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State of the Union

How is Obama doing? I'm just tuning in to the State of the Union. (Added: the full text of his speech is here.)

Update: Obama seems re-energized, confident and relaxed. Other points:

Lots of red states, blue states, United States stuff.

Criminal Justice: The crime rate and numbers of prisoners has declined at the same time. We need to keep reforming our criminal justice system. He uses the example of a father whose son is harassed by police, and a woman waiting for her police officer to come home after his shift. It seemed like there was louder applause for the police officer's wife.

It's time to close Gitmo." (He actually says Gitmo rather than Guantanamo.)[More...]

Two years free college for everyone.

Standing ovation for "We will hunt down terrorists" all over the world. "We lead best when we combine military power with smart diplomacy; when we leverage our power with coalition building."

We're helping the moderate rebels fight Syria. On to diplomacy and then Cuba: When what you've been doing for the last 50 years hasn't worked, it's time" to do something different. Camera cuts to released Cuban prisoner Alan Groves in the audience.

Immigration reform.

He has nothing to prove, he's not running again.

All in all, the parts I saw were pretty good.

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  • Display: Sort:
    "I'm not a scientist either" (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Chuck0 on Tue Jan 20, 2015 at 09:24:49 PM EST
    But I know a lot of them. Great line on climate change. Of course, crickets from the knuckle draggers on the right.

    Knuckle Draggers (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 04:03:27 AM EST
    Guess I'm one of those.

    Me and the other thousand or so scientists who don't believe the latest theory of climate change.

    I say latest because I can't keep up with the changing story.   The story of why the models are always wrong, the heats in the ocean then it's not, the climate changing so fast but now it's more moderate.  Don't think in the short term now just trust us.

    In any other scientific theory the story would of course change to be proven (because I thought it was science after all) but because the proponents are ready to save the world already let's skip that part of science and if you have any questions about it you must be stupid.

    Moving the Goal Posts

    If applying science to a theory makes me a Knuckle Dragger so be it.

    Parent

    Also (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 04:49:42 AM EST
    You can't make up this kind of hypocrisy...

    1700 Private Jets fly to Davos

    Not being a Knuckle Dragger sure has it's perks.  

    Parent

    Slado you're not a knuckledragger, but, (none / 0) (#21)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 05:59:13 AM EST
    Rather than going into a long dissertation explaining why you're wrong writing this sort of nonsense; let me try with an apt, imo, analogy:

    Suppose Jonas Salk was a two-bit gambler, adulterer, and, all around scoundrel. Would you deny your children his life-saving polio vaccine because of his character flaws?

    I'm quite certain there have been many, many individuals throughout history who have made great and, positive contributions to mankind while, simultaneously, being not-so-nice people.

    Parent

    This is worth saving. (none / 0) (#22)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 06:03:54 AM EST
    for future use.  At an "Animal Farm" like time.

    Parent
    There is no other animal that is your equal (none / 0) (#27)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:05:56 AM EST
    here, WEC.

    As for knuckle-draggers, that is too kind a term for climate denialists.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#28)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:07:35 AM EST
    That we must resort to these types of analogies seems to say it all to me.

    Why not just compare me to  holocaust denier?

    How about we file this one away as we agree to disagree.

    Parent

    I would (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by lentinel on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 05:57:13 AM EST
    love it is the climate change disaster scenario was bogus.

    However, as a scientist, to what would you attribute the fact that the earth endured its hottest temperatures in history - as reported in the NYTimes?

    Was it not actually that hot?

    Was the report in the Times based on incorrect information?

    Or are you simply saying that it's happening, but we don't know why?

    I have little respect for authority.
    I don't believe everything I read.
    I am used to governmental agencies lying to us.

    So I am willing to listen.

    Tell me about the part of science that you believe is being "skipped" in order to produce this doomsday scenario.

    Your turn.

    Parent

    It is another data point (none / 0) (#26)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 06:56:53 AM EST
    In a string of many that if taken at face value seems to support your theory.

    However NASA now admits there is only a 38% chance that 2014 was the hottest year.

    Link

    So let the debate continue.

    Parent

    Bad link (none / 0) (#30)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:09:55 AM EST
    Better one

    LINK

    Parent

    Townhall dot com (none / 0) (#33)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:31:02 AM EST
    for all your environmental news.  

    They got it wrong on the Arctic sea ice, BTW, here's the latest report on it:

    Sea ice extent in December averaged 12.52 million square kilometers (4.83 million square miles). This is 540,000 square kilometers (208,495 square miles) below the 1981 to 2010 long-term average of 13.06 million square kilometers (5.04 million square miles) and 500,000 square kilometers (193,051 square miles) above the record low for the month observed in 2010.

