Wednesday Open Thread

Update: Date corrected to show Wednesday, not Friday.

I have motions due today, so no blogging until this evening. Our last open thread is full, so here's a new one, all topics welcome.

Jerry Garcia died 22 years ago. #Be kind to someone to day. (h/t ChuckO in Taylor Swift Thread).


Please remember not to mock other commenters here if their opinion differs from yours. I have not had time to read comments the past week or so, but when I do, I'm going to delete any with name-calling and personal attacks. Feel free to disagree with someone's opinion but don't belittle them or make them fearful of posting here for being attacked. If you do, you will be banned, no matter how long you have been here.

Again, this is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    On July 26, the morning (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:14:26 PM EST
    after former Trump campaign manager, Paul Manafort, testified before the Senate Intel Committee investigating Russia/Trump campaign issues (behind closed doors) and the day he was to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee, FBI agents served a pre-dawn search warrant on Manafort's Alexandria, VA home.  

    Unlike a subpoena, which a grand jury can issue on its own, a warrant requires prosecutors to persuade a judge that probable cause exists to believe that a crime has been committed.

    That day, July 26, was a busy tweet day for Trump: unbeknownst to the military, transgender people banned from serving in the military; attacked Sessions for not replacing then Acting FBI Director, Andrew McCabe, asserting wicked connections to Hillary; and attacked Senators Murkowski and Collins for their votes on ACA.

    And, today, the July 26 FBI raid on Manafort's house hit the news--the day after Trump's "fire and fury" admonition to North Korea. Coincidenza?

    Probably not (none / 0) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:23:18 PM EST
    One of our friends in Tampa (none / 0) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:25:53 PM EST
    Is giving McMaster until December before someone/something snaps, breaks, cannot be repaired. Even with Kelly at the helm the tensions are high.

    Actually, issuance of a search warrant requires (none / 0) (#8)
    by Peter G on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:44:12 PM EST
    probable cause to believe, not that a crime was committed exactly, but that evidence of a crime, or contraband, or instrumentalities of the commission of a crime, or something else that the authorities are entitled to seize (e.g., stolen goods, a kidnap victim, a person for whom an arrest warrant has been issued, etc.), will be found in the place to be searched at the time that the warrant is to be executed. Execution of a warrant also sends the message that the prosecutor (and/or the agents working with the prosecutor's office) do not believe that the person whose place is to be searched can be trusted to comply with a subpoena, and is not really "cooperating" forthrightly with the investigation, no matter what his lawyers may claim.

    It's said (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 05:44:14 PM EST
    Computers and other digital files were probably the prime target

    Even if they were deleted.  Especially if they were deleted that itself being a felony.


    I'm surprised the FBI didn't simultaneously (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 05:24:36 PM EST
    execute a search warrant on each of Manafort's properties.  

    maybe they (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 07:29:16 PM EST
    did and we just don't know about it?

    Yes, and concern (none / 0) (#25)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 06:13:07 PM EST
    for the evidence brought a "no-knock" warrant.  According to reporting, Manafort was "awoken by a group of armed FBI agents knocking on his bedroom door," as they executed the pre-dawn warrant on July 26.  Note: not the front door, but the bedroom door.

    Apparently, as with evidence in drug cases, where knocks may be followed by the sound of toilets flushing, the possible evidence may have been safeguarded by the step of an unannounced search.   Doesn't sound like a lot of trust going around in this investigation.


    you linky is broken (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 07:01:33 PM EST
    Yes, (none / 0) (#36)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 08:58:41 PM EST
    Thanks, Captain.

    FBI be slippin'... (none / 0) (#58)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:32:19 AM EST
    no flash grenades? They didn't murder his dog?  FBI I thought I knew ye! ;)

    Isn't that more a DEA thing? (none / 0) (#83)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 02:38:05 PM EST
    Esp shooting the dog.

    DEA is the main offender... (none / 0) (#84)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 02:47:18 PM EST
    err main federal offender, to be sure...local PD's too. But the FBI has used the flash grenades and shot the family dogs too.

    What do you have to say (none / 0) (#126)
    by Towanda on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 11:07:59 PM EST
    about what did happen?

    That would be a contribtuion to this discussion.


    No Knock Warrants... (none / 0) (#130)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 09:42:20 AM EST
    are an over-prescribed abomination of civil rights. If that wasn't clear, Professor.

    PeterG, with this kind of warrant (none / 0) (#87)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 03:50:45 PM EST
    Do they get access to anything that came into the home via internet connection? It's hard for me to believe Paul Manafort wouldn't have deleted incriminating evidence and I realize that sometimes they can retried items that have been deleted, but does this search warrant get them internet provider cooperation?

    I certainly haven't read the warrant or the (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 04:43:38 PM EST
    affidavit in support of issuing the warrant (both, no doubt, under seal and will be for some time) but typically the warrant will authorize physical seizure of all computers and other electronic devices found at the location, to be further searched electronically, off site, for information relevant to the subject matter of the investigation. All but the most sophisticated efforts at deletion of information will be overcome and supposedly deleted files will be retrieved, as you recognized. And proof of effective erasures and deletions might itself establish an offense.

    And as to the other part of your question -- (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 05:26:07 PM EST
    about Internet service providers, they are subject to "National Security Letters" as authorized by the PATRIOT Act, and often don't even need a warrant to be required to turn over records.

    And a great big ohhhhhhhhhhh! (none / 0) (#121)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:57:04 PM EST
    From me

    Thank you


    Fare you well, fare you well... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:36:25 PM EST
    I love you more than words can tell
    Listen to the river sing sweet songs
    to rock my soul

    The place ain't been the same without ya Jerry...it's just like a Brokedown Palace.  

    Rat Dog PTSD. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 05:25:22 PM EST
    You don't fool me... (5.00 / 3) (#59)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:34:06 AM EST
    oculus and Bob Weir...They Love Each Other

    Looorrd, you can seeee, that it's truuuue


    Hahaha! Swell (none / 0) (#122)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:02:18 PM EST
    It's the people dressed up as wizards and everyone dancing alone with themselves that throws oculus. She asked me why people were dancing alone with themselves and I told her I didn't know why. I just know Deadheads do it a lot.

    Smoked a joint with Jerry (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 12:17:52 AM EST
    ...it was his, and he sparked it for me.

    We were sitting on amplifier cases in Winterland after a sound check, when everyone else had gone out for dinner before the show.  The Sons of Champlin, the band I was the roadie for, were opening for the Dead.  There were only three people in the building, me, Jerry, and the Sons drummer, who also played in one of Jerry's spinoff bands.  What are ya gonna do, sit in opposite corners and smoke by yourselves?

    No, you all sit together, and the guy with the best weed shows it off.

    I worked on lots of Dead shows in the '60s and early '70s, because the Sons and Dead often appeared together.  This Rick Griffin poster for a Dead/Sons show became the cover of a Dead Album, Aoxomoxoa, and is one of the most collectible rock posters.

    Jerry has a walk-on part in my book, the chapter is excerpted here.

    Went on a few mountain bike rides with Bobby Weir, here is one I documented on my now terribly dated website.


    Standing offer... (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:37:05 AM EST
    to all the joints you can smoke next time you're in New York, in exchange for more regaling tales from your life as a roadie during the golden age of rock, Repack.  A lid of the finest for your thoughts! ;)

    Reefer madness round here (none / 0) (#89)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 04:23:08 PM EST
    I don't often agree with your pov, (none / 0) (#81)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 01:02:29 PM EST
    but you sure can write. Nicely done.

    Great link Kdog. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:49:29 PM EST
    From Winterland, no less. Saw many a show at Winterland back in the 70s. I lived in Stockton, CA back then. Winterland was THE place where everyone played. I was introduced to Tommy Bolin at Winterland. He as the opening act for someone else (I don't remember who.) Tommy was so phenomenal that I didn't care who came next.

