Wednesday Night Open Thread

Tonight is the gran finale of El Capo 3. It began March 25, and I have watched all 56 episodes at least once. I'm totally not okay with it ending tonight.

The past few weeks have not been as compelling as the first weeks, but I can't tell if that's because without subtitles, I'm missing too much, or whether they decided to cut the number of episodes after filming and did a less than stellar editing job. I suspect it's the latter, but of course have no way to know. [More...]

La Viuda Negra on Unimas ended Sunday night. The plot actually picked up steam the past week (it started getting boring when Sugar died a few weeks earlier.) I was not looking forward to the ending, knowing La Viuda (Griselda Blanca) would not be riding off into a glorious sunset like La Reina Del Sur. But it was a very satisfying ending that wrapped up all the story lines. The cops didn't get Griselda, even though they ambushed her and her long time aide and lead sicario (assassin) Richie on their wedding day. Instead, Griselda and Richie carried out a mutual suicide pact, and hugged each other, while holding a gun pointed at the others heart, said their vows and then pulled the triggers.

Richie's stepson Silvio, who had become a traitor to the group, went out in a ball of flames. DEA Agent Norm Jones who stalked Griselda for 20 plus years and fell in love with her, ended up giving his life to save her and her son Michael from the once-good Colombian cop Garcia who turned into a psychopath, kidnapping and torturing Griselda's son Michael and setting up land mines in the desert as a bizarre trap for Griselda. Jones took the hit from the land mine so Griselda and Michael could escape. Michael then returned some days later as Garcia was being feted for ending the brutal reign of Griselda Blanco, and riding by Garcia on a motorcycle, pumped Garcia full of bullets. (That's actually how Griselda died in real life.) Michael ends up in jail, but as he says when Jones' son comes to visit him, to taunt him that he'll die in the electric chair, "Don't bet on it, my last name is Blanco." (The first half of the season revolved around Griselda escaping from death row in New York.)

Of course, none of these things ever happened to the real Griselda Blanco -- she never tried to kidnap JFK's son and was never on death row, let alone escape from it. So the show certainly wasn't a retelling of her life. For weeks I couldn't figure out how they were going to get anyone to care about this cold, emotionless and not particularly physically attractive character, but by the end, they pulled it off. In addition to making her extremely loyal and a very doting mother, they ended up giving her a heart -- a big one. And most of the people she killed had betrayed her.

So after tonight, only El Senor De Los Cielos 2 is left. As I expected, it's much, much darker than the first season. Aurelio Casillas (aka Amado Carrillo Fuentes in real life) has lost all remaining redeeming qualities (and there weren't a lot to begin with in this drama) and morphed into a meglomaniac. He kills at the slightest provocation. His brother Chacorta is just as bad and has never had a single redeeming trait. His son Heriberto is a mess. The politicians, cops and prosecutors, both U.S. and Mexican, are all crooked. Come to think of it, there isn't a single sympathetic character on the show any more, including the women, except perhaps for young Victor, who is still only 8 years old or so. Under Chacorta's tutelage, that will probably change quickly.

On to El Capo 3. This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    Enjoy Jeralyn! (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by ruffian on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 09:16:31 PM EST
    56 episodes is quite a commitment. It must be really addictive . And I didn't even mean that as a drug pun.

    Had the great joy... (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:31:57 AM EST
    of seeing a performance by Eva Yerbabuena the other night.  Flamenco is such an astonishing art form.  It's like stripping your soul bare on stage.  A sample of Eva Yerbabuena.

    Wish I could have been (none / 0) (#22)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:20:45 AM EST
    I have never seen flamenco live.

    World Cup logo . . . (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:11:25 AM EST
    Am I the only one that thinks it looks like a 'face palm'?

    That it does. But better a face palm ... (none / 0) (#9)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:57:57 AM EST
    ... than a face plant.



    Rick Perry's at it again. This time he compares (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Angel on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:27:40 AM EST
    homosexuality to alcoholism.  The guy's an idiot.

    Idea (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:40:15 AM EST
    The San Francisco Chronicle reports that in response to a question about it, Perry said he did not know whether the therapy worked.

    I suggest a series oh human trials of ignorance aversion therapy.  Texas would be the logical place to start.


    Dear Mom and Dad, (5.00 / 5) (#52)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:10:06 AM EST
    Greetings from Camp Straight, Muleshoe, TX.    Miss you and, also, Rover.  The kids are pretty nice.  Yesterday, a nasty counselor showed me pictures of a man without a shirt on, and he beat me until I turned the page.    Then a nice counselor came in and showed me a picture of a woman.  If I did not turn the page, he gave me ice cream.  I learned a lot here--I like ice cream better.  The Counselors said I lived up to the Republicans best hopes, whatever that means.   Can I come home now, please?       Your son, Dakota

    Clockwork Orange.. (5.00 / 3) (#55)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:15:30 AM EST
    PS (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:50:07 AM EST
    Later the counselor showed me the correct way to work out.  I didnt know you were supposed to be naked, did you?  I like him.  He gives me cocoa that makes me very sleepy.

