Thursday Afternoon Open Thread

Pence or Newt?

Open Thread.

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    Please, Hillary, do not pick Kaine (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 03:05:32 PM EST
    Just listened to Kaine live at a Hillary event.  He makes Mr. Rogers seem dynamic.

    aww (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by CST on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 03:28:56 PM EST
    I love Mr. Rogers...

    But also - I agree she should not pick Tim Kaine.


    I liked him better than my kids did. (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 03:36:44 PM EST
    But I'd never have guessed capt howdy was a Mr. Rogers' fan.

    Oh... It's a wonderful day in the TalkLeft hood, (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:07:40 PM EST
    What on earth (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:13:41 PM EST
    Would make you think I was?

    you're not? (none / 0) (#10)
    by CST on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:19:52 PM EST
    Why not???

    I once lived in Mr. Rogers actual neighborhood. I never met him, but the general consensus seemed to be that he was a legitimately good human being.


    My aunt worked at WQED (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:26:05 PM EST
    She knew him (although not well).

    He was EXACTLY the same in real life.  Kibd, unassuming, loving.


    I bet (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:31:19 PM EST
    He had an S&M dungeon in his basement.

    Mr. Rogers and S&M? Can't see it. (none / 0) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 07:02:08 PM EST
    But then, I bet most fans of Mr. Rogers refused to believe that he used the loo.

    Who's neighborhood is it (none / 0) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 07:07:46 PM EST
    Now b!tch?

    Even as a child (3.67 / 3) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:26:49 PM EST
    I would rather put out a campfire with my face than watch Mr Rodgers.

    "I hate when that happens" (none / 0) (#117)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 01:46:36 PM EST
    The mysterious lurking (none / 0) (#141)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:59:56 PM EST

    Interesting he picks Pence (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:17:04 PM EST
    It's the I know I'm in trouble and I need to pander to the base pick.

    It's the smart choice for him.  To bad.  Still, won't save him.  

    Yes, Pence (none / 0) (#20)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:05:17 PM EST
    is the guy I felt Trump would go with, given the slim pickens and the one-deep bench available to him.  Pence, at 57, is 13 years younger than Trump, and has two wives less. An Evangelical tea party, "Values Voters" darling, he complements Trump's "baby Christian" characterization by the wingnut Rev. Dobson, with an "adult Christian" who can charge up the base. Pence's smack-down by just about everyone in Indiana over the anti-gay bill masquerading as something to do with religion, seemed to put to death his hopes for the Republican nod for president, but, now, Trump has bestowed a born again political life.  At least for four months, and it should help out all Hoosiers by his removal from its governor's ranks.

    Mrs. Clinton now has some time to re-assess her considerations for vice president, given a Trumpence ticket.  Tim Kaine has all the get up and go of a bowel of mashed potatoes. She needs Senator Warren, or someone like Elijah Cummings or Rep. Xavier Becerra (yes, Kaine speaks Spanish, but these days, it is past time for an Hispanic, if facility with the language is to be an attribute.)


    Yep (1.00 / 1) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:13:29 PM EST
    It will still be Kaine

    Can Kaine debate? (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by ExPatObserver on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:17:38 PM EST
    I felt that Edwards' horrible debate performance against Cheney was a real missed opportunity of the 2004 election.
    Whoever Trump picks, Hillary's VP should be able to tear him apart.

    I would love to be wrong (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:35:32 PM EST
    Terrorist attack in Paris (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:03:45 PM EST
    At least 80 dead.

    I'm betting James Stavridis.


    Sorry, Nice (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:10:20 PM EST

    James Stavridis (none / 0) (#87)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:57:15 AM EST
    would not be my first choice.  That belongs to Senator Warren.  And, most of the others often mentioned seem to fall short in one way or another, it seems.  Therefore, Stavridis emerges as a very good contender.  He has a great professional and military resume, and is an unknown---which ironically is a big plus.  And, world events put him in good stead.

    My husband just asked me (none / 0) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 10:00:32 AM EST
    Why Wes Clark wasn't being vetted and discussed too? I dunno...unless Clark isn't interested in being VP. I've never known him to ignore the call to serve his country though.

    Maybe age, (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 10:19:05 AM EST
    Wes Clark is 71. While not an ageist period, and, for other than attacks on Mrs. Clinton's age by Republicans, it does not seem to matter. Never-the-less, Mrs. Clinton may be looking to the Admiral as someone she respects greatly having worked with him during her State Department tenure. However, Stavridis does have some "oversight" of administrative procedures that may bump into the vetting process.

    I am less than enthusiastic (none / 0) (#104)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:30:10 PM EST
    About setting Tim Kaine up for a Presidency....bleh! I'd rather have Clark for 4 yrs while we groom a better candidate.

    Warren will run in 2024...maybe even in 2020, (none / 0) (#128)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:28:11 PM EST
    who can say?

    I was wondering the same thing (none / 0) (#105)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:38:22 PM EST
    I did think of age, and also the Arkansas connection....maybe too much Arkansa on one ticket?

    We can't have too much woman (none / 0) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:59:13 PM EST
    We can't have too much old

    We can't have too much Arkansas

    I'm starting to get pissy :)

    One thing you can say about Tim Kaine, he's not too much anything. It isn't how I wanted to make America great again.


    Don't worry MT, the VP is not going to be the one (none / 0) (#126)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:22:55 PM EST
    to other make or break America. I don't really know that much about Kaine other than he seems middle of the road politically and a little goofy personally. Seems like someone HRC can work with very well and be a good campaign companion.

    I'm sure I'll be happier with her picking him than I was with Obama picking Biden, and that did not turn out so bad in retrospect.


    Trump Pence is so nucking futz (none / 0) (#111)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 01:01:47 PM EST
    You'd think we could get just a tad wild ourselves

    Here MT... (5.00 / 3) (#119)
    by desertswine on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:18:08 PM EST
    MT...Bill Clinton is going to be First Husband (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:25:05 PM EST
    that not enough excitement for ya?

    Sure, If he wears a ball gown to the Presidential (none / 0) (#134)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:05:16 PM EST
    Inaugural Balls :-)!

    that not enough excitement for ya

    Will he donate his tux to the Smithsonian? (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:28:51 PM EST
    Hope so - let's start a long tradition. May it be joined by many.

    LOVE TRUMPS HATE (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:50:35 PM EST
    Right (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:02:54 PM EST
    What's the problem? he only insinuated that Ted's father may have conspired with Oswald.

