Thursday Open Thread

It's a jail day for me, at least it's in the mountains.

Here's an open thread for you, all topics welcome.

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    Wonders of nature (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 19, 2016 at 07:13:37 PM EST
    Just having a sandwich in the kitchen and I see this giant bird swoop by the window.

    I think COOL there an eagle or some kind of giant hawk in my back yard.

    Then I got my glasses and discovered it was a buzzard eating a dead possum murdered by the dogs.

    Hillary Clinton & the media (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by mogal on Thu May 19, 2016 at 10:13:48 PM EST
    I spent a lot of time  on the internet today reading news outlets, and all  the usual "liberal" bloggs and twitters and I did not read one positive article about Hillary Clinton. What is going on?  

    And not only her (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Nemi on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:56:36 AM EST
    An article about Bill Clinton's visit to Puerto Rico not only showed a picture of him looking worn out, hair all spikey and tussled, but also stated that he made an only ten minutes long speech and then he was gone.

    But Hillary's flickr-site tells quite another story: He obviously made several speeches, visited factories, stores, eateries, talked to people. If someone looked into his schedule I'm sure he must have had a very buzy day.

    But I guess the media doesn't consider that a 'good' story ...?


    The discussion of Sanders and the Clintons (5.00 / 6) (#23)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:00:55 AM EST
    in the other thread got me thinking, so thanks for that. Aldo, I watched a documentary on Showtime about Russell Brand last night. I did not realize that since OWS he has been talking about the need for revolution and even wrote a book called The Revolution. He is a very articulate and intelligent spokesman for many of Bernie's views - and also is able to use humor to show the ridiculousness of the news media in a way few can.  Cant Howdy, as a regular Morning Joe viewer, you would love the clips of his appearances on that show. Mika was having a very hard time dealing with the whole Brand Experience - that is what she called it! Brand does not even thin k politics are the way to get the needed change.

    Regarding The Clintons, it struck me that both them and Sanders could have done anything they wanted with their educations. They all had a pull for social justice issues and the Clintons went to Arkansas where Bill knew help was needed, and Bernie left arguably the ground zero of the need for economic justice to go to Vermont. Even Obama, who has been criticized for not doing enough, picked the South side of Chicago to do what he could. Maybe the South Bronx and the areas depicted in the movie 'Show Me a Hero' could have benefitted from Bernie's passion.

    Now maybe Bernie has no taste for the real adversarial political fray of party politics and the give and take needed to get stuff accomplished - there is no crime in that - most of us don't ether, and neither really does Russell Brand, though he too has all the right ideas.

    I guess I am just making the same point I have made in may different ways, that ideas are not enough to be a political leader. A movement leader, maybe, but not a political leader. And that is what this particular job entails.

    Bingo (5.00 / 3) (#32)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:59:27 AM EST
    The great warrior against injustice and inequality chose to fight his battles on the bloody fields of Vermont, rather than those cakewalk battles in Brooklyn, Chicago or the Rural South.

    Very heroic of him.


    Interesting piece (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Nemi on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:30:14 AM EST
    from 1999, Bernie the Bomber's Bad Week. There are many quote-worthy parts, but I think the following pretty much sums it up: Bernie Sanders doesn't give a damn about anything but himself:

    Indeed, when challenged publicly about his failure to help build
    a left alternative to the major capitalist parties, Sanders claims he is now too busy with his work in Congress to be bothered.

    It's a head scratcher, at least to me, that he has come this far.


    I think Bernie Sanders (5.00 / 3) (#68)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:03:48 AM EST
    was in his proper element in the US Senate. The contributions he has made were not in legislation, but in provocative stimulation.  There is a place for a gadfly in that legislative body, and I thank the good people of Vermont for adding Sanders to that mix.

    Many Democrats, including Mrs. Clinton, it seems, underestimated the acceptance and success of a gadfly campaign.  A continuation of his senatorial tactics to the national political stage, especially with the attractiveness of an "outsider," I.e., someone not known to many despite Sanders being in Congress for 30 years.

     And, slogans, such as "health care is a right not a privilege," seemed so fresh, millionaires and billionaires, appears to be so hip. Ready made for T-shirts, and better style than Trump's tractor caps.

    For those Democrats expecting more than slogans, especially for major economic transformations, Sanders was wanting.  Still looking for his definition of Democratic Socialist, how he will break up the banks, his positions on foreign affairs, beyond talking to the King of Jordan and voting against the Iraq resolution (although not funding), and, of course, what should be a simple thing for him, release of his income tax returns.

    For me, it was not thrilling to hear repetitions of the same stump speech. Or, to see him mislead his ardent and fervent supporters.  And, it is beyond comprehension that Sanders continues, with the menace of Trump, to  threaten a Democratic victory. I continue to appreciate Senator Sanders, and, thank him for his work.  However, every professional should know when it is time to go.  


    I forgot Harry Reid is retiring (none / 0) (#84)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:28:34 PM EST
    I wonder how Sanders will fare under Majority Leader Schumer? Even I don't like the sound of that, and I'm no Harry Reid fan.

    Bernie (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:42:52 PM EST
    is actually a long time pal of Schumer, who helped get Sanders into the Senate in the first place, with some(slightly laundered) wall street cash no less.

    Hmmm, Wall Street money (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Nemi on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:03:00 PM EST
    and Schumer 'voting for the war' -- wonder if Sanders is also questioning his judgment?

    Outstanding. No worries then I suppose. (5.00 / 3) (#127)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:16:06 PM EST
    You're only bought and paid for by Wall Street if you oppose Bernie.

    All talk (none / 0) (#34)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:04:27 AM EST
    and no action for the most part.

    We all are where we are. (none / 0) (#91)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 20, 2016 at 01:28:57 PM EST
    I ended up out here for reasons that had nothing to do with social consciousness, and quite honestly had no plans at the time to stay for any extended period. Yet 30 years later, here I am.

    The Vermont of 40 years ago is not the Vermont of today. When Bernie Sanders was elected mayor of post-industrial Burlington, many of its residents considered its best days to be behind them. They decided to go with the socialist because everyone else prior had failed to meet expectations. He proved to be both innovative and pragmatic, and the city rebounded and thrived under his leadership.

    I don't begrudge the fact that Bernie left Brooklyn for Vermont, just as I would hope that nobody would judge me harshly for having left L.A. for Hawaii.



    IMO (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:53:13 AM EST
    Bernie and many of his supporters subscribe to the white knight theory of politics. If we just elect the white knight everything will be just fine is how the theory goes ignoring the fact that we have a congress and a senate. Strangely that theory is more in line with dictators than a democracy.

    I forgot to add that when you (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:34:32 AM EST
    try to accomplish a lot of things, some of the things you accomplish end up having mixed outcomes in the long run. You can hold out for what you think will be perfect, and not get anything down, or work with people and get most of what you want and try to make it work.   I think Bill Clinton's overall record was pretty good.

    Stumbled across (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Suisser1 on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:55:32 AM EST
    a FB post by Robert Reich this morning, one in which he encourages his followers to continue to "work hard" for Sanders because it's vital to challenge HRCs lead but in the second paragraph to agree to "work hard" for HRC "if" she gets the nomination. The comments prove that his months long attack on HRC has taken root and many won't do the latter... Anyway, I'm trying to get to the bottom of this nagging feeling that there's a vile "what a women is is defined by my gaze and what I say she is, when I say it and that's subject to change depending on how it suits me". Obviously, I'm having a hard time articulating i, but it just feels like a primal form of misogyny that empowers men to endlessly keep a woman on her toes, awaiting the prevailing and fluid assessment of who she is. There's just something so High School male about it. Clearly I'm not hitting the nail on the head at all but it's something I really want to sort out.

    It is hard not to bring personal experience (none / 0) (#38)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:19:20 AM EST
    into our feelings about the situation, even if our own situations are on a much smaller scale. We are wired to pick up on signals of how men are treating women. Even if, as I believe in this case, Reich probably would have said the same thing if Clinton were a man.

    It makes me wonder about what feelings men have been dealing with through all these years of their own political dominance.  It is different in that until recently women have been so powerless that men really did not have to care about women's opinions of them. Now that men do have to care about it - are they sensitive about what women say? For example of Warren or Clinton said something unsupportive of them, does it trip their own wiring in some way? I'm sure it must.


    It does (none / 0) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:31:52 AM EST
    Oh yeah..  It does.   Men are pathetically insecure creatures mostly.   You (I think) talked about pecking order and teamwork.   Exactly.  Men were skittish enough worrying about their place in the pecking order relative to other men now they are told they have worry about WOMEN being pecked before them.

    As a person on what you might call the cusp of gender, who has most of the outward traits of these men I have taken a pleasure at watching them adapt over the years that borders on cruelty.

    For example this whole thing about "showering with gays". You heard this a lot in the DADT days and in other contexts.   Here's the down and dirty:  straight men do not "fear" this because the think a gay man is going to aggressively hit in them or something.  A tiny bit of thoughtfully playing that out and it's obviously ridiculous.  What they FEAR is being viewed, and graded, as a sex object.  That's THEIR jobs dammit.


    Most important to me is the pecking order stuff (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:20:22 PM EST
    The general condescending 'I'm in charge, I have always been in charge, and I always will be in charge, and you are less important' attitude. It will really be interesting to see how men people deal with it. I don't think most men or women either even realize how much that attitude is ingrained.

    ha - men people (none / 0) (#82)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:21:39 PM EST
    started to say men, then meant to change it to people. But I do like men-people.

    Exactly, straight men fear that gay men will (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by caseyOR on Fri May 20, 2016 at 03:05:13 PM EST
    treat them the  way they, straight men, treat women. And thatchy will be found lacking.

    That they will be found lacking. (none / 0) (#100)
    by caseyOR on Fri May 20, 2016 at 03:10:55 PM EST
    Not thatchy.

    I thought it was some weird hair growth phenomenon (5.00 / 3) (#144)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:09:35 PM EST
    Hair Club spin-off? (none / 0) (#146)
    by caseyOR on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:14:14 PM EST
    Ha. I believe that (none / 0) (#47)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:36:55 AM EST
    What if he wants me? What if he doesn't!

    I think there is a lot more of this (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by vml68 on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:18:47 PM EST
    What if he doesn't!
    than this
    What if he wants me?

