Saturday Open Thread

I really don't like writing about Donald Trump, he just leaves such a bad taste. In my opinion, he's a sour, dour, spoiled, arrogant, and uninspiring individual, lacking in any identifiable talent and I don't trust a word he says. I have no idea what he really believes. Electing him would really be like buying the proverbial pig in a poke.

Trump's had a bad week. I still don't believe he will win -- I think people are bemused by him, and curious as to what outlandish thing he will do or say next. I doubt his supporters will turn out in big numbers to vote.[More...]

The other night James Corden of the Late Late Show had a montage of Trump's comments slamming America in his monologue. The topic was a new study by the World Health Organization showing that Americans are the third most depressed people in the world (behind only India and China.) It's pretty funny (start at 1'30" into the clip, the beginning is about GW Bush taking up painting and is not that funny.)

Here's the latest from the New York Times on Trump and his "empire."

Bon Jovi sums up why he's supporting Hillary:

“I think that she’s fabulous. I think she’s the right person for the job,” Bon Jovi said. “Her experience speaks volumes and personally I’m blessed to say I know her and trust her. So for the sake of my kids and the country, I’m supporting her.”

In other news: An explosion on a ferry in Bali has killed some foreign tourists.

An explosion on a ferry carrying 30 tourists and four crew members between the Indonesian resort islands of Bali and Lombok has killed two foreigners and injured 18 others, including one passenger whose feet were blown off.

An Austrian woman was killed along with a second female foreigner, whose nationality was still being verified. Two German citizens were injured while nationals from Britain, France, Italy, Portugal, Ireland and Spain were also among the passengers.

Just another reason not to go to Bali.

The Indonesian archipelago of more than 17,000 islands is heavily dependent on ferry services but the industry has a poor safety record and fatal accidents are common. Last year, dozens of tourists were injured when small explosions hit a ferry crossing between Bali and the neighbouring holiday island of Lombok.

In the "Whoops" department, the U.S. today said it killed Syrian government troops by mistake in air raids targeting ISIS.

Jimmy Kimmel is hosting the Emmys. I like Kimmel. I also like Corden and Ellen. Unfortunately, I don't like many American TV shows. El Principe is ending this week, which will leave a big hole in my viewing schedule. The cast is excellent. But the ending is going to be very sad.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

< Medical Updates on Hillary and Trump | ISIS Takes Credit for MN Attack >
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    Hillary up 8 in PA (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 11:19:05 AM EST
    Latest poll -

    Is this a response to DT's awful week using the campaign to promote his new hotel, calling for his supporters to kill his opponent, and claiming to believe Pres. Obama born here, without any explanation or apology?  Fingers crossed.

    A direct result of (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:47:04 PM EST
    Pres Obama's speech the other day?  

    Media allowing Trump camp (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 12:53:33 PM EST
    to get away with smearing Clinton for starting birther comments

    Jake Tapper- Chris Christie on - opposed him at first and Christie was insistent, Tapper said "ok"

    Raddatz said:  "You believe that ...." and let the response go...

    what is wrong with these so-called journalists? I thought they were pissed at Trump for being had. Seems like a tepid response at best. Are they worried if Trump is elected that would be banned members of the so-called press?

    If you keep lying and lying and lying (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 12:59:32 PM EST
    Eventually 41% of Americans will back you simply because you are "strong".

    At least that what my husband says, such constant and persistent liars are "strong" people.


    It's all about dominance (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by ruffian on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 02:50:56 PM EST
    The more the liar gets away with it, the more he is seen to be dominant, and thus strong. There are people that respect that.

    That's why Tappers eye rolling is not enough. Just say out loud that you do not believe the person.


    It's also about (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:43:45 PM EST
    being a bully - and most bullies do not act from strength but from inner insecurity. Call his darn bluff and don't let him weasel out of answering the darned question.  

    But he did (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by FlJoe on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 01:26:38 PM EST
    roll his eyes! Not to excuse Tapper, but this has devolved into a continuous Monty Python sketch, Trump's surrogates are spinning up a complete fable and sticking to it with absolute certainly.

    "So, the birther issue is a done issue," he insisted. "Donald Trump has said it's a done issue now."

    "Just as a point of fact," Tapper replied, "Donald Trump did not accept when Barack Obama released his birth certificate in 2011. He kept up this whole birther thing until Friday, that's five years."

    "That's just not true," Christie shot back. "It's just not true that he kept it up for five years."

    "Sure he did," Tapper stated.

    "It's just not true," Christie continued.

    "It is true," the CNN host said.

    "No, Jake," Christie opined. "It wasn't like he was talking about it on a regular basis until then. And when the issue was raised, he made very clear the other day what he position is."

    "Okay," Tapper concluded wearily.

    (transcript and commentary from Raw Story).

    No doubt that last line should read "Total BS" Tapper concluded angrily(as he cuts Christie's mike).


    How about cutting off the deflection at the start? (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:42:26 PM EST
    Why is it relevant who else participated to the fact that Trump promoted the prejudicial fable for years?  Force him to be accountable for what he did rather than deflecting the attention from his misdeeds, and call him cowardly for not owning what he's said and done. I read a post online somewhere (can't recall) that best way to get to Trump is to point out his cowardice when confronted.

    When he or his surrogates do not answer to question about what they've done by pointing to something someone else did or did not do they sound like 8-year olds.  When he's asked about his taxes, why let him change the subject to what someone else has or has not disclosed?

    Why can't the talking heads stand their own ground?  They are afraid of Trump, it seems. He seems like a bully -- a paper tiger, to me.

    I hope during the debate, Hillary does not get defensive when he deflects, but rather points out that he is trying to weasel out of answering whatever the question is when he tries to deflect.  


    Joy Reid does just this (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by Towanda on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 07:26:19 PM EST
    and the rest of cable media ought to take lessons.

    Yes - she pointed out (none / 0) (#129)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 07:53:06 PM EST
    when the pastor at the Detroit church confronted him, he totally backed down. I wish she were one of the debate moderators.  I'm counting on Lester Holt to find his inner power.

    The "debates" are (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by KeysDan on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 10:58:23 AM EST
    surely viewed as a challenge for the Clinton Campaign--not because of the ability of Mrs. Clinton to clean his clock, but because of Trump's ability to obscure the clock.

    Trump cannot really debate, as was seen in the Republican primaries, being severely handicapped by his ignorance.  Hence, he must rely on distractions, insults, innuendos (he heard this or that), and lies.  Fact checkers will catch them later, but he does not care--who reads those and that's what he has Pence and other shills for to lie about the lies.

      And, of course, Trump will easily convince his deplorables and entertain some others who believe there really is no difference between the candidates. No difference between the center-left policies of Mrs. Clinton and the loony far, far right politics of Trump--politics, since he really has no policies, save for those incoherent ramblings of this one day and that another, and yet another the day after.

    Mrs. Clinton will not be able to rely upon the moderators to call out Trump on even the most egregious matter, or be given enough opportunity to respond.  Trump needs to show that he is not just any old buffoon, but a buffoon who is fit to be president. So, he may dance between pure buffoonery and teleprompter-Mexican president diplomatic buffoonery.

    So what to do?  The best bet would be for Mrs. Clinton to be herself.  Do not let him get away with anything, but also, do not let him set the agenda so that all the time is spent defending the absurdity that is the Trump candidacy. Secretary Clinton should think of Trump as the collection of Republicans she met with for 11 hours.  The injection of humor will be needed but a difficult balance--no humor and she will be dour.  Above all, be well rested.


    True (none / 0) (#145)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 04:35:02 AM EST
    Mrs. Clinton will not be able to rely upon the moderators to call out Trump on even the most egregious matter,

    That is not the moderators job, to call out what they believe are lies, that is what Clinton is there for. The moderator should then ask Madame Sec if she disagrees with The Donald. It is up to Madame Sec to point out The Donalds lies, not the moderator.
    Crowley put her thumb on the scale in the Romney Obama debates, and was proven to have been incorrect also, a double error on her part

    So what to do?  The best bet would be for Mrs. Clinton to be herself.  Do not let him get away with anything, but also, do not let him set the agenda so that all the time is spent defending the absurdity that is the Trump candidacy.

    I couldn't watch more than 10 minutes of any of the republican or Democrat debates. I will start with this one, but can't envision myself getting past 10 minutes either.

    Not happy with either candidate and am expecting 4 tumultuous years afterwards


    Josh Marshall (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Nemi on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 06:47:28 AM EST
    has a great take on that episode with Pastor Timmons ... and what followed: The Fever Inside. A few 'highlights':

    Trump lives in a psychic economy of aggression and domination. [...] Every attack he receives, every ego injury must be answered, rebalanced with some new aggression to reassert dominance.
    Trump is injured by attacks and slights as we all are. But for Trump they create an inner turbulence which forces an almost peristaltic response.
    Only a few hours before that [WaPo, Robert Costa] tarmac interview, Trump was rebuked to his face with cameras rolling by an African-American woman. It may have been the boldest rebuke Trump has received from a 'civilian' (not another candidate in a debate, or a journalist in an interview) in this entire campaign cycle. She even placed her hand on him in calling him to account.
    As usual, Trump's reaction was characteristically meek in the moment. But internally he clearly seethed.

    Bolding mine. There's so much 'interweaving' in the article that I recommend reading the whole piece.


    And (none / 0) (#147)
    by Nemi on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 07:10:16 AM EST
    in a so-called Twitter 'storm' Josh Marshall expands on the boldness of Pastor Simmons.

