Thursday Open Thread

Yes, the vote tallies in the four critical states can change, but probably not enough to make Donald Trump anything but a loser. Two of the lawsuits he filed yesterday have already been dismissed. I'm not celebrating yet, but this song has been popping into my head since yesterday:

All your seasick sailors, they are rowing home
All your reindeer armies, are all going home
The lover who just walked out your door
Has taken all her blankets from the floor
The carpet, too, is moving under you
And it’s all over now, Baby Blue

Leave your stepping stones behind, something calls for you
Forget the dead you’ve left, they will not follow you
The vagabond who’s rapping at your door
Is standing in the clothes that you once wore
Strike another match, go start anew
And it’s all over now, Baby Blue

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Biden IS AHEAD (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:35:48 AM EST
    In PA

    Finally. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:04:24 AM EST
    I have been waiting and waiting for this to happen.

    Blue shift breakthrough finally in PA (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Peter G on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:52:00 AM EST
    There is no going back from this, I don't think. I heard myself exhale.

    Decision Desk HQ (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:31:48 AM EST
    has called Penn for Biden and made the call for Biden as the 46 th President.

    Boom (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:41:22 AM EST
    This is going to be so ugly (none / 0) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:48:26 AM EST
    The cable conversation about it is so surreal.  

    Can they maybe say he did well and make him feel better?
    Who is going to be tasked with actually telling him he has to leave?

    I bet in a year it will be hard(re) to find a Trump voter.  There will be the hard core but the others are now looking at this unhinged thing and a viral explosion waiting in the next news cycle.  It will look like a bad decision starting now.


    It would not be surprising (none / 0) (#62)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:15:40 PM EST
    if Trump resigned rather than have to endure the loser lame duck period.  And, get a pardon from Pence. From the country's perspective, it may be the best way to go--get him out of there as soon as possible begin, possibly,  reconciliation.  He is a coward, and will probably not do too much damage by commission, but the omissions will continue to be deadly (e.g., pandemic and economic consequences).

    We know he will be leaving the White House with spoons in his pockets, but the country made a big mistake (not yet recognized by half of it), but we will all have to pay for it.  Not satisfying, in that he should be federally charged. But there are still civil and state charges possible, maybe even probable, and his creditors coming after him or his knee caps.


    I read (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:58:05 PM EST
    where he has huge personal loans due soon. It's also true the sooner we get him out of the white house the sooner he can take his grifting back to Trump Inc. and stop fleecing the tax payers. But that also might be another reason why he wont leave.

    I am not seeing this on my news feeds (none / 0) (#82)
    by Peter G on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:34:09 PM EST
    What are you citing and relying on? Reliable link?

    Decision Desk HQ (none / 0) (#84)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:41:24 PM EST
    call on election, Biden and Harris.

    and still, seven hours later, (none / 0) (#114)
    by Peter G on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:20:40 PM EST
    no one else. Not that I disagree. But still, Vox alone? I dunno that it's time to celebrate yet ....

    Either they (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:44:41 PM EST
    want a horse race to keep up the ratings or they are still being bullied.  AP and networks would have called it earlier otherwise.

    What he said (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:58:23 AM EST
    The Election System Worked

    November 6, 2020 at 12:08 pm EST By Taegan Goddard Leave a Comment

    Jonathan Bernstein: "Still counting the votes. But here's the good news: In the midst of a pandemic, harsh partisan polarization, the biggest turnout in more than a century (in percentage terms) or ever (in raw numbers), and persistent hostility from the president, the U.S. has pulled off what certainly appears to be a well-run, free and fair election."

    "Kudos to all the state and local officials who appear to have done an excellent job, and to the thousands of men and women who served as poll workers and who counted (or are still counting) the votes. More than 48 hours after the polls closed, I don't think I've heard a single serious complaint about election administration against either Democratic or Republican elected officials. Yes, I'm aware of the evidence-free accusations from President Trump and his allies, but those are actually signs that things have been well-run: If Trump had evidence of real problems or misconduct, he'd be parading it in front of the cameras -- and, more important, in front of judges. That hasn't happened."


    The Navajo Nation, ... (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:46:27 PM EST
    ... which has been ravaged by the COVID-19 pandemic this year, came out in force for Joe Biden by a whopping 97-3% margin, casting 73,954 votes for the Democratic challenger compared to just 2,010 for incumbent President Donald Trump. This was despite the season's first snowstorm which blanketed the region on Monday night. Given what's expected to be a narrow margin of victory in Arizona for Biden, the Navajo turnout likely proved decisive.

    First Nations had impact (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Towanda on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 04:44:00 PM EST
    in other states, too, including Wisconsin.

    I saw a map overlaying blue votes and tribal lands/population centers in several states, and the correlation is obvious,

    The source also politely asked that we not call Kamala Harris the first VP of color, pointing out that Hoover's VP was a member of theKaw tribe. i had not known that.


    I had not known that, either. (none / 0) (#136)
    by leap on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:48:15 PM EST
    Charles Curtis
    ...Born on January 25, 1860 in Topeka, Kansas Territory, before its admission as a state in January 1861, Charles Curtis had roughly 3/8 Native American ancestry and 5/8 European American. His mother, Ellen Papin (also spelled Pappan), was Kaw, Osage, Potawatomi, and French.[1][2] His father, Orren Curtis, was of English, Scots, and Welsh ancestry.[3] On his mother's side, Curtis was a descendant of chief White Plume of the Kaw Nation and chief Pawhuska of the Osage.[4]

    Curtis's first words as an infant were in French and Kansa, both languages learned from his mother. She died when he was three, but he lived for some time with his maternal grandparents on the Kaw reservation and returned to them in later years....

    That's awesome (none / 0) (#104)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:48:32 PM EST
    Trump treats everyone like garbage but his supporters are so blind they cannot see it.

    If the Democrats rigged the presidential election (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:20:46 PM EST
    how come they didn't rig the Senate too? Just wondering.

    MSNBC (5.00 / 2) (#167)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 10:10:16 AM EST
    Just called PA

    CNN (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 10:16:51 AM EST
    called election for Biden

    AP (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by FlJoe on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 10:23:50 AM EST

    Look like all of them (5.00 / 4) (#170)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 10:30:59 AM EST
    now.   Coordinated call.

    Congratulations to Joe Biden and Kamala Harris , the first POC and woman veep.   And, to Americans who treasure democracy.


    First woman VP (5.00 / 5) (#174)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 10:51:46 AM EST
    in the history of this country. Definitely a huge reason to celebrate.

    Among her many important accomplishments, she can dance unlike the lump who currently resides in the WH. I love the video of her dancing in the rain. It was truly joyous...much like how we feel today.


    Pennsylvania is celebrating (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Peter G on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 10:33:16 AM EST
    People in the street in Phila neighborhoods banging pots and pans. In the streets of NYC also. A giant sigh of relief. And not a single one of those b/s lawsuits has the potential to make any difference, not even at the Supreme Court under the worst of scenarios, that I can see.

    Huge crowd gathering outside the WH (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 11:59:45 AM EST
    Clips of them singing "Na na na na, hey hey hey, goodbye" made me smile "bigly."

    One of our wonderful neighbors (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Peter G on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 12:03:19 PM EST
    just announced a BYOB firepit celebration in the front yard for 7 pm tonight, with masks required except while drinking.

    Sounds like (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 12:28:26 PM EST
    you live in a fun neighborhood. Have a great time and stay safe.

    Yes, we do. An old, near-in suburb just west (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Peter G on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 02:06:40 PM EST
    of West Philadelphia, the "poor side" of the Main Line (which makes it a mix of working class, and middle to upper-middle class). About 40 medium-size single family homes (a couple larger, a couple smaller), most built 75 to 100 years ago. Mix of young families with elementary-school and younger kids, along with empty-nested oldsters like us. Immigrants from Poland, Switzerland, Ireland, the Caribbean, and India. Only one Black family so far, one Lesbian couple, one gay male couple, one never-married single mother (a lawyer), one or two young, unmarried couples. A lot of school teachers, nurses, other non-fancy professionals, etc. And the icing on the cake, a 1939 Frank Lloyd Wright quadraplex at the end of the block.

