Friday and Monday Open Thread

Bump and Update: This is now a Friday and Monday open thread. I'm really busy at work but hope to be free to read news and blog tonight.

Sonny Franzese, the oldest prisoner in the federal system has been released at age 100. He was a Colombo family underboss who was sentenced to 50 years (was paroled a few times and sent back in for new offenses.)

Here's what he looked liked then.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Rough week for CNN (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by McBain on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 08:01:30 PM EST
    First, three CNN journalists resigned after the network retracted a story about ties between  Trump and Russia.   Now an undercover video allegedly shows a CNN producer admitting the ongoing Trump/Russia story is "mostly BS"

    CNN used to be my default network.  During the Obama years I found them to be more diverse in content than the other cable news channels. Unfortunately, that has changed for the worse. Too much Trump, too much bias.  I miss the other stories and the excellent documentaries like "Blackfish".


    One story (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Yman on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 08:21:10 PM EST
    One opinion.  Much as Trump and his defenders want to use it to attack CNN and other, reputable MSM news sources while promoting wingnut websites and "alternative facts", that's all it is.

    So says James O'Keefe. (5.00 / 3) (#89)
    by Chuck0 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 10:31:23 AM EST
    That bastion of honest, fair and balanced journalism and video editing.

    laugh or cry (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 10:26:34 AM EST
    it seems to be a daily choice lately
    Attendees at a business conference in Berlin laughed and applauded on Tuesday when organizers cut off U.S. Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross' remarks.
    According to a report by Bloomberg, Ross spoke onscreen for about 20 minutes at an event hosted by German Chancellor Angela Merkel's party before organizers cut off his video feed.
    "That was the U.S. secretary of commerce, who had promised us a 10-minute statement," Werner M. Bahlsen, head of the party's economic council, told the audience, as quoted by Bloomberg. "As you saw, he spoke a bit slowly, so it took a bit longer. Now we look forward to the chancellor's speech."

    From (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by FlJoe on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 12:01:00 PM EST
    I hope there is a hell files, Trump's Good 'Christian' Lawyer Funnelled $60 Million In Charity To His Own Bank Accounts, These people have no shame.

    Michael Bond... (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by desertswine on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 06:28:41 PM EST
    i really suggest recording (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 10:55:31 AM EST
    Morning Joe tomorrow.

    it will be a 3 hour Trump roast.

    Trump claimed that Scarborough and Brzezinski courted him for an interview at Mar-a-Lago around the New Year's Eve holiday.
    "She was bleeding badly from a face-lift. I said no!" the president wrote.
    He actually said yes, according to accounts of their meeting. Trump, Scarborough and Brzezinski mingled with guests and had a private chat.
    For the record, photos from Mar-a-Lago do not show any blood or bandages on Brzezinski's face.


    awaiting (none / 0) (#102)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 11:47:03 AM EST
    Abubu's 4

    Trump does seem to have a thing (none / 0) (#103)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 12:14:03 PM EST
    about women and blood..

    Maybe it explains why Melania has a separate residence. Like some archaic societies, he thinks she should be secluded during 'the time.'

    Other natural effluents he apparently has less of a problem with.


    Why do some men feel compelled ... (4.67 / 3) (#55)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 04:07:06 PM EST
    ... to diminish and / or denigrate the accomplishments of smart and strong women? I was pondering that question as I was reading about the belated acknowledgement of actress Hedy Lamarr's profound contribution to the field of information technology as the co-inventor (with composer George Antheil) of frequency hopping, aka spread-spectrum broadcast communications technology, which has since become a key component of today's wireless systems which we use daily and really take for granted.

    Then, I noticed yesterday that retired men's tennis star John McEnroe had decided to weigh in on the remarkable career of Serena Williams, who's won 23 Grand Slam titles including this year's Australian Open, before going on maternity leave in February. Speaking to NPR's Lulu Garcia-Navarro, he said that Williams would rank "like 700" as a player on the men's circuit.

    Now, to be fair to McEnroe, who's otherwise been a huge fan of Ms. Williams as well as a champion of women's tennis and a staunch advocate for equal prize money, his remarks were rather unfairly seized upon by members of the media, who took them out of their overall context as "click bait," i.e., a means to manufacture controversy and generate the requisite amount of outrage from the usual suspects.

    But I think these two stories also show that, on the 45th anniversary of Title IX's enactment nearly 44 years after Billie Jean King whipped the gloriously middle-aged Bobby Riggs in straight sets in pro tennis's celebrated "Battle of the Sexes," we still have a pretty long way to go in the march for women's overall equality.

    As for Serena Williams, per the Washington Post's Sally Jenkins in a good article pushed off the front page of the sports section thanks to McEnroe's out-of-context remarks, she's been leveraging her celebrity as her sports most high-profile star to push for an increased presence of women as entrepreneurs and managers in the field of information technology:

    "If the benchmark is workplace equity, some comparable sameness in status and pay, the news is very bad: There are about as many women decision-makers in board rooms as there are in 'Lord of the Flies,' and people still act like it's because they haven't crossed some physical Rubicon to fully prove their merit.

    "Serena Williams is the greatest tennis player in history, and in the last year she earned about $10.5 million, which is great -- except that Novak Djokovic earned more than twice that, at $21.6 million. Why? Because tournament directors and corporate sponsors cling to the idea that because men play longer matches they are superior and entitled to more. Which makes no sense at all in an entertainment business: As McEnroe has observed, you don't pay more money for a movie ticket just because it lasts three hours.

    "It should no longer be incumbent on one or a few female athlete-activists to make these points by winning exhibition matches against inferior men. We don't need more women-deciders and equal pay because it's right or moral, but because it creates a broader talent pool, and better work. This is everyone's problem, not just Serena Williams's or Billie Jean King's. 'I get tired of everyone saying, "Thanks for what you did for women," King said. 'Everybody can be an influence.'"

    It's a topic that's certainly worth further public and private discussion.


    I met Andre Agassi (5.00 / 4) (#78)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 04:14:13 PM EST
    ...and Steffi Graf when I went to their ($22M) house to move their piano.  If I didn't know Andre was a famous athlete, I would not have guessed it from meeting him.  Not very big, not muscular.

    Steffi, on the other hand, looked the part.  She is three or four inches taller than Andre and looked like she could punch a hole in a brick wall.  Seven of the eight Wimbledon trophies on the mantel were hers.

    They had TWO courts in the back yard.  I guess they didn't play each other.

    Andre was so interested in how a couple of guys were going to move this enormous object, that we had to ask him to step back, give us a little room!


