Friday Open Thread

Busy day. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    kdog, so that you do not have false info, (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 02:19:38 PM EST
    [new] Gotcha... (none / 0) (#197)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 10:49:28 AM PST
    if Wilson knew about the alleged 911 call from a concerned shopper.  His boss says he didn't, but I guess that don't mean much....Ferguson PD doesn't appear to know their a$$holes from their elbows.


    The Chief did not say that Wilson did not know about the cigar incident, he said Wilson stopped the kids because they were in the street, and that he did not stop them because he thought they were suspects in the cigar incident.

    THEN, it has been reported, sometime DURING the initial contact with Brown & Johnson, Wilson saw the cigars and realized what was what, because he WAS aware of the cigar incident.

    Thanks... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 02:34:37 PM EST
    so their story in a nutshell is the hard stop and Starsky & Hutch routine went in motion when Wilson saw the cigars.  Not because the teens responded to the officer's lip with some lip of their own.

    We'll probably never know...but I keep coming back to even if you give the officer the benefit of every doubt, it's very hard to justify this shooting (morally if not legally)...and I have serious doubts about anything and everything coming from the police side.  In fairness, my prejudices run that way anyway as most here know...but this seems particularly shady, regardless of my prejudice.


    I touched on this in the last - now closed - (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Anne on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 02:49:03 PM EST
    Open thread:

    Seems to me that if, after ordering Brown and Johnson to the sidewalk, Wilson hears about the theft of the cigarillos, and sees a package of tobacco products in Brown's hand, what he does next simply defies logic and reason.  If anything, there would be more unknowns that had the potential to be extremely dangerous, calling for more caution and calm.

    And Wilson did exactly the opposite with, ultimately, fatal results.

    I don't know what we have come to that we live - or at least the people of Ferguson live - in a world where the possibility that someone stole tobacco products calls for the kind of reaction that ends up with someone dead on the street.

    And, I might add, where there is such callous disregard by the police in Ferguson for the feelings of the dead man's family and friends that they would leave his body in the street for four hours.

    I can't reconcile the police chief's rationale of "it took a long time to process the scene" - an attempt to portray themselves as careful and thorough - with the cop's failure to even call in the incident (the dispatcher said they were getting news reports) or for an incident report to be filed.


    Regardless of... (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 02:56:32 PM EST
    the events related to the senseless killing of Michael Brown, there is evidence of a litany of problems with how we police in this country, Ferguson and beyond.

    Broken Windows is broken, community relations and cooperation is non-existent, disrespect and fear and hate all around.  And to be fair, the police are not totally to blame...lawmakers created alotta this with their war on drugs, their war on terror, and their over-criminalization of the American people via legislative clusterf8ckery. Not to mention the army surplus giveaways.  Congress and State Legislatures have turned the police and the citizenry into enemies...it doesn't have to be this way.  It shouldn't be this way.


    Generally agree, however, (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 02:58:38 PM EST
    when this first happened and people commented on the length of time Brown's body lay in the street (the actual time does not seem to be confirmed, but estimates I saw were 3 - 4 hours) I tried to find out how long bodies were generally left after they died by police shooting and found no specific info.

    However, I did find this shooting in NYC where you can see by the photos that the body was left for however much time it took for the investigators to show up, put their markers over evidence, take their photos and notes etc., etc., which has to be at least a couple hours I'd say.


    But none of that activity took place (none / 0) (#10)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:09:50 PM EST
    around the body in this case.  That is part of the problem here, the lack of any sort of investigation immediately after the shooting.

    what is your source for "no investigation after the shooting?"

    Standard police protocol (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by NYShooter on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:54:19 PM EST
    is for the body and his immediate surroundings to be left untouched until the CSI team does it's work. The body is first, and, after pictures are taken, and, the body's forensic evidence is "bagged & tagged," the body, at least the head and upper torso, is covered with a light sheet.

    I know there has been a lot of speculation about the disrespect shown to Mr. Brown, and, his family, and, from what I've seen, it's certainly  inexcusable. But, whether it was done to "send a message," like, "this is what happens when you mess with us," I would say that it's probably just more of the gross incompetence we see metastasizing each day . But, denying that racism doesn't permeate everything we've seen so far would be denying reality.  


    The operative word here is Immediately (none / 0) (#23)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:43:05 PM EST
    And there wasn't even an incident report written about it until the 19th of this month.

    but I just found this:
    In fact, incident reports released by Ferguson police indicate a swift response.

    A time line produced by St. Louis Public Radio based on police reports breaks down police action Aug. 9, including the convenience store robbery and the shooting.

    12:00:07 p.m., Wilson left a scene where he was assisting with a "sick call."

    12:01:50 p.m., a shooting event is opened by the Ferguson police department.

    12:02:22 p.m., Ferguson dispatch alerts another officer, who is en route and arrives on scene.

    12:04:55 p.m. EMS is contacted.

    If that really is the best timeline they can put t (5.00 / 0) (#83)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 06:18:55 AM EST
    together it says a lot. Does not even give a time for the EMS showing up, not to mention nothing regarding an investigative team.

    Not criticizing you - that really was all there was in the article.


    Nothing in there about (none / 0) (#47)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 06:10:43 PM EST
    Investigators being called to the scene,  and they didn't even get around to producing an incident report until Tuesday because why?

    There is a difference between responding to something and starting an investigation, I hope I've made this distinction clear to you by now.


    12:01:50 -- (none / 0) (#149)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:13:10 PM EST
    12:01:50 p.m., a shooting event is opened by the Ferguson police department.

    At 12:01 is his encounter with Brown and witnesses say it all went down within 60 seconds.

    The event would likely still be going on at 12:01:50.

    So who called it in??? and call me Skeptical.


    Well, I've been looking for pics of (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:43:37 PM EST
    an investigation, but have not been able to find any. Of course, the incident wasn't "THE" incident at the time, so there were no reporters or anything hot on the trail. Still, it is curious.

    fwiw, not much: (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:55:08 PM EST
    Jackson said he was "uncomfortable" with the length of time Brown's body lay in the open. But he added that the job of processing the crime scene was delayed by the sound of gunshots ringing out, although it was never determined where those shots came from.

    Police In Ferguson (none / 0) (#19)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:38:10 PM EST
    The context of the racism explains something.

    25% of the Ferguson budget is from traffic stops.

    86 percent of stops, 92 percent of searches and 93 percent of arrests were of black people despite the fact that police officers were far less likely to find contraband on black drivers (22 percent versus 34 percent of whites). This worsens inequality, as struggling blacks do more to fund local government than relatively affluent whites.


    The dynamic between police and blacks very bad. The police harass them on a daily basis and are bleeding them dry.


    Excellent point... (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:46:06 PM EST
    that's another serious burden to police-community relations...using the criminal code as revenue generator.   Makes people hate cops even more when they feel shaken down for cash over nonsense...add a racial discrimination element like Ferguson, forget about it...it's criminal.

    Much better to be honest and raise taxes than the backhanded tickets as taxes game so many localities play.  It has consequences, and police-community relations is a biggie.


    C'mon, kdog (none / 0) (#32)
    by NYShooter on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 04:05:09 PM EST
    Raise taxes? What are you, some kind of pinko Commie? Raising taxes is downright Un-American. Gouging that segment of our population that's least able to pay so that The Job Creators pay next-to-nothing is our patriotic duty.

    Don't you know anything??


    taking time (none / 0) (#26)
    by markw on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:45:21 PM EST
    When Trayvon Martin was killed, many people (including me) criticized the police for possibly doing a slopping job of collecting all evidence at the scene. I don't know whether the Ferguson PD did a more thorough job of collecting evidence at the scene, but I would certainly hope they did. It seems to me that more important than rushing things is to be very thorough in terms of collecting and documenting all evidence.

    To markw (none / 0) (#61)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 08:09:33 PM EST
    If they needed to leave the body there to process it properly, then they should take as long as necessary.

    But to process it properly wouldn't they also need the officer's SUV???

    Looking at the crime scene just minutes after the shooting the officer's SUV is gone -- gone -- gone -- gone.

    If the entire incident started there at the SUV and the first shot was fired there at the SUV then why was that SUV moved and who moved it and where did it go.


