Friday Open Thread

What's next for Taylor Swift after the trial? I hope it's Carpool Karaoke with James Corden. According to Billboard today, she's at the top of his list.

What TV is everyone watching this weekend? I have four episodes of Senor de Los Cielos to catch up on.

Other than that, I'm going to ride my Peloton and read a lot of wiretap transcripts. I'm ignoring Trump again, for now, until his next disasterous move.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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  • I've found it ... (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by desertswine on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 04:09:00 PM EST
    a safe place from the insanity of trump.  Just have to fill 'em up with food.

    Trump has dispatched (5.00 / 6) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 04:44:55 PM EST
    his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, to the Middle East to discuss a "path to substantive Israeli-Palestinian peace talks."  Jared will have meetings with the Saudis, UAE, Qatar, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, and the Palestinian Authority.  Jared is ready to go...as he told a group of interns recently, no history lesson needed and we've read enough books.  

    Jared should stop on the way back and resolve the North Korea matter.

    Israel (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 05:59:16 PM EST
    and russia are the only countries on earth that like the Trump cartel

    maybe they will give him asylum


    I saw that (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 06:08:51 PM EST
    and I started laughing. It's either laugh at this freak show or cry. I prefer to laugh.

    Also (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 06:09:47 PM EST
    If Trump wants peace in the ME it's the only place he is interested in peace.

    Today, apparently pleased with his distraction of the DC press, threatened military action in both Venezuela and Iran.


    He (none / 0) (#7)
    by FlJoe on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 06:44:14 PM EST
    is definitely in his comfort zone, plenty of foreigners to to lob WWE style bombast at......any thing but Russia story(save for a obligatory hat tip to Putin for firing 700 deep state thugs for him).

    It's like reality tv...with nukes! This may we live in interesting times sht is getting intense, Orange Sunshine intense, have we peaked yet?


    I'm definitely getting a metallic taste (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 06:58:11 PM EST
    In my mouth

    Hey, if you really want to need a sleeping pill, read this -


    Question:  if this is what the NSC is doing,  how secure are we?


    Saw (none / 0) (#9)
    by FlJoe on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 07:55:22 PM EST
    that, outrageous of course, but just another blast in the carpet bombing of crazy that's falling on our heads.

    At least he's gone, one less of the Bannon/Flynn stooges is a good thing, but only because, like a fool he put down his facist-lite/CT BS on paper and it caught the eye of tRump Jr and Sr.

    My big question is why Gorka is anywhere near the White House? That guy makes my skin crawl, he was supposed to be gone months ago, no security clearance but he is still there.


    Rich Higgins was (none / 0) (#50)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:35:04 PM EST
    fired from the NSC (a director of strategic planning), and I hope that he is, also, gone.  Some of these miscreants brought in by Flynn have been "fired" only to be found elsewhere.  For example, Ezra Cohen Warwick was reassigned to another security agency, McFarland is still lurking around awaiting her posting as Ambassador to Singapore, Tera Dahl is a partner with Gorka's wife.  And, of course, there is Bannon...relieved of his NSC membership, but still around to do damage on other fronts.    

    This, I believe (none / 0) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:51:40 PM EST
    Is the money paragraph

    In a comedy of errors, Trump later learned from Sean Hannity, the Fox News host and close friend of the president, that the memo's author had been fired. Trump was "furious," the senior administration official said. "He is still furious."

    Makes it sound (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 09:10:14 PM EST
    like McMaster's days are numbered. Good Lord if he's gone there's not going to be anybody left but white nationalists running things.

    Panetta hit the air, he's concerned (none / 0) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 09:49:18 AM EST
    This is in his opinion the biggest crisis since the Cuban missile crisis. Last week he has been trying to help Kelly, this week he's in a panic. If Kelly, Panetta, McMaster are all panicked (which I suspect they are) they will begin documenting mental instability in this President in order to remove him. I'd imagine there are some conversations in closed rooms on the hill.

    Bill Maher speaks for me (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 11:45:44 AM EST
    He was talking directly to Korean dictator Kim Jung Un and telling him his best friend Dennis Rodman lives in Newport Beach; so, don't send your nukes to the greater LA area.

    Heh, your buddy Dennis Rodman lives here, don't nuke us.


    I don't think Kim has many friends (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:06:18 PM EST
    Spouse says he doubts Kim has the ability to hit a long range target. He doubts he could successfully even dial in Guam. He might have a nuke, he might have a long range missile, but if he hit what he was shooting at he'd be damn lucky.

    The world has seen some lucky strikes though. And if he launches one and accidentally hit someone else, it's still losing bigly.


    Pray that your country is (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:34:49 PM EST
    a target.  110% good for tourism.  

    Wag the dog? (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Lora on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 10:09:27 PM EST
    Anybody see all Trump's hype over North Korea as creating a big distraction from the Russia probe?

    Yes and (none / 0) (#53)
    by BackFromOhio on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:40:25 PM EST
    Mini-nukes story is recycled nonsense, i.e., true fake news, IMO and others'

    Let's (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by FlJoe on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 09:33:57 AM EST
    hope that Charlottesville turns out to be nothing more than cos-play, there are some armed and dangerous(looking) bad hombres gathering there.

    Hoods, camo and the black ninja anti-fa get-ups are plentiful.

    Just saw a thing about Einstein (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 11:31:20 AM EST
    It's 1939 folks.  Hostility to intellectualism, hostility to norms.  It's up to us.  Are we up to it?

    I'm really not convinced we are.


    Book burnings (none / 0) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:44:44 PM EST
    By winter.

    Wanna bet?


    I see the Neo Nazis (5.00 / 5) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 09:38:41 AM EST
    are out in full display last night marching in Charlottesville, VA. and apparently more are going to come marching today. Trump certainly has made the vermin rise to the top.

    There (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by FlJoe on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 09:52:11 AM EST
    appear to be at least dozens outfitted with helmets, shields and sticks, on both sides. Already been a few skirmishes, plenty of people looking for a fight.

    Well, let's (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 09:57:22 AM EST
    hope nobody gets hurt. Where are the Republicans denouncing this kind of thing?

    I think we can skip (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:08:48 PM EST
    the "neo" part, and just call them Nazis.   The loser flags of the Nazis and Confederates were waved with chants of "we won, get over it."  The Confederate flags are nothing new at such rallies, but the blatant use of the Nazi flag was startling.

    The Pier One tiki citronella torch parade was too Nurenbergish even for the "economic anxiety" mavens, and what is with that "blood and soil" bit that the Nazis ran with in the 1930s (lebenstraum..living space by expansion east into other countries/eugenics)

    Hate abounded  with their "f....g fajjots." anti-semitic and all kind of good Nazi oldies. No "Dentist's Lives Matter" placards, however. The emboldenment of this crowd may be considered as among the accomplishments of the Trump Administration.


    How come the "we won get over it" (none / 0) (#81)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:42:25 PM EST
    meme doesn't carryover to the confederate flag waving for these dummies. Duh. That's what I say every time I see one. I show them the Stars and Stripes and say "we won, get over it."

    I thought this write up was brilliant (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:45:23 AM EST
    In discussing white male infantilism in the US, but I'd take it a step farther and identify just white infantilism.

    Many white voters struggled to define what drove the white Trump vote. I struggled to understand why white female friends and family were lying to me about voting Trump. I could tell they were lying, they were stilted and embarassed but I think they'd do it again. They all do share one thing, a need to never fully grow up. Not like me at least. I'm too harsh and independent in their opinion, they don't want to be THAT KIND of woman. And if your man isn't going to grow up then you can't grow up and have that relationship work.

    White infantilism makes more sense and feels closer to the truth to me than whatever that economic anxiety thing was supposed to be about.

    I thought it was an insightful write up all the way around though right down to implicating the press in where we are now and what is now happening to the world.

    Bill Curry/Salon

    Interesting angle on it (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 01:48:26 PM EST
    I see it too especially in the south. Lots of women here still refer to 'my man' taking care of me. Not a lot of desire for independence.

    Well they can certainly have any of those prize specimens at the Citronella Putsch (thx Charlie Pierce) if they want them. I'd rather work until I drop than be supported by anyone like that.


    And now we have some idea how (5.00 / 7) (#83)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:43:35 PM EST
    Trump will respond in times of crisis, and it is not reassuring, not one little bit.

    Last night he was joking - joking - with the governor of Guam about how famous this was making him and how great this publicity will be for tourism.  Yes, because what's always the most important thing is shameless self-promotion as a means to raking in the big bucks.

    The governor is warning the people of Guam what to do in the event of a nuclear attack and the President of the United States is joking about being famous and tourism.  

    On the expulsion of 755 US diplomats from Russia, this person didn't even have the decency to acknowledge what great work is done by the diplomatic corps, often at some risk - no, he had to make a joke about it.  And even when he finally said he didn't mean it, he ended his response to the reporter with, "but we've greatly reduced our payroll," so perhaps not serious about not making the joke.

    And now, the chilling events out of Charlottesville, which the president is blaming on "many sides."  What, the many sides of the white nationalist movement?  Probably not - can't risk losing some of that base, so best to keep the condemnation so broad that he can never be accused of putting the blame where it belongs.  

    When white nationalists are prominent members of your administration, you own this.  And what you own is an act of terrorism.  Your weak condemnation isn't even lip service, no one believes that you believe it, no one thinks it will be the last time something like this happens.

    What a terrible week, what a terrible 24 hours.

    interesting (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:57:21 PM EST
    the only part of that he said twice was

    "on many sides....on many sides"


    The great majority of the alt-rightists are (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:32:37 PM EST
    violent in the message and beliefs, and many of them also in their actions.  But when they march, display symbols, etc., they are within the constitutional right of "peaceable" assembly and free speech. Even so, their preferred style is to threaten violence. The great majority of counter-demonstrators, by contrast, are non-violent (indeed, anti-violent). Unfortunately, a small minority of counter-protesters use and threaten violence against the neo-Nazis, and also try to physically deny them their First Amendment rights. This not only attracts disproportionate media attention, it also makes it all too easy to falsely set up a "both sides" narrative.

    so (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:36:01 PM EST
    when we have a government rife with white nationalists that clearly supports their goals what is your plan?  to defend their rights?

    if it is we disagree.


