Friday Open Thread

I made these cookies last night, they were seriously very good. And they only took 10 minutes to put together. They looked just like the pictures.

Very busy today, here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Kay J (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 04:03:33 PM EST
    I'm gonna have the rare Conservatives who have reluctantly accepted we are what we eat and are actually physically fit make these in Germany. I will not tell them that I got this recipe from one of Timothy McVeigh's attorneys until they are all slightly drunken on German beer and vulnerable.

    Ooooh, you also have to bake (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Towanda on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 08:20:58 PM EST
    these for them and not tell them 'til it's too late: Hillary Clinton's Chocolate Chip Cookies

    Musical interlude... (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by desertswine on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 04:53:57 PM EST
    And how awful (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 11:38:45 PM EST
    I started following Kurt Eichenwald on twitter because Armando retweeted something from him. I had read Eichenwald but did not think to follow him on twitter. A Trump troll who knew Eichenwald had epilepsy tweeted a flashing lights gif to him and caused a seizure.

    He is on hiatus from Twitter

    How sad. We are truly in uncharted territory. (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 05:54:57 AM EST
    This is becoming scary. Far too many Republicans of late have apparently lost both their ethical bearings and moral compasses, given their supporters' increasing propensity toward engaging in this sort of abusive and even violent behavior.

    Good people everywhere really need to now rise up and stand together, in vocal and concrete opposition to a political party which has clearly broken free of its moorings, and is quickly shedding itself of any and all pretensions to basic common courtesy and simple human decency.



    Did you see the comments (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Nemi on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 06:26:09 AM EST
    following what appeared to be a tweet from his wife? Truly, unbelievably, deplorable commenters! What I simply can't seem to wrap my head around is this urge to mock, ridicule, and much, much worse, a person on this person's own Twitter feed? Or at all, anywhere, for that matter.

    Sore -- and mean! -- winners galore all over social media. What's up with that attitude, I wonder?


    What are the words you could (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 07:50:18 AM EST
    Even use to describe that response? He is someone I check on for news because I'm staying away from news. Not that that's helping. I'm sick to my stomach daily still. Is this our new normal?

    Anonymity can embolden some people ... (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 07:55:10 AM EST
    ... to say and do truly awful things which they otherwise would never have the courage to even seriously contemplate, were their actual name and personal identity to be firmly affixed to both word and deed.

    I think we are seeing the very worst (5.00 / 4) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 12:06:35 PM EST
    Of that dynamic. Every neighborhood bully found the others and they gang. They are roving violence now.

    Super venomous. I'm a bit mouthy but I could almost feel a Trump troll try to choke me through the screen yesterday. And then I'm asking myself why, why engage them?

    But I don't think they're going away anytime soon.


    "Deplorable" is too kind (5.00 / 5) (#21)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 08:09:07 AM EST
    HC was absolutely right, although she was probably too mild in her choice of words.

    "Pathetic" and 'delusional" ... (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 08:29:45 AM EST
    ... are my preferred words to publicly describe those persons who choose to reside in a right-wing parallel universe where outright fiction, manufactured anecdote and inappropriate metaphor hold sway, truth is casually dismissed as a non sequitur, and the dissemination of inconvenient facts is interpreted as a macro-aggressive act to be shouted down and worse.

    Privately, the words I'd use for such people are hardly suitable for a family-friendly website such as Jeralyn's.



    RIP, Lawrence Colburn (1949-2016). (5.00 / 7) (#24)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 10:01:24 AM EST
    On March 16, 1968, while serving as a gunner aboard a U.S. Army OH-23 helicopter gunship during the Vietnam War, 18-year-old Pvt. Larry Colburn trained his M-60 machine gun in a threatening manner on fellow U.S. soldiers at a then-obscure hamlet called My Lai, and helped to put a stop to their wanton slaughter of hundreds of civilians in that village.

    Commanders of the Americal Division then attempted to cover up the massacre by fabricating a report of the incident. Pvt. Colburn was awarded the Bronze Star on May 14, 1968, but the report accompanying the award was a complete fabrication, and the signature of his commanding officer on that report had been forged.

    On December 20, 1969, Pvt. Colburn testified before Gen. William Peers and his fact-finding commission, which had been tasked by the Pentagon to investigate allegations of a massacre at My Lai. Colburn told commissioners the hard truth about that terrible day, first about what he had actually seen occurring, and then what he and his fellow gunship crewmembers did in direct response.

    The next year, now a civilian, Colburn further testified as a witness for the prosecution at the court-martial of Lt. William Calley, who commanded the company that perpetrated the slaughter. Lt. Calley was subsequently found guilty of 22 counts of murder and sentenced to life in prison, but was later pardoned by President Richard Nixon.

    Godspeed, Larry Colburn, a true American hero.

    Okay, that's enough doom and gloom for me ... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 10:23:46 AM EST
    ... this morning. It's 6:20 a.m. in the islands, and we're off to the airport in 10 minutes to fly to Honolulu for our grandson's first birthday luau, which is a longstanding local tradition celebrating a child's first year of life.

    So, speaking for myself only, I'm going set aside our troubles for a while and simply have a good time today, and I would further urge all of you to consider doing the same, in whatever manner it may please you. We can once again pick up the gauntlet and solve our nation's crises later tonight or tomorrow.

    Take care, everyone, and have a blessed Saturday.  

    A federal grand jury (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by KeysDan on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 02:39:09 PM EST
    indicted Edgar Welch, the accused Pizzagate shooter, on several counts including interstate transport of firearms for purposes of committing a crime, assault with a weapon and possession of firearms in a crime.  Welch plead not guilty.

    Edgar Welch traveled from North Carolina to Washington, DC to "self-investigate" a child sex slave ring operated out of the basement of the Comet Ping Pong pizza place and headed up by Hillary Clinton and John Podesta. Apparently guided by FAKE NEWS and right wing brain fever,  Welch walked into the basement-less pizza place and opened fire, terrifying the customers for over an hour.

    it's actually hearbreaking (none / 0) (#77)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 08:00:24 PM EST
    from nytimes.com

    On Wednesday, I spoke with Mr. Welch, who... appeared downcast and at times distracted as he answered questions for 45 minutes, the maximum time allowed by the jail. "I just wanted to do some good and went about it the wrong way," he said.

    What did he think when he discovered there were no children at the pizzeria?

    "The intel on this wasn't 100 percent," he said. However, he refused to dismiss outright the claims in the online articles, conceding only that there were no children "inside that dwelling." He also said that child slavery was a worldwide phenomenon.


    No, your pity is misplaced (5.00 / 4) (#81)
    by Towanda on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 10:35:59 PM EST
    Save it for the deserving.  

    This deplorable gun nut deserves all that he gets.


    Indeed (none / 0) (#86)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 07:54:54 AM EST
    The only thing "heartbreaking" about the situation is what the owners of these businesses and their families have gone through the past few months.  The deplorable idiot who chose to believe this ridiculous conspiracy theory and then terrorized these people deserves no pity at all.

    I have an acquaintamce (none / 0) (#131)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 08:34:04 AM EST
    Who had lunch at Comet with her 3 year old just an hour or so before this nut walked in with a gun.  She was more than a little rattled when she heard how close they came to being there.

    Is our democracy in danger? (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by KeysDan on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 02:52:20 PM EST
    Yes.  research points to warning signs, suggests Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt, professors of government at Harvard University.  An important read, ending "we must be vigilant, the warning signs are real."

    About that $1T infrastructure (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 10:00:43 AM EST
    ... promise that Trump made?

    Nevermind.  They're now sending mixed signals and saying it's not going to be a priority right away.   Turns out,  Trump didn't realize that infrastructure spending too create jobs is " not a very Republican thing."

    Amazing how many people are foolish enough to buy snake oil.

