Obama Blames Pro-Russian Separatists, Putin Blames Ukranians

The blame game continues as to who shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. President Obama blames the pro-Russian rebels. So does British Prime Minister David Cameron. Russian President Putin blames the Ukranian armed forces. Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk urged Western leaders to 'bring justice to those b*******' who brought down the flight. Obama also said that one American with dual citizenship with the Netherlands was on board.

Republicans in Congress are already using the tragedy to call for an increase in defense spending. This tragedy does not call for a military response by the U.S. This is not our fire, we didn't start it, it wasn't directed at us, and whether it was pro-Russian rebels or the Ukranians, they weren't intending to attack the United States. We can help with the investigation into who shot down the plane (which we are already doing)and press for a cease-fire and restitution for the families of the victims from those ultimately deemed responsible, but using the tragedy to call for increased military spending by the U.S. is just political gamesmanship.

< "Shot Out of the Sky": 1 American, Multiple Children on Board | Sentencing Commission Makes Reduction in Drug Sentences Retroactive >
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    Sad (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 06:17:09 PM EST
    That puts a very human face on the (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 06:46:48 PM EST
    Tragedy.  Now I don't feel so patient waiting to know how this happened.

    I saw all the horrific images being posted (5.00 / 3) (#8)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 07:12:22 PM EST
    Yesterday so it already had a human face for me.

    The "debate" about the posting of graphic images is interesting.   I think they should be posted.  And the will be if I think so or not and IMO that is as it should be.  Ukraine or Gaza people should see.  Words don't do it.  


    My spouse thinks true war images should (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 05:57:30 AM EST
    Always be used/posted.  People need to know what war is, many argue for war and have no clue what they concept they argue for is in reality.

    Inferno (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 08:53:49 AM EST
    a truly amazing book

    I can't actually recommend this massive coffee table book.  It is not for everyone.  After I got it, it took me almost a month to get through it.  I bought it because I thought it was a priceless document of the 90s most of us remember so fondly.  It was not a great decade for everyone.  I got all the way through it and have not touched it many times since.  
    One of the photos that stayed with me was from Rwanda (I think) it was not gory or graphic.  It was just a pile of machetes.  A MOUNTAIN of machetes.   Everyone one very VERY used.

    Though he is probably the world's most honored recent war photographer, James Nachtwey calls himself an "antiwar photographer," as the preeminent critic Luc Sante notes in his excellent foreword to Inferno, a landmark collection of 382 war-crime photos. Nachtwey has taken shrapnel and had his hair literally parted by a bullet, but he's never lost his compassionate outrage. The stunning images in this huge-format book--brutally abused Romanian orphans, Rwandan genocide victims, a rat-hunter family of Indian Untouchables barbecuing dinner, skeletal dehydration victims in Sudan, the miserable in Bosnia, Chechnya, Zaire, Somalia, and Kosovo--are excruciating to look at, yet impossible to tear your eyes away from. Nachtwey's art is meant to force us to face unbearable facts. Faces are the key: you can't gaze into the eyes of a Romanian toddler tied to a bed, or wired to a primitive "electromagnetic therapy" device, and not grasp the horror more fully than you would by watching a TV news item or reading a newspaper piece. (The book's text explains each photo's context.)
    Inferno is also a masterpiece in strictly aesthetic terms. The power of Nachtwey's images transcends journalism. Bloody handprints on a living-room wall in Kosovo, the ghostly imprint of a Serb victim's vanished body on a floor, a Hutu with crazed eyes displaying the machete gashes he received for opposing the Tutsis' butchery, a howling orphan in a crib, one eye contracted in anger--these are compositions that depend, like Goya's, on the artist's skill as much as the subject's legitimate claim on our conscience.

    Nachtwey's photographs make us capable of imagining that it could have happened to us. They are hard to forget, or forgive. --Tim Appelo

    Machete (none / 0) (#17)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 09:07:15 AM EST
    The earth moved (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 09:02:07 AM EST
    I totally agree.