    This ought to be interesting in Britain. (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:07:10 PM EST
    On her first full day in office, British Prime Minister Theresa May immediately culled David Cameron's supporters from the government, a move which ITV News analyst Robert Peston has characterized as a "massive political, cultural and social shift."

    As part of her major cabinet reshuffling, the PM has appointed Boris Johnson to the post of Foreign Minister. Official reaction in foreign capitals of his appointment has been incredulous at best.

    And in an auspicious debut for Mr. Johnson, to say the least, he attended an official reception this evening at the French embassy in London, where he gave a speech and was reportedly booed and jeered by guests.

    Meanwhile, French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault asserted to the media that Johnson had lied to the British people during the recent EU referendum campaign and now "has his back to the wall to defend his country[.]"

    I do hope the Prime Minister knows what she's doing here. The last thing our country needs at this time would be for our most important ally to go wobbly.


    Justice Ginsberg (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by Ladyjustice on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:39:25 PM EST
    SHAME!  SHAME!  If Donald Trump should become the president of our United States.  Why won't attorneys, teachers, doctors and other professionals come forward as Justice Ginsberg has. No LOUD voices by such professionals were heard in the run up to the Iraq war.  Now we have the same situation, where in our gut feelings and our long experience and education, know that Donald Trump is not qualified to become our Commander in Chief. Justice Ginsberg, stooped over with age and burdened with a conscience of being silent in light of looming disaster, has the back bone to speak and NO ONE standing to defend her.  Instead, the criticism of her stand has emboldened Donald Trump with more incivility and attacks on her character and dignity.

    There is a deliberate firewall, set by Fox News, and other media outlets (for ratings) to block Donald Trump's malfeasance; and instead, reporting bias against Hillary Clinton citing faux polls and influencing young minds who have little experience and are "poorly educated?  Are you in your right minds to compare Clinton's emails to Trump University fraud, his incivility of name calling, unethical business practices and his plans to rid most of President's economic accomplishments, and to include Obama Care.  

    Is there any loud, influencing voice out there who will stand, applaud and defend Justice Ginsberg, as one who rejected the "go with the crowd," in promoting a complete imbecile to run our "great" country.

    Thank you. (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:03:29 PM EST
    I defended Justice Ginsberg last night in another thread. LINK.

    There is no TRUTH without "RUTH."


    Justice Ginsburg conceded today (4.00 / 4) (#59)
    by Peter G on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:22:37 PM EST
    that she should not have made the statements she did. Not because they weren't true, but because no judge, including a Justice of the Supreme Court, should take a public position supporting or opposing the election of a candidate for a partisan office. This has nothing to do with whether Bush v Gore was a travesty, or whether Justice Scalia was too close to Cheney, or anything else. Her statements were out of line, as she has admitted. It does not imply that she is any less of a great American, or a great Justice, for us to acknowledge that she made a mistake.

    Actually, this has everything to do with it. (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 01:09:09 AM EST
    Maye Justie Ginsberg made a mistake, given that this is a political fight, and not a courtroom battle. But by taking the position she did, she's actually defending the integrity of the federal judiciary, which has been under withering assault by the political right for the better part of three-plus decades now.

    The right doesn't care about prior precedent or case law. They just want their way, and have proved themselves perfectly willing to use the federal judiciary to advance their agenda by stacking the court with partisan jurists. Per Charlie Pierce:

    "I will be told that I am a Bad Analyst because I am essentially arguing that multiple wrongs make a right, but I don't really care. Leave aside the historic reality that the [Supreme] Court always has been politicized, sometimes garishly so, but we are now at the end of a 30-year process in which a well-financed conservative infrastructure restructured the federal court system from top to bottom, seeding it with reliable judges who supported dubious interpretations of laws to which their ideological sponsors were unfriendly.

    We're making a big tactical mistake, separating this into individual silos and allowing decorum to dictate the manner in which we will and will not respond to direct challenges such as this one.

    Honestly, this is exactly why liberals consistently lose political fights like this. I'm all for standing upon principle, but not to the point of committing democratic (with a small d) hara kiri on its behalf. What DO we stand for, exactly, when we refuse to take a firm stand on our own behalf -- or worse still, form circular firing squads and blaze away at those who are on our side?

    "Ginsberg is not intolerant of conservatives; she and Scalia were opera buddies. But she's 83, sharp as a tack, and a survivor of pancreatic cancer, which generally gives you the same odds as stepping in front of a westbound freight. Her big bag of fcks was empty long ago. She's seen what's happened to the courts first-hand, and she is right to warn us that a Trump administration is just as likely to put the gardener at Mar-A-Lago on the bench as not. Liberals, of course, are supposed to make sure they use the right fork when they sit down to dinner with barbarians."



    Who's "us," PeterG? (none / 0) (#94)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:12:50 AM EST
    Other than convention, is there a basis for your assertion that "no judge, including a Justice of the Supreme Court, should take a public position..." or that "she made a mistake?"

    I applaud Ginsburg.  She tossed a ring of truth into a Mordor of hypocrisy and lies.  She was hired to judge.  So she judged.


    I understand her, I applaud her (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:25:31 AM EST
    At the same time I think she overstepped.  Thank god for people that overstep in dire situations.

    All of these things can be true at the same time.  


    You would show her more respect (4.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Peter G on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:23:44 PM EST
    by learning to spell her name correctly.

    GOP apparently (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:35:50 PM EST
    has $6 million shortfall for the convention

    Apparently a lot of their sponsors have pulled out because of Trump.

    Coup (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:19:19 PM EST
    in Turkey? Per CNN "Turkish PM: Military taking illegal actions".

    Serenity now! (none / 0) (#136)
    by desertswine on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:12:32 PM EST
    looks like it (none / 0) (#139)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:41:04 PM EST
    Twitter blowing up

    best tweet so far: "I enjoyed being the proprietor of F^ckErdogan.com while it lasted."

    Muslim Brotherhood is not happy

    anything that makes the Muslim Brotherhood unhappy tends to make me happy

    hope civil war can be avoided, though

    video showed civilians cheering military in the streets


    Maybe I'm just being optimistic (none / 0) (#140)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:57:31 PM EST
    But it seems to me what's happening right now in Turkey makes Hillary look a fair bit better than Donald.  One would think.  To many people.

    maybe not so much (none / 0) (#143)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:20:25 PM EST
    Richard Engel, chief correspondent of NBC News, reports that the Obama administration was caught off guard - what sticks to Obama sticks to Hillary

    I think the world was caught off guard (none / 0) (#146)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:36:44 PM EST
    I was thinking more along the line of the world being a dangerous and complicated place.  That Turkey is key to so much in the region.  Do I really want Donsld J Trump making decisions about how to react to this.

