Pro Gun Control Rallies Across America Today

Today is Gun control Rally day across America. More than 800 rallies are planned. The sponsor is March for Your Lives, formed in the wake of the shootings in Parkland, FL. Photos are here. The NY Times reports (no link due to autoplay video)

On Saturday, the White House said in a statement, “We applaud the many courageous young Americans exercising their First Amendment rights today.”

Huge rallies are good catalysts for change. Those who participate feel the strength that comes with numbers. They believe change is possible and they are right. But they must convince Congress to act, and to do that, they have to stay dedicated and register to vote, and then follow-through by actually voting, particularly in the mid-term elections this year. [More...]

These marchers have the ability to undo the Republican majority in the House and Senate in November. Republicans are far more supportive of gun rights than Democrats.

The marchers' goal of reforming gun laws may not be on my wish list, but reducing Republican control in Congress is very much on my list, and anything that may contribute to doing so is a positive, in my view.

Denver's march is starting now. It will end a few blocks outside my window. There are police sirens blaring at the moment.

(The lack of links in this post is due to every news site I clicked on having auto play video.)

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    I was out and about running errands (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Anne on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 04:42:11 PM EST
    today, and listening to a lot of the rally via CSPAN radio - and I can't tell you how many times my eyes filled and my heart ached listening to speeches and poems that so eloquently expressed the grief, anger, and determination of these young people.  I was so proud of them.

    So, Trump plays golf, agonizes over whether he should start publicly fighting Stormy and Karen and Summer - because of all the terrible problems facing us, that's right at the top of the list -  and hundreds of elected representatives pretend that none of this is happening.  Some of them might want to spend some time this recess brushing up their resumes.

    There isn't just going to be a wave in November, I truly believe it's going to be a millennial wave.

    I am hopful, but (none / 0) (#51)
    by Towanda on Sun Mar 25, 2018 at 01:12:40 PM EST
    of the youngest voters in 2016, 18 to 29 year olds, only 30 percent voted.

    Fortunately, thee and we grandparents over 65 years old also marched, and we reseach candidates and knew that Bernie is beloved by the NRA, because 85 percent  of us voted in 2016.

    The millennials will outnumbere us boomers to n the population by 2020, so they had better get off their butts, use the r aearch skills that we boomer teachers taught them, and get to the polls.

    But ven in a state with one of the highest turnout rates for the youngest voters, I am not optimistic..Because change really does not happen overnight, and the history of voting patterns has been remarkably static.


    The head count for DC (5.00 / 6) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:12:18 PM EST
    Is coming in at 1 million. It was well organized and even though the streets were bursting everyone was gracious and courteous. I don't know how we all funneled in and funneled out, we just did.

    We sat with a marching couple at Legal Seafood Gallery Place who turned out to be ??? Lawyers. They both had served 8 yrs in the Clinton administration and the wife served 4 yrs in the Obama administration. Lovely people, beautiful day. The magnolia trees at the National Archives decided to bloom wildly.

    It's just me, but I need more DC marches. A few artists were selling original artwork t-shirts. I didn't see one that caught my eye this time, but the selection under Trump can only improve. If I must survive this buffoon I want souvenirs.

    I really envy your being there (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:16:44 PM EST
    Yeah, (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:19:55 PM EST
    I do too though we did a pretty good job here in GA for a red state.

    The closest march here was (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:23:08 PM EST
    Pretty far away.  Not a good excuse I know but not easy to get a baby sitter.

    I wish you all could have been here (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:31:27 PM EST
    What a great time we would have had! I know the soul of DC struggles under Trump. Today the black cloud lifted. Everyone was so happy, even the people working to feed marchers were glowing.

    And I know it won't be long before John Bolton doubles everyone's black cloud no matter where you hang your hat. By God we had today though, people are readying for the midterms.

    Maggie Habermann tweeted that she "got word" someone else in the Trump administration is getting the boot this coming week. I guessed Kelly, my husband said it might be Mattis...that Bolton might want Mattis gone right out of the gate. God forbid, I hadn't even thought of that.


    Rumors about (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:43:52 PM EST
    Shulkin and Carson

    200,000 in DC according to (none / 0) (#57)
    by ragebot on Sun Mar 25, 2018 at 11:50:29 PM EST
    The peak crowd size was 202,796 people, with a margin of error of 15 percent, the firm said.

    Not sure where you got the one million number.  Maybe from the same place that said Clinton would beat Trump.


    200,000 was only the metro users total (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 10:32:02 AM EST
    At 1:00 pm. Thousands of other marchers stayed overnight downtown in the churches and inside the beltway homes and the hotels were booked. Thousands were also bussed in. I rode in from the end of the red line Glenmont station. The parking garage was completely packed. No spaces left. I have never seen that on a weekend ever. But keep watching Fox News.

    Readinc comprehension is your friend (none / 0) (#67)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 10:38:50 AM EST
    The link was to CBS news.

    I guess you didnt read that link (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 10:46:13 AM EST
    200,000 was a peak count at the National Archives taken at 1:00., We all didnt go at noon though. We had to wait for our son to attend calculus tutoring, many people rode in with us. We arrived around 1:30. As we headed in, we passed elderly and people with small children And babies going home. Some marchers had been downtown all morning and marched to the final destination and needed to go home.

    The link I read said this: (none / 0) (#77)
    by Anne on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:31:39 AM EST
    The Virginia-based firm uses a proprietary method for calculating crowd size using aerial photos.

    But here's another measure:

    In the absence of an official figure, some other attendance gauges have emerged. WMATA, the local agency in Washington responsible for the city's metro system, reported total ticketed ridership at 558,735 for the entire day, which it said at midday was two-and-a-half times the volume of a normal Saturday.