    When I was in college my boyfriend at the time and his friends were discussing a guy living in their dorm they had just found out was gay.
    My boyfriend said he was going to start keeping a knife under his pillow, just in case. I commented that he need not worry since most women were not hitting on him, the odds were the gay guy/s wouldn't be either. His friends got a big laugh out of that, him, not so much.
    That relationship did not end well :-)!


    ... since he confessed to sleeping with a knife under his pillow? It's been my considered experience that when it comes to the topic of sex, the biggest drama queens in the world tend to be young straight men.

    I know, because I was one of them. When I first arrived in college, my opinions about LGBT people were rooted almost entirely in vicious innuendo and stereotype. In 1979-80, relatively few gay men and lesbians were out of the closet as compared to today.

    I simply didn't know any openly gay people back then, which made it almost frighteningly easy for others to play off my innate paranoia and prejudice, thanks in no small part to my white middle class suburban Catholic upbringing.

    That's the funny thing about our irrational fears. They tend to dissipate once we gain a little knowledge and understanding.



    He was all talk, did not even own a knife. (none / 0) (#176)
    by vml68 on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:48:34 PM EST
    I have never been attracted to macho guys, nerds and geeks are my preference :-). And, he was just about the biggest nerd. with a  fragile ego. The knife talk was just posturing to try and look tough in front of the other guys.

    I guess, I could have let his comment slide but it annoyed me because the gay guy they were talking about was a really nice guy and a person I happened to really like.


    In my experience (none / 0) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:07:42 AM EST
    More often than not those "macho guys" who talk about knifes and stuff often wear heavy boots to keep their legs from flyin up in the air when they sit or lie down.

    You would probably be amazed how many gay bashers are really just dealing with their own homosexuality.

    Ive had direct experience with this more than once.


    Oh yes, I have hurled my own share of (none / 0) (#85)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:32:11 PM EST
    irresistible relationship-killing zingers. But hey, if they are going lob a slow one right across the plate...

    Maybe I'm a trans lesbian... (none / 0) (#50)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:43:31 AM EST
    cuz I haven't the slightest clue about these male feelings you guys are talking about.

    Or is it just because I'm (barely!) under 40?  

    I mean I've worked for women, and worked with women, since I joined the workforce. It never felt like anything but totally normal.

    And I've been viewed and graded as a sex object, and kinda like it.  Wish it happened more often, as long as it's a passing grade ! Of course to only be viewed as that all the time would not be fun, but once in awhile? Sign me up! ;)


    I think it is less a factor of your age than it is (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by caseyOR on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:29:37 AM EST
    simply about who you, kdog, are. We all probably know men, even younger men, who are threatened by the rise of the lgbt community and its demands to use public restrooms and other outrageous things.

    It is a sad fact that gay bashing is still a very real thing. And those doing the bashing are not all old men and baby boomers.Haters cross all age and socioeconomic and ethnic lines.

    Homophobia has always been about fear. Fear of not being a "real man" or a "real woman" whatever that might be. Fear of being different. Fear of being judged and found wanting.


    Yeah... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:25:42 AM EST
    there are haters young and old...just more old than young.  And the old witnessed the loss of privilege first hand in real time and lashed out.

    With the young it is learned hatred and learned resentment for lost privilege. The young white straight men have never known privilege like the old white straight men, even though it still exists it's not nearly what it once was.

    I think I'm more typical than atypical in this regard...even my more cavemanish peers are on the same page about equality in the workforce and gay rights and such.  Granted, in a more liberal urban/suburban part of the country, but still.  


    Or sadly, in more than a few cases, ... (none / 0) (#158)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:45:52 PM EST
    ... homophobia is a fear of being found out. Some of the worst homophobes have been gay homophobes, such as former California State Sen. Roy Ashburn (R-Bakersfield), one of the GOP's foremost proponents of the infamous Proposition 8. He was outed in March 2010 with his DUI arrest, after having departed a Sacramento gay bar with a rentboy in tow.

    I did say mostly (none / 0) (#51)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:02:16 AM EST
    I don't think I would get an argument that you are not typical.  Of anything.  It's your best quality IMO.

    A few years ago a guy I know, very LARGE man, bearded etc, great funny guy, good friend, IMO as straight as they come, married for years with kids, sheepishly raised with me the subject of "bears".  If you are unfamiliar with the term in that context a quick google, that you will instantly regret, will tell you anything you want to know.   He had just become aware of this phenom and confessed he was thrilled to learn that he could be someone's sex object.

    It's not universal.  It's common.


    I will consider myself blessed... (none / 0) (#52)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:20:44 AM EST
    and grateful to the forebearers of the civil rights, womens rights, and gay rights movements that I and most of my generation (and the millenials behind us) haven't had to deal with this sh*t like you older cats have.

    To me it's a sign of great progress that so many young liberal women support Bernie Sanders...the plumbing never enters their minds.


    Speaking only for me (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:30:15 AM EST
    My comments had nothing to do with Sanders.

    I did not assume such... (2.00 / 1) (#54)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:38:58 AM EST
    just pointing out how far womens equality has come that young women don't feel the need to reflexively support a female candidate.  

    Last thing I wanted is too drag the horse race into this discussion!  We do enough talking in circles on that front.


    Older women do not feel a "need" (5.00 / 6) (#62)
    by caseyOR on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:22:21 AM EST
    to reflexively support a female candidate either, kdog. C'mon, think about your statement. Do you honestly think that I support Clinton simply because we have the same plumbing? Is that why ruffian and oculus support her?

    As you know, I am thrilled that there is a woman that I can support who is so close to becoming president. Not any woman, mind you. I would never support Palin or Florina or any candidate, male or female, who did not share my values and espouse policies with which i agreed.

    Shattering that glass ceiling is important, very important, to me and many others. It is not more important than electing someone with progressive/liberal values and positions and beliefs and the experience needed to get things done.

    You do women a great disservice when you perpetuate the myth that we are ruled by our vaginas.


    Thank you. (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by oculus on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:28:27 PM EST
    Hi Oculus (none / 0) (#180)
    by athyrio on Sat May 21, 2016 at 12:29:55 AM EST
    do you remember me?

    Oh, yes. Always admired your (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by oculus on Sat May 21, 2016 at 12:43:09 AM EST

    I support Hillary (5.00 / 3) (#179)
    by athyrio on Sat May 21, 2016 at 12:29:14 AM EST
    cause from all I have ever read about her and from others that have known her she is awesome smart...and from a womans standpoint, that is what we need for our first female prez....plus she is strong as iron...she would have to be for all the accusations she has withstood..her skin must be very thick...

    You gals, no... (2.00 / 1) (#66)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:38:14 AM EST
    But there is a tone to the Clinton campaign that a woman's vote is owed to her I think...and I think it plays better to older women who suffered for years under gender inequality, and doesn't play to young women who have never known that struggle...and that's a good sign of the progress made on that front.

    That's all I was trying to say, ineloquently as usual.


    I'll say it another way... (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:58:37 AM EST
    young women may be struggling more than they think they are.

    But by all means...let's first deal with (5.00 / 5) (#83)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:24:02 PM EST
    how the system is rigged against young white men....

    Jenny Diski: (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by oculus on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:46:21 PM EST
    Not knowing much (none / 0) (#194)
    by Nemi on Sat May 21, 2016 at 08:10:08 AM EST
    about Andrea Dworkin - making amends for that - but reading that review, I'm with the author

    Ms Dworkin, of whom I am growing fonder by the minute

    ;) ... all the while growing fond of the writer too, ironi and all. Something btw, the kind of ironi she displays, I believe will be a very effective 'weapon' against the thin skinned Donald Trump.


    Kdog, you've made your views about (5.00 / 4) (#90)
    by vml68 on Fri May 20, 2016 at 01:14:44 PM EST
    Clinton very clear, so maybe this is your bias showing.
    there is a tone to the Clinton campaign that a woman's vote is owed to her I think

    The younger women may not have experienced much gender inequality specially if they are in college or have newly joined the workforce. But, in a few years as they try to climb the ranks, most of them will get a taste of it.

    P.S.- Did you feel the same way about Obama, that there was a tone that the black vote was owed to him?


    In hindsight... (none / 0) (#93)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 01:37:51 PM EST
    yeah, maybe less so with Obama because he cleaned up in the AA community from start to finish and there was no need to imply anything, he had it all the way, never in doubt.  

    I mean Cornel West got vilified for questioning Obama's bonafides...how dare he question him kinda thing, we must have hive mind!  

    That's similar to the vibe, but as I said on second thought it might be coming from the media more so than the campaign itself.  And some of her supporters comments, like Gloria Steinem's "young women like Bernie because the boys like Bernie".  Talk about insulting!

    Never meant to imply sexism and gender discrimination are dead, just far less of an issue for my generation and even less for the ones behind.  Sometimes old dogs keep fighting the old war and the young dogs have moved on to the next war.  For young women, that next war is student loan debt and an economy that does not treat them fairly.  Not because they are women, but because they're in the hole out the gate and running to stand still from there.


    Let's see who gets to the finish (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:26:02 PM EST
    line faster...I predict the men, given the 20% wage differential.

    If young women (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Nemi on Sat May 21, 2016 at 08:26:24 AM EST
    took offense of Gloria Steinem's lighthearted remark, obviously said in gest, if they are that easily offended, they are up for a rude awakening.

    Actually I'm not so sure they were offended so much by the remark as of where it came from: Hillary's camp. Had Bernie Sanders made the same lighthearted observation I very much doubt anyone would have objected ... or even noticed. Including the now allegedly offended men.


    I have never heard Bernie Sanders, (5.00 / 3) (#199)
    by KeysDan on Sat May 21, 2016 at 10:23:51 AM EST
    Make a "light-hearted" observation.  No jokes. Even when the bird landed on his podium, he seemed angry at the bird for interrupting his millionaires and billionaires stump speech.

    Okay. I understand what you were trying (none / 0) (#67)
    by caseyOR on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:46:42 AM EST
    to convey. I disagree with it, but I understand it now.

    Thanks... (none / 0) (#70)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:17:24 AM EST
    on second thought (because you always make me give things a second thought;), it may have been a media creation more so than a reality.  All those "Clinton's Problems With Young Women!" stories during the campaign.

