siege mentality in a people like the Russians, with their recent history, the more psychologically inclined they will be to tolerate a thuggish autocrat like Putin and the more likely they will be tolerate his insane notions and schemes for bringing 'greatness', strength, and security back to the nation.

    I hope Putin has a Road to Damascus experience, but since that's not likely to happen, the next thing is for the Praetorian guard to get out the daggers as soon as possible.


    A rather fine (none / 0) (#80)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 12:44:51 PM EST
    academic point that you seem remarkably invested in.

    I am not sure I buy it.


    Hey, I'm not sure I even buy it (none / 0) (#82)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 12:54:53 PM EST
    I'm spit ballin' here, as Colonel Nathan R Jessup said.

    I think Dostoyevski and Berdyaev had some things to say about a nihilistic, self-destructive element in the Russian psychology, which are probably in play here.


    The bottom line issue (none / 0) (#83)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 12:55:04 PM EST
    is avoiding nuclear war.

    While we (the U.S. and NATO) will not militarily intervene directly in the Ukraine, that is not the case with the Baltics and Poland.  The concerns about Putin reacting against having an adverse military force on his borders, etc., apply much more to these countries than the Ukraine.

    We already have troops in the Baltics and Poland. And, make no mistake, if Putin attacks them, we will militarily respond.  And I am convinced the U.S. would respond to a Russian first strike with nuclear weapons.  Would Putin launch nukes if we were militarily routing him?

     We need to stop or at least significantly oppose Putin in the Ukraine.

    The good news, if there be such, is that Putin's military capabilities would have been degraded and exposed as inferior.  It appears that the U.S. and NATO could readily route the Russians in direct combat.  Would that deter Putin with respect to Poland?


    'Appeal to authority' 101 (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 01:35:03 PM EST
    George Kenan, who was a pretty hardliner, said, after end the of the S.U, that the expansion of NATO would be "a strategic blunder of epic proportions"; Moynihan said "we have no idea what we're getting into" and John Lewis Gaddis, the so-called dean of American Cold War historians said, "Historians, normally so contentious, are in uncharacteristic agreement, with remarkably few exceptions, that NATO enlargement is ill-conceived, ill-timed, and above all ill-suited to the realities of the post-Cold War world."

    The words of more appeasers, I suppose?


    Not (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by FlJoe on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:24:56 PM EST
    appeasers just neo-cons crowing about their cold war victory and the academics declaring the end of history.

    Russian fear is irrational and IMO just cover for empire building, NATO was created and maintained as a defensive alliance.

    Nobody but a psychopath would start a war in Europe and everyone knows it, the structure of NATO prevents that. The idea that NATO turned Putin into a power hungry psychopath is ludicrous.

    Putin has already shown brutal aggression in Georgia, Chechnya and is up to no good in Syria and other places. Not to mention his brutal up close and personal murders of his political opponents.


    Yes, (none / 0) (#101)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 03:28:09 PM EST
    although. George Kennan was the architect of post-war containment of the Soviet Union he had a great fondness for Russia.  His concern for NATO expansion centered on the damage it may do to US efforts to transform Russia from an enemy to a friend--- Kennan's position as stated in 1999 prior to Putin's regime.  And, of course, before the unfriendly course Putin has taken around the world. Events over the past 20 years are likely to have burst his bubble.

    Macon, too, needed some reality therapy when he claimed NATO to be "brain dead".  There was no reason for its existence, he claimed, since there was no longer the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact, hence, no enemy to defend against. It does not appear that he still sees it in the same way.

    NATO expansion is more a threat to Putin's imperial ambitions than to Russian sovereignty. And a threat to Putin's vision of the Russia it should be

    Kennan and the other cold warriors may well be concerned by the behaviors of a Russian leader who sits at the head of a ridiculously long table and his ministers clustered at the other end. Macron did report that Putin was different.  

    Small points,perhaps, but Kennan would likely appreciate the observations being a leading Kremlin watcher, from which many inferences were drawn.   It is not difficult to draw inferences from his invasion of Ukraine, or from his efforts to destroy democracy in the US and his efforts to install TFG and to fund the Republicans.


    Maybe you can explain (none / 0) (#127)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 05:41:42 PM EST
    to me how Russia, with a GNP of the state of Texas, finance a revival of the Russian Empire? If China bankrolled them? Given the irreversible devastating economic and material consequences and the fact that the Russian people aren't the faceless, order-taking automatons some would like to make them out to be, this whole Imperial revival threat amounts to myth-spinning and demagogic smoke-blowing on Putin's part and hysteria-mongering on the NATO-U.S-defense contractor's parts.

    As to faceless automatons, (none / 0) (#141)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:17:03 PM EST
    interviews with many Russians show little sympathy for the Ukrainians and that they believe Putin's propaganda.