    Not a tough call for me.  But as I said, optimism plagues me.


    maybe not the whole world (none / 0) (#152)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:48:47 PM EST
    France closed its embassies in Istanbul, Ankara, & Izmir 2 days before the coup, reportedly because of "security concerns"

    but who knows?


    Yeah..and who knows what our officials knew also (none / 0) (#168)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:14:47 PM EST
    I doubt everyone in the know ts having a heart to heart with Richard Engel at this point.

    Maybe everyone knew (none / 0) (#171)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:31:58 PM EST
    But Erdogan.   One would think he would not have gone on vaca and now being kept out of his country.

    heh (none / 0) (#173)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:34:00 PM EST
    Obama & Kerry now call on "all parties in Turkey" to "support the democratically elected Government of Turkey"

    what else can they say? shades of Morsi


    It it a case of too little, too late? (none / 0) (#175)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:39:02 PM EST
    Or is their statement a sign that the rebels are not yet in complete control of the country, and that the government is still holding on in Ankara?

    Agreed, (none / 0) (#191)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:35:35 PM EST
    its called a coup d'etat.  Not something that is announced in advance.  It is supposed to be a surprise, to everyone.

    For whatever (none / 0) (#180)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:47:15 PM EST
    reason Obama never seems to be able to get out in front of this kind of thing. I don't know why that is.

    Obama was supposed to know when even (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 08:05:53 PM EST
    Erdogan had no idea? That would have been quite a feat.

    in this case (none / 0) (#186)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:10:17 PM EST
    it may well be that the secularists in the military do not trust Obama

    i would bet my own money on that


    I don't know. (none / 0) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:33:16 PM EST
    It seems that Bill was able to get out in front of things but maybe there was more trust there despite the rumors otherwise?

    Cheering in Istanbul (none / 0) (#142)
    by CST on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:00:06 PM EST
    But the rest of the country... probably not as much.

    Not a fan of Erdogan, also not a big fan of coups although Turkish law/history in that regard is perhaps more nuanced.

    I don't know that I'd call this a good thing, it's problematic that it has come to this.  I certainly hope it resolves itself without much violence.  I fear that Turkey has darker days ahead.  Erdogan was a scumbag but he had the support of a lot of people.  I worry about what those people may decide to support in the days ahead.


    as i recall, you lived (none / 0) (#147)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:37:22 PM EST
    in the ME as a child - Iran?

    ... will side with the military on this one. When we were visiting there about eight years ago, most of the people we talked to in Istanbul and Ankara were secular and Euro-centric in their outlook. That said, it may well be that people feel otherwise in rural Turkey, because we drove through it from Ankara first to Antalya and then Izmir via motorcoach without really stopping, and then we flew from Izmir to Istanbul before returning stateside. It's an absolutely gorgeous country, and I'm glad we traveled there when we did.

    In non-Trump news, this year's ... (none / 0) (#1)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 02:51:28 PM EST
    ... Emmy nominations were announced this morning, and "Game of Thrones" picked up 23 of them. "The People Vs. O.J. Simpson" and "Fargo" followed with 22 and 18 nominations, respectively. The Los Angeles Times has a page up with running updates.

    That is one helluva list (none / 0) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:10:36 PM EST
    A great year.  So glad to see Tatiana Maslany for Orphan Black finally getting attention.  Three actresses in GOTs competing for supporting.  Love to see Leiv Schreiber win for Ray Donavon.  Such a great series and he carries it.  Thank everyone else in the category with  Bryan Cranston for All thr Way.  Better luck next time.

    Really an amazing list.

    FX is kickin it.  I hope Kathy Bates finally wins for American Horror Story.  


    That said about Liev (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:20:45 PM EST
    Bob Odenkirk would be great too.  Again.  Just wow.

    Of the 7 nominated for best drama I think I would have to flip a coin.  Or coins.


    Great field in the actor category especially (none / 0) (#85)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:33:44 AM EST
    I'm on team Matthew Rhys. 2nd, team Rami Malek.  

    and yeah, they may as well just give the limited series award to  Cranston now.

    I need to watch Orphan Black. I have no firm opinions in the actress category except my usual 'no Claire Danes' rule.

    Actress in limites series - my vote would be Kirsten Dunst but I think it will be Sarah Paulson, which is fine too. She was great in the OJ movie.

    Julia Louis Dreyfus - must win, no one comes close.

    Drama series is a tough one too, if you ignore Downton Abbey and Homeland. Both good shows, just not as good as the others IMO.


    Poor Palin (none / 0) (#8)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:18:33 PM EST
    stuck in the wilds of Alaska, unable to attend the coronation. Or so says Trump
    "She was asked," Trump told the Washington Examiner in a phone interview on Thursday. "It's a little bit difficult because of where she is. We love Sarah. Little bit difficult because of, you know, it's a long ways away."

    Of course, some people would consider her a long way away if they were standing next to her, so we shouldn't give Trump too many Pinocchios this time.

    Wtf (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:19:19 PM EST
    Is she driving?

    Dog Sled (4.00 / 1) (#11)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:21:41 PM EST

    Snowshoes (none / 0) (#63)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:48:02 PM EST
    old dead ideas (none / 0) (#95)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:13:52 AM EST
    Apparently, Track has been remanded (none / 0) (#122)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:00:52 PM EST
    into custody until his trial.  Nobody seems to know why as there is a gag order or something but that's the speculation as to why she's not going.

    I read it on the interwebs, so it must be true.


    Someone has to monitor Russia next week (none / 0) (#169)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:16:35 PM EST
    Ben Ginsberg (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:25:27 PM EST
    Is saying the Never Trump crowd is surprising the RNC in their strength on the rules committee (which I believe I said they would) RNC delaying a vote because they thought they would lose.

    Todd- what happens tomorrow, dies Pence matter

    Ginsberg-Pence doesn't matter the key vote is mid morning tomorrow.  Outcome unknown.

    In summary

    Priebus and the RNC have much less controll that they said or thought they would.

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:45:54 PM EST
    I have seen other reports of this. Either way the GOP is screwed.

    Leaving (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:57:38 PM EST
    aside the ramifications for Republican party. How would a coup attempt, successful or not, play out on the streets of Cleveland?

