Monday Open Thread

I have seen so little news I didn't even know the Emmys were on last night. Apparently, Steven Colbert was not appreciated, as ratings were very very low. Was it Irma? Or has Trump-bashing lost its appeal? I pretty much ignore everything about him, so I'm probably not the one to ask. I deplore him as much today as I did during his campaign.

Has anyone bought the iPhone 8? Do you like it?

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Roger Waters Us and Them Tour... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by kdog on Mon Sep 18, 2017 at 02:44:34 PM EST
    rolled through town and I caught the Friday Night show...it was as visually stunningly glorious as it was aurally stunningly glorious.  Tunes sounded great, Roger put a killer band together for this tour, and boy did he really let Trump have it.  And the Zionist protesters outside for that matter.  Love ya Rog!

    I will never listen to Pigs (Three Different Ones)the same again, it was the highlight of the night for me.  "Big Man, Pig Man...Ha Ha, Charade you are!"


    Dick Cavett's Vietnam (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Mon Sep 18, 2017 at 03:03:04 PM EST
    was run last night on PBS.  Interesting and eclectic interviewees such as Wesley Clark, Jane Fonda, Daniel Ellsberg, Groucho Marx, Paul Newman, Jefferson Airplane, and a much decorated, young Marine veteran, Robert Mueller.

    Mueller, who was in his twenties at the time of the interview, came across as level-headed and sanguine.
    Unlike many, Mueller praised conscientious objectors for their principled stance.  Of course, the issue of bone spurs as a basis for deferment did not come up in the interview.  

    Dick Cavett is a great guy. (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by fishcamp on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 08:05:18 AM EST
    I worked with him years ago on a film shoot in Europe.  He speaks flawless German and was over there doing TV Guide work for Germany, Austria, and Switzerland.  We filmed him on the fabulous Orient Express train from Venice to Innsbruck, which is only a five hour trip.  You can ride that train in segments, as well as the entire route.  He showed up a week early in Venice where we were working with Angie Dickinson, Susan Sullivan, and Father Guido Sarducci.  He hung out with the camera crew most of the time and is a very funny guy.  I asked him why he didn't hang with the stars and he told me he was tired of stars and preferred we working folks.  

    In Innsbruck we worked with Robert Urich and Jennie Lee Harrison.  Robert Urich was married to Heather Menzies at the time.  Heather Menzies was the little girl in pigtails in The Sound of Music which was filmed around the mountain in Salzburg.  When the Salzburgers found out she was in Innsbruck literally thousands came to see her.  Fortunately the writer was with us and he rewrote the script to include her.  That was a great job.


    As you can see (none / 0) (#71)
    by fishcamp on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 08:29:54 AM EST
    I'm slowly catching up with the previous posts.  Monday was a very bad day here in the keys.  I'm a very fast reader, but a very slow writer.  I love this catching up on comments, but don't like the reason I'm so behind...Irma.

    I hope the reason for low ratings (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Peter G on Mon Sep 18, 2017 at 04:14:42 PM EST
    for the Emmys was that the intelligent, education-hungry American TV-watching audience opted instead for Ken Burns' new documentary on the Vietnam War. (A boy can dream, can't he?)

    dream he can (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 18, 2017 at 06:11:54 PM EST
    but the show was IMO dreadful.  Colbert was not funny.  i would bet about 10 million people changed the channel when Spicer rolled out to kick off his "normalization" tour.

    i watched it on delay so i could just FF from one win to the next and still the look on some of the presenters faces when they had to read those painfully dumb teleprompter lines was the best part.


    that said (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 18, 2017 at 06:22:01 PM EST
    Vietnam was amazing.  just amazing.  i watched it today.

    the intro alone, containing pretty much every infamous bit of news footage - the little naked girl, the guy shot in the head, Kent State - all in reverse.  over Bob Dylan.  amazing.  taking us back to the French history few know.


    ... when we visited Vietnam a few years ago. That battlefield is a national shrine. It was an amazing victory for the Viet Minh in 1954, yet the U.S. failed to heed any of that war's lessons and instead ended up supporting the odious Diem in the south.

    Looking forward to tonight's episode.


    so, i work up today.... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 10:13:27 AM EST
    worked on the deck before the rain, then i watched episode 2 "RIDING THE TIGER".

    Then i wayched persident President Donald Trump address the UN.

    no, really, I watched President Donald Trump address the UN.  imagine hearing that 10 years ago.  or 5.  or 2.

    he is obviously going to get an EMMY for that doc but he should get some additional award for TIMING.

    there is  nothing more important for the PBS audience to hear than what this doc has to say as Trump says the sh!t he said today.

    seeing the two sequentially was like seeing space time jumping SciFi movie.