    Now that's how to tell a good story! (none / 0) (#79)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 05:40:22 PM EST
    For me tennis peaked in the early 1980s (none / 0) (#66)
    by McBain on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 10:30:11 PM EST
    when McEnroe was the best player in the world with that great serve and volley game. He won several titles in both singles and doubles matches.  I was also a fan of Chris Evert-Lloyd but the women's game didn't appeal to me as much because it was mostly a baseline game.  

    With the advancement in racket technology and athletic conditioning, men's tennis has become a somewhat boring baseline game. I'm sure many have the exact opposite opinion but I rarely watch the sport anymore.  


    McEnroe is one of a kind. (none / 0) (#70)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 12:18:47 PM EST
    Here he is in an interview a couple days ago with his wife, singer Patty Smyth. She explains that he wanted to be the lead singer in her band.
    A fair guitarist, he'd played with the best. So, soon after he and Patty married in 1997, he had a bright idea: He wanted to join her band.

    "Yeah, of course he did," said Smyth. "And he'd also want to be the lead singer in my band, okay?"

    "No, no, no," he laughed.

    Smyth, who gave up her music career for several years to care for their combined six children, finally did what all those umpires of old had so wanted to do: She told him, in effect, to shut up.

    "You get one amazing gift, like John got. You don't get two. Sorry!" she laughed. "To go from anything to a musician, it's not allowed. I don't know why, but the public does not want that, ever."

    Very funny, and great chemistry between the two of them.

    Here is what Serena said about playing men:

    "For me, men's tennis and women's tennis are completely, almost, two separate sports," Williams said. "If I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes. No, it's true. It's a completely different sport. The men are a lot faster and they serve harder, they hit harder, it's just a different game. I love to play women's tennis. I only want to play girls, because I don't want to be embarrassed."

    Lastly, while you appear to support the claim that sexism is the reason Serena is paid less than Djokovic, I think it's more than that as, for example, Maria Sharapova makes almost twice in endorsements than what Serena earns.

    Maria Sharapova, who will out-earn her by $10 million despite not having been a genuine rival to Williams for years.

    Add that Serena's "I'd lose 6-0, 6-0" (none / 0) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 12:38:20 PM EST
    comment is pretty telling in another way, as in men's tennis the match would not be over after 6-0, 6-0. She'd have (at least) one more set to play...

    Neither Williams or Sharapova (none / 0) (#72)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 12:52:13 PM EST
    would rank very high in any study of oppressed women of the world.

    Some of the women who put together their rackets and clothes might, but they wouldn't.


    Nobody is making that argument, jondee. (none / 0) (#75)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 02:39:09 PM EST
    Rather, the primary point here is to call attention to the obvious double standards by which we as a society tend to judge the respective accomplishments of men and women.

    This is particularly true in sports such as tennis, in which men like John McEnroe and Roger Federer can be blithely characterized as all-time best players in the history of the game without any respect for gender, while Martina Navratilova and Serena Williams are consigned to the category of "best female players" and nothing more. And heaven forbid, should such women of accomplishment aspire to any greater recognition and perceived worth above and beyond that.

    To the extent that such double standards are then wielded by men as effective instruments in their continued oppression of women generally, i.e., as a primary means to deny them equal opportunity and equal compensation, I think that is certainly a topic worthy of a greater and extended discussion.

    But nobody is arguing that Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova are themselves the poster children for the issue of societal oppression of women. That's a "hush puppy," and an irrelevant distraction from the immediate matter at hand.



    McEnroe is definately a character (none / 0) (#73)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 01:32:13 PM EST
    I had a mini-conspracy theory going for awhile that his on-court histrionics were all calculated to rattle his opponents; something he picked up from Ilie "Nasty" Nastase, but Arthur Ashe, who would know, said otherwise, calling Mac "his own worst enemy" on the court..

    Those Borg-McEnroe matches were epic.


    Given that men and women don't compete ... (none / 0) (#74)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 02:06:04 PM EST
    ... against one another athletically in the same sport for obvious physiological reasons, comparing them in hypothetical matchups against one another as men and women is well nigh nonsensical.

    Further, to say that Jimmy Connors, Bjorn Borg, John McEnroe, Roger Federer, et al., are the best tennis players ever, while duly qualifying Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King, Chris Evert and Serena Williams as "best female players" by sole virtue of their gender, is inherently sexist.

    It's a truly insecure male who feels compelled to offer such comparisons as a primary measure of his own self-perceived virtual superiority over members of the opposite sex.

    Taking such an absurd argument for categorization by silo to its logical conclusion, should we similarly qualify the late Bill Tilden as the "best homosexual male tennis player" and the late Arthur Ashe as the "best black male player," as well? Of course we wouldn't, any more than we should denote Larry Bird or Jerry West as "the best white basketball player."

    Therefore, why can't we just accept the fact that female athletes can also be great at whatever sport in which they compete, without then attaching an asterisk to their accomplishments because they're women?

    Perversely, I don't see very many male sports pundits making the case that Geno Auriemma shouldn't be considered as one of the all-time great college basketball coaches just because he's in charge of the UConn women's program. Yet a fair number of them have indeed offered that very argument -- (cough!) Stephen A. Smith (cough!) -- when talking about the late Patricia "Pat" Summit of Tennessee, who's only the winningest coach in the history of NCAA basketball.

    Given Serena Williams's player skills, mindset and work ethic, I've no doubt whatsoever that were she a man rather than a woman, she'd very likely be ranked at or near the top of the men's tennis circuit. That's how good she is, and that's what makes her one of the truly great players in the history of tennis. Period, without qualification.



    Hasn't someone like McEnroe (none / 0) (#76)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 02:44:16 PM EST
    who didn't accomplish what he did for purely physiological reasons, which would be equally sexist to claim, earned the right to be recognized for playing the exact same game Serena plays but at a higher level?

    Ouch, I think you are projecting here... (none / 0) (#77)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 02:55:06 PM EST
    It's a truly insecure male who feels compelled to offer such comparisons as a primary measure of his own self-perceived virtual superiority over members of the opposite sex.

    But besides that, using your examples, Tilden and Ashe played the same game as all the other men; men's tennis. They did not play in a different league for homosexuals or blacks. And they didn't play different rules bc they were homosexual or black.

    Woman play in a different league. Their game, literally, has different rules. They literally are playing a different game. Hey, don't take my word for it, that is what Serena says.

    And, as the best of the women players readily points out, she'd be destroyed by the best men players.