    Not a rock tome from that era... (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:40:30 AM EST
    that doesn't mention Winterland.  You were blessed Chuck, just maybe not as blessed as our buddy Repack over here.  

    How about a little love for an east coast venue, The Capitol Theater, straight from Captain Trips' mouth...

    See, there's only two theaters, man, they are the only two places that are set up pretty groovy all around for music and for smooth stage changes, good lighting and all that - the Fillmore and the Capitol Theater. And those are the only two in the whole country. The rest of the places we play are sort of anonymous halls and auditoriums and gymnasiums and all those kinds of places. Well, the thing is that we do our best show, in that sense - show sense, here in New York, 'cause here it's the show world.

    - Jerry Garcia

    As a NJ native... (none / 0) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 12:35:47 PM EST
    I'd like to point out that the Capital Theater is in NJ, not NY.

    There are numerous Capitol Theaters (none / 0) (#77)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 12:40:59 PM EST
    on the East Coast. I believe the one Jerry Garcia referred to was in Port Chester. And that would be in the state of New York. There is a Capitol Theater in York, PA as well.

    play in Passaic...

    Correct... (none / 0) (#80)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 12:54:27 PM EST
    I first saw the quote from a sign on the wall at Garcia's, the pub off the lobby of The Capitol Theater in Port Chester.

    Tis a beautifully renovated old-school theater with amazing acoustics.  

    I had heard about the Jersey Cap', didn't know ya had one in PA too.


    I was never a Deadhead per se (none / 0) (#153)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2017 at 10:08:26 AM EST
    but out of nowhere I'd been thinking a lot about Papa Bear Garcia lately. I was quite taken aback and moved to find out it was the anniversary of his passing.

    In another time's forgotten space
    Your eyes looked through your mother's face
    Wildflower seed on sand and stone
    May the four winds blow you safely home

    Roll away, the dew..


    Likewise Glenn Campbell. (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 04:07:17 PM EST
    Here's a song he wrote after being diagnosed with Alzheimers:

    I'm Not Gonna Miss You

    I'm still here, but yet I'm gone
    I don't play guitar or sing my songs
    They never defined who I am
    The man that loves you 'til the end

    RIP Glenn.


    Democrats and money, we should get over it (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 04:03:51 PM EST
    In this era, significant sums of money are needed to compete let alone win. This, let's not be like them crap is costing us dearly.

    Moreover, how is it, after Citizens United, the case in which the Supreme Court held that corporations are people and therefore entitled to donate big sums of money to superpacs privately, that black candidates can win without the support of dark, corporate money?

    The issues discussed in this article don't just apply to rising stars like Kamala Harris, but to any dem candidate.

    Speaking as a Democrat, ... (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 05:19:22 PM EST
    ... I've never been one to advocate for our unilateral fiscal disarmament in the face of a well-provisioned opponent. But as I read this particular Cosmo article, author Kimberley Cooper's primary focal point appears to be the not-so-latent paternalism of the white male-dominated Democratic left, in particular their attitudes toward African-American Democratic women:

    "Kamala Harris doesn't have a Bernie Sanders problem. The so-called 'Sanders Left' has a black-woman problem. In fact, the entire left has a black-woman problem. On May 25, a group of black women wrote an open letter to DNC Chairman Tom Perez requesting that he meet with black women politicians and policy makers. The letter noted that the 115th Congress has '20 Black women -- the largest number in history' and reminded Perez that in 2008 and 2012, black women were the party's most loyal voting bloc. The DNC refused to even give black women an official response to the letter. I say this, because I want to be clear that the DNC is no friend to black women. However, if 2016 is any indicator, the vast majority of black women rejected the Sanders solution as a model for the kind of left politics that meets their needs.

    "Sanders's voters think that black women who care about establishment politics lack vision. They don't get the psychology of black women's party loyalty. Black feminist theorists beginning with Professor Stanlie James have long talked about what they call the 'visionary pragmatism' of black women. They point to the fact that black women typically believe in a brighter future but that they also believe in keeping the lights on and in maintaining a solid foundation upon which to build the future they want to see. You can have a left political vision and a pragmatic approach in the voting booth. Unfortunately demagogues on the left insist that this is a lack of vision.

    "The DNC is engaging in the kind of moral dishonesty that is rooted in a devaluing of black women's clear and consistent contributions to the stability and health of the party, but then so is this alleged 'Sanders Left.' If everybody's lying, then it becomes a case of the devil you know (the DNC) versus the devil you don't (far-left Sanders adherents). And though I'm loathe to relitigate 2016, postmortems can be useful, particularly in untangling the political dishonesty of this moment.

    "The biggest lie that members of the so-called 'Sanders Left' told during the 2016 elections is that there was no appreciable difference between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump. After six months of having Donald J. Trump lead the country, it's quite clear that the left should have listened to 94 percent of black women voters. We know a disaster when we see one."


    "Ryan Cooper tries and fails to preempt arguments about his response to Kamala Harris, saying that critics might argue that, 'The left just doesn't like minority or female candidates because they are racist and sexist.' He characterizes these arguments as trying to 'win dirty.' White men on both the right and the left always like to remind us, when they are disagreeing with black candidates, that everything is not about racism. They can disagree with people's policy positions on the merits. That is, of course, true.

    "But a dirty win is actually one predicated on blaming black women and black politicians more generally for failing to save America from itself once again, and then claiming that race and gender have nothing to do with the targets of your ire. Sanders Democrats are mad that black women didn't think a critique of capitalism absolved the radical left of needing to deal forthrightly with racism and sexism."

    (Emphasis is mine.)

    It's a topic that's certainly worthy of further discussion.


    Correction: The author's name is ... (none / 0) (#96)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 05:24:37 PM EST
    ... is Brittney Cooper and not Kimberley. My bad.

    You can (none / 0) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 06:53:26 PM EST
    extend that attitude even broader to women in general. The resistance has pretty much been led by women of all races.

    Maybe something will be learned from all this but so far I'm not seeing it. The self righteous arrogance has been on full display in a lot of places. This also was the first group to scream that Putin's involvement in the election was a "distraction".


    Yeaah, it is (none / 0) (#102)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 06:57:34 PM EST
    "....worthy of further discussion."

    She's, obviously, quite intelligent, and a thinker.

    The few articles I've read by her tended to raise more questions about her than providing affirmative insights. But, that's just me.

    Like with so many other social authors I don't have a good sense of the message she hopes to share.

    Would love to have an hour, or, two, ala Charlie Rose, to get to know her better.


    IMO (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 07:39:27 PM EST
    the screechy give it to me now whiners need to just quit.

    200 million registered voters... (none / 0) (#62)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:47:41 AM EST
    Seems to me a significant sum of money can be had by appealing to them to send 5 bucks a piece...a campaign is funded and no favors (real or perceived) owed.  And if you cracked the unregistered voter market, cha-ching!

    They can (none / 0) (#86)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 02:59:48 PM EST
    send it now and don't. Nothing is stopping them.

    Washington Post | August 10, 2017
    Analysis: In a new poll, half of Republicans say they would support postponing the 2020 election if Trump proposed it - "Critics of President Trump have repeatedly warned of his potential to undermine American democracy. Among the concerns are his repeated assertions that he would have won the popular vote had 3 to 5 million 'illegals' not voted in the 2016 election, a claim echoed by the head of a White House advisory committee on voter fraud. Claims of large-scale voter fraud are not true, but that has not stopped a substantial number of Republicans from believing them. But how far would Republicans be willing to follow the president to stop what they perceive as rampant fraud? Our recent survey suggests that the answer is quite far: About half of Republicans say they would support postponing the 2020 presidential election until the country can fix this problem."

    This is a canary in a coal mine. We are truly in uncharted territory.

    That same poll shows over 70% believe (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 11:28:00 AM EST
    voter fraud happens somewhat or very often.

