Multiple Shooters Suspected in San Bernadino Killings

Police say more than one shooter reportedly fled the scene of today's shooting at a social service center in San Bernadino. The police chief just confirmed 14 deaths and 14 injuries. The information they have now is there were three attackers.

Sgt. Vicki Cervantes, a San Bernardino police spokeswoman, told reporters at the scene that up to three shooters were believed to be involved in the attack inside the Inland Regional Center.... heavily armed and were possibly wearing body armor.

Police also detonated a device inside the building. Was there a bomb? Police say they don't know.

The FBI Assistant Director is on the scene and says it is too soon to say if it is a terrorist incident. The police chief downplays the holiday party rumor, although he said most of those shot were in one place.

The police chief says the shooters came prepared, were well equipped and were "on a mission." They had "long-guns" not handguns. [More...]

They are concerned with securing the scene and making sure everyone is safe, not tracking down the attackers right now.

All public buildings and schools in San Bernadino are now on lockdown.

< Mass Shooting In San Bernardino, California | Media Misidentifies Riverside Shooter >
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    The New York Daily News pulls no punches (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by CoralGables on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 09:13:45 PM EST
    Wow (5.00 / 4) (#22)
    by MO Blue on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 09:45:43 PM EST
    Those are strong words. Good for the NY Daily News.

    BBC opening states the sad truth (5.00 / 2) (#104)
    by MO Blue on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 04:47:29 PM EST
    The BBC opened its coverage of the ongoing San Bernardino mass shooting Wednesday evening by acknowledging a fairly alarming reality: "Just another day in the United States of America, another day of gunfire, panic, and fear."

    This is reality and it is also how the world views the USA.


    Obama and Clinton (3.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Redbrow on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:12:24 AM EST
    Both offered prayers to the victims of islamic terrorism in France.

    I guess innocent Americans are not worthy.

    Better to organize a prayer shaming and push political agenda while the blood of the victims is still warm.


    I think you missed the main point (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:31:12 AM EST
    all the right-wing is offering as protection from crazy people with guns is prayer -- and more guns.

    Well CAIR just offered prayers for victims (3.50 / 4) (#33)
    by Redbrow on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:37:45 AM EST
    But I did not see Kos or the other progressive parrots bashing them and prayer-shaming them like they did christians, so I will stick with my original asessment.

    Political opportunism and intolerance at its uglisest.


    It's not the prayers and the christianity (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 03:20:50 AM EST
    that they're bashing, it's the fact that some self-proclaimed christians are being hypocritical by claiming to deplore violence while at the same time doing the bidding of the gun lobby.

    What law do you propose (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Redbrow on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:24:12 PM EST
    Would have stopped them?

    No gun sales to first or second generation muslim immigrants?

    Or just trample all american's constitutional rights and ban all guns except for the ruling class and their enforcers?


    Why Does a Law Have to Apply... (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:20:16 PM EST
    ...to a specific news story, is that the new republican rule ?  What if the law reduces gun deaths of innocent people, is that not enough, is it a requirement that it stop a very specific situation in order to be enacted ?

    Registering a gun and requiring a background check on all gun sales is hardly trampling on anything but some right wing imaginary right that does not exist.

    We already trample on your 'right' to own an automatic weapon, why isn't anyone whining about that, or the right to own a nuclear arm, which the constitution clearly states as a right.

    Wanting some accountability from the people who own things that kill people is the norm, guns are the exception.  You want to drive a car, you take a test and get licensed, you want to use dynamite for an application, you get certified and the purchases are tracked, you want to fly a plane, which is infinitely safer than owning a gun, you must complete a serious process.  

    Things that endanger the public are regulated because that is how you try to ensure people who have nothing to do with anything don't get harmed by others actions.

    There is no valid reason not to regulate firearms and insisting that violates any right is simply not true in any sense.  It's gun industry propaganda and only a simpleton would equate regulation with banning.


    None of what you stated (1.33 / 3) (#107)
    by Redbrow on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 05:50:50 PM EST
    Would have prevented this terror attack.

    And nice ad hominem. Simpleton.

    Just like the progressive authoritarian orwellian newspeak "coomon sense gun laws" - because of course any "simpleton" who dares object has no "common sense."


    I Clearly Mentioned... (5.00 / 3) (#113)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 06:31:22 PM EST
    ...that we don't enact laws to prevent any specific situation.  Read slower, then you won't have to repeat what I already wrote.

    You are good at repeating others, where you seem to run into problems is actually addressing the comment rather than repeating old and tired talking points.

    I would prefer you actually read and reply to my comment and not repeat the same thing, again and again.

    Not to point out the obvious, but objecting to common sense is exactly what a simpleton would do, so by all means, object away...


    Deep thoughts (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 05:59:51 PM EST
    From a guy who parrots bullsh!t internet memes like "prayer shaming"

    This Deserves an Award (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 07:24:26 PM EST
    progressive authoritarian orwellian newspeak

    For taking a word form each talking point and putting them all together into a cluster F of right wing lunacy.

    Big Brother/authoritarians love guns, must have guns, and would not exist without guns, so stop laying that BS at the feet of people who do not want more guns killing more people.



    "Prayer shaming" is merely ... (none / 0) (#124)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:26:59 PM EST
    ... noting the painfully obvious, which is that those politicians who constantly offer their "thoughts and prayers" to the families of the deceased, are likely too busy patronizing the victims of gun violence to bother themselves with either thinking about the root cause of this plague, or praying for the wisdom and courage to actually do something meaningful to address the problem.

    So, Redbrow.. (none / 0) (#109)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 06:07:38 PM EST
    are there ANY forms of firearm regulation that you don't object to and consider sensible?

    Serious question.


    what I thought (none / 0) (#176)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 02:26:30 PM EST
    God God... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:47:07 AM EST
    .. speaking of 'push political agenda while the blood of the victims is still warm.', what exactly is purpose of your post ?

    Walking/thinking & chewing gum at same time (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:31:31 AM EST
    Guess what, Redbrow? It is possible to do two things, two tasks at the same time.  Congress should be able to do likewise ... and, move quickly to the job of Congress, which is to legislate for the good of the public.  

    Bravo for the NY Daily News .. blunt, yes. But, they are saying what many are thinking and now openly saying.  I pray; and, I've prayed for help for us all in these days of increasing violence in our country.  Remember, tho, I'm not a Congressperson ... whose job is to act, to legislate in the people's interest to keep us safe.  As a person who is able to write comments, Redbrow, you certainly have the ability to think as well as write and pray.  Unless Paul Ryan wants to join a monastery, he should recognize his job under the Constitution and leave the congressional chaplain to his duties as well.

    BTW, there is another familiar saying here that should ring true ... that should help Congress exercise their foremost legislative branch responsibility: "God helps those who help themselves." Even more apropos would be the biblical Letter from St. James speaking to the virtues & need for "Acts."


    So, do you imagine that neither (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Anne on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:57:13 AM EST
    Obama nor Clinton care about the victims of this most recent tragedy?  

    Do you think the Republicans care more because they did the thoughts-and-prayers thing?  I have no doubt they do have sympathy, and that they do say prayers for these victims, but so what?  The question is, what are they doing to make it less likely that events like this will keep happening?