    Yes, I defend their rights, unapologetically (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:00:35 PM EST
    Which are my rights and your rights also and equally. If we pick and choose who can enjoy those rights, they are not "rights" at all. This has nothing to do with supporting their goals, of course. In fact, it is an essential part of the strategy to ensure that they never achieve their goals.

    i guess thats your job (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:03:06 PM EST
    its not mine.  i will oppose them in any way and every way possible.

    My "job" actually is to defend (5.00 / 2) (#109)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:38:15 PM EST
    the rights of convicted criminals. I defend civil liberties more generally as an officer of my state ACLU affiliate. I do this voluntarily, on my own time, because I believe in it deeply as an essential attribute of a free society and as a necessary condition for achieving progressive social change.

    how is that working out (none / 0) (#110)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:40:46 PM EST
    Compared to 1920, when the ACLU began (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:47:20 PM EST
    I would say it is working out very well, taking the long view. And still a long way to go.

    I might just point out also that (none / 0) (#174)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 03:18:14 PM EST
    defending the First Amendment rights of birth control (reproductive rights) campaigners, gay rights organizers, anti-war protesters, and civil rights activists were among the ACLU's early efforts on behalf of all those movements, and that freedom of speech, of assembly and of the press is part of what made their organizing and activism possible.

    I think we observe their right to speak (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 02:03:49 PM EST
    But oppose them vehemently and not give their opinions power- don't elect the people that listen to them. They've been empowered by politicians and press too cowardly too call them out. Leaving it up to protestors to take their lives in their hands to do it.

    It is not too soon, in my opinion (none / 0) (#175)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 03:21:53 PM EST
    to point out that the police in Charlottesville failed miserably at the (admittedly difficult) task of enforcing the law to protect the counter-demonstrators while respecting the (limited but important) rights of the white supremacists to demonstrate lawfully. It appears they leaned way too far in the latter direction.

    Law enforcement in Anaheim, CA similarly "failed miserably" at a Ku Klux Klan rally there in February 2016, for which the organization had duly applied for and obtained the necessary legal permits to hold at the city's Pearson Park.

    In that particular instance, the police presence that day was really much too light to protect the four dozen or so Klansmen who participated, when their rally attracted an angry mob of counter-protesters which was estimated to be at least ten times their own number.

    Emboldened by the lack of police in the immediate vicinity, that mob then set upon the Klansmen, who were roughed up rather badly. Ironically, they were saved from further harm by a Jewish rabbi and several counter-protesters from a nearly synagogue, who intervened in the melee at considerable risk to themselves, and assisted the few police officers who were there in hustling the Klansmen out of Pearson Park to safety.

    Because pre-announced KKK and Nazi rallies are literally a magnet for counter-protesters, who will often greatly outnumber the original rally-goers by considerable margins, I would argue that yesterday's bloody clash and resultant tragedy was otherwise readily avoidable, were it not for the inexplicable and conspicuous failure of the police to keep the crowds separated.

    Given the obvious volatility inherent in such situations, it's imperative that law enforcement personnel establish a robust presence and defensive perimeter at these otherwise legally permissible events, and take whatever other steps are necessary to keep both sides out of close proximity to one another.

    However repugnant police officers might find the act of protecting the First Amendment rights of right-wing extremist groups, their sworn duty to ensure public safety requires them to minimize to the extent possible any opportunities at these events for physical clashes to occur.

    While John Landis's 1980 comedy "The Blues Brothers" may have played off the antipathy of police toward Nazis for some admittedly cheap laughs, yesterday's events were really anything but funny.



    re: The Blues Brothers (none / 0) (#182)
    by linea on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 06:07:41 PM EST
    it's going to get worse. a european group is actively exporting its ideology of violent counter-protest to the united states. they are not liberals or progressives. people need to know that.

    linea, they're not exporting anything ... (none / 0) (#185)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 07:42:02 PM EST
    ... to this country that we haven't already had in relative numbers for quite some time. Political anarchism has a significant history in the United States. After all, it was an anarchist, Leon Czolgosz, who shot and mortally wounded President William McKinley at the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo, NY on September 6, 1901. The president died of his injuries eight days later.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised (none / 0) (#193)
    by jondee on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 09:00:24 PM EST
    if there's a noxious sprinkling of COINTELPRO variety provocateurs, Terry Norman-types, and James O'Keefe weasels mixed in amongst these Black Bloc Antifa (or whatever the eff they call themselves) counterprotesters.

    It's certainly been documented as happening before. Most of us have heard of COINTELPRO, and O'Keefe has already been outed a couple of times for attempting to foment violence amongst BLM participants and at Clinton/Sanders rallies.


    i'm sorry (none / 0) (#198)
    by linea on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:42:26 PM EST
    a noxious sprinkling of COINTELPRO variety provocateurs, Terry Norman-types, and James O'Keefe weasels mixed in amongst these...

    the group you are referencing does not need 'provocateurs' as they openly call for violent action. in response to the election of trump - they are actively exporting their ideology from europe to the united states. innocent people are going to get hurt. people don't seem to understand that these are not 'liberals' or 'progressives.' you wanted to be more like europe? you got it.


    There are a lot of lost and adrift souls (none / 0) (#200)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 14, 2017 at 09:50:08 AM EST
    in this country.

    We all have the wisdom of the ages at our disposal and yet way too many here are only capable of being inspired by lurid, inflammatory internet missives and wild-eyed, flailing demagogues of one stripe or another.

    I never thought I'd ever miss the 'cults' of the sixties and seventies that used to scoop up all these folks who hunger to meld into a New movement larger than themselves.


    the elaborate (none / 0) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:07:32 PM EST
    by your definition they have right to show up to protest the lawful removal of a racist symbol with shields and helmets and guns,  fine,  we have a right to meet them with shields and helmets and guns.

    Yes, if Virginia law does not prohibit (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:22:09 PM EST
    (that is, validly prohibit) the public carrying or display of those objects, and so long as they are not used for an unlawful purpose ... bearing in mind that threatening can be unlawful. (See my other comment a moment ago.)

    Should peaceful assembly include (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by vicndabx on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:46:21 PM EST
    shields, sticks and guns?  Is threatening violence free speech?  I ask in all seriousness.

    There is no requirement that protected assembly (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:18:46 PM EST
    be "peaceful."  The First Amendment concept is "peaceable," an Eighteenth Century legal notion which means, so long as they aren't violating any valid and non-trivial criminal law. As for threatening, that has been well settled by Supreme Court decisions. However, incitement of imminent, lawless action is outside the protection of the First Amendment. As is display of a well-recognized symbol of violent intimidation, with proven intent to intimidate. Likewise, a subjectively intended and objectively genuine threat of personal violence that is not mere political hyperbole. You'd have to attach some verb/action to "shields, sticks and guns" before I can answer that part.

    Thank you Peter (none / 0) (#111)
    by vicndabx on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:43:43 PM EST
    I can't say I'm surprised that conservative Supreme Courts have ruled they way they do.

    At some point we are going to have to allow our citizens via their duly elected representatives to codify laws against hate and intimidation of fellow citizens.

    We can talk about and strive to live up to our deals or we can do something about it.


    Or we can do both (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:30:50 PM EST
    Why not?

    The decisions I cited emerged from (none / 0) (#120)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:48:56 PM EST
    the Supreme Court at its most progressive (1969) and when it was/is rather conservative (2003, 2015).

    They showed up with shields (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:49:39 PM EST
    and wearing helmets. Kinda hard to assume they are assembling peacably.

    Shields and helmets seem to me (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:50:22 PM EST
    defensive, and thus equally consistent with a fear of counter-violence as with an intent to foment violence.

    Shields and helmets are also powerful (5.00 / 3) (#135)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:06:37 PM EST
    symbols of authority, so it might be argued that they represented less an effort to defend themselves against feared counter-violence and more an effort to dominate and intimidate.

    Watching some of the video, it's hard to tell the difference, at times, between the white nationalists and law enforcement: I don't think that was coincidental.

    I absolutely understand that everyone's rights are diminished and threatened when we start choosing who gets to exercise them and who does not.

    But allowing people to exercise their rights does not absolve us of the responsibility to stand up in the face of ugliness, which the white nationalist rally in Charlottesville certainly was.  


    Nothing I said about rights (5.00 / 2) (#138)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:38:35 PM EST
    would make me disagree with this:
    But allowing people to exercise their rights does not absolve us of the responsibility to stand up in the face of ugliness, which the white nationalist rally in Charlottesville certainly was.
    I totally agree. But I strongly believe that you cannot stand up effectively to ugliness by imitating it. I am proud of the vast majority of those who turned out to confront the neo-nazis in Charlottesville. I'm sure they were non-violent in their determination to stand up and condemn evil to its face. The few who weren't do not take away from that, nor do they justify a false equivalency in condemning those whose principal message is violent and hateful.

    Trump's response to all of this is not (5.00 / 5) (#139)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:54:09 PM EST
    going to dampen the spirit and efforts of those who showed up in Charlottesville with their torches and long guns; as bad as his words were, Exhibits A, B and C for where Trump really stands on this issue are Bannon, Miller and Gorka, and as long as they remain in their jobs, whatever Trump says is just lip service.



    I will agree, at least in part. (5.00 / 3) (#141)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 12:11:05 AM EST
    "In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow countrymen, and not in mine, is the momentous issue of civil war. The government will not assail you. You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors. You have no oath registered in Heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to 'preserve, protect, and defend it.'

    "I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field, and patriot grave, to every living heart and hearth-stone, all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."
    - President Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address (March 4, 1861)

    My mother told me that when standing up for myself, I must never throw the first punch to start a fight. But she also assured me that should such a fight come at someone else's instigation, I have her permission to throw the final punch to finish it.



    Our community in suburban Philadelphia (none / 0) (#169)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 02:03:08 PM EST
    is holding a rally/vigil this evening at 7 in a neighborhood park, to stand up against racism and hate and to hold yesterday's victims in the Light. We will be there. Despite less than 24 hours' notice (via various local lists, Facebook groups, etc.) reaching out to a catchment area of just a few square miles, I would expect a crowd of hundreds. Anyone else doing this today/this evening? Where?

