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Saturday Open Thread

It's too nice to stay indoors today. I didn't see much in the news, so I'm reading about Denver's growth spurt (there seems to be a crane on every corner in and around downtown, way too many -- I'd much rather they kept the parking lots), food (recipes and new local restaurants) and of course, Central and Latin America and Mexico.

What's on your agenda this weekend? If you've found something binge-worthy to watch, or something great to cook, please share.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Restored THE GOOD THE BAD AND (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 04:04:11 PM EST
    THE UGLY

    started 15 minutes ago on TCM

    So good (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 06:41:18 PM EST
    Watching the epic final scene you have to keep reminding yourself this was 1967.

    then I was thinking about what else was out there in 1967.  So I googled.  It was not a bad year for film.

    link

    Something else i saw yesterday Embrace of the Serpent

    Nominated for best foreign film 2016.  One I meant to see in a theater but I don't think it was ever local.  So beautiful.  It's on HULU and I'm currently watching everything I care about on HULU waiting for weekly episodes of Castle Rock.  Which is awsum.

    Parent

    Again (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 09:08:23 PM EST
    The ACLU lead attorney on the case to reunite the kids from the separated parents just gave an interview that was chilling yet a reminder of past U.S. abuses.   He said that many of the children who cannot be reunited, according to the government lawyers, are from Guatemala and speak an "indigenous" language.  So, that these kids are Mayans and speak a Mayan dialect makes them even more vulnerable.  

    The abuses of the Maya by the U.S. seemingly never cease.  

    Holy hell (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 05:20:19 PM EST
    The country is literally in flames

    I have vodka weed and fresh tomato juice.

    I am about to watch the latest episode of Castle Rock.

    Bye

    Mariia Butina (2.00 / 1) (#11)
    by linea on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:20:59 PM EST
    In my opinion, it's ridiculous that she is being held in a Federal prison without bail. I has been reported that she is being kept in solitary confinement. I read the criminal complaint and it seems to consist mostly of innuendo and insinuation.

    Mariia Butina, who is here legally on a visa, is accused of being involved with private U.S. groups that engage in lobbying and in the apparently sinister act of attending the National Prayer Breakfast. Some of the people she met might have known a politician. Dastardly!

    By the way, thousands of Mexican Nationals are involved with groups that engage in lobbying. By the ridiculous standard applied to this woman, they should all be arrested.

    If Russian Nationals in the US are now held to some 1950s Cold War standard for arrest then the US should issue them restricted visas and inform current visa holders that they aren't allowed to participate in social groups, lobbying groups, prayer breakfasts, or engage in discussions of politics.

    On Meet the Press: July 29, 2018 (@30:00) , the guy with the goatee exposes the stunning allegation that Mariia Butina `defended Russian interests during class discussions' at American University while she was getting her Masters Degree. They should have added that to the ridiculously thin criminal complaint.

    My opinion.


    Mariia Butina & the NRA (2.00 / 1) (#12)
    by linea on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:38:43 PM EST
    Mariia Butina is an actual gun-rights activist. She founded the `Right to Bear Arms' advocacy organization in Moscow and the organization promoted an initiative called `My Home Is My Fortress' and advocated for a broader legal definition of self-defense in Russia. Her project gathered more than 100,000 signatures as a Public Initiative but the Russian Interior and Justice ministries vetoed the project. Later, the organization was dissolved by Russian court order for violating the `public associations' law and the group's website was shut down.

    Parent
    The New Republic 2012 (none / 0) (#25)
    by linea on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 07:16:25 PM EST
    The Rise of Russia's Gun Nuts
    By JULIA IOFFE
    November 15, 2012

    To anyone bothering to do the most basic research, it is apparent she has been in the media spotlight for over six years and it should be obvious to any non-delusional person that she isn't a secret-agent operative spying on America. Again, the ridiculous FederalLaw they charged her under could be applied to thousands of Mexican Nationals.

    Parent

    Keep trying (4.43 / 7) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 07:18:43 PM EST
    Someone might argue with you if you just keep trying.

    Parent
    It's a good topic (none / 0) (#27)
    by linea on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 07:39:18 PM EST
    I'm putting forth my position not starting an argument.

    But I've already been DOWN-VOTED by someone who obviously hasn't read the criminal complaint or bothered to do any research on the issue at all. That's at least a heckling, if not an argument.

    Silly me. I'm posting on a criminal case and defending the accused. Clearly I'm on the wrong forum.

    Parent

    I haven't followed this case (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by McBain on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:02:38 AM EST
    maybe I should. I'm surprised more people aren't interested in it since it has to do with Russia and guns.  

    Do you think she'll get a fair trial considering how the country feels about Russia right now?

    Parent

    But FTR (4.00 / 2) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:53:36 AM EST
    Allow some interest

    That person is a Russian spy.  There is absolutely no doubt about that.

    If she is released from custody for ONE FU@KING HOUR all she has to do is make it to an embassy.

    OR BETTER YET if she gets I to a car licensed to a Russian embassy, she is gone.

    Do you fu@king get it?

    She can not, and more importantly, WILL NOT be released from custody.

    To say she could be is to be a useful idiot of Putin.

     Congratulations to both of you geniuses for that line on your resume.

    Parent

    She is charged with being an unregistered (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 01:46:00 PM EST
    agent of a foreign government, not with being a spy. But I agree that by normal federal court bail standards, there is not a chance she would be released rather than detained, considering the extraordinary risk of flight to avoid prosecution. The federal pretrial detention law is widely misused and grossly overused, as it has been since enacted in 1984 and upheld by the Supreme Court in 1987. But not in this case, for the reasons Howdy says.

    Parent
    Not in this case (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 01:48:20 PM EST
    Okay, thank you (none / 0) (#56)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:30:14 PM EST
    Re: `The federal pretrial detention law is widely misused and grossly overused`

    I hadn't actually considered the fleeing to an embassy angle. Still, given that, in my opinion, the offence of `exploiting connections to US persons having influence in American politics' warrants visa revocation not a lengthy prison sentence, I think pre-trial house-arrest and an ankle bracelet would have sufficed.

    Parent

    Strawman "offenses" (none / 0) (#59)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:46:54 PM EST
    ... rarely do warrant lengthy prison sentences.  Perhaps if you cared the actual charges rather than misstating them, it would be less confusing.

    Parent
    Re: Strawman "offenses" (none / 0) (#63)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:07:01 PM EST
    I'm quoting the criminal complaint. Which you obviously have not read.

    Parent
    Not every sentence in a criminal complaint (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:49:15 PM EST
    is an accusation of a crime. The formal accusation is one thing. The rest of the complaint is a description by the prosecutors (in a form that can be sworn to by the investigating agent) of the surrounding circumstances. It requires sufficient detail to persuade a magistrate judge to issue an arrest warrant (that is, to establish the existence of probable cause to believe an offense was committed and that this person committed it), and no more. The language you quoted, Linea, does not constitute a description of a criminal offense, and was not meant to. (Just as "collusion" is not a federal criminal offense per se, but an accusation that someone colluded with agents of a foreign power to influence the outcome of a U.S. election may describe the comission of a federal offense.)

    Parent
    Actually, you're MISquoting ... (none / 0) (#75)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:28:21 PM EST
    ... the complaint.

    ... the offence of `exploiting connections to US persons having influence in American politics'

    No where in the complaint does it say that she's charged with what you claim.  The charges are very clearly spelled out in the complaint, which I actually know how to read.  Either you don't know how to read it, or you're intentionally misstating it to claim she's being charged with an "offence" that no one claims or believes is an actual crime (i.e. a strawman offense).  Personally, I believe it's the latter.

