Happy Thanksgiving and Open Thread

It's a Thanksgiving tradition we never miss here at Casa TalkLeft. Radio stations around the country today will play the 18 minute version of Arlo Guthrie's Alice's Restaurant, recorded in 1967.

Should you miss it on your local radio station and yearn for the original version, you can listen to the You Tube version above.

Why listen to Arlo's 18 minute version of Alice's Restaurant? Because it's like our liberal national anthem, that only comes around once day a year, so you don't want to miss it as it's coming around.

If you're wondering where Alice is, she's here. Does anyone besides me still have a hardcover edition of her 1969 Alice's Restaurant cookbook in their kitchen? (Photo here.) It's filled with tasty recipes and very easy instructions.

After relaxing and laughing with Arlo, you'll be ready for the chaos of Thanksgiving dinner. [More...]

TalkLeft wishes you all a Happy Thanksgiving. We are especially grateful to those of you who carve time out of your busy days and nights to read what we have to say and add your thoughts in comments.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome, including what you are making or ate for Thanksgiving dinner.

< Pre-Thanksgiving Open Thread | Foreign Fighters and ISIS: What the West Should be Doing >
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    And we are thankful (5.00 / 4) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 07:42:26 AM EST
    For those who provide the forum.

    Happy Thanksgiving.

    My friend, who lives down here now, (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by fishcamp on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 10:56:58 AM EST
    grew up in Stockbridge and was arrested by officer Obie a few times during his high school days.  Nothing serious, one way street violations and minor stuff, so he says.  He said the original Alice's Restaurant is very tiny in size.  Since it became so popular Alice opened a much larger one near the Tanglewood casino, but it's not doing very well.  He called to remind me to listen to it as I was listening to it.  Well, it's back to the Tzatziki making, and yes I'm thinking of you zorba.  Happy Thanksgiving my friends.

    Tonight PBS is airing "Alice's (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by caseyOR on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 12:37:53 PM EST
    Restaurant 50th Anniversary Concert". Here in the central time zone it starts at 7 pm.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all at TL. This site remains my main hangout on the intertoobz, my digital homeplace. I am grateful it exists. Thank you, Jeralyn, so very much.

    Sadly (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CoralGables on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:39:22 PM EST
    My PBS has Yanni and the BeeGees tonight

    And on PBS in L.A., it's Bobby Vinton. (none / 0) (#26)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 01:46:37 AM EST
    Every time I hear "Blue Velvet," I think of David Lynch's dark and twisted 1986 thriller. Here's a Thanksgiving toast to the late Dennis Hopper, whose creepy sociopath Frank Booth is one of the more memorable villains in movie history.

    White shooters at BLM protest arrested, ID'd (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by shoephone on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 04:06:50 PM EST
    A sampling:

    The day after the shooting, Mr. Scarsella posted a Confederate banner known as the Bonnie Blue Flag at the top of his Facebook page. A video posted on YouTube showed a SWAT team arresting him at his house in a Minneapolis suburb later in the day.

    The racial tension at the protests began to grow after a video was posted online last week showing two light-skinned men saying they planned to go to the protest to "make the fire rise."

    In the video, which was posted on a Black Lives Matter Facebook page to alert members, two young men in masks and military fatigues were driving in a car. The driver identified himself as SaigaMarine, and his passenger as BlackPowerRanger.

    "We're locked and loaded," SaigaMarine told the camera as he brandished a pistol. Referring to protesters using a racial slur, he said the pair planned to visit the protest to "do a little bit of reverse cultural enriching."

    Happy Thanksgiving fellas. May it be the first of many you spend in prison.

    Where is Arlo now? (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 05:27:06 PM EST
    Nov. 28 at 8 pm @ Carnegie Hall. Tickets available on line.

    It's been a busy week, but it's also (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 11:41:44 AM EST
    been a fun week...having the whole week off was a much-needed break from work.  Which is not to say I wasn't busy with Thanksgiving prep, but the pace was better.

    We had a great time - but then, it's always great when the people I love are all under the same roof!

    Have to say that I did peek in here from time to time, but wasn't inspired to join the fray.

    Glad you all had a good holiday - hope you aren't wearing yourself out in the Black Friday madness!

    Here's some turkey stuff (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 12:23:28 PM EST
    LOL! (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Zorba on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 01:47:30 PM EST
    After all these years, I still laugh at this.   :-D

    Christmas came early (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 05:59:05 PM EST
    Visiting friends yesterday I admired this lovely little M. Charles Rhinehart oil which I had done before and he gave it to me.

    Sh!tty iPad photo.    Looks much better on my wall

    It still looks (none / 0) (#63)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 06:35:34 PM EST
    really nice though you can't tell whether it's supposed to be impressionist style or not :)

    It's probably a sketch (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 06:57:50 PM EST
    For one of his big landscapes.  It's a bit loose.  I love that about it.    It's small.  8x10.  On board.

    Yes, I like that loose look also (none / 0) (#109)
    by ruffian on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 11:07:26 AM EST
    Wish I had 1% of that artistic gift. Hard to believe it is only 8x10. Something to appreciate in your home for a long time to come.

    Nice- and nice to have such good friends. I will (none / 0) (#104)
    by ruffian on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:36:11 AM EST
    have to be more admiring of my friends' stuff!

    Hey, I finally started The Leftovers (season 1)...while eating leftovers...seemed appropriate. Very good, I'm hooked. The GR are as annoying as I thought they would be, but in context easier to take than I expected since they annoy everyone else too. And I usually hate subplots about teenagers, but this crew is great.

    So thanks for the encouragement!


    They did a marathon of season 2 (none / 0) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:41:15 AM EST
    Yesterday.  Between the east and west channels I think I rewatched the whole thing.

    Pay attention to who dies along the way.   They all reappear in the afterlife episode aired last week.  

    I really hope it gets a third season.


    "the Afterlife episode" (none / 0) (#115)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 12:40:01 PM EST
    When I was a kid my sisters and I rushed home to watch Dark Shadows.  The characters were slowly killed off so they invented rooms in the mansion where the same actors played themselves in the distant past and in a parallel universe.  At one point it seemed the producers reached into a parallel distant past.  I can't believe I watched it.

    Almost through season 1 (none / 0) (#138)
    by ruffian on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 07:51:59 PM EST
    I do have to call BS on one thing...no one would live with that barking dog in their back yard for that long. It is driving me crazy just watching it.

    Oh and (none / 0) (#107)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:44:44 AM EST
    He had found that at some estate sale and was not a huge fan of the artist.   While I'm not a huge fan I admit I do like it.   It can be Kincadeish but I love illustration type art.   And this was interesting because it was such a loose sketch.

    He actually said he bought it for the frame which is one of those huge ornate things that doubles the size of the thing


    Frames can be the coolest part of museum (none / 0) (#116)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 12:41:33 PM EST
    exhibitions.  Check 'em out sometime.

    Frame (none / 0) (#135)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 05:49:02 PM EST
    Captain, the (none / 0) (#108)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:56:05 AM EST
    painting is very nice--from nice friends to a nice guy.   Be sure to put a picture light over it.

    I firmly believe (5.00 / 4) (#111)
    by KeysDan on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 11:14:49 AM EST
    that all Christians are not murderers, or Christo-fascist terrorists.  And, even, that all murderers are Christians.  However, it may be useful to register all Christians, or at least all Evangelicals and others who, like the shooter, probably are "pro-life." Besides, the internet is full of thousands and thousands of Christians cheering the shooter.

