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Thursday Night Open Thread

I've got motions due tomorrow and am taking a few hours off to watch El Capo 3, Senor de los Cielos and La Vieuda de Negra. I'll be back to blogging late tonight or tomorrow.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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  • I don't know if anyone.. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 10:40:45 PM EST
    linked to this appalling tale, but I am just horrified.  Imagine the sorrow and the tears.
    800 babies buried in septic tank at Irish home for unwed mothers.
    No I can't imagine.

    I really... (5.00 / 3) (#43)
    by sj on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:09:45 AM EST
    ...really hate to say this (but as someone who went to Catholic school first, and then was stuck with Catechism for years after that) nothing Catholic nuns do surprises me. And I mean both the good and the bad. Is there something about convents that brings out the extremes in the young women that enter?

    And I have to focus on the nuns because I can't let myself think about the babies and their mothers.

    Parent

    I did not read the attached story (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:28:12 AM EST
    Yesterday, didn't see it until CaptHowdy mentioned other stories.  Some of the children died of malnutrition, and children born to unmarried parents could not be baptized and buried in consecrated ground?  My heart is broken.

    Parent
    According to diary at DKos (none / 0) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 12:26:29 PM EST
    NPR is reporting there are at least three more such mass graves of children attached to unwed mothers facilities in Ireland too, also run by nuns.  They all received state funding.

    Parent
    other such "homes" that will be discovered.

    I would also expect that there are nuns still living who were stationed at these homes...

    Parent

    So much suffering (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 12:42:31 PM EST
    The homes were supposed to be receiving some state oversight too.

    Philomena just visited her son's grave four days ago with a huge group of followers gently demanding an apology from the government.  That was before the news broke that Roscrea also has a mass child grave.  I wonder if it is unmarked as well?

    Parent

    From what I've learned, ... (none / 0) (#166)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:46:35 PM EST
    ... that particular gravesite at Sean Ross Abbey in Roscrea was long known, and is duly marked by a memorial garden.

    Parent
    I'm so glad that my grandmother ... (none / 0) (#134)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:23:29 PM EST
    ... is no longer around to read about all of these assorted scandals which are enveloping the Church. Pious and devout Catholic that she was, it would surely have broken her heart.

    Parent
    The lists of individuals born (none / 0) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:38:57 PM EST
    In the homes and looking for family and how they are all inspiring each other is amazing.  To have had a child in the homes or be born in the homes was a huge shame to bear.  The victims have thrown off the shackles.

    Parent
    Let's be honest, though, too. (5.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:28:07 PM EST
    Both the ensuing years and rapidly evolving public opinion have rusted those shackles considerably, since they were first affixed to the victims.

    That said, I'm so very grateful that we no longer live in an era when venerable religious institutions such as the Magdalene laundries were both welcomed and considered by those in power as necessary to the maintenance of the prevailing social order.

    Because the damning truth be told, many people in Ireland -- both those in authority and otherwise -- knew back then about the abominations that were occurring inside those walls. They simply chose to look the other way for reasons which only they could possibly fathom, and thus leave unacknowledged the innate humanity of the many women and children who ultimately became the victims of that grievously warped sense of social propriety.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    One of the newly revealed (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 12:33:20 PM EST
    Mass child graves is at the home for unwed mothers that Philomena was at...Roscrea

    Parent
    Saw that a couple of days ago. (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:43:08 AM EST
    I actually had to stop reading it.   The weight of all those stories.

    Parent
    It's the story of "Philomena," ... (none / 0) (#82)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:05:07 PM EST
    ... only compounded eight hundred-fold. And speaking as a Catholic, the Holy Mother Church now has that much more for which it must answer.

    Parent
    I guess you never heard (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 12:09:11 AM EST
    about the shoot out in the  Toys R Us, eh?

    It's real possible some guy moved his gun while fishing through a pocket for a cell phone so he could use the scan app and see if he had the best price . . . or a mom digging through her purse. Toy depts can be real distracting, especially if you have a child or 19 in tow. Sadly, not all gun nuts are as responsible as your stellar self. Ya know, they sometimes even shoot themselves!

    Well wow (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:59:05 AM EST
    just wow. A friend of mine who is a conservative just came outright and said Bergdhal should have been left with the Taliban. I guess I should say at least she is honest.

    My friend (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:10:55 AM EST
    You are behind the curve.  That is now conventional wisdom

    Parent
    The Bergdahl family is welcome (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:14:28 AM EST
    For dinner in our home anytime.  This is not necessarily a great offer though, but we can always order in.

    Parent
    I can't deal with this any more. (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:29:48 AM EST
    I don't know what's wrong with people.  Have we always been so knee-jerkingly vindictive and judgmental and vengeful?  Is all of that just in us, and it's up to those who lead us to keep it under control by their own actions and decisions?

    It makes me wonder if the next American entertainment venue will be Roman-style coliseums complete with lions and pikes; there's an infrastructure project people could get behind, huh?  Bring the whole family!  Make a night of it!  What a great way to get the homeless off the street and solve the prison overcrowding problem - round 'em up into pens and let the fun begin.

    Okay, so that's an extreme - but there are a lot of things we used to think were extreme that we just ho-hum about now.  And this is how it happens.


    Parent

    I feel (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:52:24 AM EST
    the same way.

    All of this has the whiff of George W. Bush having his minions go after John McCain in 2000 by calling him a traitor. Apparently anybody who doesn't tow the conservative line is considered a "traitor".

    Parent

    Wonder if NYT's (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:38:37 PM EST
    conservative, David Brooks, will be banished from Republican circles?  In his column today, he states that "Obama made the right call."  The link is provided to fully appreciate his prose, but the upshot is: dealing with the Taliban does not matter." Their release may have been imminent anyway." " We have been trying to reach a negotiated settlement and this may be a piece of that.....it is a dirty world and our national leaders are called upon to take the sins of the situation upon themselves for the good of the country to deal with the hateful and compromise with the loathsome.  That's their form of sacrifice and service."

    "It doesn't matter if Bergdahl deserted his post or not. Or was confused... it's based on citizenship...soldiers do not risk their lives for Americans that deserve it; they do it for the nation as a whole.

    Now Brooks may avoid the woodshed from all but the most acute mouth-frothers, by getting in his criticism of the "Oprah-esque photo-op," the tone-deafness about how the swap would be received, and not explaining the decision to his liking.

    Parent

    When (5.00 / 5) (#76)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:49:18 PM EST
    David Brooks and Charles Krauthammer actually are reasonable you have to wonder what the heck is going on.

    CNN is also reporting that the Pentagon is warning people off these attacks on Bergdahl because he has a story to tell too. The pentagon probably knows a lot more than anybody else about this case and if they're saying that well, it makes you think.

    As far as conservatives, they may have shot themselves in the foot. This is not the first time they have attacked the service of someone. Remember the purple band aids and all the attacks on Kerry's service.

    Parent

    Or booing a active gay soldier (5.00 / 3) (#83)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:10:02 PM EST
    At the presidential debate.  

    Parent
    Oh and the shameful (5.00 / 6) (#86)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:11:56 PM EST
    Way Max Cleland, who lost three limbs, was treated.

    Yeah, the right is all about supporting the troops.

    Parent

    There is still a child that was run over (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:42:33 PM EST
    By some military vehicle that some of Bergdahl's fellow soldiers laughed about to account for too.