    Parent

    Actually, you're still wrong (2.00 / 1) (#82)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:11:17 PM EST
    2. The objects of the conspiracy were:

    c. To exploit personal connections with U.S. persons having influence in American politics in an effort to advance the interests of the Russian Federation without prior notification to the Attorney General



    Parent
    Try reading slowly (4.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:50:08 PM EST
    That's not the "offence" she was charged with.  I'll give you a hint.  Professional prosecutors actually cite the statute when they draft a complaint.  It's that confusing part of the complaint where they discuss what part ("Title" "Section") of the "United States Code" was violated by the defendant - also has a bunch of confusing numbers.  Those are the actual charges (i.e. "offenses").  

    Let me know if you need any more help.

    Parent

    C'mon, Yman, it's not a matter of reading speed (none / 0) (#109)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 08:02:40 PM EST
    Reading a technical legal document like a complaint or warrant correctly takes training and experience, that is, expertise. Linea could benefit from some humility, recognizing that what she thinks she knows from her own Internet research may or may not be correct (not referring here to the posts where she just repeats right-wing talking points, like the silly claim that thousands of Mexicans have committed the same offense at Maria Butina). Yes, she'd do better at finding out what is real and true on those subjects by just asking the experts here to explain. But anyway, you are clearly correct about what the complaint charges (you didn't need me to tell me that). But it's not surprising that a non-lawyer would misunderstand what is meant by the words "object of the conspiracy."

    Parent
    Of course it isn't (5.00 / 3) (#120)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:29:47 PM EST
    But while you have the patience of a saint and are willing to give her the benefit of the doubt for the zillionth time - I don't.  She regularly makes false statements about legal (and other matters), then doubles down when it's pointed out to her.  You're obviously free to continue to give her the benefit of the doubt if you choose, but I don't believe her false claims are good faith errors.  In this case, I don't believe finding the actual charges requires any legal background or knowledge at all.  She just wants to try to minimize the charges against Butina so she selected some relatively innocuous language and claimed that was the "offence" Butina being charged.  Next will come the faux apologies and complaints of being a victim.  Sorry - I've seen this picture a few dozen times already.

    Parent
    "My opinion." (none / 0) (#172)
    by oculus on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 03:41:40 PM EST
    Lots of people are interested nimrod (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:41:49 AM EST
    That why no one even bothered to argue with the laughably clueless comments above.  

    Thanks for the badge of honor 1

    Maybe you guys should get a room.


    Parent

    Also (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:55:50 AM EST
    GUN RIGHTS IN RUSSIA??

    How fu@king stupid are you?

    Parent

    My perspective (none / 0) (#38)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 12:18:53 PM EST
    Re: `Do you think she'll get a fair trial considering how the country feels about Russia right now?`

    In my opinion, the correct response to any alleged concern over her `developing connections with influention persons (not politicians)' should have been to revoke her visa.

    Given the overly broad way they are applying the `register as a foreign agent' statute she probably will be found guilty. To me, the problem is the way they are applying this law not whether they can find fair jurors.

    The problem is (1) she shouldn't be locked in a Federal jail awaiting trial (2) in this case, they are selectively applying Federal law to one nationality and not to the thousands of foreign nationals engaged in similar ersatz-lobbying on other issues such as immigration (3) it's likely the punishment will be radically more severe than what would be given any American who didn't register as a foreign agent.

    CaptHowdy has declared: `That person is a Russian spy.  There is absolutely no doubt about that.'

    She's not even charged with being a SPY or with ESPIONAGE. I had assumed people on this forum were somewhat familiar with the `foreign agent' statute and would not confuse it actual spying. I was wrong.

    This is the sort of idiotic nonsense we get - silly arrests and silly actions like expelling three diplomats - when everyone is engaging in symbolic actions because there is no political will in the US and other countries to take any actual action against Russia because of business ties and the exaggerated influence of the business community and global corporations.

    If people actually cared about Russian agression (rather than the shallow `I hate Russia because Trump likes Russia' nonsense) we would apply Iran-type sanctions on Russia, put a halt on the Russia-German pipeline, and apply serious sanctions on Germany and Siemans for supporting the Putin regime.

    Foreign Minister Gabriel offered no apology for German engineering firm Siemens conspiring with corrupt Russian officials to break sanctions. Siemens worked with Russian cut-outs to ship turbines to temporarily occupied Crimea, thus giving material assistance to Putin's invasion army that is the de facto occupying power on Ukraine's southern peninsula.


    Parent
    We are talking about Maria Butina (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 12:41:01 PM EST
    here and not poor, tragic, Anna Karenina. Right?

    Parent
    What jondee said, linea. (5.00 / 4) (#79)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:52:27 PM EST
    I went home with a waitress, the way I always do.
    How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
    Send lawyers, guns, and money, ow!"
    - Warren Zevon, "Lawyers, Guns and Money" (1978)

    I very seriously doubt that Anna Karenina would have specifically hooked up with J.D. Gordon, Trump's former national security aide and one of Gen. Mike Flynn's troglodytes, during the final weeks of the 2016 campaign and the presidential transition period of Nov. 2016-Jan. 2017.

    As we learn more, linea, I think you'll soon realize that Maria Butina and her buddy Aleksandr Torshin have much less in common with the ill-fated Anna and her selfish lover Count Alexei Vronsky, than they do with Natasha Fatale and Boris Badenov, those Cold War-era nemeses of Moose and Squirrel.

    ;-D

    Parent

    Go McBain (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 12:23:46 PM EST
    Defend this

    Parent
    Or are you (1.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 12:28:41 PM EST
    A coward?


    Parent
    Waiting (1.00 / 1) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 12:44:41 PM EST
    ........

    Parent
    Trolling? (none / 0) (#43)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 01:16:36 PM EST
    McBain isn't required to `defend' my opinion. We actually have radically different views on most everything. I do appreciate that he defends that I am allowed to have my own opinion.

    Parent
    My perspective (none / 0) (#55)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:24:20 PM EST
    She'll be found guilty because she actually broke the law.  We don't know 1/10th of what she's done, do to declare her an innocent victim and claim she wasn't engaged in spying and was "actually a guns rights advocate" falls somewhere between premature and laughably or intentionally naive.  Moreover, intentionally conflating other foreign nationals who are NOT acting as foreign agents is laughably transparent.

    BTW - Claiming she shouldn't be locked up pending trial demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge about the standards used for determining pre-trial detention.

    Parent

    No - you actually ARE ... (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 11:24:03 AM EST
    ... trying to start an argument.  You're claiming that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is ignorant of the facts or delusional.

    To anyone bothering to do the most basic research, it is apparent she has been in the media spotlight for over six years and it should be obvious to any non-delusional person that she isn't a secret-agent operative spying on America.

    So your opinion is that the professional investigators, attorneys, judge and grand jury are all uninformed and/or delusional?

    Heh.

    BTW - "By the way, thousands of Mexican Nationals are involved with groups that engage in lobbying. By the ridiculous standard applied to this woman, they should all be arrested."

    Thta IS a ridiculous standard.  More accurately it's called a "strawman" standard.  No idea what kind of silly analogy you're trying to make, but perhaps you should google the difference between being "involved with" (whatever that mean) an advocacy group (entirely legal) and working for a foreign government without registering as required by law - not to mention criminal conspiracy - both of which are crimes.  

    Parent

    Butina is not charged (none / 0) (#46)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 01:37:52 PM EST
    with being a secret agent "spying on America." What does it matter whether it is "obvious" that she was or wasn't?

    Parent
    Wait (none / 0) (#47)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 01:41:43 PM EST
    How bout that?

    Huh

    Wait

    Parent

    I made that point (none / 0) (#52)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:01:46 PM EST
    Because I expected this:

    Linnea: `it should be obvious to any non-delusional person that she isn't a secret-agent operative spying on America.'

    CaptHowdy: `That person is a Russian spy.  There is absolutely no doubt about that.'