    I do not think anyone here believes the Russians as a people are inhuman monsters.  But they do not appear willing or able to stop Putin.  The protestors are a minor exception that Putin will dispose of.

    The German people did not stop Hitler, although some tried.

    I will say that it is tempting to use NATO and U.S. forces to help Ukraine.  Especially as the Russian army appears very vulnerable.   We could clean up the battlefield in short order.  Cruise Missiles and drones would take care of that long supply train stuck outside of Kyiv.

    And, there is not really that much difference between protecting Poland militarily, which we would clearly do, and doing so for Ukraine.

    Clear-headed thinking, however, requires us to sit this one out.  And we will have the Ukraine cities and people ground into dust.  And some want to understand how put upon the Russians are.

    "Understanding" Putin may have been worth the effort prior to the invasion in an effort to stop it. But now it does not matter.  He is taking the entire country.  Comments again that the Ukraine is really part of Russian.  Macron after talking to Putin says Putin intends to take the whole country.

    "Understanding" Putin.  That ship sailed long ago.      


    Wow. Their fear is irrational (none / 0) (#125)
    by jondee on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 03:32:56 PM EST
    and that's it. All there is to it. End of story.

    Sure, they lost tens-of-millions of people and starving children had to eat the corpses of their own grandmothers after the Nazi invasion, but that was a long time ago. They should all sign-up for a Tony Robbins seminar and learn how to get over it, the way we do here in America.


    Oh (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by FlJoe on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 06:54:27 PM EST
    I see he fears another Hitler so he decides to become one himself first...sounds rational to me.

    And the Ukrainians are what? (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 06:57:39 PM EST
    Collateral damage?

    There were umpteen warnings (none / 0) (#132)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:17:01 AM EST
    that something like this would happen.

    I am impressed though at the number of folks here who've mastered the finer points of foreign policy -as a hobby, no less- to a degree that Kennan, Brzezinski, Kissinger, Biden's CIA Director, Chomsky etc could only dream of.


    Not that it matters (none / 0) (#133)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:55:17 AM EST
    one iota, but here's another one, former U.S Ambassador to the S.U, Jack Matlock in 1997 -

    "I consider the administration's recommendation to take new members into NATO at this time misguided. If it should be approved by the United States Senate it may well go down in history as the most profound strategic blunder since the end of the Cold War. Far from improving the security of the United States, it's Allies, and the nations that wish to enter the Alliance, it could well encourage a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat to this nation since the Soviet Union collapsed."


    WTF (none / 0) (#134)
    by FlJoe on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 08:37:44 AM EST
    happened to you? You used to hate the fascist bastards now you are defending a brutal war criminal.

    Has your account been hacked or did you get a hold of some bad acid?


    Not a fair criticism of JonDee's comments (none / 0) (#135)
    by Peter G on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 09:55:53 AM EST
    Opposing (or even questioning) militarism more broadly is not remotely the same as "defending a brutal war criminal." This is a perfect example of the damage that being on a war footing -- at least psychologically -- does to folks' normal discourse and thinking processes.

    I (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by FlJoe on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 10:55:59 AM EST
    read his comments as full out apologia for Putin's action.

    We can certainly agree that the world is over militarized and we all know that the foreign policy gurus are probably wrong more often than right but absolutely nothing done by NATO excuses Putin's action.


    I read (and continue to read) JonDee's comments (none / 0) (#138)
    by Peter G on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 11:38:36 AM EST
    as seeking to understand Putin's thinking and thus his actions. I would also like to understand better what he could be thinking. I do not consider that to be taking his side or making apologies for his unjustifiable aggression and evident war crimes.

    In part (none / 0) (#139)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 12:59:17 PM EST
    but many of those comments--in this thread--pretty clearly state that Russia is not the threat that most of us see.

    That is not about "Putin's thinking."  

    I see parallels to Munich in 1938.  There is a rationale for defending that agreement too.  Most disagree.


    Correct me if I'm wrong (none / 0) (#143)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:20:40 PM EST
    but 1938 was before the invention of nuclear weapons.

    Lets not go back to 1938, how about after 9/11, when public debate and dissent was being shouted-down with the same accusations of "appeasement", Neville Chamberlain etc etc.


    Okay, (none / 0) (#145)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:28:32 PM EST
    I do think that is a valid point.

    In the nuclear era, appeasement may be a good idea, appears to be your real argument.  

    Maybe.  But I do not believe it works.

    And sometimes the "appeasement" shoe fits.  



    Yeah ok (none / 0) (#148)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:47:00 PM EST
    How about we try on the words 'compromise' and 'good faith negotiations' for size?

    What's the alternative?