    The authorities are sweating bullets, even over a likely coronation. A contentious political brawl breaking out at the convention is bound to spread.
    Gasoline, meet fire.

    BTW: Open carry will be allowed in all it's glory in most of the city.


    ridiculous (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:35:36 PM EST
    you do understand, don't you, that the only people rioting in the streets of Cleveland will be the #ShutItDown contingent?

    that will be enough to hand Ohio & probably a few more swing states to the GOP, Trump or no Trump



    Just (none / 0) (#38)
    by FlJoe on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:43:47 PM EST
    saying that Trump supporters will be mighty unhappy if the nomination is stolen from him.

    oh (none / 0) (#41)
    by The Addams Family on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 07:21:48 PM EST
    looks like i misunderstood your question about how "a coup attemp, successful or not," would "play out on the streets of Cleveland," & your remark that "a contentious political brawl breaking out at the convention" would be "bound to spread" to the point where "gasoline" would "meet fire"

    silly me


    Praise the lord (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:01:21 PM EST
    And pass the ammunition!

    Trump still could change his mind. (none / 0) (#14)
    by ExPatObserver on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:39:03 PM EST
    Early buzz on Pence is quite negative. It's not too late for Trump to choose Gingrich.
    Newt could draw attention away from Trump, just by being himself.

    Considering (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 04:50:39 PM EST
    there was a poll out today that had Hillary leading in GA and Trump has said he is worried about GA he might pick Gingrich.

    If it's Gingrich remember #AllWivesMatter.


    I was going to LOL at that, until ... (none / 0) (#31)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:10:22 PM EST
    ... I remembered that my three siblings and I have 10 marriages between us. You know, people who live in glass houses, etc., etc.



    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:23:03 PM EST
    but are you and your family giving us all sanctimonious lectures about the "sanctity of marriage"?

    Dozens (?) killed in Nice... (none / 0) (#21)
    by desertswine on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:12:49 PM EST
    A terrorist attack?  We'll soon know I guess.

    Trucks fer fu@ks sake (none / 0) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:17:19 PM EST
    How do you guard against trucks?

    That's a good question. (none / 0) (#32)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:14:32 PM EST
    The Promenade des Anglais was closed to traffic for the Bastille Day celebrations and was full of revelers. The driver reportedly plowed through the crowds for as far as two kilometers along that beachfront road.

    President Obama referred to a terrorst (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:11:27 PM EST

    ... deliberately plowed into a Bastille Day crowd along the Promenade des Anglais, apparently killing at least 30 people, according to local French police. Whether this was an isolated incident has yet to be determined.

    Update: The death toll is now 60. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 06:07:39 PM EST
    At least 110 are injured.

    The videos of this (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 07:37:36 PM EST
    That have shown up on YouTube are unbelievably horrific.  Weird because the truck was not going that fast.  I guess because of the crowd people were not able to get out of the way.  But the street is just strewn with mangled bodies for what looks like hundreds of feet.

    Driver (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 07:50:31 PM EST
    Was also shooting.

    Truck was filled with weapons and explosives.


    Right (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 07:58:10 PM EST
    But it's very very clear most of the dead did not die by gunfire.

    An inactive grenade (none / 0) (#78)
    by Redbrow on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:38:17 AM EST
    And fake rifles according to the Telegraph. Pretty bizarre if true.

    A source close to the investigation said an "inactive" grenade was found inside the 19-tonne truck, as well as "several fake rifles"



    Here's what the Promenade des Anglais ... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:55:45 PM EST
    ... looked like from a hotel's upper balconey about 10 minutes before the attack. As you can see, the street is packed with people. Even with the truck going at a moderate speed, there's simply no place for people to flee to get out of the way.

    There has to be a big freakin (none / 0) (#55)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:07:11 PM EST
    Question about how this was allowed to happen.  That is not a small truck.  It could be seen coming, witnesses say, from miles away. They say it could not have approached on side streets because they are to small.  Where were the police?  why were they not  shooting many holes in this truck?



    I mean (none / 0) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:15:56 PM EST
    You don't want to shoot the driver?  Shoot the damn tires.  What you don't explicable do is just stand there and allow the equivalent of an 18 wheeler go by at 30 mph toward a massive crowd of people.

    Makes no sense to me.


    "Shoot the damn tires." (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 11:22:15 PM EST
    Respectfully, you watch too much TV.

    Respectfully (none / 0) (#80)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:29:00 AM EST
    Maybe you don't watch enough.  A truck that size would not get far on flat tires.  Why would you not shoot the tires.

    They did btw (none / 0) (#83)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:50:07 AM EST
    "Shoot the tires". Just not until many people were dead.

    anything about cops shooting the truck's tires.

    Generally, I think the idea is that bullets shot at tires bounce off the pavement and ricochet around and can take a deadly toll.

    Do you have a link?


    It was really hard to find (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:52:41 PM EST
    I typed Nice attack police shoot tires

    After being stopped by armed police, who sprayed more than 40 bullets into the lorry's windscreen .... The lorry was riddled with more than 40 bullet holes and had its front tyres shot out.

    Well,I'm going to go out on a limb (none / 0) (#114)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 01:18:06 PM EST
    and say if the newspaper you quote is factually correct, and they are correct that the "tyres" underneath the driver were indeed "shot out," then they were almost assuredly shot incidentally as the police tried to directly fill the driver himself with 100's of bullet holes.

    a flat tire may not be as debilitating as you might think

        When I was stationed at FT Riley, KS in the early 80's, a Riley County police officer was killed in a shootout.

        When the officer was hit, and went down, the BG's went to flee the scene, and he managed to shoot out the right front tire. However, responding units got involved in a chase with the BG's, and the got 40, I say again, 40 miles before they were forced off the road and taken into custody. ON A FLAT STEER TIRE!!!!!

        I would only fire at an automobile to take out the creep inside, not the vehicle.


    Reply With Quote Reply With Quote
    02-13-2002, 01:17 AM #9

        I thought that's what Stop Sticks were for.......

        Considering that I've chased a front-wheel drive car nearly 7 miles with a flat front tire (steering and drive affected).... sparks flying.... and that was with several spikes in it. 100% flat........

        I'm not a fan of shooting tires, policy against it or not.

