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Thursday Open Thread

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    United reaches settlement with Dr. Dao (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by McBain on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 02:40:23 PM EST
    "Dao's lawyers announced the deal Thursday but did not disclose the financial terms of the settlement".
    Any guesses?  

    In another incident, a man was removed from a Delta flight for taking an emergency trip to the restroom  
    just before takeoff.

    The carrier says Kima Hamilton didn't comply with the crew's instructions.

    As someone with a prostate issue, I have sympathy for anyone in that situation.  However, airlines tend to be stricter about takeoff procedures.  I'd like to hear more information on this one.

    I know folks who know Kima (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 03:26:40 PM EST
    and he is a good guy.

    I plan to let the lawyer know that she is a good person to help him on this.

    And on my next flights, I now know to ask where a lawyer is seated -- and get the seat next to it.

    Parent

    i feel (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by linea on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 08:44:06 PM EST
    he spoke and behaved calmly and responsibly. that he explained his situation and attempted to accomodate the unreasonable demands of the aircrew.

    Parent
    Speaking as a frequent flier, ... (none / 0) (#5)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 03:56:07 PM EST
    ... I would only note that federal law requires all passengers aboard commercial aircraft to comply with crew instructions at all times. Further, anyone who is not secured in his or her seat prior to departure endangers not only him- or herself but also everyone around him or her, particularly should the pilot be compelled for whatever reason to abort the takeoff roll prior to rotation off the runway.

    If you have bladder control issues for whatever reason (and I'm assuming that you know that you do), then you best ensure that you visit the restroom prior to boarding. If you do have an emergency situation after you've already boarded your aircraft, then you should immediately notify the cabin crew so that they can both accommodate your need, and further inform the pilot or first officer in the cockpit to not depart while you're still in the lavatory.

    (I speak from experience here, having once faced just such an occurrence with my then-four-year-old daughter, who of course had waited until we were seated and buckled in before finally telling me that she really had to go, and go now. The cabin crew were quite understanding and took care of us, and the pilot held the plane at the gate while she took care of business in the aft lavatory.)

    Finally, don't be unduly embarrassed by your immediate situation to the point where you don't say anything, even though you're clearly uncomfortable and perhaps even in distress. Flight attendants are professionals, and many have dealt with this sort of situation before. That's why they are there. Trust me, nobody wants you to have an accident in your seat, so please say something.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    You needed to read the reporting (none / 0) (#7)
    by Towanda on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 04:59:48 PM EST
    on this incident, in detail, prior to pontificating. Or peeing.

    Parent
    With all due respect, since this article is mostly full of hearsay and the passenger video only begins after Mr. Hamilton has been asked in debark the flight, none of us have any idea what he initially said to the cabin crew, or what was first said to him in response.

    Did Mr. Hamilton in fact adequately convey the urgency of his situation to a flight attendant? Since I can't determine that from either the article or its video, I'm sorry, but I can't just assume that he did and give him the benefit of the doubt, absent further information to that effect.

    So, given that Delta Air Lines is presently supporting the decision of its flight crew to order Mr. Hamilton's removal from the aircraft, I'm standing by what I wrote.

    That said, I think that Delta's a lousy company, so if it's subsequently shown that the flight crew was clearly in the wrong with regard to their handling of Mr. Hamilton's situation, I'll gladly reassess my opinion of the incident at that particular time. But absent that, I'm not going to first assume here that the flight crew was necessarily in the wrong.

    It's highly likely that the only reason this incident even made the news is because of heightened public awareness in the wake of the UAL incident at Chicago-O'Hare. Other than that, this is an entirely different matter here.

    People are often removed from flights for a variety of reasons, most of which have to do with a disruption of the flight crew's performance of their duties. Federal rules adopted by the FAA in the wake of 9/11 compel a flight crew to err on the side of caution in any assessment of passenger conduct, and give them significant latitude in determining what constitutes a passenger disruption.

    Look, you're not riding a city subway or bus. When a flight attendant tells you to take or remain in your seat, you do not have an option as to whether or not you wish to comply with that directive. Per federal law, flight attendants are responsible at all times for passenger safety, so it's their call and not yours. You therefore need to respect their authority, particularly when they're trying to secure the aircraft for departure. Otherwise, you risk being left behind and having to wait for the next flight, if not an actual arrest by federal marshals.