    That's cool (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 05:25:52 PM EST
    Have you heard of E Fay Jones.  I had not until I moved here.  He was an understudy of Wright.  He designed and built several structures in my Village.  There are two groups of Townhouses and at least one house.  As it happens my house which is one of 6 designs built here in the early days is based on this design.

    But that house is a lot smaller than mine.


    Does your roof leak? (none / 0) (#188)
    by leap on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 07:04:43 PM EST
    A common design flaw with FLW domiciles.

    Not at all (none / 0) (#189)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 07:31:58 PM EST
    But it's not FLW

    Just received a text from a good friend (none / 0) (#180)
    by Peter G on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 12:07:14 PM EST
    in Puerto Rico, by birth a Chicana from Texas, who says "Thank you to the people of Pennsylvania and la Virgen de Guadaloupe. And to the spirits of RBG and John Lewis."

    It's DONE. (5.00 / 4) (#172)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 10:39:03 AM EST
    JOE WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Alex Trebek has died (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 11:32:10 AM EST
    As an avid nightly viewer of Jeopardy, I feel like an old friend has died. Farewell Alex.


    What is a crappy year.

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by jmacWA on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 02:54:26 PM EST
    GA6: I don't know why I have to keep repeating this point: socialism is toxic.

    Perhaps you have to keep repeating this point because what you say is UNTRUE... I will give you that there is a large percentage of Americans who believe this, but the reality IMO is that it is not true. Those who believe it have simply been screamed at by the likes of Rush for 30+ years and have fallen for his lines.  

    Perdue (none / 0) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 03:51:56 PM EST
    back down under 50% at 49.9 and Biden down by just around 9K votes.

    Hold on there (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 03:56:19 PM EST
    Speaker Nancy Pelosi and her top lieutenants had a stark warning for Democrats Thursday: swing too far left and they're all but certain to blow their chances in the Georgia runoff that will determine which party controls the Senate," Politico reports.

    "Congressional Democrats are collectively pinning their hopes on a pair of Senate races in January in one of the most competitive states in the nation -- an outcome that could determine whether Democrats hold all levers of power in Washington next year, despite a disappointing night on Tuesday. While Joe Biden is looking likely to win the presidency, Democrats were shut out of key Senate races, dashing their hopes of reclaiming control of the chamber, and lost ground in the House despite being expected to significantly expand their majority."



    AOC Interview (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by jmacWA on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 05:33:10 AM EST
    Excerpted in the NYTimes (paywall) and the Guardian. The NYTimes has the more complete interview.

    Definitely worth a read IMO.

    If...the signal from the Democratic Party is the John Kasichs won us this election? I mean, I can't even describe how dangerous that is.

    EXACTLY, I am liking AOC more all the time. THIS is what will happen if the left is ignored.  Pelosi and the other corporate Democrats have to wake up... Today's moderate Democrat is to the right of yesterday's Rockefeller Republican.


    Moderates are running scared (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by CST on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 12:05:17 PM EST
    Because the progressive caucus now has the numbers and margin to make or break legislation in the house and they don't want them to use it.

    Politics is about power.  And right now in order to wield it moderate Democrats are going to have to work with the left when they'd rather not.  So they're trying to shame them into staying quiet but it's pretty clear that's not gonna work.


    Representative Ocasio-Cortez (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by KeysDan on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 01:22:47 PM EST
    said on CNN that President Biden understands the role progressives and others played in his victory.  From my perspective, I celebrate the differences within the Democratic party and recognize and appreciate the coalition necessary to the staunching of fascism.

    Probably no segment of the Democratic coalition will get all that is wanted and needed, including Biden and Harris. In large measure, it seems to me, that the more moderate members of the coalition want the same policies as progressives but are, understandably, risk-adverse  given their political environs. Probably,  all Democrats will need to walk in each other's shoes listening to each other so as to achieve common goals neither can do alone.

    I said "staunch" fascism, because the country is not yet out of the woods.  Key to stabilization of a democratic government is to keep energizing the better parts of the country--voter registration, voter rights and establishing a culture of voting. Yes, efforts should be made to reach out to "rural areas" and deprogram racists and misogynists, but that is longer term--and awaits NYTimes researchers' diner interviews.

    With the unfair structural advantage for Republicans, we will continue to have a turn-out battle. And, to be smart in advocating for the Democratic (i.e., progressive changes)policies and  programs that circumstances dictate.


    Kasich (none / 0) (#195)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    shouldn't even be mentioned since he couldn't even make Ohio swing. AOC needs to accept responsibility for her messaging being damaging but she never will. She's afraid of Clyburn apparently since he's the one that is really on her case and won't mention him but deflects to useless people like Kasich.  

    By that logic (5.00 / 2) (#196)
    by CST on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 12:46:31 PM EST
    Clyburn couldn't flip South Carolina.

    AOC doesn't owe the middle anything. She beat them to get her seat.


    She (none / 0) (#197)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 01:13:00 PM EST
    needs to realize how toxic she is to the rest of the country. And it's not because of the GOP. It's because of labeling herself a socialist and her abysmal messaging. Do you realize that "defund the police" sounds like anarchy to most people? She's in a +29 D district. How does that relate to anywhere else other than +29 D districts and Biden outperformed her in her own district.

    She represents her district (5.00 / 1) (#199)
    by CST on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 01:29:27 PM EST
    Her district deserves representation the way they see fit, not the way you see fit, not the way Clyburn sees fit, or anyone else except her own district.

    She's a New Yorker with all that entails. The northeast has it's culture too. You don't have to like it but you do have to live with it because it's not going anywhere. Whining about it incessently isn't going to help Dems win.


    It is (none / 0) (#201)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 01:49:01 PM EST
    not about her district. It is about her deciding she wants a national platform. She is trying to have it both ways saying her district etc. etc. but then wanting to go on all the TV shows which are national. If she just represented her district and didn't want a national platform that would be one thing but that is not what she has been doing. Having a national platform requires responsibility that she really isn't willing to do it seems.

    AOC needs to accept responsibility? (none / 0) (#200)
    by jmacWA on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 01:41:09 PM EST
    IMO she does so, I can understand your bitterness over Bernie much more than the way you are so down on AOC.  There is no doubt she still has much to learn but she is savvy and will IMO be around for a  long time.  She was a good foot soldier for Biden, and helped any house member who asked her to.  The fact that many refused her offer for help simply shows how well GOP BULLYING tactics work.  

    People (none / 0) (#202)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Nov 08, 2020 at 01:51:16 PM EST
    refused to help her because they don't want to be attached to a toxic label like socialism. I don't know why I have to keep repeating this point: socialism is toxic. Why she embraced a toxic label and then wants a national platform is beyond me. It's like she's in a bubble and can't see beyond it.

    Yeah, (none / 0) (#4)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 04:14:22 PM EST
    I have been screaming this literally for years that someone needs to shove Bernie in a closet and never let him out.

    Triangulation is now gonna have a major return.


    They call Pelosi a commie... (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:49:00 AM EST
    just the same as Bernie and the squad...truth does not matter.

    Govern the "third way" again and you might not get record turnout again.

    But if she is just talking about toning down rhetoric and focusing on more universally popular sh:t we need to get done till the runoff that's no big deal. Fail to deliver or at least fight ofor police reform, wealth disparity, and other more progressive pursuits for 4 years is not a good strategy.


    Yep (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:11:02 AM EST
    Obama was labeled a socialist as well. Want a repeat of 2010 and 2012 in Congress, go back to demonizing the left, go back to negotiating grand bargains with SS on the table and leave all progressive legislation off the table.

    Seriously (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:13:38 AM EST
    Bernie calls himself a socialist. That is the problem. He does nothing but help the GOP narrative along. AOC calls herself a socialist. There is a big difference between the GOP calling someone a name and people actually calling themselves one.

    Trump is what drove record turnout. You need to accept that socialism is not popular especially with communities of color. Bernie costs us Florida this year. There's no changing that fact and honestly Hillary should have never had him campaigning for her in WI in 2016 since I'm sure he probably cost her votes there too.


    Not actually accurate (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:41:01 AM EST
    Sanders and AOC are self defined Democratic Socialist. A definite difference that you and other moderates/conservatives chose to ignore in order to promote your agenda.