    Worst speech that I ever heard... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by desertswine on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 12:25:06 PM EST
    trump threatens to blow up the world if he doesn't get his way.  Disorganized and threatening.  

    there was a quote in last nights episode (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 10:29:57 AM EST
    from a person from South Vietnam.  as close as i remember...

    '...our leaders were corrupt and incompetent.  we knew they would win.'


    ... to the 4th Vietnamese Marine Battalion, which was the unit that attacked the presidential palace in Saigon during the Nov. 1-2 coup against President Diem. He brought the troops into downtown Saigon, pre-positioned them for the assault, and then withdrew himself to the U.S. embassy to give himself and the U.S. government plausible deniability in the action, so that no Americans could be accused of having participated directly in the coup.

    President Kennedy afterward felt remorse and shame for the military coup against Diem, as well he should have. He had signed off his approval on it personally, and in bringing his battalion into downtown Saigon, my father had acted under direct orders of his superiors, Col. Joseph Taylor of the 2nd Marine Reconnaissance Battalion ("Force Recon"), and Gen. Wallace Greene, who was then USMC Commandant.

    That's why I've long taken issue with those who've claimed that Kennedy would've withdrawn us from Vietnam. By countenancing the coup, he had effectively doubled down on U.S. involvement in the conflict. It makes absolutely no sense that he would've first agreed to Diem's overthrow and then told the world, "Hey, we're outa here."

    The tragedy of it all was that by virtue of his own assassination three weeks later, Kennedy had left his successor Lyndon Johnson holding the bag, having already committed the United States to the role of protagonist in what had been up to that point a Vietnamese civil war. Johnson, to his discredit, simply allowed that trajectory to carry this country to an eminently logical conclusion, which of course was a full-scale American military intervention following the congressional adoption of the infamous "Gulf of Tonkin resolution" in August 1964.

    By that time, of course, my father had already lost his life in a Feb. 16, 1964 NLF terrorist attack on the Capital Kinh Do movie theatre in downtown Saigon, having become the 215th U.S. serviceman to be killed in a war that would ultimately take nearly 60,000 American lives. His name is listed on Panel 1E, Line 43 of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington.

    In some of his final letters home to my mother, he had actively conveyed his disgust with his own role in Diem's overthrow, lamented the increased U.S. military presence in Vietnam, and talked about resigning his commission once his current tour of duty was up in June of that year.

    In one bit of irony, Marine Capt. Donald Cook took my father's place as chief U.S. advisor to the 4th Vietnamese Marine Battalion. On 30-31 December 1964, the battalion was ambushed by elements of the Viet Cong 9th Division near the Quang Giao rubber plantation in the Mekong Delta region, and suffered 60% casualties. Col. Cook was taken prisoner by the Viet Cong during the action, and reportedly died of malaria while in captivity in Dec. 1967. His body was never recovered.

    I truly hope that people watch Ken Burns's "The Vietnam War," and thus perhaps gain a fuller understanding of one of the greatest self-inflicted clusterf*cks in U.S. history by which collectively, we essentially became the all-too-willing victims of our own nation's military hubris.



    I zoned out during most of it (none / 0) (#22)
    by ruffian on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:30:13 AM EST
    then woke up for the actual awards. I think Colbert stopped being funny, for the most part anyway, when he went mainstream on CBS. His Trump impression is excruciatingly bad. I hope the live feedback he got from the audience there was tepid enough to convince him of that, but I doubt it.

    Plus I just have my select few stars I love and don't care much about the rest. Or even recognize many of them.

    I have Vietnam recorded and will start watching later in the week.  

    Tonight: going to Tampa to see my Cubbies!!!


    Do watch Burns' Vietnam (none / 0) (#59)
    by Towanda on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 08:30:18 PM EST
    . . . despite the many Burnsian lines that make many historians cringe -- and far more important, despite the deep pain that watching this brings back for my generation.  I head soon to a fiftieth! Anniversry reunion of my high school class, and even the fifth-year reunion was so sad, as we mourned many classmates whomhad died in Viet Nam (I prefer spelling it as its people do).  And more would die in the thre years still remaining in the war.

    And more have died since, due to the war, whose names are not on the wall.  My first husband died only a fe years ago, due to -- according to the VA, which does so only grudgingly -- Agent Oorange, to which he was exposed at Da Nang.  And Da Nang is, to this day, one of the most toxic sites in the world, due to us.