    Now, that's all I'm going to say on this matter. I don't see any point in engaging in a back-and-forth discussion based mostly upon third-party conjecture as to what may or may not have happened, as opposed to the actual facts.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Reread what I wrote, too (none / 0) (#37)
    by Towanda on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 03:38:43 PM EST
    which was to read the reporting on this incident.

    That is not the same as to read only this story.

    Google is your friend.  

    Parent

    If you (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 12:34:26 AM EST
    have an emergency situation after you've already boarded your aircraft, then you should immediately notify the cabin crew....

    He did.

    She said Hamilton needed to use the restroom while the plane was on the tarmac in Atlanta. He was told he couldn't the first time he tried. However, when a half-hour went by, Hamilton said it was an emergency.

    The Delta crew didn't help.

    When he came back, a Delta employee told him to get off the plane.

    Really.....

    If you have bladder control issues for whatever reason (and I'm assuming that you know that you do), then you best ensure that you visit the restroom prior to boarding

    BPH, benign prostrate enlargement, is a disease in which the prostrate enlarges. Couple this with any infection and/or irritation the tube from the bladder to the penis is restricted by the prostrate's enlarged size. This can prevent complete emptying of the bladder while peeing. In turn, the patient "thinks" he has emptied but within minutes needs to pee again.

    On a final note I hope you never wake up at 4AM needing to pee and discover that you can't. It  is not only painful and while it may seem like a small issue, if the bladder is overfilled it can rupture filling the lower body cavity with urine leading to an infection that could lead to sepsis and death.

    On a more positive note the ER's of most hospital's are fairly vacant at that hour.  

    Parent

    Omg, I'm agreeing with Jim, again (none / 0) (#39)
    by Towanda on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 03:43:20 PM EST
    and I say that as someone with only part of one kidney, for almost sixty years now -- surviving that long in part because my medical instructions always are to, um, void often -- and asap.  And it can be often, as my medical instructions also are to drink lots of fluids.  

    I will follow my medical advice from my nephrologist, not a flight attendant.  They hold me on the tarmac, especially after claiming to be only third in line for takeoff, they better let me get to the restroom.

    Parent

    wasnt there (none / 0) (#47)
    by linea on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 08:32:10 PM EST
    some seriously "bdsm" stranded on the tarmac for hours issue going on in airports in the u.s. like maybe five years ago? maybe chicago? they refused to deboard (de-plane is stupid) passengers until they could get to a gate because they didnt want people to sue then if the fell walking down stairs?

    Parent
    Did you hear (none / 0) (#34)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 02:38:07 PM EST
    ...the United CEO talking about Dr. Dao after the settlement?  Dude could not have been more apologetic, said that everyone acting on behalf of United could not have been more wrong, dude went on and on about how terribly Dr. Dao was mistreated.

    I'm guessing they knocked ten or fifteen million off the settlement if he would crawl around on his belly like a reptile while apologizing.  Maybe it was a deal he made to let him keep the airline.

    Didn't mention any culpability on the part of Dr. Dao.  Looks like you lost your bet.


    Parent

    My letter to the radio host (4.33 / 6) (#1)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 02:18:18 PM EST
    Ronn Owens is one of the most popular call-in talk show hosts in the Bay Area.  He has been on the biggest radio station in the area for decades.  I have called his show many times, generally get cut off before I am allowed to make the point I called about.  The following letter to him is self-explanatory.

       

    Mr. Owens,

        I am a US Army veteran (E5, Honorable), a retired business owner, a 71-year old lifelong resident of the Bay Area, relatively famous in my field, with worldwide name recognition.  I have a book in print.  I can go to any country in the world and see my personal influence on modern culture.  And I am a proud liberal, descended from liberal patriots who have defended this country since the 19th Century, and whose parents built Liberty Ships during WW II.

        You, on the other hand, are a right-wing shill masquerading as a "centrist."  I am unable to listen to KGO before noon.  The a.m. hours are given to the right-wingers Armstrong and Getty, and you.  When you fail to defend reality from specious conservative arguments, I switch to KFRC.  I would rather listen to traffic reports in places I don't even go than curse at the unchallenged falsehoods that you so enjoy broadcasting.

        Last week while driving, I gave you a chance.  I lasted less than five minutes.  You took a call regarding the Ann Coulter speech in Berkeley.  You agreed with the caller that "liberals oppose free speech," based on the actions of a few.  You know better than that, e.g. you know that the ACLU has defended the First Amendment rights of Nazis, but you echoed the blanket condemnation of the most patriotic demographic in our country.