    Parent
    Write the book Bowe! (5.00 / 2) (#115)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:43:04 PM EST
    People sometimes do,things in war (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:00:57 PM EST
    That haunt them forever. Good people do terrible things.   That story reminds me of a long night I spent in the early seventies, on acid if you can imagine this conversation on acid, with a good friend just back from the war.
    Tears streaming down his face he told me about a game they would play.  The local people were starving and they would drive through the countryside in tight convoys.  People, mostly children he said, would gather on the sides of the road to beg for food.  The game was this - they would toss food out on the road and bet on the child getting in getting the food and getting out before being run over by the next vehicle in the convoy.

    That night is etched into my consciousness.  He was a good man.

    Parent

    I know it offends some to talk (none / 0) (#127)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:08:50 PM EST
    About the pack mentality and Homo sapiens, but human beings have it too.  That is why in a combat zone mature strong leaders must be fingertips away.

    Doesn't appear any such thing existed in Bergdahls unit.  I saw a video of them last night and was just blown away by how unprofessional and oblivious and lost everyone was.  Kids with big guns, that's all I saw.

    Parent

    That is not a story I tell often (5.00 / 2) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:16:36 PM EST
    Because it could so easily be taken the wrong way.  Two things I took away from that conversation - under the right circumstances we are all capable of unimaginable things and until we are in them we have no idea what we would do.  And I had no right whatsoever to judge him or any one else.

    I have thought as I said before it almost seems like Bergdahl might have reacted to this stuff the way I like to think I would have.  By loseing his mind.

    Parent

    Oh, my (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:47:03 PM EST
    things seem to be getting worse. Of course him coming out and talking about this would undercut his critics.

    I read that Bergdahl's family were/are conservative Christians and Bowe was home schooled. Hmm, do they realize that they are once again undercutting their own message. I'm guessing home schooling now creates traitors? Conservative Christianity now breeds traitors to the country.

    Parent

    They're eating their own young. (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:12:38 PM EST
    Interesting family (none / 0) (#129)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:15:20 PM EST
    He seemed like the perfect soldier material, beautifully conflicted.  He wanted to be a mercenary?  He wanted to save Taliban schools and help the children :)?

    That is exactly the conflict the US military wants these days :). No mentors for him though where he was.

    Parent

    Hahahahaha (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:02:23 PM EST
    Brooks sees where this is going and wants to get on the right side before it blows up in the GOPers face..

    a true bellwether aka political hack but smart one..

    Parent

    That is (none / 0) (#84)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:10:44 PM EST
    what I'm thinking. They're trying to send out a message to the monster but the monster is not listening.


    Parent
    Brooks has always kinda-sorta (none / 0) (#85)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:11:50 PM EST
    respected Obama.

    Krauthammer being anything but a below-the-belt-hitting hack would be a shock.

    Parent

    Sounds like you don't know Krauthammer (none / 0) (#87)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:13:08 PM EST
    Has been very vocal about this already

    Parent
    Know? (none / 0) (#93)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:29:19 PM EST
    I've been listening to him as long as I could stomach him -- which usually isn't long -- for years.

    If he's being reasonable in this instance, I'm surprised and very glad to hear it.

    Parent

    Crooks and liars (none / 0) (#94)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:33:31 PM EST
    There are links in the prisoner thread

    Parent
    Yes, (none / 0) (#105)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:03:44 PM EST
    and maybe the NYT editorial (June 6) entitled: "The Rush to Demonize Sgt. Bergdahl"  will be heeded by the more level-headed Americans.    I think I have to give absolution to the NYT for my earlier misgivings, although the editorial writers may, too, have feared that their previous criticism s were misconstrued or mis-used.

    From the referenced editorial: "Though we criticized the administration for ignoring the law in not informing Congress of the transfer of the Taliban detainees 30 days in advance, leave it to Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and other hyperventilators to claim that continued release of prisoners from Guantanamo without prior notice is now considered an impeachable offense, a ludicrous leap."

    Parent

    It's ironic, too (none / 0) (#58)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:08:35 PM EST
    A few months ago, McCain was arguing in favor of an exchange for Bergdahl.  Now he's one of the attack dogs, and no one from the media is calling him on it.

    Parent
    Maddow (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:35:24 PM EST
    Hat tip CaptHowdy...

    link

    Parent

    What he said (none / 0) (#62)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:33:22 PM EST
    Now this idea is for an exchange of prisoners for our American fighting man. I would be inclined to support such a thing depending on a lot of the details.

    He doesn't like the 5 for 1 details in this case, now.    

    I will grant you it's a little convienent that he's basing his new found disgust on some clever word play but this is not quite as bad a flip flop as we've seen before from other and even him.

    Maybe a flop-flip?

    Parent

    He said more than that (none / 0) (#136)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:33:23 PM EST
    MCCain tried to leave a little wiggle room to hedge, but whatever "details" ("5 for 1" etc.) he's claiming to object to now, he wasn't objecting to them before.  These were the same five prisoners that were being discussed back in 2012, when McCain - after initially objecting - came around to supporting the exchange.  It was the same proposed exchange that was on the front page of the WP back in February.

    See Donald's link for details of McCain's "Upside-Down Pinocchio" (full flip-flop).

    Parent

    Update: To his credit, ... (none / 0) (#107)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:09:17 PM EST
    ... Glenn Kessler of the Washington Post -- who admittedly is hardly one of my favorite journalists -- has now called out Sen. McCain, accused of epic flip-flopping, and even backed up that assertion with some meticulous documentation.

    No doubt, Arizona's middle-fingered salute to anger management counseling is probably seething.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Jesus (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:12:50 AM EST
    I cannot fathom this crazed hate.

    I tried not to read this morning on it, but was not successful.  I settled on reading something at Hotair about this huge file the intel community has on Bergdahl and how it may or may not contain information on his collaboration.

    That's all it takes to convince these folks?

    We are broken, a significant number of Americans have purposefully lit up the neurons of the lizard portion of their brain to the point that they have developed a neurosis and/or a psychosis.

    Parent

    Starting to think this is (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:21:39 AM EST
    Going to backfire.  Already seeing it.   Rocket science is fortunately not needed to see this is just wrong.  On so many levels.

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:49:08 AM EST
    Obama's ratings seem to be going up. So there would be your evidence.

    It's not rocket science. Hillary said the perfect repsonse "We don't leave Americans behind" period end of discussion. We don't get to decide who is worthy and who is not. They are Americans.

    Parent

    Wrong (2.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:36:28 PM EST
    what numbers exactly?  His approval is in the tank and that's not going to change before he leaves office.   Sorry.

    The reason he's taking a beating on this is the Rose Garden spectacle and the Susan Rice Benghazi part II appearance on the Sunday Shows.

    You like the president have to put up straw men that people are actually arguing we should have left him behind.

    The arguments are we shouldn't have traded so much for him and we shouldn't have celebrated his return.

    But think what you want.   Obama is the king of straw men and you apparently like to do the same.

    Parent

    Funny (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:39:54 PM EST
    McCain said the trade was a good one..  now not so.

    as well as all the other GOP hacks who supported the trade before they got the GOP memo..

    Parent

    Squeaky, McCain is a hero (1.00 / 1) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:51:25 PM EST
    you couldn't carry his toothbrush.

    He was offered a chance to get out of prison because of who he was and the communists wanted to garner some good publicity.

    He refused.

    Now, go sit in the corner and reflect that you are free to insult him because of people like him.

    That you do so on this day is especially disgusting.

    Parent

    Part hero who came home (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:57:12 PM EST
    On his own.  No prisoner transfers for him

    oh, wait

    Parent

    I looked (none / 0) (#155)
    by sj on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:02:05 PM EST
    for confirmation that he was part of a trade other than that image and a middle sized search came up empty -- they just say he was released. I got tired of reading about him so I still have no confirmation.