    I'm cynical enough to believe that if the body (none / 0) (#57)
    by crimebird on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:39:25 PM EST
    ...had been quickly removed from the scene, some people would be claiming that was part of the cover up. This said, I'd be interested to know what the average time a body is removed from a crime scene. I have a feeling that it would probably be at least a couple of hours.

    Chalkman (none / 0) (#132)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:29:42 AM EST
    If the body was lying there for 3 to 4 hours, then what were the police doing all this time???

    What could take precedence over processing the body that could take so long?

    People on the scene report that the police went around taking everybody's cellphone. Is that what took so long???

    Was that to make sure that the residents couldn't record the crime scene processing and where the cones were placed by the 8+ shell casings on the ground???

    And most importantly:

    Where was Chalkman??? He never did make an appearance.


    There is one piece of information (none / 0) (#40)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:22:17 PM EST
    that would tell us a lot.

    Where did the shell casings end up?

    By all accounts there were at least eight shots fired, one in the car, one at the fleeing suspect, and six that hit him from the front.  Obviously he was using an automatic weapon, not a revolver, so the casings were ejected.

    In ANY investigation of a shooting, the locations of ejected shell casings are marked and recorded, because (Duh!) they will tell you a lot about where the shooter fired from.


    cigarillos (none / 0) (#196)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:31:24 PM EST
    THEN, it has been reported, sometime DURING the initial contact with Brown & Johnson, Wilson saw the cigars and realized what was what, because he WAS aware of the cigar incident.

    The Chief said that and then when asked where he came up with that he admitted that it was his speculation and nothing more, aka he just made it up out of thin air.

    From the time that contact was first made with the two in the street to the time he was standing over a dead body was about 60 seconds.

    There was no time to see cigarillos and make any connection -- cigarillos incidentally that were probably already in his pocket and out of sight.


    Did they say if they found the alleged (none / 0) (#199)
    by nycstray on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:48:49 PM EST
    stolen item(s)? And if so, where (hand, pocket,?)?

    DANG ITS HOT!!! (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 02:59:43 PM EST
    I just went to the store.  I ain't goin outside again until it cools off.

    Am I the only one in the Midwest considering taking the ice bucket challenge.

    Without being challenged.

    Apparently, not all of the country is (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Anne on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:09:59 PM EST
    having an actual summer...here in Maryland, our temps have been hovering in the low- to mid-80s, with some evenings earlier this month going down into the 50's.

    It's been weird.  Nice, really, because we've had many more days where we've actually wanted to be outside, but weird because it just doesn't seem like summer.

    Has me wondering if winter's going to be milder than we're used to - or if Mother Nature will double-down and make us pay for such a nice summer with lots of snow and bitter cold.

    Guess we'll see soon enough!

    Stay cool: light a candle to Willis Carrier in gratitude for air conditioning!


    That way here till a few days ago. (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:17:15 PM EST
    Same here (none / 0) (#20)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:38:37 PM EST
    It's hardly been like summer much except for this week. usually my french doors are steamed in the mornings starting in July. This week is the first time they've steamed all summer long. But i'm grateful. The last few summers have been so miserably hot just going outside would take your breath away.

    Willis Carrier... (none / 0) (#14)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:21:44 PM EST
    Mother Nature is not amused or grateful!  

    I never use the stuff at home.  I'd love to claim out of my eco-consciousness, but really I just don't like it and abuse the energy grid in other ways, like sleeping with the tv or stereo on.


    We've used a lot less of it this summer, (none / 0) (#16)
    by Anne on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:28:11 PM EST
    which is great - not to mention that, after being cooped up breathing canned air all day, M-F, I start to get a little claustrophobic.  Some days it's so cold in my office that I look forward to the heat, and won't even put the air on in my car.

    It's harder when the air is like dog breath, for sure - but it's been pretty comfortable for most of the summer. My daughter's due to have a baby at the end of October, and I know she's hoping for cool weather - not cold, mind you, just cool.  Actually, the day I delivered her October 9th - it was in the mid-80s, so I guess you get what you get, and no use getting upset!

    Now, if we can get lucky and not have to put the heat on early, that would be wonderful, too.


    Amen Sister... (none / 0) (#17)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:32:08 PM EST
    here's to low heating bills, but I'm thinking a cold one this year.

    As an avid indoor smoker, I cherish the spring/summer/fall open windows.  It looks like a dream sequence at my crib in the winter.


    My AC (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:32:32 PM EST
    Had not been turned on till a few day eps ago.  In fact I remember posting a comment on July 30 complaining that when the sun went down I had to close windows because it was chilly.

    And I am not a "chilly" person


    Me either... (none / 0) (#21)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:38:48 PM EST
    I'm like a temperature chameleon, I adapt.  There always fighting over the thermostat here in cubicle village...this one's hot, this one's cold, "who changed the thermostat?", wah wah wah...and then somebody will ask me to chime in and I'm like "I'm comfortable".  

    Oh not me (none / 0) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:44:26 PM EST
    I run hot.  All my working life, being a computer person, was spent in dark over air conditioned rooms.  Everyone else would be in a sweater I would have my - absolutely required -  little fan whirring away.

    I think I might die in weather like this without AC.  I literally can't sleep.


    On winter (none / 0) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:27:30 PM EST
    Actually I was reading the other day that the jet stream pattern that was bringing all this lovely cool weather, which as I said we had until recently, was going to continue this winter.   Right now it's great to have all that lovely polar air brought down.  This winter not so much.  Likely to be horrible.

    Our 97 year old family weather forecaster agrees.   And honestly based on experience I trust her forecasts more than the national weather service.


    It feels like the surface of Mercury (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by SuzieTampa on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 09:32:13 PM EST
    here in Florida.

    So true. Honestly nearly passed out (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 06:04:00 AM EST
    walking the couple hundred yards from my car to the work building  one morning this week. I have not been feeling well to begin with, and I pretty much wanted to turn around and go home after that. But I would have had to go back outside,

    Heat advisory here (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:40:08 AM EST
    I took the dogs out at 9:00 last night for a possible walk.  We settled for lapping the yard.  It was suffocating, sweltering, supposed to remain this way all weekend.

    Here too (none / 0) (#126)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:02:08 AM EST
    Unless the house catches fire I do not plan to leave it today.

    Send it this way... (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:04:12 PM EST
    it hasn't been hot enough for me all summer in the NY...very mild, no heat waves, even need a sweatshirt in the evening some nights.

    And their predicting a nippy September...I feel gipped!


    In Portland allergy sufferers (none / 0) (#28)
    by ZtoA on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:47:43 PM EST
    are suffering. I usually have mild hay-fever or whatever it is, but this year it is off the charts for me. Reactions in my eyes are the worst. Now my windows are closed (I love open windows and doors) and the room filters are on. sniff sniff, sneeze.

    As a kid... (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:53:17 PM EST
    I had allergies so bad my eyes would swell shut and the sneezing and weezing up the wazoo...but they went away in my teens.  I don't know if it was the allergy shots I used to get that did it or taking up smoking, but I have no issues now. Weird.

    Really bad in FL too. The air is like a warm dirty (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 06:06:29 AM EST
    sponge. Everyone has some type of respiratory misery, myself included. The office sounds like it is January in Chicago with all the coughing.

    Delilah too (none / 0) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:43:11 AM EST
    Josh and I avoided the resp illnesses going around so far but not so with the dog at doggy daycare.

    75, sunny, light breeze off the bay ;) (none / 0) (#145)
    by nycstray on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:10:30 PM EST
    72 Cloudy In NYC (none / 0) (#158)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:26:31 PM EST
    Nice breeze off the Hudson...

    The latest word from the climatologists is that there used to be 30 year cycles of heat and cooling.. it has to do with the Atlantic ocean and how it absorbs and releases heat..  

    super fascinating...  the big problem, is that with the atmosphere being f'ed up as it is, this cooling period which seems to have started at the new millennium may be only 10-20 years and then brutal heat..  things are changing much more rapidly which does not bode well for the future.

    very unstable times..


    Wish I were there--Manhattan, that is. (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:40:51 PM EST
    Me too (5.00 / 1) (#201)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:59:01 PM EST
    Beam me up Scotty

    Partly Sunny.. (none / 0) (#165)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:42:54 PM EST
    sun coming in and out of the clouds..

    No rain in So. Cal (none / 0) (#167)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:50:29 PM EST
    to speak of for two years.  What about in San Francisco?