      Of course, we do not yet know anything about Mr. Dear and any relationship that may or may not exist because Colorado Springs or North Carolina, or Operation Rescue.  And, it would be irresponsible not to speculate, such as a bank robbery, and he may have intended to tunnel over to the Chase Bank with his "items," reportedly propane tanks to blow up the safe.

     And, not really a gun nut, just mental. Although, maybe a good defense for Mr. Dear, if proved sane, would be his inspirational interpretations from the Republican candidates for president, such as Fiorina's brain harvesting video or Marco Rubio who just this week, said that God's law trumps governmental laws (ie US Constitution)if it makes you sin.  And, when the two come into conflict, God's law wins.  

    Missed this (none / 0) (#125)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 01:55:47 PM EST
    or at least all Evangelicals and others who, like the shooter, probably are "pro-life." Besides, the internet is full of thousands and thousands of Christians cheering the shooter.

    Did find this/


    I want you to be Breitbart.. (none / 0) (#152)
    by jondee on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 05:40:45 PM EST
    What's your point?

    Did Undead Breitbart inspire the PP shooter the way your gal pal Pam Geller inspired Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik?

    And, aren't you the one who was flogging hysterical stories here awhile back about PP selling body parts?

    Why yes, as a matter of fact you were.


    The State in which I live: Colorado (5.00 / 2) (#132)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 04:32:26 PM EST
    Columbine. Aurora Theater. Planned Parenthood in Colorado Springs.

    It hurts to reflect on the reality of what those names mean now ... the reality of those images. In the United States, three of the more notorious shooting rampages occurred in this State that is my home.  Does it mean pockets of hatred lugging high-powered guns to scenes of death and human carnage now? In the 6th grade, students learned the state song about "beautiful Colorado" with the exhilarating mountains & open skies & unbounded optimism.  

    For 15+ years now, Coloradans witnessed these jarring punctuations of hate in automatic cracks and rifle reports. Why? Because the suspect in custody for the terror in Colorado Springs is alive, perhaps there will be some information about Why ... in this case, anyway.  Scanning the news reports in the Denver Post and its blog a bit ago, there does not appear to be too much info beyond the timetable, name (Robert Lewis Dear) and earlier homes in North Carolina and South Carolina (with minor legal scrapes in those areas involving a former wife and another woman and one allegation of animal abuse against a dog.) One interesting factoid: Dear registered to vote in Colorado about a year ago.  Also: Colorado Sprgs Mayor John Suthers--erstwhile AG--noted that security personnel at PP were very helpful in providing video feed early on together with schematics/diagrams of the PP layout.

    Colorado Springs ... 12 people shot and injured; 5 of those individuals were law enforcement; and 3 individuals dead (1 CU law enforcement officer and 2 civilians.)  Without going too far ahead and speculating too much, I feel that the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooting rampage may well have strong effects, followed by many ripple effects, in our society.  Our Governor John Hickenlooper has called for our focus to be on supporting those harmed, touched by yesterday's vicious act ... cautioning that the time will come for societal responses.  He is right, of course ... but, even today, it is very hard not to see an unusual confluence of matters in the place named Colorado Springs.  

    The Springs has always been a conservative center of Colorado ... major fundamentalist/evangelical center (recall the politically active Focus on the Family); big-time center for expanding gun advocacy; and, historical ties to the military and support for all matters enforcement via Fort Carson, the Air Force Academy, and retired military presence throughout the area.  The reason for my reference to the perceived nature of Colorado Springs: Because the national press will focus on such matters as the story unfolds ... rightly or wrongly.  The confluence of sociological backstory with a shooting that is destined for national scrutiny almost guarantees added levels of emotion.

    However and wherever this latest shooting tragedy goes ... for the present, I am plain sad-angry.

    Thanks I knew I could count on you to post this! (none / 0) (#2)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 10:07:59 AM EST

    What I really wish (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 12:11:38 PM EST
    is that I had a recording of the 30+ minute version of "Alice's Restaurant" that I heard Arlo perform live in the basement of some Greenwich Village club in 1967. I was 18 or a bit less, and Arlo was not much older. There were two alternate versions, too, each of which could have been 40 minutes (when performed stoned):  "Alice Around the World" and "Alice and the Multi-Colored Rainbow Roach: A Real Spy-Tingler," IIRC. Never seen or heard a recording of either of those, either.

    Don't you know you can't go home again? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:21:10 PM EST
    - Ella Winter, quoted by Thomas Wolfe.

    Happy Thanksgiving, folks!


    Said the guy using the moniker (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Peter G on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:50:31 PM EST
    "Mr. Natural." Ironic. Anyway, Keep on Truckin', my friend.

    I know, right? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Zorba on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 10:51:19 AM EST
    I keep asking him, "What does it all mean?"  But I receive no answer.  ;-)

    lol... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 06:30:24 PM EST
    "It don't mean sheeit!"

    No kidding (none / 0) (#64)
    by Zorba on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 06:51:38 PM EST

    Sure to raise the blood pressure (none / 0) (#3)
    by CoralGables on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 10:34:58 AM EST
    of the GOP this Thanksgiving, the President added a signing statement to the Defense Appropriations Bill yesterday effectively saying Congress cannot prevent the closing of Gitmo.

    From the Wall Street Journal:

    President Barack Obama signed legislation Wednesday that authorizes military spending and sets policies for next year, but issued a statement designed to give him leeway to circumvent provisions blocking his plans to close the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

    Nice holiday gift for the GOP (none / 0) (#8)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 12:56:47 PM EST
    I like it. Hope he comes up with an equally good gift for them during the December holiday season as well.

    Sad but true. Remember our reaction (none / 0) (#10)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:22:48 PM EST
    to Dubya's signing edicts?

    Cool new presidential superpowers never, ever go away.


    Yes, I didn't like them (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:46:53 PM EST
    I don't much care for the idea even now but since, as you say, they will never go away, Obama may as well use them for something like this.

    I have a copy of Alice's cookbook... (none / 0) (#6)
    by desertswine on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 12:16:37 PM EST
    somewhere in the house, just not sure where.  It's probably in the basement with the Whole Earth Catalogues and those old Richard Brautigan novels.

    "A Highly Evolved Toolbox," in Soft-Tech (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 03:00:39 PM EST
    A Whole Earth book, still guides or mirrors my feelings about tools, thirty or forty years after I found it, way back when.  It was my first brush with alt.everything.  The book was a revelation.  Lamborghini tractors, solar water heating in the 1890s - who knew?

    The author's tookbox resurfaced in Taunton's first books on workshops.  Brand (I think it was Brand) evolved a large panel truck into a workshop and drove it from one cooperative venture to the next.  It sounded so freakin' cool.  That image of California burned itself into my brain.  Can-do and cooperating, in every sense of the words.

    Anyway, Repack, if you're reading this, that's what I saw in your book, Fat Tire Flyer.  People making something into More.  That matters.

    This stuff goes on everywhere, but California offers a better climate to do it in.


    solar water heating in the 1890s (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 12:20:43 PM EST
    Heck, we had when I was a boy.

    Also known as a No 3 wash tub filled with water drawn from the well first thing in the morning lefty set out in the summer sun all day.


    Thanks for the kind words (none / 0) (#40)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 02:35:36 PM EST
    In 1980 my associate Gary Fisher and I did reviews of bicycle books in The Next Whole Earth Catalog.