    You think the U.S isn't operating from enough of a position of strength or something? What's the U.S military budget compared to the Russians?


    "Compromise" (none / 0) (#151)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:52:56 PM EST
    is possible with Putin?  

    You see a different world than I do.  I see him committing War Crimes and the crime of Waging an Aggressive War.  You see a devotee of Tolstoy.


    I don't see Putin (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 03:07:40 PM EST
    as a devotee of Tolstoy. I wish he was.

    We could use a few in this country as well.

    And few less full of blustery Texas false pride and bullsh*t.


    I still loathe (none / 0) (#140)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:06:06 PM EST
    fascist bastards, but the way to deal with them isn't to back them into a corner and poke them with a sharp stick over and over again. Especially when they have 10,000 nuclear warheads at their disposal.

    I might like to do that to Tucker, but he doesn't have nuclear armaments.

    It's also worth keeping in mind, that the vast majority  Russian people are just flesh-and-blood human beings struggling to make it through this life, the same as we are. Let America produce a few Tolstoys and Stravinskys before we start getting so damn cocky about our vast moral superiority and righteousness.


    Good lord (none / 0) (#144)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:23:20 PM EST
    I don't see the U.S. invading Ukraine.

    Russia having Tolstoy and Stravinskys is somehow relevant?

    Pre-WWII Germany had Goethe and Kant. So what?

    And your love of Russian literature gives our folks short shrift.  None of our artists or writers can hold a candle to them?



    You have more faith (none / 0) (#146)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:38:56 PM EST
    in the self-deluding machinations of the military industrial complex than I do. Obviously.

    It is a great question though, how Germany went from Kant, Goethe, Schiller, JS Bach etc to Hitler. Bertrand Russell blamed it all on Lord Byron and Rousseau, who weren't even German.


    Quite a mouthful (none / 0) (#149)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:47:25 PM EST
    of standard cant. "Self-delusion" and "military industrial complex," etc.  Followed by the quite convincing "obviously."

    Look, pacifists and supporters of appeasement have an argument.  Just not a very good one, imo.

    Cities are being ground into dust and you bring up your admiration of Tolstoy.  Huh?  Tolstoy is irrelevant.

    A history of enlightened literature is irrelevant.

    You basically have quite a lot of sympathy for the Russian position.  They are just scared in the aftermath of WWII.  Not convincing.  


    Yeah I get (1.00 / 1) (#154)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 02:07:50 PM EST
    everything irrelevant to you is unquestionably irrelevant to everyone.

    How Putin-like of you.

    I'm done giving a sh*t about trying to convince you anything.

    If the concepts of compromise and negotiation are that unfathomable to you, strap on a weapon and over there to 5he Ukraine.


    Again, over the line (1.00 / 1) (#158)
    by MKS on Sat Mar 05, 2022 at 10:35:52 AM EST
    with personal insults.....

    You fixate on the one (none / 0) (#164)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 05, 2022 at 11:15:18 PM EST
    ancillary comment you can latch onto and blow out of proportion, like some ambulance chaser just looking to stick-it to someone.

    The main salient point, reiterated several times, is the issue of Nato expansion and the existential threat that poses to the Russians.

    And don't be so thin-skinned.


    I'm trying to remember (5.00 / 3) (#165)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun Mar 06, 2022 at 01:11:50 AM EST
    the last time 30 or so staunchly independent, divergent, selfish, ostensibly democratic nations, all independently made the thousands of votes necessary to all gang up together to direct a lethal threat to a dictatorship that was not already the overwhelming aggressor upon a peaceful and significantly weaker nation.

    Sent from my home pc. Hopefully no duplicate posts...


    All your authorities are irrelvent (none / 0) (#147)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:41:20 PM EST
    Who is currently a member of NATO is a done deal.

    Do you want to kick out Poland and the other newer members?  Turn the clock back now to assuage Putin?


    Irrelevant (1.00 / 1) (#153)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:56:00 PM EST
    but you evoke 1938 when it suits you.

    And General LeMay level bs about appeasers and fellow travelers.

    How about this? I don't know what the answer is, it's above my pay grade, as they say.

    You're the one with all the answers. And thank God you're here.


    Bad arguments (1.00 / 1) (#159)
    by MKS on Sat Mar 05, 2022 at 10:38:16 AM EST
    but in the ball park until the last sentence.

    You're are losing it, jondee.  


    Russia has long been paranoid ... (none / 0) (#166)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 01:34:15 AM EST
    ... about the West and with good reason, having suffered three major invasions since 1812 that resulted in an enormous loss of life. (The Second World War alone reduced the USSR's population by 14% or 27 million people.)

