home

Ferguson Updates

Ferguson was fairly calm Tuesday night, with most people peacefully protesting.

AG Eric Holder arrives in Ferguson today. Here is his letter to the people of Ferguson.

Gov. Nixon said the county prosecutor will stay on the case for now, rejecting calls for a special prosecutor. (the St. Louis County Circuit Court grand jury is scheduled to commence hearing testimony today.)

I won't be online much today, so you can use this thread for all Michael Brown/Ferguson related topics.

< New ISIS Video Warns Obama and Shows Beheading of U.S. Journalist | Pentagon Insists Mosul Dam Strikes Aren't Mission Creep >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Per Mr. Holder: (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:46:25 AM EST
    Hundreds of people have already been interviewed in connection with this matter.

    Rhetorical question:  does the county prosecutor have those interviews?  If not, should he proceed tomorrow with the grand jury?

    We don't know how many of the interviews (none / 0) (#2)
    by SuzieTampa on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:46:14 AM EST
    were productive, in regard to this case. People may have spoken to the FBI about civil-rights issue, even though they didn't witness the shooting or have any relevant information on this case.

    In general, however, I agree that rushing this doesn't serve either side.  

    Parent

    As I posted earlier in another thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:49:20 AM EST
    why is a grand jury starting before the investigation is complete.  Time is reporting the investigation could take months and wonders if the grand jury should have this evidence.

    link

    Also have to wonder if Missouri gov calling for 'vigorous prosecution' of Ferguson shooting case qualifies as undue pressure on the grand jury.

    Parent

    Witnesses (none / 0) (#38)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:45:39 PM EST

    If a case can be made by available witnesses, doing so with fresh memories has something to recommend.

    Parent
    Kendall Coffey (none / 0) (#6)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:27:08 AM EST
    Just said the federal investigation was separate.  Actually I think he said "completely separaet"

    Parent
    If Kendall Coffey (none / 0) (#7)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:28:59 AM EST
    Knows what he is talking about.  ??

    Parent
    longer report of MCCulloch media press conf today (none / 0) (#32)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:07:25 PM EST
    longer report of
    by Stephanie Baumer / KMOV.com staff
    KMOV.com
    Posted on August 20, 2014 at 11:03 AM
    Updated today at 11:19 AM
    Related:
    Protest held outside St. Louis County Prosecutors office
    Grand Jury could hear Brown case Wednesday
    ST. LOUIS, Mo. (KMOV.com) - St. Louis County Prosecutor Bob McCulloch spoke to members of the media Wednesday morning about the grand jury case involving the Ferguson police shooting.
    McCulloch said he will begin presenting evidence to the grand jury on Wednesday in the case of Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, who shot and killed Michael Brown, who was unarmed at the time. McCulloch said he does not expect the case to be resolved before mid-October.  He said he wants every piece of paper, photograph and piece of evidence available to the jury before they make a decision.
    McCulloch said the grand jury will continue with their regular case load and will be presented evidence and information in the Ferguson case as it becomes available. After the jurors complete their regular case load, they will become a special grand jury responsible only for the Ferguson case.
    When asked how many witnesses have been interviewed in the case, he stated "dozens and dozens." He also said none of the evidence in the grand jury case can legally be released until the case is completed.
    McCulloch's father worked for the St. Louis Police Department, he was killed while responding to a call involving a black suspect. When asked about his father's death and if it would affect him in this case, he said he has worked his entire adult career to bring justice, regardless of who the case involves.
    McCulloch also addressed the question as to whether he would step down from the case because of his father's death.
    "I have no intention of walking away from the responsibilities and duties entrusted to me by the entire community," he said.
    He continued that the only person who can pull him off of the case is Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon who has not contacted McCulloch regarding the issue.

    Parent
    Good question. (none / 0) (#95)
    by Green26 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:22:43 AM EST
    What's the rush? My concern, which I know others have, is that the prosecutor may not be committed to prosecuting. Grand juries are fed information and given arguments by prosecutors, usually in favor of deciding to charge. The process can be a bit unfair. I assume a prosecutor can also guide the process to encourage the grand jury not to charge. I'm not an expert on grand juries, so maybe others of you can shed more like on this. Maybe it's already been discussed, as I haven't read this thread at all or most of the other threads.

    I assume the feds could step in and bring charges. Usually, I don't like this, but this might be a situation that would merit federal charges. I haven't decided for sure which way this all should go yet, as the facts are still coming out, and quite disputed.

    Parent

    Another reply to Donald (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by SuzieTampa on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:34:58 AM EST
    From the previous closed thread: As the NYT reports today (and has been reported elsewhere), the attorney for Dorian Johnson says that Johnson acknowledges that he and Brown stole cigarillos. The NYT also uses the term "robbery."

    This story mentions conflicting statements from witnesses, including one who says Brown and Wilson were only about 6-7 feet apart when Wilson fired. (I'm not saying that's correct. I'm only pointing out that witnesses differ.)

    Then why hasn't he been arrested? (none / 0) (#12)
    by citizenjeff on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:02:52 AM EST
     "...Mr. Johnson admitted [to police] that he and Mr. Brown had stolen cigarillos from the store, said the lawyer, Freeman R. Bosley Jr."


    Parent
    probably no arrest (none / 0) (#14)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:07:09 AM EST
    because the store declined to press charges.  It was not the store but a customer who called 911 and reported the incident.

    Parent
    And it would just make things much worse (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:05:28 AM EST
    Yes, but... (none / 0) (#68)
    by citizenjeff on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:26:26 PM EST
    Can't the police arrest him anyway?

    Parent
    no (none / 0) (#71)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:29:31 PM EST
    no complaint


    Parent
    Mr. Johnson admitted [to police] that he and Mr. B (none / 0) (#25)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:49:51 AM EST
    This statement was not and is not true.

    The police admitted right up front that Johnson committed no crime in the store.

    The video showed where Brown gives Johnson the box of cigars, and then when there is an argument at the counter, Johnson reaches around Brown and puts the box of cigars back on the counter.


    Parent

    In an interview with msnbc shortly after (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:23:25 AM EST
    In an interview with msnbc shortly after the report was released, Johnson's lawyer confirmed that Brown had taken cigars from the store.

    "We see that there's tape, that they claim they got a tape that shows there was some sort of strong-armed robbery," said Freeman Bosley, Johnson's attorney. "We need to see that tape, my client did tell us and told the FBI that they went into the store. He told FBI that [Brown] did take cigarillos. He told that to the DOJ and the St. Louis County Police."



    Parent
    You might want to tell his attorney that (none / 0) (#27)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:04:46 AM EST
    Via KDSK

    FERGUSON, Mo. (AP) - The friend who was with Michael Brown when he was shot and killed by a police officer near St. Louis over the weekend is reportedly confirming that he and Brown had taken part in the theft of cigars from a convenience store that day.

    That word comes from the attorney for Dorian Johnson, speaking to MSNBC. Police in Ferguson had earlier announced that Brown was suspected of taking cigars from the convenience store in what was described as a "strong-arm robbery."

    So, is attorney lying?  Why we would do that?

    Parent

    Johnson was there, which certainly (none / 0) (#31)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:02:49 PM EST
    can be construed as "taking part," but what Johnson admitted to is that it was Brown that took the items, not himself.  

    Parent
    You Mean... (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:12:58 PM EST
    ...he thought Brown took the items.  The second video makes it clear, that it's almost impossible to figure out what he actually did, it could be reasonably argued both ways.

    So unless his friend was paying close attention, he probably doesn't know one way or another.

    But it's not good for a friend to assume they were stolen, either way.  If anything you would think he would go the other way since he's dead.  But that does add credibility to his version of events later.