    And the answer is that they are essentially shrugging their shoulders and acting as if there is nothing else they can do - and that, Redbrow, is utter BS.

    They don't want to do anything the NRA opposes - and they also don't want to expand access to mental health care; they shake their heads and talk about "troubled souls," as if there is no help for them, nothing that could have been done to prevent a sick person with a gun from acting out.

    For that matter, they don't want to do anything that will help improve the quality of the lives of the least among us. And then they wonder why people are driven to desperation.  

    There is so much violent death and killing in this country that you could spend all your time extending sympathy to the families of victims.  And we'd still have all this death - it changes nothing.  

    It's time to end these cheap platitudes that have become as meaningless as those flag pins people have been guilted and shamed into wearing.


    Yeah, (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 09:20:46 PM EST
    the whole prayer thing is getting shopworn after so many mass murders.

    Perhaps (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:55:08 AM EST
    If everyone prayed for me to read all the comments before duplicating them.

    As I did below.   Still, almost worth repeating.


    Some things are worthy of duplication (none / 0) (#62)
    by CoralGables on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:26:00 PM EST
    The NYDaily News reaches (none / 0) (#23)
    by christinep on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 09:55:56 PM EST
    a lot of people beyond NYC.  For example, I always remember a couple of uncles--living in central PA--who subscribed, mostly to read the sports news in a compact version.  Pennsylvania and my Coal Region relatives are no strangers to guns...especially for hunting. In my somewhat slanted opinion, Pennsylvanians have common sense. If I'm guessing right, the front page of the News probably says what a lot of people are thinking at this point.

    Good for the Daily News.  


    The idea (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by TeresaInSnow2 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:19:54 AM EST
    that more gun control would keep evil mass murders from getting guns is laughable.

    AK47s are banned in California.  I saw an article where it took 2 hours to get an illegal AK47 in California.

    This would be tunnel vision thinking.

    Probably one of the best steps to preventing this kind of thing is stop glamorizing it on TV.  

    I think we all recognize and agree (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by CST on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:23:15 AM EST
    That having a state law against these kinds of weapons is not effective.

    I'm afraid... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:00:48 PM EST
    a federal ban would be just about as ineffective...see federally prohibited drugs.

    All them Fast & Furious weapons we sold to the cartels would be reimported right quick.  Plus side would be the weapons would drastically increase in price, negative side would be we lose what little "gun control" we have now.

    You can't beat it on the supply side, you must beat it on the demand side.  How do we get people to stop wanting to arm themselves to the teeth?  To stop seeking out ownership of weapons of mass destruction? I think that's the question we need to answer, if there is an answer.  


    it's a lot harder (none / 0) (#58)
    by CST on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:23:51 PM EST
    to manufacture, transport, and hide guns than it is to manufacture, transport, and hide drugs.  When you factor in addiction and money and desire for them - the comparison isn't that close.  Way more people want drugs than assault weapons.

    That being said, we may have already crossed a tipping point so to speak in terms of number of assault weapons already in this country, and it might be somewhat fruitless to stop selling them now.  But to argue that the laws can't be effective at all because the state laws aren't effective is not a particularly compelling argument, IMO.


    The tipping point... (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:42:17 PM EST
    Agree with you there, with millions upon millions of firearms of all stripes in circulation, there's no getting rid of them absent some lunatic "round 'em up" proposal a la Donald Trump.  We're stuck with them.

    As for smuggling, a shipping container is a shipping container...you can fit alotta AK's in a shipping container, and if there is money in it smugglers will be on it like white on rice.  Wasn't easy to smuggle kegs of rum either during prohibition, but the rum runners did it.  The demand won't be as high as for booze or dope, but in America there is certainly a strong demand for weapons...I think that's where any efforts would be best spent, attacking demand, especially considering the strong and moneyed opposition to any additional gun control legislation.


    We Already Know... (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:01:17 PM EST
    ...banning assault rifles works, maybe not 100%, but infinitely better than drugs or booze.  We have a small history and there was never a huge market because we didn't ban all guns, just one particular group.  It also stopped the manufacturing of them here.  Uzi's have been banned, and you hardly here about them anymore, there is a black market, but come on it's not weed, you got to have a little hair on your peaches to go black gun market with a pocket full of cash.

    Also I don't believe an AK semi-automatic is technically an assault rifle, the auto versions are.  They are not fun to shoot, but they are reliable and that is why soldiers/armies like them.  Enthusiasts, not so much.

    My beef with the making drugs illegal is because use only damages the user, it's a personal matter.  With guns, that is not true, they are designed to kill, that is the function they serve. I want laws in place for things that hurt other people.

    Using your logic they should just make human trafficking legal because they will never decrease the supply and they aren't very good at stopping it.  Somethings should be banned because they hurt the other people.

    Guns and drugs are not interchangeable products in any discussion IMO.  The idea that demand is the same for a consumable and personal property is simply not true.

    I promise you if we put the funds into gun regulation and enforcement that we put into the war on drugs, death by guns would be drastically reduced in no time.


    If you want something else (none / 0) (#99)
    by Zorba on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:52:39 PM EST
    to worry about, Kdog, you can fit a small nuclear device in a shipping container.  They're not physically inspected when they come into our port cities.  And we have a lot of port cities.

    And performing an act of sabotage (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 03:23:38 PM EST
    at a chemical plant to create a Bhopal-like disaster..

    That, too (none / 0) (#102)
    by Zorba on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 04:24:43 PM EST
    Not to mention biological warfare.

    Exactly (none / 0) (#145)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:13:51 AM EST
    A large number of the guns on the streets of Chicago are coming right out of Alabama. Alabama is literally running guns. There is a silk road of guns walking out of Alabama.

    It's oddly haunting to me that this state is still making riches from helping create a fight for survival for black lives.


    In gun deaths per capita (none / 0) (#158)
    by CoralGables on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 10:25:34 AM EST
    Illinois isn't in the hunt.

    1 Alaska
    2 Louisiana
    3 Alabama
    4 Mississippi
    5 Wyoming

    The places where guns are most available.


    Not talking about Illinois, talking about Chicago (none / 0) (#160)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 11:45:25 AM EST
    And Spike Lee isn't stupid. He wouldn't make a film titled Chiraq if nothing much was going on there.

    Chicago (none / 0) (#162)
    by CoralGables on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 11:48:49 AM EST
    isn't in the top ten per capita for cities last I looked according to FBI stats.

    Perhaps (none / 0) (#164)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 12:06:08 PM EST
    Maybe a clearer picture here? Statistics can be like bikinis. You see a lot but some really important things can be hidden by them :)

    When I peek under the 2013 bikini (none / 0) (#165)
    by CoralGables on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 12:48:39 PM EST
    I find the place with the highest murder rate per capita was Renegade, Tennessee where 1 out of every 10 residents were murdered.

    Okay, Spike Lee has no clue what (none / 0) (#178)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 03:03:44 PM EST
    He's talking about, only you.

    Spike is making a movie (none / 0) (#180)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 03:17:03 PM EST
    About black on black crime.  Could be Chicago is the worst place for that.   But blacks are 12% of the population.

    Pockets of illegal guns are involved too (none / 0) (#182)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 07:06:33 PM EST
    Many of them coming out of Alabama.