    Parent

    Wait a minute. Why has Linea recently (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:12:47 PM EST
    started spelling her name "Linnea" when she quotes herself (or rewrites the history of her comments)? This is puzzling. It's as if, when I refer back to a comment of my own, I were to identify myself as "Petter." Can some, like Zorbba or Occulus, perhaps, explain this?

    Parent
    Ha ha (none / 0) (#57)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:41:15 PM EST
    I already explained this. I tried to register as `linnéa' but it wouldn't accept the spelling. I kept trying but because I was drinking wine accidental ended up with `linea.' Neither versions are my actual name. My actual name is too easy to dox.

    Parent
    LOL! (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Zorba on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:08:05 PM EST
    Needless to say, my name isn't Zorba, either.
    Zorba the Greek was a man, anyway, and I'm a woman.
    Many of us use a nom de blog.

    Parent
    Kazantzakis (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:35:01 PM EST
    that book has been staring at me from the bookshelf for awhile now.

    I really liked The Last Temptation of Christ. Never really got what was supposed to be so apallingly sacrilegious about it.

    Parent

    Well, the (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Zorba on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:40:26 PM EST
    Greek Orthodox Church certainly found it sacrilegious.   I don't happen to agree with them, but there it is.

    I read and loved both books.  I have a copy of Zorba the Greek in Greek which I periodically pick up and slog through a few more pages.  I can read Greek but it takes me awhile.

    Parent

    You appear to be confused (none / 0) (#58)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:42:17 PM EST
    You appear have concluded that she's not a Russian spy simply because she hasn't yet been charged with espionage.  Ignoring the fact that we only a small fraction of the information gathered by investigators, which so far includes the fact that she was in regular contact with the FSB and Alexander Torshin, who lauded her for upstaging Anna Chapman (a Russian spy).

    Parent
    You appear to be confused (none / 0) (#61)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:55:06 PM EST
    Re: `simply because she hasn't yet been charged with espionage.`

    Yes, I tend to assume people are not guilty of crimes they haven't even been charged with. My bad.


    Parent

    Your "bad" indeed (none / 0) (#72)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:19:00 PM EST
    Don't sell yourself short.  You went far beyond starting that Butina is entitled to a presumption of innocence in a court of law.  You claim she's not a spy (just an "actual guns rights advocate") when in reality we've seen only a fraction of the evidence against her and you have no idea what she is.  You then misstate the charges against her while complaining the actual law is "unfair".  You ignore the actual evidence against her (working for the Russian government while committing with the FSB and Torshin, who literally sent her a message comparing her favorably to another Russian spy).  Then you try to hide behind "I just believe in the presumption of innocence."

    Parent
    None of us should be assuming or presuming (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:41:39 PM EST
    that Butina or anyone else charged with a crime by the feds (or by a state DA) is guilty of what they are charged with or of anything else. I certainly haven't expressed any such assumption. But it is naive to suppose that the charging documents reflect a complete accounting of all the evidence that exists, because that is not their function, and prosecutors have no reason to put all their evidence out in the public record prematurely.

    Parent
    If she is being held without (none / 0) (#74)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:22:53 PM EST
    Bail I believe we laymen can assume there is a reason for that.

    I'm pretty sure redheads from Russia are not routinely held without bail simply to make stupid blog mavens clutch their fu@king pearls and run to their protectors

    Parent

    Agreed, Peter. (none / 0) (#80)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:02:15 PM EST
    Given that our national security is potentially at stake here, I'd much rather that we discover any misjudgments about Maria Butina after the fact, rather than simply presume her innocent until found guilty, release her on bail, and then watch her flee to Moscow.

    Parent
    According to the Supreme Court (none / 0) (#83)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:20:09 PM EST
    the pretrial detention provisions of the 1984 Bail Reform Act do not contradict the presumption of innocence, properly understood and applied. Contrary to popular misconception, the presumption of innocence does not require that every accused person be treated at all times as if we knew for a fact that she was wrongly accused. That would be nonsensical.

    Parent
    Thank you again, Peter. (none / 0) (#90)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:05:56 PM EST
    Sometimes, it's necessary to restate the obvious. It's the job of prosecutors to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. More often than not, we'll only know if a defendant has been wrongly charged after the fact, and not prior to trial.

    Judges seldom (if ever) order a defendant to be remanded into custody without bail, without a sufficient and compelling reason to do so. And given Maria Butima's connections and resources, federal prosecutors made the case that she obviously poses a significant flight risk.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Really, Donald, you should stick to history (none / 0) (#105)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 07:42:51 PM EST
    which you know (and tell) so well. On legal stuff, you don't really know what you're talking about, sometimes. You say, "Judges seldom (if ever) order a defendant to be remanded into custody without bail, without a sufficient and compelling reason to do so." That is so far from true. Abuse of the detention statute against low-level federal drug defendants and child p*rn possessors is rampant, totally commonplace, unfortunately.

    Parent
    That's from your side, Peter. (none / 0) (#111)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 08:21:19 PM EST
    You're a criminal defense attorney who has a dog in that hunt. I don't doubt you at all that it's been abused in the past and will likely be again in the future. But considering the sheer volume of criminal cases that wind their way through the legal system, the number of times when a defendant is held without bail is relatively small. I misspoke by speaking too generally.

    (I'm not speaking of those times when bail is set at such a prohibitive level for the nature of the offense, that the effect is comparable to no bail at all. Our jails and cell blocks in Hawaii are way overcrowded with people who can't make bond pending trial, who further tend to be Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander. And that's created a big problem with the ACLU, and we're likely facing a federal consent decree that's merely awaiting its issuance. But that's another discussion for another day.)

    Yes, the legal system by and large tends to be prejudiced against the poor and minorities, and even one miscarriage of justice is one too many. But the vast majority of judges are honest and diligent in their work, and that's the point I was making here. And further given the high profile nature of the case, few federal judges are going to order Maria Butina to be held without bond without first being offered a compelling rationale for doing so.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    If you were talking about local cases (none / 0) (#112)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 09:05:12 PM EST
    in the state courts, then I misunderstood your prior comment. We had been discussing the Butina case, and thus were addressing detention in federal cases under the 1984 Bail Reform Act, which applies only in federal court. I stand by what I wrote. It is not a matter of "sides," it is a fact. As for local courts, if you want to turn the discussion in that direction, that's an entirely different matter, and depends on what state you're in, and sometimes what county of that state you're in. In much of the U.S., poor people do load up our jails on account of being unable to post bail, and not necessarily high bail, often very low bail. An entirely different problem from the abuse of the detention statute in federal cases, as I was describing.

    Parent
    John Oliver (none / 0) (#121)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:36:38 PM EST
    Is doing his show this week on prosecutorial misconduct

    If you are not watching you should find it

    Last Week Tonight

    Parent

    Thanks for the tip, Howdy (none / 0) (#180)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 08:06:27 PM EST
    I just watched it. Excellent. Here's the link. About 19 minutes. I recommend it to everyone.

    Parent
    Jebus (none / 0) (#84)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:22:47 PM EST
    She hasn't been charged with endangering National Security.

    Crimes Involving National Security

    Federal espionage statutes criminalize various acts, depending on whether the conduct occurs during peace or during war. During times of peace, it is criminal espionage to gather, transmit, or attempt to gather or transmit defense information (criminal act) with general intent or knowingly, or with the specific intent or purposely that it will be used to damage the United States or assist any foreign nation (18 U.S.C. § 793, 2011). During times of war, it is criminal espionage to collect, record, publish, or communicate information about military activities or to attempt any of the foregoing (criminal act) with the specific intent or purposely that the information will be transmitted to the enemy (18 U.S.C. § 794(b), 2011). Espionage is graded as a felony, with potential sentencing of life in prison or the death penalty (18 U.S.C. § 792 et seq., 2011).


    Parent
    Maria Butina has been charged with conspiracy and with being an agent of a foreign government (Moscow). You're foolishly splitting hairs here.