    It is a penance that I pay, that I owe. I have seen every movie and documentary, I have read every book, but I still feel guilty that we in the war at home did not win our battles soon enough. I know that the scenes of marches and protests will make me taste the tear gas again, as they always do.  But I owe it the boys they were to warch and mourn them again, and again, and again. . . .

    Of course, I also felt myself saying today, after watching the large orange lout threaten nuclear war that would kill at least 25 million, why are we not marching in the atreets against that again . . .NOW?

    And cringe, with me, every times that Birns wrote "never again" would we Americans act so atrociously on the world stage as we did in Viet Nam. We learned nothing.


    Well said, there is so much emotion that I still (none / 0) (#68)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 08:09:38 AM EST
    feel even though I was just a kid when it ended. I would not miss this doc for anything, just need some real time to focus and devote to it, which I don't have this week.

    At some point I stopped reading the books and watching other documentaries just because other things took precedence, but we should revisit this history often.

    I have seen nearly all of Ken Burns' documentaries. I know critics have argued about focus and the choice of commenters in some instances, but given that there is never one definitive viewpoint on history I think he does a very thorough job and finds images, film and stories that are fresh and not the same things we have seen 1000 times. The most recent ones, the only thing I cringe at is the Peter Coyote narration, which for some reason grates on me, even though I love him as an actor. I hope this is better in that regard - that is a lot of hours to listen to that voice.


    Yes, Burns' strength is the visuals (none / 0) (#74)
    by Towanda on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 10:53:16 AM EST
    and that makes it worthwhile for me to watch his work, if while cringing -- about far more than focus that you note. (I have no issue with his commenters, and Coyote is okay in this one -- other than that the commenters reflect the larger issue of the lack of diversity throughout Burns' work, from the start, when many hours on the Civil War included only a few minutes on women. . . .  His work could have been researchd and written  more than half a century ago; he has entirely missed the work of historians since . . . or, if he read it, he does not get it -- only getting the minutiae, not the significance of the arguments. It is the argument that makes significant historiography, not the minutiae in the evidence. And even half a century ago, good historians knew better than to write "ever again," etc.)

    interesting (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 05:09:01 PM EST
    ive seen two episodes and i thought it was Kevin Kostner.  without really looking or caring.

    the narration is fine with me and im not a Kevin Kostner fan.


    IndieWire (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 05:15:20 PM EST
    The Vietnam War" exists as a vibrant portrait of this era in global history because it avoids the reductive us vs. them, good vs. bad, hero vs. enemy dichotomy that helped to fuel the flames of this conflict for so long. It's a historical investigation that doesn't exist as a corrective to the mistakes of the past, but its greatest value lies in searching for the context that members of the Defense Department and various media outlets and even some international world leaders failed to grasp. There was never one direct cause. No single solution would have prevented or avoided the bloodshed that continued on for successive decades.

    As a piece of documentary filmmaking, "The Vietnam War" doesn't purport to have answers to every lingering question from the 1960s and `70s and beyond. It considers the sacrifices made in the name of a changing objective, remembering those who strove to bring some sense of understanding to an era when ideological showmanship led to the deaths of so many. As the world once again faces uncertain times, "The Vietnam War" challenges an entire nation to examine the sources of its enmity and not repeat catastrophes so recent that those directly affected by it can still lend their voices to the warning.

    good review


    It's a very powerful film. (none / 0) (#82)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 21, 2017 at 03:40:36 AM EST
    But admittedly, it's been very painful for me to watch. I don't know, maybe I'm just too close to the subject matter. I think the most heartbreaking for me as an historian is listening to the audiotaped voice of President Johnson, whose initially wary instincts about getting the U.S. involved in Vietnam proved to be tragically correct in retrospect.

    Time and again, LBJ questioned those instincts and instead deferred to the advice of others, particularly Defense Sec. Robert McNamara and his theatre commander Gen. William Westmoreland. But he had been harboring doubts about the Vietnam enterprise as early as the fall of 1963, when he opposed President Kennedy's decision to support the military coup against South Vietnam's Ngo Dinh Diem.

    It's left me with the sad feeling that this would all have been so avoidable, if only LBJ had displayed the sort of personal confidence about his own initial instincts and judgments with regards to the Vietnam War, which he had exhibited in pursuit of his domestic agenda such as the Civil Rights Act, etc. Yet for some reason, when in the presence of McNamara and his generals, he doubted, demurred, hesitated and suggested, rather than commanded.

    The consequences of brushing aside those inner voices were disastrous.


    I can't get a signal for the local PBS (none / 0) (#78)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 02:22:36 PM EST
    stations around here. I will have to hope it's available on Amazon Prime sometime soon. I have the old Time-Life book series on the Vietnam War. Bought the entire set years ago. It is very good. Gives perspectives from the North, as well as what other countries were doing during that time.

