Senate Rejects Gun Control Measures

By Jeralyn, Section Legislation
Posted on Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 07:17:33 PM EST
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The Senate today failed to pass amendments to appropriation bills funding background checks on guns and sharing state mental health records with the feds.

Senators voted 53-47 on a proposal from Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) that would reauthorize funding for the National Criminal Instant Background Check System (NICS) and incentivize states to share mental health records with the federal system.

Then there was Sen. Diane Feinstein's amendment, also properly voted down:

Feinstein’s amendment would allow the attorney general to block the sale of a gun or explosive if there’s a “reasonable suspicion” an individual has or will be involved in a terrorist attack. It would allow the attorney general to block the sale of a gun to anyone under a terror investigation in the past five years.

There were four measures all together. The Senate failed to pass all of them. These kinds of laws will do nothing to reduce gun violence or stop terrorists. They will infringe on the privacy and liberty rights of the rest of us. Guns do not cause the rage. They are the means by which people express them. These laws are band-aids that fail to treat the infection.

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Senate Rejects Gun Control Measures | 71 comments (71 topical)

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Not only are the Senators (5.00 / 1) (#1)
by Peter G on Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 07:36:24 PM EST

"not a scientist," but apparently they also don't understand simple arithmetic. I seem to recall learning, perhaps in junior high school, that 53 was a solid majority of 100, and would carry the vote. And the filibuster was an exceptional tactic reserved for issues that one or more senators felt deserved an extraordinary effort at opposition. Now, the 60 votes needed to overcome a filibuster is necessary to pass any legislation through the Senate. In other words, obstructionism against democracy is the norm.

: The difference this cycle I thnk (none / 0) (#13)
by CaptHowdy on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 07:47:20 AM EST

Is that democrats, well, most democrats - the usual suspects like Manchin and Hedi voted with the repeblicsns, but most democrats including our presidential nominee are no longer running from this issue. They are running on it. And it's going to work. Republicans are going to lose because of these votes in November. Don't know how many but the tide is turning.

I don't know what the "perfect" law is (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by christinep on Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 08:53:20 PM EST

in the area of gun regulation in the U.S. I am assuming, tho, that--unless one holds the position that the 2nd Amendment is an absolute guarantee to purchase, transfer, any manner of firearm and any manner of ammunition in this country--there must be some regulatory measure addressing the extraordinary violence in this country involving various firearms considered acceptable by those seriously concerned about undue restriction of constitutional rights.

Jeralyn: Those of us who more and more support a serious attempt to regulate gun usage to address gun-related mass violence (such as so-called army assault-modeled weaponry in urban areas) often hear a why-it-won't-work response or a general & immediate "no." I understand, for the most part, what is opposed; but, I do think that there comes a time when it is fair to ask what those opposed support in gun regulation, what one would support, specifically.

Possessing a firearm is a constitutional right (5.00 / 5) (#5)
by Peter G on Mon Jun 20, 2016 at 10:45:42 PM EST

just like a pregnant woman's right to choose whether to have an abortion. On that basis, I suggest that any store that sells firearms be required to be equipped as a licensed emergency room, with a physician on call if not on the premises, and that no one in Texas should be allowed to purchase a firearm unless he drives five hours to one of the six locations in the State that can meet that requirement, receive counseling on any possible bad outcome of firearm use or possession that has a 1% risk of occurring, and then return at least 24 hours later to complete the purchase. That wouldn't be any kind of undue burden on exercise of the right, would it?

: "Possessing" the gun (none / 0) (#71)
by jbindc on Thu Jun 23, 2016 at 05:19:56 PM EST

is indeed, a constitutional right. However, that constitutional right only extends to the end of a gun owner's arm, so to speak, as you know. Gun owners do NOT have a right, constitutional or otherwise, to take the types of guns Mateen had, walk into a nightclub and start shooting. They do NOT have a constitutional right to shoot those guns, under MOST circumstances.
But let's talk about other constitutional rights. Everyone in that club had constitutional rights too. Under the First Amendment, they had the right to freely associate, among others. Why do gun owners around the country love to spout that the Orlando shooter had constitutional rights, but don't seem to give a rat's a$S that he violated all those other people's constitutional rights? Isn't getting shot and killed an "undue burden" on the exercise of those rights?

I'm not surprised (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by jbindc on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 07:37:34 AM EST

I mean, a MEMBER OF CONGRESS and FEDERAL JUDGE were shot, not to mention TWENTY+ FIRST GRADERS, and Republicans and the NRA offered their thoughts and prayers, and then just yawned.

Sorry Jeralyn, you're just completely wrong. States with the strictest gun control laws have lower incidences of gun deaths, while states with looser gun laws have much higher incidences of death -think that's just a coincidence? And of course, one need look no further than Australia, who under a conservative government, passed strict gun control measures 20 years ago, which has resulted in ZERO mass shootings since then, but has reduced gun violence overall by 50 percent. Think that's a coincidence too?