    Here's the thing: Trump keeps pushing the voter fraud thing because he's desperate to somehow prove that he won the popular vote.  I am less inclined to believe that Trump's ultimate goal is postponing the next presidential election than I am to believe the only thing he cares about is proving that he won the popular vote - or at least successfully brainwashing people into believing he did.

    If there's one thing we should know about Trump, it's that everything he says and everything he does is based on what is best for him - it's ALL about Trump, always.  His vision is so narrow that he doesn't see how damaging it is to the system for him to continue to push this highly false alternative fact.  But even if he did see it, he wouldn't care unless it could harm him somehow, otherwise, he would just leverage it to his own benefit.

    The real problem is the millions of voters who believe him, who believe Trump when he says the Russia investigation is just an effort to cheat those who voted for him out of getting what they voted for.

    If he told them he had built his precious wall, they would believe him.  I truly believe he could tell them anything and they'd believe it.

    I don't know if that's stupidity or foolishness, but either way, it's not Making America Great Again, for sure.


    I don't know Don... (2.00 / 1) (#65)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:07:52 AM EST
    just as it's often hard to tell if hardcore Trump supporters online are serious or just trolling to get a rise out of people, maybe pollsters are just getting trolled too.

    Canary in the coal mine or just people f8cking with those coastal elitist swamp-worker pollsters...hard to say.  


    If you think that it's hard to say, ... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:31:58 AM EST
    ... then you've really not been paying much if any attention. While Trump's support amongst Republicans has been ever so slightly softening somewhat, 83% still either "strongly approve" or "approve" of his performance thus far in office. The Washington Post's own findings are fully reflective of those recent poll numbers, and are a further strong indication of the GOP base's increasingly perilous disconnection from reality.

    Again, are they disconnected from reality... (none / 0) (#67)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:40:02 AM EST
    or just trying to disconnect you from your reality?  Hard to say.

    If there is death to American democracy eminent, I'd look to Citizens United and not some dumb polls.  

    If the 2016 presidential election has taught us anything, it is that there is a significant number of voters in this country who's only goal is getting a rise out of people who make them feel inferior and/or stupid, even if they may in fact be stupid.


    Seriously, guy, you're giving right-wing ignoramuses far more credit for complex thought than they likely deserve, and are ascribing to them motives which likely don't exist. These people reject fact and truth because they really and truly refuse to believe in them, and not because they're merely seeking ways to pi$$ off and frustrate liberal elites. Further, their type have been around for quite a while, and are not a recent phenomenon.

    Only now, thanks to the marvels of corporate-funded right-wing media, these anti-intellectual reactionaries have created their own parallel universe which crosses both state lines and time zones, and addresses their overweening desire to conform with others likeminded. Their desire for an exclusionary community is so strong that right-wing values and opinions will all too often pre-empt fact, truth, logic and reason. And such dubious values and opinions will continue to prevail, but only so long as there is no clear downside to wallowing in such pervasive ignorance.

    As the late Maya Angelou once admonished us, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." (Emphasis is mine.)



    Best line of the day (none / 0) (#69)
    by CoralGables on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:52:24 AM EST
    "getting a rise out of people who make them feel inferior and/or stupid, even if they may in fact be stupid."

    In fact (none / 0) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 09:06:51 PM EST
    It's really not a question if they are stupid

    Slightly more than half of Republicans say they would support postponing the 2020 presidential election if President Trump proposed it to make sure only eligible American citizens can vote, according to a new survey.

    According to a poll conducted by two academic authors and published by The Washington Post, 52 percent of Republicans said they would back a postponement of the next election if Trump called for it.

    Donald why do you think (none / 0) (#73)
    by ragebot on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 11:10:16 AM EST
    Trump supporters are disconnected from reality.  He appointed a SC justice, is on track to appoint more federal judges than any other prez, and has eliminated huge numbers of fed rules (especially EPA related stuff as well as bank stuff).  All this would make Trump supporters happy and willing to continue to support him.

    When you fervently believe a ... (5.00 / 5) (#90)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 04:27:30 PM EST
    ragebot: "Donald why do you think Trump supporters are disconnected from reality."

    ... demonstrable falsehood such as "widespread voter fraud" and further, you adamantly disregard any and all facts to the contrary which would otherwise dispel reasonable people of the nonsensical notion that this country is somehow awash in illegal Democratic voters, then I'd say that at an absolute minimum, you're very much disconnected from reality.

    Look, everyone is entitled to their own respective opinions. But it takes a truly special kind of fool to:

    • Actually ignore and / or dispute the very existence of evidence;
    • Embrace instead his own set of "facts" manufactured out of whole cloth, and then
    • Delude himself into believing his own bull$chitt.

    Because eventually, not only will reality intrude harshly upon the blissful dimwits who reside in their own faerie tale-inflated bubbles, it might then bite them hard in the a$$ just for spite. Why deliberately court such grief upon yourself?

    Well said. (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Towanda on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 11:12:22 PM EST
    And not "hard to say," after all.

    Them ain't just jokes, it's a dead canary (none / 0) (#82)
    by vicndabx on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 02:07:12 PM EST

    From 2008 to 2016, GOP officials expanded early voting stations in Republican dominated Hamilton County, IndyStar's analysis found, and decreased them in the state's biggest Democratic hotbed, Marion County.
    That made voting more convenient in GOP areas for people with transportation issues or busy schedules. And the results were immediate.

    You indy's need to wake up bruh.


    Wake up to what? (none / 0) (#85)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 02:49:41 PM EST
    That Republicans have and will do everything in their power to keep those that won't vote for them from voting?  Been woke a long time on that Bro.

    Trump takes questions from press (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 04:17:29 PM EST
    For the first time since February, loses mind again for the documentarians.

    He took over a MESS! Democrats colluded ON Ukraine?

    He's doing the military a great favor with the Transgender ban. The military is working on it.

    Paul Manafort is a very decent man. The FBI raid...very tough stuff. Trump was surprised.

    General Kelly is CofS because of what he did at the border (snort)

    Kim has said things that are horrific :) Come get Guam you threatener!

    Global warming is not the biggest threat to the world like that Obama said. It's nukes! So Trump is making our nuke arsenal the biggest the finest the better the stronger in the world. Experts say there was no way our nuclear arsenal has been modernized in the past 6 months...but...DNC server/ where's the FBI?

    But he's going to get the Democrats on board for the infrastructure bill after trying to like the Mooch, sick the FBI on them for nothing :)

    Russia spent a lot of money fighting Trump.

    We are an oil gas exporter now because Trump has been our President for the last 6 mos.

    Did people not file the right papers? Nobody in Washington files the right papers. There's a lot of wrong papers filed in DC.

    People are leaving the House and Senate closed door committee meetings saying they haven't found any collusion, none?

    Mitch McConnell is failing. Low energy Mitch?

    It was a great moment when that one guy left the Democratic party and became a Republican.

    He's having f2f with Tim Cook of Apple about moving those plants to the US? Whew....if that one is bull$hit that's some top shelf I am a shameless Wh@re bull$hit.

    The leaks, he has great respect for the intelligence community but you know, Iraq and WMDs. He likes people who didn't get captured :)

    The Force is strong in this one :)

    Putin appears to be (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by KeysDan on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 04:51:42 PM EST
    working with the US Budget Office:

    In response to Putin's reaction to the new American sanctions that cut/kick out of Russia 750  US diplomatic staff, our strong leader, President/InnKeeper Trump,  said:

    "I want to thank him (Putin) because we're trying to cut down our payroll and as far as I'm concerned, I am very thankful that he let go of a large number of people because now we have a smaller payroll.  There's no real reason for them to go back.  I greatly appreciate the fact that we've been able to cut payroll in the US.  We're going to save a lot of money."

    Of course, Putin is new to this line of work, so he may not know that other than for the locals, the rest will return to D.C. or be reassigned elsewhere.  Trump needs to coach him better.