    I find the whole "owed vote" thing stupid anyway...be it women, minorities, lgbt, or just regular liberals.  Votes are earned, not owed...I don't think the Democratic Party gets that, which is why there is so much strife and contention within the party.  

    The GOP gets it now, after getting Trumped by their voters! It might take a Bernie-type winning a Dem nom at some future date for them to get the message that we're tired of owing votes and never collecting the representation we want.


    I understand what you are saying (5.00 / 5) (#75)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:56:10 AM EST
    And if they are implying votes are 'owed' I differ with them. On the other hand, I think young women may be overestimating the amount that the world has really changed for most women and underestimating the good effects a woman president would have on the general psyche and conversation.

    Perhaps... (none / 0) (#94)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 01:49:49 PM EST
    but I don't think supporting Bernie Sanders is much of a threat to womens lib.

    It will be wonderful to break the glass ceiling, but the woman with the hammer matters.  If it was Warren locking this thing up we'd have the best of both worlds, but alas she is smart and wants no part of it;)


    And yet (5.00 / 3) (#97)
    by CoralGables on Fri May 20, 2016 at 02:56:07 PM EST
    you wouldn't have voted for Warren in the NY primary either.

    Largely (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:12:18 AM EST
    I think the women supporting Sanders don't understand not because the world has changed so much so much as the majority of them are in college. When I was in college I had no understanding of that type of thing. Once I got out into the working world I found it to be completely different than I thought it was in college. And they don't care if we get a woman president this time because there's always "next time". The truth is there's probably not going to be a "next time" for a lot of us. Either that or the GOP will be the first to elect a female president. They'll always be another Bernie Sanders.

    Hey, it is okay to not (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:43:12 AM EST
    fit into Howdy's belief of what you should feel...

    I mean, could we get a big "Hell yeah!" for....

    "Who cares!?"


    Spoken like a man who's been graded (none / 0) (#59)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:53:53 AM EST
    You have "beliefs".  I have experience.

    Yes, I've been whistled at (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:27:10 AM EST
    by the ladies as I walked down the line and told I had a nice behind.....the 70's were great years.......  

    But when a gay male claims to be able to tell us what the sexual feelings of straight males are I just grin at the hubris.... It is just like a straight male trying to describe those of a female or a gay person.

    You don't know. I don't know. Now if we can find a bi-sexual....  



    "Stop the Polling Insanity," (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:34:56 AM EST
    by Norman Ornstein (American Enterprise Institute) and Alan Abramowitz (Emory University), NYTimes, May 20 add some sanity to the insanity of the polling, and even sanity, to the interpretations and usage of same.

    Ironically, while this thoughtful article appears on the op ed page, the front page of news reporting presents polling on voter's views of the candidates, without any interpretations or asterisks.

    Happy Birthday, Cher. 70 years old (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by caseyOR on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:47:09 AM EST
    today. What a life she has lived. More talented than she is given credit for.

    No matter what happens in my life i will go to my grave knowing all the words to "I Got You, Babe."

    Totally agree (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:13:07 PM EST
    She makes even shlock entertaining and affective. I give you the Cher of my formative years:

    Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves


    For me (none / 0) (#76)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:57:37 AM EST
    For me, Cher will always be ... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri May 20, 2016 at 02:19:12 PM EST
    ... Laverne Lachinsky, the Queen of Kitsch. She was always a great actress, but her sometimes frivolous TV and tabloid persona overshadowed her talent and nobody took her seriously.

    Robert Altman gave her the big break she needed when he cast her as Sissy in "Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean" on Broadway. Her performance was very well-received by critics and was seen by Mike Nichols, who was casting "Silkwood" at the time and offered her the part of Dolly.

    I think her best film performance is as biker mom Rusty Dennis in Peter Bogdanovich's 1985 drama "Mask."



    Cher had a house in Aspen (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by fishcamp on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:58:53 PM EST
    for several years.  I never skied with her, but did aprez ski with her several times. She is a very funny down to earth person, as is her neighbor Jill St John.  I miss those days.

    You have such excellent recall. Impressive. (none / 0) (#166)
    by oculus on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:19:24 PM EST
    Oculus, thanks for the compliment, (5.00 / 5) (#177)
    by fishcamp on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:54:02 PM EST
    but I only recall these events when someone mentions a name I know.  The rest of the many happenings are safely locked in some remote part of my aging brain.  But bring up a name or an event I know about, and boom we've got one of my stories.  I know that's why the boss lady asked me to start reading and commenting on her blog.  She knew I wasn't very politically aware, but also knew I had hundreds of stories to tell.  Film makers and fishermen are like that.  Of course all fishermen lie, but not all film makers.

    Oklahomans may (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 20, 2016 at 03:28:48 PM EST
    need to wear helmets at all times.  Maybe, its the fracking. They have a bathroom emergency and are ready with a bill to provide a religious accommodation for students who do not want to share a bathroom with a trans. Biblically wrong, you know..

     It is right there in the bible: 2 Corinthians walk into the desert:  if thou shalt ever get something other than this g*d damn hole in the sand, the God of Porcelain does not permit Adam, Eve or Steve relief of burdens without a birth certificate match-up.

    Flush from this Godly handiwork, these legislators propose the impeachment of the US President, the Attorney General, and the Secretary of Education. Aside from pleas of brain damage, their argument does not hold water.  Not worth the T.P. it is written on.  The case is tissue thin. But, the dump issue may help with their Trump emergency.

    "The Sun & The Moon & (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by fishcamp on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:31:19 PM EST
    The Rolling Stones" by Richi Cohen is an excellent new book. Just finished the chapter on Altamont, where one of the Hells Angels stabbed a guy to death.  The guy was in a lime green suit charging the stage with a gun allegedly trying to shoot Mick or Keith.  I was there filming for the Maysles brothers and saw the guy, but I had always thought he was beaten with a pool cue.  The entire concert was a big mistake with 300,000 people, half or more stoned on bad acid.  The Stones escaped by helicopter and I escaped, with a big camera, on the back of Sweet Williams Harley with my camera in hand.  He was the president of the S F Chapter, and basically saved my life.  The rest of the book is much calmer if that's possible with the Rolling Stones.  Damn good read.

    Bill Clinton will make a public (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by oculus on Sat May 21, 2016 at 12:49:54 AM EST
    appearance here tomorrow.

    Due to security concerns, attendees should not bring bags, and carry only small personal items, such as keys and cell phones. Weapons, sharp objects, chairs, signs, banners and sticks will not be permitted.
     [Emphasis added.]

    SITE VIOLATOR (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:08:19 AM EST
    iPhone romance novels?   I guess it had to happen.

    Dan (5.00 / 1) (#204)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 10:54:29 AM EST
    I've noticed
    I think the only thing Maddow likes more than unelectable democrats is electable republicans.

    My little sister, (5.00 / 2) (#206)
    by fishcamp on Sat May 21, 2016 at 12:13:52 PM EST
    who is some type of astrologist, just informed me that both Trump and Newt are Geminis.  This means they like to talk a lot and are very smart.  So we have that to think about, which I'm not doing.

    Happy Saturday to all my old TL peeps (5.00 / 2) (#207)
    by Dadler on Sat May 21, 2016 at 12:55:48 PM EST
    My son turned 16, got his driver's license, played his final H.S. band concert, got signed up for college calculus for the summer, then took apart and repaired our portable air conditioner AND installed the car stereo he bought for the old Honda he gets to drive. Kid's pretty impressive. Peace out. Go Dubs.

    "When urine complete agreement with your preferred candidate." (LINK)

    He's a troll. It's his job. (5.00 / 1) (#212)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 03:10:59 PM EST
    He haunts a blog called TalkLeft who's host regularly blogs and comments about entertainment and tv by whining about people discussing tv and linking to extreme right wing sites.

    It could be funny.  But eventually it stops being even that.

    ALL THE WAY heads up (5.00 / 2) (#214)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:08:58 PM EST
    With Brian Cranston as LBJ premiers on HBO tonight.   It just started.  Again at midnight.

    Dennis Hastert, the (none / 0) (#1)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 19, 2016 at 05:30:25 PM EST
    longest serving Republican Speaker of the House, (1999 to 2007) will begin his 15-month sentence, June 22, at a prison hospital in Rochester, MN. The sentence also includes two-years supervised release and a fine of $250,000, which he paid last week.

    The case involved bank structuring so as to provide hush money to a former student for sexual molestation while Hastert was coach of the high school wrestling team.  

    It's like Al Capone going down (none / 0) (#111)
    by Mr Natural on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:46:20 PM EST
    for tax evasion instead of murder and mayhem.  Or OJ convicted of those stupid little robberies.

    The Americans (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 19, 2016 at 06:48:44 PM EST
    Paige and Alice both need a nice long Siberian vacation.

    Only half way thru the episode so......

    A little behind times, (none / 0) (#3)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 19, 2016 at 06:51:39 PM EST
    just finished Breaking Bad. Great! Any suggestions on another series?  Call Saul? Wire?  ??? Thanks.

    Better Call Saul is fantastic (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by ruffian on Thu May 19, 2016 at 06:56:03 PM EST
    Not at all what you would expect. As good as Breaking Bad, but in a different way. Season 1 is on Netflix - I expect 2 will be there soon.

    Ruffian, (none / 0) (#10)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 19, 2016 at 08:13:29 PM EST
    appreciate the recommendation.  Have Netflix, and look forward to it.  Tried, the first of Making a Murderer tonight, exciting and maddening.

    If you really like to geek out (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by ruffian on Thu May 19, 2016 at 09:06:16 PM EST
    There is a Better Call Saul Insider podcast, with Vince Gilligan and the writers, actors, etc. One episode for every episode of the show. I love that stuff. It is hosted by Kelly Dixon who has the job I wish I would have in a second life - editor on Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul. They all sound like such great people to work with.

    Oh no, be prepared to be up all night! (none / 0) (#13)
    by ruffian on Thu May 19, 2016 at 08:51:48 PM EST
    I could not turn that off until it was done!

    My new desktop (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:31:56 AM EST
    Was finally just delivered.   I can now watch Netflix on the big screen again.  I'm very excited.

    This Saturday is the series finale (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 19, 2016 at 07:09:52 PM EST
    Of what I think is one of the very best things ever on the tube.


