Sunday Open Thread: Hiatus

I am in trial prep mode and will not be blogging before the end of next week, after our Final Trial Preparation conference. I have not read the news since Wednesday. I am inundated by jury instructions, witness lists, exhibit lists, motions in limines, etc. Since I don't write about my own cases, that is all I will have to say about it, other than to say the trial is expected to last a month.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    The transgendered ban (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 07:44:37 PM EST
    I just figured out why cheeto did that.  He did not consult with the generals.

    Obama allowed transgendered people in the Armed Forces.  So, petulant cheeto wants to reverse stuff Obama did.  That's it. Obama did it, so Trump wants to undo it.

    Probably partly at least (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 07:52:12 PM EST
    But also his idiot inbred base loves it.

    That Obama did it definitely gravy.

    I still don't think it's settled.  The whole thing of trying to deal with those currently in the service differently from those who want to join just seems to my unlegal mind to be a massive legal can of worms.


    Good point (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 08:57:26 PM EST
    Judge Virginia Phillips of Riverside, declared DODT unconstitutional nationwide.  She may have no problem dispatching cheeto's latest.

    The military already projected out (none / 0) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 10:04:09 PM EST
    Losing the legal fight on a transgender ban. Just how they do things, trying to get ahead of the power curves because it can affect readiness. Readiness is the first mission. When you are in court fighting, when soldiers are dragged out of service because someone thinks they saw them in a dress, this destroys readiness. It destroys morale too.

    Yes, and Trump (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by KeysDan on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 03:23:40 PM EST
    saw the Freedom Caucus and raised them an animus. Those wingers were angling for a prohibition on the Pentagon paying for medical procedures for gender transition (hormones, surgery, mental health care)for active duty military.  Trump "streamlined" it all with his tweet of a total ban.  Of course, the tweet needed some major tweaking.

     Trump being austerity-minded, was concerned about the costs of the therapies. And, the transgender costs could hold up US taxpayer money for The Wall that Mexico isn't going to pay for.

     It is estimated that between $2.4 million and $8.4 million has been so spent on transgender treatments, about the amount being spent on the treatment of erectile dysfunction. And, for another contrast,  $23 million was spent for acne agents in 2016. Not that there is anything wrong with these expenditures, either.

    The ACLU and Lambda have filed federal lawsuits today on the basis that the ban violates Constitutional rights by singling out trans people
    for unequal discriminatory treatment and a desire to harm.


    Yup, that's it (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 09:57:13 PM EST
    Nothing greater than pissing on that shoddy weak Obama. Gotta eclipse him somehow.

    While everyone's eyes are on Texas, ... (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 03:16:12 PM EST
    ... understandably of course, several potential Trump / Russia-related bombshells have dropped in the last 24 hours.

    Last night, the Washington Post reported last night that Donald Trump was trying to build Trump Tower Moscow while simultaneously running for president. This morning, the New York Times reported that Trump’s business partner had promised prospective Russian partners that building the tower would help get Trump elected.

    This afternoon (EDT), we learned from another Washington Post story that Donald Trump's attorney Michael Cohen sought to contact Vladimir Putin directly through Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov during the election to request the Russian president's help with getting Trump Tower Moscow built.

    Suffice to say that Cohen would never have done something like this without Trump’s prior concurrence and approval. So now we know that Donald Trump asked for Putin's help in getting Trump Tower Moscow built during the election, which pretty much contradicts everything that Trump has said thus far about his dealings with the Russians.

    Cohen, of course, earlier lawyered up himself, and now we're getting a pretty good indication why he did. So, it's probably best to keep an eye on events in Washington as well, because Harvey may not be the only deluge occurring this week.


    Trump's upcoming (probable) impeachment (none / 0) (#44)
    by NYShooter on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 07:04:56 PM EST
    is looking more and more like a replay of Bill Clinton's.

    I don't believe Mueller's investigation will get him on the issue of collusion during the campaign/election cycle. But, all the overwhelming financial evidence of his placing himself into a position of being blackmailed surely does.

    Clinton's impeachment, as we all remember, started with possible Whitewater shenanigans, and, ended with a stained dress, and, all that entailed. Mueller's investigation started with potential collusion, but, will end up nailing him because he placed himself (and, America) in a position to be blackmailed.

    I would like to see a conversation regarding this whole business of special prosecutors. There just seems something wrong when an official is investigated for a specific possible wrongdoing, but, failing that, can be "convicted" of some other "crime" anytime during his/her life.

    Don't misunderstand me, just about anything that gets Trump out of office is O.K. with me. It's the old, "what's good for the goose...." down the road that worries me.


    ... any problem with special counsels prosecuting related offenses which were uncovered during the course of their investigations. And given Robert Mueller's obvious penchant for playing his cards close to the vest, I don't think we know enough thus far to state with any real confidence that there was no collusion between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin. IF there was no collusion, it's certainly not for the want of desire and trying on the part of Trump's people.

    With regards to the Whitewater investigation under Kenneth Starr, I'd offer that the special prosecutor's docket was clearly kept open by partisan judges despite the fact that Robert Fiske, the first Whitewater prosecutor, had concluded that no wrongdoing on the part of Bill and Hillary Clinton had occurred. Thus, Whitewater became classically synonymous with a prosecutorial fishing expedition, having evolved from its initial investigation of a botched land deal by into a minute examination of Bill Clinton's extracurricular sex life.

    Susan McDougal's attorney at the time, Mark Garagos, claimed that Starr's office -- specifically deputy counsel W. Hickman Ewing, Jr. -- attempted to suborn his client's perjury by strongly suggesting that she could make things easier on herself if she'd confess to having had a sexual affair with Clinton. Mrs. McDougal refused, and to this very day has always adamantly denied that they had an affair.

    In the wake of Mr. Starr's recent abrupt dismissal as president of Baylor University, I find his past obsession with Clinton's sex life to be profoundly ironic if not pathologically partisan in its motivations. Starr apparently couldn't be bothered to investigate serious allegations at Baylor that several members of the Bears football team had sexually assaulted co-eds, which was the reason why he was ultimately shown the door in Waco.



    The irony (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 07:40:59 PM EST
    is that the GOP is the ones that set the entire rules for impeachment. It used to be a high bar to meet but the GOP has set it so low they are going to look like massive fools.

    Ironically even the guy who wrote the articles of impeachment Bob Inglis said it was a mistake to impeach Bill and they should have done a censure. Oh, well, too late smart I guess on their part.

    I actually think the collusion is going to be what takes Trump down and the money laundering is going to be icing on the cake.

    I have to wonder what he thought he was doing running for president. I guess it was all about his business and he never gave a thought to the majority of Americans.


    ... has politically weaponized several democratic tools that were obviously meant to be used sparingly. As an example, California Republicans in 2003 had no business abusing the recall process to initiate a frivolous effort against the recently re-elected Gov. Gray Davis.

    Sadly, and to the eventual and everlasting chagrin of many Californians, state voters went along with the scheme and replaced Davis with movie star Arnold Schwarzenegger, a political neophyte who subsequently proved to be totally underwater in the governor's office. The switch was disastrous not only for the state's financial coffers and economic health, but also for the California GOP as well. Now-wary voters have since mostly marginalized Republicans in state politics.

    You can't govern by platitude, gimmick and stunt.


    The difference, at least as I see it, is (none / 0) (#48)
    by Anne on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 08:27:23 PM EST
    that the Clinton investigations seemed like an effort to keep going and going until they found something, anything they could get one or more of the Clintons on.

    With Trump, I think Mueller's going to find a lot of "there" there, and the House and Senate investigations will, too, but Republicans are going resist to the death having to admit it's there, much less do anything about it.

    I don't think there's anything particularly unusual about investigations - whether by special counsels or state and federal prosecutors - often turning up evidence of other crimes; I think this happens fairly frequently, and as long as the evidence is gathered legally, I don't see the problem.  


    i think (none / 0) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 08:10:12 AM EST
    the exposure to extended investigations of a special counsel could be seen as the flip side of being the only person in the country who can not be indicted for their crimes.

    although i still think Mueller may put that to the test and indict him.


    the best views of the Houston flooding (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 06:07:35 PM EST
    This is going to be a terrible night (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 09:08:45 PM EST
    For Houston. They can't get everyone rescued and people are horribly fatigued :(

    Trump has pivoted and (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 01:01:31 PM EST
    is presidential (wait for it...Chuck Todd?, Chris Cillizza?)  Trump and Melania are in Texas (wait for the tweets--sad, thoughts and prayers, they love me, crooked Hillary, Obama wore a brown suit, bigly crowds).  Trump wearing a white polo shirt and khakis (where did we see that costume recently?)  with a beautiful windbreaker.