    NATO expansion was a controversial subject in the wake of the USSR's collapse and breakup in 1991. That said, I think it's a stretch to draw a direct line between that 25-year-old foreign policy debate and Russia's current invasion of Ukraine.

    Further and conversely, eastern Europe is certainly no stranger to Russian territorial designs and expansion, a historical phenomenon that long predates present events and in fact harkens back to 1700 and Czar Peter I's (aka Peter the Great) unprovoked attack on Sweden, then a major European power that at the time was ruled by an 18-year-old King Charles XII. (That's how St. Petersburg eventually came into being, founded on lands culled from Swedish-ruled Finland.)

    Peter I's aggression prompted a ferocious military response from young Charles XII and the Swedes that clearly surprised the Czar and his generals, utterly destroyed the invading Russian army at the Battle of Narva and touched off the 21-year-long Great Northern War between the two countries.

    At one precarious point in the conflict (1707-09), Peter I came dangerously close to losing his throne, empire and even his life when Charles XII impetuously undertook an ill-advised major invasion of Russia. The Swedish army drove from Poland toward Moscow before turning south to conquer Ukraine, where it was defeated decisively by a much larger Russian force at the Battle of Poltava near Kyiv in July 1709.

    Suffice to say that both Russia and its neighboring European states have long given one another sufficient reasons to be wary of the other's intentions.



    I do not see (none / 0) (#142)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:18:47 PM EST
    a lot of concern by Putin for starving children in the Ukraine.

    You really think Putin gives a rat's as* about children or civilians?


    Oh but (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by KeysDan on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:48:02 PM EST
    Ukraine made Putin do it. Ukraine was asking for it what with their desire for a better lot in life by aspiring to be a member of the European Union and to think about NATO for defensive security from Putin's wandering eye.  And, NATO was the enabler of this tragedy, not seeing that the Russian people are nice and took the brunt of casualties in World War II.  Besides, there is the military industrial complex at play that President Eisenhower warned about.  

    The invasion is sort of diabolus ex machina.  Hopefully, I have these argument down correctly so as incorporate new thinking. Can't be pig-headed in the face of new facts and cogent arguments.


    Hmm, good summation (none / 0) (#152)
    by MKS on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 01:54:22 PM EST
    But your forgot to add in Tolstoy. Somehow.  

    Trying to shame someone (1.00 / 1) (#155)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 02:23:26 PM EST
    for mentioning Tolstoy.

    I'd hate to see you after a couple of drinks. That neck could probably function as a stop light.


    Over the line jondee (none / 0) (#157)
    by MKS on Sat Mar 05, 2022 at 10:33:50 AM EST
    Clearly a personal insult.

    You are losing it for being called out for your Russian apologetics.


    Yeah the contemplation (none / 0) (#162)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 05, 2022 at 11:46:53 AM EST
    of the possibility of WWIII tends to put me a little on edge.

    Not a good time to aim snarks at me.


    The context of yourTolstoy (none / 0) (#161)
    by MKS on Sat Mar 05, 2022 at 11:00:45 AM EST

    We here in America do not have the moral standing to draw judgments about the Ukraine or military support to the Urkaine because we do not have Tolstoy, and would need more than one Tolstoy before we would have such standing.

    So, you imply that U.S. culture is inferior to Russian culture because we do not have Tolstoy.  And apparently that Russian culture has a superior claim to morality because they have Tolstoy.

    Throw in Soviet loses in WWII, and we really should be more sympathetic to Putin.

    That is your argument--when you actually make it clearly.  It is a bad argument in my view.

    It is not about shaming you for liking Tolstoy--but commenting on how you cite him.


    Thanks for clarifying my thoughts (none / 0) (#163)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 05, 2022 at 12:06:10 PM EST
    for me. You continue to render an invaluable service to our little community here.

    Let not your heart be troubled. I'm one person with my own idiosyncratic point of view, and the last time I looked this is still a democracy - in theory at least.


    To bad mist of those guys are dead (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 01:38:08 PM EST
    it would be fun to know if they still agree with Donald Trump.

    It's possible Trump could accidentally (none / 0) (#88)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 01:52:37 PM EST
    be right about something, albeit for the wrong reasons.

    I don't envision any of those people quoted ever being Trump supporters.


    So, to be clear (none / 0) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 01:57:18 PM EST
    YOU think Trump was right to try to destroy NATO?

    Destroy NATO? (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:05:33 PM EST
    It's not exactly a new idea. I believe Macron publicly discussed it before Trump.

    To be clear, do you want to destroy the planet by pushing adversarial brinksmanship to the limit with paranoid, nuclear-armed countries?


    What bullshite (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:08:37 PM EST
    Trump wanted to destroy NATO.  That's not really a secret.

    Own it.