    Just home from our neighborhood rally (5.00 / 3) (#186)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 07:46:07 PM EST
    for "Love Wins over Hate." Easily 500 people there, on 24 hours' notice or so, organized principally by a 20-yr-old black woman who lives a few blocks from us and is an amazing local energizer. Our U.S. Congressman, State Senator ("This is my first anti-Nazi rally," he said.), State Rep, County Commissioner, and Township Commissioner all spoke, along with an equal number of local activists, mostly Black. Other local officials were there (including at least one judge I spotted, in shorts and t-shirt). Crowd probably 95% white, which reflects the ethnicity of the neighborhood. Opened with a local Jewish cantor leading the crowd in "This Land Is Your Land."

    About 200 at ours (none / 0) (#191)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 08:53:01 PM EST
    Good turnout for an event that was only organized this afternoon.  No local officials that I recognized.  Apart from a very few (5?) local activists, just a bunch of like-minded strangers who are fed up.

    Going to one near me (none / 0) (#176)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 03:57:08 PM EST
    In Asbury Park, NJ.  The ACLU National  has a page on Facebook to search for one near you, but can't link directly to it.

    ACLU People Power is co-sponsoring (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 04:03:17 PM EST
    the rallies, which it appears are principally being promoted through Indivisible. Here's a link for finding one.

    and tiki torches (none / 0) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:52:47 PM EST
    fer gods sake

    What do the torches symbolize (none / 0) (#124)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:55:27 PM EST
    to the alt-right? Not familiar with that. Is it a Klan reference? Some Nazi thing I've forgotten?  Pretty sure it's not a reference to the crowd chasing Frankenstein's monster in the 1931 film.

    No (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 07:12:17 PM EST
    It isn't

    The pictures out of Charlottesville this weekend are like black and white pictures out of the past, from German American Bund rallies, at Madison Square Garden in the 1930s.

    That means Nazi rallies. All this time later, we get them in Virginia, just without German accents.

    It actually almost funny they were to lame to make their own and just bought some at Pier One


    The use of torches in marches ... (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 09:41:44 PM EST
    ... is very Aryan, are intended to stir supporters and intimidate opponents, and conjure up images of the torchlight parades at the annual Nazi Party Congress gathering in Nuremberg in the 1930s.

    More recently, we've seen a torchlight parade in Kiev last January 1, as more than 15,000 far-right Ukrainian nationalists marched to celebrate the birthday of Stepan Bandera (1909-1959), a fervent nationalist leader from the 1930s and '40s who first ran afoul of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin.

    Unfortunately, Bandera also made common cause with Adolf Hitler during Operation Barbarossa, the German invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941. He operated under the delusion that Hitler would grant Ukraine independence. He was arrested by the Gestapo when he attempted to declare Ukraine's independence in late 1941, following the expulsion of the Red Army and occupation by the Germans.

    He was released from Gestapo custody in late 1943 as the Third Reich's fortunes turned sour on the Eastern Front, whereupon he organized the Ukrainian People's Army, a paramilitary arm which resisted the Soviet counteroffensive and further cooperated in the the ethnic cleansing of Poles and Jews in western Ukraine and Galicia. An estimated 260,000 Polish-Ukrainians and Jews (mostly women and children) were summarily slaughtered by the UPA in the 1943-44 campaign.

    Stepan Bandera escaped Stalin's clutches when Nazi Germany collapsed in 1945, but was assassinated by the KGB (cyanide poisoning) in Munich in October 1959. He is buried at Waldfriedhof Cemetery in Munich, where his grave has become something akin to a white wingbat shrine. Not surprisingly, he remains a very controversial and somewhat divisive figure in his own homeland.



    in europe (2.00 / 1) (#134)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:01:24 PM EST
    several countries have a torchlight procession on national independence day. it's quaint and traditional and has no nazi connotation.

    i expect the american neo-nazis think it is either reminiscent of the nazis (as seen in black and white newsreels) or meant to evoke european traditions.


    In Europe ... (none / 0) (#146)
    by Nemi on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 08:19:21 AM EST
    The Norwegians might have a tradition of marching peacefully with torches on National Day, but I don't know about other European countries. It seems to me that in Europe peaceful marches bearing torches have for many years now mostly been used in showing solidarity with innocent victims of different kinds, most prominently solidarity with victims of terror and as a protest against the perpetrators. Just like so many other kinds of light, electric as well as candles, are used as show of mourning and solidarity.

    In Aspen (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by fishcamp on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 01:09:09 PM EST
    We had a torch light parade every Thursday night down the mountain.  They gave us a free dinner for doing it.  Back in the 60's it was big fun, but the road flare torches usually burned holes in our ski pants.

    Triggered a lot of people (5.00 / 2) (#137)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:37:33 PM EST
    We were waiting for the cross to show up that they'd light.

    Yes, on many sides, (5.00 / 4) (#97)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:45:03 PM EST
    many sides.   A lethal Dodge charger on one side and Shakespeare in the Park on the other.  Both sides do it.

    Trump had (5.00 / 9) (#101)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:56:13 PM EST
    harsher words for Mitch McConnell than he did for the Nazis.

    The Great Coward Trump... (5.00 / 7) (#86)
    by desertswine on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:17:56 PM EST
    refused to condemn White nationalism, Racism, Nazis, the Alt-Right, or the KKK.  

    He wants us all (none / 0) (#103)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:01:17 PM EST
    to unite, lock elbows and sing Edelweiss together: you, me, the grand dragon, and the gruppenfuhrers.

    i cant laugh about it anymore dan (5.00 / 5) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:16:54 PM EST
    we just saw a bunch of nazis riot because of the removal of a racist symbol, drive a car into a crowd killing one and injuring 35 and or "president" whines and mewls about both sides.

    this is no longer remotely funny.

    i believe our country and our very way of life is on the line.

    i know everyone hates nazi analogies but they are seriously becoming impossible to avoid.

    please, everyone,even if you think you know, go back and read about how it started.

    the governor is currently explaining to the "president" how to respond.


    Hey Capt (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 05:51:56 PM EST
    This is all the stuff I was shouting from the rooftops months ago. I was poopooed for the references to the early days of nazi Germany. Accused of hyperbole. I said Drumpf would embolden these people and they would come out of the woodwork. This is only the beginning. There will be more Charlottesvilles and much more violence. I predict gun fire will soon follow. You know, protecting 2nd amendment rights and all.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:19:53 PM EST
    if I was one of the ones that pooh poohed you I certainly do apologize. I have to say though I knew it was going to be bad, very bad, but I guess I had no idea just how bad it was going to be. Every day is worse than what I imagined.

    I wish it was hyperbole. (5.00 / 3) (#177)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 04:02:43 PM EST
    I really did. Unfortunately, here and in most of America, the mention of nazi brings thoughts of war and death camps. That was not my allusion. The nazis were a political party first, that came to power in the early 30s in Germany. That's the nazis I referenced. It was their road to power and how they came to be and came to power in their time. Events in the US today eerily resemble that rise to power. Like it or not comparing the current occupant of 1600 PA Ave and parts of the GOP is valid. And it continues. The rallies, the propaganda, the "big lie," blaming others for all our problems. Making villains of the "other". Replace Jew with Muslim, Gypsy with Mexican, Communist with Democrat. Those are the "bad guys" according to Hitler and now according to Drumpf. The consolidation of power, the dismissing of all the previous ambassadors and US attorneys. Then not filling those positions. This centralizes power to Drumpf. It is exactly what happened it Germany in 1933-34. It is  It is a more than a fair comparison and parallel. Getting your panties in a wad over "nazi" is just putting your hand over your ears and shouting "LALALALALALALA" like a two year old.

    I agree with Peter G, that the rightists have the right under our constitution to protest and assemble. The government cannot squash their speech. But, I also agree with Howdy. We (the left, free thinking people, progressives) have the right and to me, a duty, to confront them and challenge them. And stop them. They are a clear danger to our freedom and future.


    I've always been of the mind that ... (none / 0) (#183)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 07:11:09 PM EST
    ... Nazi analogies are almost always inappropriate, since the horror show of Nazi rule in Germany (1934-45) has very few if any real historical parallels. I still feel that we should be very judicious in our invocation of such hyperbolic comparisonse.

    But as you correctly noted, the National Socialists' path to political power and their subsequent consolidation of control in 1933-34 Germany were actually quite conventional. And I would further add that this particular playbook is one that's also been followed by many demagogic organizations across the world, throughout the modern history of revolutionary and reactionary political movements.

    And in that respect, we ought to recognize that just as it was with Donald Trump and the self-styled American alt.-right in our own country last November, it was voters themselves who were primarily responsible for facilitating the Nazis' rise to the top of the political food chain in the Weimar Republic. Like Trump and his presidency, Adolf Hitler never became Chancellor through a majority vote, but instead garnered a political plurality that elevated him to the top.

    And it was also Germany's economic elite who similarly -- and foolishly -- thought, as do our own elite with Trump, that they could control Adolf Hitler and channel his party's political energy toward their own shortsighted ends, with little or no regard for the potentially adverse consequences of just such an unholy alliance.

    In both instances, the voters and economic crème de la crème struck a Faustian bargain with a group of very bad and untrustworthy actors, one which most all Germans eventually came to very dearly and bitterly regret, since it literally led to their country's ultimate destruction and dissolution at the hands of its enemies.



    A not insignificant (none / 0) (#196)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 10:40:53 PM EST
    component in Hitler's rise to power was the mobilization of criminal elements into street thugs.  Armed SA literally beat up and intimidated those who opposed the fascist movement.

    As Hitler gained and consolidated power ... (none / 0) (#199)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Aug 14, 2017 at 06:18:21 AM EST
    ... as Chancellor in anticipation of the death of 86-year-old President Paul von Hindenburg, he turned violently on the SA Brownshirts themselves in an event known today as "The Night of the Long Knives."

    Hitler always considered the SA as nothing more than the party's political muscle, and not a paramilitary arm like the Heinrich Himmler's SS. But by the spring of 1934, the overall rowdiness and thuggish excesses committed by the Brownshirts in Hitler's name had reached a point where the SA had become a potential political liability to him. That April, President Hindenburg and his senior generals threatened Hitler with a declaration of martial law if he didn't do something to curb the SA's lawlessness.

    The purge actually took place over the course of three days (June 30-July 2, 1934) and when it was over, at least 85 of Hitler's Nazi Party compatriots -- including SA head Ernst Röhm -- were dead, having been summarily executed by Himmler's SS. But the overall death toll was likely in the hundreds, as perceived opponents of the Nazi regime such as former German Chancellor Kurt von Schleicher were also eliminated.