    I lived in Yokosuka, Japan at the height of Vietnam. The Naval hospital on the base was the closest full hospital at the time. I lived near the heliport where wounded were brought in often. They had a large bus outfitted as an ambulance.


    you can (none / 0) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 05:03:35 PM EST
    Thanks Capn. (none / 0) (#84)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 21, 2017 at 08:31:52 AM EST
    I just a bought a new Roku TCL TV. I'll have to see if I can get the PBS app installed into it.

    i got a cheap deshtop (none / 0) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Sep 21, 2017 at 04:39:53 PM EST
    to run through my tv for those things that dont have convenient apps.  works great.  desktops now come with HDMI out.

    Most Conservatives (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by MKS on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 09:59:06 AM EST
    are conservatives because of cultural reasons, not other issues, not economics, not foreign policy.  Trump has proven that.

    What really strikes me is that you will often hear a conservative talk about how offended they are that cultural elites look down on them....This really drives many of them.

    But, just what are they talking about?  Cultural conservatives were the ones years ago who made fun of anyone who was different--gays, feminists, minorities, tree huggers, etc.  They were in years past the "moral majority" and "real" America.

    The Culture has changed and there is a certain social shaming of people who want to bully gays etc.  

    And that social shaming is what they object to.  

    It is all a reactionary movement against modernity.  Against the modern role of women. Against gays being so "brazenly" out of the closet.  Against white guys not getting preferential treatment.

    This too shall pass.  But the reaction, all actions things have an equal reaction, is not pleasant.

    Changing role of women (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by MKS on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 10:06:33 AM EST
    I saw a statistic that really surprised me.

    Many know that women are a majority of students enrolled in college in many professional schools, law school, medical school, etc.

    But women are also a large majority of those who finish competitive and official races: 5k, 10k half marathons.....all majority women finishers...Something like 60-65% of 5k finishers nationally are women.  Only at the marathon distance do men regain majority status.

    Come to think of it, the people seen running in the neighborhood are often women.

    Just a very interesting fact. Why?   Hmm, more worried about their physical appearance? More motivated and responsible?  Better educated so better sense of self and more generally motivated to take care of themselves?


    And I have seen (none / 0) (#12)
    by MKS on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 10:08:25 AM EST
    more than one woman crank out ten or more pull ups at the gym.  That is impressive and hard to do.  Most guys can't do that.   Most guys at the gym can't do that.

    Not the study I saw (none / 0) (#14)
    by MKS on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 10:20:42 AM EST

    There are a lot of women who participate in races as a way of doing something fun together with friends. Often you have groups of women who sign up for the race together, even if some or all of the women really don't run with any kind of regularity. Though men for sure will do a race because friend(s) are doing it, I see it less than with women.

    Many races are associated with a charitable goal, or have a theme such that participants can wear some kind of outfit, or something, making them even more attractive to some women. Again, from what I've seen this type of thing is generally more attractive to women than men, though clearly some men clearly really like it too.

    There are a lot of women who will simply walk a race, often in groups of their friends. They really don't care what their times are or what place they come in. Men are often less OK with this type of thing, in my observation.

    Many of the above are also some of the reasons the shortest road races (commonly the 5K) are often the most popular. Women (and men) can do them on a whim and be pretty confident of being able to finish.

    Also there are numerous women-only races, and some are really large (like 20K+ participants). I don't think I've ever heard of a men-only race.


    The stroll and chat ladies (none / 0) (#75)
    by MKS on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 10:53:37 AM EST
    might explain some of the women finishers of 5k races.

    But women also comprise a majority of 10k and half marathon finishers too.  And those races are not really conducive to stroll and chat.


    Though I discussed more than simply (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 12:12:33 PM EST
    those you label "stroll and chat ladies," in my experience there is a similar social aspect to many race distances, including the 10K that you single out.

    fwiw, there are many participants (both men and women), from the shortest distance to the longest, who simply walk or walk/jog. I've done it myself when I've been nursing an injury.

    That said, I don't think 1/2 the marathoners are women.

    According to Running USA, Statista, Running Competitor, etc., US marathon finishers have been about 56-57% male, 43-44%% female for a number of years now. Although the female % does seem to be gradually rising for sure.

    Still unsure what any of this really means though...


    A little more body fat (none / 0) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:44:18 AM EST
    A little more endurance. Sadly we can't rebuild muscle as quickly as men though. Sometimes the estrogen is in your favor when your burnin it down in the heat of the test but testerone rebuilds it faster.