    And the funneling of guns (none / 0) (#161)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 11:47:13 AM EST
    Directly from Alabama onto the streets of Chicago is fairly well documented now.

    How about more gun control (5.00 / 3) (#53)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:05:52 PM EST
    more help for the mentally unstable, AND less glorification of violence?

    A multi-pronged wholistic approach..

    Even a little child knows that the best way to deal with the violently unstable and fanatics ISN'T to put a weapon in their hands and then a weapon in your hands.


    This just in: Laws do not prevent crime (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:08:27 PM EST
    AK47s are banned in California.  I saw an article where it took 2 hours to get an illegal AK47 in California.

    Give me a thousand dollars and immunity from prosecution, and I'll get you a live grenade.

    Laws against bank robbery do not prevent bank robberies.  

    The death penalty obviously does not prevent murder.  

    I don't see anyone saying we shouldn't have laws against bank robbery or murder simply because those laws do not prevent those acts.

    Properly enforced, laws put criminals out of the criminal business for a while.  Combined with rehabilitation, prison gives a former criminal lawful options, which is the best outcome society can expect.


    An slightly ot aside.. (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:23:57 PM EST
    the big banks, corporations, and yes, gun makers just L-O-V-E that libertarian "it's up to indivuals" philosophy..

    It plays so into their hands it's like a gift from on high..


    How about an NATIONAL ban (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:16:07 PM EST
    on all assault-style weapons, universal background checks, mental health screening, and the closing of all gun show loopholes?

    Oh the humanity! We can't have that!
    Think of the Founding Fathers!

    It'd be like blowing Lincoln and Hamilton's heads off all over again!


    The terrorists used illegal firearms (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Redbrow on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:52:56 PM EST
    Dailymail posted photos of the AR15s used by the muslim terrorists.

    It clearly showed 30 round magazines were used which makes them illegal firearms.

    It also appears that the rifles do no contain the CA required "bullet button" meant to slow down the ability to load and requires a tool to operate.

    This also make it an illegal firearm.

    Funny how criminal and terrorists disregard gun laws and the media spin is that "they were purchased legally".

    It is a felony to alter firearms or possess altered firearms as these terrorists did.

    Funny? (5.00 / 2) (#131)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:09:07 PM EST
    Funny how criminal and terrorists disregard gun laws

    Funny how bank robbers disregard bank robbery laws.

    Funny how murderers disregard laws against murder.

    Funny how Bernie Madoff disregarded financial laws.

    You know what would be funny?  IF A CRIMINAL DIDN'T BREAK THE LAW.  Because then he wouldn't be a criminal, would he?

    Your ability to detect the obvious is stunning.


    Good point (none / 0) (#137)
    by Redbrow on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 12:06:42 AM EST
    Obama should make "common sense" criminal laws.

    That would solve everything..


    What Your Post Proves... (none / 0) (#156)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 09:37:31 AM EST
    ...is that is way too easy to get a gun and/or and modify it in America, that our gun laws are not working.

    The parts and instructions are available at gun shows.  Perfect reason to close that loophole and make the sale of parts to illegall.

    So far everything you have posted is pointing out flaws in the system that need to rectified, and yet you keep insisting no laws are needed.

    Please name a law on the books that 'solves everything'.  Your ridiculousness is only topped by your juvenile views of law.


    as we might think:
    They appeared to have tried to modify one of the rifles to be fully automatic, a senior law enforcement source told NBC News on Thursday. The modification failed, the source said.

    Just as an aside (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by ragebot on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:08:44 PM EST
    weapons like the M14A which is a fully automatic weapon, and later the M16A, again a fully automatic weapon are not the most common weapons issued in the US military.  Same goes for the even less common light machine guns.

    More important is the US military trains its soldiers to fire these automatic weapons in two to three shot bursts with a break in between.  During WWII there were real problems with light machine guns heating up if too many rounds went through them and the barrel getting so hot it warped.  In fact some machine gun teams carried extra barrels and would switch them out.  Not to mention the M1917 Browning heavy machine gun which was water cooled (that was one of the reasons it was so heavy, that was a joke so don't get upset).

    Point is that fire arms get hot after you shoot them, and the more you shoot them the hotter they get.  As a rule a run of the mill long gun like a M14 or M16 should probably rest of half an hour after going through a 30 round clip, depending on the ambient temperature.

    There are basically three levels of ARs (the long guns the shooters used).  Commercial grade is the lowest grade, then military grade, then custom grade.  The S&W and DPMS used by the shooters are at the low end of the military grade (military grade simply means the design is standardized so mags, receivers, and barrels can be switched out.  Modifying any of these semi-automatic weapons to fully automatic only makes things like over heating and jamming more likely, not to mention the possibility of damaging the weapon so it will not function.  The modification itself is most easily done by replacing the lower receiver, hammer, and trigger with the fully automatic version.  Thing is you need a class 3 ticket to buy them, so some folks try and DIY with machine tools and usually fail unless they are very good.


    Right on. I don't know any details about (none / 0) (#186)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Sat Dec 05, 2015 at 10:17:55 AM EST
    the modification Farook tried, but my guess is a failed DIY job.

    Lavinia Johnson, the center's executive director, told Reuters that a county personnel holiday party, possibly for the Department of Health, had been scheduled at the conference area.

    A police spokeswoman told Reuters the center had been hosting an event when more than one gunman burst into the room and began firing.

    According to San Bernardino officials, ... (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 05:44:28 PM EST
    ... two of the suspects have been apprehended and one has been killed in a shootout with police and CHP officers.

    Some reports (none / 0) (#3)
    by ragebot on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 06:16:49 PM EST
    from one of the victims that someone in an environmental health services meeting where people were shot (and killed) claims one of the shooters was attending the meeting and for some reason (not yet clear) got upset, left the meeting and returned with two other shooters and started shooting.  Seems like there may have been some pre planning given that shooters returned quickly dressed and armed for combat.

    Seems like there is not really a political motivation, rather just a few folks upset with a decision at a government meeting.

    update (none / 0) (#4)
    by ragebot on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 06:23:21 PM EST
    seems like it was a holiday party, not meeting at environmental health services.  Still not clear what connection the person (or persons) had with environmental health services or what set the person (or persons) off.

    Oh, (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 06:24:53 PM EST
    this obviously was well thought out and planned. I seriously doubt that someone got upset and then all of a sudden came back with some friends.

    My point (none / 0) (#6)
    by ragebot on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 06:49:40 PM EST
    was not that there was no pre planning.

    Rather that one of the shooters was attending(not clear if he was invited) the party, left, and then returned dressed and armed for combat.

    Not sure I would say it was well thought out, since anything like this (at least in my mind) implies there was a lack of thought.

    What I can't figure out is how someone could get two other warm bodies to so quickly join them.

    I am just guessing but it almost seems like some type of love triangle situation.


    Well (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 07:03:11 PM EST
    right now it looks like domestic terrorism. Usually in a love triangle one person comes in and shoots the couple. The story about the person being upset just does not fit the facts that we know so far. And frankly eye witnesses under duress have been known to be unreliable.

    Still lots of unanswered questions (none / 0) (#10)
    by ragebot on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 07:09:43 PM EST
    I don't like the term domestic terrorism and think it is overused.  As fishcamp pointed out there are lots of rough characters who have no issue acting in a very violent manner.