    You, Tucker Trump (none / 0) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:12:11 PM EST
    I know it's your site (none / 0) (#94)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:17:15 PM EST
    at this point, but you're not gonna shout me down, short of bombarding J with emails, which I wouldn't put past you.

    You're going to have (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:14:05 PM EST
    to be more specific. What part is bullshite? Trump said it, therefore it's bullshite?

    I just told you Macron and others have said virtually the same thing.

    Chomsky, who you probably think is worse than Trump, which I can't help you with, has also been talking about it for decades.


    Oh gosh (none / 0) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:18:04 PM EST
    You've sure got me there.

    You know what?  This is a stupid conversation.  And I'm bored with it.  I get enough silly Green Party BS in my life

    Feel free to have the last word.


    Om mani padme hum (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:25:46 PM EST
    I think you mean Trump is right (none / 0) (#109)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:27:54 PM EST
    that NATO should be disbanded.....It would be easier if you would clearly state your position.

    I suppose disbanding NATO would let us off the hook of defending Europe--at least seemingly and temporarily.

    But I think we have learned that aggression in Europe needs to be opposed and stopped.  Theory and ideology and rhetoric is one thing, but hard-earned experience is another.

    And too late. We are already committed.  So, a Putin incursion into Poland will have U.S. air power and boots on the ground making a mess of Putin's troops.

    That is the lay of the land.  We need to deal with it.


    Right? (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:38:43 PM EST
    You would think that whatever the thinking was 7 days ago about the importance of NATO, it seems pretty f'ing obvious today.

    Appeal to authority? (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:22:23 PM EST
    Huh?  I am not following about half of your posts.  I can't tell if you are being deliberately oblique.....

    I sense (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by KeysDan on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:33:05 PM EST
    our colleague is a little out of sorts .  In such cases it is well to take deep breaths, hold for 10 seconds, and exhale slowly.  It does wonders.

    Yeah we'll all get together (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 05:37:22 PM EST
    order a pizza and binge-watch Brittania.

    The ideal at one time was marginalizing and sidelining the MIC scum, deescalation, and the avoidance of WW III, not the continuence of realpolitik back-and-forth provocations.

    Ok (none / 0) (#67)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 05:49:16 PM EST
    Explain why the very existence of a free western democracy, that had no freaking missiles, was a

    realpolitik back-and-forth provocations.

    I don't get that part.  You talk about surrounding Russia with missiles.  Once again, no missiles.


    They stated unequivocally (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 06:49:44 PM EST
    in 2014 that they viewed the integration of the Ukraine into NATO an unacceptable existential threat. Literal missiles are beside the point, as some pretext can always be found for placing them there later.

    It's all about perception from the Russian standpoint colored by Russian history, and super power's need to maintain some spheres of influence.

    This nonsense about Putin wanting to reconstitute the Russian Empire is pure propaganda. Russia has no economy to sustain a project like that.


    It has been stated repeatedly (none / 0) (#71)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 07:02:01 PM EST
    NATO is not in Ukraine's future.  There is a problem with admitting any country that has territorial disputes.  They have one.  It not likely to go away.  Certainly as long as Putin is alive.

    That's doesn't mean Putin gets to say, or more importantly get any guarantee from NATO, that they can never join.  Really not his call.

    What is propaganda is this worry is why Putin is doing this.  He's doing it because he thinks he can.  The person talking about renewing the empire is Putin.


    WHat I find (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 01, 2022 at 07:36:11 PM EST
    interesting is Putin sounds like George W. Bush with his BS reasons for attacking Ukraine like Ukraine is a threat and if Russia doesn't attack Ukraine they are going to attack Russia. I have seen no interest from Ukraine about attacking Russia. It would be stupid. Putin sure didn't seem concerned about any of this when his puppet was running the country. Everyone should remember that Putin has been messing in the Ukraine for quite a while. This is just his first attempt at full on conquer and attack.

    2014? (none / 0) (#75)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 11:31:46 AM EST
    You said it.

    Eight years ago. So an invasion now is appropriate?

    And, just tell us what your approach would have been?  I can only guess some sort of appeasement.


    Formal assurances (none / 0) (#79)
    by jondee on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 12:22:05 PM EST
    of the Ukraine's permanent neutrality might have been the way to go.

    Invading Ukraine isn't appropriate, but it's understandable in the sense of paranoid autocrat's last throw of the dice - or possibly Putin's misguided attempt to make Biden look weak so numbnuts can get back in office in 2024, to sow more chaos and division in the U.S.


