Jeffrey Epstein Death: Outrage at BOP and Pretrial Detention System

I am simply outraged that Jeffrey Epstein died at a federal detention center in New York.

I will have a lot more to say, but for now, I will just say:

1. Jeffrey Epstein should never have been detained without bond. He was not a flight risk. He had not posed a danger to the community in years. The wealthy do not deserve to be treated more harshly than the poor. The accusers' position on bond should have been taken with a great grain of salt. An indictment is merely an accusation, it is not evidence.

2. Jeffrey Epstein should have been on a 24 hour watch. I would like to see the unit and activity logs for the staff. I have not yet read enough to know if I believe he committed suicide or someone killed him. Either was entirely avoidable.

3. It will disgusting to watch his accusers and their lawyers fight over his carcass to obtain whatever funds he had left that they believe they are due even though almost all of them already collected as a result of the Florida state case. Epstein not only paid them damages, he paid their lawyers' fees.

4. Shame on the Bureau of Prisons. R.I.P. Jeffrey Epstein.

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    Let's give a big shout out to ... (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 02:17:19 AM EST
    ... U.S. Attorney General William Barr, BOP Acting Administrator Hugh Hurwitz, MCCNY Warden Shirley Skipper-Scott and the staff at the federal Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan for having enabled yet another round of bat guano-crazy discourse in our increasingly toxic political culture.

    And in between rounds at Club Muy Blanco in New Jersey, President No. 2 For Brains managed to retweet conspiracy theories accusing Bill and Hillary Clinton of murder.

    Now, you'll get no sympathy from this particular quarter for the odious Jeffrey Epstein who, after all, was a registered sex offender that preyed on adolescent girls, and was likely the master of his own ultimate fate here.

    But I certainly agree with you that the people in charge have an awful lot of questions to answer as to why MCCNY's most high-profile prisoner -- who was alleged to have already attempted suicide three weeks ago -- was apparently not on suicide watch, and how he managed to hang himself in one of the country's most secure and thoroughly surveilled facilities without anyone noticing.

    At the very least, this is a huge black eye for the U.S. Dept. of Justice.


    Black eye (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 06:30:28 AM EST
    For a justice department that already looks like Rocky Balboa after 15 rounds.

    No, don't (none / 0) (#9)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 10:38:50 AM EST
    bring Rocky Balboa into this.

    Barr and his stooges have nothing in common with Rocky.


    My imperfect analogy (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 11:20:05 AM EST
    Was not meant to see Barr and his stooges as the justice department but that I would like to maybe naively think there are still people in the justice department who who like to just do there jobs.

    Got to be some (none / 0) (#14)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 11:53:32 AM EST
    Saturday NYT excerpt: (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 04:40:39 PM EST
    Robert Gangi, an expert on prisons and the former executive director of the Correctional Association of New York, said guards also generally take shoelaces and belts away from people on suicide watch. "It's virtually impossible to kill yourself," Mr. Gangi said.

    Inmates can only be removed from the watch when the program coordinator, who is generally the chief psychologist at the facility, deems they are no longer at imminent risk for suicide, according a 2007 Bureau of Prison document outlining suicide prevention policies. The inmates cannot be removed from the watch without a face-to-face psychological evaluation.

    To take an inmate off suicide watch, a "post-watch report" needs to be completed, which includes an analysis of how the inmate's circumstances have changed and why that merits removal from the watch, the document said.

    I would like to know (none / 0) (#42)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 11:59:22 AM EST
    (and I would hope some reporter would ask) how many federal prisoners have died in BOP custody in the last 12 months, and from what causes. How many fatal illnesses, how many of old age/natural causes, how many accidents, how many inmate-on-inmate murders, how many died after use of force by staff, and how many suicides. Just according to their own "investigative records."  It's not like Epstein is the first prisoner suicide. (Not to mention the many more in state and county, not federal custody.)

    I agree, (none / 0) (#45)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 01:39:27 PM EST
    this is important information that should be made available. But, I believe that concern for the universal should not elide the specific. Given the high profile of the Epstein case (trafficking girls for sex, clouded money sources, and possible involvement of high rollers and notables), an investigative focus is necessary.  It may be too convenient for the likes of Barr to subordinate the case to broader issues of long-standing prison injustices and needed changes.