    At 1:00 all the restaurants (none / 0) (#78)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:43:23 AM EST
    Around Archives and Chinatown were full. Marchers needed to eat, and the march to Archives began at noon.

    I think an aerial photo at 1 is a rough way to attempt to figure out numbers at that time.

    I don't how many the restaurants in that area can hold, but it's not a tiny number considering the government employees and tourists they feed lunch to Monday through Friday.

    We waited 1/2 hour for a table at Legal Seafood in Chinatown, but there was so much to see on the sidewalk it wasn't terrible waiting. We were seated at 4:00.


    If so, they'd be accurate (none / 0) (#72)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 10:59:34 AM EST
    Not sure where you got the one million number.  Maybe from the same place that said Clinton would beat Trump.

    The polls had Clinton up by an average of 3.2%.  She win by 2.1%.  The polling numbers were very accurate.


    We are careening off topic (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 07:00:56 PM EST
    But it said what galls him most is that she is going to say he was a crappy lay.  Boring conventional quickie.

    Awsum.  You know he will HATE that.

    yes you way off topic (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Mar 25, 2018 at 07:36:14 PM EST
    I'm cleaning the thread.

    FOX has a new poll with some very interesting (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Mar 25, 2018 at 08:09:22 AM EST
    Results.  Remember this is a FIX NEWS poll.

    Which is more important to protect -

    Citizens from guns 53%

    Right to own guns 40%

    In favor

    Universal BG checks 91%
    Ban assault weapons 60%

    All this talk about restricting guns (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by CST on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 08:40:57 AM EST
    I feel like no one has brought up the option of restricting ammo.  That's basically what Switzerland does - everyone has a gun, no one gets bullets.

    You could set it up so people can buy bullets at the range for use there, without the ability to take them home.  For hunting, you are only entitled to a limited amount, and every bullet gets tracked.

    Sure, some people can probably then go on to make their own bullets at home and bypass the law, but I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of criminals won't.

    Could work, or not (none / 0) (#61)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 09:07:37 AM EST
    But there are problems.  Comments like this high light how folks with little knowledge about small arms propose unworkable solutions.  The most common round in the US is the rim fired .22; something you really can't reload.  If you go to any range you will meet some guy who comes around with a broom just before closing and sweeps up the brass to take to a reloader.  A lot of local gun shops (as opposed to chains like Dicks or Walmart) make the majority of their income from selling reloads.  Most every serious shooter I know reloads.  Same goes for the scout/snipers when I was on active duty; they all reloaded with specific reloads for specific distances.  Even some non serious shooters reload to save money.  The standard advice for sport shooters is the best thing you can do to improve your shooting is buy 2,000 rounds of ammo.  And this ignores 2A issues.  

    Not to mention the standard argument that if guns were outlawed only outlaws would have guns.  The Las Vegas shooter fired something like 1,300 rounds and likely holds the record for most rounds fired.  Of those very few hit people.  If criminals are able to obtain guns illegally it would be much easier to obtain ammo illegally.

    It is also clear that that the Parkland shooter had mental issues that should have prevented him from getting weapons.  For what ever reason he slipped through the cracks.

    Seems like your solution would cause problems for the legit shooters and not really stop the criminals as well as have 2A issues.


    "For some reason," the State of (none / 0) (#64)
    by Anne on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 09:46:19 AM EST
    Florida doesn't think there should be any but the most minimal and cursory safeguards involved in the purchase and sale of guns of all kinds.

    That's not a crack, that's a Grand Canyon-sized chasm.  And it came courtesy of the involvement of Marion Hammer, an NRA lobbyist:

    Hammer is the National Rifle Association's Florida lobbyist. At seventy-eight years old, she is nearing four decades as the most influential gun lobbyist in the United States. Her policies have elevated Florida's gun owners to a uniquely privileged status, and made the public carrying of firearms a fact of daily life in the state. Daley was referring to a law that Hammer worked to enact in 2011, during Governor Rick Scott's first year in office. The statute punishes local officials who attempt to establish gun regulations stricter than those imposed at the state level. Officials can be fined thousands of dollars and removed from office.


    From this office, Hammer has shepherded laws into existence that have dramatically altered long-held American norms and legal principles. In the eighties, she crafted a statute that allows anyone who can legally purchase a firearm to carry a concealed handgun in public, as long as that person pays a small fee for a state-issued permit and completes a rudimentary training course. The law has been duplicated, in some form, in almost every state, and more than sixteen million Americans now have licenses to carry a concealed handgun.

    In the early two-thousands, Hammer created the country's first Stand Your Ground self-defense law, authorizing the use of lethal force in response to a perceived threat. Some two dozen states have adopted a version of Stand Your Ground, giving concealed-carry permit holders wide discretion over when they can shoot another person.

    This is a really long article, but it is well worth reading, and will answer any questions you have about why or how someone like Nicolas Cruz "slipped through the cracks."

    And there are plenty of other states with equally lax laws and minimal regulations.


    It was a long article (none / 0) (#79)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:45:14 AM EST
    but I found nothing in it about background checks. Here is a link to the background check form you have to fill out; ATF Form 4473.  Note the questions you have to answer in section A part 11.  They cover convictions, drug use, and mental health issues; as well as several other things.  The form is submitted to FDLE for an online confirmation of the answers.

    There have been multiple sources detailing how Cruz was on the LEOs radar.  The school system knew he was violent and unstable and sent him to several shrinks.  He physically assaulted family members, class mates, and posted things in social media that would raise flags.

    At one time Broward County ranked first in the state in number of high school student arrests.  

    In 2011-12, Broward County officers made 1,062 school-related arrests. That dropped to 392 in 2015-16, putting the rate of school-related arrests among the lowest in the state.