    On Cinemax.  This is the fourth season.  And the final.  I recommend it highly.   But difinitely from the beginning.  There's Orphan Black.  BBC.  The new season just started.  Also very good and also from the beginning.  Just been catching up on House of Cards.  I never got around to the last season.   I have high hopes for Preacher that starts this Sunday on AMC.


    Correction (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:29:33 PM EST
    If anyone cares

    The BANSHEE finale is TONIGHT at 9.

    Not tomorrow.


    Well (none / 0) (#173)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:56:53 PM EST
    That was pretty close to the most kick ass 60 minutes of TV I've ever seen.   A damn near flawless finale to a dam near flawless series.

    I been shilling for this for years and no one ever seems to care.

    But I'm tellin ya.  If you ever get hooked you will thank me.


    Reviews (like I said) (none / 0) (#193)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:58:56 AM EST
    I wish that this season could have lived up to the first
    three, and particularly to the extraordinary third. But finales are hard, and so are final seasons. At least the former worked out well. And we'll always have those great fight scenes and sex scenes and Job/Sugar banter scenes to remember from this odd, violent, frequently outstanding little gem.

    It's a remarkable thing that he did, and a similarly remarkable thing that a show as insane, thrilling, and well-made as Banshee made it to air. It followed in the footsteps of Strike Back to shatter the boundaries of what was technically possible on television, raised the bar for all action scenes going forward, and eked far more poignant a story out of pulp fiction and action film tropes than anyone expected from a Cinemax original series at the time. Whatever comes next in this genre will have a long and bloody shadow to stand in.

    Banshee has been quite the ride over the last four years. It's a show that probably wouldn't have existed this long even five years ago, and one that still deserved more attention than it received from the broader public. As I've said a few times this spring, final seasons are hard. Banshee didn't get it completely right with these eight episodes, but no show ever does. If anything, "Requiem" was a tremendous reminder of all the things the show did well for 38 episodes, a greatest hits of technical achievement, sharp characterizations, and strong acting. Banshee, the place, was one of the most bizarre, surreal, and coolest places to spend time in and I'll miss it, the show, and all of these characters.

    ZAP2it (on a possible Job spinoff--This would be SO cool)
    "Spinoffs are tough for a bunch of reasons, but if the right idea came, I'd certainly love to work with [actor Hoon Lee] again. I'm leery of the fact that -- sometimes really amazing supporting characters, when you make them the center of the show, sometimes it goes a little sideways. But if we had the right idea for a Job spinoff, certainly we would play with that


    On Netflix (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Suisser1 on Thu May 19, 2016 at 08:54:54 PM EST
    Salamander, Broadchurch, Bloodline, Rectify, Hinterland, Longmire and if you haven't even watched Firefly it's perfect summer TV. Oh and the Great British Baking Show is just charming if you need a break from all that crime.

    Rectify (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 19, 2016 at 09:12:20 PM EST
    Very good

    And The Wire for sure (none / 0) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 19, 2016 at 07:10:47 PM EST
    If you haven't.

    Captain, (none / 0) (#11)
    by KeysDan on Thu May 19, 2016 at 08:16:05 PM EST
    thanks a lot for the suggestions. House of Cards is great, glad there is another season. Hated to have Breaking Bad end.  Ruffian's recommendation of Saul makes me want to try that next.  And, then, Wire.

    I agree (none / 0) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 19, 2016 at 08:47:04 PM EST
    Saul is excellent.

    Dan (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 19, 2016 at 09:16:07 PM EST
    If you haven't seen the Americans that's is also excellent,  several seasons.  Soviet spys in the US in the Reagan years.   It's so great seeing Reagan and the Reagan years thru their eyes.   Everything about it is perfectly done.  Every detail.  I was recently watching it and it was "OMG I had those sheets in the 80s"

    Howdy I watched the Americans (none / 0) (#152)
    by fishcamp on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:59:54 PM EST
    last night, but couldn't get over the fact it was shot in video as opposed to film.  Can't stand that overexposed look.  Since I started in film I just love the dark background shadows and depth that video just doesn't have because it needs all that light to make it work.  Finally went back to the basketball game that immediately put me to sleep.

    I have noticed (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:12:18 PM EST
    It think this might be to make it look more like the 80s.  But I don't know that.

    I see this as a setup episode (none / 0) (#6)
    by ruffian on Thu May 19, 2016 at 07:01:03 PM EST
    Must confess I kept falling asleep! That's what I get for watching late at night.  Some scenes were great though, toward the beginning so you probably saw already - when Phil and Eliz are wondering if the Russians really did try to get the preacher.

    The betrayal of the Asian lady (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 19, 2016 at 09:11:24 PM EST
    Has been so well done.  The way they have crept up to it.  Intense.

    I still expect Tim and Alice might meet a bad end.


    Pelosi Defends Sanders (none / 0) (#4)
    by Mr Natural on Thu May 19, 2016 at 06:52:26 PM EST
    House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Thursday defended Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) from Democratic critics growing restless with his long-shot presidential campaign.

    Pelosi hailed Sanders for energizing young voters, arguing that his appeal will play to the advantage of all Democrats in November.

    "Bernie Sanders is a positive force in the Democratic Party," Pelosi said during a press briefing in the Capitol.

    "He has awakened in some people an interest in the political process that wasn't there. He has encouraged young people to channel their interest in public service and community leadership into a political place, because this is where decisions are made that'll affect their future and their lives. And I think that's positive."

    ... the Sanders camp promised to deliver a crushing blow to Hillary Clinton in California?

    "While Mr. Sanders says he does not want Mr. Trump to win in November, his advisers and allies say he is willing to do some harm to Mrs. Clinton in the shorter term if it means he can capture a majority of the 475 pledged delegates at stake in California and arrive at the Philadelphia convention with maximum political power.

    "Tad Devine, a senior adviser to Mr. Sanders, said the campaign did not think its attacks would help Mr. Trump in the long run, but added that the senator's team was 'not thinking about' the possibility that they could help derail Mrs. Clinton from becoming the first woman elected president." (Emphasis is mine.)

    It's talk such as this that's leading increasing numbers of Democrats to realize that there is no "us" in the increasingly Manichean worldview of the Bernie Sanders campaign. Either you're with him, or you're a pitiful tool of the establishment.

    And it's such a shame that something which started out as issue-oriented and well-intended, has since devolved precipitously into a painfully self-deluding vanity exercise by the candidate himself and his most faithful adherents. Sen. and Mrs. Sanders, Jeff Weaver, Tad Devine and the hardcore arrogantly presume to know better than everybody else in the Democratic Party, even though that dreadfully inconvenient 3 million-plus deficit in nationwide popular votes cast very clearly says otherwise.

    Look, we're going to win this thing in November, regardless of whether or not Bernie Sanders is on board. So, two words to the Bernie Bros: Wise up.



    To me (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by jbindc on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:41:24 AM EST
    This is what I think about all those commenters that left us but are "appalled" by the "hostile takeover" of the comments.  Many of us saw this endgame coming with Bernie Sanders all along, but we were shouted down. You can't have a candidate with followers who all demand absolute "purity", and then expect to draw converts to your side when all you do is call people who do not agree with you "establishment tools." There is no way to engage in rational discussion with people who do not want to engage. Unfortunately for those commenters, their go-to arguments and sources have fallen by the wayside one by one.  In fact, yet another oft-quoted Bernie supporter is back in the Clinton camp (at least for the good of the party and the country) - Robert Reich:  You need to "work like hell" for Hillary Clinton if Bernie doesn't win.

    This was but a microcism of the larger Bernieworld and his campaign is doing nothing to tamp down the religious fervor,  even in the face of defeat.  Shame on the Sanders campaign for not educating all these new and excited supporters on the process, registration deadlines, and for continuing to make them believe that there's still a chance and if Bernie doesn't win, it's because the process is rigged,  not because more people voted for someone else.  Shame on him for creating a while new group of people who will  now be cynical about the process.

    Shame, shame on you Bernie Sanders.


    I'm a bit less apocalyptic (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:55:31 AM EST
    First, we were not shouted down.  That's why they left.  To Js credit you don't just get to call people names here.  They had to make actual arguments and they were responded to with actual arguments.   There's the rub.

    Also lm not sure what's happening now might not end up being as good an ending as Hillary was going to get out of this.  As you said Sanders was never going to be the party uniter she was.  But his ham handed handling of the violence and threats are alienating a helluva lot of people.  In the end the only Bernie or Bust people is going to be the most bitter shortsighted snowflakes (I love that term) who mostly would never have voted for Hillary anyway.

    Cheer up.  It's not so bad really.


    I (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 20, 2016 at 03:12:32 PM EST
    always thought they left because their passionate arguments could not stand up to the logical arguments made by people who chose to understand political reality.

    I thought they took a break because (5.00 / 4) (#162)
    by oculus on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:02:23 PM EST
    the rest of us were not susceptible enough to being converted.

    That said (none / 0) (#35)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:07:00 AM EST
    Full disclosure,  I was arguing politics in my dreams last night.  I don't actually remember THAT ever happening before so.....

    It occurred to me today ... (none / 0) (#171)
    by FreakyBeaky on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:45:25 PM EST
    ... that we may look back thankful that Sanders was defeated in a primary campaign as a Democrat instead of a potentially far more damaging general election campaign as an Indy.

    But how about #1 (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Nemi on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:57:04 AM EST
    of Robert Reich's call to arms:

    1. Continue to work like hell for Bernie, especially given upcoming primaries in California and New Jersey on June 7. Putting aside superdelegates, the difference between him and Hillary Clinton isn't huge. So far, Bernie has won nearly 10 million votes and has 1,499 pledged delegates. Hillary Clinton has won 13 million votes and has 1,771 pledged delegates. California could make a huge difference.

    Still leading the more low-information voters on, it seems to me.


    I was not keeping up with TL (none / 0) (#86)
    by vml68 on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:38:40 PM EST
    earlier in the year, so have been wondering why there are no comments from Anne, Sj, Moblue, et al. Then I read Nyshooter's comment the other day and am now really curious.

    Honestly, I can't imagine Anne or Sj or any of the others leaving because there were opposing views here. They all struck me as more than able to hold their own in any argument and not the type to be easily cowed or bullied.

    So, what happened?


    No one (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:49:17 PM EST
    really knows. They just disappeared without a word.