    Parent
    Here ya go (5.00 / 1) (#160)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:17:43 PM EST

    McCain was released with the general phased release of American POWs held by the DRV as part of the Paris Peace Accords of January 1973. He was released in March, 1973.

    That agreement did, in fact, call for an "exchange" of prisoners. Both NLF and PAVN combatants were released by the RVN as part of the ceasefire agreement. That said, it was not technically an exchange, since it was premised on a ceasefire. Obviously, that ceasefire was short-lived.



    Parent
    The point being (1.00 / 1) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:06:05 PM EST
    McCain was offered early release.

    He turned it down.

    That war was over.

    This one isn't. The North Vietnamese were no threat to capture other Americans and behead them or trade them. The Muslim radicals are,

    You folks are reaching.

    Parent

    Very unlikely it would have been stated in that (none / 0) (#159)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:13:12 PM EST
    Way.  But of course prisoners were exchanged.   Back then there was no doubt more than one.  Then of course there was the ongoing horror stories of POWs left behind.

    Parent
    TBT or C (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:17:45 PM EST
    Squeaky, McCain is a hero you couldn't carry his toothbrush.

    Finally in the heat of defending your boy, we get to find out what you were doing during your 10 years of service..  you were the toothbrush transporter. Sounds about right.

    I am sure you can opine on who used what toothbrush, who had false teeth, and who had poor dental hygiene. Tell us about McCain's dental hygiene, please we want to know.

    As far as insulting McCain, I did no such thing.  

    But be my guest, revel in disgust. I am sure you are an expert in that too.

    Parent

    Squeaky, whatever I did (2.00 / 1) (#178)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:07:05 PM EST
    It was more than you.

    Parent
    "time-based texting"????70 (none / 0) (#167)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:46:38 PM EST
    Tooth Brush Transporter (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 07:01:23 PM EST
    or Tooth Brush Carrier

    Parent
    Is that so? (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:24:40 PM EST
    Are you impugning... (none / 0) (#174)
    by desertswine on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:57:04 PM EST
    the reputation of John "Songbird" McCain.  I heard he was a movie star for the NVA.

    Parent
    You do what you have to... (none / 0) (#175)
    by desertswine on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:58:09 PM EST
    to survive.

    Parent
    My father was awarded the Navy Cross posthumously, having lost his life while saving hundreds of Americans in the Feb. 1964 Viet Cong terror bombing of the Kinh Do Theatre. He was actually on weekend leave at the time, having just returned from advisory duty with the 4th Vietnamese Marine Brigade in the Mekong Delta, and he certainly didn't have to enter that theatre to do what he did. That he did so was out of a sense of duty to both his country and to his fellow Americans.

    I wrote a little about him in these threads not all that long ago, when we made a trip to Vietnam. While I acknowledge his heroism, I freely admit that I'm very uncomfortable discussing what happened to him, even fifty years after the fact, because I've seen and heard far too many people over the years -- including, sad to say, some of his USMC colleagues -- attempt to exploit both his name and his deeds for their own particular purposes.

    A decade ago, the conservative (and now former) congressman from my father's old home district in northern Illinois even wanted to re-open the case into the bombing in order to publicly recommend that he be awarded the Medal of Honor. (My father was killed six months before the Gulf of Tonkin resolution passed Congress in Aug. 1964, when hostilities became officially recognized, and he was not eligible for consideration of the MOH on that basis.) We politely but firmly turned him down flat, the reason being that my father was long dead, and we saw no point in allowing the congressman to use either the man as a means to garner publicity, or his family as political props on what I'll simply call a fool's errand.

    That said, I don't ever deign to question other people's love of country, even that congressman's, though some might argue that I have standing to do so by sole virtue of being my father's son. And neither, too, should you do so. Impugning another's patriotism is very unbecoming and horribly divisive, it's ugly and it's simply not right. Please stop, before you say something you'll really regret and can't rescind.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Donald, let me be plain (1.00 / 2) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:09:46 PM EST
    I served 10 years in Naval Aviation.

    I honor everyone's service.

    But I don't trade on anyone's service.

    You should leave your father out of this and be your own man.

    Parent

    Heh, heh, heh (5.00 / 3) (#182)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:26:14 PM EST
    ... from the guy who just yesterday was saying:

    My Dad and one Uncle were in the Marines in WWII. Two were in the Army. All came home okay except one was wounded. They never talked about it in any detail. Looking back I can see that it was, "It's over. I lived. Let's get on with our lives."

    BTW - I have no doubt they did just that.  Guys who actually fought in war are often like that.  It's the guys who didn't who constantly allude to their " __ years of service" in vague terms as though others should be impressed.

    Parent

    Yman the Parser (1.00 / 3) (#188)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:42:56 PM EST
    Why don't you be complete??

    by christinep on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 06:48:06 PM CST
    .....  Yet--and, perhaps, as the daughter of a proud member of the Marine Corps, I am certainly not averse to a strong military action where it is required in the interests of the United States and/or humanitarian interests.

    My reply:

    Your kidding yourself if you think Obama wants to do anything but reduce our defense capability.

    My Dad and one Uncle were in the Marines in WWII. Two were in the Army. All came home okay except one was wounded. They never talked about it in any detail. Looking back I can see that it was, "It's over. I lived. Let's get on with our lives."

    Now there. Donald has spent no time in the military yet he seems to think that his exposure to his father makes him expert. My comment was a simple response to christinep comment.

    But you go a head and snark. As I have Squeaky and several others here, whatever I did was more than them.

    And you.

    Parent

    Not "parsing" a thing, Jim (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:57:58 PM EST
    Just laughing ...

    ... and laughing ...

    ... and laughing ...

    BTW - Your newfound appreciation of context is refreshing!  Usually, you just cut quotes off right in the middle to distort them and state "He said what he said!".  Now, you want to include quotes from other people to try to your own words sound more plausible!

    Doesn't work, but it's a nice change!

    Parent

    BTW (5.00 / 2) (#194)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:02:33 PM EST
    Now there. Donald has spent no time in the military yet he seems to think that his exposure to his father makes him expert.

    So by that standard, we should ignore your "expertise" as to how an actual soldier serving in combat should act ...

    Parent

    jimakaPPJ: "You should leave your father out of this and be your own man."

    ... growing up and acting like one, instead of always lashing out at everyone and insulting them in some rather startlingly personal terms, by which you come off like nothing more than a 70-something who's long been stunted in a perpetual pre-adolescent emotional state. Like I told you yesterday, there's no fool quite like an old fool, and you're weekly proving yourself no more wiser for having grown older.

    Regarding your claim to honor other people's military service, you can start putting your money where your big mouth is, and cease and desist your nauseating attacks on Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, and by extension his family. Your accusations against him are based on nothing but the warped conjecture of some loudmouthed GOP chickenhawks which you heard on Radio Blowhard. Neither they nor you know exactly what happened to Sgt. Bowe in Afghanistan and how he fell into Taliban captivity, any more than I or anyone else here do. And -- again -- you therefore have absolutely no business claiming that he deserted his post.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    sorry (none / 0) (#68)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:15:43 PM EST
    I don't buy it.

    There are legitimate reasons to be upset with how this deal was handled.

    Let me stay clearly I have no problem bringing this guy home.  We had a duty to do so.  Even if he's a deserter (which I think it's pretty obvious he was).

    However...

    A) Are we so bad at negotiating that it takes 5 high level Taliban leaders to get one soldier back?  Why not 1, 2 or even 3.   How did we get to 5?  Why was it now so urgent when Obama's own administration has repeatedly nixed the deal?