        Surely you are aware that Ms. Coulter wants these confrontations and encourages them through her hate speech.  There is a small group of anarchists, for all I know hired by Ms. Coulter, who do not respect the First Amendment, as liberals like myself do.  It is not a secret that Occupy was infiltrated by provocateurs.  These clowns disrupted Occupy protests and the Coulter appearance, and you use them to tar those of us who do not agree with Ms. Coulter but will defend her right to speak.

        The First Amendment is not a guarantee of a pulpit.  The University of California is under no obligation to supply her with one, especially when doing so gives tacit support to unAmerican values.  Ms. Coulter is rich, she can rent an auditorium, speak her mind, and keep the proceeds if she wishes, but she is not here to make money, she is here to make trouble and reap the publicity.  And you want to help her.

        Another example of your failure: You agreed with a caller that Hillary Clinton was a "terrible candidate."  Compared to whom?  Her opponent was Donald Trump, lazy, a liar, an ignoramus, a misogynist, a sexual predator, a racist and a xenophobe who did not have a clue how the government works, while she is smart, hard working and intimately familiar with the federal government.  

        Mr. Trump got a huge boost when the "email" non-scandal was given miles of columns in national papers, and when James Comey implied days before the election and too late for a response, that she may have done something wrong even if he couldn't explain what that might be.  Amazing how all those accusations disappeared once the election was over.  Now we know that Russia was actively engaged in helping Mr. Trump, although we don't know whether he knew it at the time.

        But in your view Ms. Clinton was worse than Mr. Trump?  In what universe?  Trump was being aided by a hostile government.  Hillary Clinton could spot Mr. Trump the first two moves, give him 20 minutes to make them, and still beat him at tic-tac-toe.  It seems to have escaped you that despite the loss, Ms. Clinton had a considerable edge in total votes.

        You are a proponent of the worst development in modern media, "both siderism."  This is the suggestion that in order to balance a negative story about a conservative failure it is necessary to suggest that "both sides do it," that the left is just as bad as the right  This allows you to gloss over the outrageous acts of the right, without ever providing examples from the left equivalent to the racism, misogyny, xenophobia, weapon-brandishing, history of lynching, support for torture, and opposition to science that are the hallmarks of modern conservatism.

        It is not the "leftists" who want "creationism" to be given the same weight as the most profound theory in modern biology.  The far right claims Christianity as its own, then opposes everything Jesus taught, e.g. that it is our moral obligation to feed the hungry and care for the sick.  The far right believes that if a Black person is poor, it is his own fault, but if a white person is poor, it is the fault of the Blacks and Hispanics.

        The overwhelming majority of domestic terrorist attacks in the last decade, the "Obama years," have come from native-born, nominally Christian, American citizens who are right-wing crazies.  The minor contributors to domestic terrorism are American citizens who are fundamentalist Muslims of the sort who embrace right-wing values regarding women, and who cannot possibly be described as "leftist."  Terrorist attacks by the "far left?"  None.  But the far left is just as bad?

        The "far left" wants equal pay and treatment for women, a livable minimum wage, a social safety net for those whose jobs were sent to China, health care for all like they have in EVERY OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRY, progressive tax rates of the sort that gave us the most prosperity in our history, Social Security, support for science (evolution and climate), bank regulation of the sort that prevented bank failures for nearly 80 years (until dismantled in 2003, leading to economic disaster), and support for education.

        We want citizens to be protected from the huge companies that control so much of our culture.  We want alternative sources of energy developed.  We want to protect the environment.  We want our tax money spent on infrastructure that improves lives and employs Americans, instead of on a military that sucks resources into expensive weapons that are then deployed against people armed with rifles and grenades.  As a veteran, I know that my service inspired my patriotism and liberal values.  I want to see more young people in service to the country, not necessarily in the military but in health care and community service.

        What does the right want that is equivalent to those?  They want poor people to starve, and die without care.  They want to kill people in other countries who have done nothing to us.  They want to blow the budget on aircraft carriers deployed against rowboats.

        I remember 15 years ago when you were all for the invasion of Iraq, despite the fact that it was obvious the casus belli was fabricated.  My then 83 (now 97) y.o. mother marched in the streets along with millions of liberals and "leftists" who were right, while you led the cheers for the liars in Washington.   If you ever apologized on the air for being wrong about that event, which cost $2T and killed 100,000 people for a lie, I didn't hear it because I had already stopped listening.