    I think a secure person can recognize differences between the genders as a practical matter. I'm not sure a person can speak publicly about those differences w/o having someone take offense.


    Back in the day (none / 0) (#84)
    by ragebot on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 12:47:22 AM EST
    I was in a couple of triathlons where Mark Allen was entered (I was no where close to his level); same for Paula Newby-Fraser who was even more dominant on the women's side than Mark was on the men's side (I always thought Dave Scott was better, he certainly was more friendly).  There was sorta proposed boycott to demand equal prize money for the men's and women's side with all the men but Mark Allen supporting the boycott.  The thing was the prize money even for the Iron Man in Kona was tiny back then and the real money for the pros was from endorsements.  Allen pointed this out longly and loudly, along with the fact that his endorsement total was probably greater than the combined total of all the other triathletes if you left out Dave Scott.  Mark also pointed out that if you looked at the entries at triathlons the number of men entered was massively larger than the number of women entered.  I suspect the same is true for the number of males compared to females who play tennis.  Which probably explains why male athletes get more endorsement money than female athletes; because males buy more athletic toys than females.

    Growing up in South Florida one of my cousins went to high school with Chrissy and I have to say the few times I met her she was as nice and  down to earth as any one I knew.  Of course having Nancy Stafford getting me into social circles helped a lot; even if I was an old man compared to her friends.


    Mark Allen and Dave Scott (none / 0) (#92)
    by MKS on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 02:16:52 PM EST
    were dominant when triathalons achieved major popularity. And they weren't real young when they were winning.

    Too bad about Mark Allen-I liked him. A bit of a machine and inflappable. But apparently not so nice. Story reminds me of Gleen Frye.


    ... about how six Nazi German saboteurs, who were caught in June 1942 and executed by the U.S. military three months later, were honored with a recently discovered monument that had been placed on federal property some time ago by the National Socialist White People's Party:

    Washington Post | June 23, 2017
    Six Nazi spies were executed in D.C. White supremacists gave them a memorial -- on federal land. - "News of the unsettling discovery soon reached Jim Rosenstock, who worked in resource management for the National Park Service and also happened to be a local history buff. He was curious, but also skeptical. How could someone have planted such an item there? And why? And -- above all -- who? Rosenstock needed to see it for himself so he, too, made the hike into Blue Plains, a woody area known best for a wastewater treatment plant and an abundance of mosquitoes. And that's when he saw the stone. 'I kind of started doing a little bit of my own research,' Rosenstock recalled of that day in 2006 when he began to help unravel an only-in-Washington mystery, complete with World War II espionage, nationwide panic, a mass electrocution, J. Edgar Hoover chicanery, white supremacists, classic federal bureaucracy and a U.S. Supreme Court case that played a significant role in America's modern war on terror."

    This is why I like history.

    St. Louis cop shoots armed black man (4.50 / 2) (#4)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jun 23, 2017 at 10:17:28 PM EST
    That is, a fellow police officer.  When a car chase ended with a crash outside his house, a black police officer emerged with his service weapon.  Two officers ordered him onto the ground, then released him when they realized he was a police officer.

    A third on-duty officer arriving a short time afterward saw the black man walking toward his professional colleagues, obviously not in any kind of threatening manner, and shot him.

    Well, he WAS Black.

    Then the shooter claimed that the officer was hit by "friendly fire" in an exchange with the suspects.  Curiously, the officers already on the scene were talking to the soon-to-be-wounded officer and were not shooting at the suspects.  If they were involved in a firefight at the time, they were amazingly casual about their own safety.

    I'm sure someone on this blog knows why a cop should shoot a black man who is not threatening anyone.  You can't be too careful when you are in fear of your life.  Courage is a detriment to police work.

    Right in the article (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Lora on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 12:44:46 PM EST
    Attorney for the wounded officer:
    (emphasis added)
    "In the police report, you have so far, there is no description of threat he received. So we have areal problem with that. But this has been a national discussion for the past two years. There is this perception that a black man is automatically feared," said attorney Rufus J. Tate Jr.

    There you have it.  If this is a knee-jerk reaction, some consciousness-raising and commitment to change is in order. And, especially for law enforcement, training that means something, frequent re-evaluation, checking, and practice.


    could be true (none / 0) (#15)
    by linea on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 09:21:40 PM EST
    a policeman arrives at yet another Gunfight at the OK Corral on the streets of america and impulsively shoots the african american holding a handgun due to unconscious bias. or maybe he shoots the person not wearing a police uniform?

    about me getting spanked in the previous thread:

    I'm afraid you are drawing the wrong inference (#28)
    by Peter G
    from those verdicts, Linea.

    ...what we see is that American juries consistently favor police over civilians, especially non-white ones...

    once again, thank you peter.
    yes, i am open to the assertion that i am drawing the wrong inference. but it seems to me people are missing the fat cow in the room; that the police actually have different "use of force" laws and are tasked with stopping crime. and that the police, the judges, and the juries are following the american laws as it exists; not as some wish it to be.

    from my research -- the united states follows the "common-law" legal standard and police are authorized to use deadly force against any suspect who poses an immediate threat to the officer or a threat to others. in fact, police offices were actually allowed to use lethal force against ANY fleeing person who commited a felony prior to 1985 per Tenn v. Garner (most felonies are non-violent - forged doctor's prescriptions, shoplifting expensive items, etc.).


    Don't forget the Hollywood effect (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by McBain on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 09:39:01 PM EST
    People have been brainwashed by TV and movies.  They're used to seeing lots of dialogue when guns are or may be present.  They think there's plenty of time to defuse a potentially deadly situation when there often isn't.  

    There was no "situation" (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 11:19:04 AM EST
    The Black officer was talking to his colleagues and approaching them, as any normal professional colleague might.  There was no firefight going on.

    Of course he was not in uniform, he was home, off-duty, when the event took place in his front yard.  Of course he emerged armed, because he was on his own property, and he has that Second Amendment right as well as a professional obligation to find out what was going on.

    He was confronted, identified as a police officer, and released.  And then an officer who arrived after all that shot him.

    I know from your previous posts that the officer who shot him could not possibly be at fault. I am interested in your rationale for why the Black officer caused himself to be shot.


    the Hollywood Effect (none / 0) (#24)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 05:01:25 PM EST

    I just avert my eyes (none / 0) (#31)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 06:41:27 PM EST
    Horrid stuff.

    And always defended by the usual suspects.


    People brainwashed (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 07:45:11 AM EST
    includes police officers. Maybe especially police officers.