    B) Why did Obama hide this?  If it was such a good deal why did he not inform Congress?  I don't think he had to ask permission.  I think he should have told Congress as the law says.   IMHO he did so because he didn't want to hear the answer.   All this stuff about health and death if it was leaked is spin after the fact.   I hope you don't actually believe it.

    C) Rose Garden.   Obama hoped that he would get good PR from this.   He was wrong.   Why knowing all the murky details surrounding this guy did he have to make it about him?   We know why.   In any situation Obama likes to put himself right in the PR center if he thinks it will benefit him politically.   Dumb move.   He should have known better and because he was so selfish the military will now probably have to do an investigation they could have probably otherwise avoided if he'd just brought him home.

    I will be the first to admint Republicans are piling on but so what?   So do Dems when a republican is in the White House.   Why should it matter.

    So focsed do we become on not wanting the other side to be right any of the time we denounce hypocrisy with our own hypocrisy.

    The left is making up things the republicans are saying to justify their support for what was an obvious PR disaster by this president.

    Why can't you just say it was the right thing to do and the president should have handled it better?

    That's my position.

    Parent

    It would (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:20:15 PM EST
    not have mattered if it were three. The screaming would continue. It would have not mattered if it was one the screaming would have continued. The GOP will just move the goal posts like you are no matter what number it was. If it had been ten Taliban you would be saying ten is too much but five would have been okay.

    Calm down and let the military sort it all out with regards to his status.

    Parent

    Don't Buy What? (none / 0) (#80)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:01:12 PM EST
    That McCain and other GOPers did a 100% turnaround?

    If you can bear it take a look at Maddow's little history lesson. If what you have been saying lately is honest, you will be shocked.

    I do understand that the propaganda spewed forth by GOP operatives in the last week or two, would be hard for someone like you to not buy into..  so if you are shocked... I understand..

    link

    Parent

    The (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    most recent one by Ramsussen has him at 51. Yeah, I know it's Rasmussen but they are the most current one. 43 on Gallup which is an upward trend. You act like his numbers are in George W. Bush territory of the high 20's to low 30's. You guys are screaming and having a meltdown over all this. Please take a Xanax and go to bed. A POW coming home is not the end of the world and now the press narrative is starting to turn on you guys with Krauthammer and Brooks going against you.

    Parent
    I hope you are right (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:22:28 AM EST
    I'm in shock right now.

    Parent
    What would they say if (none / 0) (#40)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:43:52 AM EST
    he had been killed or if he had just wasted away and died from illness in the hands of the Taliban? I doubt they'd say "good riddance, Obama did the right thing".

    Parent
    If he had died or been killed (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:21:15 AM EST
    They would have swung the opposite direction.  Obama killed another hero with his incompetency, left him to die alone at the hands of the enemy.

    The classified file story would read, "Intel community had gathered an enormous amount of information on the POW Bergdahl after his capture, and Obama chose to not act in order save the soldiers life"

    He is not just a sack of meat though you swing around to knock the brown usurper out with unless you have some sociopathic tendencies.  

    Parent

    Left to die (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:23:13 AM EST
    JUST LIKE BENGHAZIIIIIII

    Parent
    ... "Remember Benbergdahlzi!!!"

    Parent
    Are you gonna tell me it's an accident (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:52:45 PM EST
    That Bergdahl and Bengazi both start with a B?
    Really?

    Parent
    LOL! (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:40:11 PM EST
    That reminds me of an early "WKRP in Cincinnati" episode from the fall of 1977, in which the station's conspiracy-addled newsman Les Nessman (Richard Sanders) goes on the air to breathlessly report the death of crooner Bing Crosby to the listening audience:

    "First it was Elvis, and now Bing. Coincidence -- OR IS IT ?!!??"

    I still think that one of the single funniest sitcom episodes EVAH!! was the one showcasing the hapless WKRP staff's infamous Thanksgiving Day promotion, in which live turkeys were dropped from a helicopter upon unsuspecting shoppers in a parking lot at a local mall. "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."

    Aloha.

    Parent

    I liked it too (none / 0) (#118)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:51:05 PM EST
    Please rescue the MoDo thread (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:58:26 PM EST
    I'm off duty (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:04:28 PM EST
    Why? (none / 0) (#122)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:00:52 PM EST
    Did it get into some sort of trouble?

    Parent
    lizard brains lit up.. (5.00 / 3) (#41)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:47:33 AM EST
    that started awhile back when a liberal black man with a forn-soundin' name got elected.

    Parent
    That (none / 0) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:51:20 AM EST
    is all it takes. Just the implication of something and they are all over it. It's desperation I guess.

    It's time for the GOP to close up shop if this is what they've been reduced to.

    Parent

    Close up shop? They think they finally (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:56:55 AM EST
    have something - they're on a roll, baby!

    No, the only glimmer of hope there is that they might get the message that their brand of insanity is not selling, would be for this Bergdahl thing to blow up in their faces in the most publicly humiliating way possible.

    Parent

    Even (none / 0) (#39)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:16:20 AM EST
    then nothing would change. The stuff Tracy is saying is pretty much pointing to the fact that it is going to blow up in their face but even when that happens it's not going to penetrate the bubble they reside in.

    The only positive thing I can say is that some of the GOP elite "get it" but like I've said before they have created a monster of their own making so whatever the elite does does not matter.

    Parent

    To quote Napoleon: (none / 0) (#126)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:07:41 PM EST
    "Jamais interférer avec votre adversaire lorsqu'il commet une erreur." (Never interfere with your opponent when he is making a mistake.)

    Parent
    I posted a link to last nights (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:46:41 AM EST
    Maddow segments on Berghdahl.  You really should take a look.  The information really puts the whole thing in a new light.  At least for me.

    Yes (none / 0) (#47)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:45:18 AM EST
    Saw it..  super clear case about how Politicians are liars, and that the GOP spin has zero to do with the prisoner exchange or events leading up to it.

    Nothing new. Maddow is a little annoying though, imo..

    Parent

    Was he worth it? (5.00 / 4) (#48)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:49:35 AM EST
    Nixon gave a real (5.00 / 2) (#150)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:55:22 PM EST
    "Oprah-esque" photo-op for returning POW's.  More than the Rose Garden, all of the South Lawn for a great dinner.  At a time that Nixon was in trouble, but a great idea anyhow.   Even the 40 year anniversary.

    Parent
    For anybody with Netflix... (5.00 / 2) (#199)
    by desertswine on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 12:06:05 AM EST
    I just watched a really interesting documentary called "Beware of Mr. Baker."  It's about the marvelously insane drummer Ginger Baker.  Tragic yet funny, it's the best thing I've seen in a long time.

    D-Day (2.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    Why is Putin at the D-Day celebration anyway?

    And why is Angela Merkel there?  To remind her country that lots of Nazi's and German regulars gave their lives defending a horrible dictator?

    I'm all for celebrating such an historic day but shouldn't it be reserved for the Allied Nations that participated in the invasion?

    Just wondering.  

    Sometimes I think we miss the point of these tributes.   It's about the guys that didn't come back.   Not about our current state of politics.

    It was worth having Putin there (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:21:07 PM EST
    Just to hear the French president call him Poutine

    Parent
    Spent time in Quebec (none / 0) (#77)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:51:42 PM EST
    Really not fond of Poutine.  But when I was looking for that wiki I found something with a similar name that sounds good. Gonna try it

    Poutine Râpée

    Poutine Râpée is an Acadian boiled dumpling made from potato stuffed with pork in the centre.

    Parent

    Slado, you're really far too young to be ... (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:28:24 PM EST
    ... carrying your parents' and grandparents' grudge against the descendants of those who once fought for the Axis powers. You might just as well ask why our Japanese visitors choose to go to Pearl Harbor, seven decades ex post facto.