    What? Putin made them transfer out (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 05:23:17 PM EST
    of the embassy in Moscow and Tr*mp thereupon fired these diplomats (or spies) or laid them off? That's a new one on me. (I.e., more b/s made up on the spot.)

    Well Trump, you idiot (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:25:46 PM EST
    I'm sure there was a great deal of intelligence gathering going on with those 750 people.



    Fired Google engineer files labor complaint (none / 0) (#1)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 02:36:05 PM EST
    James Damore, whose memo over the weekend caused an uproar online, said in an email that he was terminated late Monday for "perpetuating gender stereotypes." He said he considers his firing illegal because he had already filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board.

    The board declined to comment.

    Lots of complaints and lawsuits in Silicon Valley over various gender issues right now.  I haven't read Damore's entire memo but I know he said this..

    But it also asserts that women "prefer jobs in social and artistic areas," while more men "may like coding because it requires systemizing."

    Years ago in my college days there weren't any female engineering students.  I know that has changed but every female engineer/programmer I know was born outside of the U.S.  My take is there is some truth to Damore's comments but it has a lot to do with our society....what we encourage women to do either directly or indirectly.  

    I don't know if Damore's complaint will go anywhere but I do know he put his employment in jeopardy by saying something politically incorrect.  Perhaps he wanted the attention so he could change careers and write a book or something?

    What Damore said was not (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:31:50 PM EST
    "politically incorrect." What he said was just plain dumb. Not everything you disagree with politically incorrect. Sometimes dumb is just dumb.

    If keeping his job was his top priority (none / 0) (#9)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:48:00 PM EST
    then his comments were dumb.  If he's trying to prove a point or gain publicity he might be smarter than you think.  

    That's one possibility (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 12:24:15 AM EST
    If he's trying to prove a point or gain publicity he might be smarter than you think.  

    For what possible purpose?

    Occam's Razor suggests that it is exactly what it looks like.  The simplest explanation for something that looks like monstrous stupidity, is... monstrous stupidity.


    Or perhaps he's just an example of (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 04:15:36 PM EST
    this quote:

    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

    This isn't a case of being politically incorrect, it's a case of perpetuating gender stereotypes, of not allowing for the possibility that women only seem to fit those gender stereotypes because certain fields/disciplines and workplace cultures have been resistant to fostering an environment that accepts that women are every bit as capable and talented as men.  

    I'm willing to believe that like a lot of companies, Google's commitment to workplace diversity may be more superficial than they want people to believe; by speaking his mind, Damore may have committed the unforgivable sin of exposing the superficiality.  I mean, just because a company has more women, more people of color, more LGBTQ employees, doesn't mean there is company-wide acceptance of employees who represent diversity.

    Also, it's important to keep in mind that any company looking to do work for the government - or even some private-sector companies- often has to demonstrate its diversity when bidding on work.

    I don't pretend to know why he did it, I just hope he has a Plan B when it turns out the courts aren't going to cooperate in his efforts to have his antediluvian opinions justified.  



    Out of curiosity why are you willing to believe (none / 0) (#18)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 04:45:09 PM EST
    Google's commitment to workplace diversity may be more superficial than they want people to believe

    You are willing to believe Google's leadership isn't actually committed because some of their employees may not be?

    Seems like they would be two different things where blanket statements may not apply.

    Maybe I misunderstood your comment.


    No, I'm saying that just populating (5.00 / 4) (#19)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 05:08:55 PM EST
    the workforce with people who diversify it doesn't mean the company's commitment goes much beyond how it looks from the outside.  Maybe it does, but if it is just superficial, it would be very important for the company to keep the illusion going, to have those on the outside believe how progressive they are.

    I work in a firm that made a great push to add women and people of color to its essentially white workforce, but it never felt - to me, anyway - like much more than lip service.  Not very far under that surface was ongoing resentment and reluctance to let go of old ways of thinking.

    The evolution isn't complete, but it's ongoing.

    But that's the only way real change happens, by getting it started and going through the growing pains and evolution of people's thinking.

    Rather than firing this guy, perhaps Google would have been better off to be honest and say that there was still much work to do and they were committed to doing it, and Damore had opened the door to creating opportunities to figure out what else they could do going forward.

    Not sure if that helps clarify my comment, but I'm not sure I can do a better job of explaining, sorry.  Have a lot on my mind and may not be communicating as clearly as I'd like to be.


    Reading your comment about a company trying (none / 0) (#123)
    by vml68 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:09:44 PM EST
    to maintain the illusion of diversity, reminded me of an incident involving my husband.

    He works in a field that is predominantly white and male. There was a conference in NYC for up and coming African-americans under 40 (future industry leaders) and his company asked him to attend it. He is not african-american but he was the only non-white person they had that met the other criteria!

    He said attending that conference was one of the most uncomfortable situations he had ever been in.  No one spoke to him and he bailed on the second day.


    here is the context (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by linea on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 07:39:39 PM EST
    Out of curiosity why are you willing to believe
    by vicndabx
    You are willing to believe Google's leadership isn't actually committed because some of their employees may not be?

    four months ago:

    Google accused of 'extreme' gender pay discrimination by US labor department

    Google has discriminated against its female employees, according to the US Department of Labor (DoL), which said it had evidence of "systemic compensation disparities"....

    Reached for comment Friday afternoon, Janet Herold, regional solicitor for the DoL, said: "The investigation is not complete, but at this point the department has received compelling evidence of very significant discrimination against women in the most common positions at Google headquarters."

    Herold added: "The government's analysis at this point indicates that discrimination against women in Google is quite extreme, even in this industry."

    YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki's Response (5.00 / 4) (#37)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 09:08:42 PM EST
     to the Controversial Google Anti-Diversity Memo:

    Yesterday, after reading the news, my daughter asked me a question. "Mom, is it true that there are biological reasons why there are fewer women in tech and leadership?"

    That question, whether it's been asked outright, whispered quietly, or simply lingered in the back of someone's mind, has weighed heavily on me throughout my career in technology. Though I've been lucky to work at a company where I've received a lot of support--from leaders like Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Eric Schmidt, and Jonathan Rosenberg to mentors like Bill Campbell--my experience in the tech industry has shown me just how pervasive that question is.

    Time and again, I've faced the slights that come with that question. I've had my abilities and commitment to my job questioned. I've been left out of key industry events and social gatherings. I've had meetings with external leaders where they primarily addressed the more junior male colleagues. I've had my comments frequently interrupted and my ideas ignored until they were rephrased by men. No matter how often this all happened, it still hurt.

    So when I saw the memo that circulated last week, I once again felt that pain, and empathized with the pain it must have caused others. I thought about the women at Google who are now facing a very public discussion about their abilities, sparked by one of their own co-workers. I thought about the women throughout the tech field who are already dealing with the implicit biases that haunt our industry (which I've written about before), now confronting them explicitly. I thought about how the gender gap persists in tech despite declining in other STEM fields, how hard we've been working as an industry to reverse that trend, and how this was yet another discouraging signal to young women who aspire to study computer science. And as my child asked me the question I'd long sought to overcome in my own life, I thought about how tragic it was that this unfounded bias was now being exposed to a new generation.

    Some of those responding to the memo are trying to defend its authorship as an issue of free speech. As a company that has long supported free expression, Google obviously stands by the right that employees have to voice, publish or tweet their opinions. But while people may have a right to express their beliefs in public, that does not mean companies cannot take action when women are subjected to comments that perpetuate negative stereotypes about them based on their gender. Every day, companies take action against employees who make unlawful statements about co-workers, or create hostile work environments.

    For instance, what if we replaced the word "women" in the memo with another group? What if the memo said that biological differences amongst Black, Hispanic, or LGBTQ employees explained their underrepresentation in tech and leadership roles? Would some people still be discussing the merit of the memo's arguments or would there be a universal call for swift action against its author? I don't ask this to compare one group to another, but rather to point out that the language of discrimination can take many different forms and none are acceptable or productive.