    My Prediction (none / 0) (#126)
    by RickyJim on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 08:16:21 PM EST
    Trump will spend most of his time seeing how many Obama executive orders he can cancel and tweeting how great the country will be after it is rid of them.  Expect heavy use of lawsuits.  Proposing legislation is not his style.  I expect there will be more than the usual number of Trump appointments that will be rejected by the Senate.  He will tweet out insults to Republican senators that vote against them.

    Appointments? (none / 0) (#128)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 05:33:56 AM EST
    Not approved by 51 Senaators.....maybe 1, 2 at the most
    Democrats will make the hearings bruising, but they will pass.

    There are a ton of executive orders to be reversed, so yes, The new administration will be very busy.
    Plus regulation (laws) written by individual agencies that go too far.

    That is one of the reasons for the Trump Market, the relaxing of onerous business regulation.
    EPA and DOdd Frank regs will be roll backed, enabling business to grow. Tax reform (if ever passed) is another reason for the stock market rise.


    We are quite (none / 0) (#129)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 06:56:51 AM EST
    aware that Trump plans to repeat the mistakes of the Bush Administration. I would not be surprised to see another economic collapse within four years. We definitely know that many Americans are going to lose their health insurance. Hospitals are expecting a 5 to 7% decline. So probably have some layoffs there too.

    Funny stuff (none / 0) (#132)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 08:39:14 AM EST
    The stock market has continued to rise because of Trump's baggy tax plan that might become law at some point in the future and because of "onerous" regulations that have been in place during Obama's terms - the best performing market in decades.



    Exactly (none / 0) (#133)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 08:04:52 PM EST
    The stock market knows that the EPA will stop being a drag on the economy,
    Likewise Dodd Frank
    That is driving the market surge

    Energy sector has had a very very good month


    Of COURSE it does (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by Yman on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 09:25:11 PM EST
    Which explains how Obama had the highest market growth in decades with all his "onerous" regulations.  Ya know ... when he was actually in office.

    You should heed your own advice and loosen it.


    Lol (none / 0) (#142)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Dec 23, 2016 at 06:31:05 PM EST
    It was a forced market. There was zero interest rates.
    No where else to put money other than the stock market. The ed forced all cash into the market, there was no savings earnings to be had.
    That and the Fed pump, pushing cash into the economy.

    LOL! (none / 0) (#143)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 23, 2016 at 08:14:34 PM EST
    Whatever little lies it takes to make you feel better.

    You really (none / 0) (#144)
    by TrevorBolder on Fri Dec 23, 2016 at 09:23:34 PM EST
    Have a hard time with the truth , don't you.

    That was the biggest complaint about the Fed pumping the cash , along with the low interest rates, the only way to make money was in the market.
    Geez, where have you been?


    I do have a "hard time" with the truth (none / 0) (#145)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 23, 2016 at 09:51:05 PM EST
    I insist on it by pointing out when wingnuts pushe silly lies, like the lie that there was "no where else to put money other than the stock market."

    I was in the land of reality.  You should visit sometime.


    Okay (1.00 / 1) (#146)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 07:20:24 AM EST
    The ball is in your court.

    Find any other investment where you could put cash, other than your mattress, and get returns?

    If you had read any financial paper or columns, they all stated the simple fact, quantitative easing, zero interest rates were driving money to the stock market. You do know what happens when money flows into the market? It rises.

    You so much remind me of that Pee Wee Herman movie, no matter anyone says, if it goes against your religious dogma, no matter how true it is, yo u would rather deny it than deny your liberal leader.

    http://tinyurl.com/zk7xm8o  Okay Pee Wee


    Setiously? (none / 0) (#147)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 07:48:55 AM EST
    Real estate, bonds, gold, P2P lending,  life (insurance) settlementshould.  That should get you started.   Next time you should male or harder than a layup.

    You remind me of Pee Wee Herman, too.  For entirely different reasons.


    Written in 2014 (none / 0) (#149)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 09:07:57 AM EST
    Pretty much covers it, and this written by everyone, guess you missed it.

    The Bull Market Will be Over When QE Ends

    http://tinyurl.com/hd9a5gy   Forbes

    The moment of truth for the stock market  is close is hand. That's because the Fed's tapering off of bond and mortgage purchases is winding down..... In three months or so I believe the Fed will no longer be practicing its vaunted Quantitative Easing program to keep interest rates low and push the value of common shares higher. As I wrote in October, it was only in the weeks that QE was active from 2009 on and the Fed was buying that stocks roared ahead. When the Fed was out of the bond market, the stock market softened.

    Consider the record. From early 2009 when the S & P 500 index bottomed at 700, the broad stock market average has hit new record peaks above 1900, nearly a tripling of stock prices. This astounding performance would never have happened had the Fed not been pouring $85 billion every month into Treasury securities and mortgage backed bonds which pushed down interest rates and pushed up bond prices as well as stock prices. The goal was to increase  consumer balance sheets, contribute to growth in the economy and restore confidence after a devastating recession that could very well have become a depression. And it bloody well worked.

    As Bernanke  put it in 2010: "Higher stock prices will boost consumer wealth and help increase confidence, which can also spur spending. Increased spending will lead to higher incomes and profits that, in a virtuous circle, will further support economic expansion."  Be glad it worked toward creating the longest period of recovery in the American economy between recessions since the 1930's. Just by dint of historic example this bull market should have mostly run its course.

    Doesn't "cover it" at all (none / 0) (#151)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 09:52:28 AM EST
    It's nice you found an opinion piece you agreen with, but could you point out the part where he supports your  (false) claim that stocks were the place to invest?  Guess you missed that.

    BTW - Loved his prediction that market growth was going to end over two years ago.


    Were the only place to invest (none / 0) (#152)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 09:56:07 AM EST
    "No where else to put money other than the stock market".

    Take your pick (none / 0) (#155)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 10:30:08 AM EST

    Oh, and if you read the article, he thought it was going to end because he expected the Fed to raise rates, soon after he wrote the article. But that didn't happen


    Still nothing (none / 0) (#156)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 10:44:42 AM EST
    Guess you can't find one to support your false claim that stocks were the only investment.

    Guess his assumptions and predictions are as accurate as yours.


    Maybe you (none / 0) (#148)
    by FlJoe on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 08:15:34 AM EST
    are right(at least partly), but you infer that Obama's bull market (which lasted for years) was a result of "printing money" and dismiss it then turn around and laud "Trumps rally" (which has lasted for weeks) while ignoring the fact that the stock market is still existing in the same environment.

    If you are going to use stock prices as a metric you can't use unevenly applied caveats of your own choosing to enhance or diminish the facts.



    Again (none / 0) (#150)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 09:15:09 AM EST
    You are projecting, The Obama bull market was greatly assisted by quantitative easing, Fed purchases of bonds ( see above post), which enabled it to have such a lengthy run. Many analysts were worried that it wasn't supported by hard financial data, corporate earnings. I don't dismiss it, but there were reasons for it.

    As I don't "laud" the Trump bull run, I just try to explain the why.

    The last 8 years have shown steady but very slow economic growth, the worst ever post recession. Usually there is a burst of economic growth after a recession the size we had incurred. I think we would have had 4 % growth numbers if Obama was a bit more business friendly.
    Just explaining, Obama was playing to his base, thus the EPA and financial regulations, but they also constrict economic growth.
    The Donald ran on economic growth, and his policies will be to play up to his base.


    Again (none / 0) (#153)
    by FlJoe on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 09:59:44 AM EST
    you are using circular logic. The stock market rose because of "friendly" policy (thus Obama gets no credit) yet the recovery was disappointing because his policy were not "friendly" enough.

    Not circular at all (none / 0) (#154)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 10:25:53 AM EST
    Yes, the stock market rose , in part because of monetary policy. And that was the goal also...