    Parent
    Re: foolishly splitting hairs (none / 0) (#100)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:51:24 PM EST
    Okay. I'll try to not do that anymore.

    But I still feel she is being picked on. They should have just revoked her visa. What makes me particularly irate is the `flirty' and `slutty' insinuations which for men typically means she smiled and was polite but wouldn't go on a date with you.

    Butina lawyer demands evidence from prosecutors about sex claims


    Parent

    You know what makes me "irate"? (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:39:29 PM EST
    What makes me particularly irate is the `flirty' and `slutty' insinuations which for men typically means she smiled and was polite but wouldn't go on a date with you.

    Ridiculous, false smearss such as these.  The prosecutors didn't state that she was "flirty" or "slutty".  They weren't upset because she wouldn't go out on a date with them.  They stated very clearly in their filings (under oath) that she was cohabitating with a 56-year-old man for whom she expressed disdain because it was part of her "activities".  They also stated she offered another individual $ex in exchange for a position within a special interest organization.

    Parent

    Nobody's "picking on" Ms. Butina. (none / 0) (#107)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 07:46:17 PM EST
    She is a Russian national who's made some questionable alliances and choices whilst residing in our country, activities for which she's now under serious scrutiny. Federal prosecutors likely have much more evidence to that effect than you and I probably realize. But what we already know about Butina and Torshin is cause enough for our concern. And such concern may in fact have underscored the NRA's recent leadership shakeup.

    Butina isn't just some Russian-born NRA gun rights advocate who's gotten swept up in the current anti-Russian hysteria. She was actively working to advance Kremlin policy in our country, whether it was through ingratiating herself with American conservative leadership at the NRA or cajoling Maurice "Hank" Greenberg, the former chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and now-former CEO of financial services giant AIG, to increase his investments in Investtorgbank, a Moscow-based bank that was in danger of imminent collapse.

    You've made your opinions about Butina known, and that's fine as far as it goes. But the folks who post here at TalkLeft aren't hayseeds who just tumbled off the turnip truck in Turlock, which is what you tend to find over at RedState.org. I for one find them to be far better informed about policy and issues than most Americans.

    Let it go, and be content to let the story play out on its own time. No doubt, we'll learn the truth eventually.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Fine (none / 0) (#108)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 07:52:03 PM EST
    I'll let it go.

    Parent
    Ridiculous (none / 0) (#35)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 11:11:13 AM EST
    Uninformed, baseless, mischaracterizing and false apologia.

    My opinion.

    Parent

    Hope Hicks is back (none / 0) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 03:56:23 PM EST
    Met Trump at the airport, took off with him to Ohio?

    360 crushed tomatoes (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 03:56:29 PM EST
    I drink 360 VODKA

    Because I like it and because I like the nifty resealable bottle.  I have been planning to use the bottles for something.  I have dozens.  I still may do some kind of wine depending on what there is lots of in the fall
    Plum wine?

    Today I bought a sh!tload of fresh tomatoes at the local produce stand (my plants did not produce as hoped) tomorrow I plan to start "canning" them.  Crushed in my 360 bottles.

    Interesting (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 04:30:22 PM EST
    I have not seen this Vodka before.

    Many months ago we were discussing gin and someone suggested Boodles. When I eventually found it, it became my husband's favorite. I recently discovered a Vodka called Żubrówka. It is flavored with what they call buffalo grass.

    When I was a kid my Uncle grew a patch of buffalo grass though or what he called buffalo grass. It was short bladed and had a whitish blue hue. It was very drought tolerant, but when I was a kid it was already endangered. It had disappeared from the prairie.

    What this Vodka calls buffalo grass I was raised calling sweet grass. It is used in plains Indians rituals. It is long bladed, so long that it can be braided into ropes. And when it is burnt it has an incense quality as heavy as sage but it isn't like sage at all.

    When I lived in Wyoming I attended some sweat lodge rituals. And they cleanse with sage but during the sweat they touch sweet grass to the hot rocks and it fills the air with the scent. It gets into your pores, your hair, it's delicious. It also makes an interesting Vodka.

    And a roll of generic aluminum foil just cost me $10.00. WTF?

    Parent

    Aluminum foil (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:01:21 PM EST
    10 bucks????

    I had better buy some tomorrow even though I don't need it because it could be 20 when I do.

    Parent

    QAnon has driven up (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 11:25:55 AM EST
    the price of foil practically overnight.

    Parent
    Thanks Obama (5.00 / 3) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:41:26 PM EST
    Right? (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:42:41 PM EST
    Tomatoes (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jmacWA on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:51:13 AM EST
    Our tomatoes have started to come in finally, the plants are giant, they've had dozens of good sized tomatoes for a month, but they just started turning.  Had my first gazpacho of the season Friday night.

    Parent
    I now have 8 (none / 0) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:24:00 PM EST
    5ths of crushed tomatoes and 3 5ths of tomato juice.

    Parent
    I rate that better (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 12:55:22 PM EST
    than a 5th of bourbon.

    Parent
    For the sake of (none / 0) (#145)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 05:14:10 PM EST
    All that's holy, Howdy, if you have some home-made tomato juice, and I know you have vodka, you have got to make yourself a Bloody Mary.
    Tomato juice, a little fresh lemon juice, a dash(or more) of hot pepper sauce, a dash of Worcestershire sauce, some black pepper, some garlic powder, pinch of sea salt.  If you like a little more spike to it (we do), add a little bit of prepared horseradish and a pinch of smoked paprika.
    If you want to get fancy, you can add a little fresh herb garnish to the top. (I mainly do that if we're having guests for brunch or breakfast.  They get a choice of a Bloody Mary or a screwdriver.)

    Parent
    Darlin (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 06:01:16 PM EST
    I am soooo far ahead of you

    Parent
    Okay, yeah, all that (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 06:11:56 PM EST
    But you must add a strip of crisp bacon, a steamed shrimp or two, and a pickled okra.

    Parent
    Tomatoes (none / 0) (#4)
    by Zorba on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 04:22:05 PM EST
    Really ought to be canned in proper jars, Howdy.  And at least, boiling-water-bath them.  Even better, pressure can them, but you should be fine if you give them a boiling water bath.


    Parent
    We're canning and drying mangoes today. (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 09:04:53 PM EST
    Our two big trees in the back yard had a bumper crop this summer. It's a good thing everybody around here likes them because even then, we can't give them away fast enough.

    Parent
    mmm Mango (none / 0) (#29)
    by jmacWA on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:49:18 AM EST
    Nothing I like better than a good Mango smoothie.

    Parent
    Drinking one as I read this :) (none / 0) (#193)
    by Steve13209 on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 07:23:36 AM EST
    I have the equipment (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 04:48:24 PM EST
    The giant pot with the wire frame to lift out the bottles.  It will be fine.

    I plane to seal the sterilized bottles with wax.

    Parent

    Then I think (none / 0) (#10)
    by Zorba on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:16:19 PM EST
    that you'll be fine.

    Parent
    Started watching the Ken Burns (none / 0) (#5)
    by McBain on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 04:24:19 PM EST
    Vietnam documentary series.  Interesting so far but not binge worthy.  

    Enjoyed the fist episode of HBO's Barry.

    Tried but couldn't into HBO's Sharp Objects... too depressing.  

    Saw the Fegurson/Michael Brown documentary "Who's Streets".  Thought it was better than the first episode of Rest in Power but similar in that it lacked in details of the actual event that led to the movement.

    Would like to see the new movie Leave No Trace but it's not playing near me.  Anyone see it yet?

    Mr. Zorba and I (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Zorba on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:15:14 PM EST
    Decided we just can't watch this.  We lived through that era and lost too many friends and classmates who served there (or who came back physically disabled and/or psychologically disabled with PTSD).
    I have been to the Vietnam War Memorial in DC, which made me burst into tears (my parents wanted to see it when they visited, so I took them).  But Mr. Zorba to this day has not and will not go see it.
    And yes, we were both active in the anti-Vietnam War movement.