    I thought about all of this, looked at my daughter and answered simply.

    "No, it's not true."

    That is truly (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 09:27:45 PM EST
    an awesome reply. Misogyny is so insidious in our culture that a lot of people don't recognize it. I showed a friend of mine an article in the NYT where they were talking about Kristen Gillibrand and they were using all the misogyny narratives about her and I showed the article to a friend of mine and she didn't see it. Ugh, I'm glad the guy was fired but it's just one step in changing the way our culture treat women.  

    perfect. I Couldn't think of anything (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:21:59 PM EST
    even close to that artuclate to say about it.

    There are many reasons why there aren't more women in STEM, but natural ability is not one of them.


    very well written!! (none / 0) (#51)
    by linea on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 01:06:32 AM EST
    and this is everywhere:
    I've had my comments frequently interrupted and my ideas ignored until they were rephrased by men. No matter how often this all happened, it still hurt.

    I HAVE NO IDEA whether male hydrologists gather in sports bars and complain "b!tches be too dumb to understand drainage-basin management. been that way since the paleolithic." but i just cant imagine the other STEM fields are as bad as tech/software with the prevalent (ersatz) "scientific-sexism" that is so often espoused in this industry.


    Being interrupted or talked over or (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 07:59:20 AM EST
    having your ideas ignored until they come out of the mouths of men is not something unique to industries typically dominated by men - that's something that happens everywhere men and women work together.

    Does it happen in all-male or all-female groups, where the more dominant personalities identify those they deem weaker, and attempt to assert their dominance?  I don't know, but I would expect it does.

    Also, this guy would probably still have a job if this hadn't gone public - Google would have handled it internally and we wouldn't even be having this debate.


    Just like to point out that, as a man, (none / 0) (#78)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 12:44:08 PM EST
    I've had my (stunningly intelligent, just ask me)ideas interrupted or talked over or
    ignored many, many, times. And not only by other men.

    I also worked for years with a women whom I quickly learned to side with in a meeting, as her ideas were almost universally agreed upon. I've never seen anyone communicate as well as she could in a business meeting environment.


    I could name many many (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:11:56 PM EST
    female US born software engineers I personally know of without even trying. I've worked with them. I am one. tomsaubthere is something inherent to women that make them not like systems design and logic is sexist nonsense.

    Your own experience belies the premise (none / 0) (#6)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:36:23 PM EST
    If Google wants to promote a diverse environment as a private company, seems it's within their purview to fire someone that works to undermine it via comments that could be perceived as harassment.
    I don't know if Damore's complaint will go anywhere but I do know he put his employment in jeopardy by saying something politically incorrect.  Perhaps he wanted the attention so he could change careers and write a book or something?

    Perhaps. Or maybe he's just a dumba$$ that should've kept his mouth shut so he could keep his job. An engineer of all people should know, engage brain before you speak.


    Doesn't sound Google wants true (none / 0) (#11)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:52:26 PM EST
    diversity.  Sounds like they want politically correct diversity.  

    Also, what is (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 04:42:54 PM EST
    "true diversity"?

    A wide variety (5.00 / 11) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 05:42:19 PM EST
    Of white men

    Alas, that's the only kind you can get today (none / 0) (#14)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 04:06:41 PM EST
    because too many are scared to simply compete for fear of taking a loss, real or perceived.

    Well, you may be right in your broad point (none / 0) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 03:57:57 PM EST
    but there are plenty of US born female engineers.

    I'll let someone else find the actual statistics, but, if we want anecdotes, my mother was an engineer with Bell Labs. She was born in 1933.

    My engineering university (Clarkson) ratio was 7/1, men/women, when I attended (mid-'80s).


    Speaking of anecdotes (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by CST on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 05:18:21 PM EST
    Not long ago I took a course in preparation for my P.E. (I passed!) I was one of two women in the course of about 16 people.  One of the professors made a joke one day about how the class had divided itself down the middle with a gap in between, and noted that his undergrads sometimes do that by gender - men on one side, women on the other.  At the time, the other woman in the class wasn't present, so I made a joke that whatever side I'm on is the women's side of the class (cue nervous chuckle by other students).

    The professor then mentioned that his undergrad class was roughly 50/50 and how he's encouraged that the ratio seems to be changing.  I didn't say this in that class, but all I could think of at that moment was - my undergrad class was roughly 50/50 as well.  10 years later, not so much.


    Congrats on your PE! (none / 0) (#144)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 01:23:43 PM EST
    Just finished reading Damore's 10 page memo (none / 0) (#24)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 05:50:00 PM EST
    I didn't see anything that should have been offensive.  However, people complained so Google thought the best thing to do was can him.  

    I tend to agree with this Damore quote...

    Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. Discrimination to reach equal representation is unfair, divisive, and bad for business.

    Of course, he's not the one who decides what's bad for business.


    Anecdotal - mine (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Lora on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:20:50 PM EST
    Some thoughts on women and STEM based on my experience:

    I have been blessed with some talent in logic and math/science aptitude, and had this talent at a very early age.  I was also blessed with a family that took this for granted.  Therefore, I could never understand why it was assumed for so much of my life, that women in general just weren't cut out for these studies. I called (and still call) BS on the huge variety of reasons given why women just aren't as good at these subjects, none of which seemed to apply to me.

    There was one glaring exception that blindsided me.

    I hit a wall in college, in calculus. Contrary to my earlier confidence, I swiftly decided my brain just wasn't wired for calculus.  Where did that come from? I can only think I absorbed the cultural view at the time about women and STEM. Fortunately, a good friend gently forced a (female) tutor on me, and I "got" calculus and passed it, going on to earn a double major in biology and chemistry.

    I now work in a college and I see very few women attempt any of the STEM majors here. When I work with women who are struggling to learn math, I find many of them seem to have absorbed the same destructive message that nearly derailed me so many years ago.  They prove to me that they can learn the material, yet they don't believe it of themselves.  They think they are just not cut out for it.  It seems to be a form of learned helplessness.  They have received so many subtle and overt messages that they can't do it, that even when they can and are perfectly capable of it, they refuse to see it.

    It is very hard for me to help them see that they can do it.  Sadly, I have seen too many career paths derailed because of lack of confidence in themselves, due, I believe, to years of these pervasive, negative, demeaning, destructive messages.

    I see similar effects in some African American students as well.

    It starts young, very young.


    of learned helplessness. My older son got a 620 on his math SAT yet feels that he's not good at math. I only got a 600, yet earned an engineering degree. Not that I didn't have any struggles with calc, etc., in school...

    it's gibberish (4.33 / 3) (#27)
    by linea on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 06:37:58 PM EST
    it reads like the typically tedious 4-chan screed to me.

    pay me $100 and give me a weekend. i can write 10-pages of nonsense too. i'll give you this one for free:

    Women dominate the medical field. In Finland, women make up the majority of medical doctors. In the United States, women make up 49.8 percent of medical students as of 2016. When combined with the historically high number of women in the nursing specialties requiring a bachelor or masters degree, this central thesis is confirmed: men have a greater difficulty grasping biological and medical concepts, they tend to be fightened of blood, and squimish at the sight of needles.

    Hmmmm. It is my understanding (none / 0) (#28)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 06:55:05 PM EST
    that the reason there are currently more female than male medical students is because many potential male applicants calculate they can make more money in other fields.  Too expensive compared to future earnings projection.

    Hmmmm... (none / 0) (#30)
    by linea on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 07:20:54 PM EST
    i knew, as i was authoring that post, that it would be misunderstood. but i posted it anyway. i'm apparently really bad at humor.

    or MAYBE the reason there are so many women in u.s. medical schools is because of lax immigration! finnish women are coming here and stealing your doctor jobs!


    Good job. You fooled me. (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 07:36:50 PM EST
    But not Peter g.