    As Bernanke  put it in 2010: "Higher stock prices will boost consumer wealth and help increase confidence, which can also spur spending. Increased spending will lead to higher incomes and profits that, in a virtuous circle, will further support economic expansion."

    And it is not without merit to also state that GDP growth just might have hit that elusive 4% growth if the Obama administration just lightened up on some of the regulatory burden s for business. It really could have been a remarkable growth period for the past 8 years, so much so that it would have been easy to keep the party in power, in power for another 4 years, as opposed to it being a change election.
    As President Clinton once said, its the economy stupid. If the Obama administration really made a concerted effort to jump start the economy, it could easily have been Madame President.


    No, it is not cutting regulations (none / 0) (#159)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 01:10:17 PM EST
    or waging a war on the EPA that boosts the economy.

    It is the Gov't spending to support weak demand.  Classic John Maynard Keynes.  The New Deal and WWII spending.  Reagan increasing government spending (most visibly on Defense); Obama's stimulus, which was too small and subject of efforts by Dems in subsequent years to increase--all opposed by the GOP; and now Trump's infrastructure spending.

    Cutting regulations and taxes; yeah, that is how FDR did it.  Poppycock.  


    Do you agree Global Warning is (none / 0) (#157)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 12:52:46 PM EST
    is a hoax? (I won't ask about the "perpetrated by China" part.)

    That would explain the hostility to the EPA.

    You guys are amazing: Trump has boosted the economy and he hasn't even taken office.  By your metric--the stock market--Obama was hugely successful, but he gets no credit even for that.

    See, when you define success so narrowly, you can always come out a winner.

    It is pointless to discuss this with conservatives like you right now.  Trump is revisiting the Bush (W) economic policies:  Cut taxes, wage a war on the EPA, expand spending (W's was prescription drugs) and let their experience as CEOs or Executives infuse the government with enthusiasm and love for business people.  Hogwash then.  Hogwash now.  

    The infrastructure spending could help and is something that Democrats have been proposing for years.  Standard Keynesian policy.  The only policy of Trump's that might actually help. But let's see if it comes with cuts to Social Security and Medicare, etc.  

    And nothing Trump has proposed will bring jobs back, even stanch the flow of jobs from the midwest.  


    we have warmed from the 60's to the 90's (none / 0) (#158)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 01:06:27 PM EST
    And then paused. All climate computer models have been terribly off, but I believe that was by design, to scare the populace.

    I am more in the Lomborg and Freeman Dyson camp.



    The incremental measures taken are so damn expensive, and barely move the needle. When technology catches up, and carbon less energy is affordable, then we should adopt it.

    And that should be in 20 years or less. And the wailing will begin that we don't have 20 years....Based on what? Who?  Every model put out there so far has never been close to accurate.
    So , yes, we can afford another 20 years of fossil fuel.

    But lets not cripple our economy in the meantime, in the lauded Paris accords, China doesn't begin to start cutting emissions until 2030, our workers do not need to lose more jobs to benefit China


    Many words but same result (none / 0) (#160)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 01:25:33 PM EST
    as what the deniers say: do nothing.

    The wait 20 years means wait forever.   And there is no magic in your 20 year figure in any event.

    The bottom line is you oppose efforts to combat climate change.


    I oppose (none / 0) (#162)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 04:54:57 PM EST
    Wasting billions of dollars on futile gestures which will not accomplish what you want.
    I fear that the "climate change movement" however has been co opted, and some insiders are making themselves a fortune on this cottage industry.

    Why the total avoidance of nuclear power? That is clean, and new construction would be safe, not cheap, but safe.

    And some scientists as well, who have been living off of the government for the past 8 years.

    I am confident that the technological advances we will make it 20 years will seriously cut the need for fossil fuels.


    The stock market (none / 0) (#135)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 08:27:31 PM EST
    that is going gangbusters is the Russian stock market. Boy, are they excited to have your boy Trump at the helm. They know he's going to get rid of those sanctions and they are going to get a ton of money. Your motto should be Seig Heil Alt Right!

    The Scene (none / 0) (#139)
    by FlJoe on Thu Dec 22, 2016 at 08:28:23 AM EST
    A non-descript diner somewhere in the rust belt.

    The Cast: a group of down on their luck WWC.

    Diner #1 (reading from newspaper) "I see the stock market is way up since the election"

    Diner #2: "I can feel my economic anxiety just melting away"

    Diner #1: "I see they will do away with Dodd Frank"

    Diner #3: "yeah, I really miss those boom times in 08"

    Diner#1: "looks like they will do away with the EPA"

    Diner #4: "nobody appreciates the advantage of using tap water as paint thinner"

    Rod Serling; "next stop the twilight zone"


    The Mad Dog (none / 0) (#161)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 01:27:43 PM EST
    will need 60 votes to be confirmed as SecDef.  Because they need a waiver of the 7 year rule in place since WWII.

    That will be interesting.


    Isn't that rule (none / 0) (#163)
    by TrevorBolder on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 04:56:28 PM EST

    How so? (none / 0) (#164)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 09:47:23 PM EST
    The Constitution says nothing about the qualifications of a Secretary of Defense.

    But if Gen. Cheeto wants to sue, as is his want, that will take, what, only 1-2 years to resolve?  


    I thought the Constitution (none / 0) (#166)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Dec 25, 2016 at 10:32:04 PM EST
    Gave the Senate  the power only to advise and consent to a President's Cabinet choice, Not to set qualifications or set  limitations.
    If the President wants someone, they can either reject him or confirm him.
    Thus no need for the 60 votes to waive the law. It has never been challenged before, but still may be unconstitutional. I believe it probably is.

    The Dems may, however, (none / 0) (#165)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 24, 2016 at 09:55:11 PM EST
    like him, and he may not be what Trump really wants.  He is against torture, and more thoughtful and careful in avoiding unnecessary casualties and than his nickname would imply.

    The beautiful thing is (none / 0) (#130)
    by jbindc on Wed Dec 21, 2016 at 08:31:14 AM EST
    Thanks to Clinton v Jones, Donnie can be sued while serving as president.  Sonce he refuses to disentangle himself from his empire, I forsee a whole swath of lawsuits coming his way - from vendors he disn't pay, to sexual harassment, to breach of contract, etc. This will be aside from any of his illegal and corrupt actions as president, and should any of the cases get through (which they will), there's a good chance Donnie will have to be deposed at some point.

    Nah, Trump won't be deposed. (none / 0) (#140)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 22, 2016 at 07:23:01 PM EST
    He's the slave-to-ego type who will simply quit when the going gets tough and then try to blame others for it, just like former Gov. Sarah Palin did in Alaska.

    Lou Harris (5.00 / 3) (#123)
    by KeysDan on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 03:59:51 PM EST
    influential pollster and political consultant died, Dec 17, at his home in Key West, at the age of 95. (his wife of 60 years preceded him in death-2004).  Lou was among the first to provide polling to guide campaigns; his major client and dear friend, was John F Kennedy whom he worked with in his senate and, then, his presidential campaign.

    I came to know Lou Harris in Key West while working out at our local gym.  He would regale us with stories of the Kennedy's and politicians of whom he had knowledge.  When the owner of the gym decided to retire, Lou helped finance the purchase of the gym for a young trainer--he feared that the gym might close, otherwise, and he felt that his work outs, at his advanced age, kept him going.  And, they seemed to--for a good while.

    Trump - Let's have a nuclear arms race (5.00 / 1) (#141)
    by Yman on Fri Dec 23, 2016 at 09:02:41 AM EST
    The stupid.

    It hurts.