        I understand that you are successful in your field, but so is Rush Limbaugh, and for the same reasons, whether or not you are comfortable being equated with a drug-addicted liar.  You are not the "product," the listening audience is the product that you are selling to the advertisers, and you have the bulliest pulpit in the Bay Area.

        There are enough people here who would rather hear a comforting lie than an uncomfortable truth, and you are happy to oblige.  It does not hurt you either that there is no liberal on the air during your time slot to give your listeners an alternative.  Liberals seem to have a hard time getting on the radio, even in areas where we are the majority.

        Despite all the evidence to the contrary, you present yourself as a reasonable man.  The first stage of recovery from your condition is the recognition that you have it.  Now you know.




    Nice letter. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 04:43:50 PM EST
    That said, I'd offer better than even odds that Mr. Owens will never read it.

    If I might make a friendly suggestion, and at the risk of stating the obviously, please seriously consider mailing a copy of that letter to the station management, the station's corporate ownership, and the advertisers who effectively sponsor Ronn Owens' show.

    If you are able, further provide those advertisers with specific dates, times and examples of Owens' offensive speech. If you can record them off a podcast and include it with your letter, so much the better.

    Then, get your liberal friends and acquaintances to call those advertisers and complain about the hate speech they're sponsoring on the public airwaves, and further encourage them to do the same with their liberal friends.

    Advertisers are acutely aware of their customer base, and are generally willing to respond accordingly and pull their commercials when enough complaints are lodged. It works, for the simple reason that very few sane and rational people desire to have their names, businesses, products and reputations associated publicly with known bigots and hatemongers.

    That's what finally took Rush Limbaugh down a few pegs in the wake of his gross remarks about Georgetown student Sandra Fluke. It wasn't so much the remarks themselves (because he's actually said worse), as it was the adverse publicity which those remarks generated due to the intense public backlash.

    But advertisers were well aware of Limbaugh's penchant for courting controversy prior to the incident, thanks to regular complaints to them about their sponsorship of his program. The Fluke comments were finally the straw that broke the camel's back and sent them fleeing.

    Good luck, and thank you. Aloha.

    Parent

    These are good suggestions (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Towanda on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 03:48:26 PM EST
    and, by the way, whenever I have good things to say, I also always copy the boss.

    (That just got me a delightful exchange of emails with our local newspaper's restaurant reviewer and the editor, as I copied him on a bit of praise for the foodie, a former student.

    (And remembering to praise media when deserved is the way to have attention paid when you have the other sort of comment to say.  I learned this in PR, half a century ago, and it still works.)

    Parent

    my editorial opinion (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by linea on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 08:37:18 PM EST
    I can go to any country in the world and see my personal influence on modern culture.

    it's most certainly a rant but i feel it would never be published as a "letter to the editor" because it is not concise enough (too long!), addresses too many topics, is too self-aggrandizing, and generaly snarky. as a post on this forum, the person you are criticizing is unknown to me so i have no context to evaluate whether you are being fair to him. but that's just my personal opinion.

    Parent

    It's not a letter to the editor, Linea (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Peter G on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 09:24:01 PM EST
    so why does it matter that it's longer than a letter to the editor should be? It's a manifesto. And a damn good one.

    Parent
    Because long rants come accross more crazy (1.00 / 2) (#21)
    by McBain on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 10:08:07 PM EST
    than short concise ones.  

    Parent
    I'm a writer (5.00 / 5) (#30)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 01:24:35 PM EST
    My book is considerably longer than that, but people still read it.

    Because long rants come across more crazy than short concise ones.

    That was actually from a DailyKos diary, which tend to run longer than a FOX News analysis.

    Please elucidate.  Other than the length, which is appropriate to the subject, is there anything in it you find untrue or misleading?

    Or do you just like to ramble about nothing?

    Parent

    You come accross like a grumpy old man (none / 0) (#44)
    by McBain on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 04:48:04 PM EST
    who's out of touch with the country.  How dare KGO not be entirely liberal before Noon! How dare someone criticize liberals for opposing free speech!  The inability to be open minded about other opinions is one of the many reasons Hillary Clinton lost the election.

    If you're writing goal is to entertain, don't change a thing.  If you're trying to educate or influece someone's opinion you're going about it all wrong.

    I disagree with just about everything you said.  One of the differences between you and I is I'm OK with that. I don't have to be surrounded by people who think exactly like I do.  I also live in the SF Bay Area.  Most people I know here are liberal and we get along just fine.  