    Famous battlefields shouldn't be the sole province of the victors alone. Were it otherwise, white southerners would be prohibited from visiting any number of those national parks and sites commemorating the U.S. Civil War.

    No doubt, the reason for Chancellor Merkel's appearance in Normandy today is threefold:

    • To salute the victors, and pay homage to their dead and wounded;

    • To remember the vanquished, who suffered the misfortune of having served on the wrong side (and in that regard, it might surprise you to learn that an estimated 25% of the 115,000 Wehrmacht troops opposing the Allied landings in Normandy 70 years ago were actually Russian POWs, who were forcibly conscripted by the Germans to work the supply lines in order to free up ethnic Germans for the front lines); and

    • To seek to reassure an anxious Europe and world that never again will Germany be the primary root cause of so much widespread pain, suffering and grief.

    Aloha.

    Parent
    Also (none / 0) (#111)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:29:27 PM EST
    Because they are having meetings of the G-7 in France (yesterday in Brussels, continuing today in France).

    Parent
    jb, the 70th anniversary commemoration ... (none / 0) (#119)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:56:29 PM EST
    ... of the D-Day landings was planned long before this year's G8 / now-G7 summit was relocated from it original site in Sochi, Russia to Brussels in the wake of the crisis in Ukraine. They didn't all show up at Omaha Beach on a whim, just because they so happened to be nearby.

    Parent
    I'm not saying I'm right (none / 0) (#196)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:16:14 PM EST
    I guess I'm just disgusted that what should be a serious ceremony has turned into a mini Olympics opening extravaganza.

    I'm mean really.  Keep it classy guys.  I am just cynical that our current leaders are more concerned about their own PR then actually honoring the men that died there.

    And shouldn't winning have some sort of consequence? Why does everyone need to be a part of it?

    Have a few speeches, play taps and call it a day.

    I'm sure the guys that actually stormed the beach wouldn't want more then that.

    Parent

    The Soviets helped to beat (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:42:00 PM EST
    the Nazis.....They took Berlin....I am not sure why anyone would question their presence...

    The Germans are now our allies.

    What is the problem?

    Parent

    Fox news attempts (none / 0) (#57)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:04:15 PM EST
    to answer my question

    While I'm sympathetic to the plight of the regular German soldier it still doesn't seem right that these guys are celebrating the invasion along with our guys that stormed the beach.

    I mean if this guys had won Europe would be a mess.

    Oh well.   I guess I should just be glad they're still doing a celebration.

    I will be remembering D-day by watching "Band of Brothers" this weekend.

    Parent

    You (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:23:15 PM EST
    have to realize that Germans are mortified and ashamed that that ever happened in their country these days. Unlike here in the south where they wear that kind of stuff with pride.

    Parent
    Is it really that hard (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:58:57 PM EST
    to imagine why Putin would be there? Our allies in the east did engage and turn back roughly 2/3s of the German Army on the Eastern Front, without which D-Day may not have amounted to a hill of beans.

    Putin's there a generous expression of the spirit of remembrance and solidarity; regardless of the rough patches U.S-Russian relations may endure today.

    Parent

    As I've noted here before, ... (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:40:32 PM EST
    ... an estimated 27 million Soviet citizens -- both civilian and military -- died in the Second World War. Ethnic Russians accounted for about 70% of that total number, which further constituted approximately 15% of the country's entire pre-war population. (In sharp contrast, American deaths during the Second World War amounted to .03% of the U.S. population.)

    Further, 80% of all German casualties in the Second World War occurred on the Eastern Front. It's sobering to consider that for every German soldier who died in combat in the east, he took on average four of his Soviet counterparts with him.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Yes, thank you Donald, (none / 0) (#162)
    by KeysDan on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:19:19 PM EST
    Stalin was pressing  Roosevelt and Churchill since 1942 to mount a second front in the West; Eisenhower was tasked with preparing plans but at Churchill's urging, the plans and dates were put off owing to claims of ill-preparedness.  The British wanted a North African campaign, which they got.  Finally, at the Tehran conference Roosevelt and Stalin prevailed and a date was set for the second front. The Russians agreed to a simultaneous offensive in eastern Europe.   Meanwhile, the Russian army and people were a bulwark against the Hitler Reich.

    As for Mrs. Merkel's presence, for the reasons stated above, as well as being a member of NATO and for demonstration of European unity, a timely consideration.

    Parent

    Truth be told, we were simply not ready ... (none / 0) (#171)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:12:17 PM EST
    ... to invade France before June 1944. The British and Canadians launched their ill-fated raid in force upon the French port city of Dieppe on August 19, 1942, in part to show their impatient and impulsive American allies exactly what awaited us, were we to launch ourselves across the English Channel hastily and prematurely.

    By most all accounts, while Dieppe proved to be a most valuable lesson militarily, it was also both a bloodbath and a disaster. The Canadian 2nd Infantry Division, which spearheaded the assault, was for all practical purposes extinguished as an effective fighting force. 3,367 Canadian troops were either killed, wounded or taken prisoner before the attack was finally called off eight hours later, along with 275 British commandos. The Royal Navy lost one destroyer, 33 landing craft and 523 men killed, and the Royal Air Force lost 104 aircraft and 70 pilots. By contrast, the Germans lost 191 killed that day, and about 400 wounded.

    Now, mind you, all this occurred 22 months before D-Day, when the Atlantic Wall was not yet fully completed, and the Germans were far stronger than they were in mid-1944.

    One can only imagine what might have happened to American public opinion in 1942, had the U.S. Army's argument for a cross-channel invasion prevailed, and our relative handful of green Army units -- a truly paltry number when compared to nearly two million men we were subsequently able to deploy to southern England by the spring of 1944 -- charged across to Calais and straight into the teeth of a veteran Nazi war machine, as was initially proposed and discussed. in that regard, the British and Canadians did us a really big favor by tempering our irrational exuberance.

    Aloha.

    Parent

    Are you sure that... (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by unitron on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:36:03 PM EST
    ...celebration is the right word and not observance or memorial?

    There was a lot of heroism on 9/11, but we don't "celebrate" the anniversary of it.

    Parent

    Well considering (2.00 / 1) (#195)
    by Slado on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:05:52 PM EST
    They had interpretive dance I don't know what else you'd call it.

    Parent
    Let me see (1.00 / 1) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:01:49 PM EST
    I have stated I support gay rights including gay marriage.

    And you want to start registering people.

    When I note the hypocrisy of your position you "fart" in my direction???

    And claim my comment was homophobic??

    Really?? It was your remark that was.

    If you didn't mean it and didn't see how that's exactly what some people wanted to do when AIDS first hit  then I toast your ignorance.

    talk talk talk talk talk (5.00 / 2) (#156)
    by sj on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:04:51 PM EST
    Let me see (none / 0) (#154)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:01:49 PM MDT

    I have stated I support gay rights including gay marriage.

    Who have you voted for or donated to that advances that position? How exactly do you support that position? With comments here at TL?

    Parent
    As I explained and explained (1.00 / 2) (#180)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:24:10 PM EST
    I am not a Democrat and I am not a Repub and I am not a one issue voter and I am not silly enough to vote for people who will, if they don't change their ways, allow Sharia law to become part of the US code.

    Do I need to remind you what happens to gays in places were radical Muslims are in control?? And it is spreading to the EU.

    This shows how strong the Islamic gaybashers feel they are. Even at daylight, on Queen's Day, in the heart of Amsterdam, they strike . . . . The Dutch nationality of the gaybashers of Rembrandt Square should immediately be taken from them and they should be expelled from the country today. The Netherlands can show no mercy for these people who damage our society in this way. Either they will win, or we will win.