    I still remember Altamont which was sad but definitely not domestic terrorism.


    Of course (none / 0) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 07:26:33 PM EST
    you don't like the term domestic terrorism. Most conservatives don't like it because it's mostly perpetrated by conservatives.

    But frankly just terrorism is the word I prefer for it all.

    This is not some people that just went off with a gun. These people obviously had some plan. Does your average Hell's Angel wear those kinds protective gear? So far it appears to be terrorism from what we know. There may be facts forthcoming that change that.


    The police (none / 0) (#14)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 07:50:02 PM EST
    reported that there was a person who got mad at the party and left but they don't have any evidence that that person is one of the shooters.

    Apparently they were covered in gear. So it seems their faces were covered.


    San Bernadino has always been (none / 0) (#7)
    by fishcamp on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 06:57:24 PM EST
    A rough place.  When I was shooting that Hells Angels film in SF, in the early 70's, I thought the Oakland chapter had the baddest apples due to Sonny Barger, but it turned out the 'Berdo chapter were the most criminal.  I'm not saying the Angels had anything to do with this latest horror, but San Bernadino is not a good place.  Just say'in.

    Good point (none / 0) (#9)
    by ragebot on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 07:05:35 PM EST
    While it is all to easy to say crazies, right wing nut cases, left wing bozos, or ISIS terrorists are the shooters the fact of the matter is most of the shooters in the US are gang related drive by shootings, often to secure territory for drug sales.  Something the Hell's Angles, the Outlaws, and other MC gangs seem to be involved in on a regular basis.

    San Bernadino is much more (none / 0) (#11)
    by caseyOR on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 07:24:54 PM EST
    tame these days. As the cost of housing pushed families further east looking for affordable homes, the area changed with the times. Yes, there are bad sections, but it is nothing like it was in the 70s.

    Also, this happened in some kind of office park. I heard it described as a campus. Hardly the bad part of town.


    ... by the Great Recession, and it's yet to even begin to recover. Whatever socio-economic improvement the city had realized since the 1970s has been pretty much wiped out. The city government has declared Chapter 9 bankruptcy, rendering San Bernardino the largest municipality in the country to ever undertake that step. City services have been slashed to the bone (including the police and fire departments), unemployment is over twice the statewide average, median household income is 48% that of the state as a whole, and 35% of all city residents live at or below the federal poverty line.

    San Bernardino is the poorest city in California.


    LA Times (none / 0) (#13)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 07:47:37 PM EST
    the shooters are one female and one male and resided in Redlands, CA.

    What we know (none / 0) (#15)
    by TrevorBolder on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 07:53:30 PM EST
    Around 11 a.m., at least one shooter opened fire in San Bernardino at the Inland Regional Center, a facility that serves people with developmental disabilities.
    Preliminary numbers: At least 14 people were killed and 17 wounded, San Bernardino police said.
    Police said there were one to three assailants, who were heavily armed and possibly wearing body armor.
    After a car chase, two suspects were killed by police -- one male and one female. Authorities did not provide a description or status of a third suspect.  
    There is a possibility that the shooting was an act of terrorism, an FBI official said.
    The FBI is taking a leadership role in the investigation after allegations that at least one suspect threw explosives.

    They've determined (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 08:05:28 PM EST
    that what was thrown was not explosives however they did find suspicious things in the building that are being checked out.

    There were two assailants at the scene and one was later chased from a residence in Redlands. They are not sure about the third one if there is any involvement as of now. The house in Redlands is being searched for evidence.


    A man and a woman connected (none / 0) (#17)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 08:53:25 PM EST
    A man and a woman connected to a mass shooting that left 14 people dead and 17 wounded in San Bernardino were killed in a firefight with police officers after a car chase Wednesday, authorities said.

    Two law enforcement sources identified one of the deceased suspects as Syed Farook, an American citizen.

    Public records show a person named Syed R. Farook was employed by the San Bernardino county health department as an environmental health specialist, but it was not clear if that was the same person involved in the shooting.

    The identity of the second person killed by police was not immediately known.

    very sorry to hear that two suspects were killed (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Peter G on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 10:05:16 PM EST
    Not just because it is better not to kill people in general, and much better if the police can arrest rather than execute, but also because we are far less likely to find out what really happened if the doers are deceased.

    I have yet to (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by NYShooter on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 11:15:16 PM EST
    see, read, or hear a plausible explanation why our scientific community has not developed, or, been able to develop, a technique which would/could render a targeted person immobile, yet, alive.

    Anyone, please?


    Tranquilizers like they use on tigers.. (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 11:20:54 PM EST
    I've asking that question for years.

    The tranquilizers (5.00 / 2) (#112)
    by Zorba on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 06:30:33 PM EST
    shot from the guns don't take effect instantaneously. The targeted person would still have time to get off a few shots if they have a gun.  They may be feeling a bit loopy, but could still kill somebody.
    Clearly, what the police need are phasers set to stun- that didn't seem to kill anyone in Star Trek, after all.

    Mostly because the animals don't shoot (none / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 06:15:47 PM EST
    Says the reponsible gun owner (none / 0) (#111)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 06:24:58 PM EST
    who blasted his neighbor's pet pig with a shot gun.

    I wish they did.


    What??? (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by shoephone on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:18:01 PM EST
    I never heard about that one. FFS. Shouldn't be surprising, however, considering that he thinks it's perfectly fine to kill children that are used as human shields...after all, at that point they're not innocent children anymore, they're just "things" to be taken out. And he started his career as a killer at age 7, taking out birds with a slingshot. Ya know, for fun.

    Pet pigs, birds, children...they all just meld into one thing after awhile: the enemy.


    shoe, let me ask you (1.00 / 2) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:38:29 PM EST
    If an enemy attacked America and then placed children around their bases.......

    What would you do?

    I think I know.

    You'd surrender.

    "Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accept the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay-and claims a halo for his dishonesty." - Heinlein

    Sleep well tonight, shoe. Hard men are making hard decisions to protect you.

    But isn't being scared spit less bothersome??


    As is often the case (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by shoephone on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:53:21 PM EST
    your comment makes no sense.

    Jim (5.00 / 2) (#140)
    by FlJoe on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 05:58:53 AM EST
    If an enemy attacked AmeriKKKa and then placed children around their bases.......
    there, fixed it for you.

    The very fact that you could even conceive of that  straw scenario shows your abject cowardice. What would you do Jim? You obviously disdain surrender so sacrificing the children would be your choice.

    Sleep well tonight as you dream of throwing babies to the wolves to save your sorry ass. You are more cowardly in your bravado then any pacifist I have ever known.


    The answer of course is that he (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:23:01 AM EST
    doesn't really know what he would do because all he knows about wars is what he read in Starship Troopers.

    FlJoe sometimes I have had some hope for (none / 0) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 07:49:20 AM EST
    you but your "AmerkKKA" spells out what you think of the country.

    It is sad to see someone who has been given everything by a society and a country show such disrespect.

    But I am glad you have outed yourself.


    Perhaps (none / 0) (#142)
    by FlJoe on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 07:58:21 AM EST
    I am a scumbag, but at least I am not a Kowardly Keyboard Kommando like yourself.