     Melania boarded Air Force One in Manolo Blahnik stiletto galoshes to keep her above the flood waters (although she changed into white tennies upon arrival and donned her blue FLOTUS cap; Don donned his white tractor cap with USA (available at $40), to keep his hair in place against the winds.

     It was not clear if they delivered cake, compliments of Mrs. Mnuchin ( aka Miss Louise Linton). If so, it probably was flood water-ready sponge cake.  Pardon, but no sightings, yet, of potential Arizona US Senate Candidate, Joe Arpaio...to greet Trump and Melania...and to grab any undocumented women and children that may be floating by or cowering in shelters.

    Cornyn, Cruz and other Texans will be pleading for federal funds since this hurricane is different from Sandy since Harvey hit in Texas, not NY or NJ. But to assure funding in the Republican Congress, it may be advisable to exclude trans people from receipt of any funds. Gays too. And, attach a new Hyde Amendment. The Texas governor and Lt Governor will be eager to comply.

    Arh, you lost me there for a sec. (none / 0) (#156)
    by Nemi on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 06:12:06 AM EST
    ... wearing a white polo shirt and khakis (where did we see that costume recently?)

    Silly me.

    Also, FLOTUS wearing a cap spelling out her function had me scratching my head.


    Oral argument heard on "Muslim ban" case (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 01:03:07 PM EST
    yesterday before the Ninth Circuit. At issue is what parts of Executive Order 2.0 remain in place and how broadly the exceptions should be interpreted, pending a decision by the Supreme Court on the issues later this year or early next year. According to a very knowledgeable observer, whose expertise as a legal journalist I admire greatly, the argument did not go well for the Administration's lawyers.

    Just for a goof (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 10:16:27 PM EST
    I did a number of Google searches on multiple phrases related to "video proves cops lied."  I won't post the search link, because I tried a half-dozen combinations that anyone else could figure out.  Cops are having to answer questions they had never heard, and wronged citizens are walking free by the dozens.

    The results numbered in the hundreds, depending on how far back you want to go, but universal shirt-pocket video ability is less than a decade old.

    We can only speculate about the number of cases that took place before such technology arrived, or that are taking place today when there is no witness in a position to record the events.

    Even though I am a law abiding citizen who has never been arrested, most of my interactions with police have been negative, because I'm a big guy with long hair and a beard and I have a lot of Black friends.  Somehow I get profiled, and addressed accordingly.

    I especially liked a fairly long video (11:00) made by a Black man who was sitting in his car eating soup.  He was parked in a hotel parking lot, and a couple of police officers didn't believe he was registered at the hotel (he was).  They demanded that he prove he had a room, and he declined to respond, even though one officer spent five minutes rapping on his window!  At one point they asked if he had any firearms, and he said (after showing them his CC permit through the window), "Yeah, I have lots of firearms in here!"

    It's reasonably profane (horrors!), but this guy has monstrous cojones and knows his rights.

    Speaking of cops behaving badly, ... (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 01, 2017 at 06:04:34 PM EST
    ... we ought to give a big shout out and lots of hugs to Alex Wubbels, R.N., of the University of Utah Medical Center in Salt Lake City, who protected her unconscious patient in the hospital's burn unit from an illegal blood draw by SLCPD Det. Jeff Payne.

    After being informed bluntly by Wubbels' supervisor that he was in violation of standing hospital policy, then grabbed Wubbels, dragged her out of the E.R. and arrested her for interfering in a police investigation.

    As an SLCPD spokesperson later sheepishly acknowledged, Wubbels was entirely correct in her interpretation of applicable Utah state law regarding legal blood draws by police from patients, and Payne was completely in the wrong. According to that spokesperson, the department has commenced an internal investigation of the matter and Payne has since been suspended from his unit, although he remains on active duty.



    The Wubbles-Payne (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 11:52:39 AM EST
    confrontation took place more than a month before the video went viral.  It was a matter of record.

    Why did the mayor and police chief of SLC wait until the video went viral to respond to the nurse's complaint?


    Simply put, they very likely hadn't seen it. (none / 0) (#128)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 12:56:07 PM EST
    The matter only dramatically escalated yesterday when Alex Wubbels and her attorney, frustrated in their repeated attempts to resolve this matter with Det. Payne's immediate superiors, released the bodycam video to the media and general public.

    And in defense of Mayor Biskupski and Chief Brown, neither of them should ever have to personally order their subordinates to perform their prescribed duties. As their superiors, they have every right to expect those subordinates to do their jobs both properly and without any prompting from above.

    The mayor in particular certainly shouldn't have to first assume that duly trained law enforcement professionals are otherwise going to behave badly or incompetently in that regard. Frankly, were I an elected official and I felt compelled to make such an assumption about a given department, that would quickly prompt me to engage in some very serious housecleaning.

    It was the obvious failure of those farther down the police department's chain of command -- who probably sought to run interference for their colleague Det. Payne -- which, once it came to the attention of the mayor and chief via the media, compelled them to act quickly to deal with a potential scandal. It would not surprise me at all at this point if some heads roll here as a result.



    Pretty good basis for suing the officer (none / 0) (#154)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 02:27:27 AM EST
    and sgt. Ias individuals and the emloying public entity for it's breech.

    Not just "hospital policy." It's law (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by Towanda on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 12:23:46 PM EST
    -- indeed, federal law that blood can be drawn only by meeting the criteria noted above, per a recent SCOTUS ruling.  (So, it also is Salt Lake City police department policy, as Ms. Wubbels made clear to the cops, showing them their policy -- in writing, from their chief.)

    This being a law blog, and too many media reports also lableing it only "hospital policy," I thought it worth pointing out that she was preventing the cops not only from violating hospital policy and their own police department policy but also from breaking the law.


    Obviously some law enforcement (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 01:43:09 PM EST
    Has been getting away with some $hit though. Training officers to draw blood at scenes? I read the officer demanding at the hospital and who performed the arrest had been trained to draw blood at scenes.

    They believed they were entitled to the blood. I don't think this entitlement belief was a one time thing.

    I'm willing to bet they've been violating people's rights unchecked.


    Specifically, he was citing to Wubbels, as legal justification for his insistent request, a Utah statute which had actually been repealed ten years ago.

    The detective had initially taken Alex Wubbels into custody at the behest of his own boss, for what they said was her wanton interference with the state's implied consent law, a statute which had actually been repealed by the Utah State Legislature over 10 years ago in April 2007.

    Det. Payne's suspension from duty is due in large part to all the adverse national publicity his illegal arrest of Nurse Wubbels has garnered for the Salt Lake City Police Dept., which is particularly embarrassing since Payne was apparently attempting to enforce a long-expired law. The video of their confrontation has since gone viral, and has also prompted the assistant police chief to apologize to both University of Utah Hospital and Ms. Wubbels on behalf of the department.

    The Salt Lake Tribune also reported that Nurse Wubbels' patient is William Gray, a 43-year-old reserve police officer from Idaho who was working his other job as a semi-truck driver, when a pickup truck  whose driver was fleeing the Utah Highway Patrol crashed head-on into him on a highway near Logan, UT, causing both vehicles to explode and leaving him critically injured. The 26-year-old male driver of the pickup truck died at the scene. The Tribune cited police reports saying Payne was trying to take the blood in order to clear Gray of any wrongdoing in the wreck.

    Alex Wubbels is also a former Alpine skier and two-time Olympian (1998 & 2002) who competed under her maiden name, Alex Schaffer.



    Alex Wubbels is from Aspen. (none / 0) (#117)
    by fishcamp on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 08:19:40 AM EST
    Oh, the tales you could tell. (none / 0) (#155)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 02:32:59 AM EST
    i believe (none / 0) (#119)
    by linea on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 09:49:29 AM EST
    this news headline is wrong:
    The nurse refused to let Detective Jeff Payne take blood from an unconscious patient without having a warrant.

    i believe the nurse was arrested for 'interfering with an investigation' because she refused to draw blood from an unconscious patient.

    even if state statute allowed police to legaly have blood drawn (which doesn't seen to be the case in this instance), no law requires a nurse or other medical professional perform those duties.


    Say what? (none / 0) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 11:09:24 AM EST
    linea: even if state statute allowed police to legaly have blood drawn (which doesn't seen to be the case in this instance), no law requires a nurse or other medical professional perform those duties."

    The act of drawing blood is a medical procedure called phlebotomy, linea. You're tapping into a vein, and doing it wrong risks a potentially serious injury or worse to the subject / patient.