    Apologies (none / 0) (#148)
    by Nemi on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 09:23:41 AM EST
    to pastor Faith Green Timmons for misspelling her name. :(

    It spread and spread (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 01:38:40 PM EST
    to morons wuth no critical thinking skills. And to right wing talk radio hosts and their loyal listeners.

    Amongst them it spread like the proverbial wildfire.

    Of course.

    Is that your defense? (5.00 / 5) (#91)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 02:09:39 PM EST
    ...of why Trump ran with it for five years when any idiot could see it was bogus?

    Why don't you ask Hillary why she started it.

    First, of course, show me Hillary's public statement that she didn't believe Obama was a citizen.  You can't.  What do they call people who say stuff that isn't true?

    If you know.

    Second, please explain why "presidential material" would fall for such a loony theory, and run with it for five years.  Are you suggesting that Hillary controls Trump's mind?  If so, it says she is powerful and he is an idiot.  Is THAT your defense, that Hillary is really smart, and Trump is an idiot?

    Because she didn't start it (5.00 / 5) (#100)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:26:03 PM EST
    What we do know is that for years your candidate pushed this lie, with nothing to back it up.  Then he pushed it some more after the birth certificate was released.  The only reason he's finally flip-flopped years later is because he wants votes and he thinks there are a few idiots out there who he hasn't yet duped.

    His retraction was so lame (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 07:55:56 PM EST
    I don't think anyone's buying it.

    So True (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by FlJoe on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 08:39:36 AM EST
    Donald Trump Is Teaching the Whole World How to Lie
    Donald Trump lies practically every time he opens his mouth. That's hardly even notable anymore. What is still notable is the corrosive effect he has on nearly everyone who enters his orbit. His kids lie without compunction. His spokespeople lie without compunction. His campaign manager--until recently a fairly normal conservative--lies without compunction. His surrogates lie without compunction. Everyone who spends any time around him seems to inhale the lesson that in the modern media environment, there's simply no penalty for lying, no matter how obvious the lies are.
    Before he hooked up with Trump, Christie was a relatively normal politician. He'd spin, he'd exaggerate, he'd evade, and he'd conceal. But now he doesn't bother. He just tells simpleminded lies with no evident concern for the fact that he'll get called out on them. Trump has taught him that being fact checked doesn't matter. Getting air time for the lie is all that matters.
    (my bold)

    Gov. Christie learned how to lie ... (none / 0) (#137)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 11:48:56 AM EST
    ... long before he ever hooked up with Trump, if the federal prosecutors trying two of his former aides in the George Washington Bridge scandal are to be believed:

    New York Times | September 19, 2016
    Chris Christie Knew About Bridge Lane Closings as They Happened, Prosecutors Say - "Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey knew that his close associates were involved in a plan to shut down lanes leading to the George Washington Bridge as it was happening and that the closings were intended to punish a local mayor for declining to support him, prosecutors said on Monday. It was the first time Mr. Christie, a Republican, has been accused of knowing about the scheme as it unfolded. The prosecutors made the assertion during opening statements in the trial of two former Christie administration officials charged with closing the lanes in 2013 and then covering it up."

    Not good.


    Couldn't have come at a worse time (none / 0) (#139)
    by jondee on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 12:11:21 PM EST
    for Christie; with he and Rush Limbaugh still locked in a behind-the-scenes power struggle to head the influential organization known by the acronym OWT: Over-Stuffed Windbags For Trump..

    ... it was always inconceivable to me that Gov. Christie's ENTIRE inner circle at the New Jersey Statehouse in Trenton would undertake such a scheme without him ever being informed about it. (Personally, I believe that Christie probably ordered his staff to find some way to ratfck Ft. Lee's mayor, and likely didn't care how that happened.)

    One rogue person, maybe two, I could perhaps see it happening -- but not his entire executive team. Speaking as a former senior staffer, there is no way I'd have ever allowed myself to be the patsy or fall guy over a matter of such obviously questionable ethics.

    So, the notion that nine people would willingly jeopardize their professional reputations and careers on behalf of the boss just flies completely counter to my own experience in that public realm.



    I think (none / 0) (#141)
    by FlJoe on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 04:28:02 PM EST
    he got lucky with the terrorist attack, this story, along with his "the parrot's not dead" skit will be buried or forgotten. We could all hope that will be his swan song on the national scene.

    Unarmed Black man shot dead by Tulsa police (5.00 / 2) (#143)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 07:16:57 PM EST
    If you are Black, car trouble is deadly.  The link is to a Black man who had suffered a head injury in a crash, and may not have been fully cognizant.  So the cop shot him dead.

    Here is the latest honest, churchgoing, non-criminal, unarmed Black man shot dead by police while his hands were in the air.

    We need McBain to help us understand why the motorist was responsible for getting shot while cooperating.

    If there hadn't been video footage, he would have been shot while "charging" police.  But there was video, because Tulsa police responded to a report of a stalled car with three cruisers and a helicopter.

    Did you hear the conmentary (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 12:13:08 PM EST
    By the ahole cops in the helo? "That looks like a really bad dude" by individuals who knew NOTHING about the man with his hands in the air. Knew nearly NOTHING about the situation at hand. But hey, it's a really big black dude so he must be bad. No, there's no racism amongst law enforcement. Can't possibly happen here.

    What a coincidence: (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 10:03:13 PM EST
    The officer who shot him said previously she thought Crutcher might have beeen on PCP, and, now, ta da!
    Tulsa Police Sgt. Dave Walker told the Tulsa World on Tuesday that investigators did recover a vial of PCP, the hallucinogen also known as Angel Dust, in his SUV.

    In case my position is not clear, I find it extremely questionable that she decides in a couple seconds interaction that he's on PCP, and then, lo and behold, PCP turns up in his car.

    Is PCP even a thing any more?

    Anyone with first-hand knowledge?


    that's ridiculous (none / 0) (#158)
    by linea on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 10:24:33 PM EST
    the police did not plant pcp in the car. that's loony conspiracy nonsense. people on pcp behave differently than people on meth and im sure as a lew-enforcement officer she has been well-trained in identifying this behaviour.

    There are innumerable instances on record (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by Peter G on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 11:00:50 PM EST
    of American police planting drugs on suspects to cover up their own wrongdoing. Not every case, for sure; not even most cases. But far from something that can be dismissed out of hand by someone with no actual knowledge of the case or of the general subject.

    When I lived in 'Nawlins (none / 0) (#177)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 02:13:53 PM EST
    one heard all kinds of stories about cop malfeasance on a regular basis -- to the point where it had stopped being unsettling, and become a sort of standing nod nod wink wink example of the eccentric and charming folkways of the city..

    Almost as amusing as the folklore of the ridiculously corrupt Louisiana politician..

    Finally one cop who was caught with his pants too far down even by New Orleans standards, cut a plea deal and spilled the beans with tales about city cop's sop of carrying a spare, untraceable gun for planting purposes that they called a "ham sandwich"..of cops administering "wood shampoos"
    to homeless people..planting drugs..and even planting people (in the ground) on occasion..

    Some posters around these precincts need to get out a little more often.



    PCP? Really? (none / 0) (#160)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 11:15:58 PM EST
    I am definitely out of that particular loop, but PCP seems to me to be that Suuuper Sceeery drug that we got dire warnings about HS way back in the 80's, but I'm not sure it's really a thing these days.

    But I don't know, which is why I asked.


    googled it (none / 0) (#161)
    by linea on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 11:48:25 PM EST
    and got headlines like this: "The hallucinogen PCP plagues the African American neighborhoods of southeast DC." it's mostly meth and heroin and sake-abuse (LoL) where i live but i dont live in an African American neighborhood.

    So now there's this re: PCP (none / 0) (#165)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 03:02:46 PM EST
    The Tulsa World reported that officers used force against Crutcher at least four times, including a 2012 arrest on public intoxication and obstruction complaints. According to a probable cause affidavit in that case, an officer used a stun gun on Crutcher twice while he was face down on the ground because the officer said Crutcher didn't comply with at least three orders to show his hands. Crutcher's father showed up while he was being arrested and told the officers that his son had "an ongoing problem" with PCP," the affidavit states.

    Update: Tulsa PD Officer Betty Shelby ... (none / 0) (#184)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 06:11:14 PM EST
    ... has been charged with felony first-degree manslaughter in the death of Terence Crutcher.

    First degree manslaughter (5.00 / 1) (#185)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 06:30:50 PM EST
    also known in many jurisdictions as "voluntary manslaughter," is typically defined as an intentional killing without "malice aforethought." Most common fact patterns are "heat of passion" (sudden and uncontrollable, even if understandable, anger; a/k/a "hot blooded" as opposed to "cold blooded" killing) and a sincere but unreasonable belief that the circumstances would justify the use of deadly force, such as a wrongful invocation of self-defense or law enforcement. Sounds like the DA's theory here would be the last of these categories.

    wel... (none / 0) (#152)
    by linea on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 08:38:04 PM EST
    the first incident is (apparently) old news. it was presented to a jury and a guilty verdict was not reached and the prosecution declined a re-trial.

    also, i feel your insinuation that the police officer acted out of racial malice is based on nothing at all. personally i would feel very frightened if some enraged man was pounding on my door at 2:30am yelling loudly and erratically pacing the sidewalk.

    the second incident we know almost nothing about. it seems to me, and im obviously not an expert, that the man was disobediant walking toward his car and then started to reach inside. i would be interested in reading the police reports.