    The first notice in print of the new movement toward off-road bicycles appeared in the spring 1978 edition of the associated magazine, Co-Evolution Quarterly.


    I have an old, hard-cover copy (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Zorba on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 05:54:07 PM EST
    of Alice's cookbook, I know exactly where it is (in my extensive cookbook shelf in the kitchen), and it's pretty beat-up and stained, because I have used it many times over the years.
    Now, my collection of Whole Earth catalogues is put away in boxes, along with an old copy of "Our Bodies, Ourselves," and an equally old copy of "The Anarchist Cookbook."
    Yeh, I'm an old leftie.  Can you tell?   ;-)

    I barely remember his novels but the poetry titles (none / 0) (#11)
    by Mr Natural on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:25:04 PM EST
    some of them, anyway, are burned into my brain.

    "The pill vs the Springhill mine disaster"


    I think his most popular one... (none / 0) (#13)
    by desertswine on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:41:45 PM EST
    was "Trout Fishing in America," which was actually carried by some sport shops (by mistake, I guess).  

    Trump charging ahead . . . (none / 0) (#16)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 02:51:05 PM EST
    I see that my new non-favorite has been workin on winning over the disabled-people vote . . .

    re muslim celebrations (none / 0) (#18)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 03:48:54 PM EST
    does anyone know much if some usa muslims were celebrating on 9/11?

    we know for sure that muslims in palestine celebrated
    and we know for sure that Trump believes in hyperbole.

    However, it seems that there are some other people who are also claiming that they saw american muslims celebrating on that day . . .  Does anyone know more or do I have to go searching on the Net to find the truth from a somewhat credible source?

    Why (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by lentinel on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 04:51:09 PM EST
    is this topic of interest to you?

    oh (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 06:13:11 PM EST
    On one hand, Trump believes in lying, distortion, exaggeration and insults . . . he has stated publicly that hyperbole is ok and useful at times . . .

    Trump is probably talking about the videoclip shown of Palestinians who were celebrating and shown on most networks . . .

    the fact remains that there are or seem to be some US residents who are claiming to have witnessed celebrations firsthand . . .


    I like (none / 0) (#22)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 06:01:46 PM EST
    I like to find things out . . .

    I also do not believe in mistreating people . . .

    there is a fellow who is one of the clerks at the local gas station . . . we chatted; he is from Iran . . .  So I slowly get to practice hoda baraket or however one might write it, which is God bless you, in Farsi  . . .


    I think you're wasting both your time ... (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 01:50:18 AM EST
    ... and ours.

    It's called trolling...seems designed (5.00 / 3) (#30)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 11:24:15 AM EST
    to try to get something started. I guess it's in the realm of "just asking questions," which we know is completely disingenuous given the vast amounts of information out there and available with simple searches.

    I'm just so over it.


    Weren't there also... (none / 0) (#86)
    by unitron on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 10:33:07 PM EST
    ...supposed to be some dancing (for joy) Israelis (thought to be Mossad agents) watching the towers as they got hit from just over some bridge in New Jersey?  

    And wasn't there supposed to be a van with artwork on its side of the towers burning or falling or something like that driving around that day?

    I'm waiting for reputably-sourced, verified not to have been tampered with, time-stamped video as well as unimpeachable eye-witnesses before I begin taking any of those reports seriously.


    SITE VIOLATOR! (none / 0) (#25)
    by caseyOR on Thu Nov 26, 2015 at 10:30:51 PM EST

    Good day topped off by a Bears win over the Pack (none / 0) (#29)
    by ruffian on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 11:18:35 AM EST
    Is it too much to hope that sanity will return to the nation? Is it time for even the most deranged to sober up and Dump Trump?

    Audiobook recommendation: Sarah Vowelll's latest: Lafayette in the Somewhat United States. I've always loved her way into talking about history, with her combination of scholarship, modern day exploration, and humor, and this is no exception. I learned a lot - it has been along time since I studied the Revolution in any detail.  Vive La France!

    Staying away from he stores today, getting the housework done so I can enjoy the rest of the weekend. There may be a nap later...

    Enjoy, everyone!

    I know- the Bears won. Can you (none / 0) (#34)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 12:51:23 PM EST
    believe it? It's a Thanksgiving miracle. And they beat the Pack at Lambeau, on Brett-Favre-We-Love-You-All-Is-Forgiven-Night. Sweeeeeet!

    Go Ducks (none / 0) (#46)
    by fishcamp on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 03:47:22 PM EST
    They're playing Oregon State in their Civil War.  It's on FS1 right now.

    Final: Oregon 52, Oregon State 42. (none / 0) (#75)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 08:17:24 PM EST
    And 200 up north in Seattle, my Washington Huskies walloped Washington State, 45-10, to win the Apple Cup and become "bowl eligible," as the Fox Sports West announcers kept reminding us.

    Sorry, but while I do love my Huskies, win or lose, a 6-6 season is neither something to cheer about, nor to be rewarded with a post-season game. There are way too many bowl games on the schedule during the holiday season, if all one has to do to qualify for them is merely finish with a .500 record.



    The Ducks finished the season 9-3. (none / 0) (#76)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 08:25:15 PM EST
    Had QB Vernon Adams not suffered a broken finger in the first game of the season, the Ducks might now be in the mix for the national championship again this year. They won the final 6 games, all after Adams' finger healed.

    Yes, sticking it to them at Lambeau on Favre night (none / 0) (#110)
    by ruffian on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 11:09:39 AM EST
    made it extra fun. I was pretty sure they were going to blow it at the end though - had to watch every second, but it was worth staying up till midnight!

    Re audiobook recommends: (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 09:24:40 PM EST
    Robert Galbraith (J.K. Rowling):  Career of Evil.

    Holiday's over (none / 0) (#35)
    by FlJoe on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 01:24:20 PM EST
    Active shooter reported "near planned parenthood" in Colorado Springs.

    The Obama's accepted 1.35 million (none / 0) (#37)
    by Redbrow on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 02:01:14 PM EST
    Worth of gifts from the Saudis just in 2014.

    I wonder if Michelle Obama will return the gifts and cut off all assocoiation with the saudis until they allow women the privilege of driving?

    I wonder if Barak will return and refuse gifts unless they release the palestinian poet sentenced to death last week for being an apostate?

    I wonder if the obama daughters will return the 80k worth of jewelry unless women are allowed to travel freely without the requirement of a male family member escorting them at all times.

    What I wonder is, do you ever (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 02:19:23 PM EST
    look beyond the headlines, or question the source for these revelations you think are so damning?

    I ask because:

    The first thing to know is that these gifts aren't bribes. If Obama wants to keep anything he gets from another world leader, he has to pay fair market value for it and take it with him when he leaves office. Otherwise, U.S. law stipulates that the president must turn over everything to the National Archives or other institutions for storage or display. A quick look through this year's list suggests he did not opt to hold on to any presents.

    I can't even tell you how little time it took to establish that your insinuations are, once again, based on your fevered imagination and your desire to make something out of nothing.


    On the other hand (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 02:41:46 PM EST
    ...there is a copy of my book in the WH library.

    I have a friend who is a Hollywood set decorator, and for the last few years he has been called to decorate the WH library for the annual Halloween party.

    Last year he took a signed copy with him, and he spoke to the WH librarian.  He was told that if he officially donated the book, it would go into the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" warehouse.  OTOH, if he just left it in the library after decorating it for the party, it would go into the WH collection.  So he did.  I can always hope that Mr. Obama is curious about it.