    I think (none / 0) (#24)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:40:22 AM EST
    conservatives' perceptions of diminished privilege register with them as oppression.  Hence, the woe-is-me'ing....and victimhood that not only Trump commiserates with, but also, will return them to the good old days...making America Great Again, circa 1950.  

    You are absolutely correct. (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 12:46:20 PM EST
    I have said in the past, it seems like conservatives thinks if someone else is gaining, or making gains, they are somehow losing something. Or if someone is getting hand up or a boost, then somehow they are being pushed down. I don't understand it myself. There doesn't always have to be winners and losers. Why can't we all be winners?

    one other thing (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 10:45:58 AM EST
    far to little attention has been given to the fact Donald was right,

    his wirws WERE tapped.


    His wires were crossed ;) (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:39:05 AM EST
    Roger Stone seems a little upset on Twitter that all his conversations with Manafort were probably collected.

    I saw that (none / 0) (#76)
    by MKS on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 11:05:28 AM EST
    Unreal.....Trump wanted Comey to quash the investigation because he knows it will hit paydirt if it is pursued vigorously.

    Checking in from (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 10:48:38 AM EST
    Jamaica. I'm in a country that makes more sense than the. US these days. There is a WTF is wrong with America these days overseas. That shock and horror you saw on the faces across the world after the election last year was real.

    Enjoy (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Yman on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:18:56 AM EST
    Have some rum, go snorkeling, watch a few sunsets and try to forget about the orange imbecile for awhile.

    Going (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 04:47:13 PM EST
    Snorkeling on the morning. Jamaica seems to think it is important to keep up with world events so there is the Orange idiot screaming on the news synopsis they deliver to my door every day.

    Well south of the hurricanes, then? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:24:35 AM EST
    Good choice.

    But hopefully not far from... (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 01:01:32 PM EST
    the Hurricanes with Jamaican Rum;)

    Get irie GA, smoke one of Jamaica's finest for me!


    Don't (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 04:56:14 PM EST
    Smoke k dog but the rum sure is cheap here along with all liquor it seems.we are staying in an all inclusive resort so I have been trying a bunch of new drinks!

    I hope they have some real reggae (none / 0) (#64)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 09:38:30 PM EST
    and ska for you, even if you aren't getting out to town.

    Not as easy as you'd think... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 10:30:47 AM EST
    to find in Jamaica...so much dancehall now, not enough roots!!!

    Don jr. (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 12:22:27 PM EST
    is forgoing his Secret Service protection. He may be taken under the wing of Trump's long-time muscle, Keith Schiller, the recently departed White House aide without portfolio.  The reason for Don jr. jettisoning his governmental protection is..privacy.  Perhaps, so as to discuss Russian adoptions  outside of Secret Service earshot.

    Kellyanne Conway has also announced that she is foregoing her Secret Service protection.  The big surprise here, is that she actually had such protection in the first place.

    I heard (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 12:37:03 PM EST
    And Kellyanne was just running around Wyoming with 7 of them in tow during the eclipse.

    Can Secret Service wear a wire for a Mueller investigation?


    Jimmy Kimmel hurts Republicans' feelings. (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 21, 2017 at 04:14:12 AM EST
    One word: Good.

    indictments by winter (none / 0) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 18, 2017 at 06:07:50 PM EST
    Maggie Haberman

    Mueller told Manafort to expect an indictment, per LaFraniere, @mattapuzzo @adamgoldmanNYT mobile.nytimes.com/2...
    13 minutes ago · Twitter

    I just posted a link to a CNN article stating that (none / 0) (#6)
    by vml68 on Mon Sep 18, 2017 at 06:13:10 PM EST
    Manafort was wiretapped before and after the election, on the previous thread.

    heres the times link again (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Sep 18, 2017 at 06:14:25 PM EST
    If McCain votes for the repeal (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:25:54 AM EST

    I think he won't.

    Let's hope so.

    But, (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:44:07 AM EST
    Lindsey.  And, the Arizona Governor whispered into his ear, too.  I sure hope that McCain sticks to his most recent gun.  But, I don't think it is ever wise to bet the farm on McCain.

    McCain is on the record as saying he (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:57:10 AM EST
    would defer to his state's governor, who has now endorsed the bill, but good luck figuring out if that means McCain will vote for it.  Why?  Because he's also said he thinks the bill should be taken up under regular order rules, with hearings, but he's also said that not moving forward under regular order doesn't mean he won't still vote for it.

    The Hill:

    Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) said Wednesday that he supports a newer version of an ObamaCare repeal-and-replace bill, throwing some support behind the last-ditch effort.