    It's funny how his versions of that incident is rock solid evidence, but his version of the events soon after, are cr@p.  

    JB stated yesterday the cop yelling, "Get the F on the sidewalk" was you speculating, even though the eye witness is the same person she is using today as proof of Brown's crime.

    Parent

    Actually (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:41:07 PM EST
    I said Johnson's attorney said he was there and had knowledge of the theft.

    And, Johnson does have a potential credibility problem,a s well as his own potential legal issue to deal with:

    During the summer after his first semester at Lincoln, Johnson was charged with a misdemeanor after giving police a false first name after he was arrested on suspicion of theft. He later pleaded guilty.

    He was accused of stealing a package containing a backpack belonging to someone else from an apartment complex. When he was arrested in that case, he identified himself as Derrick Johnson and said he was 16.

    An officer found a student ID card in his sock identifying him as Dorian Johnson. Johnson told him he was carrying a friend's ID, but two Lincoln University Police Officers recognized him as Dorian Johnson. He pleaded guilty in circuit court to a misdemeanor charge of filing a false report.

    He is wanted for failing to appear in Jefferson City municipal court to answer to the theft charge, court officials said

    Not big deals, of course, but any time you're on the record as lying, it can certainly be used to call every other thing you say into question.

    Parent

    He sure had motivation to run (5.00 / 3) (#76)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:51:50 PM EST
    away from Officer Wilson. Outstanding warrants.

    Parent
    Regardless (none / 0) (#70)
    by vicndabx on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:29:17 PM EST
    Jeralyn has previously advised, only the actual alleged prep can be charged with a crime. There is no accomplice here. Johnson was under no obligation to intervene to stop or report.

    Parent
    an interview with a traumatized kid (none / 0) (#37)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:43:14 PM EST
    who is quite aware that a cop just shot his friend.

    If these cops behave this way to civilians with America watching...what was Dorian's police interview like?

    Parent

    If the distance was 6-7 feet (none / 0) (#36)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:37:54 PM EST
    then it would appear that Wilson moved farther away from his car to shoot or after the shooting drove his car away from dying Michael.

    Parent
    IF they were that close (none / 0) (#42)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:53:38 PM EST
    my hunch would be the former.

    It sounds like he was in pursuit for at least a short while/distance, and there is also the possibility that Brown came back toward him, at least for a short while/distance.

    Wilson's a cop, he would know not to move the car - or anything - after the incident.

    (And, in case someone thinks it, no, I don't think he quickly calculated the incident and cannily concocted some master plan/lie and then backed his rig up such it would benefit his (lying) version of events.)

    Parent

    he's a cop but (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:01:44 PM EST
    he didn't report the event. Two hours later someone else did. Not that the blue grape vine hadn't heard. In fact, we don't know who moved the car or how or when Wilson finally left the scene. Or where he went. Michael's body left the scene in a FPD SUV 4 hours after the shooting.

    Parent
    What is your source for your asserion (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:28:27 PM EST
    Wilson did not report "the event," by which I assume you mean the officer-involved shooting?

    Parent
    My hunch is that he did not move his SUV. (none / 0) (#48)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:05:38 PM EST
    At least not until after it was released, or whatever, by the FPD.

    Parent
    In fact, we don't know who moved the car or how (none / 0) (#96)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 07:55:15 AM EST
    Why are they moving his SUV at all -- it's a crime scene.

     Supposedly a gun went off in there -- so why was it not processed right then and there???

     The very act of moving it alters the credibility of evidence found therein and the crime scene itself.

    There is that now famous cellphone video with the yellow tape up showing an SUV parked diagonally across the road to the right with its lights on and the body facing away from it in the opposite direction about 35 feet away.

    Is that it or has the SUV already been moved by  that time which appears to have been a mere minutes after the shooting???

    Parent

    What is your source for your assertion (none / 0) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:42:04 AM EST
    that the SUV was moved?

    Parent
    What is your source ... that the SUV was moved? (none / 0) (#100)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:21:47 AM EST
    My eyes as I look at the infamous cellphone video of the scene after the shooting when the yellow tape is still up.

    As the video scans to the right there is a police SUV with its lights blinking and parked diagonally across the street about 35 feet from the body.  

    Is that his SUV or not???

    If that's not his SUV then where is his???

     If it is his SUV then why is it parked in that position???

    Parent

    Video of Scene [Language not PG rated] (none / 0) (#106)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:37:03 AM EST
    No offense, but you can often find the answer to your own questions if you try.

    Anyway, it took me about 10 seconds to find this video.

    At 2:45 Dorian Johnson describes the incident and says Wilson backed his SUV up

    in a manner to where it almost hit us and blocked both lanes the way he turned his car.

    That would seem to answer your question, no?

    Parent

    That would seem to answer your question, no? (none / 0) (#116)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:52:22 PM EST
    At 2:45 Dorian Johnson describes the incident and says Wilson backed his SUV up in a manner to where it almost hit us and blocked both lanes the way he turned his car.

    Yes -- that would seem to be the officer's SUV to the right of the body based on that description.

    A few observations:

    If that is his SUV it appears to be an angry parking job for a mere jaywalking incident???

    It also appears that to get where he is Brown would have had to run in one direction to get around the SUV and then double back to go in the almost opposite direction -- thus the one comment in the video.

    And the body fell in the direction away from the officer and the SUV --

    Parent

    So many qustions. (none / 0) (#130)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:38:14 PM EST
    The eyewitness in the video can be heard explaining what he saw. Afaik, everything he said jibes with what the video showed.

    Parent
    Dispatch (none / 0) (#133)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:48:31 PM EST
    What is also noteworthy in the video link you posted is that the Police Department heard of the shooting from the News -- not from an officer calling it in.

    I almost choked when I heard that.

    Parent

    Let's wait for the 911 and Fergudon PD (5.00 / 1) (#134)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:50:32 PM EST
    communications tapes and logs.

    Parent
    FOI request (none / 0) (#166)
    by Palli on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 05:37:13 PM EST
    The Dispatch log has been FOI requested by at least one party. see muckrock.com records below
    ___________________
    From Runa A. Sandvik on Aug. 19, 2014:
    To Whom It May Concern:

    Pursuant to the Missouri Sunshine Law and the Missouri Public Records Law, I hereby request the following records:

    Computer-aided-dispatch (CAD) logs for the St. Louis County Police Department, for August 9, 2014, from 11am until midnight.

    I also request that, if appropriate, fees be waived as I believe this request is in the public interest. The requested documents will be made available to the general public free of charge as part of the public information service at MuckRock.com, processed by a representative of the news media/press and is made in the process of news gathering and not for commercial usage.

    In the event that fees cannot be waived, I would be grateful if you would inform me of the total charges in advance of fulfilling my request. I would prefer the request filled electronically, by e-mail attachment if available or CD-ROM if not.

    Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation in this matter. I look forward to receiving your response to this request within 3 business days, as the statute requires.

    Sincerely,

    Runa A. Sandvik

    ___________________
    From Burk, Jeff to Runa A. Sandvik on Aug. 20, 2014:
    Due to the massive amount of records requests, and the department's other responsibilities in the current state of emergency declared by Governor Nixon, requests for records may take up to 10 business days to process. Please do not call or email to check the status of your request until 14 business days after your request was submitted.

    LIEUTENANT JEFF BURK, Commander
    Central Police Records
    St. Louis County Police Department
    7900 Forsyth Blvd., Clayton, MO 63105
    PH (314) 615-0381

    ___________________
    From Burk, Jeff to Runa A. Sandvik on Aug. 21, 2014:
    This request will cost $6.50. Please make a check payable to St. Louis County and include this email with your payment.

