Wednesday Open Thread

Update: The death toll for Hurricane Michael is now at 16.

The judge in El Chapo's trial denied another continuance request. Looks like trial may actually begin Nov. 5. It will last weeks. I have been following it very closely, reading every pleading and court order since El Chapo arrived here (as well those in his predecessor cases in other districts, going back to 1993.) What I won't do is speculate on expected protected witnesses before they testify. I do plan on covering the trial extensively once testimony begins. If New York weren't so expensive, I'd do it in person.

Harvey Weinstein won a round and got one sex assault charged dropped this week. He's nowhere near home free (yet).

Time for a new open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Donald (from Hawaii)... (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by leap on Wed Oct 10, 2018 at 03:44:29 PM EST
    Have you seen this talk via the USGS about the recent eruptions of Kilauea volcano? USGS geophysicist Kyle Anderson gives a good history and current theories about what is happening now.

    Actually, I would imagine many here, not just Donald, would be interested in this talk.

    I just watched this (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 11:05:59 AM EST
    Hi! (none / 0) (#99)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 10:14:33 PM EST
    Sorry, I didn't get back to you guys earlier. I'm in SoCal working on two congressional races in Orange County. Gotta get rid of Dana Rohrabacher and Mimi Waters.

    Thank you for the link. No, I hadn't seen it. When I get back to Hilo, I want to spend a weekend exploring Kilauea's summit. Volcanoes Nat'l Park is now re-opened, and from what I've heard, the changes are stunning.

    Anyway, I'll write more about what I'm doing later.



    On democrats talking about climate (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 10, 2018 at 05:05:02 PM EST
    Leonard Cohen (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 05:44:34 PM EST
    Is trending

    With a poem called

    Kayne West is not Picasso

    a search

    Over-thinking Khashoggi. (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by KeysDan on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 12:57:33 PM EST
    Inclined to believe that there is more complexity to the discussions of "what really is going on" than is necessary.  

    Save for details of Khashoggi's being disappeared, its broad strokes are consistent with the modus operandi of the Crown Prince (MBS) to consolidate and maintain power in Saudi Arabia and to obtain influence around the world.  

    Misadventures are a part of his administration, including the kidnapping of the Lebanese Prime Minister, the imprisonment/torture/extortion of Saudi royals/businessman in the Riyadh Ritz Carlton, the crisis in Qatar, the war in Yeman, and the freak-out over the human/women's rights critique tweeted by Chris Freeland, Foreign Minister of Canada. This tweet resulted in rashness and over-reaction. MBS has thin skin to the point that the tweet resulted in withdrawal of the Canadian Ambassador, return of over 8000 Saudi students studying in Canada, and withdrawing Saudi investments.

    The arrogance, impulsiveness and recklessness of MBS may have taken a new and bolder turn with a reach-out to Saudi dissidents anywhere around the globe.  No safe harbor.  And using the macabre and, most would agree, intimidating, step of deploying a battery of assassins equipped with a bone saw, sends a strong message.

    Of course, the actions of MBS have been aided and abetted by Trump, that "hidden genius" Jared Kushner, and American business moguls, including Silicon Valley and media types. A de facto green light, if not something more direct, seems to have been given to this "reformer", in hope of seeing some of that oil money supporting their favorite projects.  

    Randy (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 07:20:20 PM EST
    Can anyone explain to me (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 12:54:23 PM EST
    Iowa? Specifically the Iowa 4th congressional district. Is this some bastion of Nazism or a homeland for white supremacists? How do they keep re-electing Steve King? If this was the first half of the 1940s, Steve King would be in prison for treason. Yet now, this filth is allowed to serve in Congress?

    Someone (none / 0) (#166)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 05:11:00 PM EST
    from Iowa told me they are all as stupid as King. I have no idea if this is actually true or not but it's a possible reason.

    Pretty sure you all will get a kick (5.00 / 5) (#164)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 01:20:47 PM EST
    out of this one:

    Grammar matters.

    Donald J. Trump✔

    "Federal Judge throws out Stormy Danials lawsuit versus Trump. Trump is entitled to full legal fees." @FoxNews Great, now I can go after Horseface and her 3rd rate lawyer in the Great State of Texas. She will confirm the letter she signed! She knows nothing about me, a total con!

    8:04 AM - Oct 16, 2018

    Was the president feeling especially truthful today? Or does he just not understand how commas work?

    Raise your hand when you see it.

    Interesting times (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 10, 2018 at 12:06:13 PM EST
    The good news (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 10, 2018 at 12:07:22 PM EST
    10th Circuit Takes a Look at Kavanaugh (none / 0) (#5)
    by RickyJim on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 08:44:53 AM EST
    Now, Chief Justice Roberts has requested Judge Timothy M. Tymkovich, the chief circuit judge of the Denver-based Tenth Circuit, to review the complaints against Kavanaugh and "any pending or new complaints related to the same subject matter." Judge Tymkovich has the option of handling the complaints himself, dismissing them or appointing a special committee to examine them.

    Unlike the allegations of Justice Kavanaugh's sexual misconduct and excessive drinking as a teenager, there is no question here about the facts as to what happened, since they occurred on national television. At the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, Judge Kavanaugh's behavior was startingly non-judicial in nature. From the outset in his prepared statement, he was angry and confrontational in manner. He was aggrieved and complaining about the situation in which he found himself. He was impolite and challenged the integrity of the Senate questioners and portrayed the hearing in the starkest partisan terms.

    Link I am sure there are those here who can make a better guess as to what will happen now than I can.

    Seems very likely to me that (none / 0) (#7)
    by Peter G on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 09:31:40 AM EST
    the Tenth Circuit committee will rule that because Kavanaugh is no longer a Circuit Judge, the judicial discipline process no longer has jurisdiction. As a result, I predict, they will dismiss the charges as moot. Just as the charges against Kosinski were dismissed when he "retired" from the bench.

    Obvious Difference (none / 0) (#10)
    by RickyJim on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 09:58:10 AM EST
    Retiring versus getting on the Supreme Court.  Is there some rule that being promoted to appeals court from a trial court immediately makes moot any pending charge against a judge of the lower court?  Very non intuitive.

    A federal district court (trial) judge who is (none / 0) (#31)
    by Peter G on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 02:25:04 PM EST
    elevated to the court of appeals remains in the system that is subject to discipline by these committees. A circuit (appellate) judge who is confirmed to the Supreme Court has undergone a change of status that takes him or her outside of the established judicial discipline committee system (which does not apply to SCOTUS Justices). So the analogy to retirement or resignation is better than the analogy to elevation to a different court within the same system.

    Peter G's (none / 0) (#32)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 02:30:11 PM EST
    prediction that the complaints referred by the Chief Justice to the 10th Circuit will be found to be moot and, accordingly, dismissed is the most likely result.

    But, I agree that the situations between Kavanaugh and Kozinski are different and should be treated differently. Indeed, the Kavanaugh situation is unprecedented.

    The alleged misconduct that occurred while Kavanaugh was on the DC Circuit is subject to the Code of Conduct for US Judges (even though not applicable to SC Justices).  Any violation of the Code does not disappear because Kavanaugh is now on another federal court. If the findings of the 10th Circuit (of no merit, or of merit) are no longer enforceable, they should become a part of Kavanauagh's record while serving on the DC Circuit Court, and, given the special circumstances, made a part of the public record.

