Monday Open Thread: If Impeachment Won't Work

My view: Skip the impeachment trial and go right to federal and state charges that are distinct enough to pass the Blockburger test so there is no double jeopardy defense.

If you lost a loved one due to corona virus, sue Trump (like the parents of the young trader who committed suicide are suing RobinHood. But for his intentional malfeasance, we would not have had many deaths from coronavirus.

Get a federal or state seizure warrant to freeze or seize all the money in Jared's pass-through company American Made Media Company through which more than a billion in contributions came and went (See the FEC filing).

Charge him with RICO alleging an "enterprise in fact" with
his family which extends the statute of limitations for predicate acts of racketeering to 10 years.

Re-read Lewis Carrol's Alice in Wonderland: "No, No, said the Queen. First the punishment, then the verdict."


Cripple him with legal fees at every turn and tie up his assets as bond collateral. Think Madoff.

There are no more "dream teams". Big firms don't want him and the extent of the unraveling all his shenanigans that needs to be done is too much for a couple of sole practitioners. Who needs impeachment when there are so many other fertile areas to snag him.

And when he pulls a sealed pardon for himself out of his pocket, laugh and tell him it's unconstitutional because he's already out of office and no longer a sitting president. He had to disclose it while in office to be valid.

Of course this is all s/nark but we needed something to start off a new open thread. All topics welcome, especially the the Superspreader Superbowl.

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    Headline (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Feb 11, 2021 at 05:59:53 PM EST

    of the day

    When I grow up I want to be identified as a "polyamorous tantric s€x guru"

    I saw that (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Feb 11, 2021 at 06:48:16 PM EST
    and I laughed.

    I (none / 0) (#34)
    by FlJoe on Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 10:41:00 AM EST
    didn't know that Lin Wood was her attorney, although it makes perfect sense.

    The Daily Mail (none / 0) (#32)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 09:42:03 AM EST
    Then it has to be true.

    FrankenHawley (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 10:19:18 AM EST
    Missourians should heed Danforth's warning. FrankenHawley is on the loose

    Scathing is not a strong enough word for this op-ed out of St Louis.

    How does it make Danforth feel, knowing that he helped create this monster? "I feel I guess a little like Dr. Frankenstein must've felt, a part of creating something that was really wrong."

    Great (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2021 at 04:39:53 PM EST
    Arkansas Lt. Gov. Tim Griffin (R) announced  that he is departing the governor's race to run for attorney general, the Arkansas Democrat Gazette reports.

    "Griffin's announcement about his decision to change what office he is seeking in the Republican primary in 2022 comes two weeks after Sarah Huckabee Sanders (R), a former press secretary for the Trump administration, announced her own bid for governor in a campaign video. Former President Donald Trump endorsed Sanders."

    Remember those "real life UFO" (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2021 at 05:40:53 PM EST
    Why Bother With Impeachment? (none / 0) (#3)
    by RickyJim on Mon Feb 08, 2021 at 06:49:26 PM EST
    Somebody help me out with what federal crimes correspond to the current article of impeachment.  Thanks in advance.

    I can give you a reason to bother (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2021 at 07:11:50 PM EST
    Lots of people as a result of the coverage of the riot have been seeing what they have been supporting and recoiling.

    There are lots of people, Trump supporters, who are not bad people.  They don't follow politics.  They rarely see anything we would call news.  They get whatever info they get from Facebook or from their friends.  Many of these people genuinely had no idea how crazy some of the stuff they have been voting to support really is.  They have been learning.

    Lots of people are going to see this trial in the senate.  Lots of people who rarely see real news.   I keep hearing how shocking the House managers presentation will be.  It will be most shocking to that 5-10% I described above.

    It's important they see and hear it.  

    This is not about convicting Trump. In fact getting senate republicans to once again it's to  ignore the truth might be the most important thing.  

    There are all kinds of reason to have this trial regardless of the verdict.


    Doris Kearns Goodwin (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Feb 08, 2021 at 07:36:50 PM EST
    Just agreed with me on CNN

    According to (none / 0) (#7)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Feb 08, 2021 at 07:53:20 PM EST
    Roohnson (Q-WI), it's all Nancy's doing

    No Offense... (none / 0) (#21)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 02:03:23 PM EST
    ...but holding an impeachment to educate people about the world around them who mostly prefer to not be, isn't really cutting it as far as valid reason to Impeach a former President.