    As far as I know, in most every state one is required to take an accredited class in phlebotomy and be duly certified as a phlebotomist / phlebotomy technician in order to draw blood legally. And that's the bare minimum standard. In California and Louisiana at least, one is further required statutorily to be licensed as a medical technologist (LMT), registered nurse or a physician.

    Beyond the obvious medical ethics and from a legal standpoint, why would you risk possible contamination of the blood sample by allowing someone who's untrained and uncertified in phlebotomy to perform such a procedure? While I'm not a criminal defense counsel, I'd think that in court, such a disclosure would be immediate grounds for a judge to disqualify that blood sample from ever being admitted into evidence.

    So, unless a police officer possesses such a certification, he or she has to rely on an LMT, nurse of physician to draw that blood sample -- particularly in a hospital setting, as was the case here.



    you misconstrued (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by linea on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 11:24:13 AM EST

     no law requires a nurse or other medical professional perform those duties [upon request by police]

    additionally (none / 0) (#125)
    by linea on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 11:40:53 AM EST
    my understanding is that she was ordered to draw blood and threatened with arrest if she did not. my point, no law requires her or any other medical professional to perform a medical procedure on behalf of police simply on their request.

    also, there seems to be some confusion in the media about who was drawing blood. i believe she was ordered to draw blood. the police officer was not drawing blood. it is unlikely the hospital would permit anyone not employed and insured by the hospital, despite having attended a two-day Law Enforcement Phlebotomy Technician course, to draw blood in their hospital.

    finally, it is my opinion that had a male been the head nurse of the burn unit and he calmly explained the hospital policy (with his supervisor on the phone) - he would not have been arrested. in my opinion, they were treating her like a petulant child, manhandling her, and later speaking to her condescendingly in the police car, precisely because she is a woman.


    Of COURSE it is (none / 0) (#138)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 10:14:00 AM EST
    finally, it is my opinion that had a male been the head nurse of the burn unit and he calmly explained the hospital policy (with his supervisor on the phone) - he would not have been arrested. in my opinion, they were treating her like a petulant child, manhandling her, and later speaking to her condescendingly in the police car, precisely because she is a woman.

    That's the best part of opinions based on absolutely zero evidence in an imaginary, alternate reality.  You can just say whatever you want, based on nothing more than conjecture and speculation, then pretend as though it has some basis in actual reality, rather than an imagined sexism/persecution complex.  

    But you're probably right ... who ever heard of a police officer getting angry with a man who didn't obey their commands, then placed them under arrest and speaking to them condescendingly.  Never happens.


    Indeed. (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 03:24:42 PM EST
    Yman: "But you're probably right ... who ever heard of a police officer getting angry with a man who didn't obey their commands, then placed them under arrest and speaking to them condescendingly. Never happens."

    It's far easier to just shoot him instead.


    Say what again? (none / 0) (#127)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 12:17:32 PM EST
    With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about here. In this particular instance, University of Utah Hospital personnel would have most certainly been required to accede to such a request from Salt Lake City police, provided that:
    • The police possessed a warrant to obtain that blood sample from the subject;
    • The subject had consented to the police request, (which he could not do because he was unconscious); or
    • The subject had been under arrest (which he was not).

    None of those prerequisites were met last July 26, which is why Nurse Wubbels refused to comply with Det. Payne's directive to draw a blood sample from her unconscious patient Mr. Gray.

    Wubbels' position in the matter was further supported by her on-duty supervisor at the hospital, who first asked Payne rhetorically (via cell phone) why he was "blaming the messenger" (Ms. Wubbells), and then bluntly warned the detective in no uncertain terms that "you're making a huge mistake right now because you're threatening a nurse," which is what then set Payne off.



    say what what again? (none / 0) (#131)
    by linea on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 02:11:04 PM EST
    i believe you are confusing two different things.

    With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about here. In this particular instance, University of Utah Hospital personnel would have most certainly been required to accede to such a request from Salt Lake City police, provided that:

    under no circumstance is a nurse legaly required, under threat of arrest, to perform any non-medically necessary task. there is no such state statute or federal law.

    or are you suggesting that hospital employess can be arrested for violating the employee manual or for not following the policies of their employer?


    That's neither here nor there, linea. (none / 0) (#143)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 02:32:52 PM EST
    You seem to be presently existing in a parallel universe, because nobody but you is talking about a nurse's right of first refusal as an individual.

    Had the Salt Lake City police properly presented University Hospital with a warrant for the patient's blood sample, the hospital would have been compelled to provide it or risk being held in contempt of court for violating a judicial order.

    And again, whether Ms. Wubbels or any other qualified medical personnel might refuse to comply with such a warrant as a matter of individual conscience is irrelevant, because said warrant was never obtained by the police in the first place.

    Please deal with reality, and stop blowing smoke up my a$$ with your incessant argument about the exigencies of an alternative and entirely hypothetical scenario which otherwise doesn't exist here, save for in your own imagination.



    i agree with the rest of your post (none / 0) (#132)
    by linea on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 02:21:07 PM EST
    i just wanted to point out that 'disobedience' is never a reasonable basis to arrest a nurse.

    Say what again? (#127)
    by Donald from Hawaii

    I did thousands of blood draws (none / 0) (#123)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 11:26:25 AM EST
    ...during my Army service, when I was a medical laboratory technician.  When you do it wrong, you either get nothing (missed the vein) or you go clear through it and the result is a hematoma, a big black area that looks like a bruise.

    My "training" was one afternoon in AIT (Advanced Individual Training) when the trainees practiced on each other, and a lot of practice on soldiers coming through the lab.

    Not disputing, just sayin'.  My Army training did not qualify me to do the same job as a civilian.


    Of course one wonders (none / 0) (#129)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 01:32:40 PM EST
    what that rage-aholic detective would've done in a similar situation with say, an 'uncooperative' inner city black woman, and without all those hospital professionals  watching.

    As it was, the other cop had to put a reassuring hand on his shoulder to make sure he didn't get too carried away while cuffing the nurse.

    "You know how you guys make sure they don't hit their heads when you put them in the car?"


    Inner city? (none / 0) (#133)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 02:35:07 PM EST
    what that rage-aholic detective would've done in a similar situation with say, an 'uncooperative' inner city black woman, and without all those hospital professionals  watching.

    I don't know whether you have ever been to Salt Lake city, but that is a place where you will not find an "inner city black woman" even if you look pretty hard.  Something to do with the Angel Moroni saying to Joseph Smith in 1819 that Black people are not worthy of heaven.


    I've been there (none / 0) (#137)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 08:42:42 AM EST
    they have about a block of hobos and about a block of inner city folks. Just enough for the cops to have a place to go and slap some people around if they're having a bad day.

    I should've said "they had" (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 10:51:19 AM EST
    rather than "they have", seeing that I spent a month working in the city in 1980 (where does the time go?). Just long enough to hear all the local urban legends about Mormon "avenging angel" hit squads and about the brothels where the bishops go..

    Ah, Orrin Porter Rockwell (none / 0) (#150)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 04:48:19 PM EST
    Good stories....

    Per the U.S. census, ... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 03:06:02 PM EST
    ... 75.1% of Salt Lake City residents identify as white, 22% as Latino, 4.5% as Asian-American, 2.7% as black or African-American, 2% as Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander, 1.2% as Native American and Native Alaskan, and 3.7% as mixed race.

    I know that adds up in excess of 100%, but but so sayeth the U.S. Census, which further notes that 20.3% of the city's population lives at or below the federal poverty line.

    Salt Lake City's demographics appear to resemble those of many other American cities in the west. That said, however, it's certainly an outlier in its own state of Utah racially, ethnically and politically.



    And Salt Lake City (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 04:47:00 PM EST
    is very small when compared to the rest of Salt Lake County.  A postage stamp sized city.  So, the City can look more diverse and liberal than the actual surrounding suburbs.....

    Not to mention the rest of the Wasatch Front (north to Ogden and south to Provo) which is very LDS and white.


    ... yesterday by Alex Wubbels' attorney, the Salt Lake County District Attorney's office has since announced that Det. Jeff Payne is now the subject of a criminal investigation. And both Salt Lake City Mayor Jackie Biskupski and Police Chief Mike Brown have issued formal apologies to Ms. Wubbels for Det. Payne's conduct.

    The incident in question took place on July 26 -- five weeks ago.


    and (none / 0) (#130)
    by linea on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 01:49:06 PM EST
    the police supervisor who later arrived?

    when the police supervisor arrives and payne explains [paraphrase] "i manhandled and arrested the head nurse of the burn unit for acting like a know-it-all b!tch" the police supervisor's response was [based on his actions], "oh good, i'll spend the next twenty minutes condescendingly explaining to her that she has to do what she's told."