    These tabulations are likely available. (none / 0) (#54)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 10:28:10 PM EST
    I'd like to see documentation as to whether release of Epstein from suicide watch complied with current federal regulations.

    From what I have read (none / 0) (#64)
    by ragebot on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 05:31:51 PM EST
    not everyone agrees that the data you asked for is available from an  accurate source.  Suicide is the leading cause of death for those prison, but it is not always possible to determine if the cause of a death is suicide or 'assisted suicide' or simply that the person was killed.

    The MCC has a good record (at least on paper) with only one suicide on record for several years before the Epstein incident.  But it really seems to be a horrible place with terrible conditions; not to mention being understaffed.

    Judith Miller had an interesting opinion piece based on her experience in prison claiming it is 'almost impossible' to kill yourself in prison.  Even with my very limited experience in county jail I was also under the impression there were a lot of eyes on me.  Every hour a guard would walk past the bay where my cell was dragging a billy club across the bars.  A couple of times he shined his flashlight on prisoners who were sitting up in their bunks and not asleep.

    I have seen plenty of talking heads saying Epstein should have been in a cell with paper sheets to eliminate any possibility of hanging and with a bed that had no way to tie a sheet to it.  Whether it was incompetence or something more sinister what ever happened to Epstein at the MCC was well out of the normal way things are done.


    We had (none / 0) (#65)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 08:20:46 PM EST
    an incident here where a boy raped and killed a child. He was in the county jail and within a week he committed suicide. So it's not "impossible" to commit suicide. Whatever happened here Barr's head should be in the chopping block since he is the one responsible for this situation and refused to recuse himself on the case.

    Judith Miller.... (none / 0) (#66)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 10:29:17 PM EST
    there's a reference.

    Judith (none / 0) (#73)
    by ragebot on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 12:15:25 AM EST
    Miller was writing based on her experience of being a prisoner in a federal pen.

    From the latest updates I have seen the two jailers were asleep when this happened; something I doubt happened when Miller was a prison.  Not to mention there have been multiple stories about the MCC being poorly run.

    To some extent the Second District may be to blame for insisting on holding Epstein in what they knew was a second rate prison.  Not to mention that as Jeralyn has mentioned there is good reason to think he should have been granted bail.


    Just to help you get up to speed (none / 0) (#71)
    by ragebot on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 12:06:55 AM EST
    There are huge differences between a "county jail" and a "federal prison".  The former confines persons accused of local or state crimes while the later deals with federal crimes.  As a rule those charged with federal crimes are more high profile and as a result get more attention by their jailers.

    Lets also keep in mind that this case was brought by the Second District, a place that is well known to be an unruly district in the DOJ system.  It would be interesting to see just what involvement Barr had in this case.  Both the warden and the two jailers who seemed to be asleep on the job were there well before Barr was confirmed as AG and I doubt he even knew their names before Epstein's death.

    I have not seen anyone claim Barr had anything to do with the warden taking Epstein off suicide watch and there is no way Barr could know the two jailers were asleep on the job.

    I am not really a fan of Barr for several reasons but your mindless accusations of blaming him for everything dilute the real mistakes he has made.


    William Barr's not culpable personally. (none / 0) (#75)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 01:44:31 AM EST
    But he is responsible administratively in his capacity as U.S. Attorney General, given that the undermanned U.S. Bureau of Prisons is a subordinate agency of the Dept. of Justice.

    You are the one (none / 0) (#76)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 04:53:32 AM EST
    that was using the county jail as an example of "even in a county jail". I never said they were the same.

    The problem here with Barr is he stated he wanted to manage the case. He should have taken himself off of the case due to nothing more than the fact that he has a 40 year association with Epstein. It was his responsibility to make sure that policies were being followed as AG.

    Look, I would agree with most of what you are saying if:

    1. Barr hadn't been asked publicly to recuse himself from the case and
    2. Barr very publicly said he wanted to manage the case.

    Hillary Clinton is obviously (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 11:23:00 AM EST
    an effing awesome effing ninja! AWE-SOME! In and out of MCC. Unseen. Snapped his neck silently and slipped out, again, completely unseen. My wife has a list. Is Ninja Hillary available for contracts?


    Late rumor (none / 0) (#94)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 01:59:24 PM EST
    While the medical examiner was on lunch break, Epstein cremated himself.