    The responses of the Chief Justice were, at best, disappointing.  Firstly, Roberts did not see an urgent need to act on the complaints forwarded to him by DC Circuit Court Judge Karen Le Craft Henderson (serving in place of Judge Merrick Garland who recused himself).

    Judge Le Craft Henderson screened the complaints and sent only those appearing to be worthy of further consideration.

    Secondly, the choice by Roberts of Tim Tymkovich, Chief Judge of the 10th Circuit in Denver, does not inspire  the greatest confidence.  The selection of an extreme right wing judge (e.g., wrote for the majority in the Hobby Lobby case/upheld by SC, 5/4; as CO solicitor general argued, fortunately unsuccessfully, in Romer v Evans--that revocation of legal protections for gays was not unconstitutional)and who, himself, was on Trump's most recent short list for SC nominees, does not engender the greatest confidence.

    And, too, there is the fact that the Chief Judge served with Gorsuch, and, a key figure in the confirmation process, was Deborah Ramirez, a Boulder resident. All a little too close, given that Roberts had eleven other circuits to consider.

    The "moot, dismissal" conclusion must not be one set in judicial stone, or Roberts could have ruled on the matter himself and not put the 10th Circuit through the bother.  Hopefully, this is not another "FBI Supplemental Background" cover that served Flake, Collins, et.al. so well.


    I'm Still Puzzled (none / 0) (#34)
    by RickyJim on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 03:16:39 PM EST
    So there is no mechanism in place, except congressional impeachment, to discipline a sitting Supreme Court justice?

    What else could Roberts have done reasonably?  Have a committee of other Supreme Court justices investigate the charges against their new colleague?  Doesn't his referral of the matter to a lower court give that court legitimacy to investigate and make a recommendation?


    Yes, the Constitutional (none / 0) (#35)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 03:50:47 PM EST
    procedure for removal of a SC Justice is impeachment/conviction by the House/Senate.  Otherwise, laws/rules/regulations of ethics that apply to other federal officers/judges do not, generally, apply to the nine SC Justices or to the president and vice president.

    The referral of the complaints to the 10th Circuit by the Chief Justice of the USA for consideration after Kavanaugh's elevation to the Supreme Court suggests, to me, that his actions, while an appellate court judge, remain viable. If not, why ask an appellate court to consider the complaints so as to make a finding that is preordained?


    I wonder why they chose the 10th (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 02:16:44 PM EST
    Maybe it's because the second person who complained (the Yale party where he allegedly flashed his johnson) lives in Boulder. Also, a mother of a girl who double dated with him wrote a letter to Colo. Sen. Cory Gardner saying her daughter said she didn't like the way he acted towards her friend on the date.

    Interesting that the mother wrote the letter (none / 0) (#38)
    by McBain on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:21:11 PM EST
    not the daughter or the friend who actually went on the date.  



    Well, it (none / 0) (#44)
    by KeysDan on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:58:03 PM EST
    seems, to me, that sending a letter to a senator about the sexual assault by a nominee to the SC of a traumatized friend of her daughter who might be frightened to do so, is something a mother would do.  

    If the letter writing was not discussed in advance of its mailing, the daughter surely saw the account in the local, if not national, news.  A chance to deny or recant, but probably hoping against hope that the anonymous tip wold be investigated.

      And, it was.  Kavanaugh was asked about it and denied it...a "disgrace" he was reported as retorting. So there is that.

     Kavanaugh would have been about 33 years old at the time (1998) so an investigation that looked into allegations (physical assault of a woman while intoxicated) after high school and college/law school might have been revelatory.  And, interesting.


    I'm assuming this is the letter... (none / 0) (#51)
    by McBain on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 06:37:29 PM EST
    "Her friend was dating him, and they left the bar under the influence of alcohol. They were all shocked when Brett Kavanaugh shoved her friend up against the wall very aggressively and sexually," the letter reads, according to a transcript released Wednesday by the Senate Judiciary Committee of a phone interview of Kavanaugh by committee staffers. "There were at least four witnesses, including my daughter."

    Kavanaugh's response....

    "No, and we're dealing with an anonymous letter about an anonymous person and an anonymous friend. It's ridiculous. Total twilight zone," Kavanaugh told staffers on the call. "And no, I've never done anything like that."

    "Never done anything like that" (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by Peter G on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 10:45:04 PM EST
    or, at least, not that he can remember.

    "I like beer." (none / 0) (#100)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 10:20:02 PM EST
    "My friends liked beer. Girls liked beer. We all liked beer. Sometimes I drank too many beers. Sometimes, I didn't drink enough beers. But hey, I like beer."

    Give that man a lifetime appointment. Oy.


    I have a fire this morning (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 09:07:29 AM EST
    It was 90 yesterday

    So cute!!! (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:17:36 PM EST
    I want one.

    A fire in the fireplace, I hope (none / 0) (#8)
    by Peter G on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 09:32:25 AM EST
    and not in the stove or the couch.

    In my cute little wood stove (none / 0) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 09:39:52 AM EST
    Ecofan (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by jmacWA on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 10:16:21 AM EST
    Howdy, I strongly recommend an Ecofan.  I had one of these on my gas fireplace and it distributes the heat from the stove nicely, and requires no electricity.  When we were without power for 3 days circulating that heat was great.  I had one of the small ones, cost about 30 bucks as I recall

    Awesome little fan and great use of (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 11:14:28 AM EST
    the Seebeck Effect. The heat of the stove powers the fan, so no need for batteries or power cords. And it turns on and off automatically to boot.

    Very cool.


    I ordered one (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 11:25:55 AM EST
    I want one and I don't have a wood stove. (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:00:59 PM EST
    It is great (none / 0) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:07:43 PM EST
    I have ceiling fan right above it but it's in the center of a large room (20-40) so this is way better.

    I have redundant heat. If you like heat it goes with the terrirory.

    I have Propane heat that does not need electricity and electric heat and wood heat.


    Just to be clear (none / 0) (#33)
    by jmacWA on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 02:58:09 PM EST
    Doesn't have to be wood.  I had mine on my lp gas fireplace

    Ya, I gotcha. I live in SoCal, no stove (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:09:34 PM EST
    of any kind.

    We broke heat records here on Tuesday (none / 0) (#23)
    by Towanda on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:24:22 PM EST
    and today it will not hit 50 degrees, and there is a chance of snow flurries next week.

    I would call it climate change, vit it's just . . . Wisconsin.


    Can't say it's "global warming" (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 07:13:30 PM EST
    Climate change is definitely happening here.  

    One thing all the old people are talking about, that is older than me, is that there is no more spring or fall.  It's just hot till it gets cold and vice versa

    Last spring everyone's planting was delayed because it was the coldest April on record.  Followed by one of the hottest Mays on record.

    It just got cold.  It has been 90s literally every day for months then it wasn't.  40s tonight.  30s overnight this weekend.

    We used to have lengthy spring and fall.


    Saw a funny meme (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by ragebot on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 08:20:57 AM EST
    The temperature went from 90 to 55 like it saw a state trooper.

    Brought the plants in today (none / 0) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 11:37:10 AM EST
    I don't remember ever doing that before Halloween

    Broke my container garden down this morning (none / 0) (#167)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 18, 2018 at 02:05:28 PM EST
    Put the soil into dark garbage that will lay in the sun and sterilize the soil for next year. Trying to clone that tomato plant that is still producing tomatoes. Spring, summer, and fall tomatoes out of a container tomato plant.