    Yeah (none / 0) (#121)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:22:48 PM EST
    he was bragging about it here awhile back.

    Appalling, to say the least. (none / 0) (#123)
    by shoephone on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:24:36 PM EST
    Said pig was destroying my garden (1.00 / 3) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:32:41 PM EST
    But hey! He wasn't wasted. He made BBQ!

    You're a textbook sociopath (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by shoephone on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:54:42 PM EST
    Let me explain something to (1.00 / 2) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 07:59:30 AM EST
    you city boys and girls.

    Like many Red States TN has a fence law. That means that animals that belong to you are responsible for all damage they do to others' property.

    I bet you have never raised your own vegetables and certainly never slaughtered your own meat.... And if you went fishing you had to have someone else bait your hook...lol.

    That scares me because we are facing a threat in which it is kill or be killed. You remind of what Jews must have been like before Hitler started  rounding them up and herding off them to be killed.


    I've done both, Billy Bob (5.00 / 2) (#144)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:12:10 AM EST
    and like most people that subscribe to most of the long-established rules of civilised scociety, I would've gotten the animal out of the garden and contacted the owners.

    And (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:21:25 AM EST
    Living in the country as I do we deal with this all the time.   I've had cows in my yard eating the landscaping.   Dogs in my garbage.   Happens all the time.   Let me predict that when ppj finally snaps and makes the evening news that pig story, if true, will be one the neighbors tell the press.

    If he did that in my neighborhood he would get his ass kicked.   If he was lucky.   And yes we have fence laws.  


    One more (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:25:04 AM EST
    Last summer the neighbors goats got in my brothers garden, yes, gasp, he grows vegetables.   He called the neighbor and helped him round them up and put the back where the belonged.

    My grandfather (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:34:42 AM EST
    had cattle and they at one time figured out how to open the gate. So in the middle of the night they opened the gate and walked into town and stood in the middle of the highway. Somebody called him and told him his cows were in the middle of the road and he came and got them.

    Now I guess if it had been Jim that found them he would have just shot them and had some free steaks for his trouble.


    I can see the headline now.. (none / 0) (#151)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:35:59 AM EST
    10 year old trick-or-treater dressed like Bin Laden shot by shut-in..

    Or, 10 year old (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 09:44:19 AM EST
    neighbor shot because he was taking vegetables from the garden, and crushing some of the plants.

    The 10 year old (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by CoralGables on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 10:29:15 AM EST
    doesn't even have to be in a costume on Halloween. If the person behind the child looks scary the child is just collateral damage.

    Or (none / 0) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:46:06 AM EST
    Dressed like Porky Pig

    That's so metrosexual of you (none / 0) (#146)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 08:16:12 AM EST
    Also, the Jews.?!

    Yeah, the Jews certainly never faced any problems or state persecution before Hitler.  Holy hell.


    Which just goes to show how little (5.00 / 4) (#154)
    by Anne on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 09:18:34 AM EST
    attention you pay to the comments people have been posting here for years.

    Shoephone is an inveterate gardener, not just growing vegetables, but working in a garden center - I think she knows a little something about the trials and tribulations of gardening of any kind.

    She is also Jewish, something she has certainly made no secret of, which makes your comment particularly offensive.  

    As if you would even have a clue what "the Jews" were like before Hitler rounded them up...

    Many of us garden, fish, hunt, have cleaned and prepared fish, have butchered deer and dressed out rabbits and birds.  Many of us live in areas where people have livestock of some sort - cows, pigs, sheep, horses - and have helped corral them when loose and not taken the opportunity to make dinner out of someone else's property.

    What this means is that we have a respect for living things, for the earth, that you don't seem to share or understand.  You don't see the point in helping out your fellow travelers as much as you seem to want to profit in some way while getting back at them.  This does not surprise anyone.

    The list of your hatreds is long; no point in denying that, not when you have that lovely blog where people can see for themselves just how deep and ugly that hatred is.

    No one's making anything up, jim, or "lying about your record," we just pay attention to people's words, we remember what people write.

    Your "lols" are not so much revealing of any humor that resides within you, as much as they are meant to soften and disguise the ugliness we all know is there.

    Someone with education and training in psychology could perhaps explain why someone would persist in hanging out in a place where he was pretty much universally reviled; maybe somewhere in that shriveled soul of yours, you hate yourself so much you desperately want to convert others to your sad and ugly way of looking at the world.

    It's not working.


    Let me explain something to YOU (5.00 / 3) (#163)
    by shoephone on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 12:05:23 PM EST
    Mr. Sociopath. As Anne pointed out, I'm not only a longtime gardener (of a whole lot more than just vegetables) I work in the garden nursery industry. So, yeah, I know a little something about that world. Furthermore, I started fishing with my dad when I was five years old, and can very well bait my own hook, as well as clean my own catch.

    So much for your false bravado on all that.

    But the more important point here is about you and your need to claim your property line at threat of violence. That says everything anyone needs to know about you. You look for an excuse to use your violence. And guarding your territory is a pretty easy excuse.

    Most people have fences between their yards. Where I live now there is no fencing, but I also live outside the city in a wildlife area. I have coyotes and deer and rabbits coming through my yard during different parts of the year. Do I need to kill them? No, I do not. AS someone who works in the industry, I can assure you there are non-violent, non-toxic ways of dealing with those things. Same is true for dogs occasionally digging, or cats occasionally using my flower bed as a litter box. See Jim, there are these products called "non-toxic repellents" that work pretty well on animals. Do they work forever? No. After awhile, you try something new they haven't learned the smell of yet. Wow. What a nuisance those animals are! If only I had thought of taking a shotgun and shooting my neighbors cat dead. That would have been a great way to forge neighborly relations, huh? And what about those bunnies? Varmints ate some of my newly planted Japanese Forest Grass this summer. I think I'll just shoot them, instead of just using that bunny repellent (that, shhhhhh...actually works pretty well).

    You shot your neighbor's pet, and then made jokes about it here. You're a loudmouthed bully who can't get along with either people or animals. And you have your very own little arsenal. You are, quite clearly, a danger to society.

    And I won't even waste my time on your rants about Jews and and the Holocaust.

    Go peddle your cr*p over at Redstate.


    Are you totally dependent on the food you (none / 0) (#167)
    by ruffian on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:05:00 PM EST
    raise yourself, to the point that you are going to go hungry if a stray pig digs up your  garden? You act like Scarlett O'Hara fighting off the pigs for the last carrot.

    You're being ridiculous now, jim (none / 0) (#177)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 02:39:58 PM EST
    Many of us have done all of those things.
    We have an enormous garden, a lot of fruit trees, grapes, and berries.  I can, freeze, dry, and/or root cellar enough stuff to feed us well until next Spring.
    I have hunted, fished, we raised beef for many years, and my freezer is full of venison.  So yeh, I know how to slaughter and butcher an animal, and clean a fish.
    We also have long guns and a (legal, registered) handgun.

    He likes that mythology (none / 0) (#179)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 03:04:43 PM EST
    of the salt-of-the-earth real Americans in "fly over country" vs the latte-drinking, Volvo-driving urban elites who've never done an honest day's work..

    Funny that the people who promoted that narrative the most in the last couple of decades were elites like David Brooks, Anne Coulter, and Bernie Goldberg.