    Neither Obama or Pelosi or the majority of the Democratic Party are no way near Democratic Socialist; yet, the Republicans would label them socialist if Sanders and AOC did not exist.  Obama/Biden's choice to legislate promoting small ball, moderate policies lost them control of both houses of Congress. That is a fact. So called moderate Senators like Manchin and the party kissing Holy Joe's a$$ have prevented the party from passing a lot of meaningful legislation that appeals to the majority in the country. While Biden lost Florida, it is my understanding that an amendment for implementing a $15 minimum wage did pass. Something that would never happen throughout the country without being promoted by the left. Young people turned out in greater numbers in 2018 and 2020 because of the efforts of people like Sanders, Warren and AOC.

    Clinton lost because she was so overconfident that she ignored blue wall states and did not overcome her record on criminal justice and super predators remark.

    Biden's remark that he would close the country down again also lost him a lot of voter with small business owners who won't survive another shutdown.


    In politics (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:21:56 PM EST
    if you're explaining you're losing and spending an entire election season being on the defensive explaining the difference between democratic socialism and socialism is still an election discussing socialism. What they are is what would be called Social Democrats in Europe. However they have rejected that label and have embraced the socialism label. That is why they help stick the socialism label on candidates.

    Let's look at who had more support (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:33:51 PM EST
    With Hispanics shall we.

    Latinos make up about a third of the electorate in Texas and California, the two states that allotted the most delegates on Wednesday night. In both states, his efforts to reach out to Latinos paid off.

    Washington Post exit polls show that Sanders carried the Latino vote overwhelmingly: he had 49 percent of Latino support in California, where votes are still being counted but Sanders leading by an almost 10-point margin, and 39 percent in Texas, where he lost narrowly to Biden. By comparison, Biden won 19 percent of Latino voters in California and 26 percent in Texas.


    Every Hispanic activist that appeared on TV stated that Biden and the Democratic Party need to do much, much more on Hispanic outreach.  Those calls were not heeded to the extent needed. Also, rather than give Julian Castro a major role at the convention they gave a prime spot to. John (faking) Kasich who I doubt got them more than one vote. HIS.


    I agree (none / 0) (#89)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:07:17 PM EST
    that not giving Castro a prime time slot was a mistake. They should have taken Bernie's and given it to him and why they didn't I don't know. I honestly don't know what outreach would have worked though because at least the Hispanics I talked to it was about Obama's foreign policy that was a big turnoff among some other things. Cubans may be out of reach most times but Venezuelans are not and Venezuelans are where the Bernie/AOC contention damaged Biden. The word socialism is absolutely toxic in their community.

    The overwhelming majority of Hispanics (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Peter G on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:29:37 PM EST
    in the U.S. are of Mexican or Puerto Rican origin, and lean center left not right. Venezuelans are a one-digit percentage.

    How much did the moderate (none / 0) (#97)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:23:53 PM EST
    Dems talk about how the Republicans had  established policies to defund the SS Trust Fund which could reduce their checks in the near future. That was an opportunity that they were presented on a silver platter but I sure didn't see that as a major talking point from any of the Dems running for office.

    Also, Sanders, Warren and AOC did not tell Cal Cunningham to decide to put his attempt to have an affair in writing while running for the Senate.


    Ossoff (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:05:31 PM EST
    ran a so called "progressive" campaign and he never talked about social security. All he talked about was how he didn't take PAC money like Bernie. Until the debates he never mentioned Perdue's insider trading problem. It was 100% covid and PAC money. He is lucky he did as well as he did considering his abysmal campaign.

    Maybe Ossoff should let ... (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:21:10 PM EST
    ... Stacey Abrams run his runoff campaign.

    Oh (none / 0) (#110)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:12:16 PM EST
    Sounds like he ran a pretty bad race. Maybe, if he ran on some of the extremely popular policies of the left and the extremely unpopular policies of the right, he might have won.

    He gets another chance to do better. Hopefully, he and the other moderates don't tick off the left so much that they stay home.


    What would he (none / 0) (#113)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:18:53 PM EST
    have run on you think that would have made him beat Perdue?

    I wrote almost the exact same thing in my (none / 0) (#72)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:50:31 PM EST
    comment below. I swear I did not plagiarize :-)!
    I was busy typing at snails pace so did not see your comment till I posted.

    Agreed... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:47:19 AM EST
    that Trump drove record turnout...both for and against.

    Love of third way Corporate Dem Biden politics brought no one to the polls.  Govern like that and you lose the enthusiasm (and turnout) from the left and gain nothing from the right when the Repubs run somebody who isn't as despicable as Trump.

    And it's Democratic Socialists, if you please;) Who knows...show people what it really means in policy and practice they might like it! Just like even old Trumpers like and depend on their social(ism) security checks.


    Armando tweeted this and I agree with him. (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:43:45 PM EST
    Let me start the Biden Era by pissing people off --

    Ossoff and Warnock must expressly reject-

    1/ Court packing (it ain't happening now anyway)

    2/ MFA

    3/ Defunding the Police

    4/ Lockdowns.

    We have to win.

    I will add that they should probably distance themselves from Bernie, AOC, etc. Biden might be squeezing out a win in GA but it is
    by a razor thin margin. Without those Senate seats going blue nothing progressive is going to get passed. Heck, even with those Senate seats it is probably going to be impossible to pass any progressive policies.

    If we've learned anything about the general populace it is that most are uneducated/under informed. Expecting the general populace to understand the difference between 'democratic socialist' and 'socialist' is wishful thinking. Anytime, you have to spend time explaining what you mean, you are already in a losing position. 'Defund the police' is another prime example.  

    I don't think most people are resistant to progressive policies as is evident by the fact that the $15 minimum wage passed in FL.
    But, throw out labels like 'socialist' and there is an instant knee jerk response and you end up losing voters who might have otherwise voted for you.
    The repubs tried attaching the 'Socialist' label to Obama but it did not get as much traction because there was no AOC and Bernie (did not have the national recognition then) to hang around his neck.
    Rep. Donna Shalala (Fl 27th Congressional District - Little Havana neighborhood is in this district) got hammered with it and lost. Granted, that was not the only factor in her loss but it had a huge impact.

    I say, push for the progressive policies/ideas but run away from the labels and the people pushing the labels.


    I agree for the Georgia primaries (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:48:51 PM EST
    But there has to be room for the left in the big tent too.  The activists in cities aren't going anywhere and they are going to continue advocating for things that impact their lives.

    We can't just ignore it, there has to be a big enough tent for everyone.


    oy (none / 0) (#71)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:49:16 PM EST
    not primaries, runoff

    Agree with this wholeheartedly. (none / 0) (#73)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:57:50 PM EST
    But there has to be room for the left in the big tent too.

    Without the left pushing we would probably never  even get incremental change in the right direction. But, I do believe like Ga6thdem that most of the country is still very much in the middle, so we have to drag them along without scaring them into running in the other direction.


    The issue there is local politics (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:05:05 PM EST
    In blue states people won't stop trying to fix things at home just because it will scare people in purple states.

    Democrats don't control the advocates and the advocates want to scare Democratoc leadership at home.  Even if you ask nicely for people to stop saying defund the police or whatever they are still gonna march and say it.

    What people want is for the left to be quiet but that's not how it works.


    I guess I am not expressing myself very well. (none / 0) (#78)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:24:18 PM EST
    In blue states people won't stop trying to fix things at home just because it will scare people in purple states.

    What people want is for the left to be quiet.

    I am not advocating for any of this.


    I guess it's hard to see (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:31:33 PM EST
    What you are calling for in practice.

    It's all well and good to ask politicians not to use certain language but for the most part they don't, and those that do are representing their constituents well, part of that means pushing back on public messaging.


    What the (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:43:59 PM EST
    progressive left needs is better messaging. Their messaging sucks. Defund the police is idiotic but police reform would have wide support I'm willing to bet. Medicare for All sounds like you are taking someone's Medicare away and giving it to somebody else. Expanding health coverage is a positive way to put it to the voters like expanding Medicaid has broad support. Right? Drop the socialist label. Don't call yourself socialist anything.

    The left isn't messaging for the center (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:02:30 PM EST
    They are trying to fix their own houses.

    They will never message to the center because it's directly contrary to their goals of beating the center at home.  It's not here just for national politics.


    It's not about (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:10:09 PM EST
    messaging to the center. It's their messaging sucks period. Do you think that people in their districts want zero police? Defund the police means get rid of the police.