    Parent
    Sharp Objects (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:42:14 PM EST
    Is amazing

    Parent
    I'm with you (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:47:42 PM EST
    And the cutting? Josh's generation cuts a lot. I remember having a private conversation with you about that. But a lot of small town secrets stuff which our generation can relate to.

    Parent
    Speculation not spoiler (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 05:50:10 PM EST
    I think Amma is the killer.

    Remember when the sheriff said "you have two daughters, one is dangerous and one is in danger"?

    Still not sure if he was being ironic of if he is clueless

    Parent

    I think Amma is part of the killing (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 06:05:33 PM EST
    But not strong enough to remove teeth

    Parent
    I'm avoiding reading (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 06:09:11 PM EST
    Anything that could spoil it for me.

    Parent
    And I do hope the (none / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 06:13:19 PM EST
    Town Sheriff cares enough for Camille that he would try to keep her safe. Few townfolk seem to understand that Camille's mom despises her and has no good wishes for her. I was quite moved by how protective Camille is toward Amma, while also knowing that Amma isn't a nice human being.

    Parent
    I was gonna say (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 06:16:30 PM EST
    I also have one eye on the deeply twisted mother.

    Parent
    I thought about that (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 06:41:43 PM EST
    But who holds everyone together? Who is so co-dependent he has to be crazy? Who puts his headphones on and makes the bad stuff go away? Daddy.

    So Amma kills them and Daddy covers up?

    Except why was one girl's body hidden and the other on display like a serial killer would?

    Parent

    Just watching again (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 07:46:02 PM EST
    Dad playing the piano riff from Riders on the Storm

    You could be right about dad

    Parent

    Succession finale (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:25:57 PM EST
    So good.  Poor Kendal

    I knew what was going to happen before they ever got in the car.


    Parent

    New Seasons on Netflix (none / 0) (#22)
    by linea on Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 06:29:22 PM EST
    Good (recently added)
    Season 5 Marvel's Agents of SHIELD
    Season 4 Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt
    Season 3 Supergirl

    Terrible (recently added)
    Season 2 GLOW

    Recommend Films (recently added)
    Paddington
    Brain on Fire


    Oh my (none / 0) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 01:36:42 PM EST
    A 1 from the enabler in chief

    Come on, Howdy (none / 0) (#50)
    by Zorba on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 01:55:29 PM EST
    You can do better than that.
    You live in the South. Start using "Well, bless your heart.  Aren't you special?"  instead.  ;-)

    I don't know about you guys (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:11:34 PM EST
    but, I could go for a nice mint julep or three about now. It's that kinda day.

    My son the antique dealer just called me and told me his cat just knocked a thousand-year-old Chinese jade disk- pendant that he was cleaning off the sink breaking it in six pieces.

    What do you say to that? Oh, there'll be more thousand-year-old jade pendants..

    Parent

    Sounds like a job for Elmer's. (none / 0) (#60)
    by desertswine on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 02:49:45 PM EST
    Yeah a lot of it.. (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:22:41 PM EST
    he needs a little psychological Elmer's right about now.

    These cats are lucky we take such a likin' to 'em, I can tell you that.

    Parent

    I recommend NOT asking your son (none / 0) (#67)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:37:05 PM EST
    why, if the object he was cleaning was of particular value, he was handling it so carelessly as to clean it in the sink, while balancing it on the edge dangling over the floor.

    Parent
    He's already doing that (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:50:08 PM EST
    to himself, believe me.

    It's a little hectic and catch-as-catch-can over there, with a two-year-old and a newborn.

    I gave him the "all smart people mess up sometimes" and told him about the renowned herpatologist I had just been reading about who got careless and ended up dying from a snake bite.

    Sometimes, stuff just happens.

    Parent

    I'm game (none / 0) (#71)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:11:48 PM EST
    I had a mint julep or three last year at a backyard party. It's not a drink that one can order at a restaurant and expect other than a poor facsimile.


    Parent
    That's very true (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:20:04 PM EST
    unless it's a very high-end place, and even then it probably won't be exactly how you like it.

    Parent
    We sometimes make them (none / 0) (#81)
    by Zorba on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:08:54 PM EST
    With our own garden mint.

    Parent
    That's the only way to do it, imo (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:35:13 PM EST
    one thing we have no shortage of around here is mint.

    Parent
    I don't like bourbon (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:38:03 PM EST
    Even with fresh mint

    Parent
    Whaaaaat?!?! (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 09:41:43 PM EST
    Next you will claim to not eat grits or biscuits and gravy. Such blasephemy.

    Good bourbon can be the only saving grace to a bad day. It is velvet nectar. A spirit to be sipped raw or over ice. No coke or 7up or anything else frilly. I am actually a very occasional drinker. A bottle of bourbon can last a few months in my house. For that reason I can afford to be snob a buy really good stuff. But when I do take the occasion to have a sip, it is almost enough for me to rethink the existence of an invisible old guy in the sky.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:15:37 PM EST
    A little,  sometimes.  Especially the good stuff.

    Parent
    Me either (none / 0) (#125)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 07:33:47 AM EST
    Mint Juleps I just cant. One of these days they're going to come and revoke my southerner card.

    I do however like a good Scarlett O'Hara.

    Parent

    I'm having a 'War of the Roses' (none / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:16:05 PM EST
    Jade antiquities memory moment :)

    Parent
    Was Kathleen Turner in that? (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:31:27 PM EST
    Yep.. (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:39:32 PM EST
    Who knew a stone could be so breakable?

    Note to self: never drop anything made of jade on a hard tile floor.

    Parent

    He's got another good one (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:43:49 PM EST
    that someone from Sotheby's is supposed to look at, but I don't wanna put the kina hora on it by talking about it, or that one might get broken. ;)

    Parent
    Yes, I love that movie (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 07:03:52 PM EST
    And it disturbs my husband that I love that movie.

    Parent
    So sorry (none / 0) (#126)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 07:34:48 AM EST
    to hear about your son. I hope things get better for him.

    Parent
    FINE (none / 0) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 01:59:23 PM EST
    Bless their fu@king stupid hearts

    Parent
    The reason people use (none / 0) (#62)
    by Zorba on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 03:04:09 PM EST
    The above phrases in the South is so that you don't have to use swear words, but everybody gets the picture.
    If a southern woman, in particular, says "Bless your heart,"
    often adding "Aren't you special?"  everybody around knows to either duck or run away.  It's particularly effective if spoken with a deep Southern accent.

    :-D

    Parent

    Yeah well (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:34:20 PM EST
    I'm not only from the south I am in the south.  The NEW south where TX GA and TN are going to surprise in Nov

    In the new south we don't give a sh!t about suggestions about body parts we don't mention.

    If we mean f u@k you and the straw man you rode in on we will say

    FU@K YOU AND THE STUPID FU@KING STRAW MAN YOU RODE IN ON.

    Parent

    Hahahahaha! (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by Zorba on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 04:42:19 PM EST
    Haha (none / 0) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:41:58 PM EST
    I know. We get more Jersey by the day it seems.

    Frankly I can deal with becoming more like New Jersey than I can deal with the whole passive agressive southern thing. Growing up it was never polite to be angry and so it came out with underhanded or backhanded comments. I can't take it anymore. Just say it to my face.

    Parent

    Oy. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:42:43 PM EST
    Per Jay Sekulow, Trump's attorney: "You know that time I bull$hi++ed you about the Trump Tower meeting? Well, I didn't realize that the reason I was bull$hi++ing you was because my own client was bull$hi++ing me. Look, $hi+ happens, okay? Get over it."

    This is not going to end well for the Trumps.