    Not much up here either (none / 0) (#180)
    by nycstray on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:19:14 PM EST
    I'm trying to make a point of enjoying the drought weather as much as possible (since we have pretty mild temps!). And I will try not to b!tch in the middle of the next El Nino also :P

    The past couple of years, I was still harvesting tomatoes and other summer crops past Thanksgiving, before enough rain/cold came to ruin the tomatoes. Be interesting to see when I stop this year . . .


    Ferguson FaceBook Fallout (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:43:43 PM EST
    I have had some experience with this myself -

    Facebook Friendships Challenged By Ferguson-Related Racism

    Angela Mitchell-Phillips' predominantly white church had a "come to Jesus" moment on race last weekend.

    Her minister leaned over the pulpit and said something like: As God is my witness, I better not ever hear of anybody in this parish calling another human being an animal.

    The congregation turned pin-drop silent. Mitchell-Phillips looked around the pews.

    "I bet somebody did it," she thought. "I bet he saw it on Facebook. And I bet he was pi$$ed."

    The moment points to how raw and tense the issue of race has become in St. Louis, and around the country, since Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson fatally shot 18-year-old, unarmed Michael Brown and the volatile days of protests since.

    The aftermath of Ferguson has generated a rash of friend fallouts. Mitchell-Phillips posted a rant on Monday.

    "If you need to start a comment with `I'm not racist, but ...' that's probably a comment you don't need to say (or write) out loud," she wrote.

    Suprisingly (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 06:36:47 PM EST
    I have seen very little feguson postings among my friends and the few that are saying things are mostly feeling for the Brown family. I finally did unfriend a tea partier today though. I just had enough of his nonsense. He can't even debate points only screech about how I think Obama is wonderful. Well, darn anybody around here would certainly be shocked at that particular statement. My problem or so called problem is that I don't buy into every crackpot tea party conspiracy theory that comes down the pike. So if you don't buy into their latest theory you are "with Obama". They sound just like George W. Bush. Everything has to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator with these people and I was just done.

    I have many friends (none / 0) (#53)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 06:51:57 PM EST
    In the STL area.  Well, a couple less now.  That's about all they have been talking about.

    I hear you (none / 0) (#69)
    by NYShooter on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 11:18:54 PM EST
    while racism, police brutality, and systemic class unfairness aren't new phenomena , Ferguson seems to have hit the brass bell on all of them.

    What I would like to know more about is how a  white minority can continue to hold all the seats of power well into the 21st century? I mean, this isn't Jim Crow, Mississippi, 1935. What factors create this atmosphere where just a few black/minority votes could start turning this around, and, it isn't happening?


    In Ferguson, Black Town, White Power (none / 0) (#70)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 11:22:13 PM EST
    Thanks Squeaks (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by NYShooter on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:46:02 AM EST
    I think we just found a good job for soon to be ex-President Obama....Community organizer.

    He will charge (none / 0) (#85)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 06:28:41 AM EST
    Way more than they can afford.

    Don't Worry (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:52:39 AM EST
    The Clinton Admin will pay for it with a Tax paid by those who belong to groups on the SPLC watch list.  

    This has been discussed, a lot. (none / 0) (#71)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 11:23:15 PM EST
    Is your question rhetorical?

    Meh. (none / 0) (#73)
    by NYShooter on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:46:18 AM EST
    The answer is simple (none / 0) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:29:53 AM EST
    Only 12% of the 68% black majority voted.

    My usual suspect just felt the need (none / 0) (#81)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 06:09:05 AM EST
    for one derogatory post the day that video of the convenience store  was released, and has mercifully gone silent since. ,ay be she goes to church with a good minister like the above.

    Tori, Grant and Kari fired from Mythbusters..... (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by magster on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 06:16:28 PM EST
    !! Scandal !!

    More good stuff from HBO (none / 0) (#65)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 09:59:08 PM EST
    group claims to have located ISIS Camp (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 08:14:33 PM EST
    Finding an ISIS Training Camp

    After doing just a little bit of research we find this general area in Google Earth along Tigris River in Mosul that looks like it could be a fit based on the land marks available in the images.

    If a couple of guys using (none / 0) (#64)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 09:53:26 PM EST
    Google earth can find the "secret" training camp these bozos might be over rated.  Or over confident.  Or dumb.

    Good, then we can drone 'em (none / 0) (#140)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:00:01 PM EST
    And now for some good news! (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by womanwarrior on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 10:54:12 PM EST
    Peter finally got his innocent client released after working on the case for 12 years.  The client served 24 years. Not sure how to post the link, but will see if this works:  html: <Han Tak Lee> <http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-monroe-arson-murder-convict-released-20140822,0,2612239.story>

    Here, let's try this: (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Anne on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 11:04:07 PM EST
    Innocent client released after 24 years

    From the article:

    Kathleen Chung set out to find an attorney, working down a list of the top 100 lawyers in Philadelphia Magazine. She found that most of them wanted tens of thousands of dollars to review the case. Then she spoke to Peter Goldberger, who offered to look at Lee's files for only $700.

    Goldberger has served as Lee's pro bono and court-appointed attorney since 1999. The Chungs became leaders of the National Committee to Free Han Tak Lee.

    In a June opinion, Carlson wrote that Lee's conviction was based on junk science and should not stand.

    "The verdict in the matter rests almost entirely upon scientific pillars which have now eroded," Carlson wrote.

    Two weeks ago, U.S. District Judge William J. Nealon adopted Carlson's recommendations, ordering Lee's release and giving Monroe County prosecutors until Dec. 6 to retry him. Assistant District Attorney Matthew Bernal said Friday that his office plans to review Nealon's decision for a possible appeal.

    Monroe County District Attorney David Christine, who prosecuted Lee in 1990 in his first term as district attorney, did not return a call to his office Friday.

    Goldberger said he will act quickly to have an appeal dismissed if one is filed.

    "We are not going to go through another full appeal process if I have anything to do with it," Goldberger said.

    Beneath his elation at Lee's release, Goldberger expressed frustration that the facts and testimony that ultimately convinced Carlson and Nealon to set Lee free are essentially the same as those presented to a Monroe County judge in 1993 and again in 1999.

    "The state courts 15 years ago brushed us off and told us we were challenging the truth," Goldberger said.

    Is this our Peter? (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by caseyOR on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:23:07 AM EST
    Congratulations. Excellent work, Peter.

    Yes, that is "our Peter" (5.00 / 5) (#75)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:23:06 AM EST
    aka PeterG. My congrats as well.

    All I can say about that, (5.00 / 8) (#93)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 09:19:26 AM EST
    other than thanks to all for the good thoughts, is that WomanWarrior is generally a very well-informed source, including on subjects relating to me.  Except that in this instance it was 15 years, not just 12, that we worked on overturning this travesty of a wrongful conviction. (I had probably told her that it was 12, but subtraction is not my best subject, nor is my memory for dates at all reliable. Checking our files shows it has been 15 years, almost exactly.)

    Great work (5.00 / 4) (#94)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 09:24:05 AM EST
    You must be proud of what you achieved. I know we are proud of you.

    Well done, Peter (none / 0) (#125)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:59:41 AM EST
    Very, very well done.

    You are a jolly good fellow.


    "Congratulations" doesn't seem like (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 09:49:31 AM EST
    a good enough word to describe your finally being able to overcome what has to have been an odyssey of injustice, frustration, moments of darkness, feelings of despair about the state of the system, sleepless nights, and probably much more.

    "Triumphilations!"  maybe.  

    You made the system work for this man, and ultimately for all of us; you put the scales of justice back into balance for this man.

    There's an element of sadness that it should have been that hard, and taken that many years to right the wrongs inflicted on this poor man, but thank God for people like you who don't give up.

    If I can be sappy for a moment, this news means the light of justice burns a little brighter against the forces that would prefer to extinguish it.

    Thank you.


    24 years. A horror beyond understanding. (5.00 / 1) (#177)
    by Mr Natural on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:09:21 PM EST
    Wonderful! There can't be many better moments (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 05:59:04 AM EST
    in a professional life. Congratulations, and thank you!

    Yay Peter! (5.00 / 3) (#88)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 08:17:20 AM EST
    Good work... Nice to hear about your victories.