    Al Saibini, Retired federal agent and deputy sheriff
    362 Views · Al has 300+ answers in Police and Law Enforcement

    Shooting at tires is a wasted exercise. Even if you hit the tire with a single bullet, what you have is tire with a leak. It will eventually go flat but a flat tire does not cause a car to stop.*

    The sheriff's office I worked for flatly prohibited shooting at moving vehicles. Department of Justice firearms policy (unless it's changed since I retired in 2010) allowed shooting at the occupants of a moving vehicle so long as they constituted an imminent threat to the agent or someone else.

    The only way to stop a car with anything a police officer is likely to be carrying is to shoot the driver and hope that his foot relaxes on the accelerator. Getting out of the way is much better idea.

    *I once backed up the highway patrol in a pursuit. The trooper had been attempting to stop a Cadillac traveling at high speed. The right front tire was gone. Not flat, gone. It had gone flat at some point and the driver, drunk as an owl, had continued driving at upwards of 80 mph with sparks from the rim flying past the passenger window.

    I'm sure shooting tires does happen, but I would say not so much with a confirmed homicidal maniac behind the wheel...


    For f@cks sake (none / 0) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 01:42:03 PM EST
    The windshield and apparently the side windows of the cab were made of bulletproof glass. In other words, the driver carried out the attack while sitting in the protected cab that he had built for himself. It was the first time for this method to be used by terrorists.
    Damage to the windshield showed that at some, if not all, of the bullets fired at the cab did not penetrate it. The fact that the windshield was not broken, and the bullets left round holes without cracks, show that the windshield had been replaced with bulletproof glass or a layer of bullet-resistant protective plastic.    

    Our sources point out that if the police in Nice, who have already been on a terror alert for an entire year, had been properly prepared for the large-scale event on a national holiday, they would have had more powerful and effective weapons that would have hit the terrorist as he sat in the driver's seat, or at least been able to stop the truck by puncturing its tires.



    of preparation of the police. That is beyond ridiculous.

    CHP uses spike strips. But (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:18:37 PM EST
    those are not always effective.

    And I'm sure it would be more deadly (none / 0) (#109)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:55:44 PM EST
    Than allowing hm to drive a truck through a crowd of people.

    I don't see any mystery (none / 0) (#57)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:21:13 PM EST
    Masking the unexpected with the mundane is standard procedure for terrorists, if they're any good at it.

    Box cutters.  Backpacks.

    This case was a low velocity version of 9/11.


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:24:04 PM EST
    Not that unexpected.  It's been said over and over tonight that suicide by vehicle is a well known and often used tool of terrorists.  It might have been surprising to the crowd it damn sure should not have been to the police.

    The police did shoot the driver. (none / 0) (#77)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 01:13:04 AM EST
    I saw a photo of the front cab, and its windshield is riddled with bullet holes.

    Right (none / 0) (#81)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:31:40 AM EST
    How many people were dead when they started doing this.  The truck should never have been allowed close.  The streets were closed there was no reason to allow to to approach.   Yeah when people started dying and the driver was shooting out the window they started shooting.

    BBC: the driver said he was delivering (none / 0) (#100)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:04:54 PM EST
    ice cream. Was permitted to move.

    He told the police he was delivering ice (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:23:13 PM EST

    He told the officers he was delivering ice creams and would be moving on soon. What in fact he was about to deliver was murder on a massive scale.

    Think they might have checked in the back?


    But I keep hearing this (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:40:34 PM EST
    Oh it was so unexpected.  How could have anyone have expected this.  It's so unusual.  Except it's not

    Thursday's horrific incident was not the first time France has witnessed vehicles being used to inflict casualties.
    On Dec. 21, 2014, a man in Dijon, France, was arrested after running over 11 pedestrians, injuring two seriously, in five areas of the city in 30 minutes. Witnesses said the man shouted "Allahu Akbar," the Islamic expression for "God is great."
    The attack came one day after a stabbing at the Tours police station. French authorities at the time disputed whether the Dijon attack was rooted in terrorism, however. They said the man was known to police and had spent time in a psychiatric hospital.

    One day later, a similar scene would play out, this time in the French city of Nantes. A man ran over 10 pedestrians, killing one, in a van at the city's Christmas market and then attempted suicide by stabbing himself. There were similar reports that the attacker shouted the same Islamic expression as in Dijon. But police also said they thought the man was unbalanced after they found a notebook in the van with suicidal ramblings.
    Six months later, on June 26, 2015, there was another grisly attack. A delivery driver, at the wheel of a van with his boss inside -- whom police say he earlier decapitated -- gained entrance to the grounds of a gas factory near Lyon. He drove the van into gas cylinders, injuring two people in the subsequent explosion. Yassine Salhi was arrested and charged with murder and attempted murder linked to terrorism.
    On Jan. 1 of this year, a man rammed his car twice into four soldiers guarding a mosque in Valence, France, injuring a soldier and an elderly man. Officials said they found jihadist propaganda on his computer but believed that he acted alone.

    IMO any police officer in France who says this is a some kind of big unexpected surprise should be in another line of work.


    Look at the massive crowds, Cap'n. (none / 0) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 02:33:10 PM EST
    If you're a gendarme, how are you going to get into position to shoot the tires, the driver or whatever, with thousands of people stampeding in whatever direction, all trying to get out of the vehicle's way?

    That truck should never have been allowed on the Promenade des Anglais in the first place. But once it started its roll into the crowd, the subsequent panic of the crowd itself obviously hindered any immediate police response to the assault.



    Of course that's true (none / 0) (#129)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:29:20 PM EST
    No doubt.   But I've watched a lot of videos.  The truck rolls by slowly at first.  By policemen.  Who are first waving then sometimes shooting.  They are sometimes very close.  Those tires are huge they are like 5 feet tall.  Quite a big easy target.  

    In some cases they could touch them but they don't seem to try to shoot them.

    This seems very odd to me.  These are policemen I'm talking about.  Not panicked bystanders.  They are supposed to be trained to respond to this stuff.

    That's all.  That's my point.  I'm not trained or a policeman but I would have shot the tires.


    Do that type of tires even get hurt much by being (none / 0) (#130)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:37:19 PM EST
    shot? Or even by the standard car stopper things they put on the roads?

    Still would have been worth a try. Maybe they were afraid of missing a moving target like a tire and hitting a pedestrian undated. I can see where shooting at the cab is an easier target than the tire.

    Whatever, good men with guys are no match for a bad man with a lorry. Which does beg a question...


    *instead, not undated, guns, not guys. Why can't I (none / 0) (#131)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:38:44 PM EST
    type today?