    Just stop already, linea. (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 02:38:10 PM EST
    You're not making any sense whatsoever, and it's giving me a headache.

    "Paraphrased"??? (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 03:52:59 PM EST
    when the police supervisor arrives and payne explains [paraphrase] "i manhandled and arrested the head nurse of the burn unit for acting like a know-it-all b!tch" the police supervisor's response was [based on his actions], "oh good, i'll spend the next twenty minutes condescendingly explaining to her that she has to do what she's told."

    Is that what they call it when you have a completely imaginary "conversation" in your own head and then pretend someone else said those things?


    "Air[head] quote"? (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 02:22:50 AM EST
    next time (none / 0) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 10:14:10 AM EST
    you will listen!!!!!!!

    There are three (none / 0) (#136)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 09:34:19 PM EST
    ...conditions that allow for police collection of a blood sample.  The most recent modification was ten years ago.  

    Three rules. The hospital had a set of guidelines that explained these THREE rules.

    Payne was on the ""Blood Draw Unit."  He himself was trained to draw blood. He didn't know these three rules?



    Yes, I read this too (none / 0) (#142)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 01:46:43 PM EST
    How much you wanna bet SLC police officers have been performing illegal blood draws?

    I am amazed (none / 0) (#157)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 08:08:38 AM EST
    that McBain has not yet chimed in to somehow defend and justify this arrest. You know, "we don't have all the facts."

    Yes (none / 0) (#160)
    by FlJoe on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 10:37:51 AM EST
    I would love to hear the "comply or die" crowd's take on this.

    They tend to get very quiet (none / 0) (#163)
    by CST on Wed Sep 06, 2017 at 11:30:44 AM EST
    When the victim is white.  I think the fact that she had a position of some "authority" also makes her more sympathetic.

    It's not lost on me that the two recent cases with unanimous condemnation are this case and the one of the white girl killed by the black cop.

    That's not to say that these cases aren't deserving of condemnation - hell, maybe they will ultimately be what is necessary to force some change.  Kind of like how white people started dying of drug overdoses and all of a sudden it's a health problem instead of a criminal one.


    This has to hurt (none / 0) (#159)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 10:35:43 AM EST
    New policy at the hospital, enacted the day after the incident.

    Cops can't come in the Emergency entrance any more.

    "Law enforcement who come to the hospital for any reason involving patients will be required to check in to the front desk of the hospital," said chief nursing officer Margaret Pearce of the University of Utah Hospital. "There, a hospital house supervisor will meet the officers to work through each request."

    So instead of arresting nurses (none / 0) (#161)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 11:54:56 AM EST
    they will arrest supervisors.

    i like this (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by linea on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 08:59:34 PM EST
    but i'm not sure i understand this.

    arpaio's conviction stands - judge awaiting briefs

    on monday, arpaio's lawyers asked u.s. district judge susan bolton to vacate the criminal contempt-of-court conviction after the presidential pardon issued on friday.

    on tuesday, the judge canceled the sentencing hearing but refused to dismiss the conviction. instead, judge susan bolton ordered arpaio's lawyers and the u.s. justice department to file briefs on why she should or shouldn't grant arpaio's request.

    As far as I have ever heard or known (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by Peter G on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 09:51:24 PM EST
    A judicial order vacating the conviction does not follow from the issuance of a Presidential pardon. In states that have robust expunction (a/k/a "expungement") systems, a pardon may entitle the defendant to that relief. But there is no procedure for expunging federal convictions.

    Interesting. (none / 0) (#153)
    by oculus on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 02:24:43 AM EST
    The (none / 0) (#1)
    by FlJoe on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 02:44:23 PM EST
    flooding in Houston is phenomenal, it's likely that one of the biggest cities in the country will be virtually uninhabitable for days, weeks or months.

    msnbc weather yesterday said some models were (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 02:45:55 PM EST
    predicting more than 50 inches of rain.  i lived in Houston for a while.  thats unimaginable.

    I am (none / 0) (#4)
    by FlJoe on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 03:07:39 PM EST
    watching dozens if not hundreds of people being dropped off onto relatively high ground with absolutely nothing. These people will have to be sheltered, clothed and fed for the foreseeable future. I think this is a disaster that will eventually make Katrina look tame. Hopefully the death toll will be much less, but the scope of human displacement and economic damage is still hard to fathom. In NO the flooding was deadly but concentrated, largely sparing downtown and the business districts, here there appears to be flooding from the city center to the furthest suburbs, directly impacting upwards of 6 million people.

    With the current forecast it appears it may be  weeks before it even begins to improve.


    Flash floods (none / 0) (#5)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 03:16:14 PM EST
    Happen easily and often in Houston.  I survived a pretty big one.  We were on the way to our favorite Chinese restaurant which was about 10 minutes away and the flood happened midway.

    We ended up in a hotel lobby with lots of others until the next morning.


    Something about that desert soil (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 09:52:23 PM EST
    Flash floods quickly. Arizona and parts of Colorado the same. Colorado Springs flash floods easily, but has drainage designs similar to Houston.

    i'm reading (none / 0) (#8)
    by linea on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 04:18:39 PM EST
    that roadside immigration checkpoints north of the disaster area remain open and the border patrol are screening those fleeing.

    OMG, Linea (none / 0) (#9)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 06:54:04 PM EST
    I hope that's not true.

    that's what i'm reading (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by linea on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 07:11:38 PM EST
    Can't have no damn (none / 0) (#33)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 11:18:39 AM EST
    dirty Mexicans trying to not drown. /snark

    Would it be too snarky to ask (none / 0) (#10)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 06:57:21 PM EST
    whether the Governor of Texas, mayor of Houston, majority of the state Legislature, and whoever else is responsible for disaster planning (and the water management part of urban development) are climate change deniers?

    sciencealert.con (none / 0) (#12)
    by linea on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 07:24:46 PM EST
    Kerry Emanuel, a hurricane theorist at MIT, feels it is a mistake to attribute any single event to global climate change.

    Singling out Harvey as some kind of climate-driven anomaly would be a big mistake. Yet the climate influence is still something we need to consider, said Kerry Emanuel, a hurricane theorist at MIT.

    "My feeling is, when there's a hurricane, there's an occasion to talk about the subject," he said. "But attributing a particular event to anything, whether it's climate change or anything else, is a badly posed question, really."

    I love the "dot-con" extension (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 07:36:43 PM EST
    A lot of my clients should use that for their domain names.

    i'm sorry (none / 0) (#15)
    by linea on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 07:49:02 PM EST
    that was a typo. it's sciencealert.com which is a legitimate science site and not climate change denying.

    Houston mayor is a Democrat. (none / 0) (#18)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 08:30:33 PM EST
    Don't know hos climate change bona-fides

    Houston (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 09:24:16 PM EST
    Is quite progressive.  The state government, not.

    Houston Mayor Sylvester Turner is a Democrat. (none / 0) (#23)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 09:39:12 PM EST
    Everybody else you noted is too cuckoo for cocoa puff on the subject of climate change. Most of the state's GOP congresscritters voted to deny federal aid to mid-Atlantic coast victims of Hurricane Sandy in the summer of 2012. when it comes to belief in climate science, it's never too snarky to bring up the fact that most Republicans' Heaven-fearing souls are full of dust bunnies and horse apples.

    My in-laws, who are from Corpus Christi, TX, are thankfully in San Diego right now visiting on of their sons, and were monitoring the hurricane closely. While the area was sideswiped by Harvey, it seems to have been spared the worst. We've now heard from everyone in my wife's family, and they're all safe and sound.



    GAME OF THRONES (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 02:44:38 PM EST
    could be delayed until possibly 2019.

    i am putting this in the new thread because its important and i had missed this completely.

    thanks to linea i now know the awful truth.


    every article is about huge episodes.  possibly feature length.

    tonight is 80 minutes i think

    so good news bad news i guess.
    i bet its late 2018.  hard to believe they will wiff on the final season of the biggest thing ever on tv.

    for those interested (none / 0) (#7)
    by linea on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 03:53:47 PM EST
    this is the game of thrones discussion thread referenced.

    Strange day yesterday (none / 0) (#6)
    by ragebot on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 03:36:27 PM EST
    I went kayaking at Wacissia, one of my favorite spring fed rivers.  There are 19 springs within a one mile radius of the head springs which have a constant year round temperature of 72 degrees.  It is a real treat on hot summer days to jump into the crystal clear spring fed water and cool off.  In fact just paddling on the cool water is similar to being close to an air conditioner.