    Good Wife spinoff to premier in February (none / 0) (#1)
    by McBain on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 03:16:28 PM EST
    The Good Fight won't have any Florricks in it from what I can tell (thank god).  It will focus on Diane Lockhart and Lucca Quin. Hopefully, it will have the right blend of courtroom scenes and character development.

    I wouldn't mind seeing more Elsbeth Tascioni and Louis Canning but perhaps it's best to focus on new quirky characters.  

    you will see more (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 06:31:49 PM EST
    elsbeth. Thankfully, I don't think Louis Canning is in it.

    I don't care much for Lucca Quinn, her role started good and then devolved into a one dimensional goodie goodie.  Eli's daughter Marissa, who will be back, also devolved into a one dimensional character. You could predict her lines after a while.

    The new show's other principal character plays Diane's goddaughter, a lesbian who has a girlfriend who along with Diane are the victims of a financial scam. I have no interest in watching crime victims.

    For a "hunk" as they call it, they will feature some new guy as a state prosecutor who doesn't look very sexy to me. He will battle Lucas. (boring.)

    The show really went downhill after Archie Panjabi (Kalinda) left. Without Julianna Margulies as Alicia, and without Eli and Peter, I doubt I'll watch. The only name I'm glad to see back besides Diane is her husband, Gary Cole.

    The "showrunners" and writers of this show are terrible and should have been dumped. So many better shows out there.


    link to article (none / 0) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 06:33:37 PM EST
    about the new character (Diane's goddaughter)

    I thought the show went downhill when Will died (none / 0) (#8)
    by McBain on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 09:02:46 PM EST
    I wasn't as big a Kalinda fan as you but they didn't really replace her either.  I agree with you about Marissa and Lucca.  I enjoy Gary Cole in just about everything he does.  I've give the show a chance since there isn't really another solid legal show out there as far as I know?

    i loved Kalinda (none / 0) (#9)
    by linea on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 09:20:51 PM EST
    i enjoyed the good wife as a series. but i absolutely hated the "i fvck my boss" storyline with Will. it was pathetically freudian and reductivist^ and a stereotype^. i felt all her relationships were from the mind of a man. that she existed in such a miniscule world where her only options were her boss or her employees. but i did enjoy the series.

    ^ to simplify in an extreme way.
    ^ a widely held image of a person or thing.


    PALEO? what's a paleo cookie? (none / 0) (#10)
    by linea on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 09:33:44 PM EST
    this is funny:
    So after kissing him for at least 5 minutes and using my really annoying voice to show how excited I was to see him...

    the cookies do look awesome which is why i tend toward vanilla (smile).

    Paleo is a diet (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 09:50:53 PM EST
    here, but please use google before asking these questions.

    thank you (none / 0) (#13)
    by linea on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 10:14:11 PM EST
    now that ive had (none / 0) (#76)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 07:23:25 PM EST
    two glasses of wine...

    i know paleo is a dietary fad that asserts it's healthier to mimic what (they speculate) people in the paleolitic era ate.

    i was actually mocking the idea of a "paleo cookie."

    but concerned that Jeralyn was a devote, i simply replied "thank you" rather than explain myself.


    Well, my experience (none / 0) (#82)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 05:59:12 AM EST
    with the Paleo diet (after too many encounters with Candida infestations in my mouth),
    I dove headfirst into it, and after 1 month had started getting a pain in my big toe. I thought I must have jammed it while walking barefoot, it felt dislocated. After 2 more weeks of really intense pain in the toe, went to see the doctor. Told her I had a dislocated toe, she took 1 look and laughed. You got gout!!!
    She mentioned 2 approaches to alleviate the pain, use oral anti inflammatory, or use the direct approach in addition to the oral medication!
    I was in so much pain I took option #2, and she plunged that 8 inch needle right into the big toe.  I have since backed off my energetic approach to the paleo, but still try to avoid most carbs.

    comment about the two busted lawyers (none / 0) (#11)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 09:49:09 PM EST
    deleted for use of objectionable words that will bring out spammers and censors. You may not use those words here even though you are quoting a news source. Here's one article describing the Indictment the comment was referring to.

    The case was a long time coming, it's been under investigation for quite a while.

    The charges

    Paul R. Hansmeier and John L. Steele each face these counts:

    • Conspiracy to commit mail fraud and wire fraud, 1 count
    • Conspiracy to commit perjury and suborn perjury, 1 count
    • Conspiracy to commit money laundering, 1 count
    • Wire fraud, 10 counts
    • Mail fraud, 5 counts

    The indictment is here.

    Please do not use the p word here without asterisks.

    Whenever Donald tweets about (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 11:33:08 PM EST
    The movement, in my mind I see him on the toilet

    Whenever I hear Trump speak, ... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 07:49:42 AM EST
    ... Natalie Merchant's now-terribly poignant "Motherland" comes immediately to mind and drowns him out:

    "Motherland, cradle me,
    Close my eyes, lullaby me to sleep.
    Keep me safe, lie with me,
    Stay beside me, don't go.
    Don't you go."

    Hers is a desperate plea on behalf of an innocence forever shattered, a world that we once took for granted, and our sense of hope which we cannot now afford to lose.



    I am afraid (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by mm on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 09:18:33 AM EST
    we're witnessing America sleepwalking towards committing suicide.

    It sure was a great country while it lasted.


    i feel (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by linea on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 06:02:50 PM EST
    too many people here are hysterical.

    there will be no krisrallnacht, the klu klux klan is not having a resurgence, and trump is not a nazi or a fascist. the real and very serious concern is that trump will let the libertarian and religious republicans, such as paul ryan and ted cruz, have their fetish.^

    that's how i feel.

    ^ a course of action to which one has an excessive and irrational commitment.


    The KKK IS having a resurgence (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:31:29 AM EST
    The Southern Poverty Law Center tracks hate groups, they are fomenting and membership growing under Trump. They feel validated by him and his ability to be elected. It is a new time for them, a new beginning.

    i checked (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:38:11 PM EST
    "Today, the Center estimates that there are between 5,000 and 8,000 Klan members, split among dozens of different - and often warring - organizations that use the Klan name."

    in a country of 300 million and localized in poor rural south-eastern states.

    seems to me there are more 4-chan wankers primed to go on a "supreme gentleman" anti-feminist killing spree.


    Sort of apples and oranges (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:54:57 PM EST
    Sexism and misogyny isn't racism. They can coexist in one person, but aren't the same thing and the Klan aren't the only white nationalists in town anymore. The illness being fed that I am addressing is white nationalism.

    i disagree (none / 0) (#56)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 04:17:33 PM EST
    not apples and oranges at all.

    the new "alt-right" is part of the neoreactionary movement which is violently anti-feminist. the klu klux klan are an anachronism not a serious issue. im my opinion.


    The resurgent white supremacist (5.00 / 3) (#57)
    by jondee on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 04:38:35 PM EST
    movement has publicly identified themselves predominantly with Trump's movement, which includes the "alt-right."

    Is there any debate about that?

    In other words, to spell it out for the kindergarteners, there's something about Trump's movement and message that inspires these people. And that in itself should constitute a big red flag -- for folks who study the lessons of history and who value rationality and decency and rational, democratic discourse.


    i dont believe (none / 0) (#61)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:02:33 PM EST
    there is any resurgent white supremacist movement. certainly
     not a a resurgent klan movement - a few goofs being more vocal notwithstanding.

    the alt-right is a neoreactionary movement which "favors a return to older societal constructs and forms of government, including support for monarchism and traditional gender roles, coupled with a libertarian or otherwise conservative approach to economics."

    it is violently anti-feminist and is exemplified by killers such as Elliot Roger and Anders Breivik.