    No they don't (none / 0) (#133)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:44:35 PM EST
    That was the point of that piece I linked.  But that's what I mean by the close up opportunities.  They are gigantic tires.   Point blank would have worked.  Or at least might have worked.  No one seemed to try.

    As far as missing and shooting a bystander, no one shootings seems to be all that concerned about that.    


    My state is well represented (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:44:44 PM EST
    At the GOP clown show.  Cotton on Monday Hutchison on Tuesday.


    Night 3 too really (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 05:46:50 PM EST

    Night 3 is the night where they plan to discuss former President Bill Clinton's sexual exploits while in office. No, really

    Trump will delay announcing (none / 0) (#48)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:13:02 PM EST
    his choice for VP because of the attack in Nice, France, according to WaPo.

    But Pence (none / 0) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:24:45 PM EST
    Still has to withdraw, or not, for governor tomorrow.

    I think Pence has to announce by noon (none / 0) (#68)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:12:27 PM EST
    So the answer will be by noon tomorrow whether Trump announces then or not. Even Trump isn't that stupid to hang a GOP Governor out to dry

    Unfortunate that HRC's emphasis in (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 08:16:31 PM EST
    Northern Virginia today was how she differs from Trump re immigration.

    Why unfortunate? (none / 0) (#58)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:22:20 PM EST
    Because of the terrorism (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:05:21 PM EST
    in Nice.

    I agree with you. (3.67 / 3) (#73)
    by ExPatObserver on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 11:02:15 PM EST
    I am having bad vibes about Clinton's campaign recently. She just can't seem to get out of the careful, calculated mode of campaigning. Everything she says is based on appealing to the right constituencies; her ads---which are really skillfully executed, by the way---would make B.F. Skinner blush in their cynicism about human nature; her immigration policy, e.g., is always completely "correct" even if it is out of touch with the sentiment of the times.
    Of course I agree with her more than 90% of the time, but I sense a failure to articulate a grand vision, a campaign woven from strands of multi-hued constituency appeals rather than an appeal to the universal.

    Fundamentally I think Clinton is an untalented politician, especially as a campaigner. I believe she would at worst be an adequate President, except possibly in foreign policy where she might fail badly (the problems may be beyond any President, frankly), and possibly an effective one.
    I have two suggestions.
    First, someone on the Democratic side needs to kill the idea that white, working-class U.S. citizens are a problem. Really?? Nobody who is working class has any power as an actor in today's economy. Bring them in, don't single them out. I'm not seeing that Clinton is blaming this group, but I don't see a lot of white in her rainbow. We are all American.

    Second, recast the message on immigration. Every country has a right to control its borders. In this point, I am not referring to Mexico, where I don't believe that the illegal immigration can be stopped, and I also think it is a net positive, anyway; I am thinking more about the cases where we can practically control the flow. Worry about terrorists immigrating to the U.S. is legitimate. Instead of embracing the commitment to bringing in new citizens, why not emphasize that we have  stringent process already, and say that protecting American citizens is an extremely high priority in the area of immigration.

    I confess that I don't watch campaign speeches. I don't know exactly what Clinton says. I do know how her campaign is reported, and I know about her ads. I am responding to what I know in these areas, and the general perception I have among people I know.


    I haven't seen Clinton's ads. And I (none / 0) (#75)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 11:46:46 PM EST
    realize the reporting is too focused on "balance."  Just really disconcerting to see today's Clinton headline is re immigration.  I'm worried Donald Trump may be getting another chance w/voters.  

    I too have been worrying that 'immigration' (none / 0) (#101)
    by vml68 on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:05:15 PM EST
    is what will make people give Trump a second look.
    We re-elected Dubya because of fear after 9/11 and the Iraq war.
    With all the terrorist attacks stoking fear of muslims and also the fear of losing IT jobs to H1-B workers from India and China and service industry jobs to undocumented immigrants, I am afraid that Trump will pick up more votes than he otherwise could by playing to that.
    I am just hoping it will not be enough to make a difference.

    The attack came after, no? (none / 0) (#71)
    by MKS on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:39:29 PM EST
    You think she should have talked bout Terrorism and what nutball Trump is?

    It's just the optics and google news. (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:40:40 PM EST
    Did you hear Robert Siegel's interview of (none / 0) (#61)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 09:24:00 PM EST
    ex Treasury Secretary Larry Summers a couple of days ago?  Here it is.

    Stunning (none / 0) (#82)
    by pitachips on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:38:22 AM EST
    This should be blared across all media but then again it's no surprise why there's little appetite to admit what he did.

    Summers keeps a couple of the posters (none / 0) (#135)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:09:50 PM EST
    here on retainer I think.

    What do they say? the money is always right?

    Meanwhile, you wave your hands too much and talk about billionaires rigging the system in their favor and you're the Hillside Strangler.


    GOP announces Tebow as a speaker (none / 0) (#66)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:09:10 PM EST
    Tebow says, ummm no I'm not.

    How can (none / 0) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 14, 2016 at 10:34:19 PM EST
    they be so wrong so much? This is the Nth speaker that they have "announced" who said me? No, i'm not speaking.

    Check out Andy Borowitz (none / 0) (#154)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:49:22 PM EST
    re Tebow/GOP roster of speakers.

    The anti-Trump (none / 0) (#79)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:51:53 AM EST
    people in the GOP lost in the rules committee. So there will be no turning out Trump.

    Apparently the GOP knows their convention is going to be a disaster because they asked the city of Cleveland to buy more liability insurance.

    Always a non-starter (none / 0) (#86)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 09:51:39 AM EST
    in my opinion.   And, now watch as most of this crowd will (a) vote for Trump, (b) not vote for Trump, but "can't vote for Hillary " (cf. Bush,Jeb) which means they are voting for Trump.  Of course, the vote for Trump wingers will find solace and cover in the steadfast, rock solid Evangelical wingnut. Pence.  Trump bad, Pence good, hence, Trump is good. That is, if the Trump kids are able to convince Dad to stick to their choice.

    well (none / 0) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 10:52:37 AM EST
    cruising around the Trump supporting friends I have on Facebook it seems to have made no difference. I guess we'll see when new polls come out if it changes anything.

    Trump Tweets (none / 0) (#89)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 10:12:54 AM EST
    That it's Pence.  

    Oh, this will (none / 0) (#91)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 10:41:46 AM EST
    do wonders for Trump with women voters---not.