    Link

    Win the war we are in and then I'll give more weight to social issues.

    Parent

    Price of Freedumb (none / 0) (#1)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 09:09:04 PM EST
    The person who did this is anti-gun (1.00 / 3) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 10:51:56 PM EST
    No one else would.

    Parent
    Oh, really. (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 05, 2014 at 11:09:49 PM EST
    Prove it.

    Parent
    So many silly, specious claims ... (5.00 / 4) (#9)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:44:54 AM EST
    ... with absolutely no evidence to back them up.

    Where do you find the time?

    BTW - Using your "logic", I guess all those gun owners who manage to accidentally shoot themselves or other - or leave their guns where kids can get them - must be "anti-gun", because "no one else would".  Like:

    This guy who accidentally shot a woman at Walmart.

    Or this guy who left his gun out and a 13 year old girl died.

    Or this woman who left her gun in a church.

    Need a few dozen more?

    Parent

    Gun nuts are (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by MKS on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:23:53 AM EST
    nutty......

    Parent
    To bad they don't have to be registered (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:47:54 AM EST
    We could find out

    Parent
    Capt, do you really support (none / 0) (#106)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:04:48 PM EST
    registering people based on their behavior?

    Parent
    When the "behavior" is buying ... (none / 0) (#142)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:41:21 PM EST
    ... a weapon which presents a risk like those associated with guns?

    Absolutely

    Parent

    So you would register gun owners? (1.00 / 1) (#183)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:31:07 PM EST
    And who would be next??

    First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a socialist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me--
    and there was no one left to speak out for me."

    link

    It is amazing how un-liberal you show yourself to be.

    Parent

    Nope. Just the car owners (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:59:52 PM EST
    Oh, wait ... they already "came for" them!!!

    The horror!

    Heh, heh, heh ...

    Parent

    "Anti-gun".. (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:55:00 AM EST
    No one else would?

    How about the kind of geniuses who walk into crowded restaurants with assault rifles?

    Parent

    There are photos/video of (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:51:29 AM EST
    the guy the Myrtle Beach PD wants to question regarding the gun.

    Could be a very interesting conversation.

    Parent

    Saw that? (none / 0) (#50)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 11:56:47 AM EST
    On Friday, Myrtle Beach Police released the identity of the last known registered owner of the handgun: Chavonne Tere Moore. She is wanted for questioning in reference to the incident. Anyone with information on Moore is asked to contact Detective Jones, or text "TIPSC plus your message" to CRIMES (274637).


    Parent
    "We don't know the motive (none / 0) (#132)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:21:51 PM EST
    "We don't know the motive behind putting the gun there. We don't know if [the] loss prevention [officer] might have spooked the subject so he thought he was being followed, or might have been getting ready to get stopped so he ditched the gun, or if there was some other motive," said Captain David Knipes, with the Myrtle Beach Police Department.


    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#135)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:25:52 PM EST
    The shelf of a toy store is the first place I would think of for getting rid of a loaded hand gun.  Preferable among the toy guns.

    Parent
    And? (none / 0) (#138)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:38:11 PM EST
    Absent a confession, of course they don't know why the person put it there.  What is your point in stating the obvious?

    Parent
    General Motors, (none / 0) (#7)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:35:26 AM EST
    knowingly let cars be sold that had a lethal defect. People were killed. The investigation so far, "cited bureaucratic problems and the failure of individual employees."

    This reminded me of the fate of the crews of the Challenger space shuttle who met their demise at the hands of an engineering blunder and an intransigent bureaucracy which, having been warned that the O rings might fail, ordered the launch anyway.

    To those who offered that Reagan was "comforting us" by saying that the crew had, "touched the face of God" - instead of assuring us that he would get to the bottom of the individual and corporate malfeasance - I ask:

    What would you think if Obama were to preside over a funeral of one of the victims who died in the defective GM vehicles, saying that he or she had "touched the face of God"?

    Are you sure.... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by unitron on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:45:51 AM EST
    ...they didn't launch in spite of the weather being too cold because of pressure from the Reagan White House to make sure the Teacher in Space thing happened without delay?

    Parent
    No. (none / 0) (#16)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:55:05 AM EST
    I'm not sure.

    What I do know it that they launched, knowing that the weather was too cold and that the O rings were not designed to deal with it.

    If Reagan was involved with the decision to launch, it makes his "face of God" speech all the more glaringly an attempt to cover up malfeasance by wrapping himself in the flag and a pseudo-clerical garb.

    But that doesn't excuse those who ignored warnings in the corporate arena.

    My point: Religious pablum was offered the American people in order to let corporate and bureaucratic bunglers off the hook.

    Apparently it worked.

    And then we had Columbia.


    Parent

    Btw (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:24:23 PM EST
    I know Krauthammer is not a liberal

    Parent
    I would think (5.00 / 3) (#10)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 07:47:27 AM EST
    What would you think if Obama were to preside over a funeral of one of the victims who died in the defective GM vehicles, saying that he or she had "touched the face of God"?

    It would be a stupid comment that made no sense, since the GM vehicles have nothing to do with flying.

    I guess you would have a problem with the really good and thoughtful speech he gave today at the 70th anniversary commemoration of D-Day too, that he ended with:

    May God bless our veterans and all who served with them, including those who rest here in eternal peace. And may God bless all who serve today for the peace and security of our world.

    But maybe the best part was this (something we should ALL think about):

    They left home barely more than boys and returned home heroes. But to their great credit, that is not how this generation carried itself. After the war, some put away their medals, kept humble about their service, and moved on. Some, carrying shrapnel and scars, found that they couldn't. Many, like my grandfather, who served in Patton's Army, lived a quiet life, trading one uniform and set of responsibilities for another -- teacher, doctor, engineer, Dad. Our country made sure millions of them earned a college education, opening opportunity on an unprecedented scale. They married those sweethearts and bought new homes and raised families and built businesses, lifting up the greatest middle class the world has ever known. And through it all, they were inspired, I suspect, by memories of fallen brothers -- memories that drove them to live their lives each day as best they possibly could.

    Whenever the world makes you cynical -- stop and think of these men.



    Parent
    Would it have been so hard to say (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:54:58 AM EST
    something like this, instead?

    May we hold dear our veterans and all who served with them, including those for whom this is their final resting place.  And may we offer our enduring gratitude to all who serve now and in the future for the peace and security of our world.

    In some ways, asking the people to hold veterans in their hearts and minds is a more active and direct agency than beseeching a Higher Power to do it for us.

    And I think that while it's easy to ask what the harm is in invoking a higher being that so many people do believe in, I think it's important to appreciate that all the God talk at official events makes it easier for those who want their God to be an inescapable and intrinsic part of our government.  Crosses in the public square, the 10 commandments in the lobbies of public buildings, prayers being said before legislative sessions, using religious beliefs to control legislation itself.

    There are ways to comfort and support and lift people up that don't require religious imagery and rhetoric; maybe Obama should spend some time in the Hallmark store for some examples.


    Parent

    Of course (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:22:43 AM EST
    He was making these comments at a national cemetery, which are filled with crosses and Stars of David headstones.

    Is that a problem?

    Parent

    You've missed the point. (3.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:40:50 AM EST
    Not much else to say, really.

     

    Parent

    I would respond (none / 0) (#30)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:24:38 AM EST
    But I have to go plant a loaded hand gun in a toy department

    Parent
    While you're there, ... (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:58:29 PM EST
    ... why don't you stash that hand grenade I gave you somewhere in housewares?