    Can't say I agree with all of that (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 10, 2019 at 09:27:18 PM EST
    But I agree he should have been on suicide watch.  I saw a guy on cable news who supposedly worked/works (not sure) for the BOP.  He said round the clock suicide watch never lasts more than a few days.  

    Even if that's true it seems to me this case should have been an exception.

    I'm surprised so little information has been released about exactly how he managed to kill himself, if he did kill himself.  The one thing we know is that the only hope he had of not going away forever was to give up some really important people.

    I'm thinkin he did not kill himself.

    I am not sure if (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 10:37:21 AM EST
    I agree with all of that, either.

    But, I like the fact that there are principled people who do believe as does J.  Makes me feel better about life and people in general.


    I disagree in part. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 02:30:16 AM EST
    I believe Jeffrey Epstein killed himself and further, I suspect the people in charge at MCCNY -- where he was being held --knew he was a suicide risk and did little or nothing to discourage him. And also for some reason, I'm reminded of that jailhouse scene in The Godfather, Part II in which Tom Hagen assures Frankie "Five Angels" Pentangeli that his family will be cared for.

    I agree it's equally possible (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 06:38:59 AM EST
    He was allowed to do it himself.  

    No details. (none / 0) (#7)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 10:07:11 AM EST
    In a lengthy article, the NYTimes (Sunday, August 11) the crux of the story is reported as: "Mr. Epstein hanged himself and was found at around 6:30 am Saturday at the Metropolitan Correction Center, officials said."

    Curious that additional information was not immediately available, knowing the public glare on the case---not only the sex trafficking, the unknown sources of his vast wealth, but also, the prominent persons alleged to be involved.

    Fuel for the inevitable conspiracies.

    I just heard (none / 0) (#11)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 11:23:45 AM EST
    The person who was supposed to check on him was for some reason not doing it.  And also that taking him off suicide watch was also against policy.

    The article is behind a pay wall.


    Yeah, (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 11:37:40 AM EST
    I heard that too. The person was supposed to check every 30 minutes and did not. I guess you could get all conspiratorial about that. Was he in solitary still?

    He was alone (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 11:47:53 AM EST
    His cellmate was out. (none / 0) (#56)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 10:31:29 PM EST
    The DOJ, at this point, (none / 0) (#15)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 11:53:44 AM EST
    Is Barr. Investigations, no matter how honest and thorough, will be subject to release by Barr.  Redactions to protect privacy.  And, a four-page summary, at best, by Barr.  There is no basis to engender confidence.  With Trump and Republicans possibly in the mix, Barr will be in full Roy Cohn mode.

    It seems, to me, the most plausible conclusion, is orchestrated malign neglect.  Based on what we now know---which is what we will, likely, ultimately know.

    This (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 12:22:17 PM EST
    "No. I mean, everything about this, Joy, is so odd," Leoning remarked. "The July 23rd incident is a red flag. The fact he was in a cell with a roommate who is about four times his size and is an accused -- a former police officer who's accused of killing four people -- the fact that was his roommate is also odd."

    Roomate.. (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:04:27 PM EST
    Odd isn't the word for it. "Chomos" are automatic dead meat in prison. Everybody knows this. Somebody will kill, maim, or permanently disfigure them if they're not placed in protective custody.

    To put Epstein in with a guy like that, after deliberation, can only mean someone thought the best course was to save the expense and some later possible damaging or embarrassing revelations.

    I'm going to guess Epstein's cell mate's family may have a sudden windfall, considering that Epstein got out of there relatively unscathed considering the circumstances.


    It's being reported (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:05:56 PM EST
    Ok, by the NY Post, that Barr made a secret visit to the facility just before that assault.

    Rawstory (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:11:30 PM EST
    A New York Post report on Sunday hinted that Attorney General Bill Barr may have visited the prison where Jeffrey Epstein was being held before he allegedly committed suicide.

    Lewis Kasman, a former mobster and top associated of John Gotti Sr., told the Post that Barr made a secret visit to Metropolitan Correctional Center two weeks ago "about the time Epstein was found in his cell with bruises around his neck."

    Mebbe (none / 0) (#21)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:30:22 PM EST
    But Kasman was the rat who turned on Gotti....sounds a little too pat....

    This assertion should be easily proved or disproved.....