    I think people (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:14:15 PM EST
    In their districts elected them in part because of their messaging.

    It didn't originate with politicians, it came from the streets, so yes I do think that matters.


    So you think (none / 0) (#93)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:17:01 PM EST
    that their constituents want police departments eliminated?

    I think their constituents (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:20:53 PM EST
    Are the people marching in the streets chanting it in the first place.

    Not the people playing dumb about what they mean.  They want someone who respects their anger.


    Do you think (none / 0) (#102)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:45:16 PM EST
    their constituents want police departments eliminated? You seem to be implying they do.

    I was "implying" (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:49:38 PM EST
    They aren't playing dumb about it, and neither am I.

    I get it (1.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:50:59 PM EST
    They want the police eliminated in their districts.

    No, unfortunately, it seems that (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by Peter G on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:25:31 PM EST
    you do not "get it." "Defund the police" does not mean "eliminate the police" to most of the people using that slogan. I think it's a bad slogan, communicates poorly, and drives up the opposition. But "eliminate" is not what (most of) the proponents mean.

    I agree (none / 0) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:30:25 PM EST
    Peter and that was my point. The messaging sucks on this.  

    Very much in the same (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:52:32 PM EST
    category as "Shut up and dribble."

    The party establishment want our votes, our money and our work to get out the vote but please, please let us demonized you and blame the left for all the shortfalls of the party. When the left and the youth vote swallows a candidate that is no way what is acceptable to us and does everything to support the candidate, the opportunity to heap scorn and blame on us continues.

    When the youth who have little loyalty to the Democratic Party, stays home in 2022 don't be surprised.


    No (none / 0) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:15:32 PM EST
    it is about get better messaging. The messaging sucks. But yeah, if you can't think of any way of describing keeping police from killing people other than eliminating police departments maybe it is better to say nothing.

    Better for who? (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:17:39 PM EST
    Not the people saying it.

    So you truly (none / 0) (#99)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:31:37 PM EST
    think they want police departments eliminated? I disagree. Just because someone in the street is yelling something doesn't mean I have to repeat it either.

    Since the Democratic Party (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:56:02 PM EST
    could not win even a campaign for dog catcher without the left, maybe moderate and establishment Dems would be better saying Thank You or if they can't do that, say nothing.

    And if moderates (none / 0) (#111)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:13:07 PM EST
    sit home the left couldn't win dog catcher. You can't win without the center either. If you're messaging repels a lot of people all that needs to be done is get better messaging.

    Guess what (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:27:37 PM EST
    moderates messaging repels a lot of people. The message of this is the best that we can do so please be satisfied and don't ask for what you need. The crumbs we will give you is better than nothing.  Please don't ask the Democratic Party to actually fight for what you need because we would rather write stern letters.

    The moderate Dems lose elections because they don't deliver more than crumbs and they are unwilling to go to the wall to fight for more progressive policies that could move the Overton Window.


    Obvioulsy (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:14:19 PM EST
    you think a socialist would win an election nationwide. I do not. We are never going to agree about this.

    I'm more than capable (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:24:44 PM EST
    Of speaking for myself and don't need you to put your words in my mouth.

    I think the center should mind their own business when it comes to how blue state politicians choose to represent THEIR consituents.  Everything else you said is your own delusional and IMO deliberate misinterpretation.


    Sorry if you werent replying to me (none / 0) (#127)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:31:24 PM EST
    I may have gotten that mixed up.  I still think you are deliberately misinterpreting things.

    No, I was replying (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:12:40 PM EST
    to MO not you.

    I think a Democratic Socialist (none / 0) (#132)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:30:24 PM EST
    Could win nationwide in the not too distant future. The younger generation is much more liberal than the older generation and it is the Sanders, Warrens and the AOCs and their people centric policies that excite them and get them to turn out to vote. The moderate, corporate centric policies turn them off big time. This age migration happens throughout all races and ethnicities.  It is only many of the older generation who chose to ignore the major differences between Socialists and Democratic Socialists in order to promote their agenda as the only acceptable way to govern. The younger generation is much more knowledgeable and enlightened to buy into that limited viewpoint.

    Sometimes that's exactly what we have to do (none / 0) (#96)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:22:10 PM EST
    to get to a position where we can have a voice.
    Very much in the same category as "Shut up and dribble."

    Isn't "shut up and dribble" exactly what most of us did in voting for Biden. I might be wrong but I don't think he was first, second or even third choice for most of us.


    No that is not what is going on (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:44:52 PM EST
    We voted for Biden to get a voice at the table not to now be told that we are at blame for the Party's shortcomings and we need to shut up.

    The left did not support Joe Lieberman. We defeated him in the primaries only to see moderate Dems support him in the general so that he could block the Dems agenda. The left did not put SS on the table and try to decrease COLA in a grand bargain. The left did not bargain away cheaper prescription drug prices. The left did not give the banks free money and then put together the tiniest bill to help ordinary people. It was the moderate, establishment Dems that chose to do all these things and more that cost us the House and the Senate in 2010 and 2020.

    I will tell you what Sander, Warren, AOC and the left did do. They worked non stop to promote a $15. minimum wage so that millions of people could have enough money to survive. They did this even when the moderate Dems tried to shut them up because it would upset the corporate world. Guess what. More corporations and states have adopted the $15 minimum wage through there efforts.


    Speaking for myself only, I am not blaming (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:43:07 PM EST
    the left for the Party's shortcomings.

    However, with all the options that the rank and file had to pick from to lead the party, they picked Mr. In The Middle. They did not pick Warren and came out in droves to block Bernie when it looked like he might have a shot.

    If the left cannot sell their message well enough to their own party, how do we get the rest of the country on board. I agree with Ga6thdem, in that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the message but there is an issue with the messaging. That's my 2c, probably not even worth that much!

    For now, I am just glad to have got rid of the monstrosity in WH. I am going to enjoy it for a while.


    Perhaps (none / 0) (#123)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:07:07 PM EST
    living in a swing state makes us look at things differently.

    Apparently it means (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:09:58 PM EST
    You think blue states shouldn't have vocal representation.

    We're not the ones telling you how your elected officials have to act.


    No (none / 0) (#130)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:19:12 PM EST
    what I am saying is that socialism is a toxic label across the nation but people in deep blue districts apparently do not realize that.  

    You think we are stupid (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:56:30 PM EST
    The truth is we just don't care what they think. They are here to represent us, not the people that fear them. The left is entitled to representation in government too.

    You don't get to pick our messaging, you don't get to pick our candidates, and you don't get to tell us to shut up.  You get to elect your own non socialist candidates. That's it.


    Jeezus, CST. No one thinks you are stupid. (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:52:35 PM EST
    That (none / 0) (#156)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 04:19:24 AM EST
    article really doesn't explain why progressive politicians have problems though.

    I never said you (none / 0) (#140)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:25:33 PM EST
    couldn't pick your own candidates. However if your candidates try to write legislation for the entire country without the consideration that the rest of the country is not a deep blue district then it is a problem. Mostly that's why a lot of it fails to garner enough votes and frustrates the writers.

    We have Marjorie Taylor Greene here in GA who is a domestic terrorist supporter and an anti-Semite. Do you think that actually helps the GOP across the rest of the nation even though that is who her crackpot district voted for?


    The fact that you equate the left (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:35:51 PM EST
    with a domestic terrorist is completely f*cked, but I think the GOP across the nation doesn't care about your crackpot rep one way or the other frankly.

    Literally no one is passing legislation right now, not even centrist Dems, so that's not quite the burn you think it is.

    You've made yourself clear that you don't want to hear us but we're not going anywhere so one way or another the tent is either going to be big enough or the party dies.  There are no other choices because sitting down and shutting up won't happen no matter how hard you wish for it.


    I am (none / 0) (#143)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:45:01 PM EST
    equating fringe with fringe. Oh, yes, the GOP praised Marjorie Taylor Greene and then had to rescind that praise because of who she is.

    I keep saying get better messaging. The messaging sucks not to shut up. If your goal is to eliminate police departments then your messaging is getting through. If it is to reform the police department then you need to convey that. That is all I'm saying. If you're constantly having to explain that defunding really doesn't mean eliminating you're losing because if you're explaining then you've lost the argument.  