    Your beliefs are not facts (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:19:29 PM EST
    Facts trump "feelings" every time (pun intended).  The White Nationalist Movement is growing.  You cited two, anti-feminist killers from several years ago (both were white nationalists/racists - and one killing occurred in a different country) to support the idea that there is a growing group of "4-chan anti-feminist wankers set to go on an anti-feminist killing spree", while dismissing the far greater number (including Breivik and Rogers) of white nationalist hate crimes and killings.

    Good lord (5.00 / 4) (#71)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 06:23:34 PM EST
    You don't believe it (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:55:57 PM EST
    so I'm lying about people distributing white supremacist flyers a couple of miles from where I live?

    I believe Norway is a magical, mist enshrouded land of giants and dwarves who jealously guard their treasures hidden in the mountains.

    So much for belief.


    While the Norwegian (none / 0) (#84)
    by Nemi on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 07:03:59 AM EST
    mass murderer no doubt was/is also an anti-feminist, his strongest urge to -- totally heartbreaking -- kill and maim so many Social Democrats, mostly youngsters, was 'violently' political. Had not much, if anything, to do with anti-feminism, but a whole lot with white supremacism!

    I disagree (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 04:46:39 PM EST
    The white nationalist movement consists of far more than just the KKK.  The white nationalist movement is extremely serious and growing, as opposed to what you claimed.

    No idea what your theory "4-chan anti-feminist wankers set to go on an anti-feminist killing spree" is based on, other than the usual "feeling".


    They are two entirely different (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 04:49:38 PM EST
    Things and you run the risk right now of deeply offending people of color. I see feminists doing this all the time right now. Two separate issues, both fall under civil rights. But they are not the same thing. We can join each other in battle, and women of color and LGBT of color do fight two battles, but they are not the same. We can be allies, we can hear each other, we can support each other, but different issues and fight.

    You are absolutely wrong (none / 0) (#96)
    by Chuck0 on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 12:58:24 PM EST
    if you think Klan membership and/or white nationalists are localized to the south eastern US. You haven't seen enough of this country or lived here long enough to make that statement. The Klan has always been in Indiana. There lots of white supremacists/nationalists in my part of Pennsyltucky. Get out and travel a bit. Learn.

    People have been distributing (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jondee on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:39:40 PM EST
    white supremacist flyers around here -- in Rochester effing New York.

    Something I've never heard of happening in the 30+ years I've been living here.

    And guess what the tagline on the flyers is: Make Rochester White Again.


    Neofascism is a not-insignificant (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by jondee on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 04:53:58 PM EST
    phenomenon in Norway, from what I hear.

    And many people are quite concerned about it there.

    Or am I mistaken?


    ive already posted this (none / 0) (#62)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:10:53 PM EST
    but i'll post it again... with a few edits.

    the alt-right is xenophobic and part of the neoreactionary movement which "favors a return to older societal constructs and forms of government, including support for monarchism and traditional gender roles, coupled with a libertarian or otherwise conservative approach to economics."

    it is violently anti-feminist and is exemplified by killers such as Elliot Roger and Anders Breivik.


    Why keep reposting the same definition? (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:27:00 PM EST
    It doesn't help your argument.  Not to mention the fact that you didn't provide a link to your source, which appears to be a Wikipedia entry for the Dark Enlightenment movement, which has nothing to do with the White Nationalist Movement in this country.

    my argument (none / 0) (#66)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:50:41 PM EST
    is that the kkk is an anachronism. that the number of dissaffected skin-head youth is insignificant, and that the nazi party in america is a miniscule delusional group.

    the current issue is the alt-right neoreactionary movement not a half-dozen beer-swilling obesse alabamans with secret klan handshakes. i listed the ideology of this group and they are xenophobic, anti-gay, socially conservative, libertarian, and violently anti-feminist.


    Your argumen is wrong (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 06:10:40 PM EST
    1.  White Nationalist groups are growing in the United States.

    2.  It's not a "half dozen".  There are thousands of them throughout the US.  The states with the largest numbers are California, Texas, Florida and Pennsylvania.  The number of white nationalist groups is growing.

    3.  The definition you're using is wrong - and it's to a completely different group.

    4.  No idea why you're trying to minimize the significance of the white nationalist movement, but they've killed hundreds of people.

    5.  Facts are convincing.  "Feelings" are not.

    But quite honestly, I think that most Californians have grown weary of their white-wing bullschitt, and are pushing back hard against them. Recent announcements of KKK / nationalist rallies have tended to draw large numbers of counter-protesters, which always dwarf the number of actual rally participants. But that, of course, can sometimes lead to violence if counter-protesters become both agitated by the very presence of white supremacists and further emboldened by their own huge turnout. That's what happened at Anaheim's Pearson Park last February, when arriving Klansmen were immediately confronted by an enormous hostile crowd that was more than eager to shut them down.

    Yup (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 07:16:31 PM EST
    California is a perfect microcosm of what happening in the South...snort

    yup? (none / 0) (#78)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 08:11:39 PM EST
    and the hillbilly south is a perfect microcosm of what is happening in america? snort to you!

    yes. you see? (none / 0) (#74)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 07:11:50 PM EST
    i agree with donald 100%

    The US history of slavery anchors (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 07:01:30 PM EST
    Racism where I live. I'm going to suppose racism in the US and particularly the South is a different social construct than you imagine.

    ... tend to be either transplanted Southerners, or second / third generation descendants of the great migration of Oklahomans and Arkansans westward during the 1930s, most of whom eventually settled down in the Central Valley. There are parts of central California which are definitely redneck country. And in Southern Cal, the Klan has been rather active of late in places like San Bernardino, Whittier and Fullerton.

    But not surrounded by the like minded (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 09:33:04 AM EST
    Of shared heritage.

    No, they're not. (none / 0) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 12:07:01 PM EST
    And in a diverse state like California, the message quickly becomes a target of loathing and derision. In Whittier last summer, Klansmen going door to door in the neighborhood were met by a group which politely asked them to cease, desist and leave. When they refused, a mob soon materialized down the block and made clear their intent to use more coercive means to persuade the KKKers to comply with the request. They ceased, desisted and departed.

    people's lawns, etc., in the middle of the night, but had not heard about extrajudicial mobs forming in response, and I cannot google any references.

    ... about one block off Beverly Blvd. and Greenleaf Ave. He said that some Klansmen had actually been going door-to-door in his neighborhood in the late afternoon, trying to talk to white kids who were already home from school, but doing so before their parents returned from work. He said that they were chased off by local residents who gathered just down the street and threatened them if they didn't leave. Admittedly, it's anecdotal and I really should have been more specific about where I got my information.

    From watching local SoCal news online recently, I've seen that the KKK and Nazis have also recently been active in the communities around San Bernardino, which surprises me because there are a lot of minority residents out there. Can't imagine what they'd hope to accomplish, except perhaps to intimidate people of color and immigrants.

    But other than what I've heard from family and local media, I haven't really paid too much attention to the KKK's activities in CA. Growing up, we always knew they were out there. We were passing through Bakersfield one afternoon in the summer of 1978 on our way back to Pasadena from Yosemite when we witnessed Klanmen holding a rally downtown, complete with Confederate battle flags, which attracted perhaps 100 people both pro- and anti-KKK. We stopped and gawked for a little while as they shouted at one another, until my mother decided that we'd seen enough, and we then went on our way.

    And of course this year, there were those violent confrontations in Anaheim and Sacramento between vastly outnumbered Klansmen who were attempting to exercise their constitutional rights by holding a rally, and a horde of counter-protestors who were obviously spoiling for a fight. The local police in both instances really needed to deploy far more resources to the scene than they ultimately did, because the few cops who were there to keep the peace failed to protect the Klansmen from being violently assaulted.

    The KKK/ white nationalist presence in California appear to constitute little more than a nuisance factor. They're still unnerving to have around, nonetheless. We're lucky we live in Hawaii.