    Atlantic (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 07:47:31 AM EST

    And those are just the obvious, first-order effects. Bradley Jardine, a global fellow at the Wilson Center, a nonpartisan research organization, writes that Tajikistan, a small Central Asian country north of Afghanistan, relies on remittances from Russia for more than 20 percent of its GDP. That means if workers in Russia stop sending money to their families in Tajikistan, that country's economy could nose-dive into a depression. Economic crises can spark political revolutions, and Tajikistan shares a border with China's westernmost province, Xinjiang. Russia's crisis could, then, become a Central Asian economic crisis, which could become a Chinese political problem. What happens in Russia will not stay in Russia.


    Interesting (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 01:50:48 PM EST

    An expert on Russian military strategy has 5 conclusions about Putin's goals as his war begins

    The first is that it has nothing to do with Ukraine.

    "Ukraine is from his perspective the most painful symptom of what's bothering him," said Adamsky. "He is out to overhaul the rules of the international game that were formed at the end of the Cold War, contrary to Russia's will."

    His second point is that what's now happening is "unfolding according to two central notions in Russian strategic thinking - levels of escalation and multidimensional coercion (or deterrence)."

    The Putin plan will be military and non-military. Soft power and hard. Cyber attacks and traditional ground war.

    "The third conclusion is that the Russian army isn't what it used to be,"

    His fourth conclusion is that Putin clearly sees the two major Russian failures being the German invasion in 1941 and the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. Putin thinks that the lesson there is to act militarily not to appease.

    His final conclusion goes to questions of how to end the war from Russia's point of view. Putin has mentioned nuclear weapons twice, though most don't believe he'd ever actually use them. When asked whether Americans should fear a nuclear war, President Joe Biden said frankly, "no."

    But as Adamsky explained Putin "can't end with a whimper" because he's trying to show his strength on the world stage.

    I don't (none / 0) (#96)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:22:29 PM EST
    believe that Putin won't use nukes. I can totally see him using them to go out with a bang instead of a whimper.

    One thing I wondered is maybe Putin wants the Ukraine for food as I remember Ukraine used to be the breadbasket and dairy supplier for a large percentage of the Soviet Union's food. And wanting the Ukraine for food would also coincide with restoring the Soviet Union.


    After the show (none / 0) (#99)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:48:20 PM EST

    China Asked Russia to Delay Invasion Until After Olympics
    March 2, 2022 at 3:41 pm EST By Taegan Goddard 81 Comments

    "A Western intelligence report said senior Chinese officials told senior Russian officials in early February not to invade Ukraine before the end of the Winter Olympics in Beijing," the New York Times reports.

    "The report indicates that senior Chinese officials had some level of knowledge about Russia's war plans or intentions before the invasion started last week."

    It's (none / 0) (#100)
    by FlJoe on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 02:55:58 PM EST
    all show business now. And like duh, the entire world knew his plans for months.

    I hope it bites him in the ass and the spring thaw starts swallowing up his armor.


    They did (none / 0) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 03:53:08 PM EST
    US Intel sure did.  They said from the start he's going to do it.

    But so many, I'm raising my hand, doubted Putin would really do it.  Even in Ukraine it seems they might have been better prepared but the government kept publicly disagreeing with the US.  

    Weird.  You wonder if one of the reason the US was so sure is because China told them.  I wonder if they would tell the Ukrainians the Chinese told  them?  


    Personally (none / 0) (#111)
    by FlJoe on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:31:24 PM EST
    I think we have deep sources in the Kremlin and I think we have hacked some of their systems or at least successfully blocked their outgoing attacks.

    Their advance on Kyiv has been an absolute clusterfk, almost like it's leaderless.


    Personally I'm praying we have a deep (none / 0) (#114)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 04:44:18 PM EST
    Something in the Kremlin. When Putin realizes he really is done for...

    Seriously (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 05:04:08 PM EST
    I hope someone takes him out before he presses the button.

    I (none / 0) (#116)
    by FlJoe on Wed Mar 02, 2022 at 05:34:49 PM EST
    would hope that the generals would deny him, I get this feeling that the military is not real happy with the whole invasion idea anyway.

    That happened to Khrushchev in 1964, ... (none / 0) (#168)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 02:27:11 AM EST
    ... with the obvious difference between then and now being that there's presently no Supreme Soviet Presidium and Communist Party State Central Committee sitting in the Kremlin to formally rebuke Comrade Putin for his international recklessness and compel his retirement from public life "for health reasons" to some Russian dacha.

    No, I'm afraid the best we can probably hope right now is an official news bulletin solemnly announcing that President Putin has accidentally fallen off a 15th floor balcony of one of his Moscow condominiums.



    Pretty smart (none / 0) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 03, 2022 at 01:03:23 PM EST

    Photos of Captured Russians Added to Google Maps
    March 3, 2022 at 2:15 pm EST By Taegan Goddard 32 Comments

    "Google Maps users are uploading dozens of photos of destruction, injured civilians, and captured Russian soldiers in Ukraine to the Google Maps listings of popular locations within Russia's major cities," Vice News reports.