    And they trotted out the old Newsweek article about the possibility of global cooling back in 1975.  That really proves their point.

    Thanks for demonstrating that what J.S. Mill wrote almost 150 years ago is still true today:

    I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid; I meant, that stupid persons are generally Conservative. I believe that to be so obvious and undeniable a fact that I hardly think any hon. Gentleman will question it.

    John Stuart Mill, in a Parliamentary debate with the Conservative MP, John Pakington (May 31, 1866). Hansard, vol 183, col 1592. Pakington was referring to Footnote 3 to Chapter 7 of Mill's "Considerations on Representative Government".



    Parent
    Newsbusters (none / 0) (#31)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:14:13 AM EST
    That's a real unbiased source.  Lots of WATB's complaining about librils ruining things, like one article "blaming" the "lack of decorum" at the SOTU speech on poor Congressman Joe Wilson.

    You really know how to pick em, Slado.

    Parent

    Classic (none / 0) (#35)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:53:59 AM EST
    Don't like the source discount the link and move on.

    Was the NASA gun 38% sure or not?

    Parent

    Sorry, slado (none / 0) (#44)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 08:29:04 AM EST
    but their agenda seems clear, and it isn't being an unbiased news source.  

    As for the 38%, I don't know how that figure was arrived at, but it is clear that with the recent weather problems of drought in the American West, along with massive cold weather systems coming straight from the Arctic regions all the way down to the American South, that we aren't seeing normal weather patterns  taking place here.

    As for evidence, there are glaciers throughout the world that have significantly melted in the last few decades due to AGW, you can see a gallery of them here.

    So, what am I to believe?  Newsbusters, or those lying glaciers?

    Parent

    All of the data (none / 0) (#46)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 08:58:03 AM EST
    What bothers me about this debate is both sides select the date that proves their point.

    But one must remember those proposing a Scientific theory have the burden of proof not those that are questioning it.

    If you would like a more serious website to read actual scientific work and serious skepticism about claims by pro global warming scientists try this one...

    Icecap

    Maybe I'm wrong but maybe you are too. Only one of us is proposing totally changing our economy and way of life based on their understanding of the science.   Something that would absolutely be required if we were truly going to turn back the clock.

    If the claims made by those who are most serious or even alarmist on this subject are true then were are already too late anyway and even more practically we in the US will get little support from the rest of the developing world who have bigger problems than warmer weather.

    Let's not hijack this thread. Agree to disagree.

    Parent

    Yes, if we go to renewable sources (none / 0) (#49)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 09:09:56 AM EST
    And stop putting CO2 into the atmosphere, that would be devastating, if you're one of the Koch brothers.

    Tell, me Slado, what would be the downside of switching from fossil fuels?  You're good at fear-mongering, but that's all you have.

    Parent

    Well are economy would collapse (none / 0) (#56)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 09:26:20 AM EST
    The amount of money we would have to spend right now to switch immediately nonfossil feels would be so astronomical that it's completely impractical.

    So I assume you're saying we should slowly switch but the problem is with gas getting cheaper renewables are now even less attractive economically.

    The reasonable position is to continue using fossil fuels and explore all forms of energy and take them on when they make economic sense.

    But that's not good enough for those who think the planet is going to burn up.  So we get fear mongering from the activists that a total cataclysm is only a few years away.  Of course I've been hearing that for 20 years.

    While I'm skeptical of the science I'm still a practical person. I work in an industry where energy efficiency makes me more money so you'd be surprised how many times I've told people that it's better to go green.     However when that opinion was put forth it was not because I feared for the life of my children down the road but because it made sense for the customer in the long run.

    Any real solution of course would take this type of practicality. However the skeptic in me sees it's not really about a solution because the activist don't have a viable one.

    What about the poor and developing nations thart can't afford renewable solutions? Are they to just sit back and stay in poverty?  Hardly.

    When you come up with that economic solution for this mess that is more than partisan talking points I'll be ready to listen.

    Till then I'll support business as usual.

    Parent

    See my comment in the Wed open thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 09:46:41 AM EST
    As Jim has reminded us, this is not an open topic thread.

    Parent
    Lame Duck Syndrome (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Dadler on Tue Jan 20, 2015 at 09:26:01 PM EST
    Such the strong voice now that he has nothing to risk or lose and has lost both houses of Congress. Nice, and essentially useless. Funny how when Wall Street needed a trillion, they didn't have to beg anyone for a tax increase or hope we approved, they essentially just got it. Now that normal people need money, we have to go beg and plead and hope they can pass a tax increase. Lovely. Not that I think there shouldn't be a tax increase on the top, just that, you know, it really shows how right wing economic paradigms run the show, no matter the party in power.