    So much of this (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:32:40 PM EST
    Would seem to be easily proved or disproved

    It will be most interesting to se how easy it actually is.


    The Clinton's reach (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:47:19 PM EST
    is long and their designs and methods inscrutable. Like that Napoleon of crime Professor Moriarty. /s

    One thing being rumored (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:13:04 PM EST
    Is that Epstein used his own money to pay to "not be observed"

    So weird it's kind of believable.


    I actually (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:45:56 PM EST
    can see that. I understand it's pretty easy to pay off guards in prison and get what you want.

    The DOJ will (none / 0) (#22)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:31:14 PM EST
    have no credibility.

    Sounds like another Committee in the House should investigate....


    Good call (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 01:35:38 PM EST
    Trump was sweating (none / 0) (#27)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 02:04:13 PM EST
    profusely on Friday.  

    Was that not (none / 0) (#28)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 02:16:21 PM EST
     so icky?

    Kellyann will say (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 02:35:02 PM EST
    it's just more proof Trump succeeds by the sweat of his brow, the way millions of hard-working Americans do

    Yes, (none / 0) (#36)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 08:54:29 PM EST
    nervous about the weekend?

    Humidity (none / 0) (#37)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 09:00:38 PM EST
    causing his (orange) makeup to run?

    NBC News Article (none / 0) (#30)
    by hardindr on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 03:07:07 PM EST
    This NBC News article has former FOB employees giving conflicting information as to whether or not it was SOP for Epstein to be taken off suicide watch. It also notes that the prison guard union had complained about staffing at the prison where Epstein was found dead.

    According to the Associated Press, ... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 06:08:38 PM EST
    ... on the night of Epstein's suicide, one guard in that particular unit was working a fifth straight day of overtime and another guard was working mandatory overtime, because MCCNY is apparently suffering from a chronic staffing shortage.

    Not conclusively suicide (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 06:42:55 PM EST
    The New York medical examiner conducted on the death of Jeffrey Epstein. According to the information providing, the examiner needs "further information" before being able to determine the ultimate result.

    "Today, a medical examiner performed the autopsy of Jeffrey Epstein. The ME's determination is pending further information at this time," Chief Medical Examiner Dr. Barbara Sampson said in a statement released to the press.

    The Epstein estate has hired celebrity pathologist Michael Baden to do their own autopsy.

    Not conclusive (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 06:51:20 PM EST
    Was my interpretation of that.

    Am I right?


    I wouldn't put it that way. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 09:01:38 PM EST
    To me, "inconclusive" suggests that the investigation is complete, and yet it turned out not to be possible to draw a firm conclusion. "We need further information" suggests that the M.E. believes that this further information is available (in the BOP, presumably) and is expected to be provided before they express their official opinion on the manner of death. ("Cause of death" is presumably asphyxiation by hanging. "Manner of death" means accident, illness, old age/natural causes, homicide or suicide, etc.

    Thanks (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 09:41:47 PM EST
    Perhaps awaiting toxicology results and any DNA (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 10:30:47 PM EST

    Either way (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 11, 2019 at 07:55:32 PM EST
    Jeffrey Epstein's reputation has taken a pummeling he won't soon recover from

    As coroner I must aver, (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by desertswine on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 02:15:30 AM EST
    I thoroughly examined her,
    And she's not only merely dead,
    She's really most sincerely dead.

    Barr (none / 0) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 11:00:05 AM EST
    Seems rather desperate to make a public show of how outraged he is.

    He's appalled, (none / 0) (#43)
    by desertswine on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 12:33:44 PM EST
    appalled, I tell you, at the "serious irregularities," in his best Captain Renault voice.  

    Yes, and Barr vowed (none / 0) (#44)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 01:18:02 PM EST
    to "get to the bottom of this".   "And, there will be accountability."   ...."any co-conspirators should not rest easy."

    He sure sounds troubled.


    In other words (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 02:01:19 PM EST
    when Fox gets to the bottom of it, they'll issue a full report to Barr and the orange boy-king.

    Probably something involving suspicious behavior on the part of a corrections officer who voted for Hillary and Obama.


    Great point (none / 0) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 02:24:41 PM EST
    There is going to be a patsy.  We should expect that very soon.

    Do you think (none / 0) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 03:51:00 PM EST
    the Assistant-to-the Assistant Warden is too high up?