    It used to be (none / 0) (#153)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 09:24:17 PM EST
    That NYS Troopers were all (it seemed that way) over 6', and 200 + pounds. And then add the smokey hat on them. They were a intimidating presence. Most LEO's were on the large size.

    Until maybe 20, 30 years ago.

    Height and weight requirements were removed from hiring consideration.

    JMO, but a physically imposing officer might be less inclined , or have less need , to use deadly force.

    My friend, a retired NYS trooper, was physically imposing, 6 ft 5", 250 lbs. Never pulled his weapon, and did not have 1 complaint filed against him.

    Now I know you cannot have a police force consisting solely of huge specimens, but I feel that the removal or diminishing of physical standards for LEO's have hurt their effectiveness.
    For some of the more diminutive officers, the sole source of intimidation that they have over a unruly crowd or individual, may be the weapon on their hip.


    I worked in the state hospital (5.00 / 3) (#179)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 02:30:29 PM EST
    for awhile. Miraculously, no matter how big and strong a patient was, and how far over the edge a patient went (and a lot of them went way way over the edge), I never heard about one who needed to be gunned down, or tased, or asphyxiated with a chokehold, or beaten into a coma, or stomped on by the tiny Japanese women from Godzilla, because they "refused to cooperate"..

    It's really quite extraordinary..

    Three strong men can get anyone down and handcuffed, if their intent is strictly that (doing their f*cking job, in other words) and not to "get out their adrenaline" by teaching someone a lesson about what happens when you resist.



    i an adamantly (none / 0) (#154)
    by linea on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 09:37:08 PM EST
    opposed to any height or strength requirements for police officers. i want my police force composed entirely of 155cm Japanese women with cattle-prods and six-shooters. yes, im serious.

    Well (none / 0) (#155)
    by TrevorBolder on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 09:39:07 PM EST
    We certainly differ on that one.
    With a larger physically fit police force, I feel there would be less incidents.
    With some of these new officers, I feel they are often intimidated , unlike when the large officer was the intimidating presence.

    i would prefer (none / 0) (#162)
    by linea on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 11:58:13 PM EST
    drunk 20-something males be stuned helpless by three petite Japanese police women with cattle-prods than wrestled to the ground by a large male. but that's just my utopia.

    What the hell? (5.00 / 4) (#172)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 08:45:11 AM EST
    Welcome to Troll Right (5.00 / 2) (#173)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 08:56:39 AM EST
    please explain (none / 0) (#190)
    by linea on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 07:12:44 PM EST
    trevor wants police to be big burly males.

    i want women police officers.

    what is "troll right" about any of that??


    i expected more support (none / 0) (#189)
    by linea on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 07:10:11 PM EST
    for my position on a liberal blog.

    i would like to see more police women and i dont feel muscling people should be part of the job.


    Bahahahaha! The sane answer to crazy (none / 0) (#193)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 08:30:20 PM EST
    Is not crazier

    you know... (none / 0) (#196)
    by linea on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 08:51:39 PM EST
    trevor didnt laugh at me and he 100% disagrees with me. i'm going to assume your opposition to woman police is an american thing.

    Well I'm laughing at you (none / 0) (#200)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 11:29:26 PM EST
    And I can cuz Murika ;)

    And you didn't just want women officers (none / 0) (#194)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 08:34:25 PM EST
    You were much more specific than that and demanded an ethnicity and body type....woooboy

    Then you dissed those women by suggesting in the end it was going to take a man to finally subdue danger...Lawd Lawd Lawd


    Sorry, I was wrong (none / 0) (#195)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 08:37:26 PM EST
    You just demanded a stereotyped woman rather than a stereotyped man...very Liberal of you ;)

    i feel (none / 0) (#197)
    by linea on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 09:11:05 PM EST
    you are going out of your way to misinterpret me and make fun of me.

    the "in my utopia" idiom should have been clear.

    i feel the requirements for police in america exclude the typical petite women. specifically mentioning Japanese was just being colorful but i do feel strongly that asian women are not being recruited or hired for police positiond and i completely disagree with the height and strength requirements for police and feel they are very exclusionary.

    i really would like if you tried to understand me (smile).


    Words matter (none / 0) (#199)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 11:27:28 PM EST
    I'm not going out of my way. It's glaringly obvious

    Where is your evidence that Asian women are being blocked from being hired as police officers?


    i'm sorry (none / 0) (#201)
    by linea on Fri Sep 23, 2016 at 12:27:03 AM EST
    i ddn't mean to make you mad at me. i never said i was as smart as you and i dont want to argue with you. i know you are very respected here and i dont have your knowledge or your experience. im sorry i posted on things that i didnt have properly thought out and didnt explain properly. i would really like if we were friends.

    Why do think I'm mad? (none / 0) (#203)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Sep 23, 2016 at 01:09:08 PM EST
    Does respect go with blogging? I don't know. For a place described as Talkleft though, it was an objectifying way to champion the feminist cause.

    serious, and apparently off your meds. (none / 0) (#178)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 02:16:18 PM EST
    not to put too fine a point on it.

    {sigh} (none / 0) (#191)
    by linea on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 07:15:27 PM EST
    i'm saying; more women police, more non-leathal tools, fewer bullets.

    because i'm such a crazy right-wing troll (that's either sarcasm or sardonic).


    Elizabeth (5.00 / 2) (#151)
    by FlJoe on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 05:37:55 PM EST
    Warren is awesome. Just wow, 'I'll take that as a no" is classic.

    A must read (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Nemi on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 07:46:38 AM EST
    especially for journalists, who should be hanging their heads in shame. Yet noone probably will.

    If Clinton loses, blame the email controversy and the media. Just a few snippets:

    Few presidential candidates have been more fully prepared to assume the duties of the presidency than is Clinton. Yet, her many accomplishments as first lady, U.S. senator, and secretary of State barely surfaced in the news coverage of her candidacy at any point in the campaign. She may as well as have spent those years baking cookies.
    Clinton's emails and the accompanying narrative -- "she can't be trusted" -- have been a defining feature of coverage from the campaign's start. Only occasionally have reporters taken the narrative a step further.
    As for Clinton's policy proposals and presidential qualifications, they've been completely lost in the glare of damaging headlines and sound bites.

    Hoping Lester Holt (none / 0) (#175)
    by BackFromOhio on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 10:56:14 AM EST
    reads the article.  

    Nicholas Glenn (1.00 / 3) (#34)
    by thomas rogan on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 09:50:22 PM EST
    Yet another black man shooting cops in cold blood.  There is no comparison between this and cops (black or white) shooting black suspects because of an honest error in the moment about the amount of danger or whether a gun looked like a real gun or was a BB gun.  Maybe Colin Kaepernick will protest this one.

    When the SSB was written (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 11:05:15 PM EST
    ...Kaepernick's Black ancestors in the "land of the free" were slaves.  The third verse celebrates the punishment of escaped slaves...in the "Land of the free!"

    And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
    That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
    A home and a Country should leave us no more?
    Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.
    No refuge could save the hireling and slave
    From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave
    And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
    O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    White guys never think about their slave ancestors.  Why is that?


    ... your stereotyping of African Americans as criminals and thugs. Some people seem to believe that we never get enough of that around here.

    Tulsa (none / 0) (#144)
    by Dadler on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 07:22:12 PM EST
    how droll (none / 0) (#1)
    by linea on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 05:42:51 PM EST
    the usa funds and arms islamists to attack and kill the Syrian Army but acts all embarrassed when they do it directly? so i take it the super expensive high-tech weapons and all sorts of technical support and military advisors and giant bundles of cash isnt a proxy war?

    tv shows (none / 0) (#2)
    by linea on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 05:46:50 PM EST
    how about The Ketterling Incident and Fleabag?

    Ketterling (none / 0) (#95)
    by KD on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 02:50:31 PM EST
    Is it about aliens or mutations from the radioactive waste? It's never made clear. A lot of people keep complaining about their dull life in a beautiful setting though.

    dunno (none / 0) (#113)
    by linea on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 04:49:07 PM EST
    i just started watching it and i thought i was going to be about her fugue states... and whether she killed her little sister before she was sent to the asylum.  but then it kinda went the direction of radioactive waste and (aliens?) in the last couple episodes. or maybe she's in a fugue state? im confused. gawd, she's so tall and desirably thin... i need to starve myself.

    update (none / 0) (#192)
    by linea on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 07:50:32 PM EST
    Fleabag is highly recommended (by me)

    Pretty accurate take (none / 0) (#3)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 05:59:08 PM EST
    he's a sour, dour, spoiled, arrogant, and uninspiring individual, lacking in any identifiable talent and I don't trust a word he says. I have no idea what he really believes. Electing him would really be like buying the proverbial pig in a poke.

    Unfortunately, this is a change election, close to 70% of the those polled think the country is heading in the wrong direction.
    Madame Sec is just more of the same,

    As Colin Powell stated (one of the kinder things)    She is not transformational.

    All that is keeping this very close, closer than anyone could ever have expected.

    Madame Sec needs the Obama coalition to turn out in the same numbers as they did for him, perhaps they will feel the urgency as we get closer to election day

    A change election? (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 06:58:56 PM EST
    Is there something wrong with plummeting unemployment, a rescued economy, no invasions by mistake, reduced teenage pregnancy rates, medical coverage for 15 million Americans who didn't have it, etc., etc.?

    What is it about improving the country that needs to be "changed?"

    Quick question, thanks to Saint Ronnie of the Arms for Hostages: Are you better off now than you were eight years ago?  Because every indicator I can find says we are vastly improved.  What has gone downhill in your life thanks to President Obama?

    If you know.