    But what was strange to me was I saw several migratory birds that were already in breeding plumage.  I can't ever recall seeing breeding plumage this early in the year.

    Just hope this means an early winter and no more hurricanes like the disaster that just hit Texas.

    A couple of days ago... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by desertswine on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 11:37:09 PM EST
    I had to bury a beautiful Cooper's hawk which I had found dead in my backyard.  It hadn't been predated so I don't know what killed it.  Probably natural causes.  I feed the goldfinches so it was probably there for an easy meal.  I hate to see these guys go down.

    On the upside, I then made the two best bloody Mary's on the planet.


    We have an 'Io (Hawaiian hawk) ... (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 07:47:35 AM EST
    ... that lives in the 'ohia forest behind our house. They're native only to the Big Island, and they're found here in fairly significant numbers although they're also listed as a protected species. Every once in a while, she'll hang out in the neighbor's pandanus tree, likely scoping out the area for an unsuspecting meal. At about 20 inches tall, they're beautiful birds.

    We are surprised at the wildlife (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 11:53:11 AM EST
    That decides to live in the DC area. A doe with healthy triplets lives here now pretty much. I have given up on some flowers in planters though. So be it. Lots of foxes though and wild geese and rabbits everywhere too.

    Wow they just showed (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 07:53:03 PM EST
    The trailer for the next season of WESTWORLD.


    They have got (none / 0) (#20)
    by MKS on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 08:59:04 PM EST
    to keep Thandie Newton.

    She had (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 27, 2017 at 09:22:49 PM EST
    An interesting spot in the trailer.

    In other tv news
    Did Jaime just defect?  It was the one thing I was not expecting from reading the spoilers.


    Who else thinks Briane and The Hound (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 09:09:23 AM EST
    should hook up?

    And why do I suddenly feel like one of these folks that obsesses about One Life To Live?


    I forgot..Tormund (none / 0) (#32)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 09:17:28 AM EST
    has a big thing for Briane..

    And by "big thing" I mean strong feelings.


    Tormunds big thing (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 01:22:23 PM EST
    may have been BBQed by blue flame.  probably not.  very impersonal way to kill off such a great character.

    im thinkin the Stark sisters face off was the high point.  

    other than the other thing mentioned above.


    i just (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 01:23:23 PM EST
    watched it again.

    pretty darn rippin finale.


    Raises hand (none / 0) (#39)
    by vicndabx on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 02:08:22 PM EST
    Both outcasts/looked askance at by society.  She because of her size, and he because of his face & rep.

    They'd have some big bad a$$ kids.


    The ultimate Ralph and Alice couple (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 03:28:58 PM EST
    if there ever was one..

    The Hound might look the way he did after going down that hillside, but this time with a smile on his face.


    With Jamie heading North (none / 0) (#60)
    by ragebot on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 11:55:36 AM EST
    Briane will have lots of suitors.  The Hound, Tormund, and Jamie all have sorta been sweet on her.  Seems kinda funny to me that with all the babes around she has the largest number of guys hitting on her.

    I didn't expect that either (none / 0) (#135)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 07:43:01 PM EST
    Was afraid she was going to have the Mountain pound him, even after letting Tyrion go. She does still have a soft spot for her brothers.

    Saw one theory that Cersei is going to become the Night Queen. Ugh.However the Night King would to well to go use her walk-on map of the Seven Kingdoms.

    As you can imagine, I loved seeing that frickin' wall come down. But what is the Night King's end game? Just make everyone zombies? I wonder if he has more of a plan.

    Glad to see Littlefinger get what he deserved at the hands of the Stark kids. I even found a way to find it believable since the writing did not seem to me to have Sansa and Arya plotting together all along, even though that was the fan favorite theory. I think the conflict between them was real - they have never liked or trusted each other -  but in that last private conversation Sansa had with LF when he tried to make her imagine Arya's motive, and he led her down the path of thinking Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, Sansa knew that was utter BS. That is the last thing Arya ever wanted. So then she finally made these off screen plans with Bran and Arya.

    Anyway I hope they don't stretch this out till 2019. That just makes me feel old.

    On to Westworld!


    there are some very interesting theories (none / 0) (#151)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Sep 03, 2017 at 06:45:57 PM EST
    about what the Night King wants.   and who he really is.
    one of course is that Bran, the time traveler, is the Night King and it happens as sort of an accident.  which is beginning to make sense in light of the fact he is using all this power he really does not understand or control.

    I think (none / 0) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 04:25:35 AM EST
    we used to have a poster here named Scott that lived in Houston. I hope he is okay.

    Scott from Houston was a poster (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 11:42:19 AM EST
    here. He dropped out during the 2016 election.

    I, too, hope Scott is okay. The devastation in Texas is unfathomable and seemingly never-ending. Five deaths confirmed as of this morning.


    I have a client who flew in to (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 05:40:33 AM EST
    Denver from Houston yesterday (Sunday) early evening to meet with me today (Monday)-- since I hadn't read the news in days, I didn't think to ask her about the hurricane when I spoke to her just after her plane landed. Ill ask her when I see her and report back if there's something interesting.  I tried a federal case there for a month on and off 20 years ago and really liked the city. I have a lot of lawyer friends who live there. (Same friends, I'm sure, as Peter G.) I hope everyone in Houston is managing and FEMA does better for them than it did for NOLA.

    I am surprised your client was (none / 0) (#35)
    by caseyOR on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 11:43:35 AM EST
    able to get a flight out of Houston yesterday. I thought the airports had been closed due to flooding.

    The airport at Corpus Christi has reopened. (none / 0) (#45)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 28, 2017 at 07:05:32 PM EST
    The problem for my mother- and father-in-law -- who've been in San Diego and were planning to return home to CRP this morning -- is that they're flying Southwest Airlines so they'd have to change planes at HOU-Hobby to get to CRP. But Hobby Airport is completely flooded at present, and it's not likely to re-open any time soon.

    Their next best bets would be to buy a one-way ticket on American Airlines, which would route them through DFW, or to have Southwest rebook them into San Antonio (the carrier flies there nonstop from San Diego), where one of their daughters lives. She's already offered to drive them to Corpus Christi, which is about 140 miles to the southeast.

    Their own house is fine, and everyone in the family is safe. I talked to my brother-in-law, who lives out near the Naval Air Station just off the highway to South Padre Island, and he said that although they were without power for nearly 36 hours, it certainly could've been much worse and most of the city is now back online power-wise.

    Harvey made landfall just to the north of Corpus Christi, and the most destructive part of the storm has been its northeast quadrant. So while the city itself was basically sideswiped hard, it was mostly spared Harvey's full brunt. The neighboring community of Rockport, however, wasn't so fortunate. My brother-in-law heard that it was pretty much devastated.

    Obviously, our thoughts are with everyone in southeastern Texas. And get ready, CaptHowdy, because Harvey's projected to be up your way and over Arkansas by Thursday and Friday.



    I'm normally not one to post ... (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 05:17:16 AM EST
    ... solicitation of funds online. And Jeralyn, if you don't feel TL to be the proper venue for it, please feel free to delete this post. But at this particular moment, as the American Red Cross mobilizes its resources nationwide for what's likely to be a massive Texas relief effort, that organization could certainly use some help, if any of you feel so inclined. Here's the link to the ARC's Hurricane Harvey relief fund.

    There are other similarly reliable and reputable relief organizations involved in the current effort, of course. If you're already helping one of them, thank you. For those of us who are simply too far away from the immediate scene of disaster to render personal aid to the afflicted, our financial assistance in whatever amount we can afford is truly appreciated by both providers and victims alike.



    Nope. (none / 0) (#66)
    by leap on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 03:52:09 PM EST
    Not the Red Cross. None of this is new information. I read about ARC's bad business back in Katrina days, and have not given them a second thought since. Or even a first thought. I am sure there are better groups to support if one is so inclined. Maybe check out Charity Navigator to get details about different orgs, although they have given ARC four stars for "Accountability and Transparency." Hmmm.

    My grandmother worked with the Los Angeles chapter for over 30 years, as both a board member and a volunteer. I further worked with them out here for several months in the aftermath of Hurricane Iniki in Sept. 1992, a Category 4 storm which devastated the island of Kauai and the leeward coast of Oahu. I saw what the Red Cross does first-hand.