    President Hindenburg died of natural causes only four weeks later on August 2, 1934. The day before, Hitler had arranged for the presidential cabinet to unilaterally promulgate a "Law Concerning the Highest State Office of the Reich," which stated that upon Hindenburg's death, the Office of President would be abolished and its powers transferred to the Office of the Chancellor.

    With Hindenburg's passing, Hitler thus became head of state as well as head of government, and was formally proclaimed accordingly by the cabinet as Führer und Reichskanzler (Leader and Chancellor). His ascension to the pinnacle of power was just about complete, save for a few details which were quickly cleared up. By the end of the year, Hitler's position was affirmed by a 90% vote in a nationwide plebiscite, and all political parties in Germany except for the National Socialists were abolished and outlawed.



    yeah (none / 0) (#114)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:01:11 PM EST
    i remember.  i dont remember if i poopooed you but i might have.  it is rather unbelievable.  but its happening.  right under our noses.
    i mentioned in another comment the NOVA show about Einstein.  there was just a small part on the nazi backlash against intellectualism but it really rung a bell.  right under our noses its happening.

    and while i get the legalese and i even understand its necessity and appreciate those who live by it.  i begin to fear it will not save us.  im quite sure there were lots of germans who thought their system of laws would save them. that was used against them.  and its being used against us.  i believe that.

    as for the bit about this being a "small isolated marginalized group" i call bullsh!t.  i say get out into the actual country.  they are neither small or marginalized.  they are working at the highest levels of our government.  i urge anyone who has not to read the link upthread  about the NSC memo.  it explains just how intrenched they are in absolutely chilling detail.


    I understand. (none / 0) (#122)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:51:16 PM EST
    Irony is the way I am able to cope with this unfolding (unfolded) tragedy.  Not intended to be funny, of the ha ha variety.

    Of course (5.00 / 2) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 07:17:15 PM EST
    All for gallows humor.   They can take anything but my sense of humor is the best philosophy

    When Trump is perp walked out of that dump in cuffs we will all have a good laugh at the expense of the f$cking nazis


    I think they'll go after him on two fronts (5.00 / 4) (#144)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 08:12:54 AM EST
    At once around the end of the year. They need to. I never thought fighting one front would ever take him down. That energizes him. The person I know with NPD can't take on more than one self created controversy challenge at a time though. If both situitions become intense they do finally crumble. They don't really learn lessons but they do cease. They will try to find fresh pastures then.

    The Mueller investigation will of course at the very least begin threatening people around him and I think his illness will cause him to say and do even more horrible things.

    "His generals" will collect specific evidence for the 25th amendment. I think his handling of the NK thang and then telling the world he has military options for Venezuela has likely scared the holy hell out of McMaster, Kelly, and Mattis. At least one of them is already documenting specific times, places, and emotions/words of Trump. I really can't imagine what he says and does behind closed doors. We the unwashed are seeing him in his finest moments. We are seeing the sanest Trump.

    If it happens, "the generals" have to aid in removing him, this will be a tough blow to the belief system and good order that they in their careers and our forces rely on heavily. I don't think they will have a choice though at some point. And Bannon, Miller, Javanka, everyone else...they don't care if he's nuts. They don't care how much he damages the nation and the world as long as they get their cut.

    In any case, if they do end up having to aid in removing this President they will fulfill the job Democrats were giving two of them during their confirmations. We expected them to babysit this insanity.

    Hopefully just a 25th ammendment threat will bring Trump to stepping down.


    In case you didn't know (5.00 / 7) (#119)
    by vicndabx on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:39:03 PM EST

    The Trump administration wants to revamp and rename a U.S. government program designed to counter all violent ideologies so that it focuses solely on Islamist extremism, five people briefed on the matter told Reuters.

    The program, "Countering Violent Extremism," or CVE, would be changed to "Countering Islamic Extremism" or "Countering Radical Islamic Extremism," the sources said, and would no longer target groups such as white supremacists who have also carried out bombings and shootings in the United States.

    Something's going on here folks.

    From tonight's L.A. Times editorial: (5.00 / 5) (#136)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:27:43 PM EST
    "That young angry white men would march with torches and chant Nazi slogans is chilling, jarring and indefensible. Some have sought to equate that display with the leftist protesters who engaged in running street brawls with the white nationalists, but that is to grossly confuse messages, and motives. When the nationalists took to the streets, they did so as an act of hatred and of history. They should not have been confronted with violence -- peaceful expressions of repugnant views must be tolerated lest we became a nation of mobs and thugs. But those who give vent to the darkest corners of the human heart are uniquely vile.

    "We as a nation are at a dangerous place in our politics. With institutions questioned, delegitimized and, in the case of the federal government, eroded from within, we must recognize that the strength of a democratic society rests in its ability to forge common ground, to have common faith in each other and to isolate those who would seek to shred the national fabric. Given the gaspingly inadequate response by Trump, we must look elsewhere for leadership that can help navigate such rocky waters.

    "But most of all, we must look within."


    Re charging the alleged perp. (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 12:07:22 AM EST
    in the Charlottesville deaths.  Law enforcement arrested him on 2nd degree murder.  However, in my opinion, charging murder in the first degree would be a proper exercise of the prosecutor's discretion.

    A quick warrant charging Murder2 (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 01:54:32 PM EST
    was the best way to get that a-hole arrested ASAP. Believe me, that won't be the only charge he faces when he gets to court on Monday. Nineteen or more counts of aggravated assault (or perhaps assault with a deadly weapon), for starters. Murder1 is by no means out of the question. Other charges depend on how various Virginia statutes read, with which I am not familiar. At first look, I don't think the case comes within either of the principal federal hate crimes provisions, not that I would expect this Justice Department to be interested anyway.

    virginia state statutes (none / 0) (#154)
    by linea on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:04:20 AM EST
    § 18.2-32
    First and second degree murder defined; punishment

    Murder, other than capital murder, by poison, lying in wait, imprisonment, starving, or by any willful, deliberate, and premeditated killing, or in the commission of, or attempt to commit, arson, rape, forcible sodomy, inanimate or animate object sexual penetration, robbery, burglary or abduction, except as provided in § 18.2-31, is murder of the first degree, punishable as a Class 2 felony. All murder other than capital murder and murder in the first degree is murder of the second degree and is punishable by confinement in a state correctional facility for not less than five nor more than forty years.

    § 18.2-33
    Felony homicide defined; punishment

    The killing of one accidentally, contrary to the intention of the parties, while in the prosecution of some felonious act other than those specified in §§ 18.2-31 and 18.2-32, is murder of the second degree and is punishable by confinement in a state correctional facility for not less than five years nor more than forty years


    Absent evidence of specific intent to kill (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 01:05:27 PM EST
    driving a car into a crowd is a law-school crim law teacher's classic paradigm example of second degree murder. Outrageously reckless conduct intended to cause or manifestly risking serious injury, but not specifically intended to cause death, where the death of one or more victims does result. In technical terms, "with malice but without premeditation."

    On a much lighter note (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 10:44:58 AM EST
    I am not the target audience for this product, I have never purchased it and probably never will.

    But this is one of the best TV ads ever made, featuring original music by then 12 y.o. Grace VanderWaal (she's 13 now).  It actually stands alone as a wonderful video, even though it was made to sell a product.

    The "product" it sells the most of is emotion.

    that really was amazing (none / 0) (#151)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:00:07 AM EST
    for the record i have several friends with long IMDB lists who are working on commercials.

    they are good.



    the thing is (none / 0) (#156)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:14:31 AM EST
    the film industry does not like 60+
    i was a bit older than most of my coworkers so i was eased out sooner but now its happening to all my friends.

    there are two places for them to go.  commercials and games.  i did games.  but the gamer world is not for many boomers.


    btw (none / 0) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:26:24 AM EST
    i am aware there are many 60+ individuals prospering in the film industry.

    im talking about the digital effects industry.  the one where ever year a new wave of educated applicants washes over HR departments who will work for nothing.


    it made me cry (none / 0) (#155)
    by linea on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:08:39 AM EST
    The public radio station at the U. of Penn. (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 08:53:37 PM EST
    has a folk music show on Sunday nights. DJ just played Woody Guthrie with Sonny Terry singing, "All You Fascists Bound to Lose." And while we're at it, here's Woody singing "Tear the Fascists Down" (warning: serious case of "Popular Front" lyrics)

    Thank you Peter (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:23:09 PM EST
    I sent my husband links. He manages my music :) He's very auditory. I can't keep up with how important music is to him and all the new tech and all that that entails.

    I did get these crazy outdoor lights though that have speakers interspersed in the strand. We hung 2 strand in a tree that hangs over the deck and we call it the singing tree. It uses bluetooth.

    And I inherited my father's Bose wave. Not letting me down, my husband got me the cables that allow me to attach my device to that too.

    It's going to be a long Presidency. I need all the ghosts of my forebearers around me.


    My man Sonny Terry told (5.00 / 3) (#201)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 14, 2017 at 10:25:41 AM EST
    my all time favorite Woody Guthrie story: Woody, Sonny, and Brownie McGhee were playing outside a union hall somewhere and were invited into the dining area to eat with the stipulation that Sonny and Brownie would only be allowed to eat if they sat off by themselves at a table in the far corner of the room. Whereupon, according to Sonny, Woody went into the dining hall and turned over every table; plates and food and silverware and all, saying "now nobody's gonna eat."

    They don't make too many like that anymore.


    Chilling video of police shooting (2.00 / 1) (#4)
    by McBain on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 06:03:40 PM EST
    This video was captured by officer Quincy Smith's glasses camera.

    Solicitor Duffie Stone announced Wednesday that a jury found 29-year-old Malcolm Orr of Estill guilty of attempted murder and possessing a weapon in a violent crime. Orr received the maximum sentence for each charge.

    It's amazing how fast Orr was able to get off several shots.  This is why police get nervous when people don't comply.  This is why Officer Shelby shot Terence Cutcher.  This is why Officer Yanez shot Philando Castille. This is also why I'm not a big fan of tasers.  

    Each case and incident is different. (5.00 / 5) (#12)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 08:35:10 PM EST
    Your ham-handed attempt to use this particular verdict as vindication for the fates suffered by Terence Cutcher and Philando Castile at the hands of paranoid police officers in those other two incidents is both nonsensical and appalling.