    Your comments just make me sad. (5.00 / 10) (#90)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 08:46:36 AM EST
    And more than a little disgusted.  Reading them - and some of the others here - I realize that all that matters to you is that a white person is on the hot seat for killing a black kid, and so the mission becomes smear the victim and anyone close to him.  Speculate about a possible criminal record, about drug use, about what it means that his parents aren't "together," imply something negative about his school records, about gang signs.  Whatever it takes to make people feel like Michael Brown doesn't matter, or allow them to feel okay about his death.  Whatever it takes to get the shooter off the hook, right?  Whatever it takes to make people breathe a sigh of relief that another drug-crazed, criminal-in-training won't be making trouble for anyone ever again, right?


    Where's the speculation about Wilson?  About the Ferguson PD?  Why aren't you asking if Wilson had any record of drug or steroid use?  If there were any citizen complaints about his treatment of people in the community?  Of his record of harassment of black people?  Why aren't you making anything out of his broken marriage?  

    Why do you need Michael Brown to be "guilty" in the kangaroo court that is your mind?  Why would you begin from the side that needs to justify the shooting - because the guy doing the shooting was a cop, and we all know that cops don't kill people, they just complete the circle of their victims' history?  A history where parents that aren't together is considered important.  Where having pot in your system is strike two.  Where the lawyers your family hires means you must be guilty of something, or it's all about money.

    Like I said, disgusting.

    Vacation Time (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 08:53:53 AM EST
    Bush v Obama....  and the winner is:

    On Aug. 8, 2014, Knoller tweeted that Obama had taken 19 vacations totaling 125 days so far while in office. Those numbers have risen a bit due to the Martha's Vineyard vacation, but that's still many fewer than George W. Bush's 65 combined trips to his Texas ranch and his parents' home in Kennebunkport, Maine, which totaled 407 days at the same point in his presidency.

    As for which president has played the most rounds of golf, it's definitely not Obama. For instance, Dwight Eisenhower played almost 800 rounds during his eight-year presidency, according to a study of his daily itinerary cited in Golf Digest -- many times what Obama has played.


    Well Obama looks more uppity (5.00 / 3) (#101)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:22:06 AM EST
    playing golf. Who does that boy think he is?

    Just think of him as a caddy (none / 0) (#142)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:02:29 PM EST
    And they're off .. (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 09:12:49 AM EST
    More stories sourced by the CTH - as though they should be taken seriously.


    Michael Brown used to live in St Ann, casenet shows arrest on 11/2/13 for armed robbery among other things. I've seen claims that totally dismissed the arrest on the erroneous idea that Brown lived in Ferguson, but nothing solid either way.

    If there's "nothing solid", why post it?  Do you have any idea of the number of people name "Michael Brown"?

    I can't decide who to root for (5.00 / 3) (#100)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:21:56 AM EST
    Westboro Baptist Church Says It Will Go to Iraq to Protest ISIS

    In a move certainly worthy of its status as the fringiest of the far-right fringe hate groups, the Westboro Baptist Church congregation says it's going to accept an offer by a popular Australian comedian to fly members to Iraq to protest the beheading of Christians by the Islamic terror group ISIS, Addicting Info reports.

    After learning that members of the antigay church planned to protest the funeral of Robin Williams, comedian Adam Hills challenged them to really live their stated values and offered them a proposition on his television show, The Last Leg.

    "If you really believe in standing up to those threatening the Christian way of life, Westboro Baptist Church, how about putting your money where your mouth is, taking a direct flight to Iraq," he said this week, also offering to pay for first-class airfare.

    Church members took Hills's offer seriously and announced their acceptance on Twitter:

    What are they Nuts? (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:26:35 AM EST
    OK... I do know the answer to that question....

    but double WOW on this..

    an Australian Comedian bring Westboro Baptist Church to Iraq to protest ISIS?


    I just hope to god (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:32:12 AM EST
    They have their usual press gaggle

    I am so (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:33:34 AM EST
    all in for funding that trip. Even airlifting them to the very front of the protest zone and printing up "Allah Hates Isis and Queers" signs for them.

    Well you know (none / 0) (#108)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:35:17 AM EST
    There is a long and mostly ignored tradition of boy love in that part if the world.

    I heard about that (none / 0) (#110)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:38:22 AM EST
    it prepares them for long hours of sitting in the hot sand.

    Ferguson pulling a Crump (5.00 / 1) (#119)
    by Uncle Chip on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:52:55 AM EST
    This is a Crump operation again

    Actually it's topsy turvy this time. He doesn't need to pull a Trayvon Martin as he has been handed a gift on a silver platter.

    It is actually the Ferguson PD who are taking the Rachel page out of the Crump playbook with this anonymous "Josie", and friend in shadow, and 12 anonymous witnesses and their partridge in a pear tree, instead of posting an incident report.

    And as far as the  autopsy, it was much more conservative than the one by the County ME. She said it was 6 to 8 bullets while Crump's ME said 6 doing all that damage.

    And  that diagram said more than the ME or his assistant or any of its detractors. Two of those wounds could only have come from the back to front or with his hands facing forward possibly no higher than head level.


    Congrats to Peter G (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:15:18 AM EST
    and your client. Work well done, sir.

    Indeed (none / 0) (#134)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:33:34 AM EST
    Well I guess this had to happen... (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by desertswine on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:39:53 PM EST
    Good One Dessertswine (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:22:54 PM EST
    Personally as a person on the left who believes strongly in the 2nd Amendment, I would consider forgoing the well regulated armed militia part, if and when the government gives up their weapons.

    I don't know (5.00 / 2) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:34:01 PM EST
    I love this story. OTOH  it could be bad.  If you are whit and throw an assault weapon party in the desert and threaten and bait the Feds, the Feds order pizza for you.  If you are black ---

    A young man holding a toy rifle in a Wal-Mart was shot and killed on Tuesday by police in the Dayton suburb of Beavercreek, Ohio, according to Raw Story. John Crawford, 22, was carrying a toy gun he picked up in the store, alarming two other shoppers.

    LeeCee Johnson, the mother of Crawford's children, told the Dayton Daily News she was on the phone with him while he was browsing in the store. "We was just talking," she told the Ohio newspaper. "He said he was at the video games playing videos and he went over there by the toy section where the toy guns were. And the next thing I know, he said `It's not real,' and the police start shooting and they said `Get on the ground,' but he was already on the ground because they had shot him. And I could hear him just crying and screaming. I feel like they shot him down like he was not even human."

    CBS reports that two other Wal-Mart customers, April and Ronald Ritchie, saw Crawford walking around the store with what appeared to be a gun and called the police. The police station reports that officers asked Crawford to put down the weapon, and opened fire when he did not comply. He later died of his gun shot wounds at a nearby hospital, where his death was ruled a homicide by the Montgomery County coroner's office. A request for comment by msnbc to the Beavercreek police department was not immediately returned.

    Wonder if Wal Mart has videos of the incident. (none / 0) (#187)
    by Angel on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:40:52 PM EST
    There is (none / 0) (#188)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:44:50 PM EST
    Two deaths from this incident. (none / 0) (#191)
    by Angel on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:00:10 PM EST
    Wright also said the family expressed condolences to the family and friends of Angela Williams, 37, who died after suffering a medical problem while evacuating the store.

    Black Power! (none / 0) (#184)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:23:31 PM EST
    St. Louis Post Dispatch front page tomorrow. (5.00 / 2) (#190)
    by magster on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:54:06 PM EST
    Michael Brown may not have been a perfect (5.00 / 4) (#204)
    by Angel on Sun Aug 24, 2014 at 09:08:25 AM EST
    person but that still doesn't mean he deserved to be shot down and killed.  

    Oath Keepers (4.75 / 4) (#89)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 08:45:23 AM EST
    In the latest embarrassment for local law enforcement, an officer from the St. Louis County Police Department was removed from active duty on Friday after a video surfaced in which he boasted of being "a killer."

    Officer Dan Page, a 35-year police force veteran who had also served in the U.S. military, was removed from patrol duties and placed in an administrative position pending an internal investigation.

    In the video, Page is seen addressing a St. Louis chapter of the Oath Keepers, a conservative group of former servicemen, saying, "I'm also a killer. I've killed a lot, and if I need to I'll kill a whole bunch more. If you don't want to get killed, don't show up in front of me."

    He also made disparaging remarks about Muslims, gays, Supreme Court justices and expressed the view that the United States was on the verge of collapse.