    Due to the massive amount of records requests, and the department's other responsibilities in the current state of emergency declared by Governor Nixon, requests for records may take up to 10 business days to process. Please do not call or email to check the status of your request until 14 business days after your request was submitted.

    LIEUTENANT JEFF BURK, Commander
    Central Police Records
    St. Louis County Police Department
    7900 Forsyth Blvd., Clayton, MO 63105
    PH (314) 615-0381

    ___________________
    MuckRock is a participatory news tool that allows anyone to easily file, track, and share their public records requests with an easy, intuitive letter generator and automated follow up tools.

    Parent

    Did Ferguson police officer fail to call in shooti (none / 0) (#184)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 04:26:48 AM EST
    Article on how strong case against Wilson may be (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:54:45 AM EST
    on crooksandliars.com this morning.

    Pema Levy wrote that article (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by SuzieTampa on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:43:47 PM EST
    for Newsweek and C&L reprinted it. I just want to give proper credit.

    Parent
    Thanks, she deserves some credit. The reprinter (none / 0) (#103)
    by fairleft on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:29:41 AM EST
    had the author's name as "anonymous," which is pretty strange.

    Parent
    Very interesting article. (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:11:36 PM EST
    That article seems to have been written (none / 0) (#45)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:02:17 PM EST
    before we learned that the officer suffered a fractured eye socket.  The description of the physical interaction between the two as just a "tussle" seems a gross understatement.

    Parent
    I saw that Fox News reported .... (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:21:43 PM EST
    Gateway Pundit's "exclusive" which the County did not confirm or deny except to say that GP was full of beans that his source was from the County prosecutor's office.

    In other words, Fox News is making it true by repeating a lie often enough. It's a real insight as to how the RW noise machine gets totally unsubstantiated BS into the mainstream to influence the public perception.

    Reading the thousands of racist comments to that story is very instructive as to how un-dead racism is in this country too.

    Parent

    ** source NOT from County prosecutor. (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:22:38 PM EST
    I wish there was an edit button.

    Parent
    Forget fox (none / 0) (#112)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:15:48 PM EST
    before we learned that the officer suffered a frac (none / 0) (#104)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:52:51 AM EST
    How do we know that he suffered any injuries.

    Videos of him on the scene don't show any noticeable injuries.

     Furthermore he is not touching his face as if to check for blood and no one is looking at his face as if it needs attention.

    When asked on the day afterwards if the officer was injured, the PC said NO COMMENT.

    What??? Wouldn't that be the perfect time to say YES -- he was injured.

    Instead we have an evolution of injuries from NO COMMENT to swelling on the side of his face to the now orbital bone fracture ....

    I trust that they took DNA from the injury site when it was first treated to prove that whatever happened there came from Brown.

    Parent

    keep in mind (none / 0) (#111)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:04:05 PM EST

    that adrenalin suppresses pain.  Wilson's adrenalin was probably through the roof.

    Parent
    Keep In Mind (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:23:20 PM EST
    That someone suffering from a serious orbital fracture cannot shoot someone and hit them from 30-35 feet away.

    Hard to have it both ways.... except if you are police.

    Parent

    When I shattered my eye socket... (5.00 / 2) (#117)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:05:23 PM EST
    that sh&t was swelled shut before I hit the ground...and the pain was blinding.

    A run of the mill shiner can be masked by adrenaline...not an orbital fracture imo...especially by a wimp who can't take an (alleged) punch without reaching for the coward's weapon of choice.

    Parent

    Depends (none / 0) (#120)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:17:15 PM EST
     
    Depends on how bad the fracture is.  

    Frankly the company of a firearm to confront a 6' 4" 290 plus pounder that is aggressive enough to assault an armed police officer is better described as prudence than cowardice.

     

    Parent

    F*ck your firearms... (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:34:23 PM EST
    if prudence is what you seek, retreat is the best play...if ya can't outrun a 290 pounder that isn't in the NFL and call for back-up, you're in no shape to be a cop.  

    Assuming the cop got punched at all...right now that is pure speculation.

    Parent

    "f ya can't outrun a 290 pounder" (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:41:24 PM EST
    if ya can't outrun a 290 pounder that isn't in the NFL
    Ha! I thought the exact same thing. I've never heard of a cop retreating like that from a suspect, not that I've researched at all.

    Parent
    Me either... (none / 0) (#136)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:55:46 PM EST
    but I think we should look into adding it to the manual...like how some departments forbid high speed chases in all but the most extreme circumstances.  It's just safer.

    Retreat, call for back-up, and apprehend later.  No shame in that.

    Parent

    First of all, we still do not know (5.00 / 3) (#139)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:11:05 PM EST
    a whole lot about what was going down inside the vehicle.  Accounts differ as to who initiated the alleged confrontation at the door of the police vehicle.  There are accounts that the officer slams open the vehicle door, it hits Brown, who pushes back.  Then, it is alleged, Wilson reached through the window to grab Brown and pull him in; does that strike anyone as an extraordinarily stupid thing for the cop to do, not knowing whether Brown was armed?

    Wilson is reported to be 6' 6" - taller than Brown - and there was no question he was armed.  If a large cop slams you with a door, then grabs you and pulls your head in through the window opening, are you afraid?  And if the officer has one hand on his weapon, aren't you worried he's going to shoot?  Would you just let that play out, or would instinct kick in and have you doing something - anything - to keep that from happening?

    A shot is allegedly fired.  Has anyone recounted that Brown stuck around from that point, continuing to engage with the cop?  No, I don't think so - this is the point where Brown puts on the afterburners and starts running - maybe he's afraid there are more shots to come.

    So why is the cop so anxious to continue the confrontation, to keep firing his weapon, now that Brown is getting farther away from him?  Does he think that if he doesn't apprehend him, somehow this hulk of a person is going to disappear, never to be seen again?

    What is the cop saying at this point? Is he ordering Brown to stop?  If, when Brown turns around, is the cop saying anything at all?  Is he yelling at Brown to put his hands on his head and lie down on the ground?

    The right-wing rags are all now reporting that Wilson was "severely beaten" by Brown; funny, he doesn't act like someone who's been severely beaten.  Seems in pretty good shape right after, as he's standing over Brown's body.  No one really even mentions it - even Wilson's alleged friend who texts him in the days after doesn't ask, "hey, how's your eye?  What'd the doctors say," nothing.  Where are the photos taken at the hospital - can you think of a reason why photographic evidence of a "severe beating" wouldn't be released?

    I can, and I'm pretty sure it isn't the same reason you'd come up with.

    Take a look at this; it may be helpful.

    Parent

    This (none / 0) (#141)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:26:22 PM EST
    And if the officer has one hand on his weapon, aren't you worried he's going to shoot?  Would you just let that play out, or would instinct kick in and have you doing something - anything - to keep that from happening?

    assumes that an 18 year old that has a clear head and is thinking rationally at the time, no?  How many times of people around here argued that teenagers' brains aren't fully developed?  Take a large 18 year old, full of testosterone and andrenalin (and possibly marijuana which, as we all know, can impede judgment), and I can very easily see macho bravado taking over common sense.

    Parent

    I can certainly very easily see (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Angel on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:33:09 PM EST
    macho bravado taking over common sense
    in the officer's actions as well.  


    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#145)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:34:37 PM EST
    They aren't mutually exclusive - even though you'd like them to be.

    Parent
    Just showing YOU that it goes both ways. (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Angel on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:36:25 PM EST
    What was Wilson's excuse for (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by Anne on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:43:55 PM EST
    over-reacting to 2 guys walking in the road?  He's well over the age of 18, and he's supposed to be trained to serve the community in ways that do not take innocuous situations and escalate them to the point where someone gets killed.