    O.C. You know (none / 0) (#97)
    by NYShooter on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 05:25:45 PM EST
    my affinity for you is unbounded, but, please, for all that's good & decent in the universe, a moment's notice just prior to the stiletto's insertion, would be appreciated. (I still can't catch my breath)

    (p.s....oh, and next time leave Peter out of it; the heading alone was perfection)


    Baa waa waa (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 07:37:33 PM EST
    I frankly would be glad for some Finnish women doctors to come and steal the jobs of some these doctors around here.

    - why it's 4-chan gibberish - (none / 0) (#132)
    by linea on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 09:56:04 AM EST
    i now realize that some people are mistaking 'systemizing' with a coding skill. it has noting to do with coding or computer programing. it is the current 'scientific-sexism' on 4-chan.

    see (#110)


    i want (none / 0) (#42)
    by linea on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 10:17:36 PM EST
    to be fair to mr mcbain.

    perhaps i can appeal to your sense of logical analysis.

    his thesis fails at the start. the writer is making universal claims on the "distributions of traits between men and women" and is presenting these claims as both scientific and anthropologically true. yet his sample size of males is restricted to a selected 1% of the male population. even given that selected population, we are provided no evidence that those males "like coding because it requires systemizing." realistically, most of the programmers in my office would quit coding if ''medieval combat" cosplay paid a consistant $150k annually. his manifesto is the equivalent of me taking a "millennial males and peter pan syndrome" pop-psychology article and re-writing it as a ersatz scientific paper.


    You are right linea. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:27:46 AM EST
    I would quit writing code tomorrow (today?) if I could make a living playing blackjack. I only like what I do now because it pays a handsome salary. I find blackjack more enjoyable and challenging.

    The question is should he be fired for it? (none / 0) (#44)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 10:35:25 PM EST

    that wasnt my question (none / 0) (#45)
    by linea on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 11:00:13 PM EST
    and it should be noted that he distributed his manifesto within the company.

    some countries protect the political speech of employees. i support that. but this isnt that.


    I still haven't heard you or anyone else (none / 0) (#70)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:52:47 AM EST
    point out what is specifically wrong with the memo.  I get the feeling most of the critics haven't actually read it.  

    As far as Google's decision to fire Damore... I think he put Google in an impossible situation.  They already exist in an extremely politically correct part of the country and they've recently been hit with several complaints of sexual discrimination.

    I think they knew the job termination would be controversial but after weighing the options (company morale, legal issues), felt letting him go was best for business.  I don't know enough about corporate law to have an opinion  of his labor complaint or if a potential lawsuit will go anywhere.  


    i can do that (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by linea on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 06:04:01 PM EST
    I still haven't heard you or anyone else (#70)

    by McBain

    point out what is specifically wrong with the memo.

    it is a sexist rant, presented as pseudo-science, which he circulated in the office as a memo.

    he is saying:

    • coding requires the trait of 'systemizing.'

    • an inherent biological trait of males is 'systemizing."

    • women are incapable of 'systemizing' due to an innate trait of femaleness that predisposes women to 'empathizing' which is the obverse of 'systemizing.'

    • in those cases where a woman overcomes her inherent limitations and becomes a software engineer, she will invariably, "work on front-end, which deals with people and aesthetics" because real coding requires the innate biological trait of 'systemizing' which is what males have.

    You haven't really explained why his opinion is (none / 0) (#104)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:06:32 PM EST
    incorrect and I don't believe he said "women are incapable of systemizing".  I think you exaggerated his words which are basically.... on average, men are better at systemizing than women are. I don't know if he's right or wrong. My experience with coding is very limited.  

    In my opinion, the most controversial, possibly sexist thing he wrote was....

    Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance). This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs.

    Statements like that are why I question Damore's motives. He's basically saying... on average, women aren't cut out for big money jobs because they can't handle their emotions.  


    The dude's statement is internally inconsistent (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:19:16 PM EST
    as between "on average" claims and "genetic" claims (which would be universal, not averages). Either view is plainly illogical and thus a mask for prejudice.  If the claim is that women "on average" are this or that, then the claim is irrelevant to how you would or should treat any individual woman and to what you can expect from her. There is no reason not to let each individual try her best, and let the chips fall where they may, presupposing nothing about that individual. If the claim is "genetic" characteristics, it's just stupid, since if true it would preclude the possibility of great female engineers or computer scientists, which experience demonstrates to be false.  So either way, it sounds to me like a biased attitude masquerading as science. Or, as Linea aptly put it, "gibberish," which means the same thing.

    Doesn't sound like you read the memo Peter (none / 0) (#120)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:41:05 PM EST
    There is no reason not to let each individual try her best, and let the chips fall where they may, presupposing nothing about that individual.

    I don't think he's saying that.  I think he's saying Google shouldn't try hire/promote women and minorities just because certain jobs tend to have higher percentages of certain genders/races.
    From his memo...

    I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more. However, to achieve a more equal gender and race representation, Google has created several discriminatory practices:

    • Programs, mentoring, and classes only for people with a certain gender or race [5]
    • A high priority queue and special treatment for "diversity" candidates
    • Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for "diversity" candidates by decreasing the false negative rate
    • Reconsidering any set of people if it's not "diverse" enough, but not showing that same scrutiny in the reverse direction (clear confirmation bias)
    • Setting org level OKRs for increased representation which can incentivize illegal discrimination [6]

    This might be his best comment...

    Google's left bias has created a politically correct monoculture that maintains its hold by shaming dissenters into silence.

    In a perfect world lacking any context (5.00 / 2) (#125)
    by vicndabx on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:38:44 PM EST
    this reverse racism claim masquerading as treat me fairly or let nature take its course or whatever might make sense.

    The guy went to Harvard works at Google. He should shut up and let others who've not been as lucky in life get some.  

    All he should have done is made a suggestion to offer programs such as the above to additional socioeconomic backgrounds, problem solved.  No need to attempt to "explain" whole groups.

    What's ironic is this guy is attempting to leverage the same identity politics he decries in his piece to ask for a safe space for the conservative viewpoint at Google.

    Whether Google's employees can work with those with conservative views has absolutely nothing to do with Google and its parent company wanting to provide a fair shot for women and minorities.


    This is the real problem for him, and for (5.00 / 7) (#129)
    by Anne on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 08:50:09 AM EST
    you, isn't it?  The belief that it's leftist to actually do things that aid in bringing about a more diverse workplace, rather than just state the goal of diversity and wish/hope that it all just somehow happens organically, on its own, because management assigns a mission statement to it.

    I am - as many of us are - quite capable of understanding what Damore is saying or trying to say, to hear the dog whistles in his - and your - arguments, and I don't expect that there's going to come a moment when someone's going to have the dim lightbulb moment you want them to.  I'm not going to come around to believing that the problem is that if women and people of color were really qualified enough, we wouldn't need to do anything to help increase their numbers - their talent and intelligence and ability would provide them all the entree into the workplace that they need.  So, I'm not going to buy the theory that the existing situation of being represented in such low numbers proves they aren't really qualified.

    I can tell you that one thing I didn't miss when I was on hiatus from TL are the kinds of poisonous arguments masquerading as sincere efforts to just understand an issue, when in fact, they are cowardly attempts to avoid being honest about prejudices and biases that this community has little tolerance for or acceptance of.


    A lot of assumuptions there Anne (2.00 / 2) (#133)
    by McBain on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 10:25:55 AM EST
    You don't get to only read/hear things you want to in life.  Sometimes people have opinions you won't like.  It's how people deal with those other opinions that say a lot about their character.

    I don't know what Google's company policy about employees expressing their opinions is. Right now it looks like an overreaction to me.  I don't know if men are genetically superior for coding or not but I do think it's an interesting conversation, especially in this country.    


    As if... (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 11:04:00 AM EST
    Women didn't know we were going to hear baloney "opinions" about us in general, as a group, from some men. As if.....we hadn't figured that out yet.

    As if....we wouldn't by now know same men would be shocked by a logical well spoken fully reasoned response from one of us.