    Didn't that same alliance leave (none / 0) (#104)
    by christinep on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:06:49 PM EST
    once before (only to return after a time?)  

    When a person/persons choose to leave when debates, discussions aren't moving their way--or so it seems--it could be for multiple reasons.  A guess: Coordinated, timed leave-takings are expected to be noticed.  Frustration? A snit-fit? Strong disagreement? An issue with not being in the more fully supported majority opinion? A time-out?  Who knows ... the only thing that is obvious, imo, is that the coordinated leave-taking reminds me of something long ago and the desire to be noticed.


    It got heated, but I thought (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:49:31 PM EST
    they were doing ok. From what I can tell, this is the last thread Anne posted in  Nothing there that tells me she was not coming back, or any reason to not come back. She can hold her own in any argument.

    The Clinton fan-dom... (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 01:29:11 PM EST
    is a bit overbearing at times for those who are less than keen on her candidacy.  

    I mean between elections we are in general agreement around here how the Democratic Party sucks arse and only looks good in comparison to Republicans...then an election comes along and people excuse the sh&t out of all the Democratic dirty all of a sudden.  That's about the gist of it as I've been in email contact with one of our self-imposed exiled friends.

    4 1/2 more months, 4 1/2 more months...


    And she's doing her part to try to make a difference. We get it that you don't like her, based on that cartoonish, two-dimensional persona of her that you have fixed in your head. But what are you doing to bring about the change you say that you want and we need?

    Maybe you ought to put forth a similar effort and get involved personally, rather than expecting everyone else to not only do it for you, but also make it easier for you to do the bare minimum and vote in our party's primary, without any corresponding personal commitment on your part.

    Because for all your erstwhile pretensions about liberalism, you've really yet to evolve beyond the first person singular. If you seek change, then you must embody that change personally and that requires commitment at the genuine risk of incurring personal inconvenience. Try actually walking the walk, rather than just talking the talk.



    Let's not herald the incredibly wealthy (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 03:20:13 PM EST
    and well connected politicos for "doing their part" or "personally inconveniencing" their lives, "risking" so much to get involved.  

    Not everyone has the background, the resources, the time, the imaginative bent, or the raw assets to get in there and mix it up in politics after graduating from a wonderful college.

    Something, too, about your comment suggests that you really do believe that our politics is a meritocracy.  Please correct me if I am wrong about that.  Because to see it as a meritocracy would be pretty obtuse.

    I don't understand all the preachiness.  You have only the slightest idea what any commenter on a blog --no matter how many exchanges you have had with them--contributes or gives or how they choose to live their lives.

    But more importantly, as citizens we are absolutely on solid ground to spend our lives on something other than electorla politics, while at the same time criticizing those in power as harshly as we want.  There is nothing hypocritical about it, or wrong with it, at all.  



    Quite (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:16:59 PM EST
    a pile of straw here
    Let's not herald the incredibly wealthy and well connected politicos
    I hear no trumpets blowing nor drums a pounding.

    Donald and K-dog are like the yin and the yang of this blog(politically speaking) Donald believes that political change is a long hard grind and he has the scars to show for it, K-dog believes that revolution is just around the corner and all it will take is the perfect White Horse candidate to seal the deal.


    I was responding to (none / 0) (#112)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:50:29 PM EST
    The idea that Clinton is "doing her part" and sacrificing and modeling what k-dog and others might do, is what I'm responding to here .

    Not the idea of the grind in the abstract . Although "the grind" is being over - romanticized as well.  It's usually a way to tell young people "get out of my yard."


    How (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 20, 2016 at 05:33:25 PM EST
    is she not "doing her part"? If that's what you are implying.

    You casually toss of the decades long hard work of change as some romanticized abstraction. Yeah, tell that to the ghosts of Medgar Evers and MLK and see what kind of response you get.

    You seem to be saying that you don't mind the idea of hard work in the abstract but think it's overrated. Bizarre philosophy if you ask me.

    You seem to be saying that telling young people to work hard and long to achieve their goals is somehow condescending to them.

    Sadly many of them probably do hear "stay off my lawn" while we are actually screaming "stay out of the minefield"


    She has had an incredible career (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 05:44:09 PM EST
    But she's also fortunate in the ways that I outlined in my original post . It's sort of like Gladwell's point in OUTLIERS, that yes , you've got to put in the work, but also let's not forget the galaxy of conditions extant that makes someone like Hillary Clinton able to "do her part."  

    I also acknowledge that Donald is right that we all could be doing more to make this world a better place and that yes , the grind is a real, innate value . But when you've messed things up as badly as things are messed up right now , the ones who "put in the work" leading up to this point -- and that includes Clinton very much, for all her virtues -- would do well to remember they aren't Jedi wisdom - givers .


    Here's the thing (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 05:50:35 PM EST
    I don't thinks she thinks is is a source of Jedi wisdom.  As an Arkansas resident who has followed her life and career since her husbands first of 5 terms as AR governor.

    I think Bernie believes he is.  And he also is not.  The difference IMO is one understands this and one does not.  Bernie has started drinking his own koolaid.  


    They're all just politicians (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 05:59:45 PM EST
    All I'm concerned with as far as Sanders goes , as with all of them, is the message he is spreading .And that message was a long time coming . It's not "his message": hell, there was a time when fighting for labor and against the wealthy owning our politics was mainstream politics .

    What happened ? A lot of people have "put in the work" but I hope sometime it will be more than just a handful of high profile pols willing to buck the paradigm and embrace those ideas again .


    Here's (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:17:25 PM EST
    the problem. Too many people believing in the white knight theory of politics. If we just elect someone who is pure and holy the world will be perfect. Electing a president is not going to do it. Because even though they might win a presidential election it doesn't mean that they are going to be successful and if they fail well, it just makes things a lot worse. What has to be done is convincing people that those ideas are better precinct by precinct. Bernie actually has done a very poor job of convincing people of that. See NYDN interview for a perfect example.

    As I recall (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:25:41 PM EST
    His stump speech (which I think we can both agree is pretty static and rote everywhere he goes ) usually points out that no President can fix the problems I am talking about . I think he agrees with you about the precinct to precinct battle that is needed .

    But shouldn't we at least want our President to believe that "those ideas are better" , and to try to use their megaphone and their influence to persuade those precincts ? If we keep electing people who don't seem invested in the problems then it is almost as though we are saying the problems don't exist. And if they don't exist , then why would we get change from the bottom up?


    If all else was equal yes, I agree (5.00 / 2) (#134)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:32:22 PM EST
    I would prefer a president with Bernie's message on some issues (not on guns). But there is more to the job than being a walking megaphone.  Being president takes a wider range of skills than Bernie has demonstrated to me.

    I agree with that (none / 0) (#136)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:35:46 PM EST
    So I guess the real thing I'm bitter about is how thin our roster seems to be . We made fun of the GOP clown car , and rightly so.

    But surely to God we've got some people in this country capable of articulating that things are broken , and trying to fix those things in whatever way they can, while at the same time having the skill set for governance .


    Yes, I totally agree (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:56:47 PM EST
    I hope a deeper bench is developed in the next 4-8 years, no matter how this race turns out. I wish Obama had picked a younger, more viable VP.  I think that decision is what allowed Clinton to be a front runner.

    Opps...hit the post button... (5.00 / 2) (#135)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:35:23 PM EST
    And I don't follow the logical leap that because the president does not talk about something int he exact way Bernie is, she is pretending the problem does not exist. Or that people at the bottom would not work for change regardless of what the people at the top are saying. I don't know what is more defeatist than that kind of attitude.

    Hey now (none / 0) (#137)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:38:07 PM EST
    I admit that I'm feeling pretty defeated .

    But Clinton does seem to me to pretty strongly disagree with the idea that we have a broken system.


    Sorry, didn't mean to be short (none / 0) (#143)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:06:36 PM EST
    I think we mostly agree...I think Hillary sees things that are broken, but not her style to see it as a whole broken system.   She tends to get into details a little more than that - keep what is working, fix what is broken. It does not make for soaring rhetoric for a frustrated electorate.

    She's not a perfect person or candidate, but I think she'll win and I will have lots of problems with what she does as POTUS - as I have had with Bill Clinton before her, and Obama.


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:19:45 PM EST
    I see sort of something like a great depression as being something that is done from the bottom precinct by precinct. Bernie may believe in that in theory but has not shown he actually believes that by what he has done. He had a few candidates he endorsed that were begging for his help and so he sent out an email to his supporters. I just find that pretty weak support for your message because you're not putting your money where your mouth is so to speak.

    Howdy, since we have only recently (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:14:04 PM EST
    Interacted , I want to clarify that there are many things that I admire about both Clintons and even as early as the late 80s, I liked Hillary even better than Bill. I know well how many good things she has done to help people in Arkansas, in Texas, as First Lady and Senator and everything else .

    I'm by no means Bernie or Bust. I am however pretty pissed off at what I do see as a rigged economy and I believe we have squandered the New Deal and need a New New Deal. And I ain't too happy that our party , including Clinton, remains commiserate with the neocon ideas . Enough with the unending war and the drones .

    So these are real concerns among some others that I have, just as I am sure you have. And the GOP scares the hell out of me . So fwiw I'm #withher, but that doesn't mean I can't be pissed off at her and critical of her and appreciative of Sanders for what he's contributed , and sympathetic to those who are supporting him more strongly than I am .


    Fair enough (5.00 / 4) (#133)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:32:16 PM EST
    I'm not completely on board with the foreign entanglements.   But neither was Obama until he got briefed.  I'm just sayin there is a lot we don't and will never know.  At some point you have to trust a person or not.

    Here's the truth.  I trust Hillary.  I do.  I believe she shares as many of my values as any politician who has ever run for the presidency with a chance of winning.  And as I said that is not recently earned.  It comes from decades of watching what she has stood for and fought for.

    I am not a fan boy.  I am a realist.  The key words above being "with a chance of winning".   I am very aware that Bernie very likely is closer to my own views in some important ways.  I do not and have never believed he can win a general election.  I have said many times he has made a great contribution to the political dialog.  He has been an important force.

    It's over.  IMO he is no longer helping.  He is no longer adding.  He is subtracting.  It's not that I do not understand or appreciate "those who feel more strongly".  It's that I just as strongly disagree with them that at this point there is anything to be gained.