    That does not prevent them (1.20 / 5) (#42)
    by Redbrow on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 02:45:30 PM EST
    From refusing the gifts as a matter of priniciple and they get to use the gifted items freely while they occupy the Whitehouse.

    You evidently support the brutal saudi muslim sharia regime and their gross human rights violations.


    ... uttered a single peep about either Saudi Arabia's human rights violations or the House of Saud's support / export of Wahhabi Islamic fundamentalism when Obama's predecessor was in office.

    Nor did I ever hear any of you profess any sense of concern that one day prior to the 9/11 attacks, former President George H.W. Bush hosted Shafiq bin Laden, the brother of Osama, at the Carlyle Group's annual investor conference held at New York City's Ritz Carlton Hotel.

    Further, IIRC, while the rest of us were grounded in the immediate wake of the 9/11 tragedy, the Bush administration granted the Saudis an exemption to the no-fly rule then in effect across the country in order to pick up / extricate several hundred members of the royal family, in some instances before federal authorities could question them about any links they might have had to the 19 hijackers.

    I'd offer better than even odds that you were likely dead silent about all of this while all this occurred, given that there was also nothing but the sound of crickets chirping on your side of the aisle for years after the fact, as well.

    So in this particular instance, your selective and manufactured outrage about Saudi gifts to President Obama is entirely opportunistic, and is further predicated on the fact that the current occupant of the Oval Office so happens to be both a Democrat and an African-American.



    I have never voted (none / 0) (#48)
    by Redbrow on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 04:02:48 PM EST
    For a republican.


    am an old school liberal who actually believes in liberty.


    Maybe that is because Libertarians (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by christinep on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 03:45:09 PM EST
    might not cotton to the idea of voting in a government-sponsored federal process.  Or maybe, Redbrow, it is because the "liberty" you would have us believe that you espouse is more of the give-me-my cabin--my-barbed wire fence-my gun(s)-maybe my dog-and-go away-because-everybody-should-take-care-of-themselves, etc.  'Strikes me that the "liberty" of which you speak--judging by other self-oriented comments--is the Me, Mine, & More About Me variety. So ... vote for yourself.

    Well, good for you. (none / 0) (#50)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 04:48:59 PM EST
    That said, any fool can draw a line in the sand. Successful diplomacy still requires that you get along with all the other children in the sandbox, and not demand that others accede to your desires and wishes at every turn. Otherwise, you'll likely be shown the door. You're never going to be part of the solution to problems, by effectively disengaging yourself out from the debate and discussion with an uncompromising attitude.

    And regardless of whether or not you approve, our country has a longstanding relationship with the Saudis, one which is unfortunately based upon their willingness to provide (relatively) cheap oil. As personally satisfying as it might be to simply flip them the bird and tell them to shove off, it would be irresponsible of President Obama to do so.

    While it would be nice for our country to one day enjoy that particular luxury, that will require us to wean ourselves and our national economy from our present reliance and dependence upon fossil fuels, and we're simply not there yet. In fact, we're not even close.



    We get 13% of our oil from SA (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 04:58:12 PM EST
    and do you really believe that they would quit selling us oil if we made a strong protest...you know, like saying, "Them jewels are sure 'nuff pretty and look real good but we can't accept them."

    No. What you believe is that no one should criticize Obama.



    That's a laugh, coming from someone ... (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 05:17:52 PM EST
    ... whose own beliefs about President Obama are consistently predicated upon racist right-wing bullschitt.

    Unless you are equipped with (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 05:19:03 PM EST
    the ability to read minds (and I think there is a lot of evidence that this is not something with which you were gifted), you should refrain from telling anyone what it is they believe.

    As someone who has documented proof of being able to criticize Obama, what are you going to tell me I believe?

    I am not fond of the US's affinity for the Saudis.  I don't care for the special treatment we give them, for the blind eye and deaf ear we employ so as to ignore their abysmal human rights record.

    But what I don't know is, what price would SA exact for our ending any semblance of a relationship?  How would they make us pay, jim?  Do you have a read on what they'd do, jim?  

    Wait, never mind; you're so bad at mind-reading, I'm pretty sure that anything you'd pull out of your a$$ would look, smell and sound pretty much like the place it originated.


    Anne, I can read your and Donald's (1.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 06:55:56 PM EST
    minds very easily.

    Demos good. Repubs bad.

    My belief is that if the gifts were just refused and/or returned without any political BS they would do nothing.

    If Obama gave them his standard police treatment...$5.00 gas.

    As long as we accept them SA is going to believe they are untouchable. I think Saddam had that belief when he invaded Kuwait and look what happened.

    What we need is a "supplier/customer" relation ship. Nothing more.


    One correction: (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by MKS on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 10:54:01 PM EST
    Republicans really, really bad.

    I "evidently" (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Anne on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 03:43:40 PM EST
    support the brutal saudi muslim sharia regime and their gross human rights violations?

    You got to that conclusion from my pointing out what the policy is on gifts from heads of state?

    Wow; if there's a ever an Olympic event in Fractured Logic, you'd be a lock for gold.


    You'd make a lousy diplomat, given that ... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 03:06:25 PM EST
    ... you apparently only wish to interact with those persons or regimes you find acceptable. An essential ingredient of effective leadership is the ability to compromise and work well with others. A political leader who goes out of his or her way to slight and offend people with whom he disagrees will at best be generally nonproductive, and at worst -- well, see "Bush, George W." and "Cheney, Richard B."

    True enough (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 03:50:11 PM EST
    But there is such a thing as good taste.

    Plus, if the gifts had been refused, or now returned, it would send a simple message of disapproval of the actions of SA.

    But then that would mean that Obama actually disapproves of the actions.


    Y'er right, Jimbo. Obama should topple (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 12:46:43 PM EST
    another Middle Eastern dictatorship.  That always ends well, doesn't it?

    Not that we'll ever see the end.


    Nope, didn't say that (none / 0) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 01:41:54 PM EST
    There is a difference between working to overthrow a government and informing them that you disagree with their policies.

    CNN is reporting an active shooter (none / 0) (#39)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 02:31:28 PM EST
    has taken hostages at the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorsdo Springs. Reports are that four police officers have been shot. No word on how many hostages have been shot.

    My god, it never ends. The a$$hole whose organization released the false, doctored PP videos is "praying for every
    Yone's safety." Yeah, right.

    As of this writing, it's too early ... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 05:13:10 PM EST
    ... to ascertain the gunman's motives, including whether the Planned Parenthood clinic was his intended target, or whether it was a nearby branch of J.P. Morgan Chase Bank, which is located in the same retail complex as the clinic.

    They captured. The guy alive (none / 0) (#67)
    by fishcamp on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 07:01:18 PM EST
    One PO confired dead... (none / 0) (#69)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 07:32:16 PM EST
    a UCCS officer who responded.  Unconfirmed civilian dead.  Police clearing buildings for additional victims and explosive devices.  

    MileHi, thought of you today (none / 0) (#70)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 07:45:48 PM EST
    as Iowa beat Nebraska. The Hawkeyes have their first perfect regular season in school history. Nice job, Hawkeyes.