    I have a serious (none / 0) (#93)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:05:10 AM EST
    who won't stfu suitor to buy my property.  I'm seriously considering selling it to him and building and living in a barn

    Captain, (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:35:40 AM EST
    the first part sounds good. If you have someone ready and raring to go, and the price is right, it could be a good deal.  No broker fees, no annoying house showing. The second part, living in a barn, does not sound as good as the first part. Find a beautiful setting to your liking and a good place for your dogs. And, a nice house.  Free advise, and probably of the same value. But, whatever you do will be the right move for you, I am sure.

    Do you have a particular barn (none / 0) (#96)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:16:22 AM EST
    in mind? Is it in your current locale?

    I don't have a particular style (none / 0) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:28:30 AM EST
    Yet.  This is very new.  But I am totally newly into pole barn construction.  It's almost unbelievably cheap.  One of the first things I thought of, living as I do in tornado alley, was safety.  It turns out that because of the way they are built, that is on 6x6 poles sunk 4 feet into the ground (or the more delux version of concrete poles) and because of the way the roof and other parts of the structure are connected to thise poles they are just about the safest construction around for high winds.

    As far as location.  Like I said this is new.  It would be very cheap and easy here.  My brother in law would probably give me some choice acerage.

    I love the idea of the big open space that I finish (or not) inside.   To give you an idea a basic (without specialty Windows or porches - which I would have ) 30x50x12 building built is about 10-12 thousand.  That's a shell.  Which I love.


    Interesting! My sister's beau has some very nice (none / 0) (#107)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    acreage in Mississippi that she has talked about me having a little cabin on at some point if they get married, I retire, etc. This would be perfect.

    Here's a (none / 0) (#112)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 01:08:20 PM EST
    pretty good site

    There are many.


    That is a DYI site (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 01:10:48 PM EST
    There are plenty who will build it for you.  For not much more.  Again, it's a shell.

    There is a local one here I've been looking at that cheaper than this


    Aforementioned sister's beau is very good at stuff (none / 0) (#123)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:17:55 PM EST
    like this. Repaired his own barns and neighbor's after big storms, is a licensed electrician, all that kind of stuff.  If this ends  up being my plan I have no doubt he is up to the task!

    Maybe he has a brother!


    ...for either you or me :-) (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:18:12 PM EST
    Ha (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 03:39:15 PM EST
    I considered DYI but a) painintheazz and b) I want it done well and right.  A handy man is always good!

    Finishing the inside is quite enough for me.  I love the idea of starting with an open space and going from there.  I love open space.  The one thing I don't like about this house is there isn't much of that.  And the ceilings are low.  Big open space and lots of light.  The more I think about it the more I like the idea.   I coukd sell my house for enough to put up a delux one pretty much totally.  Including hooking up to water and sewer.  The. Get to play decorator.


    There was a high-end version of your dream (none / 0) (#137)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:36:41 PM EST
    home at the Shelburne Village museum about ten years ago.  As an extreme contrast with the museum's 17th century building collection, Butler Steel erected a smallish steel building.  Inside, they constructed a domicile by stacking converted shipping containers.  It was very cool.  There were a couple of ordinary exterior doors but there were at least two glass rollup doors the size you'd find on an old studio sound stage.  Huge walls of glass.  This place was all altitude within.  With the vintage Eames furnishings and dotted with oddments and curiosities from the museum collection, it was a stunning home.

    I went thru (none / 0) (#138)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 04:39:32 PM EST
    My shipping container phase about a year ago.  Yes.  Very cool stuff.   But sort of a pain and lots of specialized work.

    But if I had about twice as much money to spend as I have, totally.


    Those look (none / 0) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 11:19:34 AM EST
    really interesting and great for retirement. Looks like zero maintenance. My husband used to be a salesman for metal buildings but the industrial ones.

    Military coup underway in Turkey (none / 0) (#145)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:32:58 PM EST
    Unclear how the people in he street feel about it. Waving flags but there is no audio or interviews of them.

    meanwhile, in the person of Erdogan, (none / 0) (#148)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:40:12 PM EST
    whose plane circles the skies while his administration circles the drain, Frau Merkel has finally met a Muslim refugee she won't take in

    Sort of encouraging (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:46:38 PM EST
    That the military shut down social media and people are still getting on social media via sneak arounds like vpn

    Apparently, President Erdogan is now ... (none / 0) (#150)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:48:11 PM EST
    ... asking the Dutch government for permission to land. Did the as-of-now attempted coup commence while Erdogan was out of the country, or did he flee once it got underway?

    The situation inside Turkey is still fluid at this point, because while military rebels have apparently seized control of Istanbul, it's not at all clear whether they've managed to do the same in the capital of Ankara, which is 280 miles to the southeast in central Turkey. But as of right now, it would seem that the rebels have gained the upper hand.



    He was on vacation at the Black Sea. (none / 0) (#153)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:48:48 PM EST
    Turkey's relationship (none / 0) (#157)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:55:33 PM EST
    w/Germany hit a rocky spot recently due to German parliament's deciding what happened to the Armenians at the hands of the Turks was genocide.

    The Irish Mirror is reporting that ... (none / 0) (#161)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:58:33 PM EST
    ... President Erdogan fled Turkey in a private jet once it became clear that a coup was underway against him. What a guy! He tells citizens to take to the streets and oppose the coup, while he bails on them.

    Erdogan's plane was denied (none / 0) (#162)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:01:42 PM EST
    permission to land in Istanbul.

    I wonder why they did that? (none / 0) (#170)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:18:35 PM EST
    Why not allow him to land, and then arrest / detain him once he deplanes?

    It dos not look like the military really (none / 0) (#174)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:37:50 PM EST
    has control.

    To say the least.


    It looks like part of the military (none / 0) (#176)
    by oculus on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:39:43 PM EST
    is responsible for the coup and another part of the military is trying to quash the coup.

    ... to purge those career officers who have not been on board with his policies, and replace them with men of his own choosing.

    Obama's just-released statement ... (none / 0) (#179)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:45:33 PM EST
    ... supporting the "democratically elected government" may be reflective of that situation. Just my observation at this point, but the military better be prepared to do whatever it takes to seize complete control of the situation in Ankara within the next few hours, or else there's a strong likelihood that its coup attempt will collapse as its opposition becomes emboldened.

    you bet (none / 0) (#184)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:54:43 PM EST
    & Erdogan will come back stronger & more ruthless than ever

    it gets worse (none / 0) (#164)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:03:46 PM EST
    #PrayForTurkey now trending on Twitter - unclear which/whose deity should be addressed in this case

    Whichever diety has been remade ... (none / 0) (#167)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:12:17 PM EST
    ... in their own image, most likely.