    Trump's best county in CA (none / 0) (#127)
    by MKS on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 09:31:32 PM EST
    was Kern County in the Central Valley--Bakersfield.

    So what are you going to do about it? (none / 0) (#25)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 10:08:28 AM EST
    Get involved, join the Democratic Party, and help organize resistance and response in your own community. Doing nothing in the face of an active threat will only ensure that you realize your self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I have thought and felt that way also (none / 0) (#30)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:27:22 AM EST
    I keep reminding myself I'm really in the belly here, Southern Alabama.

    Tonight Christmas shopping two people in front of me had the most stunning, infuriating, tear inducing discussion I have yet been privy to. They had matching T-shirts on that seemed to be from a Christian event they were attending together. The woman listened enraptured to the man as they discussed some things that are suddenly disturbing about Trump. Here I have it, right before me, this thing that many have discussed. Will "the Christians" ever notice how NOT CHRISTIAN Trump is? Here they were, they were noticing.

    Then the man says,"You know whose fault it is? This is what you get after Obama. Obama is the most divisive President we've ever had!" And the woman was completely wide eyed eating up every word.

    And I want to scream, I want cry, I feel like I can't allow this conversation to go on without some kind of discussion about personal responsibility and demanding to know exactly how Obama is the most divisive President in history. If I start though, I'm so angry I will appear insane and froth will form around my mouth. My sixteen year old is with me. You just don't do that in the checkout line of Barnes and Noble.

    I know there is something to learn here for me. But it is painful. And I'm spent. I'm spent living among such constant daily insanity.


    I just heard (5.00 / 3) (#35)
    by MKS on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 10:18:28 AM EST
    the GOP contingent at the gym this morning go on and on how Michelle Obama is an angry black woman; that someone talked to someone who talked to someone who saw her college grades and she is well not really that smart.

    Drives me nuts....Michelle Obama is Betty Crocker as FLOTUS. A very bright, accomplished professional woman, who decided to pattern herself after Laura Bush as FLOTUS.  Angry Black Woman?  WTF????  It all stems, sociologists say, from the deep fear whites have had for generations of a slave revolt. The thought of angry Black people is very frightening to whites.  (Gee, I wonder why.)


    Those guys are just too much (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by MKS on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 10:49:59 AM EST
    They look Republican from 200 yards away.   Mid 40s-50s.  Always have the t.v. tuned to Fox.  Hateful National Enquirer stuff, they spout.

    They all line up in a row on cardio machines and talk GOP politics the whole time.   And the ringleader never shuts up.  Always talk, talk, talk.  My ear buds can't block him out.  And somehow the women in the gym just fawn over him.  I can't figure that one out, either.

    And, another pet peeve: if you can talk, talk, talk while doing cardio, you aren't doing it right, is what I have always been told.

    I have maintained my discipline of not saying anything.  But gawd can't those guys just shut up.


    A DK blogger who has a very active Facebook (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:50:00 PM EST
    He is a writer, and read 50 Shades of Grey (which I didn't because I think it's stupid and I used to have fantasies about spanking John Boehner, not the other way around). He said that the success of 50 Shades of Grey was the canary in the coal mine for the direction American white women were going and Trumpism.

    "Terrorist fist-bumps" (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by jondee on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:56:26 PM EST
    Remember that Fox high-water mark for moronic dog whistling?

    They just had to say it, because black people are all secretly full of rage and violent fantasies toward whites and just waiting for the right time to go on a Nat Turner-like rampage.


    New Book Says Let Despots Rule Middle East (none / 0) (#29)
    by RickyJim on Sat Dec 17, 2016 at 09:02:16 PM EST
    When I interrogated Saddam, he told me: "You are going to fail. You are going to find that it is not so easy to govern Iraq." When I told him I was curious why he felt that way, he replied: "You are going to fail in Iraq because you do not know the language, the history, and you do not understand the Arab mind."

    Nixon now reckons Hussein had a point and that a ruthless strongman like him was necessary to "maintain Iraq's multi-ethnic state" and keep both Sunni extremism and the power of Shiite-led Iran, a Hussein foe, at bay.


    As if the people of the Middle East (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:59:40 AM EST
    Will have no say in that?

    The Trump era (none / 0) (#36)
    by MKS on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 10:28:08 AM EST
    will try to teach us to love dictators, and to shun democracy.  

    Trump is off to a good start in strong man rule, having lost the popular vote by more than 2%.


    We can't undo the Iraq War (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 11:11:46 AM EST
    But if the Arab Spring had any single teaching moment it was that the Democracies of the world have no business enriching dictators, particularly arming them. Enrich the people when you can though, and there are strategies that work in doing that. I know the Obama administration has dirt on their hands in this respect of arming dictators though, but they do challenge dictators at the UN and using other avenues.

    Yes, the Obama admin does have dirt (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 09:41:36 AM EST
    on its hands.

    We just signed a deal that gave them nukes and paid a king's ransom in unmarked bills... But the most damning is this:

    The Iranian Green Movement (Persian: جنبش سبز ایران‎‎) refers to a political movement that arose after the 2009 Iranian presidential election, in which protesters demanded the removal of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad from office. Green was initially used as the symbol of Mir Hossein Mousavi's campaign, but after the election it became the symbol of unity and hope for those asking for annulment of what they regarded as a fraudulent election. Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi are recognized as political leaders of the Green Movement.[1] Hossein-Ali Montazeri was also mentioned as spiritual leader of the movement.[2]

    The Green Movement protests were a major event in Iran's modern political history and observers claimed that protests were the largest since the Iranian Revolution of 1978-1979.[3][4][5]


    We let that slide with no protests or support for the protesters. That told Iran they could do what they wanted. From taking US military hostages to "buzzing" our ships to grabbing people for ransom to knowing that we would agreed that Iran could have nukes.

    No good has came or will come from this.


    Perhaps not love dictators (none / 0) (#69)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 06:03:39 PM EST
    But I feel they may well first consider this provision,

    How does any action affect American interests?,

    Which might not love dictators, but we will not readily exert our will if there is no American interest to speak of.


    Bingo (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by FlJoe on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 07:55:58 AM EST
    Foreign policy by the bottom line, running the world like a business always works out for the best.  But let me fix it for you.
    but we will not readily exert our will if there is no Exxon-Mobile interest to speak of

    Suck it up peasants!

    Obama has been pulling our military (none / 0) (#109)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 09:39:51 AM EST
    Back from protecting shipping lanes. He thought it was counter productive that the U.S. protects trade for the world in that fashion. It has upset a lot of the corporations though that shipped U.S. jobs overseas. The activity itself has been done pretty quietly. Trump will place the U.S. back into the muddle policing the trade of the world.

    Major corporations of the world use free U.S. military muscle, they were none too happy to feel it slipping away. It is one thing that I feel certain Mattis wasn't happy about. The military mind seldom sees conceding held territory or strength as a positive.


    As if we haven't done it before (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 09:33:49 PM EST
    Until the blood drenches us. Don't try to act like this is some new approach.

    It was from a article I read a while back (none / 0) (#83)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 06:07:40 AM EST
    And they mentioned 3 approaches, and listed the pro's and con's of the three.

    The article also surmised that The Donald would most likely take this route.

    It would cause anxiety in smaller countries in proximity to Russia , China, as we just very well may shrug if the giants near them start throwing their weight around.

    There is no perfect foreign policy.

    I feel Obama stayed totally out of Syria, not even adopting halfway measures to cripple the Syrian air force, set up no fly zones, because he has seen what happens with mission creep, and steadfastly refused to get us involved in another foreign disaster zone, despite the horrors happening there.


    Donald (none / 0) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 07:23:15 AM EST
    will do whatever Vladimir tells him to do. No need to get all convoluted on this. It's pretty simple.