    Just because brain development is not complete at the age of 18 does not mean that 18-year olds cannot act rationally; let's try to remember that Brown was the object of the cop's [testosterone-fueled? steroid-induced? I'm-the-one-with-the-gun-and-you-WILL-obey-me?) disproportionately confrontational approach, not the other way around.  As much attention as has been placed on whether Brown was "on something," or that he had pot in his system, why doesn't anyone wonder if Officer Wilson was "on something?"

    I've seen nothing but "macho bravado" from the Ferguson cops - it seems to be a fairly routine response for them - so I'm sure Wilson doesn't think he was doing anything wrong.

    Parent

    One Sided Imagination (none / 0) (#143)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:29:59 PM EST
    Consistent.

    Don't strain yourself.

    Parent

    As are you (5.00 / 0) (#146)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:35:19 PM EST
    One-sides with blinders.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#170)
    by sj on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:30:33 PM EST
    This (none / 0) (#141)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:26:22 PM MDT

    And if the officer has one hand on his weapon, aren't you worried he's going to shoot?  Would you just let that play out, or would instinct kick in and have you doing something - anything - to keep that from happening?

     assumes that an 18 year old that has a clear head and is thinking rationally at the time, no?

    And no again. This assumes that an 18 year old is panicking and purely reacting. Note the use of the word "instinct" which is completely unrelated to rational thought.


    Parent
    Where are the photos taken at the hospital (none / 0) (#150)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:51:53 PM EST
    I think you nailed it --

    Parent
    eye socket fracture (none / 0) (#152)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 03:26:08 PM EST
    CNN is reporting that a source tells them that Officer Darren Wilson did not have a broken eye socket after his altercation with Michael Brown.

     Don Lemon reports that Wilson did go to the hospital with a swollen face, but x-rays came back negative on a broken or torn eye socket.

    http://therightscoop.com/cnn-reports-officer-wilson-did-not-have-a-broken-eye-socket-after-altercati on-with-michael-brown/#ixzz3B3mvq7vD

    Parent

    Too late, the meme is already out there. (none / 0) (#153)
    by Angel on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 03:28:46 PM EST
    "The officer was half beaten to death!!!  He almost lost his eye!!! That thug almost killed him!!!

    Parent
    Quick linking lesson (none / 0) (#155)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 03:44:03 PM EST
    The kind if link you did messes up the site and will get deleted.

    See the little link icon just above the comment box?

    Go to the page you want to link to and copy the URL.   Then, click that little icon.  A box will pop up.  Replace the short bit of text in that box with the URL and hit return.  That will place a line of gobbledygook in the comment box ending with this

    >< forward slash a >

    You put some text (LINK will do) in between ><. Those
    And it will appear blue and be a live link.
    You can test this with the preview button before posting.

    It might take a few trys

    Parent

    link (none / 0) (#156)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 04:06:48 PM EST
    Sorry about that

    I will have to go back to the drawing board --

    Parent

    No worries (none / 0) (#158)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 04:27:40 PM EST
    We all had to learn it.  It especially svcks on a ipad

    Parent
    One other tip (none / 0) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 04:30:07 PM EST
    It sometimes helps when testing the link in preview to do "open link in new window"
    That way you don't have to hit "back"

    Parent
    SUV (none / 0) (#160)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 04:52:52 PM EST
    BTW going back to the original question as to whether Wilson's SUV was the one to the right in that video, the 4th witness today on CNN said that Brown fell toward Wilson which would make sense.

    That means that his SUV would not be to the right but to the left, in the direction that he fell, and it is missing in the video.

    Parent

    One mans prudence (none / 0) (#121)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:20:22 PM EST
    Is another's expedience

    Parent
    Fracture? (none / 0) (#122)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:25:54 PM EST
    Looks like your fracture was a hoax, to put it politely.

    Oh well, chalk up another one from the wingnut echo chamber.

    Parent

    The NYT (none / 0) (#125)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:30:30 PM EST

    The NYT spreading a hoax!  

    Parent
    Got a Link? (none / 0) (#129)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:35:07 PM EST
    A friend says: (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:39:02 PM EST
    Washington Post

    Need to see the medical record and have the treating physician under oath.

    Parent

    ABC News as well (none / 0) (#135)
    by jbindc on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:51:40 PM EST
    A Friend Of Wilson Said..... (none / 0) (#140)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:24:04 PM EST
    Nothing confirmed as of yet.

    We'll see.

    Parent

    medical record (none / 0) (#157)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 04:11:53 PM EST
    Need to see the medical record and have the treating physician under oath.

    Really???

    Jim Hoft didn't need any medical record or physician under oath before he started singing this song nor did all those who joined the chorus without one as well.

    Parent

    And who is Jim Hoff? (none / 0) (#161)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 05:00:00 PM EST
    Gateway Pundit (none / 0) (#162)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 05:02:53 PM EST
    And retired MLB manager. Cincinnati. (none / 0) (#163)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 05:09:34 PM EST
    It's been referenced (none / 0) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 05:15:51 PM EST
    About 2 dozen times in recent threads.

    Parent
    Thank you. (none / 0) (#165)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 05:30:26 PM EST
    So one unnamed source... (none / 0) (#154)
    by unitron on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 03:33:50 PM EST
    ...disagrees with another unnamed source?

    Parent
    you need only one eye to shoot effectively (none / 0) (#118)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:09:32 PM EST

    I shoot one eyed all the time.  Thirty-five feet is not a very long pistol shot.

    Parent
    It's pretty hard to be a threat (none / 0) (#119)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:13:20 PM EST
    From 35 feet away.  Especially after taking 4 or 5 shots.

    Parent
    Two seconds (none / 0) (#124)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:29:10 PM EST

    35 feet is about two seconds away.

    Parent
    OK (none / 0) (#127)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:31:50 PM EST
    Guess you are not done spreading false reports.

    Got a source other than the discredited one?


    Parent

    Many/most people close one eye (none / 0) (#148)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:38:46 PM EST
    when they shoot. Apparently Wilson was hurt in his left eye, presumably he's right-handed and/or right-eyed and thus would naturally close his left eye while firing.

    Parent
    are worse than others.

    Still, after that practice, [Raiders running back Darren] McFadden walked by reporters from the field house to the hotel and while he appeared woozy, there was no visible swelling or discoloration around either eye.

    According to MedicalDisabilitiesGuidelines.com, "an individual may return to heavy work 3 weeks after the injury if surgery is not required. If there has been surgical repair, heavy work is usually contraindicated until at least 3 weeks after surgery.

    In some cases, numbness of the cheek can persist after surgery.

    "Jackson referred to it as "a little small fracture of his orbit. So he'll be out a couple weeks."

    Our client was sitting at a light in Richmond Virginia when she was struck, head on, by an elderly driver who failed to control her car as she turned into our clients road.

    She did not seek treatment immediately as she had to pick up her child at day care. She saw her doctor the next day, complaining of head pain and dizziness.



    Parent
    quote:
    It was later determined that she had an orbital fracture which required surgery.


    Parent
    fractures on X-rays (none / 0) (#179)
    by SuzieTampa on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 08:28:02 PM EST
    Six weeks ago, I fell, hitting my shoulder on the way down. I was told that the X-ray showed no broken bones, and so, the doc assumed I had injured my rotator cuff because my arm was weak and hurt like hell. I then went to an orthopedist. Yesterday, he got the results of an MRI and told me the good news: My rotator cuff is OK, but I have a tiny fracture of my greater tuberosity.

    Of course, we still need a legitimate medical report on Wilson, but people shouldn't assume that X-rays identify all fractures.

    And Greater Tuberosity should be the name of a band.