    Whatever (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:00:13 PM EST
    maybe she did get lucky, any politician needs a bit of luck to get to the top but hard work is imperative(except maybe for W).

    Here let me fix this for you "when we've messed things up". I know you are dying to blame Hillary for all the woes of the world but please stop. It is totally BS talking point to blame Hillary for Republican obstructive and destructive behaviour. It's total BS talking point to blame Hillary for Americans buying into the snake-oil trickle down economics that the GOP sold for decades.

    The American electorate and many if not most our institutions all share culpability for the mess we are in. It's shows your CDS when you constantly try to throw the weight of the world upon Hillary, it's one of the classic symptoms.



    Agreed (none / 0) (#196)
    by glanton on Sat May 21, 2016 at 09:12:18 AM EST
    with this: "The American electorate and many if not most our institutions all share culpability for the mess we are in."

    I'm not putting the weight of the whole electorate on Clinton or any other person.  What I do critique is her apparent sense that we are not in a mess, at all.  Just as Trump's "Make America Great Again" is dangerous jingoism, so too is her "American is Alrady Great" retort.  


    You (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by FlJoe on Sat May 21, 2016 at 11:03:47 AM EST
    put way too much stock in campaign rhetoric.

    Trump made "make America great again" is indeed the main tag line of Trump's campaign, Hillary's "America is already great" is a reasonable political riposte(or is political optimism forever banned as a campaign strategy?), but in no way is it a main talking point of her campaign.

    I hear both Trump and Sanders saying America sucks, with Trump insisting that America's greatness was stolen by the "others" and Bernie's insistence that America was never great in the first place because they didn't follow a more socialist path many, many moons ago.

    I hear Hillary saying, that while she may think America is "great" she absolutely understands that that "greatness" is not spread equitably. Her "breaking down barriers" tagline of her campaign and her stump speeches constantly pound away at that theme.

    If you want to call that jingoism, fine. I hope you find a "political revolution" that fits your mold of political straight talking.



    Well (none / 0) (#197)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat May 21, 2016 at 10:01:01 AM EST
    like Hillary says it's easy to point out problems but hard work to get to solutions. Gloom and doom generally just doesn't sell with the electorate. Hillary however does talk about those that have been "left behind" like the people in Appalachia.

    Not so sure (none / 0) (#200)
    by glanton on Sat May 21, 2016 at 10:26:19 AM EST
    It's "doom and gloom" to say that we have a broken economy and political system.  If you believe it is true, then it is better to come out and say it.

    And really, Trump & Sanders have both proven that tjhe electorate is open to hearing that things are bad, though the two of them of course identify very different culprits and propose very different solutions.

    I just don't think this election year, that the argument--in my opinion the false argument-- "we are going great but there are some who have been left behind so let's do better" is as compelling to the electorate as you, and apparently Hillary Clinton, seem to think.  I guess we will see.


    Doom and gloom (none / 0) (#202)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 10:34:29 AM EST
    Always has an audience

    Get out of my yard.. (none / 0) (#113)
    by jondee on Fri May 20, 2016 at 05:07:17 PM EST
    because all your energy and hope makes us backward-traveling "incrementalists" nervous and crotchety while we're trying to rest in our shady corner of the pasture.

    I wish I were one of the "young" (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 05:23:53 PM EST
    In truth , like Donald I have tried to "do my part." I've lost a lot more than I've won , but there's no shame nor pride in that .

    One thing I will say is whatever our scars, this isn't like the movie JAWS, where they're points of pride . People my age and older didn't leave much for the generations after us. And yet we want to scold them about how much work we've put in .

    Seems wrong .


    I've been in the game for nearly 30 years, and have my own share of triumphs and less-than-stellar moments. What I and others like me don't appreciate is being labeled a "shill" and a "tool" by people who quite obviously have done nothing themselves in the political realm but pound away on a laptop keyboard.

    If you really truly believe in something politically, then you have to take a personal risk and actually put some skin in the game. If you don't have time, then you make time. Positive and pro-active change doesn't happen in your life without your own personal good-faith effort. And if you're waiting for somebody else to make that effort on your behalf, well, good luck with all that.

    Look, I've always felt that deep down, Bernie Sanders is one of the good guys. I believe his first mistake was getting into the race without feeling that he had a real chance of winning. Now, since he's proved to be competitive, I think he got caught up in the moment, and is in the grip of his own blind combativeness.

    At this point in time, the nomination is decided and it won't be him. He should instead be consolidating his gains in the Democratic Party, and using it to re-position himself within the Democratic congressional hierarchy. If we take back the majority in the U.S. Senate, by all rights he should be able to ask for and receive a significant committee chairmanship.

    With about 43% of the nationwide Democratic primary vote behind him, Sanders has got to realize that he has one helluva lot of political leverage right now. Yet his campaign is wasting it by the bushel basket with these gratuitous and nasty potshots at the woman who will be our party's nominee.

    Not only is Sanders' present overplaying of his hand strategically nonsensical, it's clearly alarming a lot of Democrats, including a number of his erstwhile supporters such as Charles Pierce and Harold Meyerson. He keeps it up, and he could end up with nothing to show for his efforts this year but a likely primary challenge to his own Senate seat in 2018.



    Nothing condescending about THAT. (none / 0) (#124)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:12:38 PM EST
    I'm not nervous - go ahead, bring it on. I have always said I would believe it when I saw it. I have not seen it yet.

    glanton: I'd say that (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by christinep on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:19:19 PM EST
    your final two paragraphs <about whether one can make strong comments about another's strong comments> reaches its own special level of preaching.

    Fair enough (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:05:25 PM EST
    I'm not as eloquent or measured as I wish I was . Thanks for pointing out that my tone sort of sucks here .

    To self-important presumptions (3.50 / 2) (#138)
    by jondee on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:39:23 PM EST
    are at work in that post: first, that you have some sort definitive knowledge of the societal value of all the "work" that kdog has done in his life, and secondly, that you assume you have the authority to browbeat into silence and aquiescense,  from your lofty, guano-encrusted perch, the right of a fellow citizen to an opinion contrary to your own. And all because their resume doesn't read exactly the way your's does.

    And what finally does the sum of
    all that presumption amount to but a variation on the age-old conceit of self-absorbed petty tyrants everywhere, who claim to know more about our interests and life experience than we do ourselves.


    TL (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by glanton on Fri May 20, 2016 at 03:07:54 PM EST
    Really changed the most, in terms of acrimony between commenters, during the Clinton/ Obama primaries.  I think it had less to do with the vaunted "battle" between those two poiticians than it did with the fact that W was such a "unifier" for liberal-minded folks.  

    Acrimony developed between commenters, and a very large new wave of commenters appeared, during the Clinton/ Obama primaries.  I loved all the new traffic but things got pretty bad and since I didn't really believe there was significant difference between the two (I saw both as pretty centrist), I kind of gradually drifted away from the comment boards.

    I suspect that like me, many of these commenters that people are talking about have drifted away from writing but are still reading the posts and, at times, the comments too.


    kdog: I didn't realize that (none / 0) (#105)
    by christinep on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:13:44 PM EST
    (usually) "we are in general agreement around here how the Democratic Party sucks arse."  I'm clearly NOT of that opinion ... I'm not pollyana by any means; but, I prefer to work in support of rather than a knee-jerk, cynical response against my political party.  I do understand, tho, that some others here align with your position or similar.

    Look at like this (none / 0) (#198)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 21, 2016 at 10:12:57 AM EST
    At least we have plenty of space to discuss TV shows instead of those nasty political and cultural differences.



    Here's an idea (none / 0) (#203)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 10:35:29 AM EST
    If you don't like talking about TV shows.


    If fact you could stop talking altogether and I promise you will not be missed.

    No one will post wistful comments like "what ever happened to that troll, what was his name?  PBJ?"


    Vml68, I believe they left (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by fishcamp on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:15:13 PM EST
    Due to the senseless bickering and bad ideas from several commenters.  Hopefully they'll be back soon as I truly miss them, especially Zorba my tzatziki teacher.

    I hope they come back too. (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by vml68 on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:03:43 PM EST
    I enjoyed reading their comments and almost always agreed with them.  I would not have agreed with them for this primary though!
    I did not feel the Bern :-)

    I am hoping Scott comes back, too.


    They were people who had come to regard (none / 0) (#188)
    by Mr Natural on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:09:28 AM EST
    this blog as a home.  Most of the people here they considered their friends.  They were vulnerable and they were blindsided.

    Nice try Nancy, but it won't be enough (none / 0) (#24)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:05:21 AM EST
    to prevent you from getting boo'ed off the stage if you dare try to speak to the the most fanatical Bernie Bros.

    Or a state Dem. convention after HRC won (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by oculus on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:19:40 PM EST
    the primary or cauci.

    Could it be (none / 0) (#26)
    by Nemi on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:44:25 AM EST
    that Nancy Pelosi somehow overlooks, that Bernie Sanders is not so much running against his Democratic opponent as he is running against the Democratic Party?

    Something Eugene Robinson at RCP points out, and repeats:

    Bernie Sanders is playing a dangerous game. If he and his campaign continue their scorched-earth attacks against the Democratic Party, they will succeed only in one thing: electing Donald Trump as president.

    Sanders and his aides have claimed that the party establishment was unfairly tipping the scales in favor of Clinton. Now the Sanders people have gone further and are deliberately stoking anger and a sense of grievance -- less against Clinton than the party itself.

    Rather than accept defeat, they claim loudly that the party's nominating process was rigged against them. They display a degree of entitlement that they have not earned.

    He and his campaign must stop attacking the Democratic Party in a way that might discourage voters in the fall.

    I don't know if there's anything to it, but I remember talk back in 2008 about how Nancy Pelosi in her favoring Obama over Hillary, seemed to see herself as the Queen Bee who didn't welcome a rival for that position? Well, whether true or not I still admire her for her accomplishments and was close to ecstatic when she became the first, and so far only, female speaker of the House. So there's that ... too. :)


    Good points, and good reminder (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:28:39 AM EST
    Nancy Pelosi, like all long term successful politicians, has her own goals and strategies. Some I agree with and some I do not - I did not agree with her in 2008, that I do remember. I think she and al the Dem leaders are trying to paper over the strong differences Sanders has with the party itself in an effort not to alienate his supporters - or at least alienate as few of them as humanly possible. I think in their private conversations and thoughts they must see what is really going on.