    How do they manage to get mentally ill people in acute crisis in psychiatric facilities under control without shooting them, tasing them, or beating them nearly to death, the way Alex Landau in Denver was??

    And no, the medications they administer to patients don't take immediate effect.  


    It wasn't just your ... (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by Yman on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 05:36:19 PM EST
    ... incorrect inference.  It was your false assertions about the beliefs of others here, as well as your arrogant belief that you are better informed about American law and the judicial system than those of us who are actually educated about American law and do it for a living.

    It's laughable, really.


    From (4.50 / 2) (#18)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 07:59:42 AM EST
    the fool who cried hoax
    "Well I just heard today for the first time that Obama knew about Russia a long time before the election, and he did nothing about it," Trump said in an excerpt of his interview on Fox News' "Fox and Friends" released Friday. "But nobody wants to talk about that."
    "The CIA gave him information on Russia a long time before they even -- before the election," Trump said. "And I hardly see it. It's an amazing thing. To me, in other words, the question is, if he had the information, why didn't he do something about it? He should have done something about it. But you don't read that. It's quite sad."
    It's hard to get past the totally ignorant lie in the first line but he does raise a question about Obama's actions that will be debated for decades, but, in a sane world, it should automatically raise the question why did you spend all this time calling it a hoax and obstructing the investigation(YMMV)?

    So, wait...Trump is now saying Obama knew (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Anne on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 12:32:57 PM EST
    about something that Trump has been dismissing as just a hoax manufactured by Dems?  So, does he think it's a real thing or not?

    Oh, right, it doesn't matter what Trump said before - nor apparently does it matter that Trump's had the ability to know and be briefed on this for quite a while.

    At this point, why does anyone even listen to anything Trump says - most of the time it's barely coherent, it's almost always devoid of facts, or its full of the alternative facts his pals on Fox News tell him - which is kinda the same thing.

    But, back to Obama: it's not so much that he choked, it's more like he never had the leadership skills or the courage to actually be in front of something and not just observe for long enough to figure out where things were going so he could jump to the front of the line and claim credit for "leading."  It's one of the things that drove me crazy about him, and the problem with being like that is that when push comes to shove in a really important way, he was bound to let the country down.


    The (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by FlJoe on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 01:37:32 PM EST
    sad part is there is around thirty percent of the country who will believe any BS tRump feeds them at any given moment and another fifteen who enable him one way or another.

    Obama's worst mistake was clinging to his bipartisan or even trans-partisan dreams. He never seemed to grasp to true nature of the republicans.
    They cheat, they lie, they demonize and they always get away with it, always.


    A person (none / 0) (#29)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 06:39:58 PM EST
    interviewed for one of the Sunday Morning Shows (Face the Nation, I think) said that we elected Trump and must now believe him.

    Scary, scary stuff.  


    while being unable to (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 06:43:02 PM EST
    "grasp the true nature of the republicans"  was certainly not great for him or the country somehow it seems like a virtue

    Anne? Is it really you? (none / 0) (#47)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 01:43:59 PM EST
    Of course it's really me... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Anne on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 01:51:41 PM EST
    [I hope that's a good thing.]

    It's a very good thing (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 03:07:27 PM EST
    I'm really glad you returned!

    New Masterpiece Mystery (4.50 / 2) (#23)
    by caseyOR on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 04:31:01 PM EST
    starts on PBS tonight. It is called "Tennison," and the program is the prequel to the extraordinary series "Prime Suspect" which starred Helen Mirren as Inspector Jane Tennison.

    Much like "Endeavour " does with Inspector Morse, this new show begins when Jane Tennison first joins the police force and will tell the story of what made Tennison Tennison.

    IMO, "Prime Suspect" is one of the best police procedural to ever apppearcon television. If "Tennison" is anywhere near as good, it will be excellent TV.

    The Birth of a Nation (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 05:04:11 PM EST
    was on HBO last night.  the 21st century version.  i recorded it and just got around to it.

    oh. my. god.

    what a depressing sad movie.  

    jus makes ya proud ta be a amurkan.


    Binged The Leftovers (none / 0) (#33)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 06:45:09 PM EST
    Good advice to start from the beginning.  You really start to care about the characters amid the absurdity.

    Carrie Coon's Nora is very hard to forget.  And perpetually perplexed Justin Theroux is good too.

    And, just when Laurie looks to be the most sane, she does something insane...

    Too bad it is over.  I really enjoyed.

    The finale was satisfying....and a relief.  There is some sanity here.


    did you catch Carrie Coon (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 07:23:55 PM EST
    in this season of FARGO.  something about her.  definitely.  she could get noms for two different lead roles at EMMY time.  so far she should get it for LEFTOVERS IMO.

    its been announced the writer Damon Lindelof is going to do a series for HBO based on WATCHMEN.  very excited about that.  he also responsible for LOST.  which i never saw when it was running but binged the whole thing a year or so ago.  amazing.


    ooo baby (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 07:32:10 PM EST
    Looks like Damon Lindelof may be going back to work for HBO.

    Fresh off the critically acclaimed series finale of "The Leftovers," Lindelof is in talks to develop an adaptation of the comic book series "Watchmen" to the cabler.

    This will be HBO's second attempt at developing a series based on the landmark DC Comics miniseries by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons. The premium channel had kicked the tires on a "Watchmen" project in 2014. Sources say Lindelof's take on the series would be starting over from scratch independent of that effort.



    I heard that (none / 0) (#38)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 07:36:27 PM EST
    May start watching.

    If you mean FARGO (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 07:48:49 PM EST
    You get to binge.  It finaled last week.

    An equally (well almost) good finale also featuring Carrie Coon in the memorable end scenes.


    I am watching the right. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Chuck0 on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 08:45:37 PM EST
    Certainly agree with your assessment. No happy endings.

    Really hard to watch (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 09:05:16 PM EST
    Because it's so easy to imagine happening.

    To easy.


    thanks for the heads up (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 05:04:46 PM EST

    i would have missed this.  


    Tennison was (none / 0) (#44)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 12:04:24 PM EST
    very well done.

    oooh, thanks, I missed that! Will try to (none / 0) (#46)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 01:36:54 PM EST
    catch Ep 1 on the PBS app. Hope it is as good as all their other shows!

    I watched Tennison (none / 0) (#51)
    by desertswine on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 02:16:33 PM EST
    but had trouble understanding all of the dialogue.  Maybe its me.