    Why can't anyone just tell the American people the truth: as a nation sovereign in our own currency, it is a fact, like the earth being a sphere is a fact, that the federal government CANNOT go financially bankrupt. It's just a rigged board game that needs rules that are equitably enforced for all. You just design the game so that people can still get wealthy through any number of means, but the "losers" in the game (which means, in this day and age, almost all the rest of us) are offered an overly humane and overly generous floor that provides worth if necessary. Constantly tweak so that floor stays strong and generous, keep those folks working for a better country, and the rich can keep sucking on their own joints -- maybe, you know, they can't get quite so right, like now, that it destroys the country.

    That, it seems to me, would be the best thing we could offer ourselves, and the world.

    But that's just facts and logic. The economy is run on graft and lies.

    Sigh...

    that provides WORK if necessary... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Tue Jan 20, 2015 at 09:27:34 PM EST
    ...oy. Proofreading is your friend, proofreading is your friend...

    Parent
    The Onion: (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Mr Natural on Tue Jan 20, 2015 at 10:24:43 PM EST
    `Well, Here's What Won't Pass,' President Says Before Listing 35 Proposals

    At press time, an advance copy of the Republican rebuttal to the address revealed that the party's official response will be "Yup.  You Betcha!"


    The joke's on The Onion. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 12:28:18 AM EST
    We gots yer official GOP response, right here!

    Parent
    It's such a tiring spectacle. (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jbindc on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:35:15 AM EST
    An hour long infomercial with little substance or details. Add in the "pregame analysis", the out-party response, and the analysis of that, and it's pretty much an entire evening of navel gazing.

    I wish we could just go back to the days of POTUS submitting a report to Congress and be done with it.

    Putting money where the mouth is (etc.) (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by christinep on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 01:43:22 PM EST
    My favorite part of this SOU was the reality of a confident President directly addressing  actual steps--as in real, tangible, workable--to act for the middle class via significant tax relief AND to define how to pay for it.  By proposing a capital gains tax increase for income over $500K together with removing the "step-up basis" loophole for inheritances, the President spelled it out clearly.  

    It is a step; a good step.  Should we wonder whether the Repubs have any steps at all in this area ... maybe (hoo ha) the media will deign to quiz Repub critics of the President's middle class push about the what & the how.  Other than magic ... that would be cause for the popcorn.

    In any event, President Obama set the stage for a full throttle populist discussion during the next two years and for the 2016 campaign.  In so doing, he also set the stage for a "put up or shut up" strategy in pressing Repubs on answering the populist surge reportedly growing in our country.

    Or. more likely (none / 0) (#107)
    by jbindc on Thu Jan 22, 2015 at 10:41:30 AM EST
    He knows that many of his proposals will get nowhere near the House or Senate floors and since no one expects them to anyway, there won't be a media push on the Republicans.  These were Hail Mary passes by someone who knows not much is going to get done in the next two years, so as all presidents do in his same position, adopted the "Let's throw everything out there and hope that something sticks" philosophy.

    Parent
    Not a pass, jbindc -- (none / 0) (#115)
    by christinep on Thu Jan 22, 2015 at 03:29:47 PM EST
    Hail Mary nor Quarterback Sneak nor any other label.  More likely, it is a positioning ... an agenda orchestration for the 2016 election.  Again, my favorite part: Starting the pressure for the Repubs to be just a tad more specific about what they would do to help the middle class that they profess to represent and how they would pay for it beyond reference to the tried & failed "trickle down" fiasco approach.  

    Meanwhile, what about the bumbling fiasco today with the Repubs aborted anti-abortion legislation ....  Curious how they plan to handle immigration legislation as well....  Yep, President Obama has every reason to enjoy his new 50% approval rating as he watches the Repubs stumble out of the starting gate.  Who is controlling the agenda now, hmmmm? :)

    Parent

    His new 50% aporoval (none / 0) (#122)
    by jbindc on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 11:49:00 AM EST
    Made up mostly of people he lost before.  That's not gaining ground, that's catching up. Where was he with all these ideas until now?

    And yep, we all know Obama talks a good game. No argument there. It's positioning for his legacy, not necessarily about 2016.

    Parent

    Or, another way of looking at this (none / 0) (#130)
    by jbindc on Wed Jan 28, 2015 at 07:29:43 AM EST
     Yep, President Obama has every reason to enjoy his new 50% approval rating as he watches the Repubs stumble out of the starting gate

    Is that he's really not that connected at all. Still looks like a Hail Mary pass to secure his legacy, which is all that matters to him.

    President Obama delivered his penultimate State of the Union with renewed confidence, eager to take credit for the economy's recent growth spurt. He offered few olive branches to Republicans for their landslide victory two months earlier; articulated a panoply of liberal proposals that stand little chance of passing through Congress; and took the rosiest possible view of the economy and international landscape--even in the face of contrary evidence. In the moment, it's a savvy political play: Claim credit for an improving public mood and force Republicans on the defensive.