    Oops..soil into dark garbage bags (none / 0) (#168)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Oct 18, 2018 at 02:06:11 PM EST
    We've had record breaking heat for what (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by vml68 on Thu Oct 18, 2018 at 03:12:14 PM EST
    seems like forever. We are forecast to get down into the 80s starting Sunday. Finally!

    I was grumbling about the heat till I found out that the high pressure system that has been keeping us so hot is also responsible for Hurricane Michael not being able to turn in towards the Tampa Bay area and instead sent it towards the panhandle.



    Kill me (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:11:11 PM EST
    Kanye is talking about alternate universes in the oval office with the "president" nodding in the BG

    Kill me

    West (3.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 10:19:57 AM EST
    has the same level of talent as his wife.

    Honestly (none / 0) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 11:27:51 AM EST
    I think he is very talented.


    I guess I was the only one obsessed with this.  I was watching when it happened and it had the feeling of watching Jack Ruby shoot Oswald.

    Today's obsessed with the murder dismemberment the president says is worth ignoring for some military hardware sales.

    Like anyone with two brain cells thinks he gives a furry rats butt about military hardware sales


    Get off my lawn old man (none / 0) (#66)
    by CST on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 12:44:47 PM EST
    IMO, he's a mixed bag as a rapper but he's also one of the most talented hip-hop producers of the past 2 decades.  You may not like his genre of music but that doesn't make him bad at it.

    LOL! (none / 0) (#67)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 12:57:19 PM EST
    Actually, I do like some hip hop and rap. However, I have not seen anything that came from Mr. West (clothing, music, whatever) that I have found particularly impressive. And granted, I find his personality boorish and narcissistic (gee sound like anybody else?).

    Now why isn't anyone rushing out to defend my sideways assessment of Mrs. West? I know everyone here is on pins and needles for the next episode of KUWTK (one of the most vapid offerings on televison).


    Not a fan of hip hop (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 01:29:48 PM EST
    But I remember once I tuned into the benefit for Katrina around 2005ish and there he was.  With a whole bunch of gospel singers

    It was amazing.


    Holy hell (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:13:31 PM EST
    This is frame changing

    I've never seen anything like this

    What is he on??!!?


    Ok ok (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:16:12 PM EST
    This is Kanyes brilliant plan to destroy Trump and the republicans

    Trump is feeding him facts

    O M G


    I love (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:19:34 PM EST
    No one is asking him questions.

    They are just letting him talk.


    I really really really (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:25:54 PM EST
    Can't wait for the punditry

    HA (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:30:25 PM EST
    first word on MSNBC



    What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#37)
    by leap on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:17:46 PM EST
    Do you have a link to whatever this is?

    Type Kanye in any search engine (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:43:13 PM EST
    Ps (none / 0) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:45:11 PM EST
    I think the hand wringing about "running the video" is ridiculous

    The video (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:49:06 PM EST
    Oh. (none / 0) (#48)
    by leap on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 05:38:26 PM EST
    I don't think I care about any of this. Thanks, though!

    Lucky you (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 06:02:12 PM EST
    This is our president.  In his element.

    I don't see not caring as an option.


    Drumptht is always in his element (none / 0) (#52)
    by leap on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 06:45:07 PM EST
    I can't imagine this thing with Kanye is any different from any other of Drump being in his element. Did you read Olivia Nuzzi's "My Private Oval Office Press Conference With Donald Trump"? Drumphth is definitely in his element while her device records his stream-of-consciousness babble. How is this country ever going to recover from this crazy?

    I did see that (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 06:52:01 PM EST
    It was quite wonderful.  As well as kind of frightening.

    But seriously.  I know we are all numb.  And of course this is intended as a diversion, but come on.  That was off the charts

    I was trying to imagine what would have happened to Obama if that's scene had happened in 2014.

    I say take it as the diversion it is.  Watch the whole arm flapping, pole bouncing, hugging thing.

    This IS our history


    The (none / 0) (#61)
    by FlJoe on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 05:49:33 AM EST
    banality of insanity will be our epithet.

    that guy babbles for 20 minutes? (none / 0) (#56)
    by leap on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 07:03:02 PM EST
    Nope. Ain't worth my time. Nothing new there.

    Trump wants prison reform (none / 0) (#22)
    by McBain on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:19:49 PM EST
    President Donald Trump said Thursday that the United States criminal justice system needs reform and is "very unfair to African-Americans" and that he would overrule Attorney General Jeff Sessions if he tried to stand in the way of changes.

    I think it has more to do with economics than race.

    "We're going to make certain categories tougher when it comes to drug dealing and other things, but there has to be a reform because it is very unfair right now.

    Not sure how making things tougher on drug dealing will result in positive reform but I'm glad he's open to addressing the situation.  

    he's going to add (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 02:20:41 PM EST
    more mandatory minimum penalties. Totally the as*-backwards approach.

    Meanwhile, Mexico's new President is considering legalizing poppy farming so long as the farmers sell to the government who can process it into pain medicine for sale (and export to U.S.). Especially in state of Guerrero. Pena-Nieto's outgoing defense minister is recommending it and the Guerrero state legislature has approved it.


    Started watching The Handmaid's Tale (none / 0) (#26)
    by McBain on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 12:30:29 PM EST
    with my free month of Hulu.  So far so good but I could do without the voice over narration.  That's one of my pet peeves.  Let action and regular dialog tell the story.

    Finished season 2 of Ozark on Netflix.  Didn't like the ending but enjoyed the season overall. Maybe Julia Garner should get some an Emmy nomination at some point.

    Not sure what to think of Jim Carrey's Kidding yet.  Caught the first episode.  I think I was expecting more of a Pee Wee's Playhouse kind of show.  Anyway, it's good to see him back on the small screen again.  

    that ruined season 1 of Narcos (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 02:21:46 PM EST
    as well. I did the free month on Hulu but there was nothing I didn't get elsewhere to I cancelled it.

    I love that you don't know what to think (none / 0) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 11:32:40 AM EST
    About KIDDING.

    It is not PEE WEEs PLAYOUSE.


    ... the producers of the show / film don't trust audience members to get it on their own. Harrison Ford's monotoned voice-over throughout the original studio incarnation of Ridley Scott's "Blade Runner" was very annoying. Only after I finally saw the "Director's Cut," which dispensed with that narrative voice-over, was I able to truly appreciate both Scott's dystopian vision of a 21st century society gone horribly awry, and the inherent humanity of the genetically engineered Nexus 6 replicants who'd been manufactured and enslaved to serve the needs and desires of that society.

    A test audience probably got confused (none / 0) (#150)
    by McBain on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 04:57:09 PM EST
    so they decided to dumb it down

    Scott was going for (none / 0) (#151)
    by jondee on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 05:13:24 PM EST
    a dystopian scifi meets traditional film noir effect with that voice-over narration.