    The drop in arrests was the result of Broward Count rewriting  its disciplinary procedures to avoid referrals to law enforcement.  Do you really think if a student throws a desk at another student and hits him or a student kicks down the door to a class room it should not be referred to LEOs.  Cruz did both of these things and had around 45, or more, contacts with LEOs.  Yet no arrests.  

    If Broward County had simply charged Cruz for any of his violent outbursts or the shrinks had noted his violent acts and instability he would not have passed a background check.  Problem for Broward County School System is he would have bumped up the minority crime stats.  That is why he slid through the cracks.


    You were the one musing, rather (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Anne on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 02:40:52 PM EST
    disingenuously, I thought, about how Cruz had slipped through the cracks - the article highlights how iron-fisted control of the legislature by the NRA created the loopholes and cracks that make it possible for people who shouldn't have weapons to have as many of them as they want.

    You can ignore that if you like, but it doesn't speak well of any of the arguments you're making, which, sad to say, always seem to come down to rhetorically shrugging your shoulders about how nothing in the way of regulation will be able to address the problems.

    There isn't nothing that can be done, and the things that can be done can make a difference.


    Many Latinos don't think they are minority (none / 0) (#88)
    by vicndabx on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:34:00 PM EST
    since many consider themselves white. If anything, he would've bumped up the white kid crime stats.

    Problem for Broward County School System is he would have bumped up the minority crime stats.  That is why he slid through the cracks.

    I see what you did there.

    You might have had a valid point maybe if you just talked about how schools try to shield students from a raw deal their whole life - a noble idea IMO. Alternatively, let's discuss the need for a mental health database that can be checked at the gun POS.

    Stop trying to blame black youths for what is essentially a white male caused problem.


    to be very clear (none / 0) (#73)
    by CST on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:03:12 AM EST
    I'm saying you should be able to buy/rent bullets at the range and take none of them home.  Zero.  Not the ones you shot, not ones you haven't shot.

    There is no second amendment issue regarding ammo.

    And your standard argument is a terrible argument as everyone would still be able to have guns - you just wouldn't be able to have much ammo of your own.

    The point you're also missing is that these "criminals" didn't obtain guns illegally.  And when they do - usually that means they buy them legally in one state where it's legal and transport them illegally to another state - not that they were originally purchased illegally.  Which is why nationwide laws are so important.

    Seems like every solution would "cause problems for the legit shooters and not really stop the criminals as well as have 2A issues" according to NRA supporters - absent any evidence and with lots of evidence that it seems to work just fine in other places.


    2A problems (none / 0) (#80)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:46:17 AM EST
    with your idea

    such as? (none / 0) (#81)
    by CST on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:49:36 AM EST
    Saying something over and over doesn't make it true.

    To the best of my knowledge the supreme court hasn't issued a decision on the matter one way or the other.


    What David Hogg just did (5.00 / 3) (#115)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Mar 29, 2018 at 02:20:09 PM EST
    To Laura Ingraham was a wonderful thing

    Facing boycott, Laura Ingraham apologizes for tweet about David Hogg's college rejections

    Welcome to the age of social media Laura

    She's another Fox piece of work.. (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by jondee on Fri Mar 30, 2018 at 11:07:52 AM EST
    with her big gold cross to remind the folks at home of how christian she is while she's trafficing in lowball sleazy innuendo and character assassination..

    But then, she was engaged to D'Souza at one time. What more do you really need to know about her standards and values?


    It seems strange to me (1.00 / 4) (#7)
    by itscookin on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 05:36:52 PM EST
    that young people are marching to give up their rights. Usually the youth want more rights, not fewer. If we wanted to protect young people, taking away their cellphones would save around 300 of them every year, but I'm sure they wouldn't be marching in support of that. We'd be hearing about it's their right to have their own phone even if 11 of them die every month from texting and driving. We could save even more if we raised the age of majority to 26, the age we've decided to make them responsible for their own health insurance. No drinking, no smoking. no driving until they're 26. But they'd be marching against that, too. Today is an anti-gun, anti-Trump rally, and that's OK. But wrapping it up as a rally to support the kids is laughable.

    It shouldn't seem strange (5.00 / 8) (#9)
    by Yman on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 05:59:47 PM EST
    What "rights" do you think they are marching to give up?  Presumably, you're talking about guns.  The "right" to buy a gun without a background check?  The "right" to own an assault weapon?  The "right" to buy high capacity magazines?

    Those aren't "rights".


    The only purpose (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:04:44 PM EST
    guns have are to kill. Cell phones have a use other than causing accidents. This is a major logic fail.

    Just treat guns like cars. I would say Americans have largely proven to the entire world that we cannot handle guns. We have more gun deaths per capita than any other western country. Couching it in the rhetoric of the NRA has been the problem. The NRA wants us to all throw our hands up and the country to be like Somalia where you cannot walk down the street without being shot. They do not have the country's best interests at heart. I have been saying for a long time now those gun owners that are responsible have been doing themselves a disservice by letting the NRA speak for them.


    Sensible gun control is a very longtime (5.00 / 5) (#29)
    by caseyOR on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:49:00 PM EST
    battle. I mean decades long. When I was in ninth grade, way back in the mid-1960s, our debate topic was gun control.  This was before the AR-15 became a p#nis substitute. Before the NRA went completely around-the-bend. Before politicians completely sold their souls to the NRA.

     These kids are very savvy. They understand how the media works. They know that the lifeblood of politics is money. They are determined to beat the NRA when it comes to getting the political votes. What they are doing to Marco Rubio is great. They call out his cowardice and greed at every opportunity. Other NRA owned politicians should take note.

    So, a glimmer of hope in these hopeless Trump years.