    I agree (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 08:06:54 AM EST
    Russia Today reporter resigns (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Politalkix on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 07:19:25 PM EST
    This isn't the first time a passenger jet was (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by desertswine on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 02:39:11 PM EST
    shot down.  In 1988 the US shot down an Iranian passenger plane, killing 290 people including 66 kids.  We decided each life was worth $213,103.45.  
    George H. W. Bush, the vice president of the United States at the time commented on the incident during a presidential campaign function (2 Aug 1988): "I will never apologize for the United States -- I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy."[24][25]

    Even more predictable: sj (2.25 / 4) (#10)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 08:45:38 PM EST

    Obama (1.00 / 1) (#2)
    by lentinel on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 04:35:45 PM EST
    is tough.

    Hillary is tough.

    The Republicans are real tough.

    Obama is tougher.

    Hillary is telling the Europeans how they should feel.

    A human tragedy is translated into craven domestic politics.

    They always are (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by sj on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 06:55:37 PM EST
    A human tragedy is translated into craven domestic politics.
    Not unique to Democrats/Republicans or even Americans/Europeans. As BTD says: pols will be pols.

    Yes (4.33 / 6) (#3)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 04:53:48 PM EST
    And you are apparently not shy about using this tragedy to broadcast your own political schtick.

    lentinel: In all sincerity, (3.00 / 4) (#7)
    by christinep on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 06:58:55 PM EST
    please dial back the constant stream of polemic as to Flight 17.  People are trying to understand what has happened; leaders are trying to lead; and, slightly more than one day has passed since 298 people were blown out of the sky.

     At this point, the rat-a-tat of your predictable political sermon amounts to staccato annoyance. OTOH, do you have thoughts to contribute about the factual situation and the way forward? Or thoughts about what you think should transpire now in Russia, Europe, or the US in view of this catastrophe?


    Possibly with 170 dead Dutch (none / 0) (#1)
    by smott on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 03:57:51 PM EST
    The EU will grow a pair, turn their thermos down to 50F and go a winter without Russian oil.

    They've done it before for longer in WWII

    Who did it and why. (none / 0) (#12)
    by lentinel on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 07:12:01 AM EST
    Obama says Russian separatists.
    Putin says Ukrainians.

    Investigators will tell us the answer. I will wait until I feel I have a reliable source. Not Donald, for example.

    About the speculation about the origin of the missile:

    Are we to consider the origins of the weapons currently being used to bombard Gaza? Or, for that matter, the origins of the weapons used by the Palestinians? Or are we to look at who is firing them and why.

    Looking into the big business and political machinations behind the providing and sale by the big and less big powers to peoples all over the world is an interesting subject, but a diversion for the moment.

    People are putting me down for saying so, but Hillary Clinton telling the Europeans how they should feel about this is really disgusting to me.

    I don't want to be lectured by, say, Hollande in France about how I'm supposed to feel about things.

    Had to google it ... (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 07:51:13 AM EST
    ... since -without having even heard her comments - your characterization sounded strange.  It was:

    "From my perspective -- and I have the benefit of not being in the government -- if there is evidence linking Russia to this, that should inspire the Europeans to do much more."


    "So Europeans have to be the ones to take the lead on this," said the former secretary. "It was a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur over European territory. There should be outrage in European capitals."

    She was talking about the reaction from European leaders and saying that - if this is linked to Russia - they should do much more.  I couldn't agree more.


    Sure, (none / 0) (#18)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 09:38:49 AM EST
    It sounds to me that she's saying that if those things are confirmed, they should be outraged, as in, "they'd have every right to be outraged."

    It's just a supportive, empathetic statement of solidarity.

    I think you really gotta stretch to find something controversial in those remarks.


    I had hoped for better (none / 0) (#19)
    by richj25 on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 09:57:12 AM EST
    The thing is that the US has, for a long time, taken the lead in dealing with situations like the on in Ukraine. Okay, so fine, the day was always going to come when we would take a step back and let Europe deal with its own problems and now that day has come. I would have hoped that process would have been handled a little more deftly with negotiations and agreements with out allies about a diminished role for the US. Instead, we just have this passive-aggressive refusal to lift a finger. This is not a shining moment for us.