    In a sense, I am (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by Zorba on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 03:53:05 PM EST
    sort of in fly over country.  At least, we have a 60 acre farm, but it's in Western Maryland, and we are an hour and a half from Washington, DC.  So maybe we are not so "fly over," since we visit the DC area frequently, to go to the museums, theaters, and some d@mned fine restaurants.  I don't think that's what Brooks, Coulter, etc, would consider "salt of the earth," although I would challenge David or Anne or Bernie to come out here and help butcher a deer.  They would probably faint.
    And I bet I'm a better shot than they are, too.    ;-)
    But Mr. Zorba and I are flaming, real, leftie liberals, and we always have been.

    Accuracy is one problem (none / 0) (#32)
    by McBain on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:00:27 AM EST
    range is another.  I'm sure people are working on it, but we don't have a good stunning device yet.  

    There are such devices, called area denial (none / 0) (#37)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 07:47:03 AM EST
    weapons.  Sound cannons.  High wattage directional Microwaves.  But they're not portable.  And not handy for impromptu encounters like this one.

    An overhead drone administering a ketamine shower or something similar is one possibility.  It would be hard on the bystanders or hostages, however.


    They Have Them... (none / 0) (#48)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:08:33 AM EST
    ...many kinds, sonic, electric, chemical, but they are not designed to take down people wearing bulletproof vests and shooting assault rifles, who in all likelihood had no plans of being taken alive.

    They were caught long after the shooting, but in the same area, which indicates they didn't have an escape plan of any kind.

    If there is one thing we should learn from mass shootings, and there have been 1,052 mass shootings in 1,066 days. it's that if the cops don't kill them, they usually do it to themselves.  Not in every case, but in most.


    This is why I don't believe in executions (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 10:23:59 PM EST
    in general. These people, their thinking, circumstances, and history should be studied -- and that can only happen in any depth if they're alive.

    really OT, but, (none / 0) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 10:36:28 PM EST
    the ave time between conviction and execution is like 15 years.

    Depends... (none / 0) (#47)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:57:21 AM EST
    ...if they have a large social media footprint plenty can be learned and let's face it, two dead suspects just saved the state a small fortune considering this would have most likely been a DP case.

    Not that I don't think they should bring suspects in, but it's pretty obvious that most of these mass shooters have no intentions of being taken alive.


    I think there is a 3rd person involved (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 10:34:27 PM EST
    who is alive.

    No, but (none / 0) (#35)
    by jbindc on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 05:01:33 AM EST
    They leave a 1 year old daughter behind.

    A newlywed couple (none / 0) (#36)
    by TrevorBolder on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 05:14:33 AM EST
    Must have a very strong motive to plan on killing a large amount of people,

    And leave behind a 1 year old baby


    A man who identified himself as Farook's father told the Daily News his son worked as a health technician inspecting restaurants and hotels.

    "I haven't heard anything. He worked in a county office," Farook's dad told The News. "He's married and has a kid. We're estranged because my wife got the divorce, and they are together. She doesn't want to see me."

    Farook said he hasn't seen his son in some time.

    "He was very religious. He would go to work, come back, go to pray, come back. He's Muslim."

    Not to mention (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Wed Dec 02, 2015 at 09:23:24 PM EST
    not working well.

    Daily News front page (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 08:25:26 AM EST
    Let the insanity wash over you (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 08:47:19 AM EST

    How Often Do Mass Shootings Occur? On Average, Every Day, Records Show

    More than one a day.

    That is how often, on average, shootings that left four or more people wounded or dead occurred in the United States this year, according to compilations of episodes derived from news reports.

    Including the worst mass shooting of the year, which unfolded horrifically on Wednesday in San Bernardino, Calif., a total of 462 people have died and 1,314 have been wounded in such attacks this year, many of which occurred on streets or in public settings, the databases indicate.

    Indeed.   God isn't fixing this.

    It's (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 08:55:55 AM EST

    Pathetic (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:00:29 AM EST
    Doesn't really cover it.

    I know (none / 0) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:23:01 AM EST
    It's awful.

    The Gardian Put it in Perspective (none / 0) (#49)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:27:37 AM EST
    1,052 mass shootings in 1,066 days.

    They also point out, US shootings are getting more frequent and more deadly.


    A Canadian commenter (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by NYShooter on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:57:40 PM EST
    responding to an article in the NY Times
    about this case, says it all:

    "What Is Wrong With You People?"


    It's a fair question (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:02:02 PM EST
    Pretty impressive stash (none / 0) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:17:50 PM EST
    Of tools ammo and weapons for a workplace dispute.

    This one (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by CST on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:24:30 PM EST
    Is definitely weirder than the rest.

    I can't wrap my head around the fact (none / 0) (#115)
    by vml68 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 07:27:57 PM EST
    that they had a 6 month old daughter. WHY??!

    It is very strange (none / 0) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 07:51:31 PM EST
    There was in interesting conversation I caught on cable this afternoon.   Some "terror specialists" we're discussing how weird the whole thing was.   That they had this amazing Arsenal and the hit the softest of soft targets.   It was said that they would be ridiculed in the jjhadist community for that alone but apparently they even screwed that up.   It was said that it looked like they panicked.   Or freaked themselves out by their own actions.   The fact that they jumped in the car and went back home seemed to make no sense.   That they just hung around and got caught.

    It was an interesting conversation.   And this is just me thinking out loud but she was Saudi.  Her family is there?  I wonder if they were maybe forced to do what they did with threats to her family?  As I said just thinking out loud so let the reasons I'm completely out to lunch flow.  But so much of it really makes no sense.


    I've been hearing the pundits (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Towanda on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:44:04 PM EST
    muse that perhaps the male was a Svengali sort, and that his wife just blindly did as he said to do.

    That he went overseas for her just might suggest, I mused, that media pundits never heard of Mata Hari.

    (Seriously: All of the musing based on nothing, but for such stuff of gendered mindbending, makes me go to mute.  I wish that, instead of "breaking news!" banners, networks would banner "actual facts this time!" to tell me to un-mute for a few minutes.)


    Ha (none / 0) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:13:20 PM EST
    I've heard just the opposite.   That she was the bad egg.   Corrupting the American boy.

    Sorry, not ha.    It's really not funny at all


    I saw something similar (none / 0) (#168)
    by ragebot on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:09:44 PM EST
    Claim was the wife was the driving force kinda like Mrs. Eleanor Shaw Iselin in the Manchurian Candidate.

    That he went overseas for her, suggested to (none / 0) (#129)
    by vml68 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:35:36 PM EST
    me that he wanted a "traditional" wife.  Considering he was born and raised here, I found that a bit surprising.

    Very common for southeast Asian immigrants to look for spouses in their home countries but the next generation born and raised here are usually too "Americanized" and tend not to go that route.


    But the timing of the trip and the birth (none / 0) (#132)
    by Towanda on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 11:29:03 PM EST
    . . . well, maybe I'm reading muddled reporting, but it does not seem to compute.

    Just a harmless traditional muslim woman (none / 0) (#138)
    by Redbrow on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 12:11:28 AM EST
    Like the "widows and orphans" sexist Obama mocked Ameicans for "fearing" a couple of weeks ago.