    "The only purpose guns have" (none / 0) (#52)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sun Mar 25, 2018 at 03:07:52 PM EST
    "The only purpose guns have are to kill."

    Well, estimates are that several billion rounds were sold to the civilian market last year. Not all of them were fired, but a lot were. Maybe a billion? Doesn't really matter exactly how many, it's clear that people are using guns almost entirely not to kill.


    People practicing to kill people (none / 0) (#53)
    by MKS on Sun Mar 25, 2018 at 06:38:33 PM EST
    same difference.

    Well that's harsh (none / 0) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Mar 25, 2018 at 07:04:50 PM EST
    One thing tho
    The people defending AR15s often say "well, we like shooting.  It's fun."

    I'm sure it is but lots of things that are fun are not legal.  Things a lot more innocuous that assault weapons.


    I love shooting (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by CST on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:22:27 AM EST
    It's super fun and cathartic and relaxing in a weird way.

    But that doesn't mean it should be easy.


    I agree (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:24:49 AM EST
    You'll like this (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 05:49:14 PM EST
    Here, Lou Dobbs and company hit every cliché in the book to discredit them

    Absolutely vile.

    DOM GIORDANO: That's what the march is gonna be about tomorrow, Lou. As you know, I'm an educator, and I see these kids, the Parkland kids, a couple of them are out of control.

    LOU DOBBS (HOST): Isn't that disgusting? I mean, we're tuning in to high school assemblies, to get the aggregated wisdom of 18-year-olds. I mean, this is really --

    GINA LOUDON: Who by their own words, Lou, say that they shouldn't be able to own guns even though they can go to war but they think that they should be able to make laws. None of this makes any sense at all. And the very fact that we are giving such gravitas to people who just -- they haven't had enough life experience, yet, Lou, to be experts on much of anything yet. And I don't think -- it's not insulting them to say that.


    GIORDANO: I have to say too, Lou, as an educator, there's a couple of these kids that are just rude in the way that they proceed here, as if they are bulletproof, so to speak. But the media is almost laundering their own opinions through these kids.

    DOBBS: Let's find another -- let's find another noun next time. (chuckling)

    Wow, they haven't had enough (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 07:18:43 PM EST
    Life experience?

    They've experienced 6 minutes of life and death that I haven't experienced. I have this odd goal too of never experiencing that. I don't want my children or grandchildren experiencing it either. Some trauma experiences can never be fully healed. It just isn't worth it ever so I can own an assault weapon if I want one.


    I had six months of life experience (none / 0) (#58)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:09:08 AM EST
    in country before being wounded.  Saw lots of others 17, 18, and 19 year olds who went through the same life experience.  And the daily death count was a lot higher than 17.  Not sure what it was like for those in the ME but in SE Asia many were drafted or joined to avoid the draft and a better MOS.

    When I got back to the US I was stationed at Ft. Belvior H&H Company, 1st Batt. 2Nd Brig. US 5th Army.  Which was where the United States Military Academy Preparatory School was located at the time.  Met a two star who taught at the War College who was visiting USMAPS and he made a comment that really stuck with me.  He said "Nothing has been so consistent through out history than the call to end war.  Except war itself."

    I don't want to see any more killing.  But I am not kidding myself about it ending.


    Sure (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 08:07:35 AM EST
    And US streets, concerts, schools aren't a combat zone. At least not yet. I find no value in encouraging any society to develop combat trauma either.

    The continuing suicide crisis that the combat veterans fight everyday, I don't need to think that is acceptable for the whole country and if it happens to everyone so what?


    The only combat zone in the (none / 0) (#87)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:29:01 PM EST
    US is on the roads.  There was a lot of analysis claiming the turning point in VietNam was when the number of yearly deaths there got to the level of yearly deaths due to auto accidents.

    Some stats claim that the 17 deaths at Parkland are the same as the daily 17 deaths due to auto accidents due to driving while texting.

    While it is tragic when children are killed in school it is very rare thing; while every day many more die for a wide range of causes.

    The claim that US has too many gun deaths compared to other countries is somewhat refuted by looking at the details of those deaths.  If you remove Los Angles, New Orleans, Chicago from the stats the US looks much better.  Even in those three cities the deaths are very localized and gang and drug related.  Not easy to see how stricter laws would apply to gangs or drug dealers.


    Funny enough (none / 0) (#89)
    by CST on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:38:47 PM EST
    There are gangs and drug dealers in London, Paris, Berlin, hell - Boston.  And yet with stricter gun laws in those places, those gangs and drug dealers don't kill nearly as many people.

    Strange how that happens no?  (No.)


    The best part of today (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 07:20:27 PM EST
    is exactly what Giordano said. "Rude." I loved every rude word of it. The did not make nice gracious speeches today in DC. They told the NRA lackeys and toadies "we are coming for you." No bread crumbs, no thoughts and prayers. Eff you. I loved it. Good on those kids. All power to the people.

    Note to Lou (none / 0) (#21)
    by KeysDan on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:23:28 PM EST
    and Gina:  A country that hates its youth has no future.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:32:21 PM EST
    I guess.  The thing is I grew up being hated probably even more by the "Dobbs" of the time.  At least they were not making an issue of his they "probably smell".

    But Dobbs and others just add to the eerie feeling I have seen this before

    And the scariest part for Dobbs and his ilk is they are every bit as uncompromising as we were.

    Anne mentioned "hey hey LBJ/NRA how many kids did you kill today"

    That was harsh on Lyndon.  But it probably saved lives.  These kids are the same.  Mocking the bump stock thing.  They are not going to sit down and shut up.

    Hate all they want.


    No one's killing people with cell phones. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Anne on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 08:15:45 PM EST
    And I think the right they were marching for is the right not to be killed by someone with a gun.