    McCain said he backs a bill from Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Bill Cassidy (R-La.) that would convert ObamaCare spending into block grants for states.

    Asked if he supported it, McCain told reporters, "Yes. You think I wouldn't be?"


    "If it's not through regular order then it's a mistake, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't vote for it," McCain said when asked about his previous statements.

    In a statement later in the day on Wednesday, McCain took a step back from his earlier comments, saying he still needed to see the final bill and that committee hearings are in fact necessary.  

    "As I have said all along, any effort to replace Obamacare must be done through the regular order of committee hearings, open debate and amendments from both sides of the aisle," McCain said in a statement.

    I'm sure he'll have something else to say that will further muddy the waters.


    If he destroys the ACA sanctuary (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 12:42:45 PM EST
    Of no pre-existing conditions and no lifetime caps and no premium increases for the ill, his legacy will be cruelty. And that's it.

    Fix ACA McCain! This is easy


    Contrast the McCain/GOP attitude (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 01:02:02 PM EST
    against that of Mazie Hirono: both Senators dealing with life-threatening medical conditions (him, malignant brain tumor; her, stage 4 kidney cancer).  

    What do you wanna bet McCain never even looks at his Explanations of Benefits, or the bills, to see what it would mean for someone less entitled to be facing a similar situation without health insurance.

    This whole thing about block grants to the states is just such utterly vile and evil BS I can't stand it.  I'm completely over the idea that where you live can determine whether you live or die, and I don't for one minute buy the ridiculous argument that states know better what their people need, because no one prefers to live lives of sickness, poverty and desperation.  

    And I don't understand how that can be acceptable to anyone remotely human.

    As Hirono said last night on Rachel, Republicans see health care as a commodity: if you can pay for it, great; if not, oh, well...too bad, so sad.

    McCain?  I'm done with him and his vanity.


    Listening to Graham (none / 0) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 01:39:56 PM EST
    And the rest of the hooligans

    They're shopping around that the states that expanded medicaid are getting all the money. Duh, Because they are caring for people. That's why WE chose to live in Maryland now...they're sane.

    I have read Tweets that the states can spend the block grant money on whatever they want. I don't know if that's true. If it is, Alabama is soooo broke they will spend that money plugging up the gaping budget holes. They have no middle class, they keep voting for state policies that destroy the middle class and a tax base.


    Now Schumer and the Dems speaking (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 01:42:08 PM EST
    Schumer is debunking the blue states get all the money spiel. Doing a great job.

    Schumer says Republican Senators (none / 0) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 01:45:41 PM EST
    Aren't fully reading the bill they are voting for. They refuse to honestly understand what this bill will do. They can't answer constituent's questions about how they will be affected.

    And if they won't wait for a CBO score (none / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 01:49:20 PM EST
    It isn't a mystery how this turns out for health care and people. Similar bills have been scored and it isn't good.

    Health care is 1/6th of our economy. If they blow it up, what does that do to our economy also?


    Son Zorba (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Zorba on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 02:26:11 PM EST
    Has a previously existing condition (several, actually). And he is self- employed.
    He was not able to get health insurance before the ACA until he was able to get on Maryland's state health insurance for those who could not get it otherwise.  This was not Medicaid, and it certainly wasn't free, but it was reasonably priced and most physicians accepted it.
    After the ACA passed, Maryland stopped that special health insurance but the son was able to purchase another policy at a comparable price, since they were not able to exclude him.
    If ACA is voted out by the Repubs, I don't know what Son Zorba will do if his current insurance dumps him and he cannot get another.
    Maybe Maryland will reinstitute their previous state insurance, but how long would it take?  Not to mention we have a Republican governor right now, and I don't know how much he would fight this.
    You know, what we really need in this country is some type of universal health care.  Something like a single-payer Medicare For All.  

    I'm so exhausted (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 03:15:34 PM EST
    And that's what the GOP is hoping for. Gotta pull it together and find my focus and make the calls and Tweet the Tweets.

    Even if Maryland reinstitites (none / 0) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 03:11:05 PM EST
    The state insurance he needs, that takes time to get done. Pretty hard to not have a coverage gap.

    Yep, exactly so. (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Zorba on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 03:28:11 PM EST
    If worse comes to worst, all we can hope for is that he would not have a major medical crisis before that time because he could not afford to pay for that.  We would help as much as we could, but it's not like we're rolling in the big bucks, ourselves.
    When Son Zorba was in high school, way back when, he told me "I could never be a Republican, Mom. They're just too mean."
    He was right then, and he's still right.