    Parent

    Consider the source of that info (none / 0) (#167)
    by Palli on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:01:55 PM EST
    local rightwing noise machine Gatewaypundit.com  Here's the published source http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fr acture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/

    Just as absurdly dishonest as the earwitness "Josie", ananonymous, alleged friend of Darren Wilson's girlfriend, who appeared on Carol Costello's segment of CNN Newsroom today.
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/21/1323473/-Michael-Brown-killing-CNN-presents-anonymous-sourc e-with-a-secondhand-story-as-an-eyewitness

    Parent

    Palli (none / 0) (#168)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:04:43 PM EST
    Those links will be deleted they mess up the site.  See the comments to Uncle Rick about proper linking upthread.

    Peace out.

    Parent

    sorry, Capt (none / 0) (#171)
    by Palli on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:34:09 PM EST
    OK, after your instruction is this better?

    Original eye injury "scoop":

    Earwitness story by friend of Wilson's girlfriend appeared on CNN Newsroom hosted by Carol Castello today:



    Parent

    Ha close no cigar (none / 0) (#172)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:41:44 PM EST
    Try using the preview button below the window.  That will give you a preview comment where you can check to see if the link is blue and you can even test the link.
    I recommend using "open link in new window" option so you don't have to do a "back"

    And no apologies to me.  J will delete the offending links (there have been several today) because they screw up the site.

    There is also instructions that might be better that mine on the site someplace.  I will look for them.

    Parent

    Could only find this (none / 0) (#174)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:48:31 PM EST
    URL's within the body of the comment must be in html format or they will be deleted as they skew the site. Use the link button at the top of the comment box to paste in the url. You can also find a shorter link via tinyurl.com and post that.

    Will see if there is more help

    Parent

    Sources (none / 0) (#175)
    by Palli on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:49:58 PM EST
    Original eye injury "scoop":

    Earwitness story by friend of Wilson's girlfriend appeared on CNN Newsroom hosted by Carol Castello today:

    Thanks, if it works
    Regrets, if it doesn't  Thanks again Capt

    Parent

    It takes a while (none / 0) (#176)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:52:03 PM EST
    You can also use tinyurl dot com.

    That makes a short link that works ok.

    Parent

    Try this, an easy way. (none / 0) (#177)
    by Angel on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 07:06:25 PM EST
    Type whatever you want here then use the bracket [ before a word or phrase, paste the url after your word then close with bracket ].  Preview your post, open link in new window, if okay then hit Post.

    Example:  I'm linking to an article about Rick Perry.

    Parent

    There's more help in the open thread (none / 0) (#178)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 07:43:46 PM EST
    Article (none / 0) (#50)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:11:08 PM EST
    Thanks -- it's a good summation of where the investigation stands and what the issues are.

    Re: the point that the struggle for the gun being more important than the charging of the officer.

    A struggle [if it occurred] that the victim broke off from and was running from.

    After the autopsy presentation the other day and the revelation of no GSR on the body, the alleged struggle for the gun and its firing in the front seat while both were in there becomes questionable.

     If one is in an enclosed area like the front seat of a vehicle and a gun is fired there should be GSR on the exposed skin of the hands, arms, probably even the face and neck.

    But per Dr Baden there was no GSR anywhere on the body.

    Parent

    Not if gun was still holstered (none / 0) (#54)
    by Raoul on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:03:56 PM EST
    Residue shoots from the gun barrel (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:09:42 PM EST
    like Windex from the spray bottle, if it's not pointed at you it does not get on you.

    Parent
    I don't think that's correct. (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Anne on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:26:47 PM EST
    See here:

    The firing pin of a gun hits the back of the cartridge, activating the shock-sensitive primer, which ignites the gunpowder, forcing the bullet down the barrel of the gun and on its path. The heat and pressure within the cartridge vaporize the metals from the primer. Vapors escape from any area of the weapon not gas tight, like the breach area and muzzle. The heat of this explosive reaction and subsequent cooling results in the condensation and formation of tiny metal-containing particles. These particles fall on anything in the vicinity of the fired weapon, including the hands of the shooter, and typically measure 1 to 10 microns (10-6 m) in size (for comparison, a typical human hair is approximately 100 microns in diameter). Finding and viewing primer GSR particles require a high-powered microscope, such as an SEM.


    Parent
    Thanks, good find. I was thinking more (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:40:57 PM EST
    along the lines of "stippling"
    Stippling (tattooing): Unburned powder and debris, causing punctate abrasions on target. Larger and heavier so travels farther. Does not wipe off.

    I did not realize GSR was so "floaty" but I guess it is.

    Parent

    Generally. (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:22:56 PM EST
    where it was embalmed and, presumably, per standard practice, it was cleaned with disinfectants and germicidal solutions.

    Parent
    Mortuary (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:39:01 PM EST
    And the body had already been to the  mortuary where it was embalmed and, presumably, per standard practice, it was cleaned with disinfectants and germicidal solutions.

    Was that stated in the autopsy report???

    They knew for a week that this private second autopsy was going to be done and no ME worth his salt would allow the body to be washed and embalmed before he examines it.

    And there was going to be a federal autopsy as well.

    The mortuary would never have done anything to the body that would have washed away evidence in this case.

    So when the Dr says that there was no GSR on the body, he means that there was No GSR on the prewashed body -- otherwise he would have said it differently.

    Parent

    Not so sure about that. (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:48:18 PM EST
    Baden did a "preliminary autopsy" at the funeral home, not at a lab. I'm starting to wonder if the reality is Baden basically simply looked at the body and the wounds.

    Does anyone have a link to Baden's actual report? All I can find is the wound diagram.

    Parent

    Well, I googled several Baden interviews (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 06:10:35 PM EST
    including the main press interview he did.

    He says in all that he was asked by the Brown family to determine the cause of death, including how many shots, where they hit, did he suffer, etc.

    Baden talked about the ME doing lots of lab work, but he did not talk about himself doing any.

    He did say there was no gunpowder residue on the body, but also that the clothing might have shielded the body from the residue.

    My speculation is that he looked visually for signs of "stippling" which is high velocity GSR ejected from the end of the barrel which causes obvious impact marks on skin and clothing if the gun is close enough.

    Continued speculation, I don't think he brought a high-powered microscope into the funeral home and took samples from all over Brown's exposed skin to look for the minute GSR "floaty" particles that would be hidden among all the millions of other minute particles of dust, pollen, lint, etc., that would be all over Brown's skin.

    Parent

    Cut Corners (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 06:19:09 PM EST
    Continued speculation, I don't think he brought a high-powered microscope into the funeral home and took samples from all over Brown's exposed skin to look for the minute GSR "floaty" particles that would be hidden among all the millions of other minute particles of dust, pollen, lint, etc., that would be all over Brown's skin.

    Do you think Baden cut corners?

    That would surprise me considering the national coverage.

    I would think he did everything top notch, no?

    Parent

    He did what the victim's family asked him to do. (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 06:38:05 PM EST
    But not in the setting normal for performing an autopsy. Also, of course, Brown's corpse was the subject of the initial autopsy performed by the county.

    Parent
    If what I speculate on above is correct, (none / 0) (#86)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 06:50:31 PM EST
    I do not think he "cut corners," I think he did what the family asked him to do, ie, determine the number of shots, locations, pain and suffering, etc.

    Now he may have done a full-on microscopic analysis of Brown's skin, but imo that would have taken many, many hours. Even ME's, from what I gather, only take various samples and then send the samples out to specialty labs to actually get analyzed.

    I may be wrong but as of now I think Baden did a visual inspection of the body to determine the physical cause of death, and that's about it.

    Parent

    Baden stated (none / 0) (#79)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:36:06 PM EST
    while he found no GSR on the body he did not have access to Brown's clothes and a complete examination would include a GSR test on Brown's clothes.