    The Harrison Ford voice-over was not ... (none / 0) (#154)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 06:48:05 PM EST
    ... director Ridley Scott's doing, but was the result of a conscious decision by producers Bud Yorkin and Jerry Perenchio, because the original cut was not well received by test audiences. So they hired an uncredited Roland Kibbee (who was one of the scriptwriters for old '70s CBS sitcom "The Bob Newhart Show") to write the voice-over narrative. Although Ford had clashed with Scott repeatedly on the set, he nevertheless had understood and bought into the director's original vision. And now he tried to defend it, but to no avail. As Ford himself explained:

    "When we started shooting it had been tacitly agreed that the version of the film that we had agreed upon was the version without voiceover narration. It was a f**king [sic] nightmare. I thought that the film had worked without the narration. But now I was stuck re-creating that narration. And I was obliged to do the voiceovers for people that did not represent the director's interests. I went kicking and screaming to the studio to record it." (Emphasis is mine.)

    Rumor had it at the time that Ford intentionally delivered a lackluster monotone performance in his narration so that Yorkin and Perenchio would ditch the voice-over narrative concept entirely and stick with director Scott's version. If that's true, well, it certainly didn't work. The voice-over narrative stayed.

    Very few film directors have enjoyed the right to final cut, and Hollywood history is replete with films in which the studio's cut led to a box-office disaster. Sergio Leone's "Once Upon a Time in America" is one example; the studio took a 4-hour+ film and tried to bring it in under two hours, and the result was an unintelligible mess onscreen which audiences quickly rejected outright. So is Michael Cimino's "Heaven's Gate."



    On the subject of racial bias (none / 0) (#27)
    by CST on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 02:09:05 PM EST
    One of the problems with racial bias is that you can never really know what the motivation behind things are.

    Example: Two young boys, both remarkably smart, beginning to read and spell at the age of 3.  One young boy is immediately recognized as smart and given intellectually appropriate things to do as a result.  The other young boy is reported by his pre-school as being behind because he isn't interacting with the toys he's being given appropriately and it is recommended that he see someone to see if he is developing intellectually at the right pace.  The parents take him to see someone because they want to do what's best for their son and that person basically tells them that he's ahead for his age and bored, so that's why he's not interacting with the toys he's been given "appropriately".  The first boy is white, the second boy is black.  They were not in the same school, they did not have the same teachers.

    No one really knows if the second boy was underestimated because of his skin color and at first glance nothing "bad" happened so there's nothing to see here.  But the reality is that he's 3 years old and his life is just beginning and he's already been assumed to be "behind" because he's not presenting as "normal" where the other boy was assumed to be "ahead" because he didn't present as "normal".  I'll add that this is not a hypothetical scenario, and temperamentally they were both very similar at that age and in the same economic class and same region.

    Racial bias?  Maybe, or maybe just different teachers who respond to the same scenario differently.  The problem is that eventually it doesn't matter to the person on the receiving end, and when enough of this stuff happens over a lifetime it stops mattering "why", and only the "what" is actually important to the development of a person.

    Interesting but I'd hate to blame (none / 0) (#58)
    by McBain on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 07:48:13 PM EST
    teachers who probably aren't paid very well for making difficult decisions.  I'd need a lot more information to decide if this had anything to do with race.

    What kind of training do pre school teachers get to be able to determine if someone isn't interacting normally because they are smart or because of another reason?


    I certainly wasn't blaming the teacher (none / 0) (#65)
    by CST on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 11:40:26 AM EST
    Or anyone at all.  

    The point is that it doesn't matter whether or not anyone is to blame, the result is the same to the person on the receiving end.

    Every single situation can be explained away as an anomaly or incedental.   Over a lifetime these things add up.  You're too hung up on whether or not there's a "bad guy", it doesn't matter.


    OK, but how do we improve the situation? (none / 0) (#69)
    by McBain on Fri Oct 12, 2018 at 03:25:18 PM EST
    I don't have all the answers (none / 0) (#70)
    by CST on Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 09:56:37 AM EST
    But a little empathy and understanding goes a long way.  

    Which starts by not discounting people's experiences when they say they've felt these things just because no one shouted the n word at them.

    In other words, give them the benefit of the doubt too, not just the teachers, baristas, and cops of the world.  Because whether or not it's intentional or someone's fault, there's still a real person on the other end dealing with the consequences.


    implicit biases (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 11:25:33 AM EST
    The other day I was talking to a friend and she said: "Well, you're sensitive because you're a ginger."

    I don't even remember what we were talking about, and I know she was trying to be kind, but, really? wtf?!

    So I friggin' kicked her.


    But seriously, that made me realize that there are people throughout the course of my life who have looked at me and (pre)judged me because I have red hair, and all this time I had absolutely no idea.

    Obviously not the same level of issue that you describe.


    My grandson is a redhead (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Towanda on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 12:00:09 PM EST
    and even the first few strands caused people, total strangers, to call out that he is a "ginger"  -- and to tell entirely uninvited tales about what that will mean for his temperament and more.

    This is not good for a child to hear from the earliest years.

    Fortunately, my daughter, his mom, is a blonde. She cannot forget the damage done, in her most impressionable years, by the popularity then of "dumb blonde" jokes.  (Even from her father, so I taught her what to say to the ex when he did that -- essentially what I said to him, but without a few choice words from me.) And she already had esteem issues, owing to her chronic health condition.

    She will put the a$$holes in their place for her son's sake. Just as she does for her students. Teachers, like parents, who faced their own disabilities or battled stereotypes, too, would appreciate all the a$$holes of the world just shutting the f up.


    According to the wiki famous redheads (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 03:34:55 PM EST
    list, leaving out all the movie stars, we have people like Elizabeth I, Jefferson, Van Gogh, Mark Twain, Churchill, Sarah Bernhardt, Rod Laver, Jean Paul Sartre, Patrick Henry, Oliver Cromwell, Malcom X, Mary Queen of Scots, Les Paul, Trotsky, Vivaldi, John Glenn..

    Not bad company. And I didn't even go through the whole list.


    Did wily Odysseus have red hair? (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 03:42:26 PM EST
    or do I just think that because Kirk Douglas played him?

    My sister is a red head (none / 0) (#72)
    by CST on Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 12:04:45 PM EST
    It's a big part of the reason she actually preferred wearing a head scarf.

    The fetishization is what really got to her.  Now she gets profiled but is much less likely to be sexually harassed.  It also reinforced some of the religious aspects that "this will protect you from unwanted behavior".

    People are complicated and carrying around  baggage that you can't always see.


    My sister (none / 0) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 04:41:14 PM EST
    in law is a red head and I don't know if this is a southern thing or just her family but it's all about her temper. Oh, it's that red headed temper again. So if you have red hair you have a bad temper but I would think if you didn't have a temper and people always talked about a "red headed temper" you soon would develop one.

    Red heads (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 05:35:57 PM EST
    We're often burned as witches

    Carrot top (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 05:39:10 PM EST
    Red hair was apparently a sign of witchcraft in Christian Europe and it's said that it was often seen as a marker of guilt in the eyes of witch finders. To what extent this is true we'll probably never truly know, but it does appear from the evidence that red hair was certainly seen as untrustworthy and something that aroused suspicion. What follows are examples of this prejudice.

    The Distrust of Redheads
    There are many examples of redheads being stereotyped as untrustworthy in medieval times. The "Proverbs of Alfred" warn not to choose a red-haired person as a friend and the "Secretum Secretorum" warns against using redheads as advisors. Another manuscript, from the 14th century, notes that redheads are rarely faithful in friendship and a work published in 1659 denounced the "vulgar error" of "censuring red-haired men."