    It's a huge accomplishment to be able ... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 08:00:19 PM EST
    ... to run the table during the regular season like that, I don't care what conference you're in. Look at Utah (Pac-12), Houston (AAC) and Toledo (MAC), all of whom handled their respective nonconference opponents with relative ease this season and looked to be rolling toward New Year's Day bowl games, only to stub their toes on conference rivals late in the season. (Houston still has a likely shot at the Fiesta Bowl, though, if the Cougars can beat Temple next Saturday.) Iowa fans can rightly be proud of their Hawkeyes tonight. I daresay nobody saw that coming.

    Thanks! (none / 0) (#73)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 08:02:44 PM EST
    Always good when we beat the Bugeaters - especially in Lincoln. To complete the regular season 12 and O is the cherry on top. Three more games to go.

    A bittersweet afternoon though given the apparent act of domestic terrorism in the Springs. So very sad and senseless.  


    Reports of 3 dead. (none / 0) (#74)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 08:12:14 PM EST
    2 civilians and the UCCS officer.  

    Probably (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by CoralGables on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 08:40:42 PM EST
    just another white christian male terrorist trying to spread his interpretation of the bible.

    3 DEAD 9:20 PM EST (none / 0) (#78)
    by Palli on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 08:30:04 PM EST
    3 dead, 9 hospitalized. (none / 0) (#80)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 08:41:35 PM EST
    Very proud of our daughter and all her colleagues (5.00 / 11) (#114)
    by Peter G on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 12:34:51 PM EST
    She works for Planned Parenthood in the Denver region, and has had responsibilities at that particular health center. She says that through a combination of the assailant's gunfire and the unfortunate but unavoidable effects of the outstanding police rescue mission, the clinic is essentially wrecked and may have to be rebuilt from scratch. The women and men who courageously continue to bring compassionate, quality health care services to low-income women all over the country through PP, despite endless rhetorical and physical attacks, deserve our deep admiration and redoubled support.

    "Too close to home" (5.00 / 2) (#118)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 12:51:38 PM EST
    takes on new meaning.

    I wish that I had the option of a 10 (5.00 / 6) (#119)
    by Towanda on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 01:03:30 PM EST
    to forward to your daughter and her coworkers, from this former clinic defender. (I no longer have the physical and emotional endurance to withstand the assaults on clinics in my city.) It is not possible for me to increase my admiration but I will redouble my monetary support -- for all of the services that PP provides, 97 percent of those not abortions, to both women and men . . . with her in my thoughts.

    PeterG, (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Zorba on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 03:00:36 PM EST
    I am sure that you were worried about your daughter when this happened (what parent wouldn't be?), but you definitely should be proud of her.
    She learned well from her parents.  And take pride in that, as well.
    Hugs to you, and to her.

    Thanks. (none / 0) (#71)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 07:48:11 PM EST
    We had the TV on CNN, and I had to walk out of the room because even as this incident was still in its active phase, they brought on some some dipschitt GOP congressman from Illinois -- a white male, of course -- who proceeded to talk about those manufactured and long-since-discredited Planned Parenthood videos as though they were real, before demanding that the agency apologize for stating publicly that its clinic was likely the gunman's intended target. WTF, CNN?

    Hilahila 'ole kēia po'e haole pupule. (These white wingbats are shameless.)


    GOP, please take note (none / 0) (#82)
    by Chuck0 on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 09:18:52 PM EST
    3 dead, 9 injured in Colorado Springs. No Syrians involved. Effing amazing. Donald Trump, now who do you want to round up?

    Another example of holding all (none / 0) (#85)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 27, 2015 at 09:32:14 PM EST
    human lives to be sacred.  

    They can't just round up lone nuts (none / 0) (#89)
    by jondee on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 07:35:38 AM EST
    who have no businness owning guns..

    It would alienate the base.


    Chucko, in case you don't understand (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 09:57:06 AM EST
    the difference....

    The shooter was opposed by the government and captured by the police. He will receive a fair trial and punished according to CO's law. I hope it is LWOP.

    I know of no Christian religious organization that is supporting him. It appears that he is just another nut acting by himself.

    There is not thousands of people seizing land while raping, burning, crucifying, stoning, hanging, beheading and drowning in support of his actions.

    OTOH we have no way of vetting the Muslim refugees Obama is trying to bring into the county.

    Your attempt at moral equivalency is laughable.


    How do we vet those applying for (none / 0) (#103)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:35:13 AM EST
    a visa to enter the country, and why is all the attention on a refugee process that takes up to three years and involves multiple agencies and seemingly endless investigation, and not on the easy-peasy process of getting a visa?

    Truth is, there is a way to vet them, there is a process for doing that.  And you'd know that if you didn't get all your information from outlets that want you to believe that Obama's just going to let them all in with no questions asked.  Hell, I posted the links where you could actually see what the process involves.

    But, here: take a look at which agencies are involved:

    United States Refugee Admissions Program (USRAP) Partners & their Roles

    The USRAP is an interagency effort involving a number of governmental and non-governmental partners both overseas and in the United States.

    The following agencies are involved in this effort:

        Department of State/Population, Refugees and Migration (PRM) - PRM has overall USRAP management responsibility overseas and has lead in proposing admissions ceilings and processing priorities.

        United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) - UNHCR refers cases to the USRAP for resettlement and provides important information with regard to the worldwide refugee situation.

        Resettlement Support Centers (RSC) - Under cooperative agreement with the Department of State, RSCs consist of international organizations or non-governmental organizations that carry out administrative and processing functions, such as file preparation and storage, data collection and out-processing activities.

        Department of Homeland Security (DHS) - Within DHS, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) has responsibility for adjudicating applications for refugee status and reviewing case decisions; the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection (CBP) screens arriving refugees for admission at the port of entry.

        Department of Health and Human Services/Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) - ORR administers domestic resettlement benefits for arriving refugees.

        International Organization for Migration (IOM) - Department of State contractors serve primarily as the travel agent for the USRAP and the OPE in certain locations.

        Non-Governmental Organizations - Provide resettlement assistance and services to arriving refugees.

    "Another nut acting by himself."  Sure.  Of course.  When it happens here, we must quickly disassociate the shooter from any connection to radical messaging, right?  No chance that this guy was affected or influenced by the propaganda that fills the right-wing, conservative airwaves and websites, right?  But you would have us believe that Syrians fleeing constant war and brutal living conditions MUST BE potential terrorists because many of them are Muslim. That's it - that's all we need to know.  Case closed.

    But you want to argue that if the Colorado Springs shooter is a Christian, and you're a Christian, we can't draw any conclusions about what you're capable of on that association alone, right?


    And the answers are (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 11:23:43 AM EST
    How do we vet those applying for (none / 0) (#103)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 09:35:13 AM CST
    a visa to enter the country, and why is all the attention on a refugee process that takes up to three years

    Because it will be short cut for "humanitarian reasons."

    And because there is no existing database that is reliable.

    And it worked so well in the past that it was shut down so it could be "fixed."

    The discovery in 2009 of two al Qaeda-Iraq terrorists living as refugees in Bowling Green, Kentucky -- who later admitted in court that they'd attacked U.S. soldiers in Iraq -- prompted the bureau to assign hundreds of specialists to an around-the-clock effort aimed at checking its archive of 100,000 improvised explosive devices collected in the war zones, known as IEDs, for other suspected terrorists' fingerprints.......As a result of the Kentucky case, the State Department stopped processing Iraq refugees for six months in 2011


    "Another nut acting by himself."  Sure.  Of course.  When it happens here, we must quickly disassociate the shooter from any connection to radical messaging, right? "

     OK, you first.

