French Cops Close in on Brothers Who May Have Hostage

As of this morning Paris police got all geared up to conduct an attack operation near Paris where they believe the two suspects in the Charlie Hebdo murders are staked out in a small printing company. Evidently, the brothers are believed to be holed up inside the business with a hostage.

While others say they heard shots and that two people were killed and more injured, the Paris prosecutor's office denies this part.

Stay tuned, it should happen pretty fast now, but I've got to get some sleep. (3:17 a.m. here.)

This thread is open to aspects of the Charlie Hebdo killings.

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    At the moment (none / 0) (#1)
    by lentinel on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 05:18:35 AM EST
    the murderers are holed up in a printing company building. They have one hostage. (6am EST)

    The fact that they have a hostage complicates things for the police who are concerned for his/her safety.

    The murderers have expressed their desire to die.

    What I wonder is whether there is some kind of gas that the police could shoot into the building - through a vent or a duct  - that would put them all to sleep - and then the police could enter and apprehend the murderers and bring the hostage to safety.

    This is eerily like the attack in Boston - where the "alleged" killers fled to a neighboring community - hijacking cars as they go.

    My fervent wish is that the hostage is spared.

    Vlad used weaponized aerosol fentanyl (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 06:46:53 AM EST
    to deal with the Chechen separatist theatre mess.  It killed more hostages than the separatists.

    I just (none / 0) (#30)
    by lentinel on Sat Jan 10, 2015 at 09:58:50 AM EST
    was wondering if there was a gas that was colorless and odorless that exists that puts people to sleep before they know what's happening.

    If so, it could be of great use in hostage situations.

    Apparently, the gas you cite does not meet those criteria...

    But it seems to me it would be worth developing.


    Can we call them (none / 0) (#6)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 07:31:31 AM EST
    Terrorists now?

    Seems like we've moved past common criminal activity if the separate incidents are linked together and now some are calling for themselves to be martyred.

    You seem to me to purposely using the word murderer for some reason.


    Call them (none / 0) (#26)
    by lentinel on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 12:45:56 PM EST
    whatever the hel! you want.

    The mess is spreading, BTW. (none / 0) (#3)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 06:49:52 AM EST
    Hostages in a nearby Kosher market and at least one other cop killed by an associate of the brothers.

    BFM TV is reporting (none / 0) (#4)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 06:57:21 AM EST
    that the man suspected of killing policewoman Clarissa Jean-Philippe in Montrouge yesterday is holding five hostages, including women and children, at a kosher supermarket near the Porte de Vincennes in the 20th arrondissement in Paris, Jon Henley reports from Paris.

    The suspect reportedly told police officers at the scene: "You know who I am."

    The channel said at least one person has been injured.


    Here's the link to the Porte de Vincennes (none / 0) (#5)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 07:02:11 AM EST
    story on BFMTV.  (French language)

    Listening to Morning Joe (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 07:40:22 AM EST
    Remember how sophisticated the Boston Bombers were in the wee hours?  Today they are the makers of crude bombs, but these guys...these guys are the epitome of scary trained terrorists.

    I read that the brothers were on our no fly list.  I also read they spent the summer in Syria.  Trained though?  Not seeing scary sophisticated training.  Just because you can shoot and kill peaceful persons in a relatively peaceful society and you can take some of those same peaceful persons hostage as well, that doesn't equal sophistication or accomplished.

    They are definitely (none / 0) (#9)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 08:16:34 AM EST
    Over doing it but if authorities are correct the two brothers have direct ties to AQ and received some training.

    Now we are learning that the brothers are connected to the other hostage situation and the policewomen killed last night.

    If all true then it seems to me this was probably planned ahead of time and maybe it went wrong.

    What will tell us more is if they allow themselves to be captured and we learn anything afterwards.


    One brother went to Yemen (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 09:00:59 AM EST
    They both went to Syria this summer.  Why are they doing this in the name of AQ in Yemen and not IS?

    I don't see the same fear inspiring affiliations that many see because who we are all affiliated with are choices we each make.  Did they not like or agree with IS?  Did they feel AQ in Yemen would respect them more?  Did IS make them dishwashers :)

    I still don't consider them well trained.  Having some familiarity with an AK does not equal extensive training in what I term extensive training.  One brother is a fitness instructor, fine...we are all free to be in shape though health and age permitting.  My husband goes to PT every morning.

    I guess what I have witnessed as being well trained is very different from what Morning Joe considers well trained :). The kind of well trained the Kouachi brothers are though is a level that any American can achieve alone age and health permitting.  It can easily be accomplished with zero exposure to a terrorist organization.

    I swear to God some talking fruitcake head on MSNBC just compared them to James Bond :)


    I agree that they weren't well trained (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 09:29:39 AM EST
    But they were "trained" enough to kill 12 and injure more and scare the &6(0 out of western journalist so that they will continue to bend to the demands of Sharia law.

    And does it matter that they are al Qaeda instead of ISIS??