    But despite the hoopla, recent polling shows that the public is much more in sync with the GOP's agenda than the White House's. This month's NBC/WSJ survey illustrated a striking disconnect between the president's improving approval rating (at 46 percent, up 2 points since November) and the top priorities of the American electorate. In the survey, 85 percent of voters rank "creating jobs" as a top priority, followed by defeating and dismantling ISIS (74 percent), reducing the federal deficit (71 percent), securing the border with Mexico (58 percent), and addressing Iran's nuclear program (56 percent). The last four are core GOP strengths; polls consistently show Republicans with an edge on those issues.

    SNIP

    That disconnect will be driving the upcoming presidential election, which will provide a decisive verdict on the sustainability of Obama's accomplishments. Obama, as he ad-libbed in the State of the Union, couldn't help but brag that he won two elections as proof of his mandate. The GOP also won a historic number of seats in Congress, capitalizing on public anger over his policies. Rather than move to the middle and compromise with Republicans, Obama appears intent on playing to his party's progressive base in the run-up to the 2016 elections - and pass along that legacy to Hillary Clinton's nascent campaign. It's a gamble that will determine whether his landmark legislation will remain law, or be rolled back by a new Republican president.

    Obama should recognize how much of his post-election bump is being driven by forces outside of his control. The president is eagerly taking credit for the improved economy, even though little has passed legislatively in recent years. It wasn't long ago that he was blaming GOP intransigence for the slow growth. Now he's betting his remaining political capital that the encouraging economic trends will continue into next year--hardly a guarantee, given the history of false starts in the past.



    Parent
    Free Community College (2.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 04:24:35 AM EST
    I'll just say it.  A terrible idea.

    A terrible idea if the plan is just to hand out money which from all I can see so far is the extent of the planning.

    Make something free and it loses value.  Taught us that in economics.

    Where  will that money go?  New buildings, more teachers, better books and equipment?  

    Right now it appears it's nothing more then a handout to colleges who will eagerly spend the money.  On what?  Who knows.

    Is there even a demand?   Right now according to Slate 18% of community college students graduate.

    Do we really need more students?  It can't simply be economics.  

    Maybe we should fix the issue that students come out of High School unprepared for college.

    Luckily it will never happen but the total lack of forethought and scrutiny by others for this "plan" is remarkable.

    This is such a blatant example of giveaway politics no one can actually be taking it seriously.

    The Germans have free higher (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:08:49 AM EST
    Education for all of their citizens,  if we Americans weren't so busy trying to be the world's policeman, perhaps we could afford such a policy as well.

    Parent
    Perhaps we could (none / 0) (#36)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:55:42 AM EST
    But that's not the system we have.

    So if you apply Obamas proposal to the system we have it makes zero economic sense and will have zero impact on overall education.

    Parent

    It Would Only Help... (5.00 / 1) (#67)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 11:47:18 AM EST
    ...raise the education level in the US, and who needs that, the deep south is what we as a nation should strive for.  The economic epicenter of the United States.

    'Make something free and it loses value', where in the F did you get that non-sense.  Are we to believe that high school educations are worthless, roads, parks, and everything else that is essentially 'free' in that it's paid for with taxes, are worthless ?  Yah, OK, roger that.

    Get a grip, an educated country is a prosperous country.  It's how we get inventions like computers, satellites, cell phones, rockets, and the other zillion inventions that were a direct result of educated people.  Who knows where we would be if poor people were afforded a better educations, but without a doubt, we would a better nation.

    Parent

    People who believe in all honesty (none / 0) (#88)
    by jondee on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 03:31:56 PM EST
    that if we had just had MORE deregulation leading up to 2007 we wouldn't have had a recession, should just opt out of discussions about what "makes economic sense". But of course they never will..

     

    Parent

    Re: graduation rate (5.00 / 4) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:22:32 AM EST
    A lot of people don't graduate from community college because community college is not their end goal. Their goal is to go on to another college and they just use community college as a stepping stone to get there. I know plenty of people from my high school class who went to a community college because they could not get accepted into a four year institution and went there for two years and did not graduate simply because this particular community college had stupid requirements to get a diploma there. So they went for two years and then went on to a four year college.

    Those 18% who are graduating are people who want some sort of two year degree.

    Parent

    If you read the rest of the link (none / 0) (#37)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 07:58:50 AM EST
    To your point the overall graduation rate for people to continue on to for your colleges 40%.

    Again that is pretty low and seems like we don't have an overall demand for more students to go through community college.

    Like I said in another post what worries me is we are sending thousands of kids into the college system totally unprepared for what college and even community college require to be successful.