BTW, (5.00 / 3) (#21)
by desertswine on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 01:41:31 PM EST

Here's a list of the 10 states with the most firearm violence (via the Wall Street Journal), as expressed by deaths per 100,000 population. I was a little surprised as I had expected to see maybe Illinois, New York, or California on the list, and did not. All of the states, but one, are red states. Most of the deaths are suicides.

In fact, none of the states with the most gun violence require permits to purchase rifles, shotguns, or handguns. Gun owners are also not required to register their weapons in any of these states. Meanwhile, many of the states with the least gun violence require a permit or other form of identification to buy a gun.

While federal gun laws are uniform across the country, state regulations vary, offering more lax or more strict approaches to firearm use. Seven of the 10 states with the most firearm deaths in 2013 have enacted stand your ground laws.

The correlation between gun violence and poverty is undeniable. But the poor do not start wars. Personaly, I think that all automatic, semi-automatic and military style weapons do not belong in private hands.


Moving the definitions again, JB? (none / 0) (#12)
by Mr Natural on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 07:45:30 AM EST

The 2014 Hunt family murders in New South Wales resulted in five gun deaths.


: Ooh! You got me! (none / 0) (#15)
by jbindc on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 09:49:21 AM EST

1 mass shooting that was a murder-suicide
My.Bad.
It still doesn't change the fact that strict gun control measures WORK.
Nice try, though.

: BTW, Mr. Natural (none / 0) (#17)
by jbindc on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 11:28:41 AM EST

Domestic incidences that take place in the home are not considered mass shootings.
But like I said, nice try. You'll have to do better than that, though.

States and Gun Laws..." (none / 0) (#14)
by NycNate on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 09:33:41 AM EST

" States with the strictest gun control laws have lower incidences of gun deaths, while states with looser gun laws have much higher incidences of death"

What about cities with strict gun laws?


If the host's unbending attitude toward (none / 0) (#24)
by jondee on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 02:44:03 PM EST

any form of gun control has anything to do with the influence of Hunter Thompson, one should keep in mind that rumour has it Hunter liked to make a show of flashing guns around in large part because he was worried that the Hells Angels were still pissed off at him.


Jondee, that's not true at all. (5.00 / 1) (#38)
by fishcamp on Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 11:22:32 AM EST

HST was not afraid of the Angels. After he got beat up by them, he and the presidents of the five California chapters came to an agreement. He could write about them as long as they got paid some of the book or magazine profits.

He didn't make a show of flashing guns around Owl Farm, he just brought out a gun and shot it at different targets. I was there many times and know what was going on. He did like to shoot things that blew up, we all did. Nothing was out of control, like many think. He did get a bit upset when I out shot him almost every time on long distance targets. My eyes were better than his, but he was a good shot. I tried to talk him into getting a Barrett's sniper rifle so we could shoot even farther, but he wouldn't get one because he knew he couldn't outshoot me at long distances.

BTW he had the artist, Ralph Steadman, do a series of paintings that he shot with his 12 gauge shotgun, and sold for thousands of dollars each. None of this matters now, because he's gone.


Of all your celebrity encounters (5.00 / 1) (#39)
by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 11:28:17 AM EST

HST and Ralph (especially Ralph) make me envious. Stead an has been a god to me since the early 70s.


: Ralph Steadman was a quiet Englishman (5.00 / 2) (#40)
by fishcamp on Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 12:25:32 PM EST

until he met HST and started the weird Gonzo drawings for Hunters books and magazine articles. In fact he was a landscape artist, and studied design. His studio in London is filled with Maxfield Parrish type paintings. His hidden, but tiny, wild side popped out a few times at Owl Farm when the shooting started. Steady is the one who came up with the idea of Hunter shooting his art and selling it. They did it for the money. Ralph has a website where you can buy his Gonzo art in the form of iPhone covers, bats and all. His website is quite extensive.
BTW my favorite celebrity encounter was with Angi Dickinson in Venice, Italy.

And as a follow up.. (none / 0) (#25)
by jondee on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 02:53:29 PM EST

what route do the guns take to arrive in cities with strict gun laws?


Guns to stores (none / 0) (#28)
by fishcamp on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 08:01:38 PM EST

probably travel in bond from one broker to another. We had to send film that way from Europe to the U S so they could collect one and a half cents per foot tax on film exposed outside of this country, even if it was Kodak film made here. The broker also guaranteed customs that the exposed film was not pornographic. It's a different situation, but they do have brokers that handle guns.


I was thinking of the guns (none / 0) (#57)
by jondee on Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 05:38:28 PM EST

that start out in the hands of out-of-state "one time private sellers" and make their way onto the mean streets of Detroit and Chicago..

We had a guy here last year who had a cache of AK47s in a gun safe, one of which found it's way into the hands of some young gangbangers who ended up mowing down three other young people in front of the Boys and Girls Club.