    These ideas of untrustworthiness run parallel with the idea that Judas, Christ's betrayer, had red hair. In fact Judas was frequently portrayed with red hair or a red beard in the artwork of the Middle Ages. The author Ruth Mellinkoff, in her excellent book, "Outcasts," commented upon this prejudice, believing it to be a product of red hair's minority status in society.



    Maybe the negative associations (none / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 07:39:16 PM EST
    with redheads had something to do with rural people's experiences from time immemorial with those notorious duck and chicken stealing wily red foxes..

    Or maybe it had something to do with those bright red Fly Agaric mushrooms that 'pagan' shamans traditionally used that were said to turn a person into themselves, according to mycologist Lawrence Millman.

    I always associated redheads with interesting, spunky personalities..

    I do remember knowing a very fair complected ginger back in grade school who used to get these startling spontaneous nosebleeds that looked a stop light on Christmas morning. It's one of those indelible images from early life.


    In the TMI area (none / 0) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 11:11:46 AM EST
    Someone who knows me very well, a woman, noted once that all the women I have ever been intimate with were, wait for it, redheads.

    And honestly there have been quite a few.  I would bet I have had as much experience in this area as you average straight man.

    This had not occurred to me.  It was a moment of insight.

    I'm totally sure it's the whole witch thing.

    Red haired men are definitely not my type


    No offence (none / 0) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 11:24:31 AM EST

    Heh. Red haired men (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:45:33 AM EST
    are definitely not my type either.

    No offense.


    also worth pointing out (none / 0) (#82)
    by ragebot on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 03:00:26 PM EST
    The Red Woman in GOT.

    She was a bad one.


    I never learned to read (none / 0) (#83)
    by ragebot on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 03:29:56 PM EST
    till the 3rd grade.

    It was pointed out by an astute 3rd grade teacher.  Instead of reading I would memorize what the teacher said, like "see Dick run', and associate it with the pictures in the book.

    If there was a picture of Dick and Jane I knew some of the words, same for a pix of Spot.  When Miss Chambers (my 3rd grade teacher) told my Mom she said I would have to be held back.  Instead my Mom taught me to read at third grade level in six weeks.

    Of course elementary school was much different in the 1950s and there was no such thing as "given intellectually appropriate things to do".  On the other hand I am not sure what it says about reading at a third grade level that I could get up to speed in less than a couple of months.


    WA Supreme Court Strikes Down Death Penalty (none / 0) (#43)
    by vicndabx on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 04:51:02 PM EST
    The death penalty is invalid because it is imposed in an arbitrary and racially biased manner. While this particular case provides an opportunity to specifically address racial disproportionality, the underlying issues that underpin our holding are rooted in the arbitrary manner in which the death penalty is generally administered.

    A finding cited in the ruling:

    [F]rom December 1981 through May of 2014, special sentencing proceedings in Washington State involving Black defendants were between 3.5 and 4.6 times as likely to result in a death sentence as proceedings involving non-Black defendants after the impact of the other variables included in the model has been taken into account.

    Blacks make up about 4% of the population in Washington State.

    So, near a close-by state park (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 05:00:45 PM EST
    there have been a string of burglaries, shots fired, cars hit by bullets, etc., over the past couple years. And, last summer, a shooting fatality at the park. A dad, sleeping in a tent, shot in the head, with his 2 & 4 y/o daughters sleeping beside him.

    Those living in the area, like Will and Jada Smith in their reported 43 million dollar home, and us regular folk, have been on edge since the fatality, and yesterday the sheriffs arrested a "survivalist" guy out near the park. It appears he had been living out there in the brush.

    He had a rifle, but they don't know yet if that was the gun used in the fatality, nor, if it was, whether he did the shooting.

    Also turns out that LA area gangs like to use the area for dumping bodies.

    Interesting times...

    Not really a park (none / 0) (#46)
    by MKS on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 05:09:24 PM EST
    A lot of open land out there. They filmed the t.v. show M*A*S*H out there.  The "oudoors" in the greater SoCal area has always faced more danger from people than wildlife or the environment.

    Ya, a state park, not a town park. (none / 0) (#47)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 05:17:05 PM EST
    Hiking, camping, and mountain biking on miles of trails through the open hills; not benches, feeding pigeons, and fake ginger-bread houses at Christmas...

    Malibu Creek State Park. (none / 0) (#101)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 10:29:39 PM EST
    That such a beautiful area of the Santa Monica Mountains. You're blessed to live so close.

    Weird turn in the NYS limo crash that killed 20 (none / 0) (#54)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 06:54:20 PM EST
    The owner of the limo company is the same guy who worked as an FBI snitch setting up a couple Muslims in a [bogus] terror conspiracy charge (covered here back in the day) wherein the patsies  were thinking they were buying/getting a surface-to-air missile to shoot down some plane.  And he worked as a snitch for the FBI for quite a while on other stuff, too.
    And he had a long criminal record, mostly fraud-related stuff.
    His son, who ran the limo service, was arrested on a homicide charge.  
    The limo had failed inspection - brake issues, among other things - and should not have been on the road.
    The limo driver was not properly licensed and should not have been driving the limo.
    And the snitchy father seems to be the only one with smarts - he was out of the country when this all took place.  I'd suspect he's not very likely to come back.
    20 people - 17 passengers, the driver, two pedestrians in the wrong place at the wrong time - are dead.  The passengers had rented a limo so they wouldn't have to drive - they were going to a brewery for a surprise birthday party honoring one of the deceased.

    Sadly, two of the deceased are grads (none / 0) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 09:59:30 PM EST
    from my college.

    In other easterly news (none / 0) (#55)
    by scribe on Thu Oct 11, 2018 at 06:57:46 PM EST
    Some of the charges against Harvey Weinstein have been dropped.  The story of one of the complainants had "problems" that showed more and more as more details were disclosed.  So the interrogating detective told her "less is more".  And buried the details.

    NYPD at work.

    So Jared paid no taxes (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Oct 13, 2018 at 03:40:12 PM EST
    Not sure why this would be news.

    I guess we can hope its a teaser for after Nov 6th.

    "Only the... (none / 0) (#89)
    by desertswine on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 05:32:23 PM EST
    Little People pay taxes."

    Oh yeah? (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 12:44:21 PM EST
    What (none / 0) (#86)
    by FlJoe on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 04:42:50 PM EST
    the he!! are the Saudis thinking anyway? This whole thing seems so weird, the Saudis were essentially in the cat-bird seat recently. Strong backing from the US and a defacto alliance with Israel put them in a strong position to prosecute the war in Yemen and to crack down on political dissent internally with little or no blowback.

    Now this one act throws all that out the window, and for the moment they are hemorrhaging support and possibly seeing their economy crash, all to rid themselves of what was at most a journalistic thorn in their sides. I just don't get it.


    The Israelis probably wish (none / 0) (#87)
    by jondee on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 05:09:39 PM EST
    they could've chopped up Mordecai Vanunu.

    The (none / 0) (#88)
    by FlJoe on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 05:18:09 PM EST
    Israelis have carried out plenty of extra-judicial killings, just not quite so blatantly, and not to my recollection any involving dissident journalists.

    I was thinking (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 05:35:46 PM EST
    One thing they might do is start talking about all the other extra-judicial operations they know about.

    It's what I would do.


    Not meaning to sound pro MBS (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 06:03:44 PM EST
    I don't doubt he would do it.  Or even probably did.

    I also don't really believe anything Turkey says.