    So, suffice to say that I very much disagree with what you "read" about that organization. Given the then-unprecedented magnitude of the Hurricane Katrina disaster and the chaos left in its immediate wake, the American Red Cross still mobilized more than 175,000 relief workers, housed nearly half a million people in hotels and shelters, and handed out more than $854 million in emergency assistance to 930,000 families -- all accomplished within three weeks of Katrina's initial landfall in Louisiana and Mississippi.

    Were there problems in the coordination of the Red Cross's relief efforts? Yes, undoubtedly. But when one considers the sheer size of the collective effort that had to be mounted, one has to expect that sometimes things will happen an somebody will be unhappy. And the Red Cross has freely admitted that in some locales that were affected by Hurricane Katrina such as Hancock County, MS, its initial response was somewhat less than optimal. But hey, if you think you can do a better job at organizing a relief effort than the American Red Cross, then by all means, go for it.

    Otherwise, to cast aspersions upon that organization from the comfort of your living room without having ever walked in its volunteers' shoes in a disaster zone -- well, I consider such talk to indeed be extraordinarily cheap. It's further been my own considered experience that those who criticize nonprofit relief efforts the most, would themselves likely have trouble organizing a one-float high school homecoming parade were that responsibility to be left to them.



    From (none / 0) (#53)
    by FlJoe on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 08:25:53 AM EST
    the "in a nutshell files"
    Republican Trump ally reportedly says: 'He's an asshole, but he's our asshole'

    I saw this, too, and I guess (none / 0) (#54)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 08:43:17 AM EST
    if it were just a case of him being an a$$hole, that would be one thing, but it's just so much more, and so much worse, than that.

    But if this is going to be the GOP line on Trump, I guess we know for sure that while they will continue to "speak out," they aren't actually going to do anything meaningful about it, and I think anyone who believes they will is mistaken.


    i hope they like the look (none / 0) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 09:08:57 AM EST
    cause they are going to wear that a$shole around their necks for a generation.

    there are some lame congressional attempts to prop up Trump but i think they are desperate moves that are as much as anything a reaction to the other thing starting to be discussed which is many elected republicans are going to start distancing themselves from him.

    i have been reading that ever since Charlottesville.  we have seen some of it.  i believe we will see more.  


    I (none / 0) (#57)
    by FlJoe on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 09:53:03 AM EST
    am not holding my breath, Charlottesville is already fading in the rearview mirror. The Republicans are a craven and cowardly bunch who mostly cannot even admit to themselves that they supported this a-hole and the ones that do seem proud of it.

    I'm with you. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 02:26:55 PM EST
    I've never in my life seen a more craven bunch of cowards. I hope Howdy is right but I have deep fears that you and I are gonna be right.

    Proposal to kill Mueller probe (none / 0) (#56)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 09:24:53 AM EST
    So, I guess some members of the GOP ARE willing to do something, but apparently, it's not to get rid of Trump, it's to make Trump's troubles go away:

    Rep. Ron DeSantis (R-FL) has put forward a provision that would make deep cuts to resources committed to special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation into President Donald Trump's campaign and its ties to Russian officials, Politico reported.

    The proposal would end funding for the investigation within six months of passage and would prohibit the probe from touching any event that occurred before June 2015, when Trump launched his campaign.

    Good to know.

    Rep DeSantis (R. Fl) (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by KeysDan on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 12:12:59 PM EST
    is an aggressively ambitious, vile winger, even sporting an A+ from the NRA.  He was ready to run for US senator when Rubio dropped out for a minute or two, but returned to run when  the big offers did not roll in.  When Rubio discarded his pledge not to run, DeSantis bowed out...probably to await a run against Senator Bill Nelson (D.Fl).

    DeSantis is a Yale and Harvard Law graduate with a good military record.  Goes to show, as with Tom Cotton, all that liberal elitism does not always have that "contaminating" effect as claimed by wingers.  

    I don't think, (or, at least, hope) that even the Republican House will scamper aboard DeSantis's sinking ship of an idea.  And, it would be even harder for it to get past the Senate.  But, anything can happen these days.


    Politico reporting now (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 08:31:11 PM EST
    That Mueller is working with NY AG so that Trump's pardoning shenanigans are rendered useless.

    Though we discussed this possibility in threads here, it doesn't really prepare me for the reality that our sitting President is so corrupt that our worst case scenario is now the scenario.


    I saw that last (none / 0) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Aug 31, 2017 at 07:09:23 AM EST
    night. I thought wow. This is getting bigger and deeper.

    Curious as to the status ... (none / 0) (#110)
    by Yman on Thu Aug 31, 2017 at 01:17:19 PM EST
    ... of the NY AG's investigation of Trump's "charities".  I haven't heard anything since NY refused to Allie him to shut them down because they were under investigation.  The publicly available information alone seems pretty damning, although I guess it's small potatoes compared to colluding with Russia and obstructing justice.

    Unfortunately, the news coverage regarding Trump is often found wanting. Our increasingly myopic media appear far too comfortable with their own navel-gazing, and they seem to have lost their ability to walk and chew gum simultaneously.

    When the indictments (none / 0) (#112)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Sep 01, 2017 at 02:25:34 PM EST
    come down they'll report that. Schneiderman must be running a pretty tight ship because not much seems to be coming out of his office or as you say the media is ignoring what is getting out there.

    ... of prosecutors whose penchant is to try their cases, at least in part, before the media. That practice always struck me as disrespectful of the constitutional principle which guarantees a defendant's constitutional right to due process before the law. That principle doesn't apply exclusively to those people with whom we empathize or sympathize.

    Not knowing exactly what Mueller and Schneiderman are doing is undoubtedly frustrating but at this point, we have no choice but to trust them to be honest brokers here and place country before party.



    Tight ship on all fronts (none / 0) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 01, 2017 at 07:43:15 PM EST
    No leaks

    It's like that Southern night time, creepy, too warm, no crickets calm before the tornado sirens go off.


    Considering (none / 0) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 09:13:04 AM EST
    the media's penchant to get things wrong I would say no leaks and a tight ship is a good thing. I think Ken Starr's stupid leaking actually helped Bill Clinton because they were leaking everything even nonsense crap.

    Of course, this is going to lead to a humongous shock when the hammer comes down among Trump supporters. I wonder exactly how they are going to handle it. If you listen to Roger Stone they are going to take up arms and start mass murdering people.


    Roger Stone is such a sick man (none / 0) (#120)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 10:35:37 AM EST
    Because Trump is so impressionable I follow Stone's tweets, which are mostly tweeted directly to Trump, and the depth of Stone's illness exposed daily  is stunning.

    I tend to believe crazy takes a day off from time to time. The truth that full on crazy never rests always surprises me.


    Now Roger Stone is trying to diss (none / 0) (#162)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 05, 2017 at 07:28:49 PM EST
    District Taco. He says they won't take cash or something stupid like that, because replies to him state eating there and paying cash.

    I have not eaten at District Taco yet. It's on the list of places I'm told I must try though. DC loves District Taco. I'm supposed to eat at Taco Bamba this week, but tempted to meet and eat at District Taco first just because Roger Stone hates them.


    Judge in Brock Turner case can still be recalled (none / 0) (#58)
    by McBain on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 10:40:49 AM EST
    Persky drew criticism nationwide after he sentenced former Stanford University swimmer Brock Turner to six months in jail for sexually assaulting a woman who had passed out behind a trash bin near a fraternity house. Turner is no longer attending Stanford and is a registered sex offender.

    I understand the frustration some had with the verdict but recalling the judge would send the wrong message.... be tough on crime or else. I want judges focusing on the law, not what the public demands.

    Before I make the mistake of going (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Anne on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 11:21:27 AM EST
    down the rabbit hole with you again...it wasn't that people were upset about the verdicts on the three counts for which he was tried, it was the measly 6-month sentence for the conviction that carried a 14-year maximum, and for which the prosecution had recommended 6 years.

    And he didn't even serve the whole 6 months - he was out in 3.

    Judge Persky was elected by the people, so unless you are saying that California needs to stop that process (personally, I think electing judges is asking for less objectivity, not more, and too many opportunities for corruption and cronyism), I think the people have every right to have a say in what they expect.


    I Love A "What If" Question (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 12:42:26 PM EST
    I want judges focusing on the law, not what the public demands.

    What if the public agrees with you and demands that a judge focus on the law, and then he doesn't do it?

    As in this case.


    Aaron Brock was just the latest (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 05:03:41 PM EST
    ... in a series of judicial failures on the part of Persky.  The totality shows he is extremely biased.

    His record of pampering criminal/athletes did not start with Mr. Turner.