    Yes (none / 0) (#10)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:23:26 PM EST
    A change election.
    Almost always after 8 years, Americans throw out the party that has been running things. Every journalist also claims it as a change election.

    Well, 8 years ago the black populace was better off than they are today. Black unemployment rate is double that of whites. 9.5 %. And black youth the unemployment rate is 19%

    This economy has helped the rich, stockholders, the Fed's main purpose was to keep the market primed. 0% interest rates forces money into the stock market, they love it.

    We lost high paying jobs, replaced with lower paying service jobs, or part time jobs. Or those out of work have just given up and left the job market.
    American middle class has not had a raise in 20 years, so yes, this is a change election
    America is less respected throughout the world today than 8 years ago, Now imagine that. Tough to wrap your head around that one.
    Our former allies in the Middle East are no longer, our new ally is Iran, and they threaten to shoot down out planes and warships.
    The Russian reset, our relations with Russia haven't been this poor since prior to Reagan. Russian reset, or Romney reliving the cold war. Well baby , it is back.
    China setting up military installations in the China sea, Japan ready to go nuclear.
    I guess stepping back from the leadership position in the world has not had Obama's desired result. But it had a easily predicted result.
    Yes, this is a change election.  


    You just make stuff up (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Yman on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:50:16 PM EST
    Well, 8 years ago the black populace was better off than they are today. Black unemployment rate is double that of whites. 9.5 %. And black youth the unemployment rate is 19%

    Eight years ago, black unemployment was 11.3% and climbing rapidly.  Right now it is 8.1% and falling.

    Do you really think that people are just going to accept what you say because they don't know any better?


    No (none / 0) (#19)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:05:46 PM EST
    I looked at the 1st article that came up, The Atlantic, it was dated Dec 2015

    Black unemployment rate in 2007, with "W" was 8.3%
    So 9 years later, as Obama is leaving , they are going no where.
    The official Bureau of Labor Statistics unemployment rate for black youth is 19.2 percent -- about one-third of the rate Trump uses. (Washington Post 3 days ago)

    And the point still remains the same...

    This is a change election


    Nice Cherry (none / 0) (#22)
    by FlJoe on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:20:48 PM EST
    picking, you just "happen" to pick a rate close to the peak of Bush's bubble, outside of the 8 year time frame of this thread, then you compare the overall rate to the youth numbers. Quite a little shell game you have going there.

    BTW: You don't hear too much about last week's Census report that had very good news on rising household incomes and encouraging news on declining poverty. Another media fail.


    Yes (none / 0) (#23)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:27:49 PM EST
    It was the 1st article that popped up on the google search, I went back and checked the date after being duly informed.

    And it is still a change election.

    Most people think the country is heading in the wrong direction.


    I think (none / 0) (#24)
    by Chuck0 on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:37:52 PM EST
    I am a magical wizard. Doesn't mean it is true.

    Did (none / 0) (#26)
    by FlJoe on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:42:36 PM EST
    it not occur to you to google 2008-2009 UE, or are you dumb or just lazy? If I didn't know better I would think you were trying to pull a fast one, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and just say deplorably dumb.

    BTW: I don't see your boy McMullen as much of a change agent.


    A big change (none / 0) (#27)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:50:54 PM EST
    From the current administration

    Obama's job approval rating (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by MKS on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 09:09:57 PM EST
    is plus 10, or thereabouts according to Gallup.

    "The point" was your false claims (none / 0) (#44)
    by Yman on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:34:18 PM EST
    ... and the fact that you're now trying to backpedal and play with numbers and dates because you've been caught ... again.

    What you said:

    Well, 8 years ago the black populace was better off than they are today. Black unemployment rate is double that of whites. 9.5 %. And black youth the unemployment rate is 19%.

    Eight years ago was September, 2008.  The black unemployment rate was 11.3% and climbing, as opposed to now, when it's 8.1% and falling.  You're now trying to use 2007 black unemployment numbers (9 years ago - before W's recession) and comparing that to today's black youth unemployment numbers - which are always higher than black unemployment overall.

    Let me know which you need more help with - the basic math (2016 minus 8) or comparing apples to apples (2008 black unemployment versus 2016 black unemployment - hint, it's different than the youth rate).


    And your point (none / 0) (#55)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 04:54:05 AM EST
    My point is



    Yippee (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by ding7777 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 02:43:47 AM EST
    <blockquote>IT IS A CHANGE ELECTION

    I hope you're correct and the nutty right-wing obstructionist congress critters (aka Republicans) are voted out.

    The country (and Hillary) deserve a functional legislative branch


    You keep saying that (none / 0) (#59)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 05:33:41 AM EST
    ...as though repetition makes it true.

    EVIDENCE is what makes things true.  Got any?


    Well (none / 0) (#60)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 05:52:16 AM EST
    That was the whole point of my post, that it is a change election.
    No one seems to be disputing that, but they are attacking percentage points used in 1 small aspect of the post.
    I just want to remind the posters that there may a % point difference in 1 part of the post,

    which was the whole point of my post


    No incumbent (none / 0) (#61)
    by jmacWA on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 07:14:53 AM EST
    EVERY election where the incumbent does not run is a change election.  A point can be made in my mind that every election is a CHANGE election to the opposition party.  I can say that I am tiring of your incessant repletion, but that's just me.

    no (none / 0) (#18)
    by linea on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:03:55 PM EST
    i'm not better off now than i was eight years ago.

    my friends have two part-time jobs because the labour market is flooded with migrant workers drivng down wages, H1b and H2 visas are putting people out of work, and huge corporations are operating on a skeleton crew and 80% of their workers as pretend "contract workers" who show up for work when told but have absolutely no employee benefits including medical... and i will be forced to pay a $2000 obama-care penalty next year because im too poor to afford medical care that i wish i had.

    so no, i'm not better off. if hillary wanted to do something she could get rid of the H1b and H2 scams and the absolute farce of "contract workers" who punch a clock but are Indistinguishable from an actual employee. but that's not going to happen.


    So (none / 0) (#11)
    by FlJoe on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:49:38 PM EST
    now Colin Powell is an expert on transformation, what happened to his gig as expert liar?

    I will take his word on that international pariah thingy, he most definitely has a track record there.


    Change Smange, It Ain't the Important Thing (none / 0) (#123)
    by RickyJim on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 05:37:46 PM EST
    In this election I wont't consider voting for Donald Trump because, not even considering the policies he claims to support, it is too dangerous having him as POTUS.

    1. No ability or even desire to look for subtleties in issues.
    2. An over 60% 4 pinocchio ratio for his statements as determined by WaPo, factcheck.org, politifact.com, etc.  In other words, most statements he makes are false.
    3. Ridiculous claims on how good his judgment is on issues he knows next to nothing about.
    4. Has no rapport with any foreign leader except Putin.
    5. A reliance on discredited science and scientists, like Dr. Oz, climate deniers, etc.
    6. Doesn't read any books, including, despite his claims, the Bible.

    I could go on and on but I invite the readers here to add to the list why it is much riskier to have Trump as President than Clinton, based on personal characteristics alone.

    Tony Schwartz Has a Big List (none / 0) (#126)
    by RickyJim on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 07:06:01 PM EST
    The Media (none / 0) (#4)
    by mogal on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 06:45:19 PM EST
    ....needs to do their job, and just maybe after being duped at the Trump hotel opening they will wake up to the fact he is "lacking in any identifiable talent." and that he can not be trusted.

    the media (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by linea on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 06:49:44 PM EST
    needs to do their job and expain to all the stupid people who aren't as smart as you that DT is horrible and nobody should vote for him?

    Matt Taibbi (none / 0) (#8)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:12:44 PM EST
    Strikes Again!!

    yes! (none / 0) (#9)
    by linea on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:19:16 PM EST
    i read the article and i feel he is right. was i wrong to para-phrase?

    Stupid people - your words (none / 0) (#13)
    by vicndabx on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:50:03 PM EST
    Nobody here said that. Nonetheless, Donald Trump IS horrible and ill suited to lead this nation.

    Yes, the media does need to do a better job covering the policies of each and discussing DT's conflicts of interest. Just like they did with Hillary.


    That would be a start (none / 0) (#16)
    by Yman on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:52:03 PM EST
    I know you just want TV to be entertaining, but some things are a little more important.

    TV is entertainment (none / 0) (#21)
    by linea on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:20:01 PM EST
    If you want journalism read The Drudge Report or The Huffington Post or something. LoL

    Oh, ... dear, ... gawd (5.00 / 8) (#36)
    by Yman on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:07:54 PM EST
    I think she's serious.

    i am serious (none / 0) (#114)
    by linea on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 04:53:08 PM EST
    No (none / 0) (#17)
    by FlJoe on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:03:15 PM EST
    we want the media to tell the truth rather than cater to the  lowest common denominator of ignorance that gets them the proper ratings or page views.

    The Media (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 06:59:48 PM EST
    ...are plural.  The medium is singular.

    Sorry, RR, but I truly think (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Peter G on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 09:40:43 PM EST
    it's too late to salvage "media," as an English word, as grammatically being the Latin plural of "medium."

    Oh come on (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 11:05:42 PM EST
    He has an incredible talent for effing people over, and smiling the whole time. He has jilted and screwed over so many contractors and subcontractors that if you do anything for him at all you are asking for it.

    Officially I am not asking for it. I want nothing of this man ever, nor am I willing to ever do anything for him at any originally agreed upon price or what I would then end up settling for.