    No problem (none / 0) (#52)
    by FlJoe on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 04:46:45 PM EST
    if he's a Democrat.

    Yes (none / 0) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 05:06:11 PM EST
    and this makes me think Republicans are going to be in trouble. He's trying to deflect.

    The plot sickens... (none / 0) (#72)
    by desertswine on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 12:06:58 AM EST
    An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

    Among the bones broken in Epstein's neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam's apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

    Wash. Post


    An investigation with full translucency. (none / 0) (#47)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 02:18:55 PM EST
    Epstein was alone in a cell, 11 days after being taken off suicide watch. He was to be checked by two guards every 30 minutes.  He tried to commit suicide three weeks earlier (how and by what means? What steps were taken to prevent a repeat?).  He was found dead in his cell at 6:30 am last Saturday.(some reports said he died in the hospital).

    Six days after his suicide attempt, he was taken off 24-hour suicide watch, determined to no longer be a threat to his own life. His depression apparently cleared up, sort of like a case of the flu...a few bad days and you are OK again.

    Prison protocols went by the board. Epstein's cell mate was transferred; the guards did not check; monitoring, apparently, is usually discontinued after just a few days in those cases where inmates get bad news (e.g. unfavorable court decisions, death of loved ones), but not so quickly after a suicide attempt. Some reports say there were no surveillance cameras in his cell.

    The NYC Chief Medical Examiner concluded the autopsy but declined to release a determination about the cause of death.  However, she was "confident" the cause of death is suicide by hanging, but wants more information from law enforcement before releasing her determination. Apparently, wanting to be super confident. Will her report indicate by what means Epstein hanged himself?

    Barr is on it.  But, his Boss, through his retweet, is another Jessica Fletcher. The Clintons did it. Probably planning it out of the basement of that basement-less pizza parlor. In saner times, Trump's madness would be an article of impeachment.

    Odd factoid (none / 0) (#49)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 03:26:35 PM EST
    Has anybody pointed out that Epstein-Barr is a herpesvirus that causes mononucleosis?

    Yes, folks, Epstein-Barr is an infectious disease.

    Yes, and unlike (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 12, 2019 at 04:32:19 PM EST
    Jeffrey Epstein and William Barr, Professor Michael Epstein (1921, University of Bristol) and Professor Yvonne Barr (1932-2016, University of London) contributed to the public good through their electron microscopic research that identified the virus.

    Mono is often referred to as "the kissing disease", since the virus spreads through body fluids, primarily saliva. However, it also increases the genetic risk to develop other auto-immune diseases such as lupus, rheumatoid arthritis and inflammatory bowel disease. Also, the virus is associated with lymphoma.


    Agree with all of it, except... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 08:41:44 AM EST
    ..R.I.P. That is reserved for people who aren't sociopathic sexual abusers of children. But maybe I'm just a biased adult survivor of child abuse. I dunno. Peace to all.

    who had the most to gain (none / 0) (#58)
    by thomas rogan on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 10:06:28 AM EST
    Who had the most to gain from Epstein's death?  It sure wasn't the DOJ.  Someone most likely bribed low level jail guards to not watch him.  

    Well, (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 04:22:32 PM EST
    so far it seems that Trump had the most to lose.

    Though him dying probably changes not much other than he will never face his accusers and there are going to be a lot of civil suits.

    Interesting that he was doing his banking with Deutsch Bank the same as Trump.


    Barr's crack investigation cracks down: (none / 0) (#63)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 04:57:17 PM EST
    Warden, temporarily reassigned; two guards on leave. One of the guards on duty that night was not a regular corrections officer--rather a fill-in.

    4chan, the white supremacist message board posted the news of Epstein's death 30 minutes before made public.  The NYFD says it was not one of its first responders.


    The fact (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 14, 2019 at 10:07:17 AM EST
    that those girls were sex slaved out of Mar A Lago leaves Trump incredibly vulnerable on this issue. The fact that he keeps pushing Clinton conspiracy theories makes me think he is as guilty as all heck.

    I think (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 10:21:41 AM EST
    You had the most to gain

    Why Are You Convinced (none / 0) (#60)
    by RickyJim on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 02:17:25 PM EST
    that Epstein was the one who decided, perhaps wrongly, that suicide was his best course of action?