    If we make it free for everyone how low will the standards have to be?  These are just questions mind you not my statements or opinions.

    It just seems like a very loose pie-in-the-sky political offer from Obama with very little thought of how and why it should be executed.  More skeptically it is simply a partisan talking point.

    Parent

    I have found (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 08:15:31 AM EST
    that community colleges fill a void where the tech schools have not picked up. I went to a community college at one point in time just to learn some computer courses. Am I included in that statistic? I had no intention of graduating since I already had a four year degree.

    Perhaps it won't work or maybe it will work but maybe it's worth trying. We keep hearing from conservatives that the problem with America is the workforce. So he's an attempt at a solution to that problem.

    The problem with people being unprepared is due to the states. Since I live in Georgia where we don't "need no education" I see that as a problem here at the state level. This has been an ongoing problem in Georgia for quite a while now and no one has offered any solution to the problem unless you consider turning schools into churches as a solution to the education problem here.

    Parent

    When I was in college (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by jbindc on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 08:30:13 AM EST
    I took an accounting class at the local community college one summer so I could enter the business school at my university in the fall. I certainly didn't graduate from there because I didn't need to.  And maybe that's the point - school that can be free or inexpensive for people who may need to take a couple of classes and may not need a degree.

    Parent
    There is no bigger supporter of education then me (none / 0) (#48)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 09:06:08 AM EST
    Having worked in construction for the last 20 years I have been in and out of schools and worked side-by-side with principles and other people in public schools and I understand how hard they work and what a task they have.

    However I am also a huge proponent of charter schools and other ideas to shake up what is obviously a system that needs fixing but is not broken.

    The problem I have with Obama's proposal is it doesn't really address any educational issues it's simply gives students money to start on a path they may not be prepared for.

    And the skeptics in Macy's the same thing that we see in higher education happening at the lower levels as schools gobble up this money and use it not for students but for their own building and campus improvements.

    More details and maybe I can be swung the other way but I would assume free community college doesn't mean you get to take a free class on a couple subjects here and there (classes I have gladly lent my free time for in teaching) I got the impression it meant you must treat it as a two year degree so that you can go to a four year college.

    Again it does not seem the demand is there for that.

    More details Obama more details.

    Parent

    Here are some (none / 0) (#53)
    by jbindc on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 09:17:49 AM EST
    Obama's community college plan

    Is it perfect?  No, but at least he has an idea to explore instead of just throwing up his hands and saying "We can't afford this!" (Or saying that rich people and big banks need more help). The problem is - we can't afford NOT to do this.

    And charter schools???  Don't get me started.

    Parent

    I hate to tell (none / 0) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 09:23:34 AM EST
    you but we have charter schools here in GA and they've largely failed with having a problem with them cheating the tax payers out of money. They had to take the schools away from the charter system and turn them back into public schools. here in my county they opened a charter school bailing out a failed private school and the charter company charges the tax payers of my county one million dollars a year in consulting fees. So if you think no better results at higher costs are a goal then yes, charter schools are the answer.

    The problem is not the teachers or the administration here in GA. The problem is the general attitude that education is "elitist"  and the rabid fundamentalism that encourages that mindset. Education is not a priority for a lot of the parents either unfortunately.

    Well, I guess we'll see when more details are forthcoming. I would actually hope that it would help people retrain or learn new skills that you don't necessarily need a degree to get.

    Parent

    I don't see how someone (none / 0) (#90)
    by jondee on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 03:58:03 PM EST
    who refuses to accept the research findings of the overwhelming majority of scientists and qualified educators in the world can call themselves a "supporter of education".

     

    Parent

    Well that is because (none / 0) (#96)
    by Slado on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 06:14:50 PM EST
    You are blinded by partisanship.

    Professors, scientists and educated people of all stripes are skeptical but you've decided they're wrong and because you feel so certain you've completely closed your mind to descent.

    It amazes me how the left treats climate change as a religious and moral issue rather then serious scientific debate.   Something you have to do when you're not interested in debate getting in the way of policies.

    Parent

    I'm blinded by common sense (none / 0) (#110)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 22, 2015 at 02:11:17 PM EST
    when the overwhelming majority of the world's scientists, including many Nobel Prize winners, say something, I tend to give them the benefit of a doubt..

    I know it's a mistake, but I don't check with Reason, Milton Friedman, Grover Norquist and the Pope first..

    I don't worry about how increase in knowledge and understanding will adversely effect that unerring Holy-of-Holies, the Market..

    Also, if you're still adhereing to your "the consensus of scientists means nothing" warmed-over talking point, give me ONE EXAMPLE of another current scientific hypothesis with overwhelming support that you take issue with for being simply a "partisan" issue.