    Take a deep breath, relax and try to be less combative with your posts otherwise I'll have to start ignoring you again.    


    Parent

    Remedial reading is down the hall (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 08:00:39 PM EST
    How dare KGO not be entirely liberal before Noon!

    Reading comprehension not your strong suit, so I'll help.  He claims NOT to be a conservative, but his words make that a lie.  Why do you suppose a conservative would be embarrassed to reveal his political leanings?  Are YOU embarrassed to be a conservative?

    I don't care that he is conservative, I care that he lies about it.  Also, I'm pointing out that if I am the product that is being sold to the advertisers, the box with my name on it is empty.  If you want to sell advertising, don't you have to have listeners?

    How dare someone criticize liberals for opposing free speech!

    If it is a lie, would you call it out?  It is a lie, I gave the counter examples and he supplied none to support his blanket statement. In essence he said that I was opposed to free speech, when that is a lie.

    This isn't brain surgery.  He lied about me and I told him so.

    The inability to be open minded about other opinions is one of the many reasons Hillary Clinton lost the election.

    I'm sure you can show me an example to support that claim.  Of course you can.  It's right around here somewhere...

    I enjoy your presence here, since it is a window into what it takes to rationalize that side of the political spectrum.

    Do you agree with my characterization of conservatives' failings or my list of "far left" goals?  Apparently you do, or you would have disputed it.

    In one sentence with short words. I don't like being lied about. Like so many conservatives, he had to create his version of a strawman liberal and then beat the heck out of his own creation.  You do the same.

    Parent

    actualy (none / 0) (#48)
    by linea on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 08:40:36 PM EST
    He claims NOT to be a conservative, but his words make that a lie.

    for me, the main issue is - i have no idea who you are talking about. it's a local radio show and this makes it a 20 paragraph rant of a local show i know nothing about.

    oh! by the way, there's this complete azzhole kaur kender and the perv had the skank-balls to puke his book on raadio 2... let me post 20 paragraphs on how i hate this worthess green-mold because nodody knows who the hell i'm talking about.

    full disclosure: it's friday, im getting ready to go out, and im on my second glass of wine.


    Parent

    Then, the thing to do (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Towanda on Wed May 03, 2017 at 06:04:27 PM EST
    If it's not relevant to you is to not comment.  There are many posts her that are not relveant to some of us.  Sometimes, we read and learn new things.  Sometimes, we just scroll on by.

    That gives you more time, too, for more wine.

    Parent

    I have a feeling you consider anyone not (none / 0) (#49)
    by McBain on Fri Apr 28, 2017 at 09:29:47 PM EST
    entirely liberal to to conservative. Are you sure I am?  
    • Voted for and donated money to Obama
    • Against the death penalty
    • Pro abortion
    • An atheist who who believes in evolution

    Lots of people like me... fiscally conservative or libertarian and mostly socially liberal.  Do you know where Owens stands on those issues? I haven't listened to him in years.

    Parent
    oh! a manifesto (none / 0) (#18)
    by linea on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 09:43:06 PM EST
    they made us read the unibomber manifesto at university. yes, this much better.

    Parent
    Of course (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 09:58:57 PM EST
    This is not a letter to the editor, and it was not sent for publication.  I copied it to all the afternoon hosts, who run considerably more liberal.

    As far as my influence on modern culture goes, I took part in the biggest change in modern bicycling, the development and marketing of what is now called the "mountain bike."  Go anywhere in the world today, and you will see these bicycles, which originated when a friend and I rented a garage in 1979 and with $200 started a company that we called "MountainBikes."

    By 1983 every major manufacturer had copied our design, by 1987 the sales of these bikes in the US passed the sales of traditional bicycles, and the name we chose for our company had become the generic name.

    When mountain biking became an Olympic sport in 1996, the rules in use were those I wrote in 1983.

    Parent

    thank you! (none / 0) (#22)
    by linea on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 10:13:00 PM EST
    that was a very polite reply.

    i've never engineered anything and i do understand how impressive that is.

    Parent

    Flying closer to the sun. (none / 0) (#4)
    by KeysDan on Thu Apr 27, 2017 at 03:38:09 PM EST
    Elijah Cummings, ranking member of the House Oversight Committee, has presented documents from the DIA/DOD that suggest that former National Security Advisor for Trump, and foreign policy advisor during the Trump campaign, committed a felony in accepting, without authorization, money from Russi