    CNN says (none / 0) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 03:49:52 PM EST
    Pre existing conditions back on the table. But mandates are gone. And who knows what that really means?

    I'm glad John Barrasso isn't my doctor, (5.00 / 4) (#51)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 04:05:37 PM EST
    but he sure can rattle off the talking points (lies).

    He's quite the jerk.


    Zorba, our GOP governor opposes the bill. (none / 0) (#60)
    by Anne on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 08:30:40 PM EST
    From The Sun:

    The governor released a statement emphasizing that the current law needs to be fixed, but he rejected the repeal measure sponsored by Republican Sens. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Bill Cassidy of Louisiana.

    "Unfortunately, the Graham-Cassidy bill is not a solution that works for Maryland. It will cost our state over $2 billion annually while directly jeopardizing the health care of our citizens," Hogan said. "We need common sense, bipartisan solutions that will stabilize markets and actually expand affordable coverage."

    Hogan called on congressional Republicans and Democrats to negotiate a deal to shore up the Affordable Care Act.

    Good (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Zorba on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 09:52:10 AM EST
    Several GOP governors oppose the Graham-Cassidy bill.
    Maybe a couple of the GOP Senators in those states will listen to their states governors.
    We can only hope.
    Fortunately, we have two Democratic Senators, and no way are they voting for this abomination of a bill.

    ... and Sen. John McCain is while Ms. Hirono has long been a real workhorse at both the state legislative and congressional levels of government, McCain has never really been anything but a braying jackass all dressed up in the self-aggrandizing harness of a show horse.

    After their respective cancer surgeries, they both returned to work in Washington the same day -- only Mazie did so without the accompanying press releases and media fanfare.

    It was really good to see her back home in Hawaii last month. And I think that for her, it probably did her heart good to get back home after nearly seven months away due to her illness. She's had a pretty tough go of it, but has hopefully turned the corner. She did say tell us that she was planning to run for re-election next year.



    Calling him (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 12:39:40 PM EST
    Tweeting him

    Rumors that Paul is a no and Steve King is a no?

    I trust no Republican though. I have no reason to.


    The zombie (none / 0) (#42)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 03:07:02 PM EST
    repeal and replace of Obamacare is likely to pass,  as horrified as I am to say.  McCain's requirement for regular order may be satisfied by the 90 second debate time left on the senate clock. And, he already got his dig in at Trump.

      And, for the rest, this is their last shot at repeal (and replace with anything or nothing) under reconciliation rules (50 votes, plus Pence).  Pence is salivating at the opportunity to do so. It is not everyday that he gets to do such harm to the American people.

    Maybe Murkowski and Collins will hold, but where is that third stake to drive into this zombie's heart?


    You think Trump put us all through that (none / 0) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 03:21:22 PM EST
    That night just to spurn Trump? If it's true, shallow mofo. Deep as a puddle.

    i dont (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 04:30:04 PM EST
    i doubt it passes the senate and even if it did its not clear it passes the house.

    if McCain votes for it after all his BS about "regular order".....

    well, it seems a hard circle to square.


    Sure hope (none / 0) (#56)
    by KeysDan on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 05:19:14 PM EST
    you are right.  And, I sure hope I am wrong.

    Me too (none / 0) (#57)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 06:26:30 PM EST
    Less certain than last

    The billionaires have turned off (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 08:38:23 PM EST
    The cash spigots to the GOP until Obamacare is killed so they can get a tax cut. I think that's what's driving this. My God we have to get the money out of politics. It is going to kill people now.

    When is enough enough?


    I was hopeing (none / 0) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 10:56:09 PM EST
    It was one last going-thru-the-motions, led by McCain's buddy Lindsey so they can say they did all they could and now have to return to "regular order".

    That's the only way McCain's little speech awhile back followed by his melodramatic no vote makes any sense.

    Not that making sense is necessarily expected.


    Yeah, he doesn't care. The consistency train (none / 0) (#69)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 08:15:02 AM EST
    left the station right after the Straight Talk Express.

    He'll vote for this. Someone else the didn't really want to vote for it last time either, but hid behind him, will have to step up to the plate.


    Isn't Rand Paul a no? (none / 0) (#21)
    by CST on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 11:28:38 AM EST
    In which case we just need Collins and Murkowski.

    Breaking: 7.1-magnitude quake in Mexico City. (none / 0) (#49)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 03:38:32 PM EST
    The U.S. Geological Survey speculates that it could actually be a powerful aftershock from the 8.2-magnitude earthquake which struck Oaxaca last week. Ironically, today's event occurred 32 years to the day of the tragic 1985 quake in that city, which killed thousands. Initial reports are of potentially heavy damage and serious casualties. Let's hope that these first reports wind up being overblown.