    Cutcher was unarmed and had his hands raised in the air when he was shot by Officer Shelby, and Castile had disclosed to Officer Yanez his lawful possession of a firearm. The idea that you would even deign to compare those two deceased and innocent men with a guy who was just convicted of attempted murder for having clearly opened fire on a police officer -- well, that says more about you and your mindset, than it does about Cutcher and Castile.



    Wrong again Donald (2.00 / 1) (#13)
    by McBain on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 08:55:56 PM EST
    Shelby and Yanez were found not guilty. They don't need vindication.  

    The video linked above clearly shows how fast someone can pull a hidden weapon and fire multiple shots. As I said, this is why cops get nervous when people don't comply.  They don't know if they have a weapon or not.  You can easily see how taking too much time to asses the situation can result in the loss of innocent life.

    This cop was in an impossible situation.  Perhaps he should have fired his taser, I don't know.  I don't like the unreliability of tasers. Fortunately, officer Smith survived.  



    Reading comprehension is obviously (5.00 / 6) (#19)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 10:35:16 PM EST
    not your strong suit. Donald said NOTHING about vindication for Shelby and Yanez. Rather he said vindication for the FATES of Castille and Crutcher. I shake my head in disbelief every time you fall over yourself making excuses for cops who kill unarmed citizens. Can't wait to read what drvel you come up with to justify the murder of the Australian woman in Minnesota.

    i'm sorry (none / 0) (#16)
    by linea on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 09:35:14 PM EST
    but i disagree with what i feel is a mischaracterization of the cutcher-shelby case. the jury members heard the entire body of evidence and no returned no conviction on any charges.

    officer betty shelby was forced to shoot a man high on both PCP and TCP (tenocyclidine) - a psychostimulant and hallucinogen more potent than PCP - because he was refusing lawfull orders, returned to his car, and reached in to his car through the window.

    officer betty shelby was upset by the incident and distraught that she was forced to shoot a man. her distress over the shooting was used against her (in my opinion) by the district attorney because she is a woman.

    i followed that case. every bit of it.

    Why Cops Don't Let Suspects Return To Their Vehicles: The Murder of Police Officer Kyle Dinkheller


    Juries aren't perfect (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 08:08:56 AM EST
    officer betty shelby was upset by the incident and distraught that she was forced to shoot a man. her distress over the shooting was used against her (in my opinion) by the district attorney because she is a woman.

    ... and specious, evidence-free smears and tinfoil, sexist conspiracy theories aren't justified simply by adding the words "in my opinion".


    First of all, even if Terence Cutcher was high at the time, being stoned is no justification for receiving a summary death sentence at the hands of the police. Shelby's defense counsel also noted that the deceased had a criminal record, and had recently served a four-year sentence in prison. Again, that's no justification for shooting him.

    Further, Cutcher wasn't suspected of any crime at the time, but had been the driver of a vehicle that was stalled on the road for whatever reason. So why was Officer Betty Shelby's gun even drawn on him in the first place? Even then, Cutcher was clearly unarmed, his hands were raised and he was walking away from her, so he obviously presented no real or immediate threat to her safety, only a self-perceived one from her perspective.

    Finally, the police investigation showed that the driver's side window on Cutcher's SUV was rolled up. So he couldn't possibly have been reaching into the vehicle as Shelby had claimed and you further stated, even if he had wanted to do so. Shelby should've ascertained that before firing on him and killing him.

    There's a good reason why the Tulsa County District Attorney's office brought felony manslaughter charges against Betty Shelby, and why the Tulsa Police Dept. compelled her resignation from the force even after her subsequent acquittal at trial. And that reason wasn't her gender, but rather the conclusion of her superiors that she was grossly negligent in the performance of her duties and thus unfit for service.

    Terence Cutcher's death was entirely unnecessary. We need to both expect and demand better from our law enforcement officers. And if that means increased requirements and enhanced qualifications for prospective applicants, and the provision of better training for those who are accepted, then so be it.



    Police don't know if someone is armed (2.00 / 1) (#61)
    by McBain on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 01:54:41 PM EST
    until they frisk them. Shelby and Tulsa PD didn't know if Crutcher had a weapon or what his intentions were before he was shot.  He wasn't obeying police commands and it cost him his life.  

    There's a good reason why the Tulsa County District Attorney's office brought felony manslaughter charges against Betty Shelby

    The reason was political. Charges were filed before a complete investigation. The jury did the right thing when they returned a not guilty verdict.  

    I feel like Will Ferrell as Alex Trebek in the old SNL Celebrity Jeopardy skits.  I keep hoping some of you will come around start using common sense but get let down every time.  


    And you'll continue to be ... (5.00 / 5) (#62)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:04:25 PM EST
    ... "let down", not because everyone else is failing to use "common sense", but because you are.

    Refusing a police command is not a summary execution offense.  Charges were filed because they were appropriate.  The fact that a jury voted to acquit doesn't mean what you claim.  It simply proves what everyone already knows - it is extremely difficult to convict a police officer.  Your tinfoil claim that the charges were political is laughable.


    It's no use arguing with someone like that. (5.00 / 5) (#77)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:16:38 PM EST
    Anyone who seldom misses an opportunity to dance on the graves of Terence Cutcher, Philando Castile, Sandra Bland and Freddie Gray, and who thinks the white officer who assaulted a teenaged black girl at a pool party in McKinney, TX and threatened other teenaged guests with a firearm was justified in his actions (never mind that he's since been fired for the incident), clearly has demonstrable issues regarding people of color.

    It can't be passed off as just a coincidence on McBain's part that every single one of the victims in these cases of police brutality was an African-American, and yet somehow they're all entirely to blame for their own misfortunes and fates.

    Sorry, but after watching what's been happening in Charlottesville, VA this weekend, and Trump's pathetically weak response to the violence that's being perpetrated by one of his key political constituencies in HIS name, I'm plumb all out of fcks to give my own interactions with white wingbats. We ought to have zero tolerance for their bullschitt.

    There's nothing "common sense" about this sort of irrational bigotry presently being visited upon members of our country's minority communities. The only difference here is that white nationalists in Charlottesville and elsewhere tend to not cloak their rhetoric in the dog whistles of "law and order" and "cultural anxiety," like some people we know.



    The people I have problems with (none / 0) (#93)
    by McBain on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:33:39 PM EST
    are those who rush to judgement and base their opinions on politics and emotion.  It's a recipe for disaster.

    Now you're back to playing the race card after your arguments were proven false. All that's left is your "I'm going to take my ball and go home" post.

    The video I linked should have been a wake up call to many in here but I guess nothing gets through the blinders.  


    That's easy enough (5.00 / 3) (#128)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 07:21:28 PM EST
    The people I have problems with are those who rush to judgement and base their opinions on politics and emotion.  It's a recipe for disaster.

    Just stop doing it.


    Life is cheap (5.00 / 5) (#96)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:38:39 PM EST
    Police don't know if someone is armed until they frisk them.

    Why don't they frisk old white ladies driving BMWs, who get pulled over for an unsafe lane change?  They are just as capable of being armed sociopaths as large young Black men, aren't they?

    That pesky ol' Constitution says you can't just frisk a person for being Black, although as we know the Constitution has not been much of a deterrent in that regard.

    You are aware that the SCOTUS decided in Terry v. Ohio 1968 that a "frisk" of a person stopped for a traffic violation must be based on "specific and articulable facts" that indicate that the subject is armed, and not merely upon an officer's hunch, e.g., "He was BLACK!".

    Having a vehicle breakdown does not create "reasonable suspicion" that the driver is an armed, violent criminal.  QED  (c.f. "Old white ladies" above.)

    He wasn't obeying police commands and it cost him his life.  

    Constitution?  What's that?  He was BLACK!

    Are you of the opinion then that a police officer has the right to execute a person on the street, without a trial, in the absence of personal danger to the officer, for a crime that the victim must be assumed innocent of until convicted in a court of law?

    Just so we're clear, because your quoted statement seems to imply exactly that.


    we can have different opinions (none / 0) (#82)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:42:52 PM EST
    on this one case.

    i'll concede that i did not closely follow any of the other recent police shootings so if you tell me that they were criminal or reckless i'll accept that.

    but i did closely follow the police officer bettly shelby case. in this one particular case, much of what you wrote is factually incorrect. i understand the information you posted was distributed in the media; but the facts presented at trial were different.

    a woman called the police and reported cutcher's bizzare behavior and said that she thought he was on drugs. officer betty shelby is a drug recognition expert and cutcher was clearly high/intoxicated. even without crutcher's arrests warrants he would have been detained and arrested for DUI even before the PCP was found in his car.

    letter from the jury forman:

    On the Matter of the Open Window:
    It is clear to the Jury after intensely studying the video, still photos, and testimony that the windows to the SUV driven by Terrance Crutcher that evening were open and that the Jury believes from said evidence that Terrance Crutcher did in fact reach into the window, disobeying the instructions of the police officers on location.

    Nobody is disputing that Officer Shelby ... (none / 0) (#118)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:33:32 PM EST
    ... and her fellow officers on the scene had probable cause to investigate Terence Crutcher's erratic behavior and even arrest him for negligent driving and DUI, if nothing else. That's not the point here.

    The use of lethal force in a given situation should ALWAYS be an officer's last resort, and not one of his or her first options. And in that regard, Shelby failed rather spectacularly. That's why she was initially indicted, and that's why she ultimately lost her job. The situation likely escalated all too quickly because Crutcher was racially profiled as "a bad dude." (And those are a Tulsa police officer's words, not mine.)

    And per this still photo from a Tulsa PD video that was being recorded contemporaneously to the incident, the SUV's driver's side window looks to be not only rolled up, but also smeared with Crutcher's blood, as is the door itself. There appears to be a pool of blood on the asphalt immediately below. Here it is again, enlarged. You can also see the blood on the window in the original video.

    What that particular juror was looking at, I haven't a clue.


    i know (none / 0) (#125)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 07:01:16 PM EST
    i saw that too. that still-image was widely circulated before the trial.

    however, the faulty interpretation of that still-image has been repeatedly debunked. i followed the trial very closely. many things that were initially reported in the media turned out to be false assumptions or incorrect.

    all the persons at the scene testified that the window was open, the persons impounding the care testified that the window was open, the jury reviewed all the evidence - the videos, the photographs, the testimony - and concluded that the window was open.

    the jury foreman, writing on behalf of the jury, felt he needed to clarify the misinformation on the window:

    On the Matter of the Open Window:
    It is clear to the Jury after intensely studying the video, still photos, and testimony that the windows to the SUV driven by Terrance Crutcher that evening were open and that the Jury believes from said evidence that Terrance Crutcher did in fact reach into the window, disobeying the instructions of the police officers on location.