    Subtitles (none / 0) (#52)
    by jmacWA on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 02:26:39 PM EST
    In my old age, I can have a hard time with some English, and most Scottish accents.  I find that the subtitles help quite a bit. YMMV

    But I don't wanna read subtitles... (none / 0) (#57)
    by desertswine on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 06:04:12 PM EST
    Why can't they just speak louder, enunciate better, and lose their accents?

    i usually have closed captioning on (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 06:13:43 PM EST
    and ignore it unless there is something i dont understand.

    ive been doing this for a long time because i have a very loud sound system and sometimes it drowns dialog.  its either that or have the center channel so loud its really annoying


    That's what I do too (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 09:02:25 PM EST
    ... to "Downton Abbey" cast members Hugh Bonneville, Michelle Dockery and Allen Leech and had them perform an actual scene from the show as Americans. It was pretty funny.

    Supreme Court on Muslim/Travel (4.50 / 2) (#45)
    by KeysDan on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 12:51:39 PM EST
    Ban.  The Court (l) granted the Trump Administration's petition for Certiorari (agreeing to hear the case on the merits, the rule of (at least) four to take the case for--violation of statute or Constitution) and consolidated the cases for argument in the October term (the Court noted that the government did not ask for expedited consideration of the merits).

    (2)the Trump Administration's request to stay the injunctions by the lower courts that bar enforcement until the cases were decided on the merits was granted in part, finding that the injunctions were too broad.

     Enforcement is narrowed to foreign nationals who lack any bona fide relationship with a person or entity in the US.

    Examples of a relationship for an individual is close family--a foreign national wishing to enter the US to live with or visit a family member;

     a relationship with an entity is a formal, documented, and formed in the ordinary course rather than for purposes of evading.  An example of a relationship with an entity is a student admitted to a University, or a worker who accepted
    an offer of employment from a US company or as a visiting lecturer at a University.  The same criteria would apply for refugees--if no bona fide connection, it tips to the government.

    The decision was per curiam, with a dissent written by Thomas, and concurred in part by Alito and Gorsuch.  The essential difference between the other six members and Thomas's dissent was he would have stayed the injunctions in full, arguing that the granting of cert suggests the ban will succeed on the merits.  Moreover, Thomas contends that the bona fide relationship between individuals and entities is subject to difference of interpretation and, possible litigation.

    im sorry to ask (none / 0) (#59)
    by linea on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 07:30:56 PM EST
    but do you have a link to the actual scotus ruling? i googled but could not find the actual document.

    also, i read the article jeralyn linked to in the top topic and that article states that the supreme court's decision was 9-0. thus, i am confused by your reference to a dissent by clarence thomas. thank you.


    sorry, i found it (none / 0) (#60)
    by linea on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 07:49:11 PM EST
    this sounds troubling (4.50 / 2) (#63)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 09:22:28 PM EST
    just released White House statement

    The White House alleged on Monday that the Syrian government appears to be preparing a chemical attack on civilians. In a statement, the White House appeared to threaten military action against Syria.
    "The United States has identified potential preparations for another chemical weapons attack by the [Bashar al] Assad regime that would likely result in the mass murder of civilians, including innocent children," the White House wrote in a Monday night statement. "As we have previously stated, the United States is in Syria to eliminate the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. If, however, Mr. Assad conducts another mass murder attack using chemical weapons, he and his military will pay a heavy price."

    They're probably lying again... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by desertswine on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 01:53:44 AM EST
    more smoke and yet another distraction.

    Buzzfeed spoke to five US defense officials who told the publications "they did not know where the potential chemical attack would come from" and were not informed that the White House was going to release such a statement. As Buzzfeed notes, statements like this are usually coordinated across national security agencies prior to their release.

    troubling (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 10:12:22 AM EST
    either way.  maybe more troubling.  i had been thinking it was probably only a matter of time until they maunfactured or encited a crisis to push Russia out of the news.

    i still think its likely.

    he could have a useful ally in Putin in that.


    Good grief... (none / 0) (#1)
    by fishcamp on Fri Jun 23, 2017 at 04:59:02 PM EST
    Who was his lawyer?

    Rock (none / 0) (#3)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 23, 2017 at 09:47:28 PM EST
    I would like to introduce Hard Place...
    A leading pro-Trump dark money group just helped Republicans win a huge special election victory. Now it's threatening to take out a vulnerable GOP Senator.
    America First Policies, a non-profit advocacy outfit, plans on spending seven figures attacking Nevada Republican Sen. Dean Heller if he maintains his opposition to White House-backed health care legislation, the group confirmed on Friday.

    It's Midsummer's Eve... (none / 0) (#5)
    by desertswine on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 12:08:51 AM EST
    “Are you sure/That we are awake? It seems to me/That yet we sleep, we dream”

    "the fierce vexation of a dream... (none / 0) (#50)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 01:51:52 PM EST
    that hath no bottom."

    There's no fixing stupid. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 06:40:32 AM EST
    Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, Trump's so-called expert on voter fraud, has been sanctioned and fined by a federal judge for "patently misleading representations" in a lawsuit brought by the ACLU, as well as for "deceptive conduct and a lack of candor." In the meantime, he's also announced his candidacy for governor. Given that it's Kansas, he ought to be a shoo-in.

    Yep (none / 0) (#7)
    by FlJoe on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 07:11:37 AM EST
     "patently misleading representations" and "deceptive conduct and a lack of candor" are considered badges of honor in the current GOP, maybe not quite the silver star level  for p$$sy grabbing or punching reporters in the face but certainly a bronze star.

    The new stories (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 09:57:23 AM EST
    Are beginning to suggest Plebus and others possibly sitting congress persons might be worried, or should be worried, about Mueller.

    I'm starting to think the CW that Muellers investigation could take "years" might not be correct.

    If, as we have heard, Flynn is singing...
    And we know investigations have been under way for many months.  Preet has certainly discussed what he was looking at before the ax fell.

    I think Mueller feels the need to give the country some closure.  I wouldn't be surprised based on what I have read about him he would like to do it before we are in the middle of another election, I think we might Nat have to wait years.  


    Watergate (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 08:44:34 PM EST
    was pretty extensive and it took about 18 months and that was with the firing of a special counsel. So personally I expect this to be wrapping up around the midterms.

    Well according to today's conservative (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 11:25:30 AM EST
    Walking Dead, p*ssy grabbing is for "baby christians"; the true ideal for these folks is Birther Gadarene Swine like Kris Kobach, with his multiple degrees, televangelist dyed hair, and frozen-in-place incandescent smile. When he gets elected to higher office, he'll lay on hands and cast out all the liberal-secularist demons and all real or imagined fraudulent voters.