    As if.....we didn't already know that at that point you'd pull a victim card from your threadbare sleeve ;)


    "Assumptions"? (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by Yman on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 11:06:28 AM EST
    You mean like these?

    I get the feeling most of the critics haven't actually read it.

    Doesn't sound like you read the memo Peter.

    Yesssss! (5.00 / 4) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 11:08:48 AM EST
    After all, "I am not a scientist," (5.00 / 3) (#138)
    by Peter G on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 11:43:21 AM EST
    am I right? So it must be an "interesting" and open question whether women are genetically inferior to men with respect to aptitude for science. You might be eligible to be the ex-President of Harvard. That would explain, I suppose, why the outstanding women computer scientists and engineers who overcome those inherent weaknesses wind up being paid less.

    Oh, gosh, thanks for mansplaining that (5.00 / 5) (#142)
    by Anne on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 12:56:32 PM EST
    to me, McBain...

    I have no desire to live in a world where I never hear anything I don't like or agree with, but I can assure you that if I did only want to read and hear what I liked, I could do that - it's not that hard.  Examples of it are all around us.

    But the fact that I do challenge my own assumptions and keep my mind open to the world of differences out there doesn't obligate me not to automatically accept those opinions and consign my own to the trash heap, nor does it prevent me from expressing my own opinions, from calling BS when I see it, and challenging others.

    Damore ran into an opinion and a response I guess he wasn't expecting: that his employer didn't agree with his point of view, and wasn't of a mind to give him a mulligan because he was possessed of white skin, a Harvard degree and male genitalia.

    Oh, well.  


    Or...he's just trolling, just pushing as (5.00 / 3) (#112)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:59:01 PM EST
    many buttons as he can, and sitting back and enjoying the popcorn.

    Damore can believe whatever he wants, as can the rest of us.  I don't have to explain why I think he's wrong in the deeply sexist opinions he's expressed but I can tell you that his opinions are reminiscent of those expressed by Charles Murray who has tried for years to advance the theory that white men are intellectually superior.

    What I can do is just continue to ask why it is so important that people must be put into little gender boxes instead of being assessed as people on the basis of their job performance  I am particularly struck by him using women's reported stress levels against them: does he not think it's stressful to work with people who don't believe you are capable of the work you've been hired to do because you are female?

    Finally, that thing I said at the beginning?  About trolling and pushing buttons? Did you get extra butter on your popcorn?


    I wouldn't compare Damore's memo (none / 0) (#115)
    by McBain on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:21:27 PM EST
    to the work of Charles Murray, especially "The Bell Curve", but I would compare the over-reaction many are having to it. If I'm not mistaken, The Bell Curve suggested that Asians had the highest IQs, not whites?

    I wouldn't compare Damore to Murray, either. (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 03:23:39 PM EST
    McBain: "I wouldn't compare Damore's memo to the work of Charles Murray, especially 'The Bell Curve', but I would compare the over-reaction many are having to it. If I'm not mistaken, The Bell Curve suggested that Asians had the highest IQs, not whites?"

    Damore's recent screed is a unique form of self-righteous sexism and stupidity that can stand as such on its own, even as it rightly brings about its author's fall from whatever grace he once enjoyed with his now-former employer Google.

    Whereas with regard to Murray, "The Bell Curve" is just so much pseudo-scientific drivel for those who are desperately seeking to grasp some sort of semi-coherent if otherwise horribly flawed rationale to justify their bigotry, and thus further reinforce their own false sense of moral superiority.

    From my own personal perspective, both of these men represent the most annoying sort of speed bumps that this country has to offer, as we continue on our collective journey to a more just and tolerant society. Other than that, the only other thing these guys likely have in common is our own hope and expectation that the respective fifteen minutes allotted to each man by the late Andy Warhol are now up.

    And on that note, it's really too bad that we've yet to say the same for some other like-minded white male yahoos.



    The point of the pseudo-science presented (none / 0) (#118)
    by Peter G on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:33:38 PM EST
    in The Bell Curve -- totally demolished in such actually serious social science works as The Assault on Equality (two of the authors being old friends of ours) -- was not so much to prove that white males were superior as to prove that blacks were inherently intellectually inferior and on that basis to claim that progressive social programs should be abandoned.

    Armando hates (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:38:12 PM EST
    anyone who ever said anything remotely positive about the Bell Curve.....The original reason he hated Andrew Sullivan.....

    For us purists :) (none / 0) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 11:46:37 AM EST
    A forever following of all Armando ever writes or says

    you miss the obvious (none / 0) (#110)
    by linea on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:30:05 PM EST
    'systemizing' has nothing to do with coding. it is pseudo-science that uses a superficial notion of intelligence and asserts that those with autism/aspergers and those with below-average empathy have a 'more male brain.'

    i've already explained that his manifesto is sexist and insulting and should not have been distributed within the company.


    No it isn't (none / 0) (#49)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 12:35:01 AM EST
    The question is should he be fired for it?

    Actually, nobody here asked it until now.  First Amendment doesn't apply here.  

    Memo-dude has some sort of contractual agreement with the company, and there may be a clause about embarrassing the boss.  Or maybe there's a clause that says the boss can fire him for any dang reason he wants, because that's why the boss is the boss.

    His skill set clearly does not match the position.  I've had to fire a few people for that exact reason, and I can't blame Google for getting rid of him.


    Google uses peer reviews for raises and (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:15:00 PM EST
    promotions. He clearly stated a prejudice against some of his peers. He cannot be trusted as a neutral peer reviewer, thus not a good employee in a company that uses that system.

    Sucks for chauvinists how that all works (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 11:16:22 AM EST
    Sucks for those poor poor discriminted against white male relinquished to the trash heap losers, that women may only make 70 plus cents to their every dollar, but we make up 70% of the purchase decisions so we get to matter even with their deck stacked against us! Whaaaaaaaaambulance come get em!

    You might have thought (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by KeysDan on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 12:52:35 PM EST
    that the history of Larry Summers on this issue, back in 2005, that was a catalyst for his getting the boot from president of Harvard University, would have been taken into account.

    Of course, there were other factors involved in Summers unceremonious departure, such as not working well with others, but his suggestion that innate differences in sex may explain why fewer women succeed in science and math careers was the nucleation center.


    mr rider (none / 0) (#52)
    by linea on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 01:34:02 AM EST
    The male backlash? (none / 0) (#140)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 12:20:39 PM EST
    Where a majority of the white girls went too?

    After living (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 02:02:55 PM EST
    in Alabama you could probably see that in action every day.

    Sadly true (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 07:10:24 PM EST
    Jeralyn time to face the music (none / 0) (#26)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 06:22:49 PM EST
    It has been long enough since your Pelaton thread that you should have a rough idea about your morning resting heart rate.  Hope you have been keeping up with your exercise routine and wearing your fitbit to bed at night so you can enter your waking HR daily.

    No matter how good a personal trainer is the bottom line is getting fit may be a life style change for some folks.  Hope you stay with it.  It will change your life, swear to God.

    I think it's 53 (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 03:40:19 AM EST
    that's what it usually says on my fitbit when I've been sitting on the couch watching TV for an hour and when I wake up in the morning. But on the Peleton, wearing the chest monitor, it jumps around from 105 to 175, usually hovering around 120 to 150. The Fitbit watch shows around half of that. The finger monitor is closer to the fitbit but slightly higher. None of them show the same thing.

    Like I said, Peloton shows the chest monitor readings as I'm riding and saves them for every bike ride, including in graph form, so I can compare them and show my doctor next time I see her. I don't have any other apps for the chest monitor, to see what it reads when I'm not on the Peloton, but I haven't looked for one. I have noticed the heart readings are down somewhat from when I began.

    I also found a second class with Rolling Stones music. I also really like seeing the funny monikers people use, it reminds me of when blogging first started 15 years ago and the choice of names was a big deal.