    FYI, the judge's name is Aaron Persky. (none / 0) (#79)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 07:56:17 PM EST
    The defendant's name in the Stanford rape case is Brock Turner.

    i agree (none / 0) (#81)
    by linea on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 08:36:09 PM EST
    Persky was the captain of the Stanford men's lacrosse team.

    in my opinion, persky is the equivalent of a racist southern judge from 1960s alabama who gives obscenely light sentances to KKK "good ol' boys" who brutaly beat african-americans that show up at the polling place to vote.

    in my opinion, persky has repeatedly shown a pattern of sexist anti-victim woman hating in cases of gang rape of an undeage child, rape and sexual assault of women, aggravated battery against women, and domestic assault.


    Those who desire to recall Aaron Persky ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 03:54:06 PM EST
    McBain: "I want judges focusing on the law, not what the public demands."

    ... from the state bench are arguing that his removal would likely accomplish exactly that. While I would agree that Persky acted entirely within his judicial discretion, I also think he showed questionable judgment with the relatively light sentence handed to Brock Turner who, after all, was convicted on three counts of felony sexual assault.

    As a result, Turner's since become the poster child for male and class privilege. But that said, he's also on probation for three years, and even a small violation on his part will send him to prison for up to 14 years. And he has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life.

    I believe the drive to recall Judge Persky is motivated at least in part by the public impression that once again, the female victim in such cases was somehow being blamed for her own predicament due to her inebriation at the time of the assault. In that regard, we have the victim's own statement, which she read aloud in court, bearing witness to her ordeal both that night, and likely ever since.

    So, did the fact that the victim was so drunk that she couldn't remember what happened that night, along with the defendant's own social status as both a child of privilege and a star college athlete, unnecessarily influence Judge Persky's decision to sentence Turner rather leniently, notwithstanding the gravity of the three felonies for which he had just been convicted?

    Personally, speaking as someone who believe in the maintenance of judicial discretion, I have no opinion on that. And to be perfectly honest, I believe that any evidence offered to that effect is mostly emotional conjecture on the part of those who want Persky recalled. But at this point, there's really no denying that the public anger toward Persky is out there, and it doesn't have to be at all logical to still be very real.

    Therefore, given that this particular public debate has now migrated to the political realm, I would also suggest that if Aaron Persky wants to keep his seat on the bench, it is now incumbent upon him to fully explain himself to the voters of San Mateo County, CA.



    I will take the recall position seriously (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Peter G on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 05:19:28 PM EST
    when I see public outrage and demands to recall elected judges for imposing a relentless pattern of harsh and excessive sentences, or racially biased sentences, which are everyday occurrences in our lower criminal courts. Far more common and far more serious a problem than the occasional aberrant exercise of undue leniency. (Which is so rare that in fact it is not a "problem" that needs fixing.) After all, if what I say were not so, how could we be suffering under the crisis of mass incarceration that our society is enduring?

    It doesn't matter what you or I think, Peter. (4.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 07:53:42 PM EST
    Judge Aaron Persky is likely to face a recall election, regardless. So, what matters at this point is what the voters of San Mateo County ultimately think about all this.

    And let's make no mistake about it -- this is now a political debate and not a legal one, and the election's ultimate result will be binding. Political graveyards are chock-full of people who once thought they were right and very likely were, only to see their careers get deep-sixed by angry voters anyway. And as we just saw last November, angry voters aren't necessarily rational in their decision making.

    This is why the election of judges is so stupid. The judiciary is supposed to be a firewall that tempers the excesses of the mob. Subjecting our magistrates to the recall process effectively reduces that firewall to so much kindling.



    Yes, I agree, election of judges (none / 0) (#96)
    by Peter G on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 09:03:22 AM EST
    is stupid. No, I do not agree, however, that it does not matter what I think.

    Well, I do care what you think. (none / 0) (#99)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 05:29:03 PM EST
    And so do you and your peers in the bar, naturally. But frankly, our opinions don't matter so much to the voters of San Clara County (San Jose) -- not San Mateo County, as I had mistakenly said earlier -- who will likely decide Aaron Persky's judicial fate, now that the recall petition drive has been cleared to resume.

    These people are for real, Peter, and they want their pound of flesh. And if Persky doesn't stand up for himself, and if his peers and others in the CA Bar Association don't do likewise and make the case that recalling judges is a bad idea, there's a very good chance that this insurgent effort may well succeed.

    Don't think it can't happen. I remember when I was in high school, and California voters recalled the Chief Justice of the State Supreme Court.



    So is election of Prosecutors, (none / 0) (#100)
    by RickyJim on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 07:02:41 PM EST
    Grand Juries, plea bargaining, and the rest of the adversary system as practiced in the USA.  And the chances that well known better procedures will replace any of them seems to be zilch.  Just like the stupid way of choosing Presidents.

    Election of judges does have similar problems (none / 0) (#102)
    by Peter G on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 08:15:26 PM EST
    -- but not the same problems -- as election of prosecutors. The other issues you raise are unrelated; on some I agree with you and not on others, as we have discussed on other threads.

    where do you get this from? (none / 0) (#78)
    by linea on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 07:56:02 PM EST
    i googled and can't find this.

    But that said, he's also on probation for three years, and even a small violation on his part will send him to prison for up to 14 years.

    where did you read that the judge sentenced him to 14 years but stayed 13.5 years?

    as i understand it, if he violates his probation, he goes back to the county jail (where they hold drunk drivers and shoplifters) for his final three months.

    also, to give a convicted sexual offender only three years probation is ridiculous.


    You're likely correct. (none / 0) (#80)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 08:01:58 PM EST
    That said, violating his probation could potentially subject Turner to new charges, above and beyond the original charges for which he was convicted and sentenced. He'd be a fool to step out of line.

    Oh, for those days of yore, (none / 0) (#65)
    by KeysDan on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 03:29:16 PM EST
    when we had good Republicans..., for example, when former FLOTUS Barbara Bush said of New Orleans evacuees crammed into the post-Katrina Houston Astrodome: "so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them."

    President George HW Bush and Barbara, sent their best wishes from their manse in Kennebunkport, ME, saying their hearts are in Houston.  The Bushes divide their time between Maine and Houston. Reports, as of Sunday, are that their Houston home has not been "compromised."  The Barbara Bush Public Library, on the north side of greater Houston, is closed, but late fees will be waived.

    Saw (none / 0) (#69)
    by FlJoe on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 04:52:54 PM EST
    tRump and a bunch of Texas Republicans praising the virtues of big gubmint spending unlimited billions on the bigliest and best recovery ever!

    Only Republican Senators voted against (none / 0) (#101)
    by Jack E Lope on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 08:01:46 PM EST
    ...the Disaster Relief Appropriations Act of 2013, HR 152 - Making supplemental appropriations for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2013, to improve and streamline disaster assistance for Hurricane Sandy, and for other purposes.

    The 62 Yea votes did include 9 Republican Senators (mostly from coastal states).


    Hey Howdy (none / 0) (#72)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 05:42:58 PM EST
    Started watching Ozark this week. Proving to be interesting. Thanks for the recommendation.

    I'm not a big Jason Bateman fan but I also (none / 0) (#73)
    by McBain on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 05:58:36 PM EST
    enjoyed Ozark.  Don't understand why they don't go into witness protection but it's fun to watch.

    Anyone give their pets fish oil or glucosamine? (none / 0) (#74)
    by McBain on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 06:04:22 PM EST
    My new dog is awesome but he has the common small dog problem of luxating patellas (trick knee).  The vet suggested fish oil and glucosamine to reduce the pain.  I'm generally very skeptical of supplements for people but I'm willing to try it for my dog.  

    Anyone have any success stories for pet joint related problems?  

    Not me but (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 06:14:40 PM EST
    a friend had great success with glucosamine for her dog.

    Yes to both (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 08:57:45 PM EST
    I don't have a dog with hip dysplasia anymore, but I did and glucosamine was a happy life saver/giver.

    It can change their metabolism a little, you might need to feed less food or give fewer treats. Some dogs have a very hot metabolism though and glucosamine and l gives them vitality and shine. Fish oil makes us all shine, people and dogs.


    Glucosomine slows (none / 0) (#84)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 09:52:27 PM EST
    your metabolism?  Not excited about that....

    It does (none / 0) (#85)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 10:05:33 PM EST
    I just read that it makes the body burn glucose over stored fat....

    Hmm, the things you learn here....I am off the glucosamine....


    It varies from person to person (none / 0) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 10:20:43 PM EST
    Or dog to dog :)

    It's something to be aware of because extra weight is more strain on joints.