    Lately whenever I see Kobach all I can think of is Dan White as played by Josh Brolin in Milk. And that's the most positive association I can make.


    Yikes! That's a frightening thought. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 08:27:51 PM EST
    Josh Brolin earned a well-deserved Academy Award nomination as best supporting actor for his complex turn as the emotionally volatile Mr. White in Gus Van Sant's critically acclaimed 2008 film.

    White's abbreviated term as San Francisco supervisor represented a regressive throwback to a bygone political era during a time of profound progressive change in the city. As a result, he often found himself punching way above his weight class, which frustrated him to no good end.

    Throw in the fact that White's springs were wound way too tight for someone involved in politics, and all the ingredients were there for a tragic outcome. His assassinations of Mayor George Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk in November 1978, followed five months later by the trial jury's failure to convict him of murder, were watershed moments in San Francisco politics.

    And just as his own psychiatrist had feared when testifying at his murder trial, less than two years after his release from prison, Dan White committed suicide in October 1985 -- but not before confessing in 1984 to Frank Falzon, the SFPD homicide detective who had arrested White six years earlier, that he had indeed gone to City Hall that tragic morning with every intent to murder both Moscone and Milk.

    So, the Moscone-Milk killings were not an act borne of diminished capacity after all, but one of admitted premeditation and cold-blooded calculation. That fact was accurately conveyed in the haunting climax of Van Sant's film, as Brolin's eerily detached White enters San Francisco City Hall through a back window, calmly seeks out both of his victims in their respective offices, and then maliciously guns them both down in turn.



    We lived in (none / 0) (#80)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 07:16:31 PM EST
    SF back then.  Harvey was our city supervisor, we had met him and we liked him.  His  camera shop was just a few doors down from our bank, we walked by it frequently.
    We thought that White's so-called "Twinkie defense" was pure, unadulterated pasture puckey.

    ... as primer, model and inspiration for those who seek to learn about low-funded urban grassroots organizing. There are those who still attempt to marginalize his legacy by mischaracterizing him merely as a "gay candidate." In fact, he was not a one-issue guy, but a candidate and elected official who also so happened to be unapologetically gay.

    And while Milk was undeniably a champion of LGBT rights, he had also patiently and painstakingly built a broad cross-section of support over the years in his central San Francisco district. He was seen by his constituents as a voice of reason and compassion for labor, small business, the elderly, the forgotten and the ignored. The Teamsters loved and supported him because he organized the successful boycott in the city against Coors Brewing Co. for its notoriously anti-labor attitudes and practices.

    Unfortunately, Harvey Milk wasn't in office long enough to have made a substantial impact in city governance. He's remembered more for his moral authority on civil rights issues than anything else, and his liberal spirit continues to cast a long shadow over San Francisco politics. His own legacy even eclipses that of his political contemporary and ally Mayor George Moscone; sadly, people often need to be reminded that Moscone was also slain by Dan White on that horrible morning.

    But one very useful measure Milk wrote and passed during his tragically abbreviated tenure on the San Francisco Board of Supervisors later served as a legislative template for other municipalities across the country.

    Harvey authored the very first local ordinance in the United States which mandated that dog owners must clean up their pets' messes in public areas such as parks and sidewalks. While that pioneering ordinance was initially controversial and even ridiculed 40 years ago, the inherent common sense of Harvey's proposal rendered its eventual public embrace inevitable.



    I know all this, Donald (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 06:02:11 PM EST
    We lived through it.

    I see people referring to Kansas (none / 0) (#10)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 12:18:01 PM EST
    as "Kochistan", which is pretty funny, or would be, if the consequences weren't so potentially dire.

    When you sow the government with the seeds of stupid, you shouldn't be surprised when you subsequent reap a crop of stupid. Personally, I find it hard to sympathize with people who deliberately elected as their governor an ideologue of clearly mediocre talent and intellect like Sam Brownback, not only once but twice, and just because he had an (R) following his name. If Kansans think they're getting screwed, they need only look in the mirror to see who did it to them.

    At this point (none / 0) (#12)
    by jondee on Sat Jun 24, 2017 at 07:26:09 PM EST
    I think they'd elect Captain William Quantrill, if he came back and was the Republican frontrunner.

    ... from Washington, signaling the Kremlin's increased concern over the growing investigation by a special counsel and multiple congressional committees into Russia's interference in the 2016 presidential election, a scandal in which Kislyak has emerged as a central figure and key player.

    now (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 06:40:25 PM EST
    if they would only recall Trump

    Not content to rely (none / 0) (#34)
    by MKS on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 06:48:03 PM EST
    on diplomatic immunity?

    Man, there is a lot smoke from all over.....but Trump will have the GOP protect him no matter what.


    as i said upthread (none / 0) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 07:28:31 PM EST
    the whole thing seems to be revving up.  i would not be surprised if we were all surprised by fall.

    Well, his work is done here (none / 0) (#64)
    by Towanda on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 09:40:32 PM EST
    . . . after all.

    Check please! (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 09:48:31 PM EST
    It looks like Anthony Kennedy (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Jun 25, 2017 at 07:59:54 PM EST
    Will perhaps NOT give Trump another nominee.

    Praise Jesus

    The 80-year-old justice sparked a flood of speculation that he was set to announce his retirement when he moved up by a year a long-scheduled reunion of his former clerks.

    But he made no announcement about his future at the event, held this weekend at the court, one attendee said.

    The legal site Above the Law quoted Kennedy as joking at the reunion that he had an announcement that had been the subject of speculation: "The bar will remain open after the end of the formal program."

    Thought I read some place (none / 0) (#85)
    by ragebot on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 12:54:03 AM EST
    Kennedy named clerks for the next session.  Can't find the link but thought it was on VC.

    He staying (none / 0) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 02:20:39 AM EST
    For another term they say.

    While many bash Trump as a do nothing (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by ragebot on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:45:59 PM EST
    I suspect a lot of his supporters voted for him on what I will call a single issue, that being court appointments.  I bet Kennedy will retire before Trump's term ends.  Not to mention health issues may force one or more of the more liberal judges to retire.  Also a possibility Thomas may retire as well.  Even if Trump does nothing else for the rest of his term he will have appointed one SC justice and as of now something like 200+ lower court judges.  This may well be Trump's legacy.

    Mitch Landrieu (none / 0) (#43)
    by CaptHowdy on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 10:27:21 AM EST
    Watch this guy


    YES! (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 08:28:50 AM EST
    Could he be the one Louisiana (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 12:12:18 PM EST
    politician since the Battle of New Orleans was fought who doesn't have some dirt in his background? Lets hope so.