    Trevor, we all see that Donald is (none / 0) (#88)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 08:00:58 AM EST
    Going to take that approach. And since Putin decided to invade Ukraine there isn't a more dangerous choice Trump could make. The existing White House and the Pentagon has rushed US troops ahead of schedule to Poland, and a regular rotation will now exist there on the border.

    Heartsick what our allies and the world will be put through under Trump. Just heartsick.


    I don't know (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 04:28:44 PM EST
    Crimea was not too happy about Obamas response
    And Ukraine, was crying out for help,
    Arms at the least, and that all fell on deaf ears

    So Obama was already headed in that direction


    Everything isn't a nail (none / 0) (#100)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 05:31:48 PM EST
    And the Ukraine according to the Polish student on the train with us last year is receiving all sorts of aid via Poles. Who knows who else is sending aid.

    It is a form of American Exceptionalism to want to believe we are the only way Ukraine can be aided. Ukraine's neighbors have skin in this game.


    Trump will try to arm dictators (none / 0) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 09:35:48 PM EST
    For self enrichment. Mattis will fight him.

    Like Saddam Hussein? (none / 0) (#97)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 01:59:40 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 05:32:36 PM EST
    And European democracies armed Gaddafi.

    About that drone seized by China ... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 07:45:53 AM EST
    ... and all the conservatives saying that it was an "act of war" and how it was a "test" of Obama's "weakness" like the P3 incident with Bush?

    Turns out that - after China agreed to return the drone - their fearless, orange warrior opened his big mouth and said we should just tell them to "keep it", soooooooo ...

    ... nevermind.

    General Cheeto (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by MKS on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 10:10:09 AM EST
    fails to mount a charge.  Oh well, next time, if the cameras are present, he will sound even more bellicose.

    Yep, like his supporters (none / 0) (#40)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 12:11:47 PM EST
    Loves to talk tough, and do it when someone else will have to do his fighting for him.

    That would be funny... (none / 0) (#46)
    by desertswine on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:27:35 PM EST
    if it weren't so not funny.  The giant yam is quite the nut case.  

    MKS, here is my answer to (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 11:34:41 AM EST
    your off top topic comment in the thread just above.

    An exchange of ideas presupposes you actually have ideas, and facts and reasoned arguments.  Not drive-by bullet points of conservative apologia.

    I have posted time and time again details on subjects that you started, but then failed, to answer. Here's an example.

    My position on undocumented persons is simple.

    First you close the borders to stop the flow of cheap labor that hurts every worker.

    At the same time you issue green cards to every undocumented person who can pass a criminal background check.

    Those failing criminal background checks or those to do not apply for and get a green card are immediately deported.

    You have not responded to that. You appear to want open borders.

    Am I wrong?

    I have already responded to this (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by MKS on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 12:51:19 PM EST
    long ago:  I am, and most Dems are, for the Comprehensive Immigration Bill that Marco was for before he chickened out.  That is such old news.

    As to a debate on this forum, your posts reinforce the idea that the GOP voter votes on culture, not policy.  The GOP is otherwise incoherent.   The idea of strong and aggressive foreign policy goes out the window via Trump's support of Putin.  That is just fine with his supporters.  Russia interferes with the election to boost Trump, and the quid pro quo from Gen. Cheeto seems plain for all to see:  weaken NATO, dismantle the EU, look the other way in the Ukraine.  

    But boosting the Russians runs contrary to all former GOP thought. And it is incoherent given  other GOP foreign policy objectives.   Russia is the chief patron of Iran, and if one considers Iran a significant adversary, boosting Russia is not all that good idea.  And the Israelis can't be too pleased with us playing footsies with Iran's chief supporter.

    But all is fine with GOP embrace of Putin.  No problemo, because if Trump is for it, so is the GOP voter.

    And, the staunch support of Christian and family values?  Trump is the most anti-Christian public figure in current memory.

    So what is it that drives the GOP voter? Well, Jim, your posting a photo of Obama with a bone through his nose is a clue.  And your constant bigoted indictment of Latino culture as inferior is another--while blithely ignoring the recent KKK and Jim Crow culture of your own state.  That you attribute the exodus of youth from rural America to merely seeking jobs (not fleeing an inferior culture), and the immigration here from Latin America due to cultural inferiority not seeking jobs, creates an interesting double standard that betrays your "cultural" bias.  

    In short, your posts here show that the GOP voter is often motivated by resistance to modernity and diversity, cultural resentment, and a raging inferiority complex.

    But as to "ideas,"  nope, don't see that coming from you.


    he asked about immigration (1.25 / 4) (#42)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 02:21:04 PM EST
    and you went off topic with the trump-putin-iran.

    for the record, im not fond of nato or the eu. pro-nato and pro-eu are social conservative and global-corporatist positions.

    it also seems rather odd to use "anti-christian" as a pejorative^  for trump when much criticism of him includes concern that he will appoint an anti-choice (christian) justice.

    ^a word expressing contempt or disapproval.


    FYI, I am pretty sure the readers of TL have a (5.00 / 6) (#43)
    by vml68 on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 02:38:37 PM EST
    pretty extensive vocabulary. No need for the constant word definitions.  If any of us are unsure of the meaning of a word,  we are capable of googling or looking it up in a dictionary.

    Uh, linea (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jondee on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:43:28 PM EST
    the Original topic, which Jim, perusual, fibbed about, was whether or not Trump was guilty of the very same actions Jim accused the Democrats of.

    If you're going to jump into other people's debate, you should at least take the trouble to trace it back to the beginning.


    ok (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 05:53:44 PM EST
    well, no. i didnt track it back to the beginning.
    im sorry.

    linea....Who did what (1.00 / 1) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 10:51:22 AM EST
    What the Left is currently doing is trying to change the results of an election. In this case our presidential election in which Trump won rather handily using the constitutionally dictated Electoral College count.

    They are all over TV and other media outlets urging state electors to disregard the direction of the state's voters. It is also reported that individual electors have been threatened if they vote for Trump.

    These are really third world country actions.

    What Hillary, via her supporters in '08 and Trump in 2012, did was use the birther issue to try and prevent a candidate from being nominated.

    That is politics. You have various groups trying to nominate a candidate, not change the results of a decided election.

    Their actions are very dangerous in today's world of cable news and social media because it brings out the nut cases. And yes, that happens with other issues but freedom of speech is a delicate thing to mess with.


    gee, jimakakkk, (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by leap on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 11:30:26 AM EST
    what are your thoughts about what the Republicans are doing in North Carolina???

    Never mind, we don't need to know and I won't read them anyway.


    Oh excuse me for answering (1.00 / 1) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 12:24:51 PM EST
    I thought I was responding to a rational human being.

    Silly old me.



    That's a very general question (none / 0) (#91)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 12:16:12 PM EST
    But I'll guess you're talking about the LGBT issue...

    I think that some on the Far Right have made an issue out of what was a non issue after being baited by the Far Left.

    No one really believed that some transgender would go crashing into the girls's bathroom wildly claiming their right to watch....

    It was politics. And it cost the Repubs a governorship and they got what they deserved.

    But it works both ways. The Far Left lost the presidential election for the Demos by their wild claims re Trump and their over the top claims re global warming, etc.

    BTW - Since you are a newbie...I have long posted my support for Gay Rights, including marriage, women's right to choose, LWOP, single payer health care and a redo of our drug laws.  


    Jim don't make the thread about you (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 12:24:37 PM EST
    get your own blog for that
    Move on from this thread

    jeralyn (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 12:33:28 PM EST
    You say this is an Open Thread with all topics welcome.

    I was answering a question from leap who was responding to my answer to linea re the electoral college issue/birther.


    Go check out his blog Tall Cotton (none / 0) (#98)
    by jondee on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 04:00:52 PM EST
    the one with the picture of Obama with a bone in his nose and of Uncle Sam with a gun marked "liberalism" in his mouth.