    More on the Oath Keepers at Digby's

    Those (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:27:20 AM EST
    people are a piece of work. They're birthers, one world conspiracy theoritsts and a whole bunch of other stuff all wrapped up together.

    Squeaky you tease (4.00 / 4) (#99)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:20:10 AM EST
    what are trying to do? get jb hot by linking to that video?

    But seriously, is it just me, or does "Oath Keepers" sound just a tad overly Teutonic..a tad Thirties Germany..? Hail Woton, Der Fatherland,  the Thousand Year Right, and our Sacred Oaths.

    Not to stereotype.

    What I've suspected right along about a lot (not all) so-called "libertarian" groups is that they serve as the most viable of several imperfect outlets for a certain troubled personality type with a deep-seated desire to vent his or her sadistic urges on the least powerful in society. Right up there with working in the DAs office..

    I bet they're all social liberals too.


    Heh (none / 0) (#106)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:32:56 AM EST
    Not to stereotype

    You do have a way.....


    Well (none / 0) (#109)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:37:02 AM EST
    I've been keeping my mind lubricated and nimble lately with a strict, Spartan, drug and alcohol regimen.

    American Ninja Warriors look out.


    Amen (none / 0) (#113)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:40:49 AM EST
    Breakfast of champions

    Freikorps? (none / 0) (#111)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:39:41 AM EST
    In addition to maintaining a web site, Oath Keepers has taken various actions. It placed a billboard at the D.C. Metro White House Station on August 12, 2013, directed toward White House employees, stating, "Snowden honored his oath. Honor yours! Stop Big Brother! Expose unconstitutional actions."

    MSNBC political commentator and former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan, quoting the Las Vegas Review-Journal,[13] said "Oath Keepers, depending on where one stands, are either strident defenders of liberty or dangerous peddlers of paranoia." Buchanan explained their existence on the alienation of white America, concluding that "America was once their country. They sense they are losing it. And they are right."

    And SPLC is concerned

    In the Southern Poverty Law Center's (SPLC) 2009 report The Second Wave: Return of the Militias, Larry Keller, a writer for the SPLC, wrote that the Oath Keepers "may be a particularly worrisome example of the Patriot revival."

    ...a former Army paratrooper in Afghanistan and Iraq described President Obama as "an enemy of the state," adding, "I would rather die than be a slave to my gov- ernment." The Oath Keepers site soon began hawking T-shirts with slogans like "I'm a Right Wing Extremist and Damn Proud of It!"

    Mack's views echo those of the Posse Comitatus, which believed that sheriffs are the highest law enforcement authorities in America. "I pray for the day that a sheriff in this country will arrest an IRS agent for trespassing or attempting to victimize citizens in that particular sheriff 's county," Mack said in a video he made for Oath Keepers.

    The Second Wave
    Return of the Militias

    If my memory serves me correct ppj has rattled on about Posse Comitatus, no?


    Rattled is a good word for it (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:47:10 AM EST
    then around midday, he catches a mouse and gets under a rock out of the direct sun to digest his meal.

    One of my main concerns is this pressure cooker of Angry White Man-Guns R Us paranoia that the Becks of the world are constantly teasing and feeding into..

    How soon before one of these full-of-rage loons goes off?


    I think (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:11:37 AM EST
    they've already gone off. Let's see one was shooting Sikhs in Wisconsin. One was going up the Tides Foundation buidling in SF. That's just two off the top of my head.

    squeaky (none / 0) (#170)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:57:59 PM EST
    If my memory serves me correct ppj has rattled on about Posse Comitatus, no?

    And you have a link??

    Yes?? No??


    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:19:27 PM EST
    Hooey (1.00 / 0) (#202)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 03:07:00 PM EST
    In your first example I discuss private security guards and the % of LA NG deployed in Iraq.

    The second is about about the use of NG in LA during Katrina... in which I note

    I doubt that this will get through to you, but one more time. It doesn't work like that. The state has to call for help. To have it otherwise would make us just like one of the Bananna Republics. And, since you don't understand that, I can see why you think Bush is just about to take over the country. The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878

    "In a nutshell, this act bans the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines from participating in arrests, searches, seizure of evidence and other police-type activity on U.S. soil. The Coast Guard and National Guard troops under the control of state governors are excluded from the act."

    And your last example is from a conversation regarding faith and secularism...

    Really squeaky. Why do you make things up???


    Too bad Jeralyn is busy.... (none / 0) (#1)
    by magster on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 02:07:33 PM EST
    there's some issues from the Ferguson clusterbleep that her opinion would be interesting to see re: Wilson and Ferguson PD silence and no incident report, the grand jury proceeding, and what the US Attorney is likely doing right now with its own investigation.

    Incident Report (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 06:27:04 PM EST
    Where's the Incident Report

    The choice not to release the incident report for the killing becomes all the more puzzling as sources, granted either partial or total anonymity, have begun talking to the media, telling what is purportedly officer Wilson's side of the story, which would be reflected in the incident report.

    Former NYPD commissioner Ray Kelly, himself no stranger to controversy over heavy-handed police tactics, has said that the trickle of information released by authorities is helping to fuel the unrest that has engulfed Ferguson.

    Telling the public what happened "certainly has the potential for quelling or lessening disturbances," Kelly said. "You tell them what you know and tell them what you don't know, rather than dribbling it out."...

    The one-sided and piecemeal disclosure of potentially irrelevant and prejudicial information, while continuing to withhold the critical police incident report that the public has demanded, suggests a desire to confuse rather than to shine a light on what happened."

    UPDATE: Ferguson City Attorney, Stephanie Karr told The Huffington Post that the St. Louis County Police Department is in charge of deciding when the shooting incident report will be released.

    [So are we to assume that an incident report has already been turned over to the County and they just haven't released it or are they still working on it]


    the problem, from my perspective, (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by NYShooter on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:06:46 PM EST
    is that there are several incidence reports, and, several jurisdictions involved in investigating this case.

    It would be nice if someone could straighten this out for the public, and, tell us who is involved, who has jurisdiction, and, what each party's role is. Between the Town, The County, The State, and, The Federal Government, who can figure out what's going on?

    While I have a little experience in these things, I'm far from an expert. But, in my experience, this is the worst, most confused, and most disorganized handling of a police shooting I can remember.

    Not to belabor all the things the FDP did wrong, I'd just like to point out one:

    The minute a police officer fires his weapon, and, kills or injures a suspect, his active involvement in the case ceases. He informs his superiors, surrenders his weapon, and, writes up his incident report.

    But, whether he has to turn over his report is an open question. Of course, we think he, absolutely, should, but, if there's a chance he might be indicted, the question of self-incrimination comes into play. Things like amnesty have to be considered. On top of all that, different agencies have different rules.

    The problem with Ferguson is, they're not telling us anything, anything of value, that is. And, what they are telling us is so obviously tainted in favor of Officer Wilson that whatever they say has to be looked at with that in mind.  


    To NY Shooter (none / 0) (#59)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:56:20 PM EST
    Your point is right on target.

    If the officer feels that he may be indicted then he may not want to fill out an incident report -- in so doing exercise his Constitutional right against self-incrimination.

    That should then be noted however as it would and should temper anyone fictionalizing the event on his behalf.

    And yet instead of leaving it at that his Chief the day after starts to tell the public what happened as if he is reading it right from the incident report given to him by the officer.

    He says that there was a struggle for the gun in the front seat and the gun went off but didn't hit anybody and Brown ran.

    Where did he get that information if not from the officer???

    The Chief then skips over what happened next and jumps right to the end stating that there was a body 35 feet from the SUV with brass scattered all the way. Not a word about anyone charging the officer or bumrushing him.

    The Chief's silence about what happened from the door to 35 feet away was not lost on any of the reporters present. It was clear that the Chief knew that what happened during those 35 feet was not good for the officer or the department.


    I vote for 'still working on it.' (none / 0) (#54)
    by Angel on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 06:57:01 PM EST
    Yes, maybe they have to keep revising it (none / 0) (#56)
    by Green26 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:23:50 PM EST
    to try to be consistent with all the witness statements and audio/video. It may be becoming fairly difficult to keep the police party line even remotely consistent with what witnesses are saying.