    Erdogan tells the people to take to the streets (none / 0) (#151)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:48:14 PM EST
    and what, fight the tanks on their own while he flies to London? Nice guy.

    real nice guy (none / 0) (#155)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:50:51 PM EST
    after all, the last time they hit the streets en masse, during the Gezi Park protests, he crushed them

    & now there are indeed reports of soldiers firing on civilians trying to cross the Bosporus Bridge in Istanbul


    They are saying (none / 0) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:55:55 PM EST
    The police are supporting the government and conflicts between them and the military.

    They had the bridge shooting live on the video on (none / 0) (#159)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:56:42 PM EST
    MSNBC. Some wounded people carried off.

    AP (none / 0) (#156)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:54:23 PM EST
    Report: Soldiers fire on people trying to cross Istanbul's Bosporus bridge in protest of attempted coup.

    They (none / 0) (#160)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 05:58:13 PM EST
    were airing it live on CNN, plenty of gunfire heard, possibly a couple of people shot. Looks relatively quiet now.

    Saw footage on twitter of shots being fired from a (none / 0) (#166)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:09:30 PM EST
    helicopter too, at civilians.

    ... in an attack by a helicopter gunship on police HQ in Ankara.

    He seems to know his country better than I do (none / 0) (#177)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:41:47 PM EST
    (no surprise there) and his plan is working.

    Is there a connection between the Obama-Kerry's statement of support for the democratically elected government and the fact that this coup does not appear to be succeeding?  I think the military probably hoped for our support.


    Ah, Ankara is under more control of the coup (none / 0) (#178)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:43:43 PM EST

    We'll see. (none / 0) (#182)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:53:47 PM EST
    I'm starting to think that this coup attempt may well collapse, given the increased resistance to it over the last few hours.

    The coup leaders (none / 0) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:58:18 PM EST
    Have F16s.  And they are in the air.  

    That's the pertinent question right now. They're obviously in control of Istanbul and Turkish Thrace. But there's no indication that they've managed to secure Ankara, which is the seat of government. And it looks as though the government is still hanging tough.

    If the coup leaders have control of the air, they had better be prepared to actually use those F-16s against those in active resistance, and not just fly repeatedly over them in shows of intimidation.

    N doubt, we'll see soon enough as to which side will prevail.


    UPDATE: Per BBC 4 minuts ago, ... (none / 0) (#192)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:36:08 PM EST
    ... the Turkish parliament building has been attacked from the air. This development indicates that in all likelihood, the military rebels are not in control of Ankara. If the government is to fall, the rebels are probably going to have to escalate the situation dramatically, which means launching a major assault in the Turkish capital against those who are still loyal to President Erdogan. But do they have sufficient forces in place to do so and more importantly, do the troops have the will to do so?

    Reuters is reporting that ... (none / 0) (#194)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:45:06 PM EST
    ... the TRT, the state-run Turkish broadcasting service out of Istanbul, is back on the air and still under government control. The coup attempt now appears to be teetering on the brink of failure.

    if still under govt control, (none / 0) (#195)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:49:00 PM EST
    TNT will tend to broadcast govt propaganda, no?

    saying the coup is about to fail doesn't necessarily make that so

    i'll wait & see


    Reuters is reporting that ... (none / 0) (#198)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:52:45 PM EST
    ... the regular TRT broadcasting staff is presently on the air, sharing stories about being held hostage by rebels. Pro-government factions apparently stormed the building and retaken it.

    as of about 20 minutes ago (none / 0) (#199)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:57:26 PM EST
    CNN in Turkey was reporting that coup soldiers had taken over its studios

    You're right, I stand corrected on that. (none / 0) (#203)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 08:11:53 PM EST
    But elsewhere in Istanbul, the military rebels clearly lost control of the TRT studios, and are running into resistance from civilians themselves.

    In Ankara, there are reports of numerous explosions at the Parliament Building, indicating a possible battle taking place there.

    This situation is still wildly fluid at this point, but if the rebels don't regain the upper hand soon, I really can't see how this coup will succeed. Far from having silenced the government, its spokespersons are presently all over the airwaves.



    Addams, I'm following BBC live. (none / 0) (#200)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:59:37 PM EST
    LINK. They are reporting that pro-government forces have seized CNN-Turkey studios in Istanbul and told everyone to get out. Reports from downtown Istanbul indicate that at least some rebel soldiers are laying down their arms in Taksim Square and surrendering to the police, who've apparently remained loyal to the government.

    Not a good sign for the coup plotters, because this indicates that they've lost control of Ataturk International Airport.

    unless i'm mistaken, (none / 0) (#183)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:53:49 PM EST
    a US administration is not legally permitted to back a military coup in Turkey or anywhere else (such as Egypt . . . )

    Turkey palet cleanser (none / 0) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 06:02:38 PM EST

    Looks like Mike has been penetrated.

    In non-Trump, non-Turkish coup news, ... (none / 0) (#188)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:25:28 PM EST
    ... ... those long-awaited 28 pages from the Select Committee 2003 report on 9/11 were released today, and having just read them quickly, they appear from my perspective to raise even more questions about the behavior of our Saudi Arabian "ally" during the period in question than they answer.

    Scanned (none / 0) (#189)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:33:09 PM EST
    them earlier, no smoking gun, but a whole lot of circumstantial evidence pointing at Saudi involvement.

    Absolutely. (none / 0) (#193)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:38:40 PM EST
    And per these pages, there were significant if tangential links between some of the 9/11 plotters and Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar and his wife.

    Bandar Bush? (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 07:49:46 PM EST
    Holy crap.

    report just now (none / 0) (#202)
    by The Addams Family on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 08:06:51 PM EST
    that Erdogan's plane took off again after an explostion at airport

    i'm signing off - TL can't compete with Twitter!

    So is the Los Angeles Times. (L.A. has a rather large expatriate Turkish population.)

    Clinton's 'steady leader in an unsteady world' (none / 0) (#205)
    by ruffian on Fri Jul 15, 2016 at 08:33:16 PM EST
    ad just came on. Wonder if that was pre planned or rapid response?

    As someone who's had purchase ad time and place them for candidates, I would offer that this ad was very likely slotted for this date sometime earlier.