    It's not a "faulty interpretation" ... (5.00 / 1) (#153)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:00:57 AM EST
    ... that's been "repeatedly debunked." Watch the video I linked above, linea, specifically between 2:12-2:18. Look at the SUV windows on the driver's side as the helicopter passes, and you can see reflections of ambient light in them. Upholstered car seats do not reflect light. Those windows were up, not down.

    Further, the only people at the crime scene, other than the deceased himself, were Tulsa PD personnel. Did it ever occur to you that police officers are fully capable of altering evidence at a crime scene, particularly to protect their own? That's happened time and again throughout the history of law enforcement. An entire division of the Los Angeles Police Dept. was eventually abolished back in 2000, in large part because of that widespread practice.

    Finally, the probable cause affidavit filed in Officer Shelby's first-degree manslaughter case indicates that she said she shot Terence Crutcher after he reached into the window. But investigators didn't indicate in their own reports whether the window was down. Also, the affidavit notes that Shelby had cleared (checked) the front driver's side before Crutcher approached her. So, she would / should have already known that there was no weapon there. So, no, I do not take Officer Shelby & Co. at their word about the SUV window.

    What I think happened here was that when Crutcher was tasered for a second time by backup Officer Tyler Turnbough, the first attempt apparently being ineffectual, his body jerked. That movement likely startled Shelby, who immediately fired her weapon once, hitting Crutcher in the upper right chest and killing him. The video footage from the police helicopter's camera shows Crutcher's right hand still in the air, and the blood spatter on the SUV door at the scene is consistent with that scenario.

    It all went down in a matter of mere seconds, and I don't believe that Officer Shelby intentionally shot Terence Crutcher on purpose. While she probably could've done more to ease tensions in the confrontation, she appears to have generally acted on training up to the point when she discharged her weapon. But afterward, she compounded her problem with her own inconsistencies in her subsequent statements. And that's what likely led to her indictment.



    also, she didnt get fired (none / 0) (#129)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 07:23:02 PM EST
    or "lose her job" or "told to resign."

    she was re-instated by the police department but placed on non-patrol duty. i dont have a problem with that. she later voluntarily resigned because she didnt like sitting behind a desk. my interest in this case was driven by what i felt to be sexist attitudes toward her emotional reaction after the incident. that's why i followed it so closely.

    "Since being reinstated, I have found that sitting behind a desk, isolated from all my fellow officers and the citizens of Tulsa, is just not for me," Betty Shelby said in a statement released by her union, the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 93

    You should move to Tulsa (5.00 / 3) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 07:38:11 PM EST
    I'm sure you would like it.

    why? (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 09:02:44 PM EST
    i live in the trendy gay/hipster part of seattle. the police are on bicycles and they are friendly and professional. seattle is progessive. my elected councilmember is socialist-alternative and most all my friends supported bernie. i have a car but i hate driving so i take the light-rail to work. why would i ever leave seattle?

    linea: "also, she didn't get fired or 'lose her job' or 'told to resign.' she was re-instated by the police department but placed on non-patrol duty. i dont have a problem with that."

    It's akin to a career military officer being passed over for promotion. The Tulsa PD management made it perfectly clear to Shelby that they considered her inherently unfit for the job. Having been required (likely by union contract) to reinstate her following her acquittal, they assigned her to a benign post where she could do little or no harm, and had no hope of advancement.

    In American vernacular, that's called "take a hint" or "get a clue."


    ok then (none / 0) (#194)
    by linea on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 09:03:22 PM EST
    That's a distinction without a difference, linea. (#148)

    it's sunday, i've gone to the gym, to the grocery store, cleaned the apartment, and now i'm drinking wine. let me tell you how i really feel...

    [this is just me raging] if a male police shot a guy high on pcp who was refusing orders and reached inside his car; all the other male police would high-five him, they would buy him beers and scotch at the local 'cop bar' and slap him on the back. there would not have been a trial, and the chief of police would pin a ' World War II Victory Medal' on him - or whatever army-surplus ribbon the police department is recycling. i just feel she was treated unfailrly.


    The advantage of wine (none / 0) (#195)
    by Yman on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 09:31:41 PM EST
    ... is that it allows one to dream up all kinds of specious claims of imaginary sexism and alternative realities without the slightest bit of facts or evidence, no matter how divorced from reality they may be.

    given the fact (none / 0) (#21)
    by linea on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 11:35:15 PM EST
    given the fact that the u.s. is legally awash in guns and often seems like the OK CORRAL; police are sometimes required to react like gunslingers.

    OBVIOUSLY there are times when police are criminal or reckless. many police pocedures need to be reformed - i can post a dozen. there are times when police are not convicted of a crime but clearly that person should never have been a police.

    it is my conviction however. based on all the evidence presented at trial, that the shelby case isnt one of those cases.

    The jury foreman's letter released after the trial said the shooting was "unfortunate and tragic, but justifiable due to the actions of the subject."

    "The jury concluded that any officer put in that situation at that exact moment and regardless of the skin color, gender or size of the suspect, would have performed the same way, which is in accordance with their law enforcement training," wrote the foreman, who was not identified by name.

    each case and incident is different (none / 0) (#22)
    by linea on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 11:54:27 PM EST
    im not a pro-police ideologue. even within the context of people legaly walking around with loaded guns in their pockets; i could list needed reforms.

    in my opinion, the Castile-Yanez incident is a perfect example of not convicting of a crime someone who never should have been a police.

    The City of St. Anthony announced that it fired officer Jeronimo Yanez from the department on the day he was cleared of all counts in the killing of Philando Castile.

    Linea I like your new style (none / 0) (#142)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 04:06:37 AM EST
    of posting where you say "In my opinion." I've been trying to get commenters to do that for years. So thank you.

    Apparently "open carry" (5.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:48:07 AM EST
    ...is only legal if you are white.

    An armed Black man is a menace, armed white guy, "Go about your lawful business."


    GONE (none / 0) (#10)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 08:07:27 PM EST

    this real crime doc by the guy who did the Paradise Lost films is really good.

    I binged the first three episodes today.  Raining.

    The forth is Sat nite SPIKE

    you can probably see them on the app or website.

    It has everything.  Opiate epidemic, police corruption, missing evidence and six dead or missing addicts/prostitutes who seem to be informants.

    I'll check it out (none / 0) (#11)
    by McBain on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 08:28:52 PM EST
    I'm a big fan of the Paradise Lost films.  I also recommend Tales of the Grim Sleeper...  about a serial killer who may have killed as many as 100 women in Los Angeles but no one seemed to care because most were black prostitutes.

    I watched (none / 0) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 09:14:52 PM EST
    it last year on ID discovery. I think it was called something else back then but it took place in Chillicothe Ohio.

    When I checked up on the current status of the women last fall it would seem as of then none of the cases had been solved. The people in the town seem to think they all are linked but from what I remember the police did not seem to think so. They all did seem to have some sort of ties to opiates.


    The same case (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:19:39 AM EST
    Not the same doc.  Pretty sure this was made for SPIKE.  

    here (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 08:07:18 AM EST

    Spike Partners with Acclaimed Filmmaker Joe Berlinger for Gone: The Forgotten Women of Ohio

    Academy Award-nominated and Emmy-winning documentarian Joe Berlinger has teamed up with Spike to shed new light on a growing number of unsolved murders that have cast a dark shadow over a small Ohio town. Gone: The Forgotten Women of Ohio



    After I wrote (none / 0) (#26)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 08:30:33 AM EST
    that I went looking and yeah, what you are talking about is a different doc. The one I watched was called the Vanishing Women.

    Anyone going to watch the Perseid Meteor Shower (none / 0) (#17)
    by McBain on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 10:01:28 PM EST
    this weekend? Last year was my best viewing but I don't want to drive as far this time.  Not always easy to find somewhere away from city lights where I am.

    As far as TV goes....  just started the Gone documentary Howdy recommended.  Also been watching the Netflix series Ozark... not bad. Need to catch up on Game of Thrones and Twin Peaks.  

    Yes (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 11:26:03 AM EST
    Perseid yes, if (none / 0) (#70)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:53:21 PM EST
    the damn cloud cover will disperse.

    netflix recomendations (none / 0) (#20)
    by linea on Fri Aug 11, 2017 at 10:52:31 PM EST
    if you haven't watched them already:

    halt and catch fire
    about scout
    the great gilly hopkins
    anne with an E
    glow (i did not expect i would like this)
    natascha kampusch: the whole story
    breathe (typical french, but i still enoyed it)

    Anne with an E (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:07:00 AM EST
    was really good. Thanks for the list. Glow keeps coming up on my recommendations and so maybe I will watch it but like you I thought I wouldn't. Not much interested in women's roller derby though I used to watch it when I was like 12 years old.

    I loved GLOW. Highly recommend. (none / 0) (#172)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 02:48:41 PM EST
    It goes into the back story of wrestling, shows how they choreograph it and build the characters. I feel like I get the appeal now, even though it was never my thing.

    Heard some interviews about Okja (none / 0) (#173)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 02:55:54 PM EST
    Need to check it out.

    I've heard Ozark is good too,


    Nazis marching in Charlottesville (none / 0) (#32)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:00:18 AM EST
    Torch wielding white nationalists, KKK and neo-nazis marching in Charlottesville, VA last night, followed by a larger, planned event today.  Was just watching MSNBC interview of a local UCC minister and fighting broke out during the interview.

    Oops, declared state of emergency now (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 11:21:06 AM EST
    Black men undressing to the waist so the militias can't attempt to claim they thought they were armed.

    Thanks Trump


    If I showed up to a dirty hippy protest (none / 0) (#37)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:51:28 AM EST
    Packing fire...that gets me arrested! I've been to protests where all the signs had to be attached to cardboard tubes...no wood sticks allowed.

    These a$$hole$ are allowed to look like they're hunting Frankenstein!


    Yep - it's nuts (none / 0) (#41)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 11:34:49 AM EST
    They're openly carrying batons/clubs and spraying mace/pepper spray at the counter-demonstrators,too.  Hurray for open carry laws - what could go wrong?