    The Ferguson Clusterbleep (none / 0) (#33)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 04:31:03 PM EST
    Two other things:

    Did they move the SUV early on and why would they do that if that is where the incident began and the first shot took place??? It should have been processed on the spot.

    And did they ever mark the locations of the shell casings on the ground as is usually the case at crime scenes?

    If they did neither of these things then why was his body lying in the street for 3-4 hours?

    What were they doing all that time???

    Were they too busy collecting all the cellphones from the residents to actually process the scene???


    Amateur hour start to finish (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 05:55:17 AM EST
    Premature to judge? (none / 0) (#133)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:32:24 AM EST
    It occurs to me that if it were (none / 0) (#136)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:43:08 AM EST
    jbindc making your consistently pro-law enforcement comments, she'd be savaged 6 ways from Sunday; what saves you - the 5-words-or-fewer, flying-under-the-radar composition?

    So far, the dearth of good judgment on the part of law enforcement is damning, and waiting until hell freezes over to "judge" isn't going to change that.


    I do not seem to be flying under your (5.00 / 1) (#138)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:50:27 AM EST
    radar. If it matters, my current altitude is approximately 30,000 feet above sea level.

    Nevertheless, I think it is best to reserve judgment as to whether any officer-involved shooting is justifiable until the officer-involved shooting investigation is complete and becomes public record.

    Of course, this does not result to good blog-fodder.


    It must be the altitude (none / 0) (#139)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:58:14 AM EST
    That allows you to see the 9to3 white  to black makeup of the grand jury as no big deal.  And in fact "reflecting the makeup of the county" or words to that effect.

    Do you think the judge should hand pick (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:12:54 PM EST
    the county grand jury by ethnicity?

    I think that is a ridiculous question (none / 0) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:25:47 PM EST
    And it makes my point.  You don't get it.

    Lots of noise but no (none / 0) (#162)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:38:15 PM EST
    opinion as to a better method for selecting grand jurors. I "get it."  But think it is preferable to wait for release of the officer-involved shooting investigation as opposed to reaching conclusions prior to that.

    NYT re evaluating the objective (none / 0) (#172)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:00:15 PM EST
    reasonaleness of a law enforcement officer's use of force:



    BTW, searching the P.D. Website did not bring (none / 0) (#192)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:01:35 PM EST
    up the General Order referenced in the article.

    If the question is (none / 0) (#173)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:00:29 PM EST
    Should an effort be made to have a grand jury, especially in a case with this profile, look a bit more like the community, the answer is IMO yes.

    Depends on definition of (5.00 / 1) (#175)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:04:10 PM EST
    "community". For purposes of a county grand jury or a trial in state court, the community is the county. I really can't see a fairer method than the one employed here.

    Whatever (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:07:11 PM EST
    I give up

    Don't. It's easy to (none / 0) (#178)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:14:14 PM EST
    argue the system is unfair. Ferguson doesn't have a court system that prosecutes felonies, does it?

    I was just (none / 0) (#3)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 02:33:47 PM EST
    perusing the UE numbers by state. Georgia has the second highest UE rate in the country topped only by MS. Even NV and MI score lower on UE than we do. Well, this is what we get for having Nathan Deal for a govenor.

    Global Warming Hiatus (Oceans are taking the Heat) (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:41:27 PM EST
    Following rapid warming in the late 20th century, this century has so far seen surprisingly little increase in the average temperature at the Earth's surface. At first this was a blip, then a trend, then a puzzle for the climate science community.

    More than a dozen theories have now been proposed for the so-called global warming hiatus, ranging from air pollution to volcanoes to sunspots. New research from the University of Washington shows that the heat absent from the surface is plunging deep in the north and south Atlantic Ocean, and is part of a naturally occurring cycle. The study is published Aug. 22 in Science.

    Subsurface ocean warming explains why global average air temperatures have flatlined since 1999, despite greenhouse gases trapping more solar heat at the Earth's surface.


    Thanks squeaky (2.00 / 1) (#146)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:12:27 PM EST
    A very interesting article that proves, again, that the earth's temperature has become stable and offers a theory as to why.

    If I understand, the warm water has become more dense allowing it to sink beneath the cold water and that this is a 30 year cycle which means we have about 15 more years of cooler weather.


    Edited Cliff Note Version? (5.00 / 3) (#156)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:24:40 PM EST
    Not surprised that you have read only what you want to read and skipped the fact that this report is in no way contradicting the majority of climate science pointing to serious climate instability due to human activity.

    "There are recurrent cycles that are salinity-driven that can store heat deep in the Atlantic and Southern oceans," Tung said. "After 30 years of rapid warming in the warm phase, now it's time for the cool phase."

    Rapid warming in the last two and a half decades of the 20th century, they proposed in an earlier study, was roughly half due to global warming and half to the natural Atlantic Ocean cycle that kept more heat near the surface. When observations show the ocean cycle flipped, in about 2000, the current began to draw heat deeper into the ocean, working to counteract human-driven warming.

    The cycle starts when saltier, denser water at the surface northern part of the Atlantic, near Iceland, causes the water to sink. This changes the speed of the huge current in the Atlantic Ocean that circulates heat throughout the planet.

    "When it's heavy water on top of light water, it just plunges very fast and takes heat with it," Tung said. Recent observations at the surface in the North Atlantic show record-high saltiness, Tung said, while at the same time, deeper water in the North Atlantic shows increasing amounts of heat.

    Changes in Atlantic Ocean circulation historically meant roughly 30 warmer years followed by 30 cooler years. Now that it is happening on top of global warming, however, the trend looks more like a staircase.

    This explanation implies that the current slowdown in global warming could last for another decade, or longer, and then rapid warming will return. But Tung emphasizes it's hard to predict what will happen next...

    "We are not talking about a normal situation because there are so many other things happening due to climate change," Tung said.

    You'll find that it's his SOP (none / 0) (#185)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:27:30 PM EST
    and he gets very angry if you point it out to him, and it won't stop him from doing it the next time around on a different issue.

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:05:02 PM EST
    We go waaaaaaay back bantering here at TL...

    I have his various SOPs down to a tee.

    Never changes. His value is that he is one of our portals to the
    wingnut echo chamber.


    I'm sure many here have read this (none / 0) (#35)
    by ZtoA on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 04:38:38 PM EST
    It's an interesting listing of facts about the militarization of the drug war:


    Interesting ThinkProgress article... (none / 0) (#36)
    by magster on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 04:56:34 PM EST
    that justifies the other St. Louis shooting. Internal links of police training videos showing reactive times of cops to simulated knife attacks are really interesting.

    St Louis Shooting (none / 0) (#37)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:08:48 PM EST
    As long as the cops got to go home safely to their families at the end of the day, that's all that matters. If it takes 12 bullets in poor guy to accomplish that then so what -- that's how the Chief characterized it.

    Just be glad that there weren't any dogs nearby or the death toll would have been higher.


    Certainly not a ThinkProgress article.... (none / 0) (#38)
    by magster on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:12:57 PM EST
    I expected to read. Shooting looked unjustified to me, so when TP posts an article like this with an expert on unjustified police violence opining "yeah, they were probably justified", I think it bears pointing out.

    The difference is they were (none / 0) (#39)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:20:33 PM EST
    Very transparent and made the information available.  That was NOT the same PD about which this is written -

    Ferguson police report raises more questions than it answers


    That really does help. Seems they learned (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by ruffian on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 06:12:12 AM EST
    from the mistakes of Sanford and Ferguson.

    Right.... (none / 0) (#41)
    by magster on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:22:55 PM EST
    my link is only just about the OTHER fatal police shooting in St. Louis.

    I watched the whole episode (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:27:01 PM EST
    It's a tough call.   Yes, they had tasers  but the guy was very close and charging with a knife.  OTOH the time elapsed from the time the police pull up until he is dead on the ground is less than 30 seconds.  They basically arrived guns drawn.

    He was very close because the cops (5.00 / 3) (#131)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:29:03 AM EST
    came up on the scene very close; there was no indication of an effort to assess from a safe distance, to see what was going on.  To me, the guy didn't even look that agitated, and none of the people in any proximity seemed particularly afraid.

    What I feel like we are seeing more of are cops who go right to DefCon 5, and don't take any time or make any effort to resolve anything non-violently.

    Does that guy really need to be dead?  Then again, if the mental health system is in as good a shape as law enforcement, the choices for this guy weren't that great.