    I think there must be more (none / 0) (#90)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 05:33:30 PM EST
    To this story because I agree what we know now make no sense.

    We should probably hope MBS is not a crazy as it appears he might be.  And says something like "yer not ta boss of me because, you know, oil".

    Also Turkey is just as bad.  They could have done it as a false flag.  

    It's just too crazy.  I think at some point it might make more sense.

    For example, 15?  It took 15 trained assassins to take out a chubby reporter?


    15 to Get Rid of the Cut up Body (none / 0) (#93)
    by RickyJim on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 06:39:03 PM EST
    by each stuffing a piece in their briefcase or backpack without anybody noticing anything strange about the people leaving the consulate.

    I guess (none / 0) (#94)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 06:51:18 PM EST
    That would explain it.  

    Yea (none / 0) (#96)
    by ragebot on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 07:34:01 PM EST
    that makes a lot more sense than simply taking it out with the trash or in the trunk of a car.  Best to get as many peeps as possible involved.

    I'm not a trained killer (none / 0) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 10:34:41 PM EST
    But I would not plan to do it in a place with heavy security surveillance so there would be video of him entering the building but never leaving.

    That just seems like bad planning that would be a problem with any "disappearance" story.  Unless we are talking about wormholes and alternate universes


    When the power came back on at (none / 0) (#95)
    by ragebot on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 07:32:20 PM EST
    FSU I went there for a hot shower and soak in the hot tub.

    There was a post doc student from Turkey in the hot tub with me and his take was the same as yours; there is more to this story than we know about.

    Too much just does not add up.  Why would anyone think an consulate would be the best place to hit anyone; too many eyeballs there.  It is way too easy to hit someone in a more out of the way place and avoid possible witnesses.  

    Also wondering about the claims of "evidence".  Seems too convenient; almost like a set up.  I have no idea how an Apple watch works or even if it is capable of what is claimed.

    I still have to wonder why anyone would not choose the sniper option of 'from a place you will not see will come a sound you will not hear' for an op like this.


    MBS (none / 0) (#97)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 08:08:22 PM EST
    Has made many rich and powerful enemies.

    One theory about that (none / 0) (#104)
    by CST on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 07:16:26 AM EST
    Is that it was a kidnapping gone wrong.  15 guys to get him out alive and they botched it.

    That makes the most sense (none / 0) (#112)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:02:21 AM EST
    But they surely knew it would not be a secret kidnapping.  

    just my guess (none / 0) (#115)
    by ragebot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:29:29 AM EST
    but the Turks are claiming to have some audio of what happened.  I have seen real claims refuting the iWatch theory, mostly based on limited range of Bluetooth.  On the other hand I do believe the speculation that the Turks are bugging the KSA consulate (remember the Bond film From Russia, With Love).

    While technically Jamal may have been kidnapped the real purpose was to get to answer to questions about who knows what but most likely who was a threat to the KSA.  Once they got those answers, or were convinced Jamal would not talk, killing him would be the obvious option.

    As for cutting him up that seems silly; simply put him a diplomatic pouch and fly him out.


    Looks (none / 0) (#133)
    by FlJoe on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 03:06:10 PM EST
    like the "botched operation" is the winner
    According to two sources, the Saudis are preparing a report that will acknowledge that Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi's death was the result of an interrogation that went wrong, one that was intended to lead to his abduction from Turkey.
    and they also run with tRump's "rouge actor" theory
    One source says the report will likely conclude that the operation was carried out without clearance and transparency and that those involved will be held responsible.
    Heads will roll(literally) and the royals will be absolved, then it's on to Tehran.

    Interesting (none / 0) (#98)
    by ragebot on Sun Oct 14, 2018 at 09:12:03 PM EST
    No idea if it is true but this paper's background on Khashoggi seems somewhat reasonable.  Says his journalism gig was a cover, he was a spook with connections to OSB and nephew of an arms dealer.  Not to mention a member of the Muslim Brotherhood whos goal is to replace the current SA government.

    If even part of it is true it makes a lot more sense on why SA would want him out of the way and provides an explanation on why torture would be involved if SA wanted him to rat out his buds.


    Well, the whole (4.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 03:45:48 AM EST
    ties to OBL thing has been debunked. Ironically Adnan Khashoggi was one of the key players in the Reagan Iran Contra scandal. Anyone who writes an article saying Khashoggi wanted to replace the Saudi monarchy with a Islamic totalitarian state rates as questionable to me. The Saudi monarchy is different how from an Islamic totalitarian state? Saudi Arabia is a very repressive country.

    You may to be confusing (none / 0) (#106)
    by ragebot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 08:05:25 AM EST
    the arms dealer and the arms dealer's nephew.  The article never claimed Adnan knew OBL or that he wanted to replace the Saudi rulers, rather it said his nephew did; big difference.  In any case Khashoggi (the nephew) seems an unlikely journalist and nothing more.  

    Another thing the article also said is that there are not bad guys and good guys in the ME; there are only bad guys and worse guys.  Maybe more to the point the article also said there were their guys and our guys and the KSA is one of our guys.

    The nephew Khashoggi is a harsh critic of KSA if you take his writings in WaPo on face value; he does seem to want the monarchy to at least change, if not replaced.


    There is no (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 08:41:27 AM EST
    evidence that the nephew had ties to OBL is what I'm talking about. Apparently wingnut welfare is claiming that the nephew had ties to OBL simply because he did an interview with him. Peter Arnett interviewed OBL too and nobody is claiming that Arnett had ties to OBL.

    No, the article implied that having an Islamic state is a terrible thing and the Saud Royalty is much better. Frankly if you're honest you would say that it makes no difference. The Saudi Royal family is the biggest promoter of fundamentalist Islam in the world and I hardly see how an Islamic state would be any different. Wanting to get rid of the monarchy or criticizing the monarchy does not mean that an Islamic state is preferable.


    Its not as simple (none / 0) (#111)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 08:59:17 AM EST
    As winging welfare

    Years later, after American commandos killed Bin Laden in Pakistan in 2011, Mr. Khashoggi mourned his old acquaintance and what he had become.

    For Khashoggi, a Tangled Mix of Royal Service and Islamist Sympathies


    Okay. (none / 0) (#117)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:46:09 AM EST
    I see where that is coming from. He apparently was a fan of the mujahideen much like Ronald Reagan except wingnut welfare does not mention that fact only that he had "ties" to OBL.

    Reading comprehension is your friend (none / 0) (#114)
    by ragebot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:21:52 AM EST
    And putting words in someone's mouth is bad form.

    The article said there was little difference between an Islamic state and the Saudi royals in terms of which was bad and which was worse.  But it did point out the Saudi royals were our bad guys.

    You also seem to be missing the big point.  Why would anyone send a 15 man hit team to kill or kidnap a second rate reporter; it does not make sense.  On the other hand it does make sense to send a 15 man hit team to deal with a spook who had questionable loyalties.  The nephew did have dealings with OBL.  He may or may not have been a member of the Muslim Brotherhood but he did have dealings with them.  He also had dealings with Saudi intelligence community.

    In my original post I noted not all of the claims made by the right of center German paper might be true.  On the other hand the claims make more sense of what ever happened than thinking Jamal was nothing but a journalist simply trying to get a paperwork for a new marriage.