    Apperson convicted of attempted 2nd degree murder (none / 0) (#12)
    by McBain on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:49:55 PM EST
    for shooting at George Zimmerman.
    A Florida man was found guilty Friday of attempted second-degree murder, stemming from a 2015 road rage incident involving George Zimmerman, a court spokeswoman said.
    Matthew Apperson, 27, also was found guilty of shooting into a vehicle and aggravated assault with a firearm, Michelle Kennedy, spokeswoman for the 18th Judicial Circuit, said.

    A jury deliberated for four hours. Apperson will be sentenced October 17.

    At the time of the indecent, many in the media reported the event as "GZ involved in shooting", as if it was his fault.  

    Once again (none / 0) (#32)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 09:45:43 PM EST
    Hard to pick one of those two to root for.

    NCAA Football, Week 3: Hello, Louisville! (none / 0) (#15)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 07:51:39 PM EST
    Any lingering doubts about No. 10 Louisville being a legitimate championship contender were likely dispelled this afternoon with the Cardinals' systematic 63-20 a$$whuppin' of No. 2 Florida State, in a game that wasn't nearly as close as the final score would otherwise indicate.

    After taking the short hop to Oxford, No. 1 Alabama overcame a sluggish start and a 21-pt. first-half deficit to surge ahead of No. 19 Mississippi in the 3rd quarter, and then held on for dear life at the end for an exciting 48-43 victory.

    Nebraska coach Mike Riley's Cornhuskers did something today that Riley's Oregon State Beavers were rarely able to accomplish, and that's beat the No. 22 Oregon Ducks, 35-32. I for one would love to know what Oregon coach Mark Helfrich was thinking when he eschewed kicking the extra point after all five of the Ducks' touchdowns, opting instead to go for the 2-pt. conversions. Oregon converted only one of those five attempts, and that ultimately proved costly. No doubt, Helfrich is going to be second-guessed mightily for such questionable play-calling, and deservedly so.

    And hat's off to North Dakota State, who proved that they can indeed hang with the big boys. The Bison went toe-to-toe with No. 13 Iowa on the road in Kinnick Stadium, and eventually outlasting the Hawkeyes, 23-21, in a real thriller that was won on the game's final play. Some pundits are calling this a major upset, but I'll have to disagree. North Dakota State is the five-time defending NCAA FCS (formerly Div. 1-AA) champion. The Bison are the real deal, and the school really ought to consider elevating the program to D-1 status.


    2 bombings today (none / 0) (#20)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:19:29 PM EST
    Pipe bombs in NJ, along the route of a Marine run,

    And a dumpster just blew up in Chelsea, NY



    both explosions apparently caused by IUDs (1.00 / 1) (#41)
    by The Addams Family on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:18:05 PM EST
    Planned Parenthood strikes again

    Cenk Uygur's tweet on Chelsea explosion (none / 0) (#53)
    by The Addams Family on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 01:02:12 AM EST
    I don't understand what the NYC [mayor] is saying about Chelsea. What do they mean the blast was intentional but no credible threat against city?

    There was also (none / 0) (#56)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 04:55:57 AM EST
    A second device found that did not go off,

    A pressure ecooker


    Very interesting and (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 08:41:21 PM EST
    I agree. Interesting and inconvenient (5.00 / 7) (#35)
    by Peter G on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 09:50:59 PM EST
    to see how much Tr*mp has changed for the worse since those days, 20 years ago, when he professed views that were pro-choice and apparently anti-discrimination. My suspicion is that the consistent theme is that he professes (but does not genuinely hold) whatever beliefs he perceives at that moment to be to his immediate advantage.

    So the good that men do (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:14:50 PM EST
    is interred with their bones while the evil lives on?

    Somehow I don't think anything Trump has done, is doing or will do, outside of giving up, would be acceptable to the denizens of TalkLeft.


    "The good" - -heh (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Yman on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:25:24 PM EST
    You mean when Trump uses charges of  anti-semitism and racism as a weapon to try to win a zoning battle so he can make money?

    Even the Anti-Defamation League in New York, which in a 1994 battle forced Palm Beach's Sailfish Club to open up its membership, was concerned that Mr. Trump was using the charge of anti-Semitism for his own mercantile ends. The league's national director, Abraham Foxman, met with Mr. Trump soon after to air his concerns. According to Mr. Foxman, Mr. Trump agreed to modify his claims to allege only that the town council has treated Mar-a-Lago unfairly, compared with other clubs in town.

    Why would anyone expect him to  do otherwise?


    Trump's birtherism (none / 0) (#29)
    by MKS on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 09:23:20 PM EST
    and comments about Judge Curiel shows us he is a racist.

    Or cynically panders to them (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 09:40:42 PM EST
    to curry favor; the way almost every Republican is forced to these days.

    The idea is to do what Rush the Scat-muncher does: redirect the rage of the great downsized and outsourced to those lower down in the pecking order.


    Really?? (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:08:48 PM EST
    Exactly what does question if a candidate was born in the USA have to do with race??

    As for the judge, Trump was pointing out that the judges HL background and membership in clubs called into question his ability to judge.

    You can't claim to be for equality and deny people to question.


    They can "question" all they want (5.00 / 3) (#40)
    by Yman on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:16:16 PM EST
    And when they/your questions are racist, they can also be called on it.

    BTW - Donald wasn't "questioning".  He was pushing a racist conspiracy theory with absolutely ZERO evidence to support it - which he continued to do even after Obama put him and the rest of you birthers in your place.


    Obama was questioned (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by MKS on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:24:52 PM EST
    because he was black.  As Bernie Sanders has pointed out, his father was not born in this country but no one asked to see his birth certificate.

    And saying a Judge cannot be fair because of his or her ethnic background is the definition of racism, as admitted by Paul Ryan.


    Hillary did the same (1.00 / 3) (#58)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 05:03:08 AM EST

    Obama campaign manager David Plouffe accused the Clinton campaign Monday of "shameful offensive fear-mongering" by circulating a photo as an attempted smear.

    "The photo, taken in 2006, shows the Democrat front-runner dressed as a Somali Elder, during his visit to Wajir, a rural area in northeastern Kenya," the Drudge Report said. The photo created huge buzz in political circles and immediately became known as "the 'dressed' photo," reflecting the Drudge terminology.

    Plouffe said in a statement: "On the very day that Senator Clinton is giving a speech about restoring respect for America in the world, her campaign has engaged in the most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either party in this election. This is part of a disturbing pattern that led her county chairs to resign in Iowa, her campaign chairman to resign in New Hampshire, and it's exactly the kind of divisive politics that turns away Americans of all parties and diminishes respect for America in the world," said Plouffe.

    More lies (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 07:31:26 AM EST
    No, she didn't.  She was accused of "doing the same thing".

    I bet even you can tell the difference.


    Your views on race (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by MKS on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:44:25 PM EST
    and national origin are deeply disturbing.

    You talk about Latin America without any knowledge of it, except to say you visited it when you went the Bahamas.

    You say Latin America has an inferior culture because "they" are leaving there to come here.  Yet, you ignore the flight of the youth out of "flyover" country (your term, not mine) and to the coasts and large cities.  Does your theory of the movement of peoples apply to "flyover" country or to just the brown people?

    And, now a new theory:  Northern Europeans are inherently superior to Southern Europeans.  Truly disgusting.

    But, I have always believed racism is often caused by sheer ignorance.   You have displayed that here while trying to sound authoritative.  The one instance that just floored me was when someone here asked for directions from John Wayne Airport to Laguna Niguel.  You with great authority said that it could take up to an hour and a half, and that going via "Highway 1" would be good alternate route that was scenic.  That was absurd.  You had no idea what you were talking about, but still had to give an opinion--presumably to someone who you wanted to rely on your "advice."

    Well, Jimbo, I knew you were full of it then.  My office has been located within a one mile radius of John Wayne Airport for 30 years.  For half of that time, including the present, my office has been within walking distance of John Wayne.    And, for close to 30 years, I have lived in South Orange County, driving past the Laguna Niguel exit for 30 years.  Your advice was absurd.  As Donald pointed out, you can take the tollway and be in Laguna Niguel within 15 minutes.   And, no, "Highway 1" (you meant PCH) is not a scenic way to get to Laguna Niguel from John Wayne Airport.

    But, notwithstanding how wrong you were, you presumed to give authoritative directions to someone who was asking for accurate information.  You do not know what you are talking about most of the time, just as you had no idea about directions to Laguna Niguel, or that Latin America does not include the Bahamas.

    Ignorance does lead to racist views.   The cure is an open mind and open heart.  



    Sigh (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 09:42:24 AM EST

    Try some facts.

    Millions of people are leaving Mexico and CA. Governments reflect the culture. The culture came from southern Europe.

    What's happening on the ground speaks.

    It has nothing to do with race. Just as questioning Obama has nothing to do with race.

    And since you bring it up.

    People moving within the US is mostly for economic reasons.

    This is happening because the culture of the country has allowed a government to exist that has established ruling elite much like the example I used for Mexico, et al.

    This is not new. Advances in farm equipment, starting in the 30's, slowed during WWII, increasing in the late 40's and into the 50's made the large number of share croppers and unskilled labor in the south not needed so they flooded to "Detroit City," Chicago and other places. Yeah, I know you know nothing about share croppers and land owners beyond what you've read about/seen in TV/movies but I watched friends and relatives leave. The farm we were on in '49 had two families. In '50 a tractor was made available and one family was told to leave.

    Then business started moving back to the south because of cheaper labor. Factories were built and the out movement stopped. Unions came in and wages increased. But it wasn't nice. I watched my Dad help get a union in where he worked.