    One example. I doubt you can.  

    Parent

    I love it (none / 0) (#111)
    by jondee on Thu Jan 22, 2015 at 02:14:14 PM EST
    they don't like science, so science becomes "left" when it gets in the way of backward-looking Dogma and the Market.

    Parent
    Science doesn't (none / 0) (#116)
    by Slado on Thu Jan 22, 2015 at 11:45:07 PM EST
    Work by majority.

    Not accepting the "consensus" that AGW is proven or proven enough should not discredit the intelligence of that person.

    You sir originally said my opinion on this subject which has nothing to do with AGW shouldn't count because I'm a skeptic.

    That to me is troubling and yet another example of how some wish to shut off certain opinions and certain people from being included in ant debate.

    Parent

    Science does not get overruled by (none / 0) (#121)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 08:30:31 AM EST
    a minority either. Skepticism is a healthy part of science but when it turns into denialism you have to wonder about the motivations of people who want to fly in the face of the consensus about a sound theory based on scientific fact backed by verifiable observational data.

    There are "scientists" who believe in the young earth theory. Should I applaud them for their skepticism or deride them for their foolishness?

    Sorry, but for science to advance, the fools and the charlatans must be weeded out. I am not calling you a fool or charlatan Slado, but your skecticism seems to be moving in that direction.


    Parent

    I'll ask again (none / 0) (#125)
    by jondee on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 03:40:45 PM EST
    is AGW the only overwhelming scientific consensus you take issue with, or are there others?

    If it's the only one, what a coincidence that it's the only one that the usual suspects, Heritage, Fox, the Norquist Gang etc etc take issue with..

    A rather striking coincidence.

    Parent

    As opposed to gravity? (none / 0) (#126)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 05:03:46 PM EST
    Or evolution or basic science? Yes.

    And of course my opinion is  influenced by my political leanings.  Those leanings being I question authority when it is so certain about something that it tries to shut off the debate.

    In fact I was a believer early on but after seeing doomsday scenarios fall by the wayside, reading literature that was contrary to the general consensus and then doing some basic scientific research I became a skeptic.    

    Is your opinion on this purely scientific?  No political influence at all?  

    I again support energy efficiency and all forms of energy as long as they make economic sense.

    Parent

    No political influence at all? (none / 0) (#128)
    by FlJoe on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 07:19:14 PM EST
    None what so ever. That's the beauty of science, it has no agenda.

    Parent
    I used to be a supporter of charter schools. (none / 0) (#109)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jan 22, 2015 at 02:04:39 PM EST
    But I'm also a member of the reality-based community who acknowledges the significant evidence that's been compiled over the last two decades, which underscores the growing perception that the concept of charter schools is in fact a deeply flawed one.

    Because while charter schools have proved to be a relatively lucrative business for many of the private management companies which operate them, such schools generally shortchange their own students academically or worse still, deliberately overstate student achievement, and they further siphon much-needed and scarce public funding away from already cash-strapped public schools within the district. So, I'm no longer a believer in that model.

    We have a system of public charter schools out here in the islands, but they are still subject to State DOE rules and regulations, and they're more comparable to magnet schools operating under an SCBM model, than to actual charter schools.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I know that not all charter schools (none / 0) (#117)
    by Slado on Fri Jan 23, 2015 at 12:03:23 AM EST
    work but I'm not familiar with truly private charter schools because the excellent HS in my town (Signature School) is state and privately funded and does not operate to make a profit.

    I think the issue is education has taken an us vs them attitude towards charter schools that keeps them from bring better integrated into an overall education system.

    Even hear we have a top ten rated HS there is almost no cooperation other then what is required between it and the school district.

    That was not the original intent.  The intent was to challenge the other schools to adapt certain practices and improve.  

    Instead we have this small HS excelling in a vacuum.


    Parent

    Wait, what? You're not making any sense. (none / 0) (#40)
    by Anne on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 08:12:42 AM EST
    Community college may not be someone's end goal, but if one completes a CC degree program, one has definitely graduated from it, so it simply makes no sense to say that if one goes on to a 4-year school that he or she didn't actually graduate from the CC program.  If you go on to any kind of college, does it mean you didn't graduate from high school?  Because that seems to be the logic you are applying in this instance.

    And CC isn't much of a stepping stone to a 4-yr school if one doesn't complete the program and obtain a degree; failure to complete the program doesn't look too good on a transcript/application.  And then there is the problem of transferring credits.  I suppose it's possible to get into a 4 yr school with CC attendance and no degree, or even a certificate, but the chances of entering in a true third year - as a 4-yr college junior - are probably very slim.


    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 08:19:25 AM EST
    no. You can attend a community college for two years and then go on to a four year college without graduating from the community college. Since certain courses are required at some community colleges to get a diploma from them people who are going on many times don't take them because they won't transfer to another school and therefore don't meet the requirements for a community college diploma.