    From the article (none / 0) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:54:58 AM EST
    Germany's leading right-of-center daily Die Welt this morning reveals that Jamal Khashoggi was not a journalist, but a high-level operative for the Saudi intelligence service, an intimate of Osama bin Laden, and the nephew of the shadiest of all Arab arms dealers, the infamous Adnan Khashoggi. John Bradley reported last week in the Spectator that Khashoggi, who allegedly met a grisly end in a Saudi consulate in Istanbul, was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist organization that among other things wants to replace the Saudi monarchy with a modern Islamist totalitarian state.

    I see nothing there that states the Saudi Royal family is bad. Nothing about the Monarchy being totalitarian only an Islamic state being totalitarian.

    Yes, Howdy pointed me to a link that says he had the same affinity that Ronald Reagan had for OBL. Too bad the article you linked to did not point out that fact.

    In the end it is probably going to be a long time before we find out anything regarding this since the GOP really has no interest in pursuing what happened to Khashoggi. Certainly there is going to be nothing done with regards to his death.


    Readinc comprehension is your friend (1.00 / 1) (#122)
    by ragebot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 10:34:22 AM EST
    from the link I posted about good and bad.

    There are no good guys in Saudi Arabia, just bad guys and worse guys. This, after all, is a country ruled by a family, and its family politics often recall Game of Thrones. I condone nothing and endorse no-one, but I don't believe it's America's job to fix the problems of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I'm not interested in bad guys or good guys, just in our guys vs. their guys. So a bit of caution is warranted in drawing conclusions from the Khashoggi affair. We don't know what happened and I don't trust the intelligence Establishment to tell us.

    There was a guest on Morning Joe (none / 0) (#110)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 08:49:10 AM EST
    this morning that referred to KSA as ISIS that succeeded. Interesting take. And true to some extent. They likes them some beheadings.

    that's not a paper (none / 0) (#165)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 02:34:36 PM EST
    it's a right wing online consortium of online writers

    Ok (none / 0) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 11:57:43 AM EST
    There is going to be a fall guy.

    That's clearly where this is going.

    How much do you think he, and his family, will get from MBS?


    Or THEY (none / 0) (#143)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 11:58:19 AM EST
    and their families

    Or maybe the fall guy (none / 0) (#144)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 12:38:31 PM EST
    Will be MBS.

    it's what I would do.


    I have mixed feelings about this (none / 0) (#105)
    by CST on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 07:19:49 AM EST
    But Elizabeth Warren is definitely running for president.

    "Senator Elizabeth Warren has released a DNA test that provides "strong evidence'' she had a Native American in her family tree dating back 6 to 10 generations, an unprecedented move by one of the top possible contenders for the 2020 Democratic nomination for president."


    So are (5.00 / 4) (#107)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 08:18:57 AM EST
    Bernie and Biden.

    I think the nominee should be under 70


    She'll be 70 in 2020 (none / 0) (#124)
    by CST on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 11:05:21 AM EST
    That said, she is 6 years younger than Biden and 8 years younger than Bernie.

    She's not my first pick, but she's definitely not my last pick either and I'd take her over either of the two mentioned above.  I agree that she should expand beyond economics but frankly she's about where Bernie was on that aspect.  Not that that's a good thing.


    Not the last (none / 0) (#125)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 11:18:50 AM EST
    Definitely not the first.  

    I don't really get this 23&me thing.

    Does she really think showing she is 1/1000 something NA is going to be anything but a Trump applause line?

    Also why do we need to talk about this 2 weeks before the most important election in our lifetime?


    As for why now (none / 0) (#126)
    by CST on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 11:42:41 AM EST
    Because as soon as the midterms are over, the 2020 race starts and she's trying to get ahead of the game.

    Not saying I agree with that approach but it's pretty clear that's the idea.


    I agree (none / 0) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 11:44:41 AM EST
    It's dumb

    Still (none / 0) (#128)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 12:03:36 PM EST
    She could be a great VP

    I'm agnostic (none / 0) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 08:44:16 AM EST
    on whether she runs or not. However I think her running is definitely going to end Bernie's campaign very soon after the primary voting starts or even before. I also expect the bros to start attacking her very soon like they have already done with Harris and Booker.

    Frankly, I hope she rounds herself out more than she currently is. Economics is good but you need to know more than that for president.


    As someone who has taken several (none / 0) (#131)
    by ragebot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 01:38:18 PM EST
    DNA tests and spent way too much time on researching my ancestors I also have mixed feeling about this.  Determining NA ancestry is one of the most discussed topics on the ancestry sites.

    The amount of FUD about DNA tests is a constant topic on the ancestry boards.  There are three basic types of DNA tests, autosomal, yDNA and mtDNA.  Warren seems to have taken, I am still looking for a source to verify this, the Autosomal test and here is a good description of it's usage related to NA ancestry from this link.

    An autosomal DNA test is better for ruling out Native American ancestry than it is for proving it.

    As research goes back in time the Nyquist limit also becomes an issue.  A quotation from the link above.

    Even if your 6x great-grandparent born in 1790 was 100% Native American (and their spouse was European), the most Native ancestry you could show is less than 1% which is less than what most DNA companies will report on.
    That's why autosomal DNA tests aren't all that great once you get beyond 5-6 generations.

    I suspect this is why Warren did not take a commercially available test like FamilyTree, 23&Me, or Ancestry.  Since those tests don't report less than 1% ancestry she would not have shown up as having NA ancestors.

    To make matters even worse autosomal DNA testing does not have standards to determine which geographical area is linked to which genome, e.g. different companies use different sequences to identify which geographical region a person's ancestors came from.  NA tribes discourage their members from getting DNA tests so researchers use sequences from their supposed ancestors, e.g. since early NAs migrated from Asia sequences from there are assumed to represent NAs.

    Bottom line is the conclusion of the DNA report.

    Conclusion. While the vast majority of the individual's ancestry is European, the results strongly support the existence of an unadmixed Native American ancestor in the individual's pedigree, likely in the range of 6-10 generations ago

    Unless you can define "unadmixed" of the top of your head related to a DNA test you need to get up to speed before you comment on this.

    No doubt in my mind the right way to approach this would be for Warren to take a mtDNA test and post the results on every DNA data base she could find.


    personally (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by CST on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 01:53:41 PM EST
    I think the proper way to handle this was to tell Trump and all the right wing trolls to go f*ck themselves.

    But then I'm not a senator running for president.


    I did not watch 60 minutes (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:06:03 AM EST
    Only the parts shown in the MJ coverage but damn.

    It was something.

    "What is an ally?"

    I guess the (none / 0) (#119)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:57:24 AM EST
    parody of him wearing a diaper with a cell phone stuck in the diaper must get under his skin since he said several times he is not a baby.

    Not even the most basic understanding of anything it seems.


    The day after the families being separated (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 11:00:06 AM EST
    Was announced, me and Josh and my oldest granddaughter went downtown to see if there was a protest. There was a few protesters, and I saw a truck that had digital signs driving around the white house with protest signage on it.

    The next day I saw a photo of the truck in my Twitter feed, it was from the truck owner Claude Taylor. So I followed him.

    Claude decided to have small balloons resembling the Trump baby balloon flown over London manufactured. He sells them, gives them away, whatever it takes. He puts anti Trump bill boards up all over the country too.

    Claude has organized protests in Lafayette Park, renamed the White House the Kremlin annex, and when he found out the T-rex costume last Halloween scared Trump he arranged for 2 dancing T-rex to be outside the White House often. He has also arranged for drummers to follow certain White House staff (like John Kelly) on and off the White House grounds.