    Yes and yes (none / 0) (#135)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:36:24 AM EST
    The guy was clearly disturbed.   But I do sympathize to a degree.  Hard to say what I would do with a knife wielding guy charging me yelling "kill me".

    But I completely agree that the option chosen does seem to be the default choice way to often.


    Let us compare and contrast the police (5.00 / 3) (#143)
    by caseyOR on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:05:44 PM EST
    response to Powell, a black man, with this police response in San Diego to a seemingly suicidal white man wielding not a knife but a gun.

    The police in San Diego spent an HOUR trying to talk this man down. In contrast, the police in St. Louis needed only about 17 seconds to kill Powell.

    To review: in one case a white man with a gun is shot, but not killed, after an hour of police effort to get him disarmed.

    In the other case we have a black man with a knife shot to death by police less than 30 seconds after they arrived on the scene. No effort made to talk him down.

    Could skin color possibly be the significant difference here?

    This is why I am not at all impressed with the quick and transparent response of the St. Louis department. The black man is still dead.


    Here's an article accompanied by (none / 0) (#152)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:17:24 PM EST
    video that goes to the issue of police judgment - and concludes:

    In 2012, Channel 4 looked into how often officers fired their weapons and found that in the last two years British cops had discharged their weapons just 5 times. Just twice were they used to fatally injure a suspect. The idea that cops could kill someone is so offensive to the English mindset that after one such incident, thousands of Londoners rioted in the streets in protest.

    By contrast, nobody knows how many people American police kill because not standardized way of measuring this seemingly very important bit of information exists, but the closest number researchers have come up with is roughly 400 a year. Sure, America is larger; but not that much larger. Sure, America is more violent, but not that much more violent. There is something else going on here.

    Police in America seem all to willing to shoot-to-kill instead of finding non-lethal solutions. Are most cops homicidal psychopaths? Of course not, but the policing culture has certainly shifted towards viewing their role as occupiers in dangerous territory rather than protectors of citizens. The bigger, badder military toys they insist they need attest to that. Somewhere along the way - if I had to guess, it would be right after 9/11 - the police started viewing the world as much more dangerous. They needed bigger guns, stronger cars, and more lethal tactics to combat the perception (if not the reality) that the streets they were policing had turned against them.

    I don't know if you saw the video (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:17:50 PM EST
    But the guy charged them knife up yelling kill me as soon as they got out of the car.  There was no "talking" to this guy.

    I noticed a couple things in that video, (none / 0) (#161)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:37:28 PM EST
    which I've seen at least 4 times now.

    One - the first time I saw it, I didn't realize the man walking slowly back and forth on the sidewalk was the disturbed man.  He could be waiting for a ride or a bus or a friend - he just doesn't look like someone who's about a minute from being shot dead.

    Two - the man makes no threatening moves toward any of the people walking by him in close proximity.  None of those people seemed afraid to me.

    Three - it is the sight of the cops that really agitates him; it is the first time he seems truly animated.

    So, I go back to my point, with some additions: apparently, it was the store clerk that called it in.  Did the cops, the operator, anyone, get any information about what he was seeing, what the man was doing, where he was walking?

    Why roll right up on him, when even from the same distance as the guy with the cell phone was, you can see there's no one near him?  Why not start from a distance, have one car approach from another direction to see what's what?

    These men were treated like rabid dogs, and left on the ground like so much meat.


    The report I saw also used the (none / 0) (#166)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:45:52 PM EST
    Store video.  It seemed the guy clearly wanted a confrontation.  First he took something from the store without paying.  When the clerk did not respond he went back and took two energy drinks.  He not not try to steal, or to conceal them in any way,  them he just walked out with them.  Then we switch to the outside video which is where it sounds like yours started.   The thing you need to know is that everyone at that point knew the police were on their way.  That's why the guy was shooting video.  What does he do? He places the two energy drinks on the sidewalk by the curb and starts packing back and forth.  It was the arrival of the police that set him off but he was clearly waiting for them.

    Yeah, it occurred to me that this (none / 0) (#168)
    by Anne on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:53:03 PM EST
    was a suicide-by-cop in the making, but since when do police indulge that kind of disturbed thinking?

    When the only person whose life is in danger is the disturbed man, why aren't the cops approaching this situation in a way that has a better chance of ultimately saving this man from himself?


    Goog question (none / 0) (#169)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:56:22 PM EST
    A few years ago I remember a lot of talk about non-lethal tools for law enforcement.  What happened to that?

    Can't look or act tough when your weapons are (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by Angel on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:58:29 PM EST

    Great point and one I hadn't thought of.... (none / 0) (#141)
    by magster on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:00:17 PM EST
    Yeah, why did the cops pull their cars to within that 21 ft. zone when they knew the guy had a knife?

    Ok (none / 0) (#147)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:12:43 PM EST
    Just being devils advocate
    The way I remember the video the cops probably, because of where the guy was, didn't see him until they were within a few feet.  They would have needed to go past the guy, park and come back to be that far away.   Should they have done that?  Probably.  But that seems easy for me to say after the fact.

    My question would be if they had to shoot him why not just stop him, which is not that hard with a hand gun, instead of pumping 9 bullets into him in the space of about 5 case nods.

    Further I thought it was rather disgusting to roll a guy you just shot 9 times, and who is almost certainly quite dead, over and cuff him.


    Jeez (none / 0) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:14:21 PM EST
    Space of about 5 SECONDS

    Cops are trained to shoot to kill, (none / 0) (#151)
    by caseyOR on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:17:23 PM EST
    not to injure or slow down someone. Once a cop commits to firing a gun there is only one goal, the death of the person being shot.

    Cuffing the body was disgusting. Not a sliver of decency shown toward the man they had just slaughtered.


    Is that true? (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:21:25 PM EST
    Shooting to kill by default?  If so maybe we as a society should have a little talk about that.

    Yes, it is true. That is why police are (5.00 / 2) (#160)
    by caseyOR on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:27:56 PM EST
    also trained, or are supposed to be trained, to defuse situations before things get so bad the only option is to kill someone.

    Sems like police all over the country could use a refresher course in non-lethal intervention techniques.

    Of course, when you are armed like the military and dressed like the military everybody becomes the enemy.


    The internal link to youtube.... (none / 0) (#46)
    by magster on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:53:07 PM EST
    showing reaction times to a knife wielding suspect.

    Basically 15 ft if hand on gun, 21 feet if hand not on gun, and 10 ft if gun already drawn (though dicey).

    thank you for posting the link to that (none / 0) (#58)
    by crimebird on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:50:12 PM EST
    video...very interesting and sobering

    Adviser Says Military Action Possible Against ISIS (none / 0) (#43)
    by Green26 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:40:45 PM EST
    From a NY Times article:

    "A top national security adviser to President Obama vowed Friday that the United States would "do what is necessary" in Syria to protect American interests and said that direct military action was possible against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, known as ISIS."

    Benjamin J. Rhodes, the deputy national security adviser, said ISIS had become an increased threat to the United States, a threat the American government was taking seriously."

    "If you come against Americans, we are going to come after you," Mr. Rhodes said."

    "On Thursday, Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that the only way to defeat ISIS was for the United States or its allies to take the fight to the militants inside Syria. "This is an organization that has an apocalyptic end-of-days strategic vision that will eventually have to be defeated," Mr. Dempsey told reporters. "Can they be defeated without addressing that part of the organization that resides in Syria? The answer is no."

    ""We will take whatever action is necessary to protect our people," Mr. Rhodes said. "We will take direct action against terrorists that threaten the United States."

    Gotta object... (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 05:48:33 PM EST
    to this "threat to the United States" business...I see no threat to the United States. Threat to Americans in the Middle East, threat to Iraqis and Syrians...hell yeah. But no threat to the 50 states...Canada is a greater threat to the United States.

    It's that kinda hyperbole that gets us into unnecessary wars and occupations that accomplish little and harm many.


    Dias Kadyrbayev Changes Plea to Guilty (none / 0) (#48)
    by RickyJim on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 06:12:25 PM EST
    He was the friend of Boston Marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev who removed and disposed of a backpack with emptied fireworks from Dzhokhar's dormitory room.  Earlier in the summer, another friend Azamat Tazhayakov was convicted of conspiracy and obstruction of justice for the same act, even though he wasn't the one who actually handled the backpack.  Obviously Dias saw how hopeless it was to go to trial now and took a plea deal in which the prosecutors agreed not to ask for more than 7 years.  