    I've taken over 40 classes in a month, and when I began, I was in the bottom 10 of the 1,200 to 3,000 riders taking the same class. Now I'm in the bottom 200, meaning 190 or so are worse than me. So I guess that's progress, but an athlete I'll never be :)


    If it's anything like running (none / 0) (#68)
    by CoralGables on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:49:45 AM EST
    You'll keep improving for about seven years if you continue somewhat seriously.

    Combining music and exercise (none / 0) (#71)
    by ragebot on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 11:03:18 AM EST
    is an interesting subject.  There is a lot of research dealing with cadence when running, biking, and swimming.  As a rule runners want a cadence of 90 and much the same for swimming.  Biking is a little higher say around 100 or a little more.  A lot of what I will call modern music, as opposed to classical, has a beat/cadence of around 90.  One of my favorite songs when running was "Run Through the Jungle" by CCR.  Once I got a good watch that recorded HR and GPS distance I noticed when that song was playing I was running faster.  I am convinced there is a real connection between music and your exercise intensity.  For some of my really long runs (20+miles) I would always try and have classical stuff playing since it seemed to calm me down.  Many folks have what I will call an emotional connection to certain songs/groups/whatever and  used wisely it can improve results from exercise.

    When doing (none / 0) (#114)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:16:33 PM EST
    the elliptical at the gym, I listen to the 24 hour fitness channel music.  I have learned that on every quarter hour, they stop with the music and play commercials.....

    I dread the commercials.....and even try to time my work out to place the hardest intervals so I miss the commercials.

    Music does make a difference....

    But when I run outside, no music....but it is nicer to be on the move......


    I'm Listening to Audiobooks and Podcasts (none / 0) (#128)
    by RickyJim on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 08:13:24 AM EST
    all the time while lifting weights or doing aerobics.  However, I don't know if anybody else does that.

    Jeralyn, 53 is really good (none / 0) (#113)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:11:42 PM EST
    72 is average.  Getting in the 40s takes awhile.

    Although Rage would (none / 0) (#117)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:32:51 PM EST
    remind that resting heart rates can vary from person to person...

    Don't know if it's changed my life (none / 0) (#41)
    by CoralGables on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 10:13:45 PM EST
    but I'm sleeping ten hours a day and have discovered the downside of the piriformis muscle.

    Could be you have the (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 10:26:04 PM EST
    Beaton's type B variation.  A key rule of training is you can train through discomfort but can't train through pain.

    I assume you've discovered the piriformis (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 12:32:55 PM EST
    stretch? My not have changed my life, but sure changed my running life. Doesn't take but a little light stretch every morning...

    One of my favorite quotations (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by ragebot on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 05:31:04 PM EST
    is from Alberto.  He famously said "stretching is not an Olympic sport" when asked about how essential stretching was to his success.  He was certainly not the most limber guy in the world.  While I always tried to have a regular stretching routine I was also always put to shame by some of the 18 year old coeds I met in the gym at FSU.  And I still remember the famous line in "Point Break" by Johnny Utah when Pappas told him he was going to learn how to surf as part of his undercover work for the FBI.  He said that "is for little rubber people who don't shave yet".  Just as different folks have different heart rates the same goes for how flexible they are.  One thing Salazar said that still sticks with me is his question "when do dogs and cats stretch"; his answer was when ever they feel like it.  I still think that is the best advice I know of about stretching.

    I've coached T&F for many years, just spent last Tues eve at the track with Laszlo Tabori, a kid I coached was in the last Olympics, and potentially two more will be in Tokyo in 2020, etc.

    As someone who's right piriformis gives him fits on occasion, I was stunned at the immediate results of a lil' piri stretch in the AM...


    I discovered it a few weeks ago (5.00 / 2) (#111)
    by ruffian on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:46:22 PM EST
    when after breaking my toe, wearing one flat surgical shoe and one regular show, however hard I tried to match the height, really messed up my lower back. Did some research and discovered how to work out that kink with stretching and massage. But what really put it right was getting another sugical show for the other foot.  Muscles and nerves are fascinating!

    You would think (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Lora on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 05:05:15 PM EST
    that the medical profession would know this and make sure a pair of shoes were provided, instead of one.

    But what really put it right was getting another sugical show for the other foot.

    I have a friend who I've discovered was hobbling around throwing out her back using just one surgical shoe on her injured foot.

    How can the medical profession not be aware of this???


    Yes, they should be aware (none / 0) (#149)
    by Zorba on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 05:16:12 PM EST
    Anything that throws your gait off can impact your back.
    Also, work on your core muscles, as well.  I have a friend who had back problems, and the doc sent her to a physical therapist, who evaluated her and told her, "Your core muscles are weak, that's why you're having back problems."
    So, yes, they worked on strengthening her core muscles, and eventually, her back problems went away.

    I'm glad it helped! (none / 0) (#147)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 03:40:16 PM EST
    I started running (none / 0) (#116)
    by MKS on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 09:28:04 PM EST
    a couple of months ago after a year and a half of just doing the elliptical at the gym.  Man, I can feel the difference.

    I do the elliptical really hard for an hour. And, I mean hard.  I typically lose 5 pounds of sweat doing it, weighing myself on the same scale immediately before and after in the buff in the locker-room.  So, my resting heart rate and cardio conditioning were pretty good.  My quads and legs seemed in pretty good condition.

    But, since I started running, I have discovered muscles in my calves, hips and backside I did not think existed.....Just from relatively short runs....

    The pay off for running is my blood pressure has dropped 10 points, which was one of the main goals here, and which had stayed too high I thought, even though I did all that cardio in the gym....


    Tonight in the Twitter Wars, ... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 09:30:10 PM EST
    ... Armando aims his mighty blowtorch at a most eminently worthy subject of his current online ire, Tony the Mooch.


    Friday Open Thread? (none / 0) (#40)
    by CoralGables on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 10:10:57 PM EST
    Where did the week go?

    The week didn't go anywhere. (none / 0) (#46)
    by caseyOR on Wed Aug 09, 2017 at 11:23:56 PM EST
    Today is Wednesday. Just half way through the week. Perhaps the Friday Open Thread designation is wishful thinking on Jeralyn's part.

    First it was "Thursday is (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 01:01:30 AM EST
    the new Friday."

    I have no idea (none / 0) (#54)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 03:47:26 AM EST
    what I was thinking, but I've corrected it. I'm used to getting it wrong by one day, but two days is a first.

    Are you ready for some football? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 08:30:39 AM EST
    First Ravens pre-season game tonight. Versus Washington. Battle of the parkway (both teams play in little ol' Maryland). Lots of training camp injuries. Don't know what kind of team they will have this year.

    I'm ready for tequila shots. (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 10:03:57 AM EST
    And it's only 5:10 a.m. out here.

    I'm not expecting much, Chuck, but (none / 0) (#72)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 10, 2017 at 11:08:00 AM EST
    am getting the feeling that Joe Flacco's back is this year's Breshad Perriman's knee or leg or whatever he had - you know, Harbaugh keeps saying "he's coming along, and he'll play as soon as they tell me he's ready," and we heard that from him for an entire season with Perriman.

    So many injuries this year, and more than a few new names, I'm like you: no idea what this is going to look like.

    If they can just get out of the preseason without more season-ending injuries, that will be something.

    Kinda just not feeling it this year, but would be happy to see something to get me excited about them again.


    Something to watch in the fall (none / 0) (#131)
    by vicndabx on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 09:44:28 AM EST
    Oral argument Gill v. Whitford


    By cementing in majorities - or sometimes even supermajorities - that allow lawmakers to pursue their agendas without regard for the changing tide of public opinion, these extreme gerrymanders rob voters of their right to accountable legislatures. When states like Wisconsin or North Carolina, which have vibrant political cultures that frequently produce close statewide elections and switches in party control of statewide seats, are locked into the same legislative slates dominated by one party, voters also lose their right to a representative government.