    But have no fear (none / 0) (#139)
    by Redbrow on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 12:29:19 AM EST
    She was "well vetted".

    CBS News
    CBS News - Verified account ‏@CBSNews

    NEW: Shooting suspect Tashfeen Malik passed DHS counterterrorism screening as part of her vetting for K-1 visa, @margbrennan reports.
    2:53 PM - 3 Dec 2015
    1,020 RETWEETS411 LIKES


    Odd (none / 0) (#117)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:03:16 PM EST
    I was going to link to that conversation.  It was on Hardball.   So I went to the site and it's not there.  Every minute of today's
    Program is on the site except that.   Which was the opening segment.    That's so interesting because I can't remember the last time I heard something on that show I found interesting.  And Tweety, thinking about it, seemed uncomfortable during the segment.  
    Did anyone else see Hardball this afternoon?

    Apparently (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 10:14:45 PM EST
    No one watches Hardballbut me.   Big surprise there.

    There is a comment below from yesterday (none / 0) (#118)
    by ragebot on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:04:50 PM EST
    claiming the reason they went back to the house was to get more ammo.  Not sure if I buy that but it is one theory.  While much has been made of the planning keep in mind they left a pipe bomb in the room where the shooting took place and had a remote control device in the car to detonate the bomb.  It is common in Israel to place two bombs in a busy place, detonate one, wait for the LEOs to come and detonate the second.  The police report said when the Leos started following the car the shooters stopped the car and started the fire fight which could mean the shooters were spoiling for a fight.

    In any case there are reports ISIS has called on other to do what the young lions have done.  Not sure they are being laughed at.

    Also have to point out I have seen LEOs saying she was from Pakistan and that both shooters traveled to Pakistan for sure but no confirmation they went to Saudi Arabia.  Not saying for sure this is the case.  But I have also seen disputed reports with some sources saying the shooters had Go Pros and others saying that was not confirmed.

    In any case my understanding is the whole point is to hit soft targets, and I have never seen anyone ridiculed for that.

    I am still not convinced the house was not more of an ammo supply depot with facilities to build bombs.


    Pakistan (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:11:05 PM EST
    Yes. Sorry.  I knew that.  Still.

    You could be entirely right.   As I said it was just a strange conversation.   I posted another comment about how that segment is not on the site.   Maybe something to do with some of your comment.

    Who knows.   But I do think there are many strange thing about this.   We will probably never know.


    From what I have read, they both are (none / 0) (#122)
    by vml68 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 09:23:12 PM EST
    of Pakistani descent. She and her family lived in Saudi Arabia but she still held a Pakistani passport.

    That arsenal must have taken some time to acquire, so I am assuming this was in the works for a while. Then why have a child?
    And once they had the child, I am wondering if they thought f&ck it, I would rather be with my baby than kill a bunch of strangers but could not back out. If it was just the guy doing the shooting, I would put it down to workplace violence but add the wife into the mix and it makes no sense.

    Wish I could say I had a clue, but I don't.


    I found the transcript (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 09:12:56 AM EST
    full transcript

    Malcolm, give us a sense right now about this attack. And you`ve been
    listening to this. Fill us in on what`s missing, the cement that possibly
    could put this whole story together.

    absolutely fascinating attack. And I can tell you as a professional,
    they`re going to be writing theses about this attack.

    There are so many factors in here which don`t add up. You have what
    apparently is a radicalized person who creates very large quantities of
    explosives, large weapons systems, actually practices on these systems, and
    then goes to his workplace to do - former workplace to do workplace -
    what appears to be workplace violence.

    Then goes out, goes back to his home, and appears to be going for a
    restrike to do something else, instead of getting on the 10, driving into
    Los Angeles and having a shootout at Malibu Beach or something like that.
    Absolutely fascinating.


    NANCE: I`ve been talking to law enforcement across the whole United
    States who`ve been calling me today, asking about that very question. Why
    did they not conduct, you know, a full-scale massacre? I mean, they went
    into a room with people who were literally in wheelchairs, with nurses, and
    carried out the softest target attack that they could possibly find. They
    are going to be ridiculed within the jihadi community for this. I mean,
    they didn`t even try to carry out a serious attack.

    The wife was Pakistani. (none / 0) (#155)
    by caseyOR on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 09:25:39 AM EST
    The two met in Saudi Arabia, but the intensive background investigation and vetting they both had to go through to get her what is known as a "fiancee" visa was handled by U.S. personnel in Islamabad.

    I'm very familiar with the fiancee visa (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Towanda on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 09:53:59 PM EST
    as sponsor of my now-daughter-in-law (and now a citizen).  And the reports don't quite make sense, as it's reported that they married overseas, but that she came in on a fiancee visa.  That's a no-no, we were told, that can prevent entry, revoke permission for entry, require starting over, etc.

    I suspect that they may have been married in some ceremony overseas, a religious ritual, but did not register the marriage as official until here?

    Or, if they did declare themselves as already married, questions may arise for INS.


    Yes, that is what I thought too, when I read (none / 0) (#185)
    by vml68 on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 10:02:04 PM EST
    that she came in on a K-1 visa. They must have had a religious ceremony there but did not register the marriage till they came here.

    Manchurian Candidate (none / 0) (#57)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:21:30 PM EST
    Did you see the news conference? (none / 0) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:24:57 PM EST
    12 pipe bombs plus a lab to make more, thousands of rounds of ammo.

    Violent lunatics do the darndest things. (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:27:24 PM EST
    Yeah (none / 0) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:31:40 PM EST
    I'm sure he just got pissed off at the party and went home and made 12 pipe bombs.

    If I had to take a wild guess (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by CST on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:35:47 PM EST
    I'd say he was planning something bigger, and his temper got the best of him.

    That is one theory (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:38:57 PM EST
    Does he still qualify for the virgins?

    I've been to some bad parties (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:34:09 PM EST
    but never one that bad.

    Interesting to me (5.00 / 4) (#70)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:50:24 PM EST
    That this, most likely, will involve no discussion of mental health.   As many shootings have.   And rightly so.  But a couple who amass an Arsenal to, apparently, kill their coworkers, who drop their child off knowing they will never see it again on the way to the mass slaughter are not considered insane because......religion.

    Maher may be right.

    Btw I just saw Paul Ryan explain that people on the terrorist watch list should not be prohibited from buying guns because they might be on it by mistake.   And he is also considered sane.


    If I were a Demo frontrunner (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:01:26 PM EST
    I would publicly quote Ryan and underscore the implications of his statement to the skies..

    This is that libertarian absolutism, which is like the secular version of the Right's literalist religious fundamentalism..


    Jondee, that last sentence (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:17:27 PM EST
    Is just too hard for me.  I'm a good, but slow learner.  If it weren't raining I'd go fishing and forget it.  Those words individually are ok, but in one sentence together, yo no intiendo. (-:

    I'm saying that Ryan is an unbending (5.00 / 3) (#84)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:23:39 PM EST
    ideologue, the same way the fundamentalists are unbending religious ideologues.

    But then, Ryan idolized Ayn Rand (none / 0) (#91)
    by christinep on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:41:32 PM EST
    Exactly.. (none / 0) (#92)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:48:02 PM EST
    they always "err on the side of freedom"..forgetting that real freedom requires a lot more information than a bumper sticker with the word Freedom! on it.