    VEEP and Silicon Valley season finales (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 01:49:25 PM EST
    That was the funniest hour of TV I have seen in quite some time. Each a masterpiece in its own way. Will watch again tonight...maybe every night forever.

    Anyone else having weird login (none / 0) (#54)
    by ruffian on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 03:40:17 PM EST
    stuff happening here? Like I am in this thread now, and it knows I am logged in, but if I click the 'home' button in the sidebar, it no longer knows I am logged in and I have to log in again...then sometimes it tells me I am already logged in when I do that?

    Seems this way now both on firefox, Explored, and the new MS browser in Win10.  Never seemed to do that - I stayed logged in at least in all the threads I went to in a day.

    I've noticed that for a while now, ... (none / 0) (#56)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Jun 26, 2017 at 04:10:48 PM EST
    ... after TalkLeft migrated to a new server. The problem is likely on TL's end and not yours.

    best defense money can buy (none / 0) (#83)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 27, 2017 at 08:40:32 PM EST
    Aitabdellah Salem spent 138 additional days in jail after a judge ordered his release from Rikers Island. Salem claims his Legal Aid attorneys did not inform him that his bail was reduced from $50,000 to just $1.
    Although Mayor Bill de Blasio released plans last week to close the city's notorious jail complex within a decade, 9,400 detainees are still being held at the facility critics deem inhumane. From November 28, 2014 to April 15, 2015, Salem was one of them..
    He's now suing the city of New York and his "negligent" Legal Aid attorneys, among others, in Manhattan federal court for "unlawful incarceration and restraint of liberty," according to the suit filed Monday. The suit accuses senior officials in the New York City Department of Correction of knowingly allowing jail employees to break Rikers policies, creating an unwritten policy that is "deeply embedded in the culture of the Department of Correction."


    Good news from the land of Lincoln (none / 0) (#90)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Jun 28, 2017 at 11:16:51 AM EST
    Oregon Standoff Gundown Nets Indictment (none / 0) (#94)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:14:29 AM EST
    - of an FBI Agent...

    "The shooting of Robert "LaVoy" Finicum on a snowy Oregon highway on Jan. 26, 2016, was one of those instant American dramas in which every photo, every eyewitness account and every millisecond of video become forensic evidence in a public debate over whether someone deserved to die at the hands of police."

    a moment after Finicum staggered out of the truck with his arms in the air, a video taken by one of the passengers inside the truck shows an apparent shot hitting the roof of the vehicle and striking a window.

    Anyone care to offer any free policy advice on how a person should react when the cops have already begun unloading their self loading arsenals in your direction?

    It was an ugly incident and some pretty ugly opinions were expressed.

    When you take up arms (none / 0) (#95)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 09:04:46 AM EST
    ...in resistance to the United States government, you can expect the government to shoot back.

    Maybe the NRA should teach a class in this subject.  Gun crazies think the Second Amendment is like body armor.  It isn't.

    If the cop who shot Philando Castile gets away with it, then this agent should also, since the dead guy here was clearly armed and dangerous and had announced that fact, and Mr. Castile was none of those things.


    And wtf does your little speech (none / 0) (#97)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 10:22:32 AM EST
    have to do with this situation?

    I don't think the answer to... (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 10:55:45 AM EST
    the disproportionate number of African Americans who wind up dead when coming in contact with law enforcement is to rejoice when white folks wind up dead when coming in contact in law enforcement.  

    Regardless of anyone's opinion of a particular victim's behavior that led to the interaction with the badges...one should not wind up dead instead or arrested/ticketed/warned/sent on their way, period.

    The main problem lies with our code of law that allows law enforcement to kill by simply "fearing for their life", a pathetically low standard for use of lethal force in my opinion.  There should be a clear and present danger of harm coming to the officer before use of lethal force can be justified and/or excused.  


    Can you give examples of what (none / 0) (#107)
    by McBain on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:21:22 PM EST
    clear and present danger of harm would and wouldn't be?  Should law enforcement have to wait until being shot at before shooting?

    I don't know much about the incident Mr. Natural linked to but I know a little about some other famous stand offs.... Ruby Ridge and Waco.  Law enforcement didn't start those tragedies but they definitely made them much worse.  Unfortunately, we'll never know the truth of what really happened at Waco,


    Getting shot at would qualify... (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:38:50 PM EST
    or pointing the barrel of a gun at a cop.  Menacing within 10-15 feet with a knife or baseball bat.  Simply possessing a gun/knife/bat is not enough to justify lethal force by my metric, nor is being assaulted without a weapon...trained law enforcement should be able to handle that stuff without firing their weapon.  

    Totally agree on Ruby Ridge and Waco...those are national shames, as are the too many deaths to list of unarmed black men.


    We tend to forget that both Randy Weaver ... (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 02:53:42 PM EST
    ... and David Koresh were in gross violation of federal laws prohibiting the unlicensed trafficking of both legal and illegally altered firearms, e.g., sawed-off shotguns, which is what initially drew them the attention of federal authorities in the first place.

    It was the clearly disproportionate response to those respective situations and the subsequent abysmal bungling of operations by those same federal authorities, eventually leading to a wholly unnecessary loss of innocent life, which renders the names of Ruby Ridge and Waco as indelible black marks in the annals of federal law enforcement.

    In both instances, time was on the side of the law, and the feds could've simply waited the miscreants out. Instead, their impatience with the prolonged standoffs precipitated tragedy.



    It would be nice if all cops (none / 0) (#114)
    by McBain on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 02:09:37 PM EST
    were super MMA athletes with excellent people skills who were always calm under pressure but that's just not realistic.  I think cops already make a good living but we would have to double their salaries to attract the best of the best.



    Double the salary... (none / 0) (#115)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 02:14:24 PM EST
    and cut the number of law enforcement in half and nobody would be happier than me;) And budget neutral!

    And for the half that remain, more martial arts training and less time at the gun range so they can subdue aggressive yet unarmed violent suspects who may have a size advantage.  


    Let me add this. (none / 0) (#96)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 09:07:06 AM EST
    I have more sympathy for a road kill raccoon than I do for anyone who suffered injuries as a result of armed invasion of public property.

    way more (none / 0) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 10:55:46 AM EST
    But Mr. Hand... (none / 0) (#104)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 12:52:34 PM EST
    if I'm of the public, and you're of the public, doesn't that kinda make it our property?  