    They were chanting Jews Shall Not Replace Us (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:00:25 PM EST
    Last night? What sort of fever dream do they live in?

    Hahahahaha! (none / 0) (#43)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 11:40:44 AM EST
    Here's a whole 5 minutes of Jason Kessler whining, and getting more cardio than he's had in years. But he says they aren't going anywhere. Some sort of royal they will be there all weekend.

    Jason Kessler whaaaaaaa!


    Can't get his periscope (none / 0) (#45)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 11:47:37 AM EST
    Video to link, sorry :(

    Yes and the torches (none / 0) (#65)
    by Zorba on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:19:25 PM EST
    Are tiki torches.  Where did they get them, the party store or their mom's back yard?  Really, dudes, you can't figure out how to make your own torches?
    Not to minimize this at all, people have been hurt and things seem to be escalating.  The racist, alt-right types have been released, like the Kraken, to cause mayhem.
    They were always around, they just believe that they are now being actively encouraged to let their freak flags fly.

    Charlie Pierce called it (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 02:10:29 PM EST
    The Citronella Putsch.

    I love that man.


    Charlottesville (none / 0) (#34)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:23:59 AM EST
    is the beginning of the civil war I predicted with the pretender's election. It will start with small skirmishes on the fringes. Eventually more and more groups and people will get sucked in. That's assuming we're not all nuked to oblivion before year's end.

    Can you believe the phucking (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 10:47:37 AM EST
    Militias showing up in tactical gear armed to the teeth open carrying? I'm staying in Maryland this weekend. Who knows what's going to happen.

    How do these morons (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 11:37:46 AM EST
    reconcile wearing Stars and Bars patches on one shoulder and Stars and Stripes on the other? Anyone who adorns themselves with nazi and confederate symbols is a traitor and should be treated as such.

    It's heritage (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:01:15 PM EST
    Not hate...

    Except it's hate


    If what they are carrying is illegal (5.00 / 4) (#68)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:51:47 PM EST
    they should be arrested. If they assault counter-protesters, such as with pepper spray, other than in immediate self-defense, they should be arrested. If they are making threats of violence, they can and should be arrested. Otherwise, they are exercising First Amendment rights that must be protected equally for all, no matter how hateful (or hate-filled) the demonstrators, or we don't have a democracy. No one has the right to use violence to stop them from exercising those rights either. Those who forget or deny this are just playing into the hands of the racist thugs.

    I hear you Peter (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 08:33:08 AM EST
    I am going to reiterate, if I showed up to any protest I've ever been involved in with fire, I would have been arrested. We didn't even have fire at the Crawford protest while camping in the ditch in the middle of nowhere.

    People prepared food miles away and brought it in, or you shuttled to peace house to eat.

    If I showed up with a gun, my friends wouldn't even march with me. They would probably call law enforcement to complain. And guess what? I bet law enforcement would show up to question me too.

    We have all shown up to protest, and upon request relinquished our "sticks" that signs were attached to. Sometimes someone brings a box of cardboard tubes to replace them with, sometimes you just hold your sign over your head.

    This protest was not planned/created in good faith.

    What protest have I ever, would I ever, would my fellow protesters known to the rest of us ever take pepper spray into?

    If Nazis were capable of protesting peacefully they wouldn't be Nazis. There have been a couple of peaceful Nazi marches in my lifetime, where the organizers were upfront about NO violence, NO weapons of any kind. What happened? Nobody showed up! A Nazi protest is only significant if they can kill, hurt, and scare others.


    the sky is falling? (none / 0) (#51)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:36:44 PM EST
    Charlottesville (#34)
    by Chuck0
    is the beginning of the civil war I predicted with the pretender's election.

    there will be no civil war. it's the usual hoodlums looking to start a fight. guys with nazi swastica tattoos waving the confederate flag (a southern regional oddity) and black-clad antifa waving the soviet communist flag.


    That makes me feel (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:39:52 PM EST
    So Much better

    Try reading a history book. (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:43:33 PM EST
    Put away the tablet or Iphone. Do some research on how nearly every revolution or civil war ever began. Samuel Adams was a "hoodlum."

    It's probably (none / 0) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:46:04 PM EST
    Black & white.



    Wash, rinse, repeat (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 12:53:08 PM EST
    Yeah - heard it before.  White nationalism is no big deal.  It's not a serious problem ... not like some sexists posting on 4Chan.



    yes, that is my thesis (1.00 / 2) (#67)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:27:36 PM EST
    i've never been to the american south but it clearly isn't typical of the nation as a whole.

    the small group of kkk and tattoo'd neo-nazis - protesting the removal of a statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee -  waving the "Black Cross of Southern Nationalim" and the Confederate flag are an anachronism and a localized oddity.

    4chan is the nexus for the internationaly disseminated ideology of the alt-right and the neoreactionary movements - including support for monarchism, disapproval of the 'feminine' left, blatant racism. propogation of 'scientific-sexism', and hysterical anti-women hatred.

    4chan'er dont have swastica tatoos on their necks. they are my supervisors and coworkers in silicon valley and seattle. they distribute memos in the office how women are 'biologically' stupid - that's the watered-down polite memo. it is the swamp from which Elliot Rodgers (Supreme Gentleman) and Anders Behring Breivik (Monarchist, Anti-Feminist) arose.

    Anders Behring Breivik's own account of his motivations put forward in his 1518-page manifesto entitled 2083: A European Declaration of Independence. ...

    Breivik's introduction is entirely given over to a half-baked history of political correctness, "no aspect" of which, he tells us, is "more prominent ... than feminist ideology". The PC-project is bent on "transforming a patriarchy into a matriarchy" and "intends to deny the intrinsic worth of native Christian European heterosexual males". But more than that, it has succeeded. The "feminisation of European culture" has been underway since the 1830s, and by now, men have been reduced to an "emasculate[d] ... touchy-feely subspecies".

    The antipathy to feminism - and women - threaded throughout Breivik's document is more than just incidental. The text is peppered with references to the pernicious effects of the "Sex and the City lifestyle, the propagation of sexual immorality (indexed by women's promiscuity), and the "erotic capital" women use to manipulate men. The degeneration of our civilisation is intimately linked to an epidemic of sexually transmitted disease and "emotionalism". Indeed, the danger of women's "unnatural" demand for equality is such that Breivik closes his introduction by claiming that "the fate of European civilisation depends on European men steadfastly resisting Politically Correct feminism".

    Yep - and it's laughable (5.00 / 5) (#71)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:58:36 PM EST
    The resurgence of white nationalists, neo-nazis, KKK, militias and other rightwing hate groups that - in this instance - were focused on the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue - is happening all over the country.  It's happening right near you in Washington and Oregon.  It's not limited to the south and it's not an "anachronism":

    something or someone that is not in its correct historical or chronological time, especially a thing or person that belongs to an earlier time:
    The sword is an anachronism in modern warfare.

    And now one counterprotester - who you falsely label as "antifa" - is dead.  Many others are seriously wounded.  But you - along with Trump - continue to make ridiculous, false equivalencies calling both sides "hoodlums".

    But hey ... someone wrote a memo, sooooo ...


    Why do you continue to claim (5.00 / 8) (#72)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:00:56 PM EST
    insights into American culture and at the same time admit you haven't actually experienced it? It seems most of your exposure is from watching Tv.  Or reading wikipedia. None of that is real life. In fact, there is a large number white nationalists and neo nazis in your backyard, the Pacific Northwest. I have traveled in and around every state in the US, save North Dakota and Maine. Mostly by motorcycle and 18 wheeler. Trust me, the are confederate flag wavers EVEYWHERE

    now you will probably (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:14:10 PM EST
    get a smarmy comment about your use of the language.

    followed by one explaining the american political landscape.  as described by wikipedia.


    white nationalists (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:18:22 PM EST
    in the northwest?  why that just silly

    Northwest Territorial Imperative
    The Northwest Territorial Imperative (often shortened to the Northwest Imperative[1]) is a white separatist idea popularized since the 1980s within white nationalist and white supremacist groups in the United States. According to it, adherents of these groups are encouraged to relocate to a five-state region of the Northwestern United States -- viz., Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, and Western Montana (or the western part at least to Interstate 15). Northern California, northwest Colorado, Alaska, British Columbia, Alberta, Yukon, and Northwest Territories are sometimes also included. The intent is to eventually declare the region an "Aryan" homeland.[2]

    The primary proponent of this idea was Richard Girnt Butler (1918-2004), leader of the Aryan Nations.[3] A secondary supporter was Robert Jay Mathews (1953-1984),[4] who lived in Metaline Falls, Washington and advocated further colonization of the area along with David Lane[5] who wrote a fictional short story advancing a form of the idea titled KD Rebel. The current exponent of Northwest Migration is Harold Covington (b. 1953) of the Northwest Front.[6]

    thats wikipedia


    thank you Chuck (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:09:33 PM EST
    jesus christ on a bicycle

    on a bicycle? (none / 0) (#116)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 06:28:26 PM EST
    Tee hee.....

    The driving force (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Nemi on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 07:45:33 AM EST
    behind the Norwegian right wing/ white supremacist/ nationalist/ anti-muslim/ etc. mass murderer's devastating rampage at Utøya in 2011 was hatred of the left. Represented by Social Democrats which is why he specifically went to their youth summer camp: to weaken the party/movement by killing the young ones, young Social Democrats, the up-and-coming representatives of the party. Totally indiscriminate of his victims' gender!

    FYI (5.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 01:24:28 PM EST
    The flying of confederate flags is no "southern regional oddity." There are plenty to be found in Maryland and PA. I drive past homes in Stewartstown, PA and Cecil and Harford counties, MD where the stars and bars fly prominently in the front yard. They are all on the same route I take to Port Deposit regularly.

    And now we have ... (5.00 / 5) (#64)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:10:03 PM EST
    ... several of the counter-protesters seriously injured after being run down by a car.  But please - by all means - continue to pretend it's not a big deal.  Also, continue to draw false equivalencies between the "hoodlums" - the white nationalists/KKK and the counterprotesters, who you pretend are just ("usual") "antifa" hoodlums.  Then pretend you're a victim when you get called on your BS.

    i'm againt the violence (1.00 / 3) (#69)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:52:47 PM EST
    i'm against the kkk and neo-nazis arriving ready for a fight.
    i'm against counter-protesters looking for a fight.

    i saw the Westboro Baptist Church protesting a few blocks from where i live. they were standing across the street from a gay bar shouting that gays will go to hell and they had signs. everone ignored them. there were two - just two - police officers nearby. after a while, the Church members left.