    "Russian president Vladimir Putin has blocked or limited access to foreign news coverage of the war in Ukraine, including Facebook and Twitter, some of the few places people within Russia that citizens could get non-state sanctioned news. Google Maps allows users to upload photos of places--usually as part of a review of the spot--but people are using this feature to get images from Ukraine into Russia."

    Washington Post: "A besieged Ukraine has adopted a gruesome tactic in hopes of stoking anti-government rage inside Russia: posting photos and videos of captured and killed Russian soldiers on the Web for anyone to see."

    Photos of POW's (none / 0) (#136)
    by BGinCA on Fri Mar 04, 2022 at 10:39:32 AM EST
    That said, I obviously can't speak for anyone else here, but will only note on my own behalf that you're not likely to get any sympathy for that argument from me.

    I suggest that you seriously think twice before trying to shame / blame the victims of an unprovoked and long-premeditated attack for showing off captured Russian invaders to the world. Because as far as war crimes go, this one appears to be fairly benign.



    It's not not brilliant and working (none / 0) (#169)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 07:09:03 AM EST
    But many of the prisoners seem to have no problem with the process according to reports.  And they get to call their moms.

    The just said the war (none / 0) (#170)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 07:10:18 AM EST
    is costing Russia 30 billion a day.

    With a B.

    Who is "they"? (none / 0) (#171)
    by leap2 on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 09:06:40 AM EST

    Some generals on MSNBC (none / 0) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 09:10:45 AM EST
    Sorry, they are all starting to look the same.

    Sounds (none / 0) (#173)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 09:38:40 AM EST
    way high to me.

    It does. (none / 0) (#174)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 10:42:15 AM EST
    I just reporting.  It is a massive force.  Maybe it "should" cost that much and they are spending less which is why they are running out if gas and surrendering.

    He actually said (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 11:21:40 AM EST
    ...with a B

    Very predicable underappreciated effect of this (none / 0) (#175)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 11:20:41 AM EST
    we need nukes.  

    "Deterrence is no longer enough, and we need more defense. Because otherwise, it will be too late here... Putin will not stop in Ukraine; he will not stop."

    -- Lithuanian President Gitanas Nauseda, quoted by the Washington Post.

    Why don't they (none / 0) (#177)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 02:31:35 PM EST
    bring the Ukrainian pilots to the jets?  Would'nt that be easier?

    Poland to Give MIG-29 Fighter Jets to U.S.
    March 8, 2022 at 2:37 pm EST By Taegan Goddard 238 Comments

    Poland's government announced that it will hand over all its MIG-29 fighter jets to a U.S. air base in Germany, the AP reports.

    In return, Poland asked the U.S. "to provide us with used aircraft with corresponding operational capabilities."

    It's still not clear how the jets get into Ukrainian hands


    "They're our fighters and we are transferring them, but through the U.S. and through U.S. infrastructure," he said. "We wanted the certainty that in six months or two years everyone will be comfortable that this was a NATO idea, a Western idea," he said.

    In a statement Tuesday, the Polish government requests "other NATO Allies --owners of MIG-29 jets--to act in the same vein."

    The Polish diplomat said earlier Tuesday that "there is a lot of will" in Poland to help Ukraine fight the Russians.

    "But there has to be a consensus over it in the Western community," he added. "We can act on behalf of NATO, but we need support in doing so. And not every Western country feels safe or comfortable with that. What we would really like to avoid is providing jets to Ukraine and then being left alone because it was `our call.'"

    I understand (none / 0) (#179)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 03:09:05 PM EST
    but they keep talking about getting the planes to the Ukrainians.  Why not bring the Ukrainians, easier to get across the border you would think, to the planes.

    And let them return with the planes.


    They are giving them MIGs (none / 0) (#180)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 03:10:45 PM EST
    because that's what Ukrainian pilots know how to fly.  Right?

    Correct. (none / 0) (#181)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 03:27:21 PM EST
    At least that was my understanding of the swap.

    Dunno. (none / 0) (#182)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 03:37:26 PM EST
    Maybe Poland believes that would make them more directly responsible for the transfer and the "West" less responsible?

    Happening (none / 0) (#183)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 05:06:14 PM EST

    'Surprise move': U.S. stunned by Poland's fighter jet offer
    The announcement came after a week of back-and-forth negotiations about a transfer of fighters to Ukraine.

    Poland offered to send all of its Russian-made MiG-29 fighter jets "immediately and free of charge" to the U.S. air base in Ramstein, Germany.

    or is it (none / 0) (#184)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 05:27:49 PM EST
    Pentagon says Polish proposal to transfer jets to US to give to Ukraine isn't `tenable'

    Hard to understand (none / 0) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 06:27:43 PM EST
    how can they be "caught off guard" when this has been discussed for days.