    I have not seen any definitive answer to the question of what happened to Brown's body in terms of cleaning, makeup, or other normal processes that a funeral parlor does.

    I have been trying to find an answer to that question and have not found one.  Anyone here have a link.

    Parent

    If a gun was shot while still in holster (none / 0) (#169)
    by Palli on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:15:49 PM EST
    there should be residue on the officer too,
    on his pants if ankle holster or shirt if shoulder.

    But police procedures in Ferguson being what they seem...

    Parent

    Lol.... (5.00 / 2) (#63)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:44:57 PM EST
    "He's awesome and he smells good." - nearby resident Angela Whitman on Eric Holder #Ferguson

        -- Ryan J. Reilly (@ryanjreilly) August 20, 2014

    Some one will eat crow on this one (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:48:15 PM EST
    Fox is reporting this now

    link

    At some point this will be confirmed or not by other sources and then the crow eating will begin.

    Why exactly (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:32:53 PM EST
    Would "crow be eaten" based on the fact of his being injured or not?  Is your point that if he was injured he had the right to kill Brown?

    Parent
    I'd like to see a photo of the injury (5.00 / 2) (#89)
    by nycstray on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:44:01 PM EST
    taken at the hospital and time stamped. Along with other documents about the shooting.

    Parent
    Wouldn't we all! (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:47:49 PM EST
    I want.... (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by magster on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:24:46 AM EST
    Jim Hoft (none / 0) (#137)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:03:20 PM EST
    Stunning article:

    http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/gateway-pundit-jim-hoft-spins-tall-tales

    And yet this lie he told here is repeated all across the media as if it were true.

    Parent

    Ferguson Police Department Sued Over (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by Angel on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:02:02 AM EST
    Post Racial Society HHAHAHAHAHAAH (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:29:09 AM EST
    Who's to blame in the confrontation that led to Brown's death has yet to be sorted out. But the ArchCity Defenders report is the clearest evidence to date that Ferguson's justice system was discriminatory in practice, if not intent, long before the police force's heavy-handed response to the riots that followed the fatal shooting.

    Many Americans, especially whites, comfort themselves that the U.S. has become a post-racial society. Not Ferguson, which is 67.4 percent black, 29.3 percent white, and only 3.3 percent everything else. The variegated national reaction to the events in the St. Louis suburb also gives the lie to the post-racial myth. Eighty percent of blacks surveyed nationwide by the Pew Research Center said the Brown shooting "raises important issues about race that need to be discussed." Only 44 percent of whites felt that way. Twice as many blacks as whites told Pew the police reaction to the protests "has gone too far."

    Link

    Parent

    This is an excellent article (none / 0) (#110)
    by vicndabx on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:01:14 PM EST
    Made all the more salient coming from Bloomberg's website.

    It would be so much better if stiff like this was reported instead of ad nauseam speculation by pundits.

    Might even help to counter the simplistic thinking that leads one to believe voting is the be all and end all and stop claiming the residents of these towns are "complaining."

    Parent

    Has the Pentagon (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by oculus on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 04:24:41 PM EST
    militarized local law enforcement?  Read what an anonymus Pentagon official has to say:

    CSM

    Pretty funny and not (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 24, 2014 at 12:27:39 PM EST
    I know watching the footage really freaked my husband out.  In Iraq or Afghanistan you never point a weapon at anyone unarmed.  You only point the weapon to shoot it, which means someone is shooting at you FIRST.

    U.S. Military isn't allowed to use tear gas either.  It is classified a chemical weapon.

    Under Petraeus and McChrystal they were supposed to win hearts and minds.  They were supposed to meet with angry citizens, meet their needs, deescalate riots.  And then all this military crap comes home, gets a new paint job, and police officers act like America needs to be pounded to dust like Fallujah under insane Dubya Bush.

    The nation spent so much money on this $hit they can't bring themselves to melt it down or send it to the crusher where it belongs.

    Parent

    Incident Report (none / 0) (#4)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:07:58 AM EST
    Since this is now going to the Grand Jury today does that mean that there will be no incident report released to the public from the Ferguson Police Department as should have been done by this time -- only more anonymous unverifiable leaks???

    very important question (none / 0) (#35)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:31:09 PM EST
    I keep hearing "eyewitness reports are unreliable".
    Wilson is an eyewitness but his account (a required incident report) will not be known for months? There has been  reporting of how deliberately lax this department is generally documenting their actions. For example, only 2 years ago did the department even start (and then only selectively) completing Use of Deadly Force reports.  Contrary to normal law enforcement practice, public complaints or departmental admonishments about individual (un)professional conduct are not filed in the specific officers' file and are difficult to obtain.

    Many FOIA requests have been filed about the event and the continuing aftermath, as well, as FPD & ST Louis CO law enforcement procedures. How many months before these will even be acknowledged?

    Parent

    I thought you might find this interesting: (none / 0) (#181)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:37:11 PM EST
    Replying to Donald (none / 0) (#5)
    by SuzieTampa on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:15:37 AM EST
    In the previous thread, now closed, Vic talked about oppressed people rioting and looting. I responded: "In general, young men (including older teens) do the great majority of rioting and looting." Donald asked rhetorically: "And exactly how many riots and lootings have you attended?"

    I helped cover riots in Tampa when I worked for its newspaper. (My first years there I covered housing issues, including public housing.) I was close to one of the New Orleans crime reporters who stayed in the city during Katrina as well as others who came back after the hurricane had passed to cover the aftermath.  

    If you look at the photos out of StL, you'll see mostly young men committing violence (as opposed to the peaceful protesters).

    Young Man Blues... (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:38:43 AM EST
    A BBC reporter that was covering (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:13:47 AM EST
    the area near Ferguson where the man with the knife got shot yesterday reported that he had talked to young men who were fully intending to commit violence last night, because, he said they said, it is the only way to get attention. Would the press be down there to cover the peaceful protests alone?

    None of them were interviewed on camera, so it is hard to judge their real motivations - bring attention to the cause, or just cause mayhem? But it does seem the violence is tactical, not just some outpouring of emotion.

    Parent

    Hard to argue with them... (5.00 / 4) (#26)
    by kdog on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:02:55 AM EST
    the language of the police, the language of the state, is violence.  I'm afraid it's the only language they hear and understand...and no one understands this better than those subjected to the most state violence.  

    Parent
    I was thinking the same thing in general (5.00 / 5) (#57)
    by ruffian on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:25:48 PM EST
    yesterday...this whole society is so hair trigger violent - the police and many citizens alike. So many guns, so of course the police are on edge. They over-react (and it seems to me even the lawful police use of deadly force is an over-reaction - the threshold is way too low IMO), and the citizens are justifiably enraged.

    Give peace a chance indeed.

    Parent

    Perry Grand Jury Timeline (none / 0) (#11)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:59:22 AM EST
    15 July 2013 a judge is appointed

    14 April 2014 grand jury seated

    15 August 2014 grand jury indites Perry

    Have to wonder how long the Wilson grand jury will take.

    Also have to wonder about the question I asked in the previous thread about how long the grand jury process normally takes.

    Can't recall the link but there was something about VC about grand jury seating favoring a certain type of juror which often included LEOs or former LEOs.  Was not expecting that, anyone know what the composition of this grand jury is.

    There's a general open thread... (none / 0) (#13)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:06:45 AM EST
    to discuss non-Ferguson stuff just posted by J.

    Parent
    Nevermind, I didn't read whole comment... (none / 0) (#15)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:07:41 AM EST
    Comparing the Wilson grand jury (none / 0) (#17)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:14:29 AM EST
    to other grand juries, especially in terms of how quickly it will start taking testimony seems on topic for this thread.  Especially since J specifically mentioned the Wilson grand jury would start taking testimony today.