    And no one seems to be laughing, either.


    Odds are (none / 0) (#54)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Mar 25, 2018 at 06:51:43 PM EST
    ...you won't be back to defend that statement.

    There are already some comments (none / 0) (#1)
    by Peter G on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 03:08:37 PM EST
    on the rallies on yesterday's "LV Shooter" thread, including mine from Philadelphia, and one from L.A. by DfH.

    I actually just saw (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 04:07:58 PM EST
    The 6:20 of silence.  Wow.  That was so brilliant.

    Some of these kids including Emma could well not just be casting votes but getting votes


    Here is that (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 04:21:49 PM EST

    So powerful. You never get silence on tv.  As the bobble heads said, silence is uncomfortable.  Your mind starts trying to fill it.  You can not help feeling just how long 6:20 could be if you are being hunted.

    One kid said it reminded him of the silence in the homes and at the dinner tables of the dead kids.

    It was something.  It's the headline of the day and the thing that will be most remembered.


    Along with (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 08:48:20 PM EST
    The awsum upchuck

    There is a very large focus (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 03:31:08 PM EST
    On voting and registering to vote.  The bad news for republicans is that large numbers of those in the street today can vote this year and many more in 20.

    Watching this I get the feeling it's not a flash in the pan.

    I think people of that age love having a cause.  Remember how dedicated we were to ours?  The truth is we won a great many of those issues.  I think this is the new cause.

    It's so basic.  I want to feel safe in school.  And even better they are virtually impervious to the attacks so effectively used before

    This is a big day.  A great day.

    My comment in the last thread was I would like to have the liquor contract for the NRA and their toadies today.  The threat to their death grip on DC could not be more clear

    Dunno (none / 0) (#3)
    by linea on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 03:59:23 PM EST
    Exactly what legislation is March For Our Lives proposing?

    The FB page you linked to ... (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Yman on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:01:26 PM EST
    ... has a link right to their website and mission statement.

    I read that (none / 0) (#12)
    by linea on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:08:42 PM EST
    before posting the link. Duh.

    It would be better if they listed what specific legislation they want passed. In my opinion.


    So you want these kids ... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Yman on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:12:20 PM EST
    ... to draft legislation so you can read it and provide your interpretation of it.



    There is one thing they all (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:20:54 PM EST
    Made crystal clear, any politicians taking gun lobbying money they are coming after. They don't care who the politician is.

    All who spoke today want assault weapons and large clips banned, and they want rigorous  background checks.


    They are definitely (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:24:23 PM EST
    coming for Marco Rubio. He's is one of the biggest NRA whores in the senate and he represents their state. He would already be gone were it not for the way things shook out in '16.

    The march turnout in Parkland FL (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:41:56 PM EST
    Wasn't small either.

    Between the 6 minutes of silence and kids recording during the shooting, allowing us to see their texts and hearing their 911 conversations, average folks cant hide from the reality anymore.

    I would have thought Vegas would have gotten us around that corner, but it didn't.


    I thought Sandy Hook was it. (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by vml68 on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 09:15:09 PM EST
    I was so sure this country would say no more, I was wrong.

    I would have thought Vegas would have gotten us around that corner

    I actually talked to Lenny Pozner (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 09:52:58 PM EST
    online awhile back. All Sandy Hook did was bring as*holes out of the woodwork in this country that even a cynical guy like me didn't know existed.

    After Sandy Hook, when the pictures of the (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by vml68 on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 10:24:48 PM EST
    kids were being published, for some reason, of all the beautiful little faces, this picture of Noah is the one that really got to me. When I think of Sandy Hook, that is the face that instantly pops up in my mind.

    I was absolutely shocked and horrified to read this article last year. I knew there were absolute dregs of humanity out there claiming that Sandy Hook was a hoax, but I had no idea they were actually contacting family members and harassing them. I don't know how Lenny Pozner manages to hang on to his sanity.


    It truly boggles the mind (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 11:45:54 PM EST
    and no matter how much they try to deny it, or say look over there, these are some of the new generation of right wing-NRA shock troops that talk radio, Fox, and the Trump's dog whistle to..a bunch of vicious, dangerously divorced from reality, people who I wouldn't allow to have a pocket knife, let alone a gun.

    Does everyone know (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by linea on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:43:36 PM EST
    That there already was a `assault style weapon' and large magazine ban?

    The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB)--officially, the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act--is a subsection of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a United States federal law that included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms it defined as assault weapons, as well as certain ammunition magazines it defined as "large capacity".

    The ten-year ban was passed by the U.S. Congress on September 13, 1994, following a close 52-48 vote in the Senate, and signed into law by then President Bill Clinton the same day. The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment, and it expired on September 13, 2004, in accordance with its sunset provision.

    Yes (5.00 / 11) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:46:58 PM EST
    All of us here knew this.

    Did you know the Bush administration deliberately allowed it to expire?


    Hnestly, I have trouble ... (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by Yman on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 07:34:17 PM EST
    ... telling whether this is a serious question or not.

    No joke.


    Maybe you can (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:12:32 PM EST
    Write that up for them.

    Actually (none / 0) (#17)
    by linea on Sat Mar 24, 2018 at 06:17:26 PM EST
    After some search, I found this on their website under Action > Sign the Petition.

    Our elected officials MUST ACT by:

    (1.) Passing a law to ban the sale of assault weapons like the ones used in Las Vegas, Orlando, Sutherland Springs, Aurora, Sandy Hook and, most recently, to kill 17 innocent people and injure more than a dozen others at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

    (2.) Prohibiting the sale of high-capacity magazines such as the ones the shooter at our school--and so many other recent mass shootings used.