    He has also been releasing helium inflated Trump baby in diaper balloons in Trump Tower and also Trump's DC hotel , they float up to the high ceilings and hang around all day. His friends make a game out sneaking the balloons through the doors and once released they often put the photos on Twitter. But the Trump diapered baby balloons were bound to get back to him eventually if he wasn't actually confronted with them floating around too high to nab while eating at his DC hotel.

    There are also Trump dog turd bags available through Claude now too. Since Trump hates dogs he probably hasn't been confronted with those though.


    If we were not all so numb (none / 0) (#120)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 10:19:54 AM EST
    There would be justified hysteria this morning.  It was unbelievable

    When he said that I wish Stahl had said, "you know, that's a great question.  How do YOU define an ally?"


    KIDDING (none / 0) (#121)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 10:31:53 AM EST
    I love this show.  Last night there was a kind of twisted homage to the Monty Python parrot skit.

    Backstage, Jeff meets Tara Lipinski's twin sister Sara (pronounced Sah-rah because Tara doesn't want their names to rhyme). Here again we're thrown into the surreality of differentiating between twins as a larger comment on identity. It turns out that Tara is kind of a jerk to her sister -- Jeff gets an earful from Tara's parakeet (her "Tarakeet"), who parrots the verbal abuse that goes on between them. Jeff, never one to tolerate anyone using a swear word, rapidly flips the light switch to give the bird a seizure and kill it. Great, Jeff, you've really grown.

    Amazing.  The actuAl skater Tara Lipinski who is great.  At the end he makes a Poltergeist style coffin for the dead parrot with a photo of Tara and walks out to bury it.

    It pouring rain.

    He sticks it in the disposal.

    I love this show.

    Wow (none / 0) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 01:06:16 PM EST
    SEARS files for bankruptcy

    Hope my heat/AC is still covered.

    This has been a foregone conclusion... (none / 0) (#145)
    by desertswine on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 01:28:07 PM EST
    for a number of years now.  It was being run by a hedge-fund pirate.

    The big question is, what am I gonna wipe my butt with?


    A Sears poncho? (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by jondee on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 01:36:26 PM EST
    Stormy Daniles case dismissed (none / 0) (#134)
    by ragebot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 05:46:36 PM EST
    she is also required to pay Trump's lawyers fees.

    Oh, the irony (none / 0) (#135)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 06:13:07 PM EST
    The man who wants to weaken libel/defamation standards whenever he's criticized and is single-handedly trying to eviscerate the 1st Amendment hides behind it whenever he lies about others.

    I hate to say it, but (none / 0) (#140)
    by Peter G on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 07:42:44 PM EST
    I think the ruling is correct, as a matter of First Amendment law and principles. Tr*mp called some of her claims "a total con job." That's what she sued on. The judge characterized his statement as political rhetoric and hyperbole. I agree that it's not quite the same as directly calling her a liar.

    Agreed (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Yman on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 09:34:54 PM EST
    Just pointing out Trump's hypocrisy - not that it's anything new.

    First link (none / 0) (#136)
    by ragebot on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 06:15:46 PM EST
    Qualify (none / 0) (#137)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 06:44:39 PM EST
    it as defamation which is hard to prove.

    However never fear there are about 20 other cases pending against Trump.


    Nope (none / 0) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Oct 15, 2018 at 06:47:41 PM EST
    she is not required to pay Trump's legal fees. Trump however can make her pay "reasonable" legal fees whatever that amount may be but he cannot make her pay all his legal fees.

    After only four days on the job ... (none / 0) (#147)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 04:21:43 PM EST
    ... as Interim Chief Executive Officer of the much-troubled USA Gymnastics organization, former California GOP Congresswoman Mary Bono has been summarily forced to resign her new position following her terribly ill-advised tweet criticizing Colin Kaepernick, which had quickly incurred the wrath of star U.S. gymnast Simone Biles.

    To all those on the right who are presently criticizing Bono's ouster as another example of political correctness run amok, please be advised that our First Amendment right to freedom of speech only prohibits our government from arresting or otherwise persecuting us for what we say.

    It doesn't mean that everyone else has to listen to our bull$chitt, or that online hosts like TL's Jeralyn have to tolerate our presence whenever we decide to share it. The First Amendment does not shield you from either criticism or consequences of what you say.

    So, if you've been reprimanded, chastised, fired or boycotted, or your hit show has been cancelled by the network or you're banned from an online community, your right to free speech has not been violated or compromised.

    Rather, it's just that the people who've been hearing you have decided that you're an obnoxious a$$hole, and they're merely showing you the door -- as is also their right.

    Buh-bye, Mary. Don't let that door hit you in the a$$ on your way out.

    I remember (none / 0) (#149)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 04:47:16 PM EST
    her being on the judiciary committee during the whole Clinton impeachment. She was a complete idiot who had to be fed questions. She also had ties to Larry Nassar. What is it with Republicans and their attachments to pedophiles?

    If you care (none / 0) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 06:34:54 PM EST

    How to watch, stream the Ted Cruz - Beto O'Rourke debate

    The second, and likely last, debate between the two candidates for U.S. Senator in Texas - Republican Ted Cruz and Democrat Beto O'Rourke - is tonight. With less than a month until Election Day, both candidates need every remaining opportunity to try to win over voters. The debate starts at 8 p.m. Central Time

    Are you going (none / 0) (#153)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 06:44:47 PM EST
    to watch?

    Sub watch (none / 0) (#155)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 06:54:31 PM EST
    It won't be the only thing I'm watching probably.

     It's two weeks till Halloween so there is more classic horror than I can watch.

    But yeah.  I'm curious.  It's time for you best stuff.


    Ill say this for Beto (5.00 / 3) (#156)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Oct 16, 2018 at 08:16:01 PM EST
    Win or lose he's running as a progressive.

    My mail in ballot (none / 0) (#157)
    by fishcamp on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 05:56:45 AM EST
    is marked, sealed, and signed.  I'm dropping it off at the Post Office this morning on my way to the gym.  It's a good feeling.

    Trump is comparing (none / 0) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 11:01:09 AM EST
    Kashoggi to Kavanaugh.

    Do you think the comparison occurred to him when he heard they turned up the music to drown out his screams?

    The death penalty for shoplifting (none / 0) (#161)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 12:45:12 PM EST
    ONION (none / 0) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Oct 17, 2018 at 01:00:06 PM EST

    RIYADH, SAUDI ARABIA--In a press conference ahead of a meeting with U.S. secretary of state Mike Pompeo, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman admitted Tuesday that journalist Jamal Khashoggi died during a botched assassination attempt. "We lured Mr. Khashoggi to our consulate in Turkey for what was supposed to be a straightforward, routine execution, but things went off the rails at some point during the torture portion, and he accidentally bled out," said the crown prince, adding that under normal circumstances, journalists who negatively portray the Saudi regime are eliminated efficiently and without international uproar. "We offer our sincere apologies to the Khashoggi family for mishandling Jamal's slaughter. This should have been a quick in-and-out death and dismemberment situation, not the drawn-out, hours-long bloodbath it turned into. We flubbed this one big time." The crown prince also assured journalists that Saudi leaders plan to implement new murder guidelines to standardize future assassinations and reduce instances of bungled hits.