    So, the DOJ (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 13, 2019 at 03:08:55 PM EST
    prioritized keeping Epstein alive and intact, but it didn't help because they're a bunch of incompetent f*ck-ups.

    Is that what you're suggesting, Mr Rogan?

    I think it is. Sad!


    who had most to gain (none / 0) (#87)
    by thomas rogan on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 04:47:14 PM EST
    It is easy to bribe low level workers in any organization to look the other way.  No criminal offense, merely getting fired.  I think the workers who were suspended will likely end up being well taken care of for the rest of their lives and will comfortably and quietly retire in Florida, Nevada, Brazil, or some such place.    

    Let's try again (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 08:23:52 PM EST
    Assuming there is anything to your conspiracy theory it seems at least as likely to me they end up face down in a ditch in Florida, Nevada, Brazil or some such place.

    Why on earth would they leave such dangerous loose ends.


    Hole in your theory (none / 0) (#92)
    by Yman on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 07:00:35 AM EST
    You think Trump's gonna have that much money left when he finishes up with all the lawsuits and his businesses are no longer bringing in foreign $?

    Bunch of incompetent F ups. (none / 0) (#96)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 02:15:28 PM EST
    Passes the Ocam's razor test.

    Do you think that the guys on night shift are the brightest and the best?  Fat chance.


    Incompetence (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by FlJoe on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 02:47:32 PM EST
    and staffing is endemic the system and Barr knew it
    Back in April, Barr called staffing shortages in prisons "a SNAFU." Now, having been warned and having acknowledged the problem, he's claiming some of the same problems were not regular, but instead severely irregular, and he's blaming the people on the front lines rather than those in charge of the "SNAFU."

    Incompetence can be overcome, at least temporarily, with edicts from the boss. It's baffling that Barr and others did not lay down the law on this super high profile prisoner, especially after the first incident.


    Ther had been no suicides (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by smott on Wed Aug 21, 2019 at 11:47:05 AM EST
    At MCC since 1998

    Epstein was a direct threat to lots of hugely powerful men. Narcissist suicide is unusual.
    He claimed he was attacked on July 23rd in the incident the media credulously labeled suicide even though there had been no official report on it, and Tmk there is still none.
    He was having young females spend the day w him as legal counsel (paying his legal team for 8 hrs daily consult just to get out of his cell.)
    His legal team called him cheerful and upbeat about beating the charges via double jeopardy.

    I'm not nearly ready to accept he was suicidal and this was only about incompetence.


    forgot (none / 0) (#98)
    by FlJoe on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 02:50:44 PM EST
    Corruption, (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by KeysDan on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 04:09:52 PM EST
    masquerading as incompetence.

    Barr (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 04:11:04 PM EST
    is ultimately responsible. And your link shows it. He was told of the problems and he took over management of the case instead of recusing.

    Killed in the library with a silver candlestick. (none / 0) (#68)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 14, 2019 at 10:14:03 AM EST
    Or, so the story might as well go.  The NYTimes reports that Epstein apparently hanged himself with a bedsheet, likely fastening the sheet to a top bunk and pitching himself forward.

    Though it is standard practice to house people who have recently been taken off suicide watch with another person, Epstein's cell mate was transferred out, not replaced,  leaving Epstein alone.

    The two guards in Epstein's housing unit falsely recorded that they had checked in on him every half-hour as required. And, both guards, simultaneously, were sleeping and did not look in on Epstein for three hours before he was found.

    One of the two guards was not a regular correctional officer, but a prison employee pressed into service.

    Prison union leaders said it was egregious  that they transferred the warden but put the guards on leave. The warden made the call to take Epstein off suicide watch. Bedsheets are no provided while on suicide watch.

    The autopsy report has not yet been made available.

    Well (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 14, 2019 at 12:15:18 PM EST
    this is all on Barr's head. He was managing the case.

    The question (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Towanda on Wed Aug 14, 2019 at 06:37:11 PM EST
    about the staff not checking on Epstein every half-hour, as required in that area, and about staff faking the log is this:

    Did staff also not check on other prisoners in that area and fake the log on other prisoners in that area?

    Was it incompetence (if owing to understaffing, overwork, etc.) in general?

    If not, if it was only Epstein, it wasn't incompetence. . . .