    The US has been trying (none / 0) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 10:09:55 AM EST
    To get others involved for decades.  At least.  

    Clearly they are not going to do anything until they have to.  And as long as we do it for them they don't have to.


    And (none / 0) (#21)
    by lentinel on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 11:08:27 AM EST
    the inference is that they are just too dumb, or too lazy, to see it our way.

    Europe (none / 0) (#24)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 11:41:33 AM EST
    is unable to solve even the most basic problems in their own backyard without help from the US. eg: the Balkan carnage in the 1990s, IRA terrorism, etc.

    But as everyone is saying now, Europe should take the lead when it comes to solving their own problems. We should intervene only if Europe strongly wants and backs us to do so.


    Funny thing about "inferences" (none / 0) (#25)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 02:19:20 PM EST
    People can "infer" just about anything they want ...

    Jesus effing Christ (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 01:06:41 PM EST
    Yup, there is no NATO.....and we have no military bases in Europe.  But a load hyperbolic bullsnot.

    Of course. (none / 0) (#23)
    by lentinel on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 11:23:02 AM EST

    Excuse me, but I'm not European and I'm -- well, I'm more sickened than outraged.

    The origin of the missile --- well then we get into arms sales and arms provided to people we want to arm.

    Is anyone asking about the origin of the weapons used to incinerate the six children on the beach in Gaza?

    The individual or individuals responsible should be found and prosecuted. They should be roundly condemned.

    And they will be.

    No coaching from the bench is necessary.

    Of course the Europeans have "every right" to be outraged.
    But why they more than anyone else? When the trade center was attacked, people from all over the world were shocked - and mourned for us. Including Iranians!

    No one has to tell people how they have a right to feel.

    Pure political grandstanding in my opinion.
    It turns my stomach.

    But, it seems more people here are in sympathy with the expressions of our "leaders" and potential candidates than with me.

    So be it.
    This is a forum of opinion.
    For me, it is also a forum for the expression of subjective sentiment.
    No one has to agree with me or see it or feel it my way.


    Grandstanding (none / 0) (#32)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 12:52:13 PM EST
    Pure political grandstanding in my opinion.
    It turns my stomach.

    But, it seems more people here are in sympathy with the expressions of our "leaders" and potential candidates than with me

    You are the one who has been regularly bringing up Hillary and Obama regarding the Malaysian airplane crash and grinding your axe, aka pure political grandstanding.

    So don't act so surprised if your comments are not garnering sympathy here. And quit making believe that the reason you are being criticized is because we are all lovestruck supporters of Hillary and Obama.


    And, (none / 0) (#22)
    by lentinel on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 11:10:51 AM EST
    what if there should be no evidence linking Russia to this?

    What if it is discovered that a Ukrainian is responsible?

    Should that inspire the Europeans to do "much more" as well?


    Probably (none / 0) (#26)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 02:32:40 PM EST
    Either way, you completely mischaracterized what she was saying.

    No. (none / 0) (#28)
    by lentinel on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 03:44:53 PM EST
    I did not.

    She is interested if Russia can be found to be at fault.

    Ukraine, not so much.

    That's what she said.


    What you said ... (none / 0) (#29)
    by Yman on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 04:17:05 PM EST
    ... and what I objected to was your claim that she was "telling the Europeans how they should feel."

    She wasn't.


    Is It all About Language? (none / 0) (#30)
    by RickyJim on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 07:50:12 PM EST
    As far as I know that is the main difference between Ukrainians and Russians. There has been plenty of intermarriage so it it not an racial or religious thing. There is a feature on the Frontline site where a reporter interviewed people on both sides.  All I got out of it was that they don't like each other but still don't understand why.

    Why don't (none / 0) (#31)
    by NYShooter on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 01:35:45 AM EST
    New Yorkers and Mississippians like each other?