    Parent
    And if (none / 0) (#19)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:59:25 AM EST
    our fearless leader invoked "Allah" instead of "God"?

    Oy!

    Parent

    So you're saying (none / 0) (#17)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:57:53 AM EST
    that people sent into the atmosphere, or space, with a faulty vehicle get to see the face of God, but people sold a defective car going to their deaths don't.

    Makes sense Padre.

    Parent

    Charmingly simplistic idea isn't it? (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:19:16 AM EST
    That god would have a face

    Parent
    How come he only shows me his a$$? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:21:40 AM EST
    Alright, I'm going to time out now.  I just couldn't resist.

    Parent
    HA (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:22:58 AM EST
    I'm so glad you made that joke because if someone didn't I was going to have to.  And soon.

    Parent
    Well.. (none / 0) (#97)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:36:05 PM EST
    it's a really big, good-looking face.

    Parent
    Um... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:20:33 AM EST
    The poem, from which the "touching the face of God" was written by a pilot about flight - youknow, because when you fly, you are in space, and (if you believe in it), closer to heaven and able to get a bigger and different perspective on the Earth (and in the case of the Challenger) of space.

    So really - it's your obsession with it and comparing it to the GM recalls which make no sense.

    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 2) (#96)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:35:13 PM EST
    It's your refusal to recognize that the use of "God" by a politician is cynical at best.

    If you're so convinced in the rectitude of what you are saying, then you might suggest some use of "God" that would be appropriate for someone killed in a defective automobile.

    Some God, I suppose, that dwells nearer the Earth. An Earthbound God - as opposed to the one reserved for ones killed in a defective airborne vehicle.

    Really - so idiotic.

    Reagan was wrapping himself in God and Country to let his government and corporate friends off the hook.

    And then, not all that long afterwards, we had the Columbia incident. That time, Bush said the victims had "gone home".

    Maybe that would suit you better.
    Victims of defective planes and defective cars can all "go home".

    Better?

    And I do resent you calling what I am writing an "obsession".
    It is an observation.

    One that does not resonate with you.

    So be it.

    Parent

    Let me see (1.00 / 1) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:14:46 PM EST
    Obamacare scandal

    IRS scandal

    VA scandal

    Benghazi scandal

    Trading the worst of the worst terrorists for a deserter scandal...

    GM has acted poorly in managing their company's manufacturing process....

    So let's talk about Reagan.

    Really, people??? Really??

    Excuse me for being on the floor but I am laughing so hard I can't stand up.

    Parent

    A website (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:25:37 PM EST
    that doesn't work is a scandal? LOL. Actually that one shows the failure of conservatism which believes private entities can do things better.

    There is no Benghazi scandal. Issa has been lying to you guys all along but carry on your jihad on that one.

    IRS scandal? Never was one. People got letters but people get letters all the time from the IRS. Just because a bunch of screaming babies who are ripping people off like Jenny Beth Martin are screaming they got a letter does not make a scandal.

    If 90's era scandal mongering is all you have then as a party you are completely bankrupt of ideas and solutions for the average American.

    Parent

    Well dug... (1.00 / 1) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:40:01 PM EST
    Your premiums will go down

    You can keep your doctor if you want

    You can keep your hospital if you want

    Obama lied and Rice lied and Americans died

    The trail now goes all the way to the WH. It was done for political reasons.

    And say what???? All those happened within the past 6 years.

    Sad, Ga. Sad..

    Now, condemn the men speaking truth to power and the circle of hypocrisy will be complete.

    And I laugh to keep from crying.

    Parent

    Conservatives (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:56:57 PM EST
    don't care about any of that stuff and most rational people know it.

    You're hoping for a Jimmy Carter type win into the White House in 2016 is all that is. You are going to yell and have a temper tantrum until the voters GIVE YOU YOUR CANDY. How did that work out for you in the 90's? Not too well as I remember because you got the disastrous Bush in the White House. Carry on with the jihad, Jim.

    Buck up and quit whining. Sheesh.

    Parent

    Sorry, GA, But none of that (none / 0) (#157)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:06:14 PM EST
    makes sense.

    Parent
    Of course (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:30:33 PM EST
    it wouldn't. When a child is in the middle of a temper tantrum they never understand.

    Parent
    Duhwooshunal! (none / 0) (#146)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:44:39 PM EST
    The (5.00 / 1) (#133)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:22:10 PM EST
    floor is a perfect place for you.

    Parent
    Yes indeed (1.00 / 1) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:41:56 PM EST
    down here with all my Leftie friends.

    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#144)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:44:31 PM EST
    you like to get on the floor and roll around with your leftie friends.

    Lovely.

    Parent

    A mental image (5.00 / 2) (#149)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:53:09 PM EST
    I would rather have been spared

    Parent
    Yeah, man (none / 0) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:11:01 PM EST
    If you think I'm going to click that link (5.00 / 2) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 06:23:17 PM EST
    Seek help

    Parent
    Ah come on, Capt (none / 0) (#176)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:01:44 PM EST
    Trust me.

    Parent
    Try (none / 0) (#201)
    by lentinel on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 05:15:10 AM EST
    rolling around in sewage with righties instead.
    You would feel more at home.

    Trust me.

    Parent

    Not sure why you pretend to be ... (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:36:00 PM EST
    ... "laughing".

    Is it the same reason you're confusing the word "scandal" with "fairytale"?

    Parent

    Stick around Yman the Parser (none / 0) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:40:35 PM EST
    the best is yet to come.

    ;-)

    Parent

    That's setting the bar ... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Yman on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:44:35 PM EST
    ... pretty d@mn low ...

    Parent
    I like (none / 0) (#98)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:39:16 PM EST
    Gone to the corn field

    Parent
    obsession? really? (5.00 / 2) (#99)
    by sj on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:39:32 PM EST
    You had to go there? You are behaving just like your dissenters do.

    Just stop.

    Parent

    No - it IS an obsession (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:27:45 PM EST
    We've had comments over two threads about Reagan's speech after the Challenger incident - a speech given only hours after a horrible tragedy that they whole nation witnessed - a tragedy that happened almost thirty years ago - because he spoke a line from a poem about flight that talked about God and then we keep comparing that to the GM recall.  WTF does that have to do with anything??  (Answer:  they are nothing alike).

    There certainly are reprehensible things to hold against Reagan, and the fear of the closing wall between church and state is real, but when something like this is brought up and harangued upon, it just makes the commenter lose all credibility.

    Unfortunately in this case, you are behaving like another well-known antangonist around here who like to argue for argument's sake if you can't see that.

    Move on.

    Parent

    Maybe, so (none / 0) (#153)
    by sj on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:59:37 PM EST
    No - it IS an obsession
    but if so, then your obsession matches lentinel's. My need to keep religion out of government doesn't go as far as lentinel's. Nor does my need to excuse or demand that it be included go as far as yours. For me it boils down to this comment:
    And if (none / 0) (#19)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 07:59:25 AM MDT

    our fearless leader invoked "Allah" instead of "God"?

    Personally, although I loathed Reagan, I was moved by that speech. But there is no getting around the fact that it was largely because the lapsed Catholic in me was nudged into an active mode for a few minutes: he chose imagery that resonated with my religious upbringing.

    Having said that, and also stipulating that it seems to me that the overarching conversation has drifted sideways a great deal (GM?), I am sure there is poetry and words of beauty and compassion and sorrow that have nothing to do with anyone's view of God. And both Presidents have speech writers who should have been able to find them.

    Just my opinion. And consistent with pretty much everything I've said on the matter of church and state. I didn't drag it out to argue with you. Which may be unlike another well known antagonist around here who likes to argue for argument's sake.