    I saw this (none / 0) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:52:51 PM EST
    Did you see this

    Fake News reporting, a complete fabrication, that I am concerned about the meeting my wonderful son, Donald, had in Trump Tower. This was a meeting to get information on an opponent, totally legal and done all the time in politics - and it went nowhere. I did not know about it!
    7:35 AM · Aug 5, 2018

    Wants this about adoption until, well, now?

    Desperation is absolutely oozing

    Parent

    C&L (none / 0) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:12:21 PM EST
    Be honest (none / 0) (#133)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 01:00:02 PM EST
    He said "over time facts develop".

    Although, he could have been referring to "alternative facts".

    Parent

    I begin to see the attraction (none / 0) (#89)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 05:56:44 PM EST
    And identification
    VICE news

    White Russian meddling: Accused spy Maria Butina reportedly blew her cover because she got too drunk

    By Rex Santus Aug 3, 2018

    Maria Butina, the 29-year-old woman arrested for operating as a Russian secret agent in the U.S., was apparently not so skilled at keeping secrets after a few vodka shots.

    In fact, Butina repeatedly bragged about her work as a spy for the Russian government while drunk, sources told CNN. On two occasions, classmates were so distressed by Butina's claims that they reported her to law enforcement.

    Even sober, she wasn't exactly careful with how she communicated, favoring apps like Twitter and WhatsApp. Other sources told CNN that Butina was quick to use flirtatious behavior like footsie to get the attention of men at political events, raising suspicion with her heavy-handed overtures.



    So do we now call the NRA... (none / 0) (#137)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 02:32:02 PM EST
    the National Russia Association or the National Redhead Association?  

    Parent
    Watch Ohio Tuesday (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:06:06 PM EST
    Democrats surging on eve of pivotal special election

    "Up until now, these special elections have been highly overhyped. This special [election] is different, it's truly an accurate reflection of where both parties' bases are, as we leave the calm and head into the general election storm," said Nick Everhart, an Ohio-based GOP strategist who is working on races across the country but is not involved in this one. "This election outcome is not overhyped, and it matters maybe more than the hype."


    Emerson Poll Out Today (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by CoralGables on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 12:46:46 PM EST
    Gives O'Connor a 1 point lead. It's the first time he has taken a lead after closing a large deficit in recent weeks. It also explains why the GOP is trying to figure out who is to blame for Trump showing up in Ohio's 12th District for a rally when apparently no Republicans wanted him there.

    Ohio's 12th CD was +11 for Trump but the rats are fleeing the sinking trump.

    Parent

    That was (none / 0) (#140)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 02:43:26 PM EST
    funny. Kasich was trying to shove it off and the candidate was trying to shove it off. Somehow Trump showed up but nobody invited him.

    Parent
    The (none / 0) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 06:51:55 PM EST
    D is supposedly 15 points ahead in early voting but of course we have no idea who is going to show up on Tuesday.

    I wonder how much Trump stupidly attacking Lebron is going to play in this race.

    Parent

    I'm sure you know (none / 0) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 07:11:17 PM EST
    Kemp/ Abrams is a dead heat with Abrams ahead in some polls.

    I'm tellin ya

    She's gonna win.  While I'm at it so is Beto and so is Bredesen in TN.

    stock up on party favors.

    The bad news is I would bet that before November Trump and his flying monkeys will be pushing the story that the election results can not be trusted and there will be a wave of refusals to concede

    We will deal with that when we get there.  Let's just beat them like a red headed step child and go from there.

    Parent

    There is (none / 0) (#110)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 08:17:52 PM EST
    one poll with Abrams leading and it's questionable. Most have shown her 2 points behind.

    Seriously though Kemp is secretary of state and he was SOS when the Russians got in our files here in GA.

    I will agree with Bresden but so far Beto has not led any polls with Cruz but it is getting closer with every poll for sure. So while I think TN will flip I'm not as optimistic about GA govenor and Tx senate. I will certainly change my mind if polls after Labor Day start showing positive for Team D. The only thing I'm pretty certain of at this point is the house flipping.

    What about OK? The governor there Mary Fallin has an 11% approval rating and she is killing the GOP in that state.

    Parent

    Beto too? (none / 0) (#113)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 09:27:33 PM EST
    That would be something.  

    Parent
    Prediction still (none / 0) (#104)
    by linea on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 07:40:39 PM EST
    Senator Joe Lieberman (former vice-presidential candidate on the Democratic Party ticket) on the Sunday Morning Futures political discussion television show:

    Sen. Lieberman supports restarting the Iran sanctions, predicts Kavanaugh will garner enough moderate Dems votes for nomination, and predicts a small blue wave this fall with Dems regaining the House but not the Senate.


    This is quite frankly (5.00 / 3) (#114)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 09:30:24 PM EST
    annoying that you would cite Joe Lieberman.

    This is actually trolling, but I suppose you may claim ignorance.  Why do you think Lieberman's views hold any weight, especially here?

    Parent

    Admit it (5.00 / 2) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:13:03 PM EST
    You didn't know he was a VP candidate

    Parent
    Who is this ... (5.00 / 2) (#123)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 10:40:41 PM EST
    ... "Joe Lieberman" she speaks of?

    Parent
    Could that be the same Lieberman (5.00 / 6) (#124)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 11:07:21 PM EST
    who is enough of a despised bugaboo to our esteemed hostess that he merits his own topic link on the sidebar? The same senator who sat down at our family table at a Bill Clinton rally in New Haven in 1992, after we stood up momentarily to take out little girls over to the rope line to shake hands and get their pictures taken with Hillary, and proceeded to eat our pizza? And denied it all, with the sauce still on his lying lips, when we returned to the table five minutes later?

    Parent
    True story?!? (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 09:28:14 AM EST
    Holy cow.  That's incredible.

    Parent
    True story (5.00 / 5) (#129)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 10:23:31 AM EST
    A family legend.

    Parent
    Pizzagate (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by MKS on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 04:21:05 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#128)
    by FlJoe on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 09:42:03 AM EST
    but did he eat it with a fork? That is the true litmus test.

    Parent
    Sounds a little (none / 0) (#132)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 12:56:09 PM EST
    like a Larry David situation.

    Parent
    This Q thing just shows how far (none / 0) (#134)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 01:43:47 PM EST
    Trump has pulled Republicans over the edge with him.

    I've been reading the comments on some mainstream rw sites, and an easy two-thirds of commenters think there's something legimate about this Q business that bears looking into, or are full-fledged kool-aid drinkers.

    Talk about the madness of crowds.

    Maybe Krushchev will bury us after all. Under a mountain of our own delusion and hysteria.


    Parent

    Q is now prophesying (none / 0) (#135)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 02:16:31 PM EST
    a "red wave and a white squall" to the faithful. And they're eating it up.

    Maybe it's just me, by my associations with that particular dog-whistle are all Aryan-Wagnerian and violent.

    Kristallnacht-ish stuff.

    Parent

    What is a white squall? (none / 0) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 02:27:49 PM EST
    Yeah, exactly (none / 0) (#138)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 02:43:12 PM EST
    this is sounding more-and-more like the Michael Scheuer-Gorka quarter doing a far-right version of Paul is dead.

    Parent
    I googled red wave white squall (none / 0) (#146)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 05:14:11 PM EST
    That was a mistake! And it just goes on and on on YouTube. Q got Trump to sign a hat, 7 dwarves, deep state wizards, Saudi Arabia and mirrors.

    Parent
    Youtube is like an open sewer these days (none / 0) (#151)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 07:39:51 PM EST
    I googled (none / 0) (#152)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 08:10:32 PM EST
    too. It's like a combination of Ron Paul and Lyndon Larouche. Good lord.

    Parent
    A sudden and dangerous storm (none / 0) (#139)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 02:43:19 PM EST
    on the Great Lakes, as explained in a really terrific song by the late Stan Rogers. Although I suppose it's possible these racist thugs meant something else by that expression.