    Impeachment is to hold a government officials accountable for their misdeeds that may or may not be criminal..  T

    If they have a greater ability to gather sensitive evidence, it would make sense to have the Impeachment after the person has left office and use that evidence in a criminal trial.  Otherwise there is nothing that can be accomplished that cannot be accomplished better in a real trial, with real jurors, and real penalties.

    For the general disinterested public you mentioned above, isn't an Impeachment going to always seem politically driven?  I don't know, but the idea that people who don't watch news will turn into an Impeachment seems like a guess... and why would these same people not tune into a criminal trial of a former President?  

    In any case, both would educate, but that should not be a factor in deciding if someone should be Impeached/prosecuted.


    No (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by FlJoe on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 02:34:41 PM EST
    offense, but you are being incredibly dense, impeachment and prosecution are two entirely different beasts and anybody commenting  on this blog should know this.

    This impeachment is here and now while the insurrection is still fresh in the minds of the American psyche while any potential prosecution is months if not years in the future.


    God Help us All... (none / 0) (#25)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 05:26:47 PM EST
    ...if they drag this out into the 2022 election cycle.  We will lose every scrap of political leverage we gained on January 6th.

    But we are speaking about Democrats here.  Give republicans exactly what they need, a reason to rally and unite because the mean ole democrats are going to prosecute(persecute) a conservative President(victim) years after he left office.  
    Yeah, I'm the dense one.


    Why? (5.00 / 3) (#5)
    by Yman on Mon Feb 08, 2021 at 07:32:58 PM EST
    Why would someone pretend that articles of impeachment have to correspond to a federal crime?

    My Point Was, (none / 0) (#16)
    by RickyJim on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 10:09:47 AM EST
    to find out whether or not it would be better to let the legal system punish Trump for his behavior since election day.  I still haven't gotten a good answer.

    I see no reason to think (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Peter G on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 10:29:47 AM EST
    you would need to make a choice between the two. They are independent of one another, and potentially complementary. Impeachment is an essentially political process that concerns the appropriate governmental response to extreme misconduct in high office (removal from office, if the person is still in office, and exclusion from future officeholding, when deemed appropriate). Criminal prosecution is a purely judicial/legal process that concerns the appropriate societal response, that is, imposition of punishment, for violations of criminal statutes. The basis for each may or may not overlap the other.

    The Serious Downside (none / 0) (#19)
    by RickyJim on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 11:12:16 AM EST
    of the trial in the Senate is a delay in pursuing other matters which I need not detail.

    A trivial and desperate excuse (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by Peter G on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 01:14:32 PM EST
    ... and factually baseless ... and yet another shift of goalposts.

    Every traffic cop knows better (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jack E Lope on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 02:11:51 PM EST
    Every traffic cop gets offended by versions of, "Aren't there some real criminals you should be pursuing?"

    On top of that, Mitch McConnell has been the leading source of the US Senate's "delay in pursuing other matters" for the past 6 years, so what makes that an issue now?


    I'm Back and Forth on This... (none / 0) (#23)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 02:25:34 PM EST
    ...so somewhat playing the devils advocate.  Also doesn't matter because they are going thru with Impeachment.

    Why have both when one could potentially have a prison term, what is the Impeachment going to accomplish that a criminal trial can't ?

    The crimes he accused of would surely carry prison terms that would make running for office impossible in 4 years, maybe even 8, and after that he'll be 86.

    To me Impeachment makes sense if the person is still holding the position and you need them gone, but now, even on the off chance they find him guilty, it's a hand slap.  

    Guilty in the Senate might actually be his best best bet because it seems unlikely they would push forward with a criminal trial.  

    I also think it's best we get this done as soon as we can.  The longer it drags on the more it's going to seem like democrats are being vindictive.  I think we have one shot, if Senate votes no, we need to just let it go, or better yet, keep it close enough that Trump never knows when the hammer might fall.


    Happy Monday (none / 0) (#8)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Feb 08, 2021 at 08:55:38 PM EST
    Liz Cheney raises possibility of criminal investigation of Trump for provoking violence

    But she reserved her most pointed words for Trump. "People will want to know what the president was doing," she said. "They will want to know whether the tweet that he sent out calling Vice-President Mike Pence a coward while the attack was underway was a premeditated attempt to provoke violence."

    Georgia opens investigation into Trump effort to overturn election results

    Legal experts said Trump's phone calls might have violated at least three state criminal election laws: conspiracy to commit election fraud, criminal solicitation to commit election fraud, and intentional interference with performance of election duties.