    Parent
    Many people are taking some of the required (none / 0) (#72)
    by nycstray on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 01:40:06 PM EST
    courses for their 4yr degree at CCs because it's MUCH cheaper. I recently took some classes at my CC. They were classes that would count towards a 4yr degree. And if I had realized that, I would not have taken as many, especially not in the summer when the class time is reduced but the learning requirement isn't!

    Maybe things are different in your state?

    Parent

    Count towards a 4 yr degree where? (none / 0) (#75)
    by Anne on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 02:04:33 PM EST
    At an in-state institution, or anywhere in the US?  Because while, on an in-state basis, that may work, I don't think there's any guarantee that a 4 yr school somewhere else is necessarily going to accept those credits.

    In Maryland, completion of a 2 yr associates' degree program guarantees you admission to any 4 yr school in the state system, so clearly, MD has made sure that those CC credits will transfer.  I would assume, therefore, that on a non-degree basis, credits from individual courses would also transfer.

    Parent

    usually (none / 0) (#76)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 02:15:50 PM EST
    people know where they want to go after a community college so they only take stuff that will transfer to where they want to go next. Hence why a lot of them don't take all the courses required for an associates degree in a community college. I know here in GA it is set up all under the University of Georgia system so everything will transfer to anything in the system. If you are going to another state, you just check what will transfer and take those courses.

    Parent
    "If you are going to another state?" (none / 0) (#80)
    by Anne on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 02:41:30 PM EST
    I can see that working on a summer school-type basis, but that's about it.

    If you aren't already enrolled in a 4 yr college, taking courses based on where you want to go is taking some pretty big chances that you're going to be accepted.  And if you're not?  Then what?

    You make it sound so simple, and I don't think it is quite as easy as "just" doing this or that.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#83)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 02:56:00 PM EST
    there's no guarantee that you're going to be accepted into University of Georgia or a state school that you might want to go to. You still have to have the grades to get in the tougher schools but it's easier to get in these schools as a sophomore or above than it is out of high school.

    And frankly most 4 year colleges you just take basic stuff the first two years. So taking those same courses at a community college would be the same. Almost every college in the country requires the same basic stuff the first two years, English, math etc.

    Parent

    I know (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 02:59:22 PM EST
    a lot of people who have done it this way because of various reasons, saves money, couldn't get directly into the four year college etc. I think you're over thinking this whole thing.

    Parent
    Anne, the answer is to request a meeting (none / 0) (#86)
    by NYShooter on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 03:18:45 PM EST
    with the Dean of Admission's office and, have a sit-down. I helped a girlfriend do just that years ago, and, found that they were very helpful, and, were also very willing to tailor a program that worked for everyone. Wishing and hoping, and, "taking a chance" is definitely not the way to go about it.

    Just Talk to the institution(s) you want to transfer to and be amazed at how helpful they really can be.

    Worked for us, and my girl got into a large nationally ranked University. Worked great for her.

    (Wished our courtship worked out that great, but, hey, them's the breaks. LOL.)

    Parent

    Or you could (none / 0) (#87)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 03:24:27 PM EST
    get their course catalog and find out the requirements for what you want to do and then take those courses at a community college. English 101 and English 102 and the like are pretty universal.

    Parent
    I'm going to assume it was to state (none / 0) (#78)
    by nycstray on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 02:28:43 PM EST
    schools. I was just expanding my skill set, so not a lot of research involved. Obviously if I had researched I would have known I signed up for one heck of a workload, lol!~

    But seriously, with the cost of college, to pay under 20 bucks a unit for some required basic courses is a no brainer. I paid either 11 or 18 (can't remember) a unit for some multi media courses. Those classes would have cost $810 a unit at the college I graduated from . . .

    Parent

    Our community colleges are administered as an integral part of the University of Hawaii system. The 100- and 200-level course levels offered at the community colleges have the same corresponding number as those found at UH's four-year campuses at Manoa, Hilo and as of last year, Kapolei in West Oahu. As such, those credits are fully transferable to other campuses within the UH system.

    The advantage of going to a community college is that class sizes for those courses are often no more than 25 students, which allows for significant interaction between instructor and pupil, while at UH's flagship campus at Manoa, those courses are offered in lecture sections with as many as 300 (or more) students enrolled, and you require an appointment to see your professor. From that standpoint, a student's transition from high school to community college can be a little less overwhelming, dramatic and daunting.

    The downside for those young students seeking a stereotypical college experience is that community colleges out here are by and large commuter schools with no on-campus housing available. Basically, you attend class and then you leave.