    So we can speak (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:05:32 PM EST
    But only if we say what centrists want us to.  

    That's not how it works.


    Let me (none / 0) (#145)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:16:13 PM EST
    put it another way. Your messaging repels natural allies who could work with you to find common goals. It is not about whether you can speak or not.  

    We're fighting (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:41:07 PM EST
    a battle against our own Democratic leadership in cities across the country. Centrists aren't our natural allies in that case.

    Not everything has to be messaged for national politics.


    "Good evening. As you're all undoubtedly aware, the past few months have been extremely challenging, to say the very least. But whatever our differences, it should be infinitely clear by now to everyone that nobody is going to get what they want, or anything near it.

    "Nevertheless, as Democrats we stand united in our political frustration. For what could be more reflective of our Party, really, than this perpetual cycle of promise, letdown and disillusionment? Indeed, it is our mutual sense of disappointment, recrimination, despondency and apathy which ultimately brings us together.

    "As our party's candidate, I have long harbored many hopes and dreams for our nation and its people. And one day, perhaps in a memoir written after I finally retire to Cabo San Lucas or Ensenada, I hope to tell you what they are.

    "Thank you very much, and God bless our troops, regardless of whatever hellhole they so happen to have been sent lately."



    The message that Biden (none / 0) (#138)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:17:24 PM EST
    sold was that he was not Trump who more than half the country hates passionately and he loved bipartisanship. No threat to Republicans because he will not change much.

    What you seem to be missing is that your moderates did not have a message that people wanted to buy. They could not get people in their states to elect them to represent them in state legislations, House seats or in the Senate in this election cycle where they had so many winning messages that they failed miserly to promote. One of the few candidates that defeated a Republican for the Senate is a strong advocate for gun control. Not exactly a moderate position. Amendments for a $15 minimum wage, allowing felons to vote and legalizing marijuana (progressive policies) have passed in states where moderate Dems failed to be elected.

    Your moderates could not sell themselves in 2010 after they pursued their "can't do much" policies even when they had control of the WH, the House and the Senate. They could not sell their message when they lost even more seats in 2012 and could not sell their moderate message when they could not even defeat a pig like Trump.

    Not sure how you think that moderates have such a winning message when they have such a bad track record.


    I don't know (none / 0) (#141)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:33:12 PM EST
    why you keep bringing up 2010. 2010 happened because Obama sucked at messaging and spent a whole year getting the ACA passed and all anybody had to run on was an imaginary health plan that the GOP had defined before anybody even got to sign up for it.

    Like the post above says why can't you sell all these supposedly great ideas to even Democrats? Biden wasn't my first choice and frankly he was my next to the last choice in the primary but it was who the voters picked not Bernie or Warren who ran on things like MFA.

    And as far as 15.00 wage it is not labeled as socialism. It is an issue but if you start self labeling it as socialism just wait for it to die. You should read propane Jane on twitter. She has made many great arguments about why this socialism label is so toxic and one of the reasons is because of institutional racism along with immigrants running from authoritarian socialist countries.  


    I don't believe I have made the claim anywhere (none / 0) (#151)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 09:43:06 PM EST
    that 'moderates' have a winning message and 'the left' don't. In fact, I believe I said, it is not the message but the messengers and the messaging that is getting in the way.
    I agree with the $15 min wage, MFA or at the very least a Public Option, Gun Control, Court Packing, addressing Climate Change.
    I agreed with you that Obama did not push enough and was willing to give away too much when trying to negotiate the ACA. I supported raising taxes on high income earners/households of which I am one. And yet, in all your comments you are the 'left' and I am the 'moderate' which is fine by me because I do consider myself a moderate.
    But, if you are castigating moderates like me that agree with you on so many issues, how are you going to get the rest of the not so moderates on board.

    Why is it ok for you (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 11:40:08 PM EST
    to blame the left for all of the woes of the party? In past comments you chose to castrate (your word choice) the left for the Dems losing seats in the House, the Senate and in state legislations. Moderates and establishment Dems blaming and demonizing the left at every opportunity seem to have dual standards. Believe me the constant blame for failures of the party will not continue to get the support you need to get your moderate candidates elected.

    This whole thread started by moderates blaming the Dems loses on the left. You don't like their messengers or their messages. So the left should just do the work, vote for candidates and the messages we don't like and shut up. There was no acknowledgement that Dem candidates would have been labeled as socialist if Sanders or AOC did not exist. It was easier to blame the left for loss of Hispanic votes even when every Latino activist warned for over a year that the Dems were not doing enough outreach in the communities. They were very vocal in notifying the Dems that the Republicans were putting in the work and that the Dems were not. The signs that they were losing a share of this virtual population were there for anyone who chose to look. Yet, the Dems chose to spend their time and money on outreach to Republicans while ignoring to a great extent the warnings. It was easier to blame the left, than acknowledge that Biden's statement that he would close the country down lost a lot of votes of small business owners and their workers for the party across the ballot. It was easier to blame the left, than acknowledge that the candidates spent little time on what the Republicans were doing to defund SS and Medicare. An issue that would have helped increase votes from seniors across the ballot. So many lost opportunities but it is easier to blame the left.

    BTW, good luck on getting a viable public option. It is a con put forward every few years by moderate politicians.


    I don't have (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:36:17 PM EST
    a problem with them helping their districts however they can. AOC took a seat from someone who got complacent. Good for her. However my problem is how the progressive left keeps pushing her for ridiculous things like to replace Chuck Schumer. Not that I think Chuck Schumer doesn't need to be replaced but that they don't recognize that the rest of the country is not like a deep blue district in MI or NY and AOC likely would not even win a statewide race in NY. Too much myopia going on with the "progressive left". Yes, be a part of a big tent and realize that you are going to win and you are going to lose but most of all be realistic about goals that include the rest of the country.

    Exactly when have the moderate Dems (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:05:58 PM EST
    done anything other than shove your policies down the throats of the left of the party. Maybe moderates might want to give the same respect as they demand.

    The realistic goals of the moderate Dems are to play small ball, write stern letters and lose their majorities to the Republicans after they have rehabilitated them.


    And candidates (none / 0) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:16:10 PM EST
    from the far left lose outside of deep blue districts. What I don't understand is if there is so much support for democratic socialism then why don't these candidates run in red districts and flip them? Remember all the Our Revolution candidates are on 0 for flipping red to blue.

    The moderates (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:35:07 PM EST
    in this election cycle lost in blue districts, in purple districts and in red districts. I'm pretty sure that all of the candidates who lost Senate races could be accurately be considered moderates.

    In swing (none / 0) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:15:36 PM EST
    districts moderates are elected and moderates are always the first ones to get wiped out too. It is the way it goes. You're making the same argument the tea party has been making and that if we cater to just a portion of the party everything will turn out all right. It only works if you have everything gerrymandered in your favor.

    You are making the same argument (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:43:15 PM EST
    as the current Republican Party. The argument that politicians must toe the party line regardless of the wishes or well being of the constituents they were elected to represent.  

    IIRC your moderates lost seats in state legislatures that will allow the Republicans to continue to gerrymander their states.


    No (none / 0) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:19:25 PM EST
    you're actually making the same argument as the tea party where if you don't do what I want we won't vote for you.

    Again, there were candidates proposing these ideas that you want and they couldn't get out of the primary.


    Not true (none / 0) (#154)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:39:30 PM EST
    In 2020, The left  went out of their way to campaign, raise money and rally support for the left to vote for candidates that we strongly disagree with. The left showed up and voted. The left increased the youth vote and they voted for candidates that they didn't particularly like. The party's moderates rewarded us by blaming us for the failure of their moderate candidates to develop a winning strategy. The majority of the Republicans they spent so much time and money to court once again went home and voted for the Republican candidate.

    Once again, the moderates couldn't win no matter how much money and work the left provided or how bad their Republican opposition proved to be. The moderates failed to close the deal. That is fact. Repeating over and over "but Sanders" does not change the fact that the moderate candidates lost. They lost in 2020. They lost in 2010, 2012, 2016 and now again in 2020.


    MoBlue, are you talking about (none / 0) (#146)
    by vml68 on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:19:03 PM EST
    U.S. Congressional districts or State house districts?

    The moderates in this election cycle lost in blue districts, in purple districts and in red districts.