    BS kdog (none / 0) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:02:28 PM EST
    Total BS.

    Either you don't understand the actual incident or you are misrepresenting it.


    Just reaching... (none / 0) (#106)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:14:15 PM EST
    for a Fast Times at Ridgemont High reference, more than anything Damone;)

    Repack's comment about an armed invasion of public property spurned an internal theoretical debate within me about how one goes about "invading" what they already own, at least in fractions.

    Obviously, the militia loons would probably be a lot quicker to shoot us should we have decided to invade one of their ranches to go mushroom picking than the G-men were in shooting one of theirs.  But I lean towards holding the armed wing of the state to a higher standard than militia loons.  


    Some dude that invades public property denies me, and you, our rightful use of that property. Etc.

    Did the Bundy crew... (none / 0) (#112)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:47:28 PM EST
    use their guns or presence to deny others use of the land?  I hadn't heard that, but I didn't follow it that closely.

    Should I live in or visit an open carry state and see some militia dudes hanging out on public lands, I might be creeped out, but as long as they don't stop me from hiking or having a picnic on the same public lands, it's all good.  

    I guess I question the use of "invade" here...did Occupy Wall Street "invade" Zuccotti Park?  Hell no, they were hanging out protesting in Zuccotti Park.  Aside from the guns, it's basically the same sh&t as the Bundy crew if I'm not mistaken...except it was public land in rural Oregon instead of downtown Manhattan.  Personally, I like the unarmed style but that's just me.  


    Yes, they did. (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Jack E Lope on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 10:24:42 AM EST
    ...and way beyond what jondee describes.

    The Bundys and their followers occupied the Malheur NWR buildings, and blocked the access roads.  They put people with scoped rifles in a watch tower at the site; they spent a lot of time with either a spotting scope or the barrel of a rifle pointed through a window that had one pane removed.  (One of the people who came from Nevada with the Bundys stated that he had organized snipers at the Bundy ranch, and that federal agents would have been killed if they had done something wrong.  That probably created a reasonable fear in the mind of any federal employee who might try to wander past the perimeter established by the occupiers.)

    They shut out leaders/members of other anti-government groups - even those who had expressed support of the message or goals of Bundy's group.

    Their demands were misguided, too.  They demanded that the land be returned to local control for use by the ranchers/farmers - but it had never been owned by private persons, companies, or any government but the federal government.  The Paiute had been granted that land by treaty, but it was taken from them after some participated in an uprising.


    Maybe it's just me (none / 0) (#118)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 02:35:19 PM EST
    but waving guns around in public doesn't strike me as a non-threatening, neutral statement conducive to the open, free, democratic exchanges.

    Definitely not... (none / 0) (#122)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 07:41:34 AM EST
    we should mention that to the FBI, DEA, ATF, and all acronyms in between, federal state & local. In addition to their public sector counterparts in the NRA and assorted clown militias.

    iow, just because they bad gunmen don't make the gunmen pointing at them good.  And not for nuthin', no FBI agent wound up shot in the back dead.  


    "Ours" means everybody's (none / 0) (#109)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:37:48 PM EST
    which means a small select group of armed-to-the-teeth welfare ranchers can't violently commandeer it for their own ends .

    Agreed... (none / 0) (#113)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 01:54:23 PM EST
    I question whether they really commandeered or attempted to commandeer anything.  Hear them tell it, they just wanted the State of Oregon to be steward instead of The United States.  Not a totally unreasonable position to take, though their ulterior unspoken motives were perhaps more sinister.

    Why stop at the tyrannical State of Oregon? (none / 0) (#116)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 02:26:17 PM EST
    why not the county, the nearest town, the biggest employer in the area (Walmart?), or the whoever has the biggest ranch in the area with the most livestock?

    Pick your poison Brother... (none / 0) (#123)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 07:47:12 AM EST
    pick your poison...whoever is least likely to allow poisoning the ground water gets my vote, and I'm sorry to say that's probably not the EPA.

    Lets put the Walla Walla people back in charge...they were sound stewards.


    Yeah until you get to the Walla Walla (none / 0) (#127)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 01:47:17 PM EST
    Cato Institute followers who view waterways and old growth trees as nothing but capital ripe for liquidation..

    I still say the better plan in the long run is to (somehow) get the EPA back doing what it was orginally to do.


    Good luck... (none / 0) (#129)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 01:59:38 PM EST
    we're gonna need it.  Even before Trump, the EPA was signing off left and right on allowing frackers to dump their toxic byproducts into injection wells, with who knows what kind of contamination to groundwater to follow in the coming years/decades/centuries.

    Rolling Stone recently did a piece on a small PA township that decided to fight back by claiming a little sovereignty back from the feds/state/county.  Linkage  


    Originally intended to do.. (none / 0) (#130)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 02:04:23 PM EST
    Finicum forgot the unfortunate (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 29, 2017 at 11:03:41 AM EST
    number 1 rule to insure personal biologic survival when dealing with hepped-up, itchy-fingered law enforcement personnel: comply, comply, comply, kiss ass, genuflect, and comply some more. Over-comply. Treat all officers with the sort of nonthreatening, kid-glove deference one would ordinarily reserve for an audience with the Dalai Lama.

    The pen and voice of moral authority are mightier than the sword, but in some fraught, immediate situations, the priority should be on survival in order to be able to take the fight to battlefield of one's own choosing when the time is ripe.


    Some real ugly posts again (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 03:08:56 AM EST
    Lefties hating on the righties as much as righties hate the lefties.

    As the evidence apparently showed, Law enforcement agency bullets were already being fired at Finicum as he exited the vehicle with his hands in the air.

    Nobody dismounted their high horse to answer my simple question, wtf do you do when the cops are already emptying their guns in your direction?

    Kdog's was the only non creepy response.

    Comparing a human being to roadkill?  Boasting that your emotional response to a demographic or pointless criminal act is more important than justice or a human life?  

    So much hate.


    So many pearls to clutch (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 10:28:10 AM EST
    So little time

    To answer your question Kind Sir... (none / 0) (#124)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 07:58:30 AM EST
    you die, your family and their attorney gets a settlement, the treasury gets lighter, GOP proposes cuts to social safety nets.  Rinse and repeat.

    Creepy, eh? (none / 0) (#128)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 30, 2017 at 01:59:11 PM EST
    how is it "hateful" to recommend that the mfer do the only thing a human being with any sense of self preservation can do in a situation in which you're facing off against robotic FBI agents: get on the ground, put your hands out where they can be seen, and say I surrender.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm certainly not happy about the man being shot.