    What a crock (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:02:30 PM EST
    i'm against the kkk and neo-nazis arriving ready for a fight.
    i'm against counter-protesters looking for a fight.

    Where is your evidence that these protesters were "looking for a fight"?  I'll help you out.  

    There is none.

    You have none.

    You made it up.  Because it fits your false narrative and preconceptions.  It's the same, laughable false equivalency that Trump tried in his press conference.


    i'm not discussing this anymore (1.00 / 1) (#85)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:08:45 PM EST
    i've stated my opinion.

    there will be no civil-war. americans overwhelmingly reject the kkk and neo-nazis. they are marginalized groups properly ridiculed. with regard to demonstations and counter-demonstrations; i'm against the violence.


    I never said there would be (5.00 / 6) (#87)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:19:46 PM EST
    But whether there is or not, the white nationalist,/neo-nazi hate groups are a very serious and growing problem nationally.  To state that they're simply a small, regional group that is not a serious problem  is just ignorance.  To falsely equate the counterprotesters with these groups (as Trump also did) and call them both "hoodlums" who are "looking for a fight" is not only laughably false, but insulting.

    I am the one who predicted (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:24:41 PM EST
    Civil war. Today and months ago.

    you know what (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:25:43 PM EST
    im looking for a fight.  these freaks of nature should be met by pepper spray and rocks and bottles where ever they gather.  every time they gather.

    i asked above if we were up to the new 1939.

    today, as grim as it was, makes me think we might be.  with or without the help of our government.  and in spite of the vapors of those "opposed to violence".


    my god (5.00 / 7) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:20:49 PM EST
    have you bothered to listen to the freakin presidents remarks?
    the ones in which he refuses to name "neo nazis"?
    the ones where he blames ALL sides?
    the ones where he says we need the "cherish our history"?  while a riot is happening around the removal of a confederate racist symbol?

    thank you for NOT discussing it.
    at least there is that.


    Per the Southern Poverty Law Center, (5.00 / 6) (#89)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:21:56 PM EST
    here is a map where you can see for yourself where the hate groups are and where their hate is directed.

    The alt-right, white nationalist, neo-nazi groups have been empowered by Trump's message and the presence of some of their own in this administration; they are feeling stronger.

    You say "marginalized," many of us say "normalizing."  

    And Trump's comments today have not helped "marginalize."


    thank you (none / 0) (#94)
    by linea on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 04:34:24 PM EST
    thank you for the map Anne.

    i screwed up.

    this is one of the topics i am supposed to avoid.

    so, i cant post anymore on this topic and i apologize for the posts i did make.


    Car allegedly purposefully driven into (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 01:47:03 PM EST
    people in Charlottesville. At least one serious injury.

    I don't know (none / 0) (#66)
    by Zorba on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 02:23:29 PM EST
    What to worry about more, the resurgence of the white supremacists and neo-Nazis here, or the bombast and nuclear threats against North Korea.

    Trump is shocked (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:28:29 PM EST
    SHOCKED that white nationalists are emboldened by his white nationalism.

    Mme. Zorba, unfortunately, (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by KeysDan on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:32:34 PM EST
    the worries need not be separated.  The bombast in dealing with the North Korean threat and the emboldenment of white nationalist mentality are inter-connected.   Despite the distinct potential for miscalculation and counter-productivity from the bombast, Trump is pleased with himself and Trump's base is pleased with him.

    Wapo (none / 0) (#73)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 03:01:39 PM EST
    Reporting one dead

    Driver/suspect identified (none / 0) (#132)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 12, 2017 at 09:18:27 PM EST
    ... as James Alex Fields, Jr.  From Ohio, former army (5 months?), registered Republican.  Not much more than that, at this point.

    So he was discharged for some reason (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 08:13:56 AM EST
    just watching MTP (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 10:01:19 AM EST
    i hope Cheeto is watching.  

    now watching FTN (none / 0) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 11:00:52 AM EST

    better and better


    Trump can't bring (5.00 / 3) (#160)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 12:52:43 PM EST
    himself to call out White Supremacists and Nazis, per se. If anything, his many sides, many sides, inflames when the subject of their rally was the legal removal of a Confederate general statue and he  reminds all, inaptly to the circumstance,  to "cherish our history."

     White supremacists are among his support base, and, while many right wingers who are also part of his base would never wear one of those helmets that fit over the ears, they are likely subscribe to some of their beliefs. (they have a lot of good points, you know).

     But, it would seem that Trump would be able to readily condemn Nazis, since the country has had, not only a discussion on this matter, but also, a world war to eradicate it.

    All these WH commenters who are speaking for Trump mean nothing. Trump may well, in the next tweet, undermine whatever they say. And, that includes Ivanka. (as if it would suffice if Amy spoke out, when Jimmy Carter remained mute).


    Speaking out (5.00 / 10) (#164)
    by MO Blue on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 01:09:14 PM EST
    Not my favorite politician but his statement was the one that resonated with me the most.

    "We should call evil by its name. My brother didn't give his life fighting Hitler for Nazi ideas to go unchallenged here at home," said Hatch on Twitter.

    I lost an uncle in WWII. My father and another uncle suffered from severe PSTD all of their lives as a result of that war as well. Normalizing Nazis, the KKK and white supremacy as Trump has done is totally deplorable to me.

    Keven Drum comments on Trump also speaks for me.

    What a miserable little race-baiting piece of shit. Our country can't be rid of him soon enough.

    Have very similar (5.00 / 6) (#165)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 01:33:33 PM EST
    feelings about Senator Hatch, but his statement resonates with me as well.  It would seem that such sentiments would be expected and they stand out only because of where we are in this age of Trump and so many Republicans. Senator Hatch was also among the level-headed in his opposition to Trump's tweet intending to ban trans gendered in the military.

    P.S.  It is good to hear from you, and hope it will become a regular thing.  Hope all is well with you and family.


    Maybe this country will be able (5.00 / 4) (#167)
    by ruffian on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 01:52:59 PM EST
    to remember our low st common denominator common enemy -Nazis. It is such a basic principle of my life that we aren't even supposed to throw the word around lightly. But these are actual sieg whiling, saluting, flag carrying Nazis. If we can't all get behind throwing them out of the national discourse, we are indeed lost.

    nice to see you Mo (5.00 / 4) (#180)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 04:08:02 PM EST
    Okay. (none / 0) (#159)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 12:43:47 PM EST
    Can you give us a synopsis? I was at church this morning praying for our nation and the person that was killed. So i wasn't able to watch.

    Yes, I, too, (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 01:02:38 PM EST
    hope the Captain gives us a summary. The Sunday NYTimes goes to press early and does not have the latest.   Did catch the reporting of the HuffPost about the victim, Heather Heyer, as told by her grief-stricken mother.

     Such a tragedy..Miss Heyer sounded wonderful, just 33 years old, a paralegal who lived in Charlottsville.  Her mother said "she lived her life like her path...and it was for justice."


    universal condemnation (5.00 / 3) (#179)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 04:04:37 PM EST
    around the table in both cases.  Rich Lowery managed to get in a couple of both sides do it whines but other than that both shows were Trump bash fests.

    FTN had a vid of the mother of the guy charged with driving the fatal car that was pretty amazing.

    she says, "i just thought he was going to a rally.  i didnt know it was white nationalists!  i just thought it was a Trump rally"



    Oy (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 07:41:37 PM EST
    is correct considering Trump rally and white nationalist rally are the same thing.

    This guy was in the army. Recruiters apparently were not that selective when they picked him.


    It looks like the Army threw him out (none / 0) (#188)
    by Peter G on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 07:55:11 PM EST
    pretty fast. MT, do they still have what used to be called an uncharacterized "entry level separation," for recruits who just can't fit in or can't make it, and this becomes clear in their first six months or so?

    i don't understand it either (none / 0) (#189)
    by linea on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 08:09:52 PM EST
    Basic Combat Training for all Military Occupation Specialties (MOS) in the Army lasts 10 weeks. Infantry and Armor OSUT lasts from 14 to 16 weeks depending on your soldier's MOS.

    doesn't this suggest he completed 'basic / boot camp' and returned home before any actual military participation? isn't a minimum of two years typical?


    Yes, (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 08:15:04 PM EST
    basic combat training lasts three to four months. That I know. However if the news is right he was in the army for 5 months. So i would guess that he passed basic training but then something happened to make the army discharge him.

    what is being reported (none / 0) (#187)
    by linea on Sun Aug 13, 2017 at 07:48:33 PM EST
    A photographer said he saw Mr. Fields on Saturday with symbols of Vanguard America, a group whose manifesto declares that "a government based in the natural law must not cater to the false notion of equality." The organization denied any ties to Mr. Fields.

    Fields' mother said he told her last week that he was going to an "alt-right" rally in Virginia, but she didn't inquire further.

    james fields jr is 20 years-old and lived with his mother until five or six months ago, when he moved to his own apartment. he reportedly "kept to himself a lot."

    james fields jr 's facebook page, before being removed, identified him as a trump supporter and included a number of 4chan alt-right memes including pepe-the-frog.

    the euro news i read (i know this is not authoritative) are describing Heather Heyer as a heroine who died fighting the Confederacy, the Nazis, and the Klu Klux Klan.

    Parents of woman killed by Nazi terrorist say she had passion for justice, was destined to be 'focal point for change'

    This whole bit about trying to pursuade Cersei (none / 0) (#202)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 14, 2017 at 10:47:03 AM EST
    by showing her a white walker seems like a plot clinker to me.

    With all the brain power they have they couldn't come up with a better plan than that?

    plot clinker (none / 0) (#203)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Aug 14, 2017 at 12:17:01 PM EST
    could not disagree more.  this expedition has been planned as the highlight of the season.  i think it will be.  the web is very much abuzz with it.
     there are only 3 more episodes this season.

    8 total and 6 next season if i remember correctly.

    i begin to think more and more the person who fulfills the siblingocide prophecy will be Jamie.

    I'm sure the expedition proper (none / 0) (#204)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 14, 2017 at 03:46:47 PM EST
    is going to be interesting and exciting as hell; the plan just seems screwy to me. Like that deranged beehotch would ever change her mind about anything based on one white walker.

    Maybe I'm overthinking it.