    Or second.

    Maybe third.

    A fourth anyone?

    I could go on and on but I've made my point.

     But you would have us believe that Syrians fleeing constant war and brutal living conditions MUST BE potential terrorists because many of them are Muslim.

    Here are two lists of terrorist attacks. One successful and one foiled.

    Successful attacks.

    Foiled attacks.

    Note that the successful list does not show the Garland, TX attack.

    That's about 76 successful attacks and about 39 foiled. And that was using our very best vetting capabilities and accessing databases that were thought to be accurate and complete.

    No such databases exists on these 10,000.

    So yes, there are potential radical islamists in these groups.

    Finally, yes. There are potential terrorist among current US citizens of all races.

    The question is, why should we increase the risk and spend the money?

    Oh, I know! Your lord and master wants to do it so you must support it.


    "shortcut for humanitarian reasons" (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 02:34:17 PM EST
    Huh...where can I find support for that plan?  Or are you just reading minds again?

    As for the rest of your comment, you're just babbling.

    As usual.


    You do go on and on anyway, ... (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 02:42:38 PM EST
    jimakaPPJ: "I could go on and on but I've made my point."

    ... and yet all your blather is still underscored by a nonsensical and blatant double standard, by which the rest of us must respect white Christians for their diversity and not hold them collectively responsible for the actions of individuals, while you and your fellow white wingers are allowed to judge non-Christians and persons of color alike, not only in aggregate but also by stereotype.

    That's both asinine and immoral.


    This is it fir Donald (none / 0) (#90)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 08:44:45 AM EST
    No, really.   This is it.  I just heard this n teevee so it must be true.  This is really really really it.
    Making fun of a disabled person is finally definitely it.   We will look back and say, "this was it"

    One problem: the people who (none / 0) (#93)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 09:25:52 AM EST
    are eating up with glee all the racism and xenophobia Trump's been dishing up aren't going to have a problem with him making fun of a disabled person.  In fact, it's probably opened the door for a wave of hate directed at people who think they deserve special parking spaces, and force businesses to have to accommodate their needs.  How soon before there are physical attacks?  I'm betting some people can't wait for the first chance to dump someone out of a wheelchair - and for Trump to disavow any connection to anything he's said.

    He's taken the lid off a lot of hate, maybe a lot more than people realized was there; he'll never take any responsibility for the consequences, that we know, but there will be (have already been) consequences - and that's what I worry about.


    That is his appeal (5.00 / 6) (#113)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 11:59:43 AM EST
    He's taken the lid off a lot of hate.

    He has removed the constraints of decency and made it acceptable for many people to interject their racist views into conversations and to act on their hatred.

    People have often said "How did Germans allow Hitler to do what he did?" I am beginning to think it started just like what we are seeing here.


    I would say (none / 0) (#133)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 05:13:17 PM EST
    It absolutely started with just what we are seeing.  A charismatic lunatic exploiting people's fears and prejudice.  
    But I don't think you can put all this on Donald.   We have to accept responsibility.  And by "we" I mean the whole country.   The press particularly.   The Republican Party especially.  If he is so bad why don't the other candidates refuse to walk on a stage with him?  Why don't the press tell the truth?  Call him the liar he is?  Call out his lies with more than a limp softly worded question and no follow up?  Why don't the press simply refuse to cover him?  At all?  No call ins.  No interviews.  
    The press wont because he is good for business.  There is a thing now about how his campaign is "handling" the press.   They get put into "pens" at his events like dogs.  They are not allowed to speak to his followers    They are not even allowed to even go to the bathroom unescorted.  Why do they put up with it?  Why don't they simply refuse to cover him?
    Hitler exploited real problems in Germany.  He promised and actually to some extent delivered real solutions.  He made the trains run on time as they say.  We don't that kind of problems.  At least none that would warrant the radical actions he is suggesting.   Our economy isn't great but it's the best in the world.   ISIS or Mexicans pose no existential threat to us.  Donald is exploiting our latent hate and fear.  That's all.  And he is very good at it.
    No, I don't believe Donald will get near the levers of power but if he does we can blame ourselves.  As the man said, all politics is local.  I'm doing my part.  I'm calling it out.  As I said I have broken off contact with people I have known for years.  
    This last holiday my sister said "well, we can't just stop talking to people because they support a candidate we don't like"
    Yes.  I can.

    One othe thing (none / 0) (#134)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 05:26:52 PM EST
    What ever republicans say now as they shove each other out of the way getting to the fainting couch, if he wins the nomination they will support him.

    But will you support him (none / 0) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 04:27:21 PM EST

    Kasich then launched into a tirade about Trump, telling host Martha Raddatz that the blustery billionaire has insulted everyone during his campaign.

    "It's about having a leader who unifies the country," Kasich began. "I mean Trump has criticized and insulted women, Hispanics, Muslims, and reporters ... Martha, I know you're offended by this. We need a leader who brings us together, not a leader that's separating us, one group from another."

    Asked by Raddatz whether he would not support Trump if he were to get the GOP nomination, Kasich danced around the question, before stating it was a moot point.

    Two other things (none / 0) (#136)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 06:11:05 PM EST
    While we worry about Donald it's good to remember the rest are in no significant way different-

    As Rachel Maddow has reported this week, Ted Cruz is not disowning his endorsement from (kill the gays pastor) Swanson, and now he's openly consorting with forced-birth activist Troy Newman, whose Operation Rescue is infamous for links to clinic violence. Cruz has been gaining in the polls thanks to the deflation of Ben Carson, and these moves are intended to shore up his support with evangelicals

    There is a lot of happy talk (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 04:35:08 PM EST
    Around liberal blog world this afternoon because Chuck Terd explained to Donald that just because people say something doesn't make it true.

    Not so much discussed is the rest of the segment, which I unfortunately saw, where he does a long tortured equivalency between Hillary discussing her email and Donald discussing pretty much everything.   Pointedly touting a poll that said more people think Donald is honest than think Hillary is.

    Ironic that.  He makes a ridiculous false equivalence and the is amazed by that poll result.

    I made it to the point where Ben Carson, live from the ME explained why refugees should stay there.   And in fact WANT to stay there.  Had to go after that.


    I should have used the snark font (none / 0) (#96)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 09:42:23 AM EST
    It is not the end for Donald I'm afraid.   God knows it should be but it will not be.   I have to say though, the Donald phenom becomes more fascinating, at least to me, by the day.   It seems every day he again rips the scab off the festering republican mind.  I believe in the long term this may actually be a good thing.   A majority of the country is recoiling in disgust at the spectacle.   I think it's a sobering thing for some to see just how craven and ugly the open oozing sore that is the republican base is.   How can this man be leading in every poll?  How can they be flocking to hm autograph book in hand?  
    It's not rocket science actually.  They are a sad bunch of frightened hateful pathetic racist a$$holes.   I think for a while some could be forgiven for supporting him.  We are past that.  IMO.  I have stopped communicating with a couple of people who I have known for years.   Pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

    Donald may well do long term damage to the country but part of me thinks what he is doing, which literally is saying out loud what the republican base has dog whistled for decades, is a good thing.   There is no denying now who they are.   It's all on the table.


    Riding the rain train here in middle America (none / 0) (#91)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 08:56:49 AM EST
    It's been raining non stop since Thursday.  Look at a map.   It has not changed in days.   Won't today.   Perhaps on Sunday.   Not betting on it.