    I read a monograph by early Rand (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:57:26 PM EST
    follower Nathanial Branden in which he literally said Ayn Rand was the greatest human being who ever lived, and I thought he was joking or that it was a satirical piece, and it turned out that wasn't..

    And people here wonder how a movement like ISIS could possibly attract followers..


    Well, Branden was also cheating on his wife (none / 0) (#95)
    by shoephone on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:17:09 PM EST
    with Rand. So, there's that.

    Nathaniel going where angels fear to tread.. (none / 0) (#97)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:25:10 PM EST
    he's a better man than I.

    I just had an image of Rand (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:34:09 PM EST
    Midge Decter and Jeanne Kirkpatrick in Macbeth..

    the terrorist watch list thing (none / 0) (#71)
    by CST on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:56:05 PM EST
    Blew my mind.

    I mean, I'm not a fan of the no fly list, and I kind of agree with Ryan's opposition to it - as a whole.  But I wasn't expecting that reason from the GOP, and frankly, I don't buy that he actually believes that.  Why not propose scrapping the list entirely then?


    I know! (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:27:26 PM EST
    If they are on by mistake take them off!

    Whatcha (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:12:13 PM EST
    wanna bet Hillary has got that on tape?

    I effin' hope so.. (none / 0) (#81)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:20:53 PM EST
    Ryan should at least be consistent... (none / 0) (#166)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:04:12 PM EST
    and let people on the no-fly list fly. Documented mistakes there, most notably the late Senator Ted Kennedy.

    I think it is sane to question having such lists when such lists will inevitably contain errors and mistaken identities.  All well and good till you end up on a list.  

    Bah, It's all f*cking security theater anyway, with the added bonus of jamming up innocent people, for the sake of an illusion of some semblance of control or safety.  


    You can question it (none / 0) (#169)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:17:16 PM EST
    but the stark reality is that even if they're motivated completely by self interest, no career politician wants to be accused of letting something horrific happen on their "watch".

    Yeah true... (none / 0) (#170)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:21:05 PM EST
    and that's ultimately "we the people"'s fault...another stark reality is we can't handle the truth, nor want the truth.  We wanna feel warm and fuzzy and "safe".

    warm fuzzy and not blown up.. (none / 0) (#173)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:28:22 PM EST
    that's all I want for the holidays.

    What a Merry Christmas... (none / 0) (#174)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:34:37 PM EST
    that would be!  I hope Kris Kringle makes it so.

    Speaking of lists and mistakes...even Santa makes mistakes.  I was always on the good list but definitely deserved coal at least once or twice.  I hope some good kid didn't take my slot on the naughty list in error and got stiffed outta his GI Joe with the Kung Fu Grip.


    That whole (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:47:19 PM EST
    "he sees you when you're sleeping.." bit always kinda creeped me out..

    Taking that 'War on Christmas' (none / 0) (#76)
    by ruffian on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:11:31 PM EST
    rhetoric to heart.

    If there is a war (none / 0) (#83)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:22:19 PM EST
    It's on sanity.   Donald today-

    ....radical ...Islamic ...terrorism.    And I'll tell you want;  we have a president who refuses to use the term

    He refuses to say it

    There is something going on with him that we...don't....know about

    I believe this man will be the nominee.   For the very reason that he eagerly stoops this low.


    preachin' to the choir.. (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:28:36 PM EST
    the secret muslim - forged birth certificate crowd..

    I'm not sure this is stooping for Trump. For the average person it would be..


    Were you joking (none / 0) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 04:30:32 PM EST
    Or had you seen this-

    Fox News legal analyst Peter Johnson Jr. warned that Wednesday's mass killing in San Bernardino could be a "literal war on Christmas."

    Every time I hear Fox and friends (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 04:56:11 PM EST
    all I can visualize is Sherry Lewis with hand puppets.

    Just Another Jacka$$ (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 05:34:06 PM EST
    ...who doesn't understand the term 'literal'.

    Although I read that the holidays are forming a coalition.


    LA Times (none / 0) (#65)
    by sj on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:31:46 PM EST
    Apparently my free trial (??) has ended. They now offer me the opportunity to get a 10 day/$.99 trial.
    *After the first 10 days, your subscription will be billed for 13 weeks at $3.99 per week
    So for $52 every three months I can read 4 or 5 articles.

    Or not.

    sj just dump your cookies... (none / 0) (#72)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 12:57:01 PM EST
    That didn't sound good but you know what I mean.  After finally locating your cookies you can cruise through them and eliminate individuals.  They seem to camouflage some but you can usually crack their system.  It's all those other cookies on the list that I wonder about.  I haven't been bothered by the NY Times lately, like before, so not sure what's going on there.  I do subscribe to the Miami Herald online, so maybe with the newspaper mergers and buyouts I'm ok for other papers.  Who knows?

    Have dumped cookies (none / 0) (#77)
    by sj on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:11:47 PM EST
    and cleared caches (I thought) and deleted temp files. I have no idea where they stashed that info.

    I'm thinking of a sour grapes "well who needs them anyway" response...


    have you tried (none / 0) (#79)
    by CST on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:14:51 PM EST
    incognito mode for your browser?

    You millenials know this stuff... (none / 0) (#82)
    by fishcamp on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:22:05 PM EST
    I just dumped my cookies (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:26:24 PM EST
    Into a big plastic bucket to take over to my sister.    Since she has been recuperating I have addicted her to my famous patented oatmeal cookies.    I now regularly get two word text messages from her

    "I'm out"



    My dad taught me all about computers (none / 0) (#87)
    by CST on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:26:37 PM EST
    You'd think he'd learn how to text...

    use a different browser (none / 0) (#90)
    by ding7777 on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 01:30:57 PM EST
    One Point I Haven't Seen Made (none / 0) (#100)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Dec 03, 2015 at 02:54:53 PM EST
    They were not done.

    The suspects were surprised by police who went to the house based on a tip, possibly just one of several tips being followed at the same time.

    The drive-by hit paydirt in the form of the suspect vehicle, which went back on the move, presumably before the occupants realized they had been made.  Had they known they had been found and expected a shoot-out they would have stayed in the house where they had more ammo than there is in Uzbekistan.

    Back to the base to re-supply after the initial shooting, and then back out means they meant to do more damage.  The fact that they left a considerable arsenal back at the base indicates that they expected to return for more ammo.

    When apprehended they had the remote trigger with them.  I suspect that they thought they had triggered the bomb left at the site of the initial attack, but were out of range of the transmitter before they pushed the button.

    the shooting (none / 0) (#172)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Fri Dec 04, 2015 at 01:28:13 PM EST
    the shooting was, I believe, a form of terrorism, albeit diff from usual.

    The man had had arguments with a Christian at work about the nature of Islam.  With tremendous planning and premeditation, the hus and wife planned one or more terrorist attacks, apparently starting with killing the Christian who said that Islam was not a religion of peace.

    The couple had $30K worth of weaponry and explosives and the wife does not work and the hus made about $55K a year.  Either he had a credit line and credit cards or someone else has helped fund his arsenal/weaponry.  

    We kind of hope that the police will have dusted everything in the home for prints of accomplishes . . .