    Inside the Horror Show that is Congress (none / 0) (#21)
    by Mr Natural on Fri May 20, 2016 at 05:01:19 AM EST
    - Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone, 2005

    Like a lot of people who have worked on the Hill a little too long, the aide had a strange look in his eyes - the desperate look of a man who's been marooned on a remote island, subsisting on bugs and abalone for years on end. You worry that he might grab your lapel in frustatration at any moment. "It's unbelievable," he said. "Worse than you can possibly imagine. The things that go on..."

    The thing is (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:00:25 AM EST
    I can imagine.  And I don't even know anyone with lapels to grab.

    Colorado's pot law (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:54:26 AM EST
    Is having some unintended consequences (that should have bern foreseen).

    The Marijuana Industry's War on the Poor

    In working-class neighborhoods like Elyria-Swansea, Globeville and Northeast Park Hill there's a growing sense among residents that they have been overrun by a new drug trade, legal but noxious all the same. These communities once offered plentiful jobs in the city's smelters, meatpacking houses, brickyards and stockyards, but those industries are mostly gone now, along with Denver's cow town image. In the past few years, the city's newest growth industry has moved in--and not in a subtle way. In Elyria-Swansea alone, more than three dozen businesses are licensed to grow and sell marijuana and another dozen companies manufacture edible pot products. To the people living in the modest homes near the grow operations that supply the dispensaries and shops in better-off parts of town, the smell is not only an inconvenience but a reminder of their lack of political clout.

    "One of the things that we thought was going to happen when [recreational] marijuana was legalized was that drugs would be taken out of our community," said Candi CdeBaca, an education and community activist whose longtime family home is steps from a commercial grow operation in Elyria-Swansea. "What happened was that the drugs stayed--and the drug dealers changed."

    Two years after legal sales of recreational marijuana began in Colorado, the biggest fears that once preoccupied Denver city officials--higher crime, more drug use among teens and a drag on tourism--have not come to pass. Instead, the expanded industry, with 21-and-over recreational sales joining a longer-sanctioned medical marijuana trade, has pumped millions of dollars into government coffers. It's swathed the city in a trendy glow that likely attracts as many outsiders as it repels. But in lower-income neighborhoods of Denver, the explosion of smelly commercial cultivation operations, which crank out tons of high-priced weed for sometimes-chic, sometimes-earthy dispensaries in more fashionable parts of town, has rekindled long-standing grievances about being ignored by City Hall. And residents are beginning to demand big changes.


    Mayor Michael Hancock views the neighborhood outcry as unsurprising. City rules required grow operations--which favor warehouse-like structures--to locate in industrial-zoned areas. "Certainly, nobody wants to live under the clouds of those odors everyday," Hancock said, adding that it's incumbent on the marijuana industry to work with communities to reduce the negative effects of their operations.

    In recent weeks, Hancock signed off on an ordinance change that will require businesses seeking new licenses or renewals to submit "good neighbor" outreach plans. And next year, grow operations, which take widely varying approaches to reduce the smells they emit, will have to present odor-control plans to the city.

    Some City Council members had pressed for more severe restrictions on the industry's size. As it stands, the number of grow operations will be ratcheted back slightly in coming years as some go out of business. And future grow operations can't open within 1,000 feet of a residential zone--a rule, it's worth noting, that would have prevented the opening of roughly 60 percent of existing grow operations had it been in place from the start.

    But among neighborhood activists, the new ordinances are greeted with skepticism or outright dismissal, in part because the new industry caps allow in the near term for the opening of more than three dozen new stores and grows that already were awaiting license decisions, including a couple in Elyria-Swansea.

    "They screwed it up when they rolled out the recreational marijuana rules and now they're trying to correct it," said Drew Dutcher, an architect and activist who lives two blocks from the Starbuds pot shop. "It's too little, too late."

    Oh (none / 0) (#36)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:15:43 AM EST
    the horror, trading in the sweet smells of slaughter houses and smelters for the toxic odors of flowering buds.

    This is one stupid statement here

    One of the things that we thought was going to happen when [recreational] marijuana was legalized was that drugs would be taken out of our community
    I mean who could  not forsee this  
    "What happened was that the drugs stayed--and the drug dealers changed."

    Thank you (none / 0) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:17:29 AM EST
    Yeah - the illegal dealers with the associated (none / 0) (#39)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:24:38 AM EST
    activity, violence, etc, have been replaced by regular, legal operations that might give people in the neighborhood decent legitimate jobs. Horrible!

    I think it smells disgusting (none / 0) (#40)
    by jbindc on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:25:14 AM EST
    I would be royally pi$$ed if grow operations were built near my house, especially if I lived in a neighborhood where people couldn't afford to move away.

    If you read the article, it seems like Denver really screwed up with how they implemented this, and now it's tough trying to put the genie back in the bottle.  Seems like Seattle had a MUCH better implementation plan.  Denver coukd serve as a model for other cities of what NOT to do.


    And actually (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:30:16 AM EST
    I find it funny that self-identified liberals have the attitude of "STFU" when poor peoole are complaining about something liberals like.  And there's no indication of "all those jobs" being provided to people in this neighborhood.

    Please note - no one in the article is advocating for pot to be made illegal again, but instead, no one bothered to think through the bigger picture because all they could see is "We can legally get high!"


    Pretty (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by FlJoe on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:46:26 AM EST
    much any industry has some kind of negative effect on the neighborhoods they reside in, even if it is only increased traffic. Historically the messiest ones end up in the poorer neighborhoods, this has been true since the dawn of civilization.

    I am not saying it's right, or that the concerns of the poor who are "forced" to live in industrial
    areas should not be addressed, but in the great scheme of things this is rather small potatoes. It would be an excellent world if the odor of growing pot was one of the biggest problems these citizens face.


    For sure... (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:12:17 AM EST
    ask the poor people in the S. Bronx who live next to bus depot, or the people in my old neighborhood who live next to the wastewater treatment plant, if they'd like to live next to a marijuana grow-op instead.  I think the answer is "in a heartbeat!".

    Usually the issue is which was there first-- the (none / 0) (#87)
    by oculus on Fri May 20, 2016 at 12:43:04 PM EST
    residents or the industry the residents would like declared a nuisance. For example, my neighborhood was constructed after the nearby military airfield.

    You're talking about zoning problems... (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:02:54 AM EST
    not marijuana problems.  Yet it seems to me you framed it as a marijuana problem.

    "We can legally get high!" is an awesome consequence...but I think the primary motivation was much more along the lines of "We can stop locking up our neighbors!", "We can stop wasting taxpayer dollars and start raising pot tax dollars!", and "Lets stop being stupid and start getting smart!".

    I'm sure repealing prohibition had some kinks that had to be worked out too...no big deal.


    I didn't take that part into account (none / 0) (#48)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:39:14 AM EST
    Smells would make it really unpleasant and it should have been taken into account. I was more talking about the 'dealers' aspect than the manufacturing.

    I live about 1 mile away from a landfill from which they have had problems recently controlling gases - I know how awful permeating smells can be.


    For the record, I don't use pot myself (none / 0) (#49)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:42:13 AM EST
    but I do support legalization. So I don't know if the makes me a pot 'liker'. I do wish the regulations in Denver had been up to snuff - so to speak. I hope they can do something about the smells - filters, etc.

    Nonsense, JB (none / 0) (#58)
    by Mr Natural on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:46:53 AM EST
    What they could see is that a bunch of otherwise unemployable, pugil stick swinging, assault rifle firing, neo-fascist black-uniformed SWAT-State thugs weren't going to bust into their homes and beat them to the floor using a couple of pot plants or a dime bag as a legal excuse.

    That's the Big Picture.


    They're still doing that... (none / 0) (#73)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri May 20, 2016 at 11:37:11 AM EST
    if they think there are more plants than allowed - "illegal grow operations" is the term.  And guess where those pop-up - affluent suburban/rural neighborhoods with vacant houses.  The smell is usually what leads to them being busted.  

    That and the molten electric meters (none / 0) (#109)
    by Mr Natural on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:39:09 PM EST
    They have many ways of (none / 0) (#122)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:06:34 PM EST
    Knowing where it's growing.  My (one of my) nephew is the "tip of the spear" for marijuana enforcement with the state police.  How convenient us that?

    I hear things.

    Among other things I regularly hear his minions circling in choppers.


    The laws allowing them to take money (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:14:25 PM EST
    And property means they have VERY sophisticated technology.  Even in a poor state like AR.

    Law enforcers cement officers in helicopters (none / 0) (#163)
    by oculus on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:11:05 PM EST
    look for a very recognizable shade of green and use heat sensors.

    Oh yeah, jb in dc, those grow ops (none / 0) (#45)
    by Mr Natural on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:34:27 AM EST
    smell a lot worse than the lost "smelters, meatpacking houses, brickyards and stockyards."

    "Odor Control"... (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by kdog on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:41:50 AM EST
    feel free to package that odor and send it my way Colorado, I'll use it as an air freshener!

    Pitkin County Colorado (none / 0) (#159)
    by fishcamp on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:52:41 PM EST
    where Aspen is the county seat is having odor problems emanating from the many large down valley legal grow locations.  The county recently hired a sniffer person.  He has forced basically all of them to instal better filter systems.  They did and the problem seems to be gone.  Aspen has five retail outlets for a town of 6,500 people.  But the tourists are thrilled that they can buy a half ounce per day.  Naturally it's more expensive than anywhere else in the state, as are the ski lift tickets.  But that's Aspen's way with all good things.

    How will the ready availability of mj (none / 0) (#164)
    by oculus on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:14:44 PM EST
    affect the skiers, who now wear helmets?

    Ha, good question oculus. (none / 0) (#172)
    by fishcamp on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:48:28 PM EST
    They groom the mountains so exquisitely and far too close to the trees that many managed to smash into, which is one of the reasons for the ski skid lids.  Maybe the mj will slow the folks down some.  I didn't wear a helmet nor smoke pot while skiing, so I'm not sure.  However sometimes in the 13 minute gondola ride to the top the second hand smoke did get to me.  I was always able to snap out of it since fast sports activities seemed to diminish the effect with me.  The only trees I hit were in downhill races and I was glad to have a helmet then.  European trees seem to be more dense than the U S trees.  I managed to skitter through them most times when blowing off the course.  European hospitals, in the ski areas, are quite medieval so I tried to avoid them.