    While you may not be happy that the Wilson grand jury seems to be subject to heavy political pressure with the govt officials demanding 'vigorous prosecution' of Wilson creating possible grounds for an appeal if Wilson is charged or found guilty the fact is this grand jury is a text book example of how not to do things.

    I will wait Js decision, but think this is a legit subject.

    Parent

    You didn't see my nevermind... (none / 0) (#19)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:23:36 AM EST
    Gov. Nixon is all shades of incompetent on this matter, including "vigorous prosecution". I agree with you there.

    Parent
    No problem (none / 0) (#22)
    by ragebot on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:31:47 AM EST
    I once made a mistake myself, I said no one is perfect.

    Parent
    I might be wrong about GJ's.... (none / 0) (#24)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:38:37 AM EST
    but my understanding is that a Grand Jury panel is on the hook for a set period of time to be used by a prosecutor for whatever purpose, (investigative v. rubber stamp). I remember during Plame-gate, there was an urgency to get a vote on Rove before the GJ's term expired.  

    Missouri and Texas may have a whole different arrangement than what the federal courts have.

    Parent

    As I recall, the county prosecutor said yesterday (none / 0) (#29)
    by oculus on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 11:07:33 AM EST
    The term would be extended if necessary.

    Parent
    From CNN (none / 0) (#58)
    by jbindc on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:26:41 PM EST
    St. Louis County Prosecutor Robert McCulloch said he plans to begin presenting the case to the grand jury on Wednesday, but he told CNN affiliate KMOV that he expects it will be at least mid-October before all the evidence is before the panel.

    LINK

    Parent

    Comparing the Wilson Grand Jury... (none / 0) (#34)
    by unitron on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:26:43 PM EST
    ...to Grand Juries in other states may get a little orange mixed in with the apple.

    Parent
    When actually (none / 0) (#39)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:46:22 PM EST
    unemployed black men are quite available to be selected for long tern Grand Jury jurors.

    Parent
    But are they on the voter rolls? (none / 0) (#40)
    by Angel on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:47:32 PM EST
    Isn't that a requirement?  

    Parent
    IIRC, the jury pool (none / 0) (#41)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:51:08 PM EST
    in most states is no longer restricted to the voter rolls.
    But this is Missouri...

    Parent
    Can I volunteer for Jury Duty? (none / 0) (#46)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:02:32 PM EST
    Can I volunteer for Jury Duty?
    No, state statue requires that the Jurors are selected by a random draw.

    Do you have to be a Registered Voter to be on Jury Duty?
    No, in St. Charles County we use Missouri State ID's, Missouri Drivers License, and Voters Registration lists.



    Parent
    Question for sarcastic (none / 0) (#49)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:08:02 PM EST
    Is there documentation from what source each accepted juror is selected?

    Parent
    Not sure I understand the question, (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:14:00 PM EST
    but also I don't know any more than what the link says.

    Parent
    McCullough Presser (none / 0) (#18)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:18:44 AM EST
    Wednesday AM Bob McCullough press conference;

    Grand Jury presentment to begin today and run through mid October.

    Says his office has not interviewed the officer himself but the police have and likely by now the FBI.

    When asked about circumstances of his father's death as a police officer prejudicing his action in this matter, he said that if anything it has made him a greater advocate for victims of violent crime -- no matter who does it or it is done to.

    He accuses the governor of double-speak about the talk of replacing him and wants the governor to spit it out once and for all: Is he going to replace him or not???

    Reading yesterday (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:28:19 AM EST
    That neither of them wants to be the one to make the decision. McCullough because of his history of being "pro law enforcement" and it would pi$$ off his supporters and the Gov because if he steps in he owns the result.  Whatever it is.

    Parent
    That (none / 0) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:30:40 AM EST
    And the obvious that no matter who wins in court somebody is going to be very upset.

    Parent
    McCullough Replacement??? (none / 0) (#23)
    by Uncle Chip on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:36:07 AM EST
    The second question after the governor would replace him is: Who do you replace him with????

    If the governor replaces him then he is on the hook for the replacement and whether he does a good job or not.

    If you are the governor, do you want to be on the hook, or keep your distance and not get involved.

    Knowing this governor he would prefer the latter.

    Parent

    then the political ramifications (none / 0) (#47)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 01:05:02 PM EST
    Also the two are both democrats or what stands for democratic in MO.

    Parent
    Of course, he wants final pronouncement now (none / 0) (#43)
    by Palli on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 12:57:21 PM EST
    from the Gov. about different prosecutor or not. Gives him wider reign to work (how ever just or unjust he might contrive the process).
    But indeed, his actions should be monitored as he goes along.

    Parent
    This is a little unnerving to watch.... (none / 0) (#61)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:35:05 PM EST
    Indeed. (none / 0) (#64)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 02:48:08 PM EST
    Breaking..... (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:56:16 PM EST
    Good. (none / 0) (#87)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 06:52:46 PM EST
    Maybe it's just me.... (none / 0) (#67)
    by magster on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:18:08 PM EST
    but mouthing off to a very visibly agitated cop pointing a machine gun at my face while yelling "I will f'ing kill you!!!" is something I probably wouldn't do.

    Parent
    Right... (none / 0) (#74)
    by ScottW714 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 03:39:50 PM EST
    ...and calling him Officer Go F Yourself.

    It does show the mentality of the law, they don't care if the cameras are rolling, they are going to point guns at peaceful people and yell that they are going to kill them.

    that due was unhinged and basically running around it circles yelling at people.  That did not look like someone with any training what-so-ever.

    Parent

    10 to 1 (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 06:48:53 PM EST
    That is not the first time Officer Go F Yourself has said that to a citizen.
    Just happened to be caught on camera.

    Parent
    Gallows Humor... (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:21:33 AM EST
    Officer Go F*ck Yourself is an overnight sensation, has a twitter page and everything...

    If the crybabies at the ACLU get their way, I'll just join another police department. They move us around like Catholic priests.

    Anyone kno a good soothing cream? Papercuts all over my a$$hole from wiping it w/ the Constitution all week

    My wife hasn't had sex w/ me in years bc she doesn't "find sociopaths attractive". Whatever. I'M FAMOUS NOW, SHIRLEY!


    Parent
    Maybe the store owner should be arrested... (none / 0) (#78)
    by citizenjeff on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 04:08:02 PM EST
    ...for trying to physically prevent Michael Brown from leaving.

    Is that the supposedly stolen box of cigars that Michael Brown hands to Dorian Johnson at the :06 mark of the video linked below? Is that the same box of cigars that Johnson places on the counter at :26? Is that the same box of cigars that remains on the counter when Brown and Johnson exit the store?

    Was that box of cigars stolen? Was any box of cigars stolen?

    http://youtu.be/maA1FUJqhew


    You're too late (none / 0) (#88)
    by Jack203 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:11:24 PM EST
    Dorian Johnson's lawyer admitted his client told him AND the FBI that Brown stole the cigars.

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown

    Parent

    Too late? (none / 0) (#92)
    by citizenjeff on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:50:55 PM EST
    The article you cite indeed claims "Johnson's lawyer confirmed that Brown had taken cigars from the store," but it means nothing. Neither does the part that says Johnson "told FBI that [Brown] did take cigarillos."

    I'm not "late" at all. To the contrary, I'm one of the first people to point out what you and most others haven't yet grasped.

    What about the video footage and what I said about it?


    Parent

    Hard to tell much of the video (none / 0) (#93)
    by Jack203 on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:59:06 PM EST
    To begin with the theft of $5-$10 worth of "blunts" was minor compared to the aggression he showed to the clerk.  There was no reason for that.