    Parent

    You could almost call him (none / 0) (#101)
    by jondee on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:41:45 PM EST
    the great prosecutor in the sky. Only more vindictive and careerist.

    Parent
    Bean Counter (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 04:32:41 PM EST
    You sound like a robot.  Human beings have a thing called poetry..

    Sometimes it is read at funerals.

    The death of astronaut in a historic mission is generally treated differently in our society than someone in a car crash.

    In any case most humans try to comfort bereaved mourners, and things like prayer and god often enter the picture. Getting angry and screaming at bereaved about getting even, or finding who is responsible for the death is not usually very comforting at memorial services, and not typically the go to method in our society for memorial services.

    High Flight

    "Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
    And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
    Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
    of sun-split clouds, -- and done a hundred things
    You have not dreamed of -- wheeled and soared and swung
    High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
    I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
    My eager craft through footless halls of air....

    Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue
    I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace.
    Where never lark, or even eagle flew --
    And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
    The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
    - Put out my hand, and touched the face of God."

    The poet, John Gillespie Magee, Jr. died at the age of 19 in a mid-air collision..

    Magee was killed at the age of 19, while flying Spitfire coded VZ-H, serial number AD291. He had taken off with other members of 412 Squadron from RAF Wellingore (near Navenby & RAF Digby, and about three miles northwest of RAF Cranwell), which has now reverted to agriculture. The aircraft was involved in a mid-air collision with an Airspeed Oxford trainer from Cranwell, flown by Leading Aircraftman Ernest Aubrey Griffin. The two aircraft collided just below the cloud base at about 1,400 feet AGL, at 11:30, over the hamlet of Roxholme, which lies between RAF Cranwell and RAF Digby, in Lincolnshire.[2] Magee was descending at high speed through a break in the clouds with three other aircraft.


    Parent
    Why the sudden turn to Obama? (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:58:07 PM EST
    Because (none / 0) (#147)
    by lentinel on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:48:42 PM EST
    he is the current president.

    Parent
    Someone pod posted the other day (none / 0) (#13)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:51:05 AM EST
    About Cougars.  Just saw a post from a friend about how his kids school was closed and the kids sent home early because of Cougars sighted near the school.  Which led of course to a whole strong of Cougar jokes on the comments

    Oh (none / 0) (#14)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:51:28 AM EST
    In LA

    Parent
    I suspect we will see more than a few (none / 0) (#55)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 12:42:43 PM EST
    this summer as they come down for water and follow their prey that has also come in closer. Gotta watch out for the rattlers also. And bears . . . :P

    Parent
    So Cal is in serious drought (none / 0) (#59)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:18:41 PM EST
    Actually the entire west coast is. Even in Portland where we had a typical rainy winter and everything is bursting green and flowers for our extended spring season. But it was a bit warmer and the snow pack in the mountains that feed the reservoirs all summer is lower than usual.

    Driving around LA with my daughter a month ago we kept seeing huge fountains just feeding the air with evaporated and wasted water. Then there are the pools that waste water. No restrictions on these seems nuts to me. I bet the animal shelters don't really want cougars either.

    Parent

    That may why the beautiful fountain at the Music (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:00:28 PM EST
    Center isn't running.

    Parent
    The Getty's weren't running (none / 0) (#79)
    by ZtoA on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:00:14 PM EST
    at least not the Meier ones and there was a notice about the drought posted at the fountains. But LMU, my daughter's alma mater, had their's going full blast.

    Parent
    Interesting. Per wiki, (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:21:44 PM EST
    The Music Center architects did not want any sculpture in the plaza. But the Lipschitz and Graham are stunning.

    Parent
    Up where I am the fountains (none / 0) (#89)
    by nycstray on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:18:16 PM EST
    have been off for months. I don't think pools waste all that much water and a lot of people use covers (solar), so evaporation would be minimal. It's the lawns that are the huge sucking water waste, but most counties are offering rebates to replace them with drought friendly landscaping and irrigation.

    Cougars are usually caught and re-released. Main thing is for folks not to let their pets out in the yards without supervision. Bad enough you have to watch out for hawks and others with little dogs, the cougars can pretty much down any dog . . .

    Parent

    Funny (none / 0) (#61)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 01:28:17 PM EST
    Breaking: (none / 0) (#69)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:17:31 PM EST
    Not going to (none / 0) (#88)
    by sj on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:14:28 PM EST
    Fox News so here is a different link. My, but 18 years can pass quickly.

    Parent
    The photo of the three females does not flatter (none / 0) (#90)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:19:27 PM EST
    Ms Griffith.

    Parent
    That's true (none / 0) (#95)
    by sj on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:35:08 PM EST
    But then it doesn't flatter famous beauties Eva Longeria and Catherine Zeta-Jones, either. That first photograph is pretty flattering, though.

    Truthfully I was shocked at how many links I tried that had really unflattering pictures. It makes you wonder why magazine editors decided to skip the photoshopping step.

    Parent

    California Chrome (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 02:41:14 PM EST
    3-5

    Chromie is my Homie

    A cautionary tale: (none / 0) (#197)
    by oculus on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 10:36:09 PM EST
    Snoop Dogg on guns (none / 0) (#104)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 03:55:54 PM EST
    I think this is cool

    In the vid a few seconds in you hear him respond to a reporters question about how this is very different from the old Dogg.  The answer is one of the best most honest I have ever heard.

    Look (none / 0) (#125)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 05:05:48 PM EST
    this whole Bergdahl thing has caused a complete mental breakdown with conservatives. When you look at it from that standpoint...

    Has anybody done (none / 0) (#170)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 07:44:31 PM EST
    data entry or political clipboarding or hosted a house party for a candidate? I got this Ready For Hillary email asking me to sign up for one of these. I'm thinking about hosting a house party because I can do a mean awesome cocktail party. Any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks in advance!

    If you serve THC infused candy (5.00 / 2) (#181)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:24:39 PM EST
    Make sure the portions are small.   And no green corduroy.

    Parent
    Are we sure... (none / 0) (#184)
    by unitron on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:31:32 PM EST
    ...that Green Corduroy isn't actually a name for a type of LSD?

    I mean there was Purple Haze, Windowpane, and the infamous Woodstock "brown acid".

    Also, by now there must be a least one band using that as a name and probably 3 more planning to use it as an album title.

    Parent

    Baa waa was (none / 0) (#187)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:42:34 PM EST
    Too bad you don't live closer or you could come. I'm assuming that you wouldn't want to make a long drive for just some appetizers even though they are very good.

    Parent
    I would have to bring the dogs (none / 0) (#190)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:46:29 PM EST
    No problem (none / 0) (#202)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Jun 07, 2014 at 07:05:25 AM EST
    they could play with my dogs. But since you're in Arkansas I'm sure that they're probably be plenty in your area.

    Parent
    Actually I would love to (none / 0) (#191)
    by CaptHowdy on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:50:42 PM EST
    But I don't think it's possible

    Parent
    Considering your location... (5.00 / 2) (#185)
    by unitron on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:32:57 PM EST
    ...you're going to need to indicate on the invitations whether it's going to be open carry or not.

    Parent
    Not (none / 0) (#189)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 09:44:01 PM EST
    Speaking of which we had two murders near me today. Just wait. I'm sure it's going to get worse.

    Anybody I know that's a ready for hillary supporter probably doesn't carry anyway.

    Parent

    More and more (none / 0) (#173)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 06, 2014 at 08:55:10 PM EST
    information coming out about Bergdahl. Apparently his father spoke at the 2010 Idaho GOP convention. I have a feeling this is only going to get worse.

    Rolling Stone seems to have the whole story.