    I (none / 0) (#186)
    by FlJoe on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 06:59:47 PM EST
    keep thinking there must be some kind of kabuki going on, this whole thing has been convoluted and constantly in public view for days. Yeah pretty weird for professional diplomats during wartime.  

    Yes, (none / 0) (#188)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 09:38:26 PM EST
    sounds like cover for a covert operation.

    Was watching MSNBC this morning (none / 0) (#189)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 09:07:16 AM EST
    and they had a woman from The Atlantic Council on who said the Pentagon's announcement is "nonsense." She said these jets could be moved from Poland to Ukraine in "an hour." I liked everything she had to say. Ukraine needs this fire and air power. No excuses. Eff Russia.

    I think that might have been (none / 0) (#190)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 10:51:04 AM EST
    Victoria Nuland.  See previous conversation about her.

    They bombed a children's hospital and maternity ward last night.


    What (none / 0) (#191)
    by FlJoe on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 11:42:38 AM EST
    the hell is going on? Are the Russians just trying to be as evil as possible? The damage at that hospital was horrific, way more than a stray shell or rocket or two.

    I'm getting tired of hearing how (5.00 / 2) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 12:03:48 PM EST
    the poor Russian people are being "fooled" by Putin and they just have no idea what's really happening.  

    I call BS.  I think it's the same as it was here with Trump and the Firehouse of Bullshite.  Anyone who want to know the truth does.  As it was here a big number say they don't know what's happening when the truth is the approve of what he is doing.

    I have nothing but awe and respect for the Russians who are facing 15 years in prison and keep going into the street.

    What are these poor confused people think is happening there?  These Russians are facing prison because they DO NOT want Ukraine "de-nazified"

    I call BS. This needs to be seen for what it is.  A totalitarian who has way more support than they are going to want to admit if we ever get to the otherside of this.  

    Good Germans, good Russians.


    If this video is accurate (none / 0) (#193)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 12:33:37 PM EST
    Crazy (none / 0) (#194)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 01:06:02 PM EST
    I understand why a person might lie in that situation.  

    But Putin and Trump are on the same page (surprise) by giving people all the excuses and talking points they need.

    We did not know he was bombing children's hospitals.  And even if we did we would not believe it.

    Way to close to Trump world


    Two US Navy SSBNs (none / 0) (#199)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 04:13:57 PM EST
    have a higher capacity than 36. Do people really believe stuff like that? I'm sure the numbers are in the hundreds (if not more).

    I am constantly amazed at how ignorant (none / 0) (#200)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 04:30:32 PM EST
    some people remain, now, more than 50 years into the information age.

    Terrible (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by BGinCA on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 02:19:31 PM EST
    but all war is horrific. I didn't see any attempt to overthrow the criminal bush regime after the US lied its way into an unprovoked war in Iraq. or after we massacred civilians in Afghanistan.
    "a trauma hospital run by Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) in Kunduz, Afghanistan, was hit by repeated United States air strikes, killing 42 people."

    As Izzy Stone taught us 'all governments lie'.
    Russia, of course, is more culpable of war crimes than the US, but I can't work myself into a frenzy based on information promulgated by the US government and media. Most of what we are fed by talking head 'military experts', with ties to the military industrial complex (yes!)should be recognized as propaganda.


    These planes (none / 0) (#187)
    by KeysDan on Tue Mar 08, 2022 at 09:16:47 PM EST
    are designed to land on, and take-off from highways.  I wonder if NATO could fly the planes to near the Ukraine border, tow them across the border, for delivery to Ukraine pilots?

    They just addressed this point (none / 0) (#196)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 02:44:36 PM EST
    on MSNBC.  Or made a halfazzed attempt.

    It went like this, 'there have been questions like why not send the Ukrainian pilots to the planes and let them fly them into the country...the problem, the reporter said, is that would be dangerous.  They could be shot down'.

    Oh, wow.  I bet that had never occurred to the people offering to do it.

    What crap.  I don't know what the real issue us.  Possibly fear of provocation but that's BS.


    The US rejection of the Polish jets... (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by desertswine on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 03:39:11 PM EST
    shows me that the US believes that its interest lies in dragging this war out as long as possible.  In the way that Afghanistan helped lead to the demise of the USSR, this may lead to the overthrow of the Putin regime may be what they're playing for.

    It's (none / 0) (#197)
    by FlJoe on Wed Mar 09, 2022 at 03:02:36 PM EST
    pretty much as I thought, they aren't even flying the jets they have, adding the jets now wouldn't change the calculus one bit. I would file this as a nice gesture but not worth the effort.