    But it didn't hold. Instead of upgrading manufacturing facilities and improving education the ruling class sent the factories to even cheaper labor and where the countries would invest in high tech manufacturing facilities.  This started in the mid `80's and has slowly increased to where we are today.

    So thank you for making my point. Government follows culture.

    If we really care about the "brown people" you like to claim you care for we would close the borders and make the ruling class in Mexico fix their problems in response to the culture changing. All we are now is a pressure relief valve for the wealthy in Mexico et al.

    And we would drive up the wages of all low skilled laborers including the undocumented people I would issue a green card to.

    Yes. I am just so evil. I am just so mean. I am just so deplorable. (Sarcasm alert for my  slower readers.)

    But we have no place to run. So we now have the Demos and the Repubs exposing who they are. And Trump is taking advantage of that.

    Will he fix it? I don't know.

    But I know damn well Hillary won't.


    You "know" nothing (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 09:51:23 AM EST
    ... and what you believe is a ridiculous joke.

    Like all you conservatives, Trump is all about looking out for himself.  But you're right about the "Repubs exposing who they are".  They're Trump supporters ... and deplorable.


    So, people (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 09:52:40 AM EST
    are fleeing your beloved "flyover" country because it is culturally inferior, right?

    Got an answer, Jimbo? (none / 0) (#90)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 02:07:04 PM EST
    If you actually knew anything about Mexico (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 09:58:02 AM EST
    you would know that immigration into the U.S from Mexico is a net negative over the last few years.

    A poor U.S. economy in 2008 is only a partial explanation.  The birth rate in Mexico has plummeted.  Women on average are now having about 2 kids each, down from 6 just a few years ago.

    And bonus points for knowing that Trump's visit to Mexico has put the final nail the coffin for the Nieto and the PRI.

    But you know nothing about Mexico.  You thought you were there when you visited Bermuda.  What stupidity.


    Sigh.. (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 01:06:33 PM EST
    Try some facts.

    Firstly, democracy was not invented by your Scotch-Irish ancestors in Northern Europe. There isn't even a scintilla of controversy about that issue. They also didn't invent mathematics, astronomy, engineering, or philosophy..

    I am going to saddle your people with the pursuit of lucre at all costs, talk radio, and televangelism: All cultural movements of which you are the obvious byproduct and end result.

    Secondly, claiming that Trump promoted a lie in order to disprove it, is like claiming Jack the Ripper's motivation was to improve policing in London in the 1800s.

    Better government has have respect for the intelligence and abilities of the citizenry as a starting point.

    Haing an elected representative who's a transparently two-bit shuck-and-jive artist may be within the comfort zone of someone weaned on Rush and The 700 Club, but it's no example of a surperior or sustainable culture.


    Caution: Low-Hanging Piñata Ahead. (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 02:31:49 PM EST
    jimakaPPJ: "Try some facts. Millions of people are leaving Mexico and CA. Governments reflect the culture. The culture came from southern Europe."

    Wow. Jim, you really are some piece of work.

    Per the United States Census Bureau, California's population is currently estimated at 39,144,818 residents, which is up 5.08% of from the official 2010 count of 37,253,956.

    California's economy is presently the 6th largest in the entire world. Its job growth accounted for 42% of the U.S. total last month. The state added almost 320,000 new jobs in 2015 and over 1.77 million new jobs since the end of the recession. California's economic growth outpaces that of the nation as a whole, and is expected to continue to do so for the next five years.

    You really ought to "try some facts" on for size yourself, rather than rely upon your own appallingly bigoted crackpot notions about "southern European culture" to make an indirect case for your own self-perceived socio-ethnic superiority.

    Adiós, viejo tonto.


    That pinata is stuffed with something (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 02:42:16 PM EST
    but it ain't candy..

    He probably has some thesis about the inferiority of California culture compared to the Mecca of flies-all-over country, as well..


    Donald, you need to pay closer attention (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by Peter G on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 06:26:54 PM EST
    to the every-changing idiosyncratic and obfuscating acronyms and vocabulary. "CA" in this context does not seem to mean "California"; it apparently means "Central America."

    Thank you, Peter. (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 10:24:46 PM EST
    I forgot to consult my Crackpotese-English Dictionary.

    Well.. (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:58:18 PM EST
    Exactly what does question if a candidate was born in the USA have to do with race??

    How many WHITE candidates and elected presidents had to answer a ridiculous question FOR FIVE YEARS that was answered easily by checking the Honolulu newspaper in 1961?

    No one needed to see a birth certificate, since the answer was a matter of publicly disseminated record.

    Why do you suppose this was not sufficient, and the "short form" wasn't sufficient?  What was different about this president from every previous president who DIDN'T have to answer these questions?  After all, John McCain was born in Panama, and Ted Cruz was born in Canada, and all the right-wing nut jobs questioning Obama accepted THEIR citizenship, as do I.

    Work with me on this, and together we will find the answer.


    You will have to (1.00 / 3) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 09:46:36 AM EST
    ask Hillary for the answer to that.

    Of course she won't talk but Sid just might.


    Still pushing that LIE, huh, Jim? (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 09:55:28 AM EST
    You realize that the DailyCaller is a wingnut website, right?  You realize that silly smear has been debunked numerous times, right?  That it's a wingnut LIE, right?

    Not that facts or truth matters to Trump, you or the rest of the wingers.


    So Asher was (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 01:06:09 PM EST
    lying when he said Hillary's people pitched it to him in '08??

    Is he also a wingnut?


    No - YOU"RE lying now (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:22:47 PM EST
    Blumenthal said he's lying.  I have no idea what conversation Blumenthal had with Asher - neither do you.  Then again, Blumenthal isn't Clinton and wasn't a member of her campaign.  So the only one we know is lying is YOU - and your your candidate.

    Need a few more links pointing out that it's a lie?  I have lots of them.  :)


    So is it Sid or is it Asher?? (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:53:24 PM EST
    Now let's see...

    Who profits from lying???

    Certainly not Asher.


    Doesn't matter (none / 0) (#119)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 05:15:42 PM EST
    Neither of them is Clinton of her campaign.

    Your accusation is a LIE.

    But then again, what else would anyone expect from you or the King of Lies?


    Utterly beside the point.. (none / 0) (#86)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 01:30:06 PM EST
    what you've been saying is that it was bad when any of Clinton's people did it, and SOMEHOW, miraculously, helpful when Trump did it. For months on end.

    Which rivals your "somebody posted a mean picture of Bush, so my racist pictures of Obama are ok" anti-logic for sheer, intelligence-insulting, knuckle-walking inanity.


    Also, very closely related (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 02:06:52 PM EST
    to the forn-born-forner meme spread by Machievellian weasels and crack-brained inbreds, was the "secret-Muslim" meme spread by people like that putz who posts at Tall Cotton..

    Of course, once you're happy to accept at face-value the formulations of the convicted felon, D'Souza, you've made confessions about your character that can't be taken back.


    Catch a clue (none / 0) (#105)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:48:53 PM EST
    The help Trump provided was he forced Obama to provide proof.

    That was a good thing.

    About the pictures. I am not a Pacifist.

    "Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accept the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay-and claims a halo for his dishonesty." - Heinlein

    Two Wrongs may not make a Right. But they do equal One Get Even.



    Heinlein, not surprisingly (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 04:11:16 PM EST
    was a fantasy writer, who, like you, never fought in a war.

    Now catch a better clue: unless you signed up for a stupidity contest, your 'gittin' even' is more like a neck-and-neck race past the gutter down into the sewer.


    Wash your mouth out (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 04:59:19 PM EST
    Heinlein never wrote fantasy. He was a science fiction author.

    A graduate of the Naval Academy he served in radio communications before his discharge for pulmonary tuberculosis. Very liberal as a young man he became libertarian/conservative in his later life.



    It's all fantasy (none / 0) (#118)
    by jondee on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 05:10:17 PM EST
    and in Heinlein's case, a fascist fantasy. As is pretty much universally acknowledged these days..

    All I can think when someone from the 101st keyboard division posts things like that Heinlein quote is "another tough-talking big p*ssy."

    Not to put too fine a point on it.


    "Help" - heh (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by Yman on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 05:18:27 PM EST
    No - Trump didn't help Obama.  In fact, he continued to push the birther lie for years after Obama released the certificate and put him and the rest of you birthers in your place ...

    ... a basket.


    How did Hillary (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 10:03:35 AM EST
    FORCE Trump to beat that dead horse for five years?  You and all the other birthers keep saying it's her fault that he was a birther, but you never explain how she forced a grown man to deny the evidence.

    Can you direct my attention to any PUBLIC statement on Hillary's part questioning Obama's citizenship?  Because you will remember that Trump was sending detectives to Hawaii and they were finding amazing things.

    Before they disappeared into unmarked graves and were never heard from again.

    But once again, let me focus your attention on the question you failed to answer.  It's simple, and "Hillary" cannot be part of the answer.

    Why wasn't the 1961 newspaper announcement of the birth enough to convince the birthers?  Did they suspect a time-travel conspiracy?


    If her fault (none / 0) (#74)
    by vicndabx on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 10:37:08 AM EST
    That would be yet ANOTHER example of how easily influenced and susceptible to suggestion Trump is.

    Does the man have an original thought?


    "Inconvenient"??? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Yman on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:12:27 PM EST
    A self-serving piece from Western Journalism/American Spectator from July 5?