    But I doubt that we ever will get the answer to that question..


    Well, if the staff was asleep, (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 10:53:04 AM EST
    as has been averred, then the staff were also not checking on the other prisoners in the area and were also faking the log on those prisoners.

    FOIA requests probably pouring in. (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 17, 2019 at 06:27:21 PM EST
    Work it may, but shine it must. (none / 0) (#95)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 02:07:56 PM EST
    In this environment the logs must show compliance. The naval term for this is gundecking or radioing.

    As a very junior swabby I recall initialing daily maintenance cards for dates before I was even in the service.


    Prelim autopsy findings (none / 0) (#74)
    by ragebot on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 12:27:59 AM EST
    Epstein had broken bones in his neck.  While not dispositive this is more associated with strangulation than hanging.  Several studies have had widely divergent data but the key blurb from this link.

    Among the bones broken in Epstein's neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam's apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

    I would think (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 04:55:04 AM EST
    there would be other signs besides a broken hyoid bone if he was strangled.

    Maybe (none / 0) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 07:09:48 AM EST
    The hyoid bone fracture is a very rare fracture of the hyoid bone, accounting for 0.002% of all fractures in humans. It is commonly associated with strangulation and rarely occurs in isolation. The fracture may be associated with gunshot injury, car accidents or induced vomiting. In 50% of strangulations and 27% of hangings, hyoid fractures occur.

    The main symptoms of a hyoid bone fracture include pain when the affected person rotates their neck, trouble swallowing (dysphagia), and painful swallowing (odynophagia). Other symptoms can be crepitus or tenderness over the bone, suffocation when sticking out the tongue, dyspnea, dysphonia, and subcutaneous emphysema. On laryngoscope examination, lacerations on the pharynx, bruises, swelling, and/or hyoid bone fragments can be seen. If the hyoid bone is fractured, there is a high likelihood that the larynx, pharynx, mandible, and/or cervical spine may be injured as well. Common co-occurring injuries include Le Fort III fractures, mandibular or cervical vertebra fractures, and mandibular dislocation.[1]

    Carol Leonning just said (none / 0) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 09:06:27 AM EST
    The decision to nap make a decision before was because of the hyoid fracture.

    I understand that (none / 0) (#80)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 09:52:36 AM EST
    but I also understand that the hyoid bone snapping in suicide in older men is not all that uncommon. There is probably going to be toxicology which might tell something and then there also would be marks on his neck from strangulation if that is what happened.  

    would be significantly different from marks from hanging.

    Autopsy conclusions are (none / 0) (#85)
    by KeysDan on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 02:20:50 PM EST
    pending (except for Trump, who has solved the mystery with his retweeting of the culprits).

     There may not have been foul play, other than those "irregularities" pronounced by the US Attorney General, but there is a need for more, and integrated, information. And, even then we might not be that much further ahead.

      The issue of comparative marks (hanging v strangulation) were not provided. Although, the marks may be a function of the manner of strangulation, from front, behind or crux of the elbow. Or, the arrangement of the bedsheet noose.

    Toxicology reports may be among additional factors to shed light, such as if Epstein had blood levels of somnifacient that would likely preclude hanging capabilities.


    For those of you who did not click on the link (none / 0) (#83)
    by ragebot on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 11:34:42 AM EST
    or comprehend the blurb which said "Among the bones broken was the hyoid bone" it needs to be noted there were multiple bones broken; as this blurb points out.

    An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein sustained multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

    There are too many unanswered questions and even answers like this one seem to be taking too long to be released.

    What were the other bones that were broken, were there bruises indicative of strangulation, were there other wounds/what ever.

    Why was his cell mate transferred just before this happened, why was he taken off suicide watch, and given his high profile as a prisoner why was he not given extra attention.

    As Jeralyn has noted in her OP a "normal" suspect would have been granted bail.  I also have questions about why the 2DNY was involved in this case and how high up in the DOJ the involvement went.  The Southern District of Florida was where the first case originated and most likely where most of Epstein's alleged crimes took place.

    Most folks are aware of the friction between 2DNY and main DOJ and I can't help but wonder if this was not more of a publicity stunt than a real investigation.

    There seems to be some indication that one or more of Epstein's underlings who procured girls for him has turned on him.  I would love to know just how and when this happened; and more to the point who convinced them to turn.