    The felony and misdemeanor violations are punishable by fines or imprisonment.

    In the 2 January phone call, Trump urged Raffensperger, a fellow Republican, to "find" enough votes to overturn his Georgia loss to Joe Biden.

    This is no longer a Democrat witch hunt...

    Trump now faces nearly a dozen legal battles, including a criminal inquiry by the Manhattan district attorney, Cyrus Vance, into his business dealings, and several civil lawsuits.

    That investigation (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 05:29:41 AM EST
    being done by the Georgia SOS office is really just a process investigation. Criminal charges and the criminal investigation are out of the Fulton DA's office.

    CNN (none / 0) (#26)
    by FlJoe on Wed Feb 10, 2021 at 10:17:51 AM EST
    reporting that prosecutors have opened a criminal investigation into tRump's call in Georgia.

    Good timing (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Feb 10, 2021 at 10:27:31 AM EST
    March 4th (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 08:17:20 AM EST
    Supporters have shifted to merge their beliefs with those promoted by the extremist sovereign citizen movement

    Supporters of the sprawling QAnon conspiracy have begun to spread rumors that Donald Trump will become president again on March 4.

    In the latest twist to the baseless conspiracy theory in which the former president is portrayed as fighting an elite cabal of Satanist pedophiles, QAnon supporters have merged their beliefs with those promoted by the extremist sovereign citizen movement, whose followers refuse to recognize United States laws or any federal authority.

    In one video shared by Travis View, the co-host of the QAnon Anonymous podcast, a woman can be heard claiming Trump will take office on March 4. "A peaceful transition is coming. Trump will not be sworn in as the 45th president of the United States on january 20th. Trump will take office as the 19th president on March 4th, under the restored republic. Let me explain. You believe you live in a nation called the United States of America. This nation hasn't existed since 1871, when this country ceased to be a nation and became a corporation belonging to the city of London."

    Followers of the sovereign citizen movement believe a law passed in 1871 turned the U.S. into a corporation. They also claim the country has been run by a group of shadowy investors since 1933 when former President Franklin D. Roosevelt ended the gold standard.

    Book now (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 08:19:58 AM EST

    QAnon followers believe that former President Donald Trump will be sworn in on March 4, Insider reports.

    Coincidentally, the Trump International Hotel in Washington, DC, has hiked the prices of suites around that day. Some room rates at the hotel, just blocks from the White House, have almost tripled for March 3 and 4.

    Trump probably spread those rumors (none / 0) (#13)
    by MO Blue on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 09:07:28 AM EST
    so he could rob the rubes at his hotel on 3/3 & 3/4. /snark

    Does this mean there will be (none / 0) (#14)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 09:14:58 AM EST
    a government in exile headquartered at Mar-a-lago?

    Or (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 09:25:27 AM EST
    Rikers Island

    And, (none / 0) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 10:15:47 AM EST
    send money.

    Mary Wilson has died (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Feb 09, 2021 at 08:39:49 AM EST
    Motown Museum chair on Mary Wilson: 'World has lost one of the brightest stars in our family'
    Wilson, of famed `The Supremes' group, dies at 76

    Ed Sullivan

    So I laughed when Cuomo (none / 0) (#30)
    by coast on Thu Feb 11, 2021 at 08:11:02 PM EST
    received an Emmy.  As it turns out he is in fact a fantastic actor.

    Nikki (none / 0) (#31)
    by FlJoe on Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 06:25:08 AM EST
    leaves the reservation
    Haley said that she didn't think Trump would be a significant figure in the Republican Party going forward, and she admitted it was a mistake for the GOP to help him in his efforts to overturn the 2020 election.

    "He went down a path he shouldn't have, and we shouldn't have followed him, and we shouldn't have listened to him," she said. "And we can't let that ever happen again."

    of course she plays the who coulda seen this coming card.
    Haley insisted that she was proud of the work she had done for the former president, and claimed that something fundamentally changed in him after he lost the election.

    The politico (none / 0) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 12:54:56 PM EST
    article of Haley was scathing. Haley's problem is she is a POC in a party that worships white supremacy.

    Trying to walk that line (none / 0) (#36)
    by Yman on Fri Feb 12, 2021 at 03:39:11 PM EST
    Has to break away from Trump and try to wash the filth off without alienating the rest of the filth/base.

    Good luck with that, Haley.