    (At Honolulu Community College, the downtown "college campus" is basically two high-rise buildings. HCC's vocational education campus is located in the industrial area immediately adjacent to Honolulu Int'l Airport.)

    But the huge advantage for students who choose to go the community college route to get to a four-year campus is that the per-semester tuition is less than 25% of that at UH-Manoa and UH-Hilo. And if you're putting yourself through school, that can result in a huge savings of many thousands of dollars.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    It depends (none / 0) (#82)
    by Zorba on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 02:51:36 PM EST
    If you are planning upon going on to a state four year college, the state colleges, at least here in Maryland, pretty much accept the credits you earned at a community college.  Son Zorba took a bunch of courses at the community college (not getting his two-year degree there) before going on to a state school here (UMBC), and they accepted all his community college credits.  Saving him, and us, a bundle.
    But it is true that, if you don't have the actual Associate Degree, you may have a problem getting all of your credits accepted at a private or out of state school, and may well have to take some courses over again.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 03:06:22 PM EST
    but that is true of any transfer situation. That's also why some of my classmates didn't get the associate's degree from the community college because they knew the four year would not accept some of their courses that they had to take. this particular community college was run by the Baptists and you had to take religion courses to graduate or get an associate's degree. The place they were going to they knew wouldn't accept the religion courses so they skipped taking them and didn't get the degree and just went onto the four year college.

    Parent
    I can't afford the college (none / 0) (#89)
    by nycstray on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 03:39:20 PM EST
    I graduated from. I sure as heck wouldn't want to have to put any kids through college these days. The cost is frightening!

    Parent
    The private, highly rated (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Zorba on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 04:01:04 PM EST
    university I graduated from when I entered, in 1966, had a tuition rate of $1,500 per year (not counting student fees for room and board).  Fortunately, I had a full academic scholarship for this, although I worked summers and part time during the school year to pay for other expenses.
    The current tuition at the same university is over $45,000, not counting fees and room and board.
    The inflation index calculator I looked at said that $1,500 in 1966 money should be worth a little under $11,000 today.
    So, what has happened?
    How in the ever-loving he!! can middle and working class kids afford this any more?

    Parent
    Iirc I paid $60 a unit (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by nycstray on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 04:25:32 PM EST
    Private university also. Was able to work my way through college (union job!) with just a bit of help from loans a couple yrs. As I stated above, it is now $810 a unit! (2013-14 academic rates) And then there's the housing. The school is in SF, so you can imagine what that costs!! Oh and the textbooks I needed for the classes I took at the CC were EXPENSIVE! I had forgotten that one, as textbooks were not used much where I went to school (art school). I think it was over 300 bucks for a couple of books and a handbook. Thankfully I was able to rent one of the books.

    Parent
    they can't (none / 0) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 04:09:52 PM EST
    A classmate of mine who is a professor at Penn State said that college is becoming pretty much unaffordable for so many people. He said even though they are technically a public university in reality they are more like a private university. the tax payers of PA, he said, are no longer supporting schools like Penn State and therefore the people going are having to bear the brunt of the cost.

    Parent
    It's really sad (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Zorba on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 05:25:38 PM EST
    when even the state colleges become unaffordable.
    And how is the economy going to grow if the young people today owe so much money when they graduate, that they can't afford to buy a house, or even afford an apartment, and many of them have to move back in with their parents?
    It's nice that everyone talks about how important it is to get a higher education, and how important it is for our future to train kids in the STEM subjects and all.
    But how are the kids going to pay for this?
    Not to mention the fact that there are many jobs nowadays which ask for a college degree, and which could be done by people with a high school diploma, but if you don't have that college degree, they won't even look at you.  Even though those jobs do not offer a salary that could help you pay off your college loans.
    Learn German and move to Germany, people.  They have free or very low cost college for their students.  My brother and his German wife are already thinking about moving to Germany when their kids are high school age, so that their kids can go to college there.  (And yes, fortunately, their kids are totally bi-lingual.)

    Parent
    It truly is (none / 0) (#98)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jan 21, 2015 at 06:37:51 PM EST
    Zorba it really is. Honestly the only way to really go these days is to live at home, go to community college for two years and then find a four year college that you can commute to.

    Parent
    I'll tell you what happened (none / 0) (#104)
    by Slado on Thu Jan 22, 2015 at 06:32:45 AM EST
    Federal Student loans , Low interest rates, and a decrease in admission standards have distorted the market and created a higher education bubble.

    It is the housing bubble all over again except this time there are no houses to foreclose on.  Just students with mountains of debt.

    Mark Cuban gives an interesting take on how bad the bubble will be when it pops.

    Bipartisan good intentions have created an environment where students who shouldn't be going to college or not only going to college but are going and incurring massive debt they can never hope to pay off.    

    When I went t