    Yeah (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 01:06:40 PM EST
    This is at least mostly totally true

    You're seriously (none / 0) (#86)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 04:13:29 PM EST
    calling this a publicity stunt? After what went down with Acosta and Ken Starr the last time in Florida perhaps it is better to let SDNY handle this. One of the reasons for SDNY is the because the Trump crony there has recused himself on cases related to Trump.I believe the testimony against Epstein from his employees goes back to the original case in the early 2000's. Unless the person was a procurer I'm not sure how much help they could actually be other than they saw him with the girl. There was an interview with his Russian driver the other day and he certainly did not have much to say. He said he never saw any of the girls and only drove Epstein to business appointments.

    Ghislaine Has been found (none / 0) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 08:30:54 PM EST
    at In-And-Out Burger

    Which I have to admit makes me like her more.

    I seriously (none / 0) (#90)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 09:11:40 PM EST
    Lol ed at all the people that were claiming she was hiding in some secret location when that news came out.

    For some reason (none / 0) (#91)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 15, 2019 at 09:56:27 PM EST
    I imagine Ghislaine speaking like Maude Lebowski.

    Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey.


    So, it's said to be suicide. (none / 0) (#101)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 05:02:32 PM EST
    It's official.  The marks on his neck, it's said, look more like they were caused by fabric than by a rope.  But this sentence struck me -

    Epstein, 66, was found unconscious around 6:30 a.m. on Aug. 10 with a bedsheet around his neck

    Ok.  It was "around his neck".  Was he hanging from it?  Did he just strangle himself with it?  I admit I have not been breathlessly filling the details of this.

    Has it been said what he was hanged from?

    Were these (none / 0) (#102)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 06:08:22 PM EST
    released from Barr or directly from the medical examiner? I guess eventually we may find out the answers to your questions but not today.

    Supposedly these cells have nothing to hang yourself from though who knows if that is a fact or not.


    A most convenient suicide for (none / 0) (#103)
    by desertswine on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 09:56:19 PM EST
    everyone involved.  Except the victims.

    I think it was (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 16, 2019 at 11:16:37 PM EST
    Stalin's henchman Beria who said it takes an artist to arrange a suicide

    There never was (none / 0) (#105)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 17, 2019 at 02:59:56 PM EST
    much information about Epstein's July 23 (apparent) suicide attempt.  Just, that he was found on the floor of his cell with bruises on his neck and, then, placed on suicide watch for 12 days. And, then returned to the wing of the prison in which he had been housed before.

    The NYC medical examiner determined, after autopsy and a review of the unreleased investigative information, that the cause of Epstein's death was hanging and the manner was suicide.

    Unnamed officials indicate that Epstein appeared to have tied a bedsheet to "the top of a set of bunk beds, then knelt toward the floor with enough force that he broke several bones in his neck." Apparently, too, the bunkbeds were sturdy enough to sustain the force and not tip over.

    The autopsy showed that Epstein had a broken hyoid bone that could have been a sign of strangulation as well as suicide by hanging.  But, the medical examiner cautioned against drawing conclusions, saying the broken bones were consistent with hanging, especially in older men.

    Given the high profile case and ties to prominent people, including the president of the US, the circumstances and their handling are predictable grist for the conspiracy mill.  

    Moreover, the investigative information we do know is curious: cell mate transferred out the day before; both guards asleep at the switch, the required half-hourly monitoring was not carried out and records were falsied, Epstein's rapid recovery permitting removal from suicide watch (where there were no sheets or other materials that could be fashioned into a noose), and the unnecessarily cryptic reporting (e.g. or first attempt, bruises on his neck...how?, found unresponsive in cell, could have been stated: found unresponsive in cell with a bedsheet around his neck).

     It is almost as if time was needed to organize a story. But, as the medical examiner cautions, don't draw conclusions.


    "Some people say" Epstein's legal team (none / 0) (#106)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 17, 2019 at 06:24:06 PM EST
    requested he be taken off suicide watch. Conditions too onerous for him.  Lights on.  No bedsheets etc.

    And, Epstein wanted (none / 0) (#109)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 21, 2019 at 12:56:30 PM EST
    a new Will, which he effected two days before being found in his cell.  Being on suicide watch may not have fit that..being of sound mind and body part...jeopardizing its validity.