    (3.) Closing the loophole in our background check law that allows dangerous people who shouldn't be allowed to purchase firearms to slip through the cracks and buy guns online or at gun shows.  

    Had to laugh (none / 0) (#63)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 09:28:29 AM EST
    at the (3) section.  I just got a Tikka Lite.  One of my friends is somewhat anti gun and I suggested he accompany me to the local gun shop where I picked it up.  When I walked up to the counter the first thing the guy said was drivers license and CCL license without batting an eye.  He looked at the pix on both IDs and then directed me to a computer where I went online and filled out a form with not only the normal address, phone number, ect., but asking for my SSN as well.  With the disclaimer that while the law says SSN are not to be used for ID not providing it not providing it would slow things down.  

    My friend and I then inspected the Tikka and he commented on the quality of the rifle.  We looked at two other rifles and he commented they did not match the tight smooth build of the Tikka.  We then talked to the owner of the store.  Then to one of the employees.  My friend then walked over to the computer screen and asked the employee there about the background check progress; he was told it was slow.  After waiting over an hour my friend loudly commented that the slow background check was a ruse to get my/us to buy other stuff in the store.

    Even with a CCL, which requires finger printing and a copy of my DD214 there are real delays in the background check which my friend found hard to understand.  He is a computer consultant who has worked on large projects for the Florida government providing health services to low income folks.  He said the delay in the FDLE background check system are not acceptable.  Before this incident he had complained to me that folks were able to freely buy guns.  But after waiting with me to pick up mine he had a much different view.  Just as an aside the same background check is required at gun shows in Florida.  And Florida is often viewed as a  wide open state for gun sales.

    Seems like folks wanting better background checks for gun sales need a reality check.


    Curious. (none / 0) (#65)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 10:09:19 AM EST
    I have no clue as to Florida carry permit law. But you had to provide a copy of your DD214? A CCL is only available to vets? Lots of people, especially nowadays don't have DD214s (they didn't serve).

    CCL in (none / 0) (#82)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:54:02 AM EST
    Florida have requirements including classroom education about firearms.  In lieu of the education you can submit a DD214 since the military provides firearm education.

    The Tikka Lite is a good looking rifle. (none / 0) (#83)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:05:14 PM EST
    You had to show a CCL to buy it?

    Not to buy (none / 0) (#85)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:18:27 PM EST
    CCL avoids the 3 day waiting period.

    Gotcha, thanks. (none / 0) (#86)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:28:48 PM EST
    Interesting. (none / 0) (#94)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 02:06:39 PM EST
    Does it matter what job you performed? MOS or rating (Navy)? Or is the assumption that just because you were in the military, you are somehow qualified with any firearm? I was a US Navy Yeoman. Essentially a clerk typist. I never handled a firearm ever in the Navy. Not even boot camp. I do have a DD214.

    My (none / 0) (#106)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 05:16:47 PM EST
    DD214 contained a list of all medals awarded.  Including the ones for marksmanship.  I qualified as a marksman with the M14, Colt 1911, and RPG.  Not to mention my MOS was 11B40; Combat Rifleman.  Not sure what is on your DD214 but I suspect it would be easy to look at it and see just what small arms training you had.

    What part of (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 06:54:19 PM EST
    "I never handled a firearm ever in the Navy," didn't you quite comprehend? It didn't happen. There is nothing in my DD214 (I can read).

    My daughter received a Florida concealed carry (none / 0) (#96)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 02:34:52 PM EST
    Permit last year that is honored in Alabama, and no proof of firearms training was required for her. She has never attended any firearms training course outside of her boyfriend. She's got the permit though.

    I am really be interested in how she (none / 0) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 02:45:19 PM EST
    finagled that.

    (2) The Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services shall issue a license if the applicant:


    (h) Demonstrates competence with a firearm by any one of the following:
    1. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency of another state;
    2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
    3. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, using instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;
    4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of a law enforcement agency or security enforcement;
    5. Presents evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or military service;
    6. Is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or a county or municipality of this state, unless such license has been revoked for cause; or
    7. Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor;

    A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document that shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph. A person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm in his or her physical presence and that the discharge of the firearm included live fire using a firearm and ammunition as defined in s. 790.001;

    How and why, even. (none / 0) (#99)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 02:47:40 PM EST
    She didn't have to I guess (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 03:17:21 PM EST
    After reading ragebot I asked her via text if she received training for her concealed carry permit she obtained last year. She responded no. I didn't think she had. She was terrified of the gun. She's got it though and the panhandle is shady AF ;)

    And Why? (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 03:39:36 PM EST
    I love this bull$hit that people will simply self police. No they won't, they take the shortest route possible everytime. That is actually majority human nature.

    My daughter knows several LEOs. I'm going to assume that for a small fee you just get a cert from some of them.

    I do know a woman my age who did take a "course" from a local officer who could give out the certs. She was excited to tell me about her one day course where she practiced driving up on a bad situation in a car, firing out the window while she was driving, stopping the car, exiting the car, and continuing to kill the bad guys. She thought it was great. I thought she was out of her mind. And she kept forgetting to take her gun out of her purse for football game attendance. I'm probably lucky half the crowd didn't blow their own heads off jumping up and down in the stands :)


    As Yman posted (none / 0) (#105)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 05:12:05 PM EST
    Anecdotes are nice (none / 0) (#74)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:10:47 AM EST
    ... but not remotely convincing.

    I knew guys who paid someone to take their LSAT test.  It is always possible to find crooks who will provide fake creds.  But that does not mean there are not legit CCL courses as well.  As for shooting while driving I find that just silly.


    by fraud.

    That is actually majority human nature, you see.