    If the former, I am only aware of one blue district that flipped and that is the one I mentioned earlier, FL 27th. FL 26th also flipped to red, the repub who won was the Mayor of Miami-Dade county, that was a tough seat to hold on to. All the others NM 2nd, MN 7th, OK 3rd, etc., were all red districts and all went heavily for Tr*mp.

    The Senate seats all went with the way their state voted. Blue states voted for the Democrat and Red ones voted Republican.


    The run offs (none / 0) (#98)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:29:43 PM EST
    between Jon Ossoff and David Perdue, and Rev. Raphael Warnock and Kelly Loeffler with be a function, primarily, of voter turnout. From that perspective Stacey Abrams will be key to their campaigns and their success.

    We all agree with Armando's "we have to win". However, his general issues (e.g. Court packing, MFA, defunding police and lockdowns) may not necessarily be Georgia-specific.  And, the two races, Ossoff/Perdue and Warnock/Loeffler, take on different tactics.

    Policies, unfortunately, are secondary to other factors.  Indeed, Perdue's campaign was devoid of policies other than being all in for Trump, whatever that entails.  And, to deploy antisemitism.

     Loeffler prides herself in being "to the right of Attila the Hun".  Loeffler, whose husband owns and is CEO of the company that owns the New York Stock Exchange, will find money to finance her run between the cushions of her couch.

    Perdue and Loeffler share allegations of corruption, both having been charged with insider trading on Corona virus senatorial information.  Jon Ossoff, flat-out called Perdue a "crook" in his first debate (Perdue ducked out of a second debate). Ossoff is a very good debater.

    Reverend Warnock may have the edge in his run off; both Ossoff and Warnock have have to recalibrate in light of the Biden victory and Trump defeat. Both Loeffler and Perdue have been Trump remora, and between now and Jan 5, new opportunities will likely surface to bring to bring to the voters attention.


    We can (none / 0) (#100)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 02:42:31 PM EST
    win both of these seats but what we need is a Carvillesque throw your opponent an anchor when is drowning type consultants. Warnock actually has run a better campaign than Ossoff. Ossoff's campaign has sucked until the DSCC or some of the PACs came in and started running ads for him. Until the debates came up, I don't recall Ossoff ever mentioning Perdue's insider trading problem. Warnock didn't need to mention it because Collins did all the dirty work for him.

    Bernie (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:29:38 PM EST
    couldn't even get voters to turn out for him in the primaries. Just because he excites YOU doesn't mean anything other than he excites YOU. Apparently to a lot of people he doesn't excite them in the least.

    It's not about Bernie (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by CST on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:32:36 PM EST
    apparently you're saying its about the entire progressive left.

    Very different things.


    No fly zone (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 03:54:30 PM EST
    The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on Wednesday issued a flight advisory for Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden's hometown of Wilmington, Del., directing private aircraft pilots to observe a no-fly zone around the former vice president's home as he moves closer to securing an election victory.

    A flight advisory from the agency urges all pilots not departing or arriving from nearby New Castle Airport or taking part in emergency missions to avoid the area unless otherwise approved by officials.

    Drone operators were also warned as part of the advisory that unauthorized flights in the area could result in damage or destruction of their property.

    The Orange One (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 04:49:32 PM EST
    Will speak in 30 minutes.

    Might be good.

    This is the one time I'm looking forward (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by desertswine on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 05:12:31 PM EST
    to hearing his weasel voice.

    He really is (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 05:45:43 PM EST
    Just babbling nonsense.  It's amazing.  The same nonsense over and over.  He has talked about the blocked windows at least 4 different times so far.  Round and round.

    Trump was absolutely pathetic. (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by desertswine on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 06:11:51 PM EST
    He looked awful, he sounded pathetic, claiming the election was fraudulent and that he was cheated at all turns.  This could be dangerous.  Another sad day for the US, as has been so many since this turd became president.

    If he keeps this up (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 06:27:03 PM EST
    I think there will be some kind of republican intervention.

    It is dangerous.  And crazy.  If there is some kind of incident even more so.


    Not optimistic (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:40:55 AM EST
    about Republican intervention. The Republican Party is a fascist movement and decent outliers will keep their heads down until it seems very safe to come up. Timing is of the essence for the remaining states to.finish counts any make the calls. Republicans are complicit in Trump's seditious undermining of democracy.

    Ben Ginsberg just said (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:40:38 AM EST
    and I think I agree that the "intervention" would not be "you have to stop" but "you are on your own"

    Most elected republicans are going to stay away from this.

    Having Hannity, Gingrich, Lou Dobbs and pi$$ants like Graham screaming stolen election is not going to have much of a legal effect.  It is very dangerous and any violence is going to be laid right at their feet.

    Also the FOX screamers are going to be somewhat muted if FOX calls the election for Biden.  As expected.


    Quote (none / 0) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:17:25 AM EST
    "It's difficult to see the long-term winning strategy behind these lawsuits. To mix metaphors, it looks like throwing the kitchen sink at the wall and see what sticks."

    -- Republican elections attorney Ben Ginsberg

    Incident (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 06:28:39 PM EST
    As votes are being tallied across the country to determine the next president, internal Facebook data shows that the company has seen a significant increase in what it calls "violence and incitement trends," BuzzFeed News reports.

    I was kind of shocked that NPR put it on (none / 0) (#16)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 06:47:07 PM EST
    live, and let it go for about ten minutes before just cutting him off, but then did nothing to fact-check even the most egregious and obvious lies. The dispute in Philadelphia, for example, is whether Republican (and Democratic) poll watchers in the Convention Center, where the mail-ins are being opened and tabulated, may stand as close as six feet (if masked) from the work stations, as the Republicans insist, or must instead stay 20 feet back, as the City has declared. There is no truth to the claim that accredited poll watchers are being kept out of the building or even "100 feet back" as Tr*mp directly and falsely claimed. Not to mention that this was an overtly partisan, campaign statement being made -- utterly improperly -- from the Presidential Podium in the White House.

    The Rs have challenged the protocols for (none / 0) (#17)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 07:00:02 PM EST
    observing the count in Philadelphia in both state and federal court (which for some reason is being allowed, even though normally one court system will defer to the other, whichever gets the case first). In federal court they drew one of the meanest, most conservative judges, a GWB appointee, who just turned them down, after their lawyer admitted that the Republican observers had not been excluded from the building, as they had initially falsely claimed.

    The obvious answer: (none / 0) (#35)
    by jmacWA on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:38:17 AM EST
    It gives them two bites at the apple.

    Love this (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 05:32:16 PM EST
    "President Trump has struggled to convince the country he already won the election. So he's just going to do the next best thing: Act like he's starting his second term early," Politico reports.

    "Trump and his aides have settled on a plan for him to take full advantage of his existing perch at the White House to look as presidential as possible, according to three people briefed on the strategy. He may fire a few Cabinet members and top aides, including FBI Director Chris Wray and Defense Secretary Mark Esper. He could sign a slew of base-pleasing executive orders. He might even resume his travel schedule."

    "Meanwhile, Trump's team is planning to mount even more legal challenges and cast evidence-deficient aspersions on the integrity of ballots."

    good luck with that


    I only just learned (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 05:03:53 PM EST
    Joe Biden's middle name is Robinette


    Grandmother's (none / 0) (#8)
    by KeysDan on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 05:27:17 PM EST
    maiden name.

    Irish custom (none / 0) (#25)
    by Towanda on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 10:14:06 PM EST
    My muddle name is my grandmother's name.

    I continued the tradition with my children, and my daughter continues it with hers.

    It can be continuing another surname in the clan but often is a grandmother's or mother's surname, since those are lost upon marriage. To put it another way, it is Irish women's revenge.


    Oops (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 05:28:32 PM EST
    Might be Trump votes

    "More than 150,000 ballots were caught in U.S. Postal Service processing facilities and not delivered by Election Day, agency data shows, including more than 12,000 in five of the states that have yet to be called for either President Trump or his Democratic challenger, Joe Biden," the Washington Post reports.

    "Despite assurances from Postal Service leaders that agency officials were conducting daily sweeps for misplaced ballots, the mail service acknowledged in a court filing Thursday that thousands of ballots had not been processed in time, and that more ballots were processed Wednesday than on Election Day."