    I see that with a heaping helping of Hubris (none / 0) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Sep 17, 2016 at 10:59:20 PM EST
    Colin Powell calls Hubris on Secretary of State Clinton's email choices....sigh

    This and that little vial at the UN Colin, these little things will be the death of you...or at least your character.

    Colin Powell would also like us to forget ... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 12:08:46 AM EST
    ... his own role -- admittedly a peripheral one -- in the Army's attempted cover-up of the My Lai massacre during the Vietnam War, when he was a major serving as chief of operations for division commander, Maj. Gen. Charles Gettys, at Chu Lai.

    When the allegations from enlisted personnel first worked their way up the chain of command, Maj. Powell blithely refuted them in a Dec. 13, 1968 letter to his superiors, without ever having bothered to interview the soldiers who leveled the charges.

    "In direct refutation of this portrayal," Powell concluded, "is the fact that relations between Americal soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent."

    Maj. Powell, of course, was full of schitt back then, just as he was 35 years later at the United Nations, when he waved that vial of talcum powder before the delegates.

    He's really not worth our attention any more.


    I looked at all that Donald and I came away (none / 0) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 10:09:56 AM EST
    Not believing he had anything to do with that coverup. He wasn't even in country when it occurred.

    I'll tell you where he buried himself in his own Hubris though in this email leak. He said W knew what needed to happen in Iraq, it was Rumsfeld, Feith, and Wolfowitz who screwed it all up. So Powell is still behind starting the Iraq War. He regrets lying his effing ass off to all of us at the UN not one little bit.

    For those of us who wanted to buy his baloney that he was mislead, I'm now returning that purchase with evidence the device was broken when I bought it.


    Yup, buried himself indeed (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by smott on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:23:01 PM EST
    If there is a hell,  Powell is going there.
    And I suspect he knows it.

    Colin Powell wasn't in Vietnam when ... (none / 0) (#108)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 03:57:20 PM EST
    ... the My Lai massacre occurred on March 16, 1968. But over one year later in May 1969, he was serving as deputy operations officer at Americal Division HQ in Chu Lai, when allegations of that massacre -- then leveled by former U.S. serviceman Ron Ridenhour -- first began to be taken seriously by the Army's Inspector General.

    It was Lt. William Calley's C Company of Americal Division's "Task Force Barker" that committed the My Lai atrocities. Further, Powell has never been implicated in any of the wrongdoing involving My Lai, nor has any evidence tied him directly to the attempted cover-up by Americal Divison's chain of command, of which then-Maj. Powell was an integral part. But Officers at the Chu Lai HQ had aggressively attempted to suppress the story of My Lai, to the point of ordering the destruction of evidence linking Americal soldiers to the tragedy.

    And that particular point was left completely unacknowledged by Powell in his own 1995 autobiography "My American Journey." Rather, he not so subtly alluded that he himself had provided the first evidence of the My Lai massacre to the Pentagon, as though he had been a benign observer at Chu Lai who was somehow responsible for first cracking open the cover up.

    In fact, what Powell didn't disclose to his readers was that in May 1969, criminal investigators from the Pentagon's IG were already at Chu Lai, and that he had been ordered by them to produce the official journals of Americal Division for March 1968. Those investigators already knew exactly what they were looking for.

    But more to the point, in November 1968 -- not long after he first arrived at Chu Lai -- Maj. Powell was ordered to inquire into allegations made by another GI that about eight months earlier, U.S. troops of the Americal command had "without provocation or justification" conducted an operation in a local hamlet that resulted in the deaths of many Vietnamese civilians, which may or may not have been the incident at My Lai.

    And good soldier that he was, Maj. Powell did his best to discredit the source of this allegation on behalf of his superiors, by conducting an investigation that can best be described as cursory. Because rather than bother himself to at least talk to that young man first, instead Powell interviewed a couple of the young man's officers, and then dutifully reporting to his superiors in the Dec. 13, 1968 letter I cited above that there was nothing to the GI's charges. Again, this documented point went completely unacknowledged in his autobiography.



    Sorry Donald (none / 0) (#132)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 10:26:02 PM EST
    He was a baby Major, and I've known many...new in country. His initial dealing with possible hostile actions toward civilians did not have anything to do with My Lai. And he was not free to investigate or do whatever the hell he wanted when he wanted. Baby Majors don't get to hunt, they especially don't get to witch hunt...unless they fancy a stay at Leavenworth. I'm always entertained by the Powell My Lai coverup conspiracy...as if...as if any baby Major during Vietnam had the ability to coverup anything but their own ass. Which in this case he did not, he was just shuffling what everyone gets to shuffle...a year here...a year gone...who did what when?

    But if Powell flagged anything in THAT bureaucracy Donald...and it panned...he gets credit. Sorry, just does, because nobody was for flagging $hit. In that instance he was exceptional.

    The warrant officer credited with confronting My Lai that day on that battlefield, he was a CW1. They call them Woges. When you are a WOG, anytime you attempt to say or do anything everyone around you yells, "Sit down and shut up!" When you aren't military, watching this happen looks abusive...it probably is. It's part of your indoctrination. No great revelation that a WOG shut down My Lai. No great revelation that nobody had $hit to say to baby Major Powell either.


    But he DIDN'T flag it. (none / 0) (#138)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 12:03:33 PM EST
    IG investigators already knew what they were looking for in the Americal Division journals, when they ordered him to produce the records for the month of March 1968. When Powell protested that he hadn't been in Chu Lai at the time, investigators reassured him that they were fully aware of that and were not interested in him, and then repeated their order. He complied.

    None of this is noted by Powell anywhere in his autobiography. But it's in the IG transcipts of the investigators' interview with Powell. He was merely the initially unwilling conduit of the information sought by investigators and not its primary source.



    and that (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by BackFromOhio on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 01:12:22 AM EST
    from someone who openly admits he destroyed all of emails sent using his aol account related to SoS business.

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 10:15:18 AM EST
    And he sent Larry Wilkerson out to carry water for him, "Poor Colin, the Bush administration used him...used us both, we had to leave because they all possessed low character and played us."

    HA Mr. Powell! You would do Iraq all over again, lie to me the same way, just as long as Rummy, Feith, and Wolfy weren't allowed to "screw everything up".

    Talk about Hubris Mr. Powell!

    But Donald Trump bites dog, so the Powell Hubris will not be covered.


    or (none / 0) (#75)
    by FlJoe on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 10:44:07 AM EST
    his recent lie that he did not advise Hillary about e-mails....busted by the FBI.

    Yes, though I'm still not (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 11:57:12 AM EST
    Sure exactly how his advising her went down I read that Joe Conanson is addressing that in his next book.

    Powell obviously likes to "advise". He was fine advising Breedlove on how to get Obama to militarily challenge Russia on Ukraine. He was fine advising Straw in the UK about how to address their Iraq War inquiry. He's all about being important enough to hand out advice.

    After reading his personal emails I discover that he isn't so much about integrity...he's about good veneer and whatever it takes to keep his intact and presentable.


    Oh please (none / 0) (#57)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 04:59:19 AM EST
    Yes, the market crash caused the massive increase in unemployment for all.

    Prior to that, the black unemployment rate was 8.3%, SO Obama has them back where Bush had them , 9 years later.

    And guess what ?


    I think the problem here (none / 0) (#133)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 01:25:45 AM EST
    ...is that none of us seem to understand what you mean when you say

    And guess what ?


    Can you define that term, so we can discuss this like adults?

    Change from what?  From the success of the Obama presidency IN SPITE of a Congress that worked against him and uncounted nutcases who unfortunately held public office and claimed he was Muslim, Kenyan, Communist or Nazi (pick one or both), unAmerican, lied about his grades, etc.

    Why would anyone want to "change" from success, since we have seen the disaster that is GOP governance?

    It's your argument.  Make it or drop it.


    And since this is an open thread (none / 0) (#97)
    by MKS on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 02:51:32 PM EST
    Do you know how wide the 5 Freeway is when it merges with the 405 (south of John Wayne)?  26 lanes.  26.

    Wanna  know why?  To cut down on commute times.  So, even if you eschew the 73 tollway, which is never is backed up and gives you a 15 minute commute from John Wayne, you have 26 lanes to prevent back ups of, oh, let's say 90 minutes.  

    Timeouts (none / 0) (#125)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 06:51:47 PM EST
    Jim is now in timeout. Yman and Jondee will be there shortly. Do not call other commenters liars here. You may disagree with what they say without name calling. And no calling anyone a racist. It's potentially libelous.

    J: Why is "liar" always name-calling? (5.00 / 7) (#127)
    by Peter G on Sun Sep 18, 2016 at 07:20:12 PM EST
    When someone engages in a pattern of repeating statements that are demonstrably and objectively false, why is "liar" not a fair description, a matter of calling a spade a spade, rather than an epithet or insult? In fact, is it not our duty to distinguish when we can between dubious opinions, on the one hand, and outright falsehoods? (I could pose a similar question about "racist," but let's just address the "liar" question for now.)

    Far be it for me to answer for our host, ... (none / 0) (#142)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Sep 19, 2016 at 06:36:41 PM EST
    ... who's more than capable of explaining her decision and rationale. But speaking for myself only, I believe that the word "liar" is a personal pejorative that impugns one's character and integrity in absolute terms. For that reason, it's not a term we should use casually with one another in everyday discussion or conversation.

    Calling someone a "liar" implies that this person is knowingly and intentionally disseminating a demonstrable falsehood. The problem is that such a strong accusation requires a very high bar of proof with regard to this person's actual intent, and speculating about another person's motive is where a lot of us subsequently run into trouble.