    So now my daughter is a crook (none / 0) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Mar 27, 2018 at 05:15:24 AM EST
    Because an Alabama law enforcement officer thinks just signing it is training enough?

    Well, everybody makes their own choices. (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Mar 27, 2018 at 03:22:37 PM EST
    Sometimes those choices are made w/o really thinking it through. Potential felony gun possession is not something I'd personally choose to flirt with.

    I got more firearms training (none / 0) (#100)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 03:01:36 PM EST
    during a Special Services summer camp program when I was 11 in Yokosuka, Japan than I did my entire time in the Navy. They taught us to shoot with single shot .22s.

    Anecdotes are nice (none / 0) (#74)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 11:10:47 AM EST
    ... but not remotely convincing.  How long do the checks take on average?  How about from private sellers?

    The time (none / 0) (#84)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:13:38 PM EST
    is variable.  Once ATF Form 4473 is filled out online a FDLE employee looks it over for obvious errors like someone saying they are an illegal alien with outstanding felony warrants or other section 11 violations who is currently using illegal drugs and has a protective order in effect for domestic violence and does not meet age requirements.  Then the FDLE employee does online checks with other agencies to make sure the answers to questions like outstanding warrants or legal residency are really the case.  Not sure if putting, or not putting in the SSN really makes a difference in time it takes; but 4473 says a SSN may speed thing up.  Obviously the number of FDLE employees assigned to verify the form and how busy the places they check answers with will affect time.  Not to mention the local gun store may have only one employee who could be serving another customer when the OK comes through.  I have seen it literally take two minutes; and at other times I went to Walmart to shop and came back hours later.  If you don't have a CCL there is a three day waiting period so the wait time can be moot.

    Not sure what you mean by private sellers.  There is a MickeyDs in a bad section of Tallahassee where the LEOs are called several times a month about shootings that seem to be gang related; usually in the parking lot after 1:00AM on weekends.  Undercover LEOs have often bought guns there from private sellers who do not conduct background checks.  I suspect the same is true for most private sellers.  I have no personal experience with private sellers


    That was a very long ... (none / 0) (#90)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 12:56:24 PM EST
    ... way of saying "I don't know."

    As far as "private sellers", I was referring to legal sales by non-dealers (through websites, gun shows, etc.), where in Florida it's incredibly easy to buy a gun without doing a background check on buyers.

    But you already knew that.


    Wrong on the facts (none / 0) (#92)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 01:15:39 PM EST
    and there is no way to sugar coat it.

    Private sellers are limited to two guns for sale at gun shows which was probably done to move thing out of the parking lot.  There are also undercover agents at gun shows.  Problem is if private parties wish to buy/sell things there is really not much that can be done except by undercover buys.  

    Not sure which websites you are talking about but unless you provide a link to a website selling small arms without the services of a FFL I am calling BS on that.  The ect. you mention is what I call MickeyD parking lot sales which includes all street corner sales.

    Think about private drug sales.  There is really no way to control it.  Same goes for private gun sales.  How would you ever be able to compel background checks when two peeps are meeting in private to complete a transaction; be it for heroin, counterfeit money, or small arms.


    Yes - you are wrong ... (none / 0) (#104)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 05:01:39 PM EST
    ... on the facts - and the law.

    Private sellers are limited to two guns for sale at gun shows which was probably done to move thing out of the parking lot.  There are also undercover agents at gun shows.  Problem is if private parties wish to buy/sell things there is really not much that can be done except by undercover buys.

    That's nice.  Now take a look at what I actually wrote.

    As far as "private sellers", I was referring to legal sales by non-dealers (through websites, gun shows, etc.), where in Florida it's incredibly easy to buy a gun without doing a background check on buyers

    See the difference?  It's what we call a strawman argument.  Can't refute a point?  Bring up a different issue and pretend you did.

    Background checks are not required in private gun sales in the state of Florida, according to state law. If a convicted felon, a mentally ill person or an underage person privately bought a gun, the state of Florida wouldn't know. And under Florida law, it's illegal to create a database of gun owners.


    Not sure which websites you are talking about but unless you provide a link to a website selling small arms without the services of a FFL I am calling BS on that.

    You can "call BS" all you want - doesn't change reality.

    But Jim Hathcock, with St.Pete Guns, says there are websites catered specifically to buying and selling guns.

    We're not releasing the name of those sites for safety purposes, but we did try to buy a rifle.

    In a few minutes, we received an email saying all they wanted was a valid Florida ID and to pay cash. They mentioned it was a bonus if we had a Concealed Weapons Permit, but it wasn't necessary.

    But internet aside, if you buy a gun from a friend or neighbor, there would be no record of it.

    Think about private drug sales.  There is really no way to control it.  Same goes for private gun sales.  How would you ever be able to compel background checks when two peeps are meeting in private to complete a transaction; be it for heroin, counterfeit money, or small arms.

    This one always cracks me up.  By this logic, we would outlaw literally nothing, since someone will no doubt break the law and it's impossible to prevent every violation.  Someone wants a machine gun?  Sure.  No way to stop it.  RPG?  Sure - why not.  Child p0r0graphy?  Can't stop it, so why criminalize it?  Murder?  Nope - murderers will still murder.

    Soooo ridiculous.


    The reality is in the headline of your link (none / 0) (#107)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 05:43:29 PM EST
    Private gun sales: A loophole that would still exist with stricter gun laws.

    You seemed to have missed the point.  There is no law, existing or proposed, that would stop private sellers from selling with no background check.

    This blurb from your link raises several issues.

    But Jim Hathcock, with St.Pete Guns, says there are websites catered specifically to buying and selling guns.
    We're not releasing the name of those sites for safety purposes, but we did try to buy a rifle.
    In a few minutes, we received an email saying all they wanted was a valid Florida ID and to pay cash.