    All of those ballots should be disregarded (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 06:41:13 PM EST
    because they are now "illegal," according to the decompensating clown making statements from the White House. Along with all the U.S. Military mail-ins that have traditionally be recognized for up to ten days after Election Day.

    We are down (none / 0) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 07:26:56 PM EST
    to 3500 votes. Former Mayor Theresa Tomlinson of Columbus who has good connections in the state party predicts a 3500 vote margin for Biden while her connections in the party say it's Biden by 5K when all the counting is done.

    That would be 5000 out of how many (none / 0) (#19)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 07:39:12 PM EST
    million votes cast in Georgia? (After all the voter suppression efforts your state government has inflicted.) I'm thinking an incredibly slim margin, then.

    It is (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 08:43:12 PM EST
    an incredibly thin margin and likely will go to a recount but a win is still a win and we needed one here in GA even if only a few thousand votes to show that the GOP cannot rule over us with their authoritarian garbage forever.

    Yes, (none / 0) (#23)
    by KeysDan on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 09:34:28 PM EST
    537 votes in Florida in 2000, did it for Bush and to Gore.  And, to  the country.

    Now down to (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 08:45:47 PM EST
    1902 out of approximately 5 million votes cast. I believe we have around 12 million residents. So I'm not sure if that is good turnout or not.

    And the next ballot dump (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Towanda on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 10:16:54 PM EST
    that turns Georgia blue and puts Biden/Harris past 270 is expected to again come from Clayton County, home of the late, great champion of voting rights John Lewis.

    Sometimes, history is pure poetry.


    UPDATE: As of 4:20 a.m. EST, ... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 03:35:15 AM EST
    ... Joe Biden now has a 917-vote lead over President Trump out of nearly 4.9 million cast.

    I woke up in time for this (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Towanda on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 07:09:25 AM EST
    and can nap later.

    I also awoke to an update on a family email thread on many nieces and nephews who stepped up as pollworkers, including one in Atlanta -- and it turns out he did so (and lives in) John Lewis's district.

    The kids are all right.


    I can't begin to describe ... (none / 0) (#31)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 04:02:17 AM EST
    ... the palpable sense of personal relief I felt as I typed that. It's as though the biggest weight in the world just lifted itself off my shoulders.

    Donald Trump is going down. It's really and truly happening. And after all the sheer racist and xenophobic ugliness we've seen from this administration these past four years, for the fateful blow to be delivered by Atlanta-area Democratic voters in the heart of Dixie is the delicious ultimate in irony.

    What an emotional roller-coaster of a week!


    I was out and about late yesterday (5.00 / 3) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:36:37 AM EST
    Maybe it was my imagination but I thought I could feel the drop in the tension level.

    It was like a world without Trump.

    Didn't see a single unmasked person.


    Yes (none / 0) (#45)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:03:40 AM EST
    it is starting to feel that way. The Republicans here in GA are having a meltdown accusing everybody of cheating.

    Well, you know, (none / 0) (#52)
    by MKS on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:59:41 AM EST
    the Governor and Secretary of State in Georgia are in with the Dems on the fraud, no?  

    At this immediate moment, ... (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:24:04 PM EST
    ... the most politically influential person in Georgia is probably Stacey Abrams - and further, Gov. Kemp knows it and also likely realizes there's really nothing he can do about her grassroots juggernaut.

    Abrams and other Black women are going to be the great equalizer in your state's politics, because they're generally results-oriented coalition builders. If anyone can muscle Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock into the U.S. Senate, it's Abrams and Co.



    This is true (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:33:09 PM EST
    without the ability to build coalitions you don't get anywhere.

    Yes, (none / 0) (#51)
    by MKS on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 08:58:28 AM EST
    African Americans in Clayton County put Biden over the top in Georgia, and African Americans in Philadelphia put Biden over the top in  Pennsylvania.

    Very sweet indeed.


    2000/5,000,000 is (none / 0) (#22)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 09:27:38 PM EST
    4/100 of a percent!

    You know what? (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 10:02:11 PM EST
    I'll take it. Winning by a hair is way better than losing by 20 points which we did in 2014 or 4 points in 2016.

    Anyone know why Nevada is taking so long (none / 0) (#27)
    by vml68 on Thu Nov 05, 2020 at 11:09:52 PM EST
    to count their ballots?
    Some states have counted over ten million ballots and Nevada has done only about 1.2 million in 3 days!
    While I was searching for more info, I came across a few funny memes on twitter.

    Nevada counting ballots

    Live look at Nevada counting ballots

    this the mf counting the votes in Nevada

    Another tweet I've seen...

    Tr*mp has a path to 270, if he loses a 100 pounds :-)

    Slow Nevada (none / 0) (#28)
    by SomewhatChunky on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:37:25 AM EST
    I live near Lake Tahoe in Nevada.

    No idea why we are so slow, but it doesn't surprise me.  As a local, it's a bit embarrassing to finally get some national attention and then look like a turtle.

    You should know ballots that were postmarked by Nov 3 will be accepted until Nov 10th.  That may explain the lack of urgency.

    The mail can be a few days slow here in the rural areas.  But not many people live in these spots so unless it's down to a few hundred votes, I don't think that will matter.


    Maybe Nevada just wants... (none / 0) (#54)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 09:19:30 AM EST
    PA or GA to be the state that puts Biden over the top so all the crazies with Trump, Blue Lives Matter, Gadsden, and Confederate flags on their pick up trucks caravan to Philly and Atlanta instead of Vegas.

    If that is the case, I can't say I blame 'em!  


    Yes, (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by KeysDan on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 09:53:17 AM EST
    The  Alphonse Gaston syndrome.  And, then there are the bipartisan casinos for.Nevada to think about.

    It would be sweet for the southern state of Georgia to go first, and bitter for Trump's toadies Governor Kemp and Senators Loeffler and Perdue.


    Come for the neo-nazi riot... (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:17:48 AM EST
    and leave some coin at the craps tables while you're here is probably not a winning tourism strategy long-term.

    That is precisely (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:24:33 PM EST
    why I think GA won't call it for Trump. Kemp will have domestic terrorists at his door. As it is now Perdue and Loeffler are cowering in the closets because can either continue to cling to someone who lost their state or they can face the wrath of the Trumpers.

    Frankly (none / 0) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:22:25 PM EST
    I have been shocked none of those people have been showing up at the Fulton County elections board threatening the vote counters. The only reason I can think they are not there is that GA flipping has caught them off guard and they are so afraid of black people they wont venture into Atlanta.

    665 in GA! (none / 0) (#29)
    by ruffian on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:46:58 AM EST
    Now I just have to stay up another hour to see this.

    Biden's now leads by more than 1000 (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:31:10 AM EST
    I think part of the problem (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 05:32:02 AM EST
    might be polling a personality cult

    Politico: "It wasn't just the public polls that suggested Tuesday would be a big Democratic night. Much of the private polling on which both parties rely suggested Biden would win solidly, and they expected Democrats to benefit down the ballot."

    "Now that it hasn't happened, pollsters are wondering whether their methods are fundamentally broken -- or just unable to measure Trump's support, specifically."

    Working (none / 0) (#37)
    by FlJoe on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:40:15 AM EST
    on a couple of theories.
    First it's long my opinion that there is a lot of self selection in respondents, the political savvy are more likely to take polls than the political ignorant. The tuned in people of course saw the daily carnage from tRump that the bubble people did not.

    Secondly, the results show a stark difference between  rural vs. suburban/urban voters. Most national polls I worked on made little or no attempt to ensure the rural count was properly represented. The state polls tried to be more granular with targets by county but the sample size was ridiculously small and hardly representative even if the quotas were hit.  


    If things go the way it seems they will (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:59:14 AM EST
    Biden will win with 306 to 232.  The mirror image if Trumps YUGE HISTORIC win in 16.

    I do think the polling issues (none / 0) (#53)
    by MKS on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 09:01:24 AM EST
    may be unique to Trump.   The polls were pretty good in 2018.

    I think Trump is just someone who is hard to poll.


    Best description (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:20:08 PM EST
    I have heard about polling and it more or less backs up what you are saying is that it's kind of a reverse Bradley effect going on where people don't want to admit to pollsters they are voting for white supremacy.