: Those guns... (none / 0) (#67)
by kdog on Thu Jun 23, 2016 at 11:09:10 AM EST

take the same route as the drugs and the bootleg cigarettes and the undocumented immigrants. What is the Interstate Highway System?
Have we thought of ripping up the pavement? ;)

Currently I cannot open a bottle of aspirin (5.00 / 3) (#16)
by ruffian on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 09:58:54 AM EST

or any other medication without a pair of scissors due to anti-tamper regulations that went in place after 7 (7! wow!) people were poisoned in 1982 by someone tampering with Tylenol bottles in stores. They did not even conclusively discover the perpetrator, much less fix the societal ills that created such a person - they put a band-aid on the problem in the form of nearly impenetrable seals on the bottles. Was that overkill? Probably but I do not hear any protesting about it - it seems like common sense.

So I don't see why basic common sense things like background checks at gun shows and stopping future sales of military grade weapons cannot be done in the meantime while we solve mental illness, poverty, religious hatred, bigotry, and all the rest (hint: never).

Nor can you buy the only kind of (5.00 / 2) (#18)
by Peter G on Tue Jun 21, 2016 at 11:34:49 AM EST

nasal decongestant that actually works (pseudoephedrine) in cost-efficient quantity, nor at all without showing ID and going into a federal database. Because a few idiots like to melt it down it large quantities to make meth.


Couple things (none / 0) (#49)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 03:33:17 PM EST

First, seal-less bottles are not listed in the Constitution.

Second, most (almost all) guns have been "military grade" since guns were invented.


Right....our military today would love to use (none / 0) (#51)
by ruffian on Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 04:18:30 PM EST

a musket. I am sick to death of these debates about the detailed tech specs of various guns when everyone knows the ones we are talking about that we want restricted. We mean the kind that can kill 17 people in five seconds. That's the kind I mean.


When muskets were commonly used by the military, (5.00 / 1) (#53)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 04:41:42 PM EST

they were also commonly used by civilians.

When blunderbusses were commonly used by the military, they were commonly used by civilians as well.

When revolvers were commonly used by the military, they were also commonly used by civilians.

The guns citizens use are, and have always been based on military designs, and have been/are almost always manufactured to military quality.

A big difference today is that while military rifles are largely capable of automatic fire, very few civilians legally own automatics.


All right, you tell me (none / 0) (#58)
by ruffian on Wed Jun 22, 2016 at 06:05:34 PM EST

How many people do civilian gun owners need to be able to kill per minute in order to feel their rights are intact and they are safe in their beds at night? 5? 10? That should cover a home invasion situation. I'll let them set the limit.


: freedom (none / 0) (#66)
by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 23, 2016 at 11:01:40 AM EST

And what you leave out (none / 0) (#62)
by jbindc on Thu Jun 23, 2016 at 05:47:44 AM EST

Is that weapons in many towns, had to be stored at the town armory - individuals did not have personal arsenals in their homes.

Also, that while thing about the many peoplepeople who could not own guns in many towns - Catholics, Jews, Blacks, women, non landowners, etc. -despite what you see on TV and the movies.


Sure, history is fascinating. (none / 0) (#63)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 23, 2016 at 10:37:01 AM EST

Although colonial laws generally required militiamen (and sometimes all householders, too) to have their own firearm and a minimum quantity of powder, not everyone could afford it. Consequently, the government sometimes supplied "public arms" and powder to individual militiamen.
Policies varied on whether militiamen who had been given public arms would keep them at home. Public arms would often be stored in a special armory, which might also be the powder house.

"Policies varied." Kinda like how your very own 'burb of DC has its own specific gun laws.


Yes, history is fun (none / 0) (#65)
by jbindc on Thu Jun 23, 2016 at 10:58:52 AM EST

When we think of settlers of colonial America and the 19th-century Wild West, we often picture fearless frontiersmen defending hearth and home from predators. But while gun possession is as old as the country, so is gun regulation.
In 1619, the Virginia House of Burgesses passed a law making the transfer of guns to Native Americans punishable by death. Other laws across the colonies criminalized selling or giving firearms to slaves, indentured servants, Catholics, vagrants and those who refused to swear a loyalty oath to revolutionary forces. Guns could be confiscated or kept in central locations for the defense of the community. And in the late 1700s and early 1800s, the state and federal governments conducted several arms censuses. (Imagine what the NRA would say if government officials went door to door today asking people how many guns they owned and whether they were functional.)
On the western frontier in the 19th century, to stave off violence, new towns and cities enacted laws to bar carrying guns. In fact, the typical western town had stricter gun laws than many 21st-century states. Today, four states have completely eliminated permits for handgun ownership and carrying.

And of course, the NRA used to be sane too.


: I must admit I did not realize how much (none / 0) (#68)
by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jun 23, 2016 at 11:15:05 AM EST

conflict there was between the Protestants and Catholics in early America.
It is almost impossible to overstate the anti-Catholicism of colonial Americans. It was brought with them from England, of course.
Much of the sense of being a Briton was tied up with being Protestant. "Rule Britannia" expresses the anti-French, anti-Catholic sentiments of the British people at this time: When the chorus of that song proclaims that "Brit