    Of course, he has long supported the Aryan Nations and militias opening their doors to gays and lesbians.


    Bu// $hit (none / 0) (#95)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 12:34:52 PM EST
    "Hillary" did no such thing in 2008.  A candidate is not responsible for the act of every supporter - assuming some if her supporters forwarded a birther email.  Trump himself DID push the wingnut birther CT, even doing so for years after it was disproven.  Moreover,  you keep ignoring the elephant in the room.  Trump calling for a "revolution" and March in Washington.  

    Then if Hillary isn't (none / 0) (#107)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 09:22:13 AM EST
    responsible for the actions of her supporters then Trump isn't for his.

    And yes, it has been proven that her supporters started the ball rolling.




    Hahahahahahahahaaaaa... (none / 0) (#111)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 09:50:51 AM EST
    A link to Breitbart as "proof"!

    It's like you're trying to be funny.  Let me know if you need links to REALLY  (factchecking) sources.   They've already debunked this stupid lie numerous times.

    BUT keep squirming while you try to ignore the fact that Trump called for a revolution - something YOU said was "treason".  :)


    Who appointed you (none / 0) (#47)
    by MKS on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:34:32 PM EST
    the topic police on this thread?  Something about the sun not shining and sticking it where.  Look it up.

    And, the anti-Christian point I was making was about hypocrisy, not the merits of Christianity vis-à-vis politics.


    im commenting (1.00 / 1) (#50)
    by linea on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:45:32 PM EST
    he criticized you for going off topic. you responded by going off topic. it was an observation. i didnt police anybody.

    your christian reference continues to elude me. christians aren't hypocrites?


    not worth it (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by MKS on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 04:04:34 PM EST
    And how do my simple statements (1.00 / 2) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 18, 2016 at 03:53:55 PM EST
    differ from the bill. Why not just say, "I agree," instead of referencing some bill??  Or is it that the bill doesn't really close the border??

    My insult of Obama was well deserved and merely matches what came from the Left on Bush and Reagan...If you can't stand the heat, don't come in the kitchen.

    And let us examine Trump and Russia from a "policy" viewpoint that you so want to use.

    For the sake of accuracy, it is worth noting what Trump actually says - and does not say - about Russia. He does not say that it is a wonderful place brimming with human rights and democracy, or that such things do not matter. "It's a very different system," he told NBC viewers before the presidential candidates' debate, "and I don't happen to like the system." Nor does he describe Putin as likeable, still less a friend. There is no suggestion that he has ever even spoken to him.

    What he says is that Putin exerts "strong control over his country" and "has been a leader... far more than our president has been a leader". In echoes of Margaret Thatcher's early appraisal of Mikhail Gorbachev, he believes he could do business with Putin and that he could secure a relationship that would be to mutual benefit. Even this, however - a classic "realist" approach to Russia - has landed him in enormous trouble.


    And the fact remains that people are flooding north, not south. That speaks. I love this.

    That you attribute the exodus of youth from rural America to merely seeking jobs (not fleeing an inferior culture), and the immigration here from Latin America due to cultural inferiority not seeking jobs, creates an interesting double standard that betrays your "cultural" bias.

    Totally inaccurate. My point was entirely that the Southern European culture, transferred to Mexico and "Latin America," did not create a free society and did not create a job creating economy.

    And from a jobs view point, that is inferior.

    But if you want to bring in  male dominance, treatment of minorities, etc., etc. don't blame me.

    And within the US, while people gave left various sections at various times, it was to do to another part of America where the economy was better.

    And to further show that you do not understand, you wrote this.

    Trump is the most anti-Christian public figure in current memory.

    His strong support  shows that this claim of this being the "Bible Belt....home of Evangelicals...racism...sexism..." is 30 years out of date. But don't feel bad, Hillary and her water carriers didn't understand either.


    NEWS (none / 0) (#102)
    by linea on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 08:27:26 PM EST
    Russian envoy to Turkey assasinated
    The gunman, wearing a suit and tie and shouting "Alahu Akbar," attacked the ambassador at a photo exhibition.

    NEWS (none / 0) (#103)
    by linea on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 08:30:23 PM EST
    Truck rams into German Christmas market, killing 12 people
    A truck rammed into a crowded Christmas market in central Berlin on Monday evening, killing 12 people and injuring nearly 50 as it smashed through tables and wooden stands

    The new normal (5.00 / 1) (#104)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 09:05:08 PM EST
    witness told the Guardian that the truck hit the market at speed. "It was not an accident. The truck was going 40mph. It was in the middle of a square, there are main roads either side, [where it could have come from]. But it showed no sign of slowing down," said Emma Rushton, a British tourist.

    updates (none / 0) (#105)
    by linea on Mon Dec 19, 2016 at 09:11:32 PM EST

    White House condemns `what appears to have been a terrorist attack'

    Police are due to hold a press conference at 1pm on Tuesday (noon GMT).


    This is the best article on why Hillary lost (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 09:57:11 AM EST
    that I have seen. Here's a sample. I urge you to read the whole article.

    More amazingly, did she really understand that she was planning to run for the American presidency? Based on what the Clinton Foundation did with its funds, it sure looks like the job she wanted was secretary general of the United Nations. The Clinton Foundation does excellent life-saving work in places such as Haiti, Colombia, Peru, Malawi, El Salvador, Rwanda and Tanzania, but it appears to do very little in the USA. Since Clinton's goal was the American presidency, more high-profile projects in places such as West Virginia or Flint, Mich., would have helped disadvantaged Americans and created real connections in communities where Clinton needed them.

    LOL (none / 0) (#113)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 09:59:58 AM EST
    It's not an article. Its an OPINION piece. ROTFLMAO.

    Define artice (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 10:16:58 AM EST
    a piece of writing included with others in a newspaper, magazine, or other publication.
    "an article about middle-aged executives"

    synonyms:    report, account, story, write-up, feature, item, piece, column, review, commentary
    "an article in the paper"


    Hope the floor was clean.


    Did Vladimir (none / 0) (#118)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 10:26:21 AM EST
    wipe up the floor for you? Naw, I know the answer. You were too busy wiping up the floor for Vladimir and saying yes, sir, Vladimir, I'll do whatever you want Vladimir.

    Heh, heh, heh ... (none / 0) (#115)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 10:10:51 AM EST
    I took your advice and "kept reading" the opinion piece.   Perhaps you should have:
    In my opinion, Donald Trump (relative to Clinton) has bigger conflicts of interest, is even more clueless about most Americans' lives, appears to be a compulsive liar, and will likely be a disastrous president. Trump also managed to get a free ride from some of the news media, appealed to the worst in Americans, and benefited from Russian interference in our election.

    I read it all (none / 0) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 10:19:07 AM EST
    and have no problem with the author's criticism of Trump.

    As for your's...well, you are still in denial.


    Interesting (4.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 10:29:31 AM EST
    Good to know you're "okay with" a compulsive liar who appealled to the worst in Americans and benefited from Russian interference,  not to mention one who called for a "revolution", something you said was "treason".

    That's not the least bit surprising.


    Jim is easy to understand. (2.00 / 1) (#120)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 10:58:08 AM EST
    He'll do whatever Vladimir tells him to do just like Trump. You see Vladimir is promoting white supremacy and his goals dovetail with Jim's goals. So in order to accomplish his goals Jim is willing to accede to what Vladimir wants.

    Why do I have a nagging, sneaky suspician (none / 0) (#122)
    by jondee on Tue Dec 20, 2016 at 01:41:35 PM EST
    you didn't read the entire article before linking to it?

    It's just so completely un-Jim for you to EVER link to any piece of writing that's so brutal toward your own favored candidate..