    Do you recommend a particular type/brand? (none / 0) (#92)
    by McBain on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 12:28:27 AM EST
    I bought some treats that have glucosamine and chondroitin.  I've taken pills myself but I doubt my dog would swallow those.  

    Since we have moved I now can shop (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 12:45:40 AM EST
    At Costco. For years I've read the notes from professional dog handlers that they use Costco food and Costco dog biscuits which are supplemented with fish oil and glucosamine.

    I'm now seeing what they speak of. I'm feeding the Costco premium dog foods and the dogs are in better condition than when I fed Farmers Co-op foods. And they love the dog biscuits. A box of Costco biscuits is a lot of biscuits though for one small dog, I can't remember if they had a small dog size either. I'm still on my first giant box.

    You can spend a lot of money on supplements or a little. Before finding the dog biscuits I just gave the dogs the brand we normally took for supplements. We take krill fish oil. Seems to work better and you don't have to take a huge sized dose.


    If you put a pill in some cheese (none / 0) (#94)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 12:48:46 AM EST
    Or a piece of cold hot dog, you can get them in most dogs.

    We had a dog (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 03:49:35 AM EST
    where we would stick the pill in a piece of a hot dog and darn if that dog did not find the pill and spit it out. So then we had to break the pill into four pieces and put each piece in a hot dog so that he would take the pill. I guess the pieces were not small enough for him to find :)

    Yes, I have given my goldens glucosamine (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by ruffian on Sat Sep 02, 2017 at 07:14:41 PM EST
    for a long time.  Currently I use the Dasuquin brand which friends and my vet recommended. It has other ingredients for pain relief too. No bad side effects and it does seem to help keep them mobile longer. Good prices online - don't buy at the vet.

    I use fish oil too for my current golden's coat and skin. She has very long hair and I think it makes it shiny. I get the pure  wild salmon oil. Not sure if it also helps the hips too, but from what I have read it might.  

    Now she did have a period a few weeks ago where she wouldn't eat for a week or so, so I stopped all the additives until she got better.  What was wrong? who knows for sure.  Blood tests showed she was low on folic acid sho she has been getting B12 shots. But right at the same time the blood test results came back, she started eating again. I did resume the Dasuquin, need to start the fish oil again too, if for no other reason than I have a whole  bottle of it to use.

    Dogs...its always something.


    I take both (none / 0) (#83)
    by MKS on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 09:51:01 PM EST
    but don't give it to our Fido.....she gets mozzarella (low fat) cheese.

    Yes, vet recommended it (none / 0) (#87)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 10:20:09 PM EST
    for our aging grandpuppy, showing signs of arthritis, and the improvement has been terrific.

    There once was a nun from Milwaukee ... (none / 0) (#76)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 07:39:42 PM EST
    ... Who challenged a Speaker so cocky.
    He hemmed and he hawed
    'Til his crowd went slack-jawed,
    Then she said "Hey! You're full of malarkey!"

    I have visited Sinsinawa (none / 0) (#89)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 10:27:33 PM EST
    and researched (for one of my books) its remarkable history in educating girls,  even before there were public schools in the territory -- as Wisconsin was not yet a state -- and met many of the good women there.  So good was their school that the first profs of the University of Wisconsin came to Sinsinawa to marvel at their science labs, better equipped than at the UW.

    And this nun taking on Ryan is not a surprise.  Their history is replete with wonderful instances of  standing up to officious priests.  

    Plus, Sinsinawa is in the beautiful Driftless Area of Wisconsin, always worth a trek.  


    Also, women religious in Wisconsin (none / 0) (#90)
    by Towanda on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 10:36:28 PM EST
    from another order helped to found NOW -- among Wisconsin women who comprised half of the founding members at its first convention. . . .

    One of my aunts was a nun, also in another order, who took me to task (in the nicest way, of course) after my first book on Wisconsin women, because it focused on reform efforts in which nuns were not active.  But that gave me the impetus to make amends in my second book, widening its reach and research, which corrected my girlhood biases about nuns, who scared the heckoutame in grade school.

    And those scary grade school nuns were Dominicans, like the one who took on Ryan.  I hope she scared the heckoutahim.


    Most people don't realize that in Hawaii, ... (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Aug 29, 2017 at 11:00:21 PM EST
    ... Roman Catholics are far and away the largest single Christian denomination in the islands. For all the coverage that our Protestant (Congregationalist) missionaries receive in history books, the Congregationalists comprise but a small portion.

    Just my impression as someone who's lived here now for 30 years, but I think the nascent appeal of Catholicism in the islands came about as a result of the exceptional ministries of the Jesuits and the Sisters of St. Francis, as both orders tend to emphasize teaching and service to the community. The Catholic education system is big out here.

    St. Damien (aka Father Damien) was a Jesuit priest, and his ministry to the lepers of Kalaupapa is world renowned. St. Marianne Cope (aka Mother Marianne) was a Franciscan nun and nurse who came to Honolulu in 1881 to advise the Kingdom's Ministry of Health. She took over Damien's ministry on Molokai when he became ill himself, and she also founded what's today known in Hawaii as the St. Francis Healthcare Systems.

    Having gone to Catholic schools myself, I've met a number of priests, brothers and nuns who are educators, and I have an awful lot of respect for them.



    I like the Catholic (none / 0) (#97)
    by MKS on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 11:59:57 AM EST
    Church in Waikiki....behind a McDonald's iirc.  A statue of Father Damien out on the sidewalk in front.

    ... which is near Kapiolani Park on the east side of Waikiki near Diamond Head. And it's actually across the street from the beach itself, and not behind a Mickey-D's, although one is nearby. It's a pretty church, and its parish dates back to 1854, although the latest iteration of the church itself was built in 1962. Termites took their toll on its former wooden predecessor.

    But to be perfectly honest, the only time we're ever down there anymore is for the biennial State Democratic Convention at the Sheraton Waikiki or Hilton Hawaiian Village. Even when we lived on east Honolulu on Oahu, only six miles away from Waikiki, we didn't go. Waikiki has become so overtly tourism-oriented (and in my estimation, tacky) that most locals who aren't actually residents of the district (about 35,000 of those) really don't go anymore, unless they have a job at one of the hotels or restaurants, etc.

    The best Catholic Church to see in Honolulu is the Cathedral Basilica of Our Lady of Peace, which is also one the city's most historic churches alongside nearby Kawaiahao Church (Congregationalist) and the Cathedral of St. Andrew (Episcopalian). It's located in the downtown financial district, which is halfway between Waikiki and the airport. Downtown Honolulu is pretty historic in and of itself, and it's well worth spending a day to explore.

    Construction on the cathedral first began in 1837, but was interrupted by an anti-Catholic crackdown in the Kingdom which was carried out at the instigation of American Protestant missionaries who frankly resented the competition, which resulted in the imprisonment of several hundred mostly French Catholic missionaries who refused to heed King Kamehameha III's order of expulsion.

    The direct threat of French military intervention eventually changed the king's mind, and the immediate influence of his American missionary advisors waned accordingly as he issued a royal decree in 1839 which guaranteed freedom of the Catholic religion throughout the Kingdom.

    Our Lady of Peace was completed in 1843 and is actually the oldest actively working Roman Catholic cathedral in continuous use in the United States today. Saint Damien was first ordained at Our Lady of Peace in May 1864. And ever since the recent canonizations of both him and Saint Marianne Cope, the cathedral has become a real magnet for the Catholic faithful from all over the world. They celebrate mass there every weekday and Saturday at 12:00 noon, and many of the attendees are Catholic tourists.



    I am okay with Waikiki (none / 0) (#107)
    by MKS on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 10:23:08 PM EST
    Some of the beaches in SoCal are worse imo.

    One late afternoon, I wanted to rent a sun umbrella in Waikiki....for the beach.   It was about 4:00 p.m.   The vendor said fine but she couldn't charge me in good conscience--it was just too late in the day....she had a brawny guy dig a hole for it.....

    At a local hotel in Waikiki, we took a shuttle to the car rental....I went to give a tip to the driver, who was native Hawaiian looking....She refused the tip and said she loved her job.....

    Waikiki is still better than most any other place...

    If it were up to me, I would go to Molokai forever if I could get an internet connection....

    My wife is a person of the city and needs more of an urban environment.....North Shore Oahu is the best compromise I can get so far.


    We went to Mass (none / 0) (#108)
    by MKS on Wed Aug 30, 2017 at 10:27:24 PM EST
    at St. Augustine's by the Sea.....

    I remember this old Japanese guy hissing at us and motioning with his cane to go out the side door as we were coming back from the Communion line.....We were out-of-towners and had violated some norm....It struck me funny....