    But if the angle you want to take is that there was no theft at all.  Why would the clerk try to stop him?  Why would Dorian reportedly admit that Brown took the blunts?

    I think you're going to end up with egg on your face with this one if you persist to claim Brown didn't even commit the petty theft.  

    I also expect much of the evidence that has not been released yet (the injuries to Wilson and initial witness statements) to be much more beneficial to Wilson than Brown.  We shall see.

    Parent

    Johnson's fingering Brown is not an (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by oculus on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:32:06 AM EST
    "admission."  

    Parent
    No reason for aggression? (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by citizenjeff on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:09:47 AM EST
    The clerk tried to physically prevent Brown from leaving. That's not a reason to respond with aggression?

    Why would the clerk try to stop him? Good question. I don't know. That I don't know hardly establishes a robbery occurred. The video shows that Brown grabbed a box and handed it to Johnson. Maybe the clerk didn't see Johnson place the box on the counter, and mistakenly believed they were leaving the store with it. Or maybe the clerk saw Johnson leave the box behind but was nonetheless upset that Brown had grabbed it and handed it to Johnson.

    What Johnson's lawyer said is vague, and doesn't conflict with my description of the video. Apparently, Brown did "take" a box, which he then handed to Johnson. So what? That's not a crime.

    You haven't disputed what I described. Nobody has. It seems to me that you and others are making an assumption based on only the clerk's reaction, and y’all are a bit slow to admit the video doesn't really show that a box of cigars was stolen. Please note I'm not claiming the box was not stolen; I'm only pointing out the video doesn't show it, and that many folks seem to be bizarrely fantasizing to the contrary. The police incident report says the video shows Brown holding a box of cigars in his right hand as he leaves the store. I don't see a box. Nor do I see anyone even trying to describe the exact point in the video at which a box of cigars can supposedly be seen in Brown's hand as he exits. Nor do I see a still photo taken from the video that shows Brown leaving with a box in his hand. So I don't understand why anyone believes the video reveals Brown stole a box of cigars. To me, it reveals the store clerk was agitated.

    Why do you think I'll have egg on my face? For describing what I see in the video?

    Parent

    Trying hard to see what others claim to see (none / 0) (#107)
    by citizenjeff on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:37:55 AM EST
    The video on the page linked below is a little clearer than the other one I linked to. It shows (at :20) Brown had a second box in his hand, which he places on the counter (at :22). He leaves without that box (and without the one he had handed to Johnson) and appears to be holding only snack food in his hand when he leaves the store.

    http://fox2now.com/2014/08/15/raw-video-surveillance-video-believed-to-show-michael-brown-robbing-co nvenience-store/


    Parent

    Not Snack Food (none / 0) (#108)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    It is a handful of 99 cent to $1.29 or so cigarillos in their foil wrappers. 2 per pack.

    Parent
    At least that's possible (none / 0) (#138)
    by citizenjeff on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:10:04 PM EST
    Those who assert a robbery occurred aren't to be taken seriously if they don't even know what was or might have been stolen. Not that it's particularly relevant. This reminds me of arguing with people who claimed George Zimmerman was ordered to cease following Trayvon Martin. They were factually wrong, and by drawing people into an argument about the facts, it conveyed the impression that whether or not Zimmerman followed him, mattered. Well, I suppose it could be somewhat relevant if Brown thought the cops were hunting him as a result of whatever happened at the convenience store. But it's not nearly as relevant as what happened at the scene of the shooting.

    Parent
    Enough of GZ (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by sj on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 06:48:23 PM EST
    Stop. We all beg you. Or most of us anyway.

    Parent
    Well, since you asked nicely (none / 0) (#182)
    by citizenjeff on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 11:02:09 PM EST
    :)

    Parent
    go for special prosecutor-high profile (none / 0) (#91)
    by thomas rogan on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:15:53 PM EST
    That is, someone with the cajones to NOT have the grand jury indict a ham sandwich if, in fact, once all the facts are presented to the grand jury, there is actually no case.  No more Nifongs.

    I read somewhere (sorry, don't know where) that the FPD permits use of deadly force on any subject who has committed a felony (e.g. assault of a LEO) in order to prevent their escape.

    That strikes me as an awful policy, but adhering to it can't be a crime on Wilson's part, can it?

    Court Review of Deadly Force Policy (none / 0) (#115)
    by Emperor of Ice Cream on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 12:52:06 PM EST
    Are there civil rights precedents that affect law enforcement deadly force policies?  I can't believe a policy of blanket authorization of shooting escaping felons (which number child support deadbeats, small time embezzlers, and even speeders) could withstand scrutiny.

    Witness #4 (none / 0) (#123)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 01:27:44 PM EST
    Witness #4 statement (none / 0) (#142)
    by Uncle Chip on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 02:27:06 PM EST
    At the 5:20 mark in this interview this witness says that Brown after getting hit, curled over, and took 2 steps forward, and a fell toward the officer.

    Parent
    But How Close Was Brown to the Officer (none / 0) (#180)
    by RickyJim on Thu Aug 21, 2014 at 09:28:48 PM EST
    When the fatal bullet was fired?  Unfortunately Anderson Cooper didn't ask that in the posted video.

    Parent
    Unfortunately Anderson Cooper didn't ask that (none / 0) (#183)
    by Uncle Chip on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 04:03:32 AM EST
    But we did find out that Brown fell toward the officer, which would mean toward the officer's SUV -- which had apparently been moved by someone just minutes after the shooting, as evidenced by the cellphone video of the crime scene which shows no SUV where it should be.

     It was part of the crime scene in which an alleged struggle for the gun took place, and the gun went off supposedly, and someone might have been shot right there and there might have been blood in it, outside of it, and/or around it.

     The question is who moved it and why???

    Parent

    Composition of the grand jury: (none / 0) (#185)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 12:46:58 PM EST
    Great (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 12:49:57 PM EST
    9 whites 3bkacks.  At least they are consistent in the area of representation

    Parent
    Consistent with the demography (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 01:13:20 PM EST
    Of the area from which the grand jurors are selected.

    Parent
    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 01:17:55 PM EST
    I'm sure that is exactly what the prosecutor would say.  Which is of course only true if you consider all of STL county and not the city of Ferguson and certainly not north STL county.

    Parent
    What do you suggest the county do (none / 0) (#191)
    by oculus on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 03:57:10 PM EST
    regarding composition of this previously sworn-in grand jury?

    Parent
    I have no idea how this stuff works (none / 0) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 04:09:15 PM EST
    How about swearing in a new one.   I mean all we are talking about is the possibility if blood in the streets if the people don't feel it was a fair process.
    But that doesn't seem to matter much or we would have a special prosecutor

    Parent
    Not Where the Murder Took Place (none / 0) (#189)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 01:29:57 PM EST
    Ferguson: 67 percent black and 29 percent white

    St. Louis County: 23% black 70% white.

    Many [municipalities] rely on revenue generated from traffic tickets and related fines. According to a study by the St. Louis nonprofit Better Together, Ferguson receives nearly one-quarter of its revenue from court fees; for some surrounding towns it approaches 50 percent.

    With primarily white police forces that rely disproportionately on traffic citation revenue, blacks are pulled over, cited and arrested in numbers far exceeding their population share, according to a recent report from Missouri's attorney general. In Ferguson last year, 86 percent of stops, 92 percent of searches and 93 percent of arrests were of black people -- despite the fact that police officers were far less likely to find contraband on black drivers (22 percent versus 34 percent of whites). This worsens inequality, as struggling blacks do more to fund local government than relatively affluent whites.

    NYT

    Parent

    And Ferguson itself (none / 0) (#190)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 01:32:17 PM EST
    Is more white than all the area around it.

    Look at the race maps in other threads

    Parent