    Update: 155 dead - and counting. (none / 0) (#63)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 09:19:51 PM EST
    This is looking pretty bad. Reports I'm seeing say that Mexico City has been "devastated."

    ... during the first week of November, and so last week I dutifully went online and booked my round-trip travel on United Airlines, with my return on Nov. 7 going through San Francisco and Honolulu. I depart RDM at 5:50 a.m. (ugh!) and I have a 3.5-hour layover in SFO that morning.

    Much to my surprise, I learned today that the SFO-HNL leg of my return trip will also mark the final commercial passenger flight of the iconic B747 aircraft by a U.S. carrier. (Delta just retired its final B747 from passenger service 12 days ago.) United made that announcement only yesterday, which then led the flight to quickly sell out within hours, and the company is planning a lot of hoopla in both San Francisco and Honolulu to commemorate the occasion.

    Maybe I should've been tipped off since the flight number for the SFO-HNL segment is -- surprise -- "747." Anyway, it should be both interesting and fun to be part of an end of an era in air travel.

    The B747 and DC-10 were once mainstays of U.S. airline fleets, but over the last 15-20 years those two jumbo jets were gradually supplanted by airliners that are much more fuel-efficient and easier to maintain. The current trend in the industry is to go with smaller single-aisle aircraft, which are much quicker to turn around at the gate than a widebody.

    And so, widebody aircraft are mostly being relegated to strictly long-haul intercontinental service.  Ironically, the first time I ever flew on a B747 back in the early 1970s was on the hour-long, 340-mile route between LAX and SFO, on United.

    The European consortium Airbus Industrie is considering the production phase-out of its huge A380 double-deck widebody aircraft next year, as demand -- never robust to begin with -- has since plummeted with the introduction of Boeing's B787. Further, the A380 requires its own special gates and jetways due to its sheer size, and many major airports including Honolulu have simply refused to build or renovate their concourses in order to accommodate the large aircraft.

    Honolulu Int'l Airport itself is about to undergo a total renovation of its facilities, as its overseas terminals were built exclusively for widebody aircraft back in the 1970s, and that particular terminal configuration is now obsolete. A B747, B767 or B777 requires much more gate space than a B737 or A320/321. Renovation will add about 25 more gates.

    As for the B747, Boeing is still producing a few of them in the 800 series, but they are strictly for cargo operations.


    Sounds like a fun but long trip Donald. (none / 0) (#58)
    by fishcamp on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 06:41:58 PM EST
    When you do finally get to Bend, Oregon you could call our mutual friend  Gerry Lopez, Mr. pipeline, the world famous surfer.  He lives in Bend now.  I just read that he is surfing more, down in the Cabo area of Mexico.  I'll send you his number via the coconut telegraph.

    For several years in the '90s, ... (none / 0) (#62)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 09:10:30 PM EST
    ... I was actually good friends with his younger brother. Unfortunately, his brother was one of those who had trouble comprehending the concept of work. I've never heard someone come up with so many creative excuses for why he couldn't work that day. He was the polar opposite of Gerry, who's always been self-driving in his life. His brother preferred to be chauffeured.

    I'm up in Bend twice yearly. It's a really nice place, and the people are very friendly. The only problem travel-wise is that it's an 8 to 10-hour trip from Honolulu, one-way, usually with 3 to 4-hour layover in SFO. And now that I live in Hilo, you can add on another two hours, at least. I depart Hilo at 5:30 p.m. HST, and I'll arrive in Redmond / Bend at 10:15 a.m. the following morning. I can get to Chicago from Hawaii faster than I can to Bend!



    If you have a chance (none / 0) (#65)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Sep 19, 2017 at 09:54:47 PM EST
    you gotta hit Jakes Diner at the truckstop. Best omelets in da woild. Dinner, breakfast, whenever absolutely delicious. And huge. I have eaten the best brakfasts in Pacific Northwest with New Orleans close behind. But Jakes, an experience I will never forget. And the hash browns, oooh yeah.

    Cubs win! 2-1 (none / 0) (#70)
    by ruffian on Wed Sep 20, 2017 at 08:19:43 AM EST
    And Javy Baez, my favorite player, put on a show - 2 for 3 with 1 RBI, a stolen base, and picked off a guy trying to steal.

    Also Cubs starter Mike Montgomery only gave up one hit in 6 innings - a home run.

    Indoor baseball - not for me. Just felt wrong. But I get it that it is the only way to have baseball at all in this climate.

    Thoughts and prayers going out to Javy's and all the other families in PR and the other islands today.