    Parent
    White Squall (none / 0) (#141)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 02:51:50 PM EST
    Is a pretty good movie

    Which happens to be a personal favorite because among other things it's roughly 2 hrs of teenaged boys in wet tighty whities

    Parent

    Red wave (none / 0) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 02:52:58 PM EST
    They are going to try to play the drubbing as a rigged election.

    You watch

    Refusals to concede

    Parent

    I'm really starting to miss (none / 0) (#143)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 03:04:30 PM EST
    the good old days when people like these folks used to just run off and join the Branch Davidians and the Manson Family.

    Parent
    I'd prefer (none / 0) (#148)
    by Zorba on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 05:17:28 PM EST
    that they go the Jim Jones route.  At least the poisoned drinks were a more peaceful death than dying in a fire like the Branch Davidians

    Parent
    Didn't The Good Reverend (none / 0) (#164)
    by CoralGables on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 11:00:24 AM EST
    use cyanide? That doesn't sound peaceful.

    Parent
    Not very peaceful, (none / 0) (#168)
    by Zorba on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 12:27:30 PM EST
    but still better than dying by fire.
    But then, I have an unreasonable fear of being burned to death.

    Parent
    I think you're right (none / 0) (#147)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 05:14:54 PM EST
    Re: `Admit it' (none / 0) (#155)
    by linea on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 10:20:18 PM EST
    Ha ha. Obviously I wouldn't have known he was a former VP candidate for the Democratic Party had that not been part of the introduction to the interview. Can you guess how old I was in 2000? Who was the Democratic Party Vice Presidential Candidate in 1972?

    Parent
    I knew that (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 10:46:21 PM EST
    First presidential election I could vote in. Just missed 2968 election, fortunately.

    Parent
    1968 (none / 0) (#157)
    by Peter G on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 10:47:16 PM EST
    Obviously

    Parent
    Ha! (none / 0) (#158)
    by linea on Mon Aug 06, 2018 at 11:42:20 PM EST
    The 70s makes me laugh. I think of 70s Day in school.

    Parent
    Also my first presidential election. (none / 0) (#160)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 08:44:40 AM EST
    Lower voting age meant I did not have to sit out until 1976.

    Parent
    I did not vote (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 09:56:29 AM EST
    But it was the first time I was aware in any significant way.

    I was in NYC and was sure McGovern was going to win.

    The crushing loss was a metaphorical slap in the face that told me more attention needs to be paid

    Parent

    If you thought McGovern was going to win (none / 0) (#165)
    by CoralGables on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 11:04:33 AM EST
    it might be more appropriate to say you were "aware in a less than significant way".

    Parent
    True (none / 0) (#170)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 02:00:07 PM EST
    Less than later more than before

    But it was easy to think that if Manhattan was your world.

    Parent

    Well, George McGivern was the Democratic (5.00 / 2) (#161)
    by caseyOR on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 08:52:39 AM EST
    Nominee for President. He initially chose Missouri Senator Tom Eagleton as his running mate. When it was revealed that Eagleton had been treated for depression, treatment that included electro-shock therapy, he was forced off the ticket.

    R. Sargent Shriver replaced Eagleton as the Democratic vice-presidential candidate.

    The Democratic primary that year was notable for having among the candidates the first black woman to seek a major party nomination. I refer, of course, to the brilliant and amazing Shirley Chisholm. It was my great honor to cast my first ever  vote for Congresswoman Chisholm.

    Parent

    I worked for (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by Zorba on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 12:38:49 PM EST
    Tom Eagleton's first senatorial campaign in 1968, manning phones and stuffing envelopes and things like that.
    I liked Eagleton, and was disappointed four years later when McGovern gave him the old heave-ho.  

    Parent
    What in the hell were those guys (none / 0) (#167)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 12:25:01 PM EST
    looking for at the Watergate Hotel and DNC headquaters, that they were willing to take those reckless, crazy chances even with Nixon far ahead in the polls?

    Something to do with "the Bay of Pigs thing" that Nixon is heard talking about a couple of times on tape, or could it have been something else?

    The Republicans have changed their clothes, but they still haven't taken a bath. Not even after all these years.

    Parent

    ... to enter the Central Pacific vicinity of Hawaii, and it's a big one, now approaching Category 5 level at last report. Sustained winds are at 155 mph.

    Although Hector is expected to track south of us, the Big Island is now under a Tropical Storm Watch, as the hurricane is now 700 miles ESE of Hilo. Any slight deviation to the north will put us in its crosshairs.

    I don't think that will happen, but since it's better to be safe than sorry, we replenished our hurricane provisions this weekend. As it stands, we can expect lots of rain by Wednesday or Thursday, when Hector's outer bands sideswipe us as it passes by.

    Aloha.

    Hopefully Hector will miss you Donald, (none / 0) (#159)
    by fishcamp on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 08:43:43 AM EST
    however you could have some double overhead surf on your side of the island.  And I would go with the expensive but delicious Cointreau instead of the sugary Margherita mix.  Allegedly Margaret from Puerto Vallarta had a bottle of tequila, a bottle of Cointreau, and a lemon tree in her yard.  She mixed equal parts of the liquors and lemon juice and it became the famous  Margherita.  Could be a myth or legend, but I'm going with the story.

    Parent
    NEW WAVE: DARE TO BE DIFFERENT (none / 0) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 10:43:46 AM EST
    i recorded this a while back and just got around to it.

    The doc from this year but the music is all 80s.  If you were in the city at this this me you will remember.

    This is a frothy pink milkshake of a documentary.

    Need to escape from Trumpland?  You could do way worse

    The segment in New Wave: Dare to Be Different that most brings that home is the one about the station's relationship with the area record stores that stocked imports. Certainly, to a greater degree than its format counterparts, WLIR had no interest in whether a record was being "worked" to U.S. radio. Leinwand recalls how WLIR clashed with Island Records by adding Frankie Goes to Hollywood's "Relax" immediately -- rather than letting the label marketing plan play out for the year that it took to become a full-fledged American hit. But WLIR also gave a career to APB, the Scottish band that didn't even have hits at home, or anywhere else in the U.S. These days, the unwillingness of most stations to go "off the menu" to find even an individual song is well documented in these pages. So imagine the likelihood of any owner following the music to an entirely new format.



    I thought Cyndy Lauper (none / 0) (#166)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 11:52:17 AM EST
    was kind a breath of fresh air back then. Her stuff was fun and spontaneous and ironic and edgy kind of all at the same time. And good enough musical hooks that Miles Davis made an instrumental version of Time After Time part of his live repertoire.

    And then there was all that grittier Velvet Underground-ish stuff that came out by people like Mink DeVille and Garland Jeffrey's. Velvet Underground-ish, but funked-up just enough so that people could move to it..

    And then there was Laurie Anderson. Oh, Superman..

    Parent

    I agree she was special (none / 0) (#171)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 02:12:54 PM EST
    But honestly, and this doc reminded me of this, many of these artists were are are to this day under rated and not given the credit they deserve.

    I saw a Tears for Fears concert around this time that was, no foolin, one of the best 5 live performances I have ever seen.

    Parent

    Watched the second episode of (none / 0) (#173)
    by McBain on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 04:49:50 PM EST
    Rest in Power.  There was more of Jeralyn in this one. So far I recommend this documentary series because of Jeralyn and because it has good pacing/production value.  

    I could go on and on about what I don't like about it but I'll focus on what I found interesting.  To me, this is isn't a documentary of the George Zimmerman trial.  It's more of a victory lap for all the people who forced it to a trial which then led to the Black Lives Matter Movement. Their effort was impressive. Unfortunately, it was build on myths.

    I liked the part where they interviewed one of Zimmerman's early lawyers Hal Urig (who didn't last long).  I almost forgot about him.  What I remember was Urig kept referring to his client as George Martin.  Maybe he's a big Beatles fan.