    First off I would feel much more comfortable if Hathcock went on to say he turned this information over to ATF/FDLE/other LEOs and those sites were shut down as a result.  Seems like something any legit gun dealer would do, if only to help protect their profits.  Not to mention being a good citizen.

    Have to laugh at the "pay cash" requirement.  The first thing that comes to mind is was the cash to be sent to a Nigerian prince.  Anyone stupid enough to send cash to an unknown party they met on the internet probably does not have an IQ above room temperature.

    But this blurb from your link really sums thing up.

    Laws being proposed in Tallahassee would make it harder to buy a gun> But the black market, Hathcock says, will be easy access for people to get what they want.
    Now, let's talk about closing loopholes. Lawmakers can make stricter gun laws, but people can still get around them.

    I have no problem with strict background checks.  In fact I am in favor of something along the lines of CCL required training for gun purchase.  But I also am realistic about nothing being able to stop folks from using what are called loopholes to acquire weapons they legally should not be able to get.


    I couldn't care less ... (none / 0) (#111)
    by Yman on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 07:06:17 PM EST
    ... about what makes you comfortable, what you think will work or won't work, or what you find acceptable in terms of gun control.  You "seemed to have missed the point" - several times - about whether Florida law permits people to but guns from private sellers without a background check and whether you can do the same through websites.

    You can.


    The (none / 0) (#62)
    by FlJoe on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 09:20:49 AM EST
    Frothy one comes up with a brilliant idea
    How about kids, instead of looking to someone else to solve their problem, do something about maybe taking CPR classes, or try to deal with situations where there is some violence and how you actually respond to that?
    But why not go one step further, why not turn summer camp into boot camp? Or maybe have the Scouts offer combat medic merit badges.

    Sharply refuted by numerous ER docs (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peter G on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 10:45:16 AM EST
    who point out that CPR is meaningless as a response to someone bleeding to death from the kinds of injuries that an AR-15 causes.

    Yes, true. (none / 0) (#103)
    by Zorba on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 04:58:41 PM EST
    If you pump on their chests, all it is going to do is cause more blood to spurt out of their massive wounds, accelerating their deaths from loss of blood.
    Oh, well, I guess the answer then is to arm the kids by putting buckets of rocks in each classroom, so the kids can overcome their quite reasonable reaction to hide under a desk if there is an active shooter, stand up, pitch rocks at him, and hope that they're not shot in the process.  Or for the kids to swarm the shooter.  Both have been suggested by blithering idiots.  As have the suggestions that it is up to the kids to make friends of the quiet/shy/emotionally disturbed kids who may be bullied- which would, in fact, be great if they did this, but they're kids, too, so how much do we expect from them?
    Putting the onus on the kids is NOT THE WAY TO GO!!!  Sorry for "shouting."
    The onus is on society, to find an answer to this.  Not the kids, who deserve to go to school in a safe environment.
    I give up.  Maybe I need to move to another, more rational country.  
    Is it time for a drink?  Yes, it's late enough.  Jack Daniels on the rocks it is.

    I wrote a email to cnn... (none / 0) (#95)
    by desertswine on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 02:33:54 PM EST
    telling them that whenever I see the frothy one's face on their network, I'm turning the channel.  What an idiot.

    Remington has filed for bankruptcy. (none / 0) (#70)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 10:47:28 AM EST
    Remington Outdoor Brands has filed for bankruptcy.

    The bankruptcy filing allows Remington to stay in business while restructuring its massive debt. The company has been planning to reduce its debt by $700 million through the Chapter 11 process and contribute $145 million to its subsidiaries.


    The gun industry as a whole has suffered plunging sales and profits under the Trump administration, because consumers are no longer driven by fears of more restrictive gun control with a Republican in the White House who's been endorsed by the National Rifle Association

    American Outdoor Brands (AOBC), which owns the brand Smith & Wesson, reported dismal earnings earlier this month as did Sturm Ruger (RGR) in February, and they've laid off hundreds of workers.

    Ironically. (none / 0) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 10:47:41 AM EST
    Not sure it is ironic (none / 0) (#91)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 01:03:15 PM EST
    I was raised being taught American made small arms were as good or better than anything.  Sad to say this has changed.  In earlier posts I noted I just bought a Tikka. A Bergara was the only other choice.  As a kid I never knew of these weapon makers.  Sure there were some super expensive foreign makers but unless you were rich they were not in the mix; not to mention they were often looked at more as status symbols than real shooting weapons.  I looked at the Ruger RPR and worked the bold in the local gun shop.  Compared to the Tikka it felt like there was sand in the action.  In some senses it is rather like how American made cars simply could not compete with those from Japan decades ago.  I do think American made cars have improved and are now able to compete.  Maybe the same thing will happen with small arms.  But currently companies like CZ and Beretta through their US subsidies are simply producing better quality small arms at prices US makers have problems matching.  Back in the 1980s the US Army replaced the Colt 1911 with the Beretta M9.  

    Interesting point. (none / 0) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 01:16:48 PM EST
    Perhaps even more notable if the current wave of anti-gun sentiment leads to fewer "casual" purchasers.

    Analysis (none / 0) (#108)
    by ragebot on Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 05:51:42 PM EST
    I have seen is gun sales are related to which party is in power.  If Democrats are in power folks buy guns because they think those in power will try and impose stricter laws.  If Republicans are in power there are no such fears and gun sales drop.

    Ironically (none / 0) (#113)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Mar 27, 2018 at 07:01:45 AM EST
    the GOP in their attacks on Hillary ended up slitting their own throats. It was always a ruse that now has come to an end. You only can fleece the rubes for so long before they start catching onto the con game.