    All of these groups have one common enemy. And the enemy is western civilization and societal norms.


    I could train, plan, and arm myself well (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 09:50:31 AM EST
    Enough to kill 12 unarmed artistic individuals in the middle of a creative discussion, and wound everyone else.  It wasn't a monumental achievement requiring expert skill.

    And yes, it is significant as to why they have been "trained" by two terrorist organizations and they chose to shun the most recent affiliation.  Too much implied  "mysticism" about terrorists, turning them into Hitchcock clowns under the bed instead of fallible humans with sociopathic tendencies.


    Did they not (none / 0) (#24)
    by smott on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 12:27:48 PM EST
    Get by armed police guards MT?
    Or have I read that wrong?....

    Anyway would it not suggest some level of sophistication?


    There was one body guard killed (none / 0) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 12:42:51 PM EST
    Who was Charb's body guard.  Charlie Hebdo had had police protection until about a month ago.  The police officers that were killed were pulling up in their car and the shooters almost collided with them running from the building.  I believe they were killed in their car at that point but not sure.  The other officer killed was outside the building on a bike.

    From what I read the door to the building required a number code and the shooters waited for someone to enter the building and attached themselves at gunpoint.  After entering the building they did not know which offices belonged to Charlie Hebdo.


    I'm not reading that they (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 01:01:53 PM EST
    Got the police officers in the car.  They killed an officer on a bike patrol, and Charb's body guard.

    I'm giving them nothing mystic, just noting (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 01:01:12 PM EST
    what they accomplished. And why they shunned ISIS is of no importance. They did. They trained. They killed.

    Whatever :) (none / 0) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 01:22:18 PM EST
    Does matter, in the grand scheme when lobbying for a great fear to come swallow us all whole.

    You know, an educated lizard brain works slightly better Jim than the one running from specificity in order to immediately roll around in fight or flight adrenalin :)


    one attended an AQAP training camp (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 10:48:25 AM EST
    in Yemen. ISIS is not AQ in Yemen. ISIS is not behind the Hebdo attack. Have authorities brought up the AQ-JaN Khorasan group yet?

    They were both with ISIS too Jeralyn (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 10:51:06 AM EST
    This summer

    Why pledge allegiance to AQ and not IS?  Their last extremist group exposure was IS.  And IS has called for attacks on France.  Why did they ditch IS?


    Because they are different groups (none / 0) (#19)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 11:27:40 AM EST
    and AQ and ISIS were enemies this summer and remain enemies.

    So why did they join ISIS? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 11:33:43 AM EST
    I know the groups don't get along, but...the dedicated affiliation of the brothers is a bit questionable.  They can yell any name they want to while killing people, but obviously it was a matter of choice for them, not dedication to anything.  They come off as ambiguous, just wanting to hurt people.

    the question is not whether they (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 12:00:24 PM EST
    admired or supported ISIS but whether ISIS was behind or involved in their attack, and I've seen no evidence to suggest ISIS involvement (as opposed to after the fact approval.) Just like the Sydney killer claimed to be an ISIS supporter and ISIS had nothing to do with that situation. I'm done addressing this.

    I completely disagree with you (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 12:07:17 PM EST
    On the "behind" thing, and finally MSNBC had an expert on that I agreed with who pointed out also that the Kouachi affiliations are all over the road, and he said they belong to an emerging subgroup of individuals doing the same thing who really only want to kill people.  That's the goal.

    Suspects on US Watch Lists for Years (none / 0) (#8)
    by Mr Natural on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 07:42:31 AM EST
    Unfortunately, the lists are big freakin' secrets...  The Guardian story.

    Both suspects have been killed (none / 0) (#13)
    by jbindc on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 10:36:46 AM EST
    Link with no autoplay video (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 10:51:10 AM EST
    at New York Times here. (Please try to use links without autoplaying videos, they are so annoying and people may be reading this at work or in courtrooms.)

    The market hostage situation (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 10:41:44 AM EST
    Being reported over too, that suspect also dead.  So far all hostages reported being alive and safe.

    here's the updating Guardian site (none / 0) (#18)
    by leap on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 10:59:58 AM EST
    Sadly police and/or press jumped the gun... (none / 0) (#20)
    by gbrbsb on Fri Jan 09, 2015 at 11:28:46 AM EST
    ... And they are now reporting from police sources that at least 4 hostages are dead and the gunman but not a word on his pretty accomplice.

    It seems the police may not have correctly co-ordinated the twin strikes. The grocery gunman was in contact with the Charlie Hebdo killers at the printing press and had threatened to kill the hostages if the police attacked the brothers. The police cut communications but launched the strikes with 10 or so minutes between instead of the simultaneously which with no contact could have spooked the gunman giving him time to fulfil his threat. Seems the police also miscalculated how many were being held in the store even though they had hacked into its CCTV and were able to observe the situation inside.

    So many lessons to be learnt with this ending both for police forces around the world and unfortunately for future would be terrorists too!