    Please, no comments on the facts of the case/trial.  There's an entire section of TalkLeft for that. Respond if you have something to say about this series or about crime documentaries in general.  This one is no O.J. Made in America but it's still entertaining.

    I'm Not Gonna Watch (none / 0) (#174)
    by RickyJim on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 05:32:21 PM EST
    So be nice and give a summary of what Jeralyn said.  I do remember her being on TV during the case and saying something about "outside lawyers" messing up the machinery of justice.  Thanks in advance.

    Parent
    ricky jim, (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 09:26:52 PM EST
    I forgot about that. Here's a short CNN clip where I said exactly that,

    Parent
    So far, she's mostly been talking about (none / 0) (#175)
    by McBain on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 05:42:03 PM EST
    Florida's stand your ground law which is a bit strange since it wasn't a stand your ground case.  I think she said it might have preventing the Sanford police from arrested Zimmerman early on.  It shouldn't have, since his story from day one was he was on his back, pinned down by TM.  

    Jeralyn also briefly mentions the theory that GZ got preferential treatment because he father was a magistrate.  On that note, I'll mention a reoccurring theme, not from Jeralyn, is that if GZ had been black he would have been arrested right away. Benjamin Crump, Al Sharpton and others repeat this in one way or another. Even if that's true, it doesn't justify forcing a trial on someone who isn't black. But that's where the social justice element really kicks in.  

     

    Parent

    I'm not sure if you're stupid (5.00 / 2) (#176)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 06:21:53 PM EST
    or just a liar. It had everything to do with Florida's Stand your Ground law. The trial may not have, but everything leading up it did. The police said that in the first 10 minutes of the show. They did not initially charge Zimmerman because of the stand your ground law. The state's attorney wouldn't file charges because of stand your ground. And Jeralyn essentially said THE SAME THING.

    And for the record, George Zimmerman is nothing but coward who deserves any ill tidings that come his way.

    Parent

    Can I be in for both? (none / 0) (#177)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 06:27:38 PM EST
    The jury (none / 0) (#182)
    by linea on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 08:45:36 PM EST
    Whatever instigated the incident, the jury was convinced that at some point Zimmerman was on the ground being brutally beaten and feared for his life.

    Entertainment Weekly:

    "All I go back to is the law," [Amy] Trunalone said. "That is what we have. We're a democracy, and what we've got is the law. We're to apply it blind to any other thing. At that moment, at that moment, did that person think their life was in jeopardy? That's the way you have to answer the question."


    Parent
    Under most states' self-defense laws (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 08:59:35 PM EST
    it matters a lot who first instigated or provoked the violence.

    Parent
    I'll say one thing (none / 0) (#190)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 11:30:45 PM EST
    I've been around the block and back a few times, and people would be surprised at the number guys who won't think twice about immediately going on offensive when someone within reach threatens them with a gun.

    Parent
    My Takeaway From the Case (none / 0) (#185)
    by RickyJim on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 09:04:19 PM EST
    Prosecutorial Misconduct

    1. Letting political considerations and fear of mob violence force an indictment when there was no probable cause to believe that it wasn't self defense.

    2. Trying to present bogus audio evidence that Trayvon was the one screaming for his life.  It was easily refuted at a Fry hearing just before the trial.

    If the program series doesn't explore these issues, it is worthless from the standpoint of rational discussion.

    Parent
    That seems extreme (4.00 / 1) (#187)
    by linea on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 09:29:16 PM EST
    Nobody knows what actually happened. It seems as though some sort of confrontation took place and one cannot argue that it was a clear and obvious case of self-defence. Additionally, Florida appears to have unique laws on self-defence. We have no idea how the same incident under, for example, Washington State laws would have been decided. My opinion.

    Parent
    That is Not the Criterion (1.00 / 1) (#196)
    by RickyJim on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 10:26:15 AM EST
    For an indictment, they had to show there is a probable cause for thinking it wasn't self defense.  The prosecution did not bring their evidence to a grand jury or a judge for holding a preliminary hearing.  Apparently Florida doesn't require it.  Instead they produced a flimsy 2 page affidavit that they stuck under a judge's nose.  He signed it without asking questions or letting the defense contest what was asserted in it.  It contained a distorted account of the Martin-Zimmerman confrontation, a la Benjamin Crump, with accompanying nonsense like Martin's mother was able to identify her son screaming on a 911 call tape.  None of the evidence exonerating Zimmerman was even mentioned. A disgrace!

    Parent
    How is Florida unique? (none / 0) (#194)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 09:24:07 AM EST
    My understanding is all states have the basic right of self defense that GZ used and about half of the states have Stand Your Ground which GZ didn't use.  

    A lot of people confuse SYG with regular self defense.

    Parent

    Yes, every states's criminal code includes (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Peter G on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 12:36:29 PM EST
    a justification for otherwise-criminal conduct in the nature of self-defense. But the nuances and differences among those formulations are endless. The discussion of these different ways of formulating the defense in the Model Penal Code Official Commentaries (1985) runs 47 printed pages. In my view (having taught both criminal law and "law and morality" at both the law school and undergraduate levels) every state's version of the self-defense rule is a mini-essay in moral philosophy. That is, when and under what circumstances is it permissible in our society -- indeed, when do we view it as a correct choice -- to use deadly force against another person? Nearly every state's legislature, with gloss by that state's courts, has injected one or more unique features into their response to that very challenging question. Including Florida, I'm sure, though I couldn't tell you exactly.

    Parent
    My takeaway (none / 0) (#188)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 09:40:45 PM EST
    If it DOES give credence to silly, tinfoil conspiracy theories such as those, "it's worthless from the standpoint of a rational discussion."

    Parent
    Re: `tinfoil conspiracy theories' (1.00 / 1) (#189)
    by linea on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 09:50:35 PM EST
    Jeralyn points out in the CNN clip (below) that lawyers for the family did in fact hijack the judicial process and the media did unfairly demonized the defendant.

    Parent
    demonized.. (none / 0) (#191)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 12:36:52 AM EST
    what sort of degenerate taunts a grieving family by posting pictures of their dead son online?

    That's the kind of sadistic sh*t you'd expect from a serial killer.


    Parent

    I forgot about the audio "expert" guy (none / 0) (#198)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 12:40:28 PM EST
    He had a machine that only he knew how to use and interpret.  


    Parent
    It's too bad there was an audio (none / 0) (#199)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 04:46:45 PM EST
    recorder working when Zimmerman called that bar manager a "n*gger lover."

    Which reminds me, did you put in a bid for Zimmerman's gun when it went up for auction?

    Parent

    Too bad there wasn't.. (none / 0) (#200)
    by jondee on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 04:47:34 PM EST
    Polls are closed in Ohio (none / 0) (#178)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 06:47:07 PM EST
    The early vote is expected to heavily favor O'Connor.

    So......

    Patiently waiting for the second update (none / 0) (#179)
    by CoralGables on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 07:14:19 PM EST
    The last two polls out of Ohio (none / 0) (#181)
    by CoralGables on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 08:27:36 PM EST
    One showing Balderson at +1 and one showing O'Connor at +1, both appear to be highly accurate.

    With where the few remaining votes (none / 0) (#184)
    by CoralGables on Tue Aug 07, 2018 at 09:02:52 PM EST
    are still being counted, it looks like an ever so slight lead for the Dem will flip into the R column before tabulating is through for the evening. With 91% reporting O'Connor leads by just 201 votes. This potential flip it blue isn't going to flip tonight.

    Parent
    Maybe in November (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 04:10:30 AM EST
    Another month (none / 0) (#195)
    by CST on Wed Aug 08, 2018 at 09:35:52 AM EST
    Another new nephew.  My parents had 3 daughters and now they have 4 grandsons.  In the spirit of their cousins, the second son of the second daughter is very easy going while his older brother is completely losing it.

    As the youngest myself I'd have to say younger kids are way more chill.