    I don't mind.  It's just rain.  They have ice to the west.   Kind of a gentle slow constant rain.   I like it.

    Temps though..... (none / 0) (#92)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 09:03:04 AM EST
    Temps are odd.    Usually the temp graph on the weather app is a roller coaster.   Up in the afternoon back down at night.

    Today it's a flatline.  43-44 for the whole 24 hour graph.


    And it's a sweaty humid 79 (none / 0) (#94)
    by CoralGables on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 09:30:16 AM EST
    and will be 80 in another few minutes. Just another average 2015 Fall day in South Florida.

    Can one troll rate... (none / 0) (#151)
    by sj on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 05:37:44 PM EST
    ...out of envy?

    Honestly (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 05:47:54 PM EST
    I'm not that envious of 80 and humid on Nov. 29th.   Not that crazy about hot and humid.   I guess I like seasonal changes.   Just when I get tired f it, it changes.

    Will all you people who (none / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:00:58 AM EST
    oppose the NSA's collection of telephone numbers  condemn this in the strongest possible terms??

    That's literally the phrase that leapt into my mind when I read the monumentally over-reaching idea posed by Nury Martinez, a 6th district Los Angeles city councilwoman, to access a database of license plates captured in certain places around the city, translate these license plates to obtain the name and address of each owner, and send to that owner a letter explaining that the vehicle was seen in, "an area known for prostitution.


    Dear Ms Martinez (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:29:32 AM EST
    Thank you so much for your helpful note.  I was completely unaware I had been driving through a area know for prostitution on my way to work.   I had been driving completely across town for this service.

    Thanks again and have a nice day.

    Do you know off hand where I can buy nickle bags?


    Not a bad idea, Howdy...but (none / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:32:40 AM EST
    Far from serving as, in the words of one proponent, a private "wake-up call," these letters will surely be the basis of insurance, medical, employment and other decisions, and such a list can be re-sold to public records companies, advertising mailing list companies... To paraphrase @MosheYudkowsky, there would be a chilling effect on commerce in the highlighted area, because who in their right mind would do business at any company located in that area? The list of unintended consequences is long.

    If they wanted to do this in areas (5.00 / 2) (#106)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:42:10 AM EST
    with heavily-Muslim communities, you'd think this was a brilliant idea.

    Good luck convincing anyone that you give a rat's a$$ about the intrusive and constitutionally questionable/prohibited surveillance being conducted by the NSA, because we already know that you're just fine with it if it's keeping an eye on people and groups you have a problem with.


    Your love for (none / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 01:48:57 PM EST
    everything done by Leftist/Democrats is something to behold.

    You must have meant that for (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Anne on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 02:43:50 PM EST
    someone who actually approves of the rampant and illegal spying being conducted by our government, because that's not me. Guess this means you're just making things up again, right, jim?

    Because you see, I was opposed to it when the Bush administration was doing it, and I opposed it when it was continued by the Obama administration.  I did not rationalize it as being okay just because it was now being conducted by a Democratic administration.

    I will continue to oppose it, no matter who does it.

    Just bite me, jim; you're just such a...well, you can read minds, so you can just fill in that blank, right?


    A License Plate Reader (5.00 / 3) (#121)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 01:22:57 PM EST
    ...is used on the Golden Gate Bridge to send toll bills to people who do not have the "FastPass" electronic billing.

    I drove my commercial vehicle across the bridge a lot of times, got a bill for every fourth or fifth trip.  I realized that my front license plate had been damaged by a minor bumper collision, and even though I could read it easily, the computer could not.

    I don't have that vehicle any more, but my current one has a minor "accidental" splash of mud on the front plate.  I refresh it after every rain.


    I ride a bicycle (none / 0) (#99)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:28:03 AM EST
    ...and I leave my cellphone at home.

    This keeps my lawful activities from being monitored.


    This isn't about your cellphone (none / 0) (#102)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 10:33:07 AM EST
    The cellphone (none / 0) (#120)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 01:03:54 PM EST
    ...tracks your movements even more than a license plate reader.  If a license plate reader bothers you, don't carry a phone.

    Three murder suspects accused of killing a man in my town recently were captured because they left a GPS trace all the way to Portland by stealing the victim's car and phone, both of which have GPS locators.  The police knew when they stopped moving, and even what building to find them in.


    Yes, Repack, we all know that (none / 0) (#123)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 01:47:17 PM EST
    But the comment is about LA using license plate readers and sending letters to the address on the registration.

    My comment is relevant (none / 0) (#131)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 04:14:51 PM EST
    the comment is about LA using license plate readers and sending letters to the address on the registration.

    My comment is about the government using its surveillance capabilities to monitor lawful activities.

    ...and THEN using its postal capacity to send a letter for the purpose of negatively affecting the life of a person observed conducting himself in a lawful manner.


    The local PD recently acquired a license (none / 0) (#139)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 08:52:54 PM EST
    for software from a company called "Vigilant Solutions."  What the software allows access to, without requiring that the PD buy license plate readers, is a private database of license plates and location data compiled from the 217,000 plate readers they have operating in Police Departments across America.

    On the company's website, a FAQ proudly describes a the reaction of a Mayor, somewhere, to their collection of data on people who had not been arrested or convicted of anything.  (Which is what they're doing.  Every plate they read, accompanied by geotemporal tags, goes into their central database.)  

    According to their FAQ, they proudly told the mayor that his license plate had been observed only in six places.

    Big Brother has been privatized.


    the col shooter prob rw terrorism (none / 0) (#137)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sat Nov 28, 2015 at 07:11:17 PM EST
    the shooter from Colorado was probably rw extremist  . . .

    It was likely from the very beginning . . .

    Nah (none / 0) (#140)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 05:51:30 AM EST
    It appears he has been mentally ill for quite some time,
    Associates with no one nor any group

    Just mentally ill, with a weapon


    Oh ... I did not know there was a diagnosis? (5.00 / 1) (#142)
    by christinep on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 11:53:55 AM EST
    trevor: You are winging it and making it up.  Etc.

    I am (none / 0) (#143)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 12:53:44 PM EST
    Pretty confident in that diagnosis.

    Isolated loner, doesn't like contact with people, to go out and murder people in a public setting, I would feel comfortable saying he has mental issues

    Is anyone surprised that Robert Lewis Dear, Jr is described by those who came into occasional contact with him as a reclusive loner ? He lived in a dilapidated trailer off the beaten path. His only political activity reported so far consists of once handing an anti-Obama pamphlet to a neighbor who had stopped by his trailer.

    In North Carolina he lived in a cabin in the woods on Black Mountain near Asheville, NC that had no electricity or running water.

    His neighbors, who barely had any contact with him, describe him as an unkempt reclusive malcontent who never appeared threatening (despite being 6'4" tall) and didn't express political opinions.


    Or (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by christinep on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 03:42:14 PM EST
    The "recluse" lived with a girlfriend in a trailer on land that he directly purchased after leaving his bright yellow rundown lodging (not dissimilar in appearance to economically depressed housing in the hollers of West Virginia, e.g.) The easy-to-see bright yellow ramshackle home stands near several neighboring homes ... but, then, maybe the neighbors are "recluses" as well. Yes, and the "recluse" seems to be asking $53K for that property as opposed to abandoning the property and as in line with what people conversant with reality might do.