    Whatever (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:31:44 AM EST
    Maggie Haberman: "People close to the president question whether he will invite Biden to the WH before inauguration. Or if he'll go to the inauguration himself. He does not care about the norms of the office."

    "But no one I have talked to thinks he will refuse to leave."

    MAGA Maggie (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 01:18:03 PM EST
    just can't quit. Like anybody cares what Trump does w/r/t Biden. Frankly I don't expect him to do anything typical.

    That was my reaction, too. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 12:47:10 PM EST
    The brand of access journalism practiced by Maggie Haberman and Bob Woodward can sometimes pose big problems for the 4th Estate. If its practitioners get too chummy with their subjects, that often distorts each other's perspectives at critical moments. They risk getting swept up by their own storylines.

    While watching Woodward being interviewed this summer about his book, I had the sense that he sometimes failed to fully grasp the potential consequences of his own otherwise spectacular scoops about the Trump White House, particularly about coronavirus. What he saw and characterized as merely par for the course in this latest iteration of the West Wing, actually shocked and horrified many viewers and readers.



    Trump is (none / 0) (#133)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:30:44 PM EST
    threatening to not leave the white house

    according to (none / 0) (#134)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 06:32:05 PM EST
    The President Show... (none / 0) (#153)
    by desertswine on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:16:57 PM EST
    I Don't Wanna Go! - go to about 4:10.

    Mark Meadows, (none / 0) (#152)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 06, 2020 at 10:11:14 PM EST
    Trump's chief of staff proves that the WH can't control the virus as he tests positive for Corona Virus.

    Something I think might work for us (none / 0) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 07:36:26 AM EST
    in the GA senate races and beyond to 2022 is that I suspect many Trump voters, like many Obama voters, will only show up for Trump.

    Seeing him slink away in humiliation will leave them discouraged and disillusioned.  They turned out on record numbers and they still lost.

    Let's hope so.

    We are fired up (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 08:01:33 AM EST
    here in GA to take out the insider trading twins. It will be interesting to see exactly what happens with the Trumpers here in Ga. You're not going to get them to show up over the supreme court. I don't know what is going to motivate them other than fear of "the other".

    The Lincoln Project is helping here in GA too.


    I think blue voters in GA (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 08:24:49 AM EST
    are going to be fired up because they are coming off a historic win.  A big win is a great motivator.  Look what we can do when we vote.  Rather the opposite for Trump supporters.

    Inside Trader Barbie is goin down IMO

    Perdue might just go down too.


    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 11:08:14 AM EST
    even cons don't like inside trader barbie. And Perdue couldn't top 50 with trump on the ticket

    The networks are taking a lot of incoming (none / 0) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 08:41:15 AM EST
    for not calling PA (some others but mostly PA).  From all sides and red and blue.  

    It is total BS.  They are increasing the danger of unrest.

    They better f'ing make a call today.   Otherwise Biden should declare victory and let them keep pi$$ing around.

    Politico (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 08:55:40 AM EST
    What the heck are the decision desks doing?

    Few people expected the election to be called on election night, given the deluge of mail-in ballots to be counted.

    But lots of people expected it to be called by now.

    By Friday, the Associated Press and TV networks who make projections were coming under intense pressure to call Pennsylvania -- or in the case of Fox and the AP, Nevada -- to put Biden over the top.

    In Nevada, after another batch of ballots in heavily Democratic Clark County expanded Biden's lead in the state, Jon Ralston, the editor of The Nevada Independent and a widely respected expert on Nevada politics, wrote on Twitter, "It is over."

    FiveThirtyEight's Nate Silver said, "I don't know, but it sure seems to me like not calling the race when the outcome is obvious in states like PA and NV gives the president more time to spout misinformation." And Neera Tanden, the longtime Clinton adviser and president of the Center for American Progress, lamented, "This is how Trump has worked the refs for 4 yrs -- and we seeing it again with not calling this race."



    Just announced (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 09:01:34 AM EST
    They are saying an outdoor rally tonight.

    Hope it's what I just said.  If the networks are still splitting hairs he should just declare victory and talk about what next.

    I'll be very surprised if PA is not called before that rally.


    What the heck are the decision desks doing? (none / 0) (#164)
    by jmacWA on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 09:13:49 AM EST
    IMO, they are simply cowed by 40+ years of GOP screaming about media bias towards the Democrats.  The Major Media outlets are as fooled by the screaming as the portion of the electorate that refuses to see that the GOP is not doing anything for them.

    Yes, the (none / 0) (#163)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 09:02:28 AM EST
    networks' lines are getting pretty stale.  Yesterday, we were on the "brink", this morning we are on the "cusp".   The MSNBC team is repeating themselves, nothing to say. They have even gone to commenting that Steve Kornacki wears the same clothes every day.  NYTimes front page is all about Biden's lead continues to grow, etc.  

    But, they just can't get the words "Biden Won" out.. The horse race ratings gig is surely on the wane, leaving the spectre of being frightened.


    Scarborough (none / 0) (#166)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 09:22:21 AM EST
    Has spent the last 2 hours hammering all the networks about PA.

    I have always wondered (none / 0) (#165)
    by leap on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 09:19:11 AM EST
    why is it that the gd networks are the "officials" calling election outcomes? What/who gives them that ultimate authority?

    Finally (none / 0) (#173)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 10:48:01 AM EST
    Timely excerpt (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 11:37:00 AM EST
    I will not rest..... (none / 0) (#179)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 12:05:39 PM EST
    ....... until the American People have the honest vote count they deserve.

    Ok, good.  That can be your job!

    We all know why Joe Biden is rushing to falsely pose as the winner, and why his media allies are trying so hard to help him: they don't want the truth to be exposed. The simple fact is this election is far from over. Joe Biden has not been certified as the winner of any states, let alone any of the highly contested states headed for mandatory recounts, or states where our campaign has valid and legitimate legal challenges that could determine the ultimate victor. In Pennsylvania, for example, our legal observers were not permitted meaningful access to watch the counting process. Legal votes decide who is president, not the news media.

    Beginning Monday, our campaign will start prosecuting our case in court to ensure election laws are fully upheld and the rightful winner is seated. The American People are entitled to an honest election: that means counting all legal ballots, and not counting any illegal ballots. This is the only way to ensure the public has full confidence in our election. It remains shocking that the Biden campaign refuses to agree with this basic principle and wants ballots counted even if they are fraudulent, manufactured, or cast by ineligible or deceased voters. Only a party engaged in wrongdoing would unlawfully keep observers out of the count room - and then fight in court to block their access.

    So what is Biden hiding? I will not rest until the American People have the honest vote count they deserve and that Democracy demands.

    The fact of the matter is: B/S (none / 0) (#181)
    by Peter G on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 12:17:56 PM EST
    "In Pennsylvania, for example, our legal observers were not permitted meaningful access to watch the counting process. ... Only a party engaged in wrongdoing would unlawfully keep observers out of the count room - and then fight in court to block their access." The truth is that observers (in equal number from both parties, which at all times have been treated equally) have never been excluded from the large, wide-open Convention Center room where the mail-in votes are being counted in Philadelphia. The only issue has been requiring observers to wear masks and remain at least six feet away from the workers trying to open and count the ballots. The City is also live-streaming the counting process, btw. They've got nuthin'.

    Rachel was talking about this earlier (none / 0) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 01:52:02 PM EST
    before the election the idea Trump would refuse to accept the results seemed scary.  

    Now he is doing exactly what he threatened to do but it just seems laughable and pathetic.


    Listen to Joe Scarborough on the radio. (none / 0) (#183)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 01:11:14 PM EST
    Oh I wish you would stop talking. It's all about how Mitch McConnell is still going to be running everything

    You Mean What he Said Isn't So? (none / 0) (#184)
    by RickyJim on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 01:27:49 PM EST
    Private citizens get banned from Twitter (none / 0) (#190)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 08:09:18 PM EST
    Wouldn't that (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 07, 2020 at 08:23:26 PM EST
    be lovely. A  world devoid of Trump twitters.  

    RIP Alex Trebek (none / 0) (#204)
    by McBain on Wed Nov 11, 2020 at 04:29:41 PM EST
    Alex Trebek, the genial "Jeopardy!" host with all the answers and a reassuring presence in the TV game-show landscape for five decades, has died. He was 80 years old.