    One Curious Thing (none / 0) (#96)
    by RickyJim on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 09:56:02 AM EST
    Apparently you can be convicted of "obstruction of justice" even if justice was not actually obstructed, at least I don't think the prosecution claimed that the backpack removal somehow prevented them from finding or prosecuting Tsarnaev.  Thus I am confused about the real difference between committing a crime and conspiring to commit one as far as the law goes.  

    The federal offense generally referred to (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Peter G on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:56:37 AM EST
    as "obstruction of justice" is actually the offense of "endeavoring to obstruct justice."  Or the actual offense charged may have been tampering with evidence, 18 USC 1512(c).  You can't make detailed assumptions based on characterizations in a news story; you'd have to look at the actual legal documents.  In neither event does this case seem to have anything to do with any conspiracy charge.

    Osho (none / 0) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 06:16:02 PM EST
    Popped up on FB.  seemed worth sharing.  Happy Friday night.

    ------your real self - which is not created by you, which need not be created by you, which you already are. You are born with it. You are it! It needs to be discovered. If this is not possible, or if the society does not allow it to happen - and no society allows it to happen, because the real self is dangerous: dangerous for the established church, dangerous for the state, dangerous for the crowd, dangerous for the tradition, because once a man knows his real self, he becomes an individual.

    He belongs no more to the mob psychology; he will not be superstitious, and he cannot be exploited. And he cannot be led like cattle, he cannot be ordered and commanded. He will live according to his light; he will live from his own inwardness. His life will have tremendous beauty, integrity. But that is the fear of the society.

    here's a question for Jeralyn... (none / 0) (#60)
    by crimebird on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:59:07 PM EST
    ...under what circumstances do sealed juvenile records become accessible in a case like this? For example suppose the police officer is charged, would the lawyer defending him be able to access those records and if they contained information he or she deemed relevant to the defense disclose them in court? And are juvenile criminal records still protected if the person involved is dead? My question is prompted by reading that someone in the media was suing to obtain those records. As for whether this is right or wrong, my personal opinion would be: a. in the case of a lawyer seeking access to those records to defend his or her client, it would be warranted if those records showed something pertinent. b. in the case of the media trying to get access to those records, I'm less certain but leaning toward no. I don't even know if Brown had a sealed juvenile record but I have a feeling that if this case goes to trial, the question of whether he did will get answered.

    Juvenile Records (none / 0) (#66)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 10:23:47 PM EST
    It's a little early in the legal process to be talking about juvenile records.

    The fact that some want to go there, before there is even an incident report, tells me that the police department knows that it has a problem.

    But I think they knew that the minute they arrived on the scene.


    I don't know about that... (none / 0) (#76)
    by crimebird on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 03:25:39 AM EST
    maybe Brown has a completely squeaky clean record both as an adult and a minor (apart from the robbery at the store the day he died). But if he did have a serious juvenile record, I could imagine it would be awfully galling for people aware of that because of their official positions to hear Brown described as a "gentle giant" and all that. If Brown does not have a sealed juvenile record of some significance, it would be smart to get that fact out in the public domain as soon as possible to preclude people from just making things up about him.

    Anyone remember (none / 0) (#86)
    by ragebot on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 07:47:06 AM EST
    How long it took for the stuff about Martin's juvi record to be leaked?  Maybe just my faulty memory but it seems like the stuff in that case kept coming out in dribs and drabs forever.

    What "juvi record"? (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Yman on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 08:02:56 AM EST
    He didn't have one.

    Also on Monday, authorities confirmed to the Associated Press that Martin did not have a juvenile offender record.

    Wrong Michael Brown (none / 0) (#98)
    by Jack203 on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:18:34 AM EST
    The age of the Michael Brown that committed the St Ann armed robbery is 17.  That's pretty convincing they have the different one.

    Brown could have been 17 (none / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:42:45 AM EST
    last November.

    You were on firmer ground (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:14:48 AM EST
    when you said Holder was covering for the New Black Panthers. Hell, 'course he was.

    All four of them? (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:43:11 AM EST
    No, just (none / 0) (#144)
    by MKS on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:05:46 PM EST
    two of them at the line for the voting both.

    But they have extra special powers so they count like double.


    jondee (none / 0) (#155)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:23:45 PM EST
    you're making things up again.


    Do you realize what that makes you?


    You? (5.00 / 2) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:27:47 PM EST
    Don't know who made up what (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:23:22 PM EST
    but you did write this a little over two years ago:

    I'm not an attorney and didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

    But I would say offering money to someone to kill someone is illegal.

    Holder should have shut these guys down over their actions in Phil during the election. But he didn't. Now every time they are shown on TV Obama loses votes.

    That was great (none / 0) (#116)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:46:23 AM EST
    The coffee on my iPad was worth the guffaw

    But there is no proof that this is the same (none / 0) (#120)
    by Mordiggian 88 on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:56:31 AM EST
    individual, so speculation is futile until the facts come in.

    How many people here are 'hoping' that the perp is the same Michael Brown?


    Hope everyone who cares saw (none / 0) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:58:33 AM EST
    The Knick last night.  Amazing.  Now you have to check out

    Previously TV

    Who asks

    Battle Of The Operatically Ruined Faces
    One's a lady ravaged by disease, the other a WWI sharpshooter. Who's in direr straits?

    Important questions like
    Whose "apparatus" disguises the situation less elegantly?

    Who's less able to convert his/her circumstances into a career skill?

    Fell asleep (none / 0) (#124)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:59:36 AM EST
    It awaits me though for my indoor workout today :)

    This has become (none / 0) (#127)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:07:43 AM EST
    My favorite tv thang

    I love this show (5.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Slado on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:02:20 PM EST
    I love the shooting style and color of Mr. Soderberg.   It lends itself perfectly to this piece of work.   Darker full colors create the dimlylit reality of a city and a time before electricity was fully commonplace.

    I also find it remarkable how well the show is researched and depicts NYC even though it's shot in Brooklyn.   One always thinks about Europe and London when you think of period pieces but New York lends itself so we'll to this type of period piece.

    Ironically enough I watched Godfather II this weekend and it was interesting to see the simarities with the Little Italy scenes shot so well by Mr. Coppala.

    I also like Soderberg using his typical soundtrack filling in behind the cut scenes building anticipation and moving the story along when there is no conversation from the actors.

    Owen is great, the honest and harsh take on life, class and death emmerce us in a time period we can't possibly relate to.

    Great stuff.


    Victorians getting off on flea invasion (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:05:10 PM EST
    Causing you to tear your clothes off :). What a fantasy :)

    Yes to all (none / 0) (#179)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:16:18 PM EST
    The sound track is very Soderbergh.   Also I think the racial story line is amazing.  Almost unbelievable and yet completely believeable.  Two things I loved about last nights episode - the "busy flea" and the fight scene at the very end.

    Three things.  The amazing seamless effects of the woman's face.   That is not easy to do with him poking around in it.


    Did not realize that syphilis could (none / 0) (#189)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:53:55 PM EST
    Destroy your nose.  I watched 'The Libertine' but never understood what supposedly happened to his nose :)

    It's so freakin hot (none / 0) (#193)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:03:33 PM EST
    And HBO will let you watch Six Feet Under on demand.

    Is this guy a libertarian? (none / 0) (#197)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:32:25 PM EST
    Why Would You Think That? (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:37:31 PM EST

    I would not play either... but I would not leave the barista a $100. tip either.


    B/C of this: (none / 0) (#200)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 02:55:36 PM EST
    "I had to put an end to it," Schorsh wrote on his blog.

    He said the act of kindness wasn't driven by altruism, but rather peer pressure. Because people felt obligated to pay it forward, the generosity wasn't genuine enough for Schorsh.

    "I just don't want to be forced into doing something," he told ABC News. "This is turning into a social phenomenon and I had to put an end to it."

    I read that the White House... (none / 0) (#203)
    by crimebird on Sun Aug 24, 2014 at 01:18:05 AM EST
    ...is sending three people to attend Brown's funeral. I hope that is an indicator that Brown did not have a significant juvenile record and that there is tangible evidence he was a completely innocent victim. Because if it turns out that neither of those are the case, the White House is going to look...bad.