    Point: Not much info to tell how mentally adept Robert Dear is.  Certainly, the brief comments in the first days describe him as seeming angry and/or keeping to himself and both strange and not strange (depending upon which comments are emphasized.)  The Wall Street Journal did quickly pull out the standard "recluse" story.

    I'd say that the personality assessment needs a bit more info to begin.  In that regard--and as I've noted here before--the more fascinating aspect is Dear's registering to vote in Colorado in the last year or so.  Perhaps, he registered as a "recluse" ... because maybe that is what all so-called mentally unstable "recluses" do; they want to participate in society by voting, huh?


    He (none / 0) (#145)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 03:52:46 PM EST
    Has mental problems.

    People can oppose abortion, and vote , without killing random people.

    Once they do that, I think it is safe to say they have mental issues.


    The exact same could be said for any terrorist (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by shoephone on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 04:11:04 PM EST
    Even Mike Huckabee called it terrorism, (none / 0) (#148)
    by shoephone on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 04:26:26 PM EST
    today on CNN.

    Granted (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by christinep on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 04:24:57 PM EST
    he would have mental "problems" ... because, how could those kinds of killings be otherwise. YET, as you must know, mental problems or being angry or being edgy or being not part of the crowd in no way equates with the medical or legal term that you first used: mentally ill.  There is no indication of any kind that he lacks the ability to discern right from wrong nor is there any reason to believe that he lacked the ability to appreciate fully what he was doing.

    Have you (none / 0) (#154)
    by TrevorBolder on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 05:58:58 PM EST
    Seen his mug shot.

    Based on everything stated about him,

    Yes, confident he is mentally ill.

    A mental illness is a condition that impacts a person's thinking, feeling or mood and may affect his or her ability to relate to others and function on a daily basis. Each person will have different experiences, even people with the same diagnosis.


    I (5.00 / 4) (#155)
    by FlJoe on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 06:24:58 PM EST
    Am confident that you are blowing smoke out of your nether regions.

    Even a highly trained psychiatrist could not, would not make such a diagnosis, from afar, based on scraps of information.


    Fits the Profile (none / 0) (#162)
    by TrevorBolder on Mon Nov 30, 2015 at 05:39:58 AM EST
    To a T

    So, in my unprofessional opinion,

    Someone who had lived for years without running water, electric, sewage, warned neighbors  to place metal roofs on their homes to prevent the government from spying on them, then goes and shoots random people

    I will comfortably say, he is mentally ill

    What I don't understand is the virulent pushback,

    He is crazy, just say it.  If you lived near someone that fit the above description, minus the killing spree, you would say the person is "not all there", a little off, then add in the killing, and you would say he is nuts.

    Why are you and others  so invested in this individual being called "sane"


    The "pushback" is not related to the (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 30, 2015 at 07:47:09 AM EST
    truth of whether this man is or isn't mentally ill, it is related to the willingness to make an armchair diagnosis.

    Of course (5.00 / 2) (#165)
    by Ga6thDem on Mon Nov 30, 2015 at 09:41:24 AM EST
    you're going to say he's crazy. He's a white male and therefore incapable of terrorism in your book.

    If the guy was yelling about baby parts obviously he was inspired by the rhetoric coming out of the GOP.


    re definition of terrorism (none / 0) (#141)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 10:37:59 AM EST
    my def of terrorism is using unlawful violence to get "your" way.

    Sometimes terror is practiced by nations sometimes by groups and sometimes by individuals who engage in things as minor as hate crimes on capitol hill in Seattle against someone they perceive as gay.  Sometimes it is engaged in by those who seem to be mentally well and sometimes by those who are less well mentally . . .

    A few weeks ago, there was in the news a crime committed after a few people exited a bar in Seattle and said to a bystander that he had nice shoes or nice boots or whatever it was he said. . . .  There were some terroristic attack on the day of the pride parade in Seattle . . . they simply did not kill anyone, just beat some people up . . .  These are very lame excuses for hate crimes it seems to me . . . are they always simply explained away on the grounds that the individuals acted alone and/or were mentally ill?

    I think most people I know are mentally ill in the sense of having irrational fears or concerns or believing they can get away with wrongdoing of various types . . .

    Do you have a different def of terror, if I may ask?  How about using violence or the threat of violence to instill fear about a course of action, and/or to destroy the ability to conduct a course of action or a state of being such as being Jewish or whatever?


    re the mcdonald shooting in chic (none / 0) (#156)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 09:05:36 PM EST
    the burger king manager is claiming that police got access to the video at his place and then deleted 86 minutes or so.  .  . .

    anyone with some ability for us to figure out if he is telling the truth or not, since others are claiming it did not happen.

    Why would he be lying about that?

    Alan Gross on 60 min (none / 0) (#157)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 09:12:27 PM EST
    there is an interview today with Alan Gross who was in cuba in prison for 5 years.  

    There are times in which certain nations have arrested and/or convicted or detained Americans for pointless reasons.  This one might have had some basis, but there is a fellow in Iran who visited some orphanages and other humanitarian work . . .  

    I somewhat think that some persons who are wrongly arrested, detained or convicted in some of these countries should become a cause for war . . .  I don't know if the Alan Gross meets my criteria, but the Iranian in prison does . . .

    We probably should have gone to war with N Korea few times in the last 15 years for this kind of thing.

    death penalty drugs (none / 0) (#158)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 09:45:47 PM EST
    re Tamar Rice (none / 0) (#159)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 09:51:38 PM EST
    are we all agreed that the Tamar Rice shooting was not justified and happened because police did not follow proper training and procedure and did not speak with Tamar before shooting him?

    I am not particularly a BLM guy but it seems that at least 2 or 3 or 4 of the recent AA deaths by cop have been unjustified . . .

    I don't think "you" can just shoot someone for having a gun in his hand, but some police seem to disagree .  . .

    Likewise, are we all agree that the McDonald shooting was unjustified?  Not saying it was 1st degree murder, just that you can't just shoot someone for walking around with a knife and having gouged some tires.

    are the police corrupt in Chicago? (none / 0) (#160)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Sun Nov 29, 2015 at 10:23:01 PM EST
    the news out of Chicago is getting worse . . .

    we have seen one video and it turns out that there are actually at least 5 videos . . . and miracle of miracles, the audio on all 5 videos has gone bad . . . there is some audio for things such as sirens, but not of the conversations, warnings or the gunshots.

    the police union spokesman put out a false narrative of the shooting within a short time of the shooting  . . .

    It took the authorities 13 months to charge the shooter with murder, the charges coming, coincidentally, after the judge insisted on the release of the video, one that Chic had been trying to not release  . . .

    Living in Seattle has its advantages, I think . . .

    Trump helping Demos? (none / 0) (#161)
    by zaitztheunconvicted on Mon Nov 30, 2015 at 01:31:18 AM EST
    Apparently there are approximately 7 Rep senators in states won by Obama in 2012 who are running for election in 2016.  Or it is 7 if we include an open seat or two.

    Every few days, when Trump says some dumb thing, the media go to the senator or candidate and ask him if he agrees with Trump their poss Rep candidate for Pres.

    The gop can figure out a way to distance themselves from Trump or be blown back into minority status . . . it seems . . .

    Trump will be an anti-voter magnet . . . 60% of voters regard him unfavorably and about 30% of Rep  voters say they won't vote for him.

    Well, my real question is whether or not there are  some new groups of people Trump can insult or demean . . . After the blacks, Mexicans, women in general, Iowans, Adventists, people who speak Spanish, people who emit blood at times, who else could there be?