    Setting aside one's contention that this person could have or should have known better, did the person who said or repeated this demonstrable falsehood actually act with a deliberate and reckless disregard for the truth? Could it not be, perhaps, that the person in question is instead one of the many bullheaded individuals you'll meet in your lifetime?

    Many of us here have relatives and / or friends who not only regularly repeat to us the nonsense that they've obviously heard on Fox News and AM squawk radio or read on right-wing websites, but are also impervious to reason and truth whenever they're confronted personally with the actual facts.

    Does that make them liars? I don't think so. Rather, this overweening desire on their part to validate their own opinions most probably means that they're being willfully misinformed and sincerely ignorant -- which is a very strong likelihood if Fox News, AM radio and right-wing websites so happen to be their sole or primary sources of information. It's an entirely predicable human reaction, given that we all prefer to see ourselves as inherently reasonable people, even when we're not necessarily being reasonable in actual practice.

    And it's also an unfortunate consequence of our media's destructive penchant for providing pundits and politicians with multiple opportunities to freely misrepresent personal opinion as established fact. In a logic-driven universe, while the relevance of certain facts is fair game in any rational discussion of public policy, fact itself should not be subject to public debate.

    This could have significant repercussions, if we end up making decisions collectively that otherwise have little or no basis in reality. The willingness of far too many people to discount fact is what scares me about our country's present direction.

    There are certainly other ways to confront someone regarding the truthfulness or accuracy of what they're saying, without making it so distinctly personal. My late grandfather used to say sarcastically that Richard Nixon was someone who'd gladly explain things in a dozen different ways to a dozen different people before he'd ever lie to them. He didn't have to use the word "liar" to let people know exactly where he stood on the subject of Nixon's veracity.

    Anyway, Peter, that's my own take on it. Have a nice evening.



    sorry (3.00 / 1) (#156)
    by linea on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 09:39:47 PM EST
    that was too long for me to read (smile).

    The (none / 0) (#149)
    by FlJoe on Tue Sep 20, 2016 at 10:53:14 AM EST
    Old Gray Lady awakens, after a Rip Van Winkle nap, to weigh in on the issue, New York Times Editor Vows To Call Out Trump When He Blatantly Lies

    RIP, Curtis Hanson (1945-2016). (none / 0) (#163)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 04:55:39 AM EST
    The Oscar-winning screenwriter and director died today at his home in Los Angeles of natural causes. He was 71.

    Hanson's best-known work is the classic 1997 neo-noir "L.A. Confidential," his intricate adaptation of James Ellroy's complex novel, which earned him the Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay, as well as a nomination for Best Director.

    "L.A. Confidential" garnered universal critical acclaim and received nine Oscar nominations in all, and Kim Basinger was honored as Best Supporting Actress for her stellar turn as a high-priced call girl who falls in love with a bullheaded and short-tempered LAPD officer (played by Russell Crowe).

    Today, Hanson's directorial tour de force enjoys an astonishing 99% rating at Rotten Tomatoes. In my considered opinion, it really should've won the Oscar for Best Picture in 1997, rather than the tedious and overrated "Titanic."

    Aloha to a gifted and talented filmmaker.

    Trump (none / 0) (#164)
    by FlJoe on Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 05:43:29 AM EST
    reaches into his overstuffed basket and plucks out a (rotten) plum, Donald Trump Touts The Support Of Ted Nugent In A New Campaign Ad.

    what's the issue? (none / 0) (#166)
    by linea on Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 08:09:32 PM EST
    it's a video on (mostly) hunting and ted nugrnt is one of many people on the video. seems a perfectly fine political advert for the target audience.

    will an 8-minute video on DTs youtube channel reach many appathetic republican voters?


    The issue is using Ted Nugent (none / 0) (#167)
    by Yman on Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 08:22:12 PM EST
    ... in a video, not how many people it will influence.  The same would be true if he put David Duke in an ad.

    oh (none / 0) (#168)
    by linea on Wed Sep 21, 2016 at 08:50:44 PM EST
    i didnt know that. i just thought he was a former country-rock singer who is still popular and currently promoting the american hunting culture. i didnt know he was a david duke supporter. my bad.

    So, why didn't you (5.00 / 4) (#169)
    by Nemi on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 07:03:45 AM EST
    research prior to making your statement? That's what TL-regulars do when in doubt, and why I for one have kept coming here for years.

    To be frank -- and thereby maybe break with TL rules for which I apologize in advance -- I suspect yours is a put on persona. At times I even wonder whether you're actually female. In other words I suspect you're a 'troll', as I find it very hard to see that you bring much else to the discussion than playing coy and unknowledgeable. It's actually no shame not having and not stating an opinion on everything.

    Just my two cents for which I apologize if I'm mistaken.

    Disclaimer: I'm grateful that Jeralyn is so welcoming of all and everyone, including myself, as long as they/we just follow the rules, but ... the many partisan back and forths lately has become tedious. Personally I've come to a point, and more so the closer the election gets, where I prefer and seek safe spaces on social media, like for instance tweeters that 'block early and often'. And it's sure not like I'm left in the dark regarding what 'the other side' does and thinks and says, the main stream media sees to that 24/7/365.


    It seems that -- or perhaps may be -- (none / 0) (#180)
    by Peter G on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 02:33:41 PM EST
    that our friend Linea is "a 25-year old woman colorist from Norway."  Whether "colorist," in this context, means a hairdresser or a person who adds the color to cartoonists' initial line drawings, I have no idea (nor would it seem to matter). Anyone, of whatever background, who wants to engage in thoughtful and mutually informative discussion of issues relating to crime and politics, from a left-liberal perspective, is welcome at TalkLeft, I'm quite sure.

    actually (none / 0) (#187)
    by linea on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 06:47:29 PM EST
    my second comment was a bad attempt at snarky not "coy and unknowledgeable" so i'm sorry.

    i frequently post information from Nate Silver's site that confirms Trump can't get the needed electoral votes to win the election and i've previously stated my opposition to guns so i feel it's unfair to accuse me of trolling this (liberal) blog.


    Are you at all aware (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 04:48:47 PM EST
    of what a repugnant human being (I'm being nice using the term human being) that is Ted Nugent? Google some of his comments about the current President of the United States. Or liberals in general.

    oh, (none / 0) (#182)
    by Chuck0 on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 04:51:56 PM EST
    and he is no way, shape or form, COUNTRY rock. It's sad, cause I really did like 'Stranglehold'. Can't bear to listen to it anymore.

    Ted Nugent's lyrics are blatantly sexist. (none / 0) (#183)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 05:27:26 PM EST
    He's either lusting after young girls, or avenging himself on women whom he thinks did him wrong.

    "Here I come again now, baby,
    Like a dog in heat.
    Tell it's me by the way now baby
    I like to tap the streets.


    Gonna cruise is a bi+ch now, baby,
    You know you can't do me 'round,
    If your house gets in my way, baby,
    You know I'll burn it down.

    You remember the night that you left me,
    You put me in my place.
    Got you in a stranglehold now, baby,
    You better cross your way."

    This, of course, is the stuff my friends and I were listening to in high school. What a great role model he was, huh?



    Not to mention.. (none / 0) (#186)
    by jondee on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 06:37:02 PM EST
    Courteney Love says that in her groupie days, she, ahem "did not have sexual relations with that rock star" when she was fourteen.

    Please, "lusting after young girls"? (none / 0) (#198)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 10:56:12 PM EST
    He was young when he wrote it, 27 when it was released.

    Pretty much standard fare for lots o' 70's music..and 2016 for that matter...

    ...and sounds a wee bit like you doth object too much...


    Whatever. (none / 0) (#204)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Sep 23, 2016 at 01:52:20 PM EST
    40 years later, the writer / composer of "Wang Dang Sweet P00ntang" still hasn't grown up.

    After seeing him (none / 0) (#205)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Sep 23, 2016 at 03:59:07 PM EST
    In concert 3 years ago, on that we wholeheartedly agree.

    But for the night, myself and several old college friends , we relived part of our youth.


    Saw him (none / 0) (#202)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Sep 23, 2016 at 06:15:48 AM EST
    In  small venue in Poughkeepsie several years ago.
    Stranglehold still cooks!!!
    And can't forget   The Great White Buffalo

    PLEASE (none / 0) (#188)
    by linea on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 07:01:22 PM EST
    i wrongly assumed the HP article was a recap of the video for people too lazy to sit throught the tedious 8-minutes. i watched the entire video and commented that i didnt see how this REPUBLICAN video targeting HUNTERS posted on a youtube site would be helpfull to DTs campaign. i wasnt being confrontational.

    then David Duke was tossed in. i texted several friends and everyone said Ted Nugent is crazy pro-gun and anti-Obama but nobody heard he was "white power" David Duke crazy so i responded with an attempt at snarky which obviously i'm bad at.

    you know {sigh}... i feel people go out of their way to misconstrue* what i write. i spend a lot of time looking up definitions and synonyms and, for the most part, feel my posts are well-reasoned and well-written. i'm sorry if anyone felt my initial post was impertinent** and i'm sorry for the snarky retort.

    (interpret wrongly)
    (not pertinent to a particular matter)


    Hillary Clinton on "Between Two Ferns" (none / 0) (#174)
    by Dadler on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 10:30:31 AM EST
    Trump Ohio county chairperson (none / 0) (#176)
    by Yman on Thu Sep 22, 2016 at 01:57:17 PM EST
    ... resigns after claiming that there was "no racism" until President Barack Obama was elected, that African Americans have had "every opportunity" in the last 50 years, and that BLM is a " stupid waste of time."