    This is an air pollution control problem (none / 0) (#174)
    by FreakyBeaky on Fri May 20, 2016 at 10:13:08 PM EST
    and an environmental justice issue, largely. It shouldn't be a difficult air pollution problem.

    In agricultural zoned areas where I live (none / 0) (#184)
    by Mr Natural on Sat May 21, 2016 at 06:34:42 AM EST
    farmers are protected from harassment about smells crossing property lines, which smells, being airborne, are wont to do.  Before that protection was enacted by the legislature, farmers were continually dragged into court by ex-urbanites who bought property near farms, imagining bucolic bliss.  With the bliss came the odor of natural fertilizer produced by cattle and pigs.

    There are farms (none / 0) (#189)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:10:53 AM EST
    That sometimes smell a little and there are thise horrible meat factories that blasts an absolutely overpowering stench for miles around.  The kind that if you drive by one with your windos down it takes days to get the smell out of your car.  

    I'll (none / 0) (#190)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:25:49 AM EST
    never figure out that mindset. I guess most of these people have never lived in a rural area and realize how much it can smell. I live in an exurban area with a lot of chicken farms. My neighbors whine and whine about the smell but I'm like well, when you move next to a chicken farm you're gonna get smells. I would have never thought about suing the farm next door for the smells.

    One more step (none / 0) (#108)
    by ragebot on Fri May 20, 2016 at 04:25:29 PM EST
    in the extradition of el Chapo.

    Watching a fairly remarkable discussion (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:02:43 PM EST
    On MSNBC with Peter Wehner and Alex Castellanos on Trump.  Wehner is a pretty articulate never Trump republican.   I agree with everything he says.   Castellanos is the perfect example of the wider Republican Party.  If you watched CNN at all during this primary cycle you saw him scorn and ridicule Trump in the most viscous ways.  He is now completely and shamelessly aboard the Trump train.

    He's the republican nominee.  Yes I said he was stupid, unqualified, dangerous and vile.  But he's the nominee.  

    It's very interesting to hear the back and forth between these two guys.

    Castellanos is an idiot and a tool.  I knew that.  Didn't know much about Wehner.  But I like him.

    I will link when it's up.

    They explained (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:57:58 PM EST
    this behavior in our local politics section of the AJC. It's called an appearance of unity because apparently appearing not united is worse than endorsing or approving of Donald. Now there are different degrees of this where some are having to be dragged kicking and screaming to do it because their statements come off as "they made me do it" and of course some of them are enthusiastically getting behind Donald. The wackier they are the more enthusiastic they are for him. No word on what Deal is going to do yet but I guess he'll make some nonsense statement about Trump like he supports him but doesn't endorse him. One of the GOP legislators in the state blamed Nathan Deal for Trump. Apparently according to him vetoing campus carry made Trump the nominee. You can't make this stuff up.

    The other interesting number (none / 0) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:12:30 PM EST
    Of the day.  Remember when "Trump would never even get to 50% of the Republican Party"?

    It's now 80%. Only 17% not yet on board.  And shrinking.  


    No surprises, confirms (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by KeysDan on Fri May 20, 2016 at 06:25:24 PM EST
    the old saw, Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line.   And, why shouldn't they, Trump is oafish, but no different from any of them. Or, at least, malleable where differences may exist. Wall?, what wall.  Round ups? rhetoric. Self-financing? Yes, not counting Super Pacs and donations, and loans. He doesn't lie, since Republicans always have convenient amnesia.  

    I happened to catch that too (none / 0) (#145)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:12:26 PM EST
    Did they even line up behind Romney this well? I seem to remember even that being slower.

    I predict those holdouts will secretly vote for Trump while protesting their opposition.


    They (none / 0) (#148)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:22:37 PM EST
    actually lined up with Romney a lot better. He immediately got the endorsement of everybody and nobody said "I support him but don't endorse him" that I recall.

    Ok, my memory is faulty on that (none / 0) (#150)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:33:15 PM EST
    Did not follow it very closely. Not promising I will flow it this time either...had to change the channel after a couple of minutes of the show Howdy referenced...only so much I can stomach.

    I am SO there (none / 0) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 07:01:32 PM EST
    A Hero Will Rise

    Sausage Party, the first R-rated CG animated movie, is about one sausage leading a group of supermarket products on a quest to discover the truth about their existence and what really happens when they become chosen to leave the grocery store. The film features the vocal talents of a who's who of today's comedy stars - Seth Rogen, Kristen Wiig, Jonah Hill, Bill Hader, Michael Cera, James Franco, Danny McBride, Craig Robinson, Paul Rudd, Nick Kroll, David Krumholtz, Edward Norton, and Salma Hayek.

    Game if Thrones "All Timer" on Sunday ? (none / 0) (#155)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:21:33 PM EST

    Better sprinkle yourself with Hodor hype dust and let it carry you across the next few days 'cause "Game of Thrones" Season 6, Episode 5 has been teased as an "all-timer." Let's go break down "The Door"!

    We see Meera shaking Bran, trying to get him to come out of his vision. The Three-Eyed Raven warned him about staying away too long. There's a theory about (EVERYTHING) Hodor, that young Wylis became Hodor because he too can warg and went too far/something happened. There's thought that maybe he chose to warg into a horse (maybe to be closer to Lyanna Stark) and the horse was killed when Hodor was inside which could explain his damaged mind. Will we see more of Hodor's past this week, since the photo at top shows Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven returning to Winterfell? Or is that not part of what makes this an "all timer"?

    Not fair to make me waste away my weekend (none / 0) (#156)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:34:27 PM EST
    waiting impatiently for 9 pm Sunday night!

    I want to know what 'Hodor' means...I always assumed it was his name, but now we know thats' not it.


    Oh well (none / 0) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 08:54:03 PM EST
    It's done now

    things to know about Kinvara ahead of episode 5:

    Kinvara Is Referred To As "The First Servant Of The Lord Of Light."

    Although her introduction to "Game of Thrones" comes several seasons after Melisandre's, a leaked script snippet featured on Screen Crush shows her being introduced as the Lord of Light's first follower.

    She And Tyrian May Form An Alliance.

    Kinvara And Melisandre Differ On Who Azor Ahai May Be.
    The Azor Ahai prophecy is an important one to the red priestesses. The prophecy suggests that whoever has taken on the spirit of the great warrior will be reborn in smoke and fire, carrying a flaming sword. Upon her initial introduction, Melisandre believed that Stannis Baratheon (Stephen Dillane) -- may he rest in peace -- was the reincarnation of the warrior of fire. Other theories speculate that it may be Jon Snow (Kit Harington) or Victarion Greyjoy. As is revealed in the scripts, Kinvara believes the chosen one is none other than the mother of dragons.

    Ha (none / 0) (#165)
    by CoralGables on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:16:49 PM EST
    "things to know about Kinvara"

    Thought you were about to do a shoe review on the Saucony Kinvara.


    That was a Google (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:31:53 PM EST
    Hmmmm...ok, as long as Tyrion is involved I will (none / 0) (#167)
    by ruffian on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:25:23 PM EST
    stay interested. Otherwise another religious nut is the last thing  I care about on that show.

    She must be way older that the other red woman (none / 0) (#168)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri May 20, 2016 at 09:30:38 PM EST
    She has the same necklace

    Back in Vietnam (none / 0) (#185)
    by Mr Natural on Sat May 21, 2016 at 06:45:05 AM EST
    Comments on Obama's Vietnam outreach from Jeff Bezos, John McCain, Forbes, Human Rights Watch, Duyen Bui, Bloomberg, Sandy Pho, and Foreign Affairs.

    According to a 2015 Pew survey, less than 20 percent of Vietnamese have a positive view of China, while 76 percent think favorably of the United States.

    Gary Johnson (none / 0) (#191)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:28:46 AM EST
    gets 10% in another poll

    Which probably almost literally represents almost every single person who even knows who he is.

    And former governor William Weld is probably going to be his VP.

    I'm tellin ya.  This could go places.

    Johnson/Weld (5.00 / 2) (#201)
    by KeysDan on Sat May 21, 2016 at 10:33:33 AM EST
    is  Rachael Maddow's new baby, ever since baby Bernie grew up and flew away.   Even had that deep thinker, Chuck Todd,  on her show to give his analysis, such as this could affect the election, or not.  

    NYTimes (none / 0) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 07:33:09 AM EST
    I not only looked at it (none / 0) (#208)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 21, 2016 at 01:49:06 PM EST
    my dear Howdy. I lived through it.

    I remember when we discussed things like war, peace, civil rights, etc., etc.

    If anyone cared about anything on TV they kept it to themselves.

    People came and people went. But there always new ones to add to the mix.

    Now, not so much.

    You are seeing what happens when one group manages to dominate the discussion by attacks on the other.

    To bring it to your level.

    We've went from NPR/CNN/FNC/MSNBC to TLC.

    (@ #199) Heh, you're right (none / 0) (#209)
    by Nemi on Sat May 21, 2016 at 02:02:53 PM EST
    ... probably not the best example to make my point, that sometimes it's a good exercise to test one's own reaction to things said by someone we oppose compared to our imagined reaction to the exact same, said by someone we agree with.

    That said, about the bird-landing, what surprised me the most was that while the kids behind him reacted instantly it seemed to take forever for Bernie Sanders to react - and come up with a remark. Failing the 3 o'clock phone call-test? What he finally came up with was, that the bird actually was a dove asking for world peace.

    Now, it was not a dove ... though I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of his fans insist it was. :)

    Oooooo (none / 0) (#210)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat May 21, 2016 at 02:58:37 PM EST
    Poor little troll. War, peace, the fiction of climate change, Mena, Whitewater, Benghazi, email conspiracies.  Those days are gone.  If only you were.

    Jim hasn't changed (none / 0) (#211)
    by glanton on Sat May 21, 2016 at 03:04:28 PM EST
    He was crying about these same things then too.  No biggie .

    LOL! Just because he's paranoid ... (none / 0) (#213)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat May 21, 2016 at 03:33:50 PM EST
    As a good ole boy from (none / 0) (#215)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 21, 2016 at 08:18:01 PM EST
    Arkansas would know.

    It is the hit dog that always hollers.