    I truly (none / 0) (#29)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:45:16 AM EST
    feel sorry for any noninsane people who reside in Texas. But we have plenty of crazy here in GA too.

    I accept your sympathy. (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Angel on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:02:50 AM EST
    Or is it pity?  :)

    I love Texas (none / 0) (#49)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:02:32 AM EST
    It isn't pity.  I'm just sorry that it isn't blue yet.  I was at in-laws at Christmas and they are idiot viral Conservatives.  I said over wine, "Yup, if Texas goes Blue we could very well see our last Republican President"

    My BIL reads a lot, and he knew what I was talking about.  My SIL just repeats propaganda mostly.  She looked at him to see what he would say and when he said nothing she looked panicked I tell you.


    Well, Tracy (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by KeysDan on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:17:12 AM EST
    Texas is looking pretty good when you look at this Republican candidate who says it is OK in OK and the nation to stone gays to death.  

    And yet (none / 0) (#31)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:53:55 AM EST
    People are basically good - here are a few examples.

    Unfortunately (5.00 / 2) (#36)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:06:34 AM EST
    as of late the ugly and the hateful seem to be hogging the microphone.

    Yes, there are good people. I see them every day, deal with them every day but they're unfortunately not everybody either.


    I agree, but you can be basically a good (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:09:11 PM EST
    person and still express your political opinions in a way that drives others to distraction.

    In FL, my contacts with people that are not a self-selected group are mainly at the dog park. We are a very diverse group and it is usually general conversation about the news, dogs, kids, home repairs, health, etc. The righties in the group find a way to work politics in to just about every topic. I either bite my tongue to pieces trying not to argue, or I can walk the dogs to the other end and just look like I am a loner for the day. They know how I feel, and deliberately try to provoke me.

    Sure, I can avoid the conversations by walking away, but it does bring a little bit of dread to what in purple Colorado was a completely pleasurable experience.


    Basically good.. (4.00 / 2) (#135)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:42:45 PM EST
    yes..and if they need to seen as guilty until proven innocent, then shackled, tazed, and tossed into a dehumanizing hellhole to bring out that goodness, by all means that's what we need to do.

    For people's own good.


    Would you not admit that (none / 0) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:58:47 AM EST
    The reason those pics are on the internet machine is because they are not typical?  I move turtles out if the road almost every day.  I can tell you categorically most people do not.

    Maybe (none / 0) (#38)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:13:33 AM EST
    But I still think a vast majority of people are good - even if they drive us crazy.

    I'm just really tired of focusing on the negative all the time, which is what happens on a blog like this that discusses politics and has mostly partisans from one side.  While I enjoy reading and commenting here, and find many of the topics and comments of interest, it does get draining and tiring focusing on every negative minutae of those with whom we disagree, just as it gets tiring watching people bend over backwards to justify the actions of those with whom they agree.

    Politics has become a hateful sport, and I, for one, am trying to step back and see the bigger picture and not look at people as "Democrat = smart and good person" and "Republican = evil, stupid person".  There's so much more to people than that and my goal is to try and see more of the good than just "TEA PARTY!!!!"


    Admirable goal I guess (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:16:27 AM EST
    But in my experience ignoring reality is not an effective course of action

    It's not ignoring reality (none / 0) (#41)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:19:19 AM EST
    But it becomes toxic when all you do is focus on how bad the other guy is and worry about when he's coming to eat your children, instead of trying to find common ground and the good in people.

    That's exactly what has happened with Fox News and MSNBC - they've become tribal to the point of crazy - and now made their most ardent followers the same.


    Hate to break it to you (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:36:11 AM EST
    But MSNBC did not make me ardent.  The attempts to turn our country into a theocracy to turn our schools into bible schools to roll back civil rights and voting rights remake the country in the image of 1950, THAT made me ardent.

    Common ground?  Show me some and I am happy to stand on it.  

    Till then, I won't allow it.  Over my dead body.  My rights will be taken from my cold dead hands.   How's that for ardent?


    It's ardent (none / 0) (#47)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:53:25 AM EST
    You can't (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:55:38 AM EST
    find common ground with tea partiers. These are people who want to blow the whole country up. One got elected to our school board here and she and two other tea partiers made up a lie about the school superintendent and cost the tax payers hundreds of thousands of dollars. They're now all three going to jail but they sure caused a lot of people pain and money on their way to serving their prison sentences.

    You find common ground (5.00 / 2) (#64)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:39:55 AM EST
    with people who believe in Tea Party and conservative ideas every day - at the grocery store, at social gatherings, in your neighborhood etc.  Not every conversation has to be about politics (remember when it used to be impolite to discuss politics in public??)

    You can find common ground about many things -  sports, about hobbies, about the weather, and yes, even in politics if people would act like grownups and actually listen to one another. It's to the point that, just as the minority Tea Party wing will denounce anything said by a Democrat or liberal, the Dems and liberals are just as guilty. Ted Cruz could say the sky is blue, and liberal pundits and commenters would wet themselves trying to explain away why he's crazy or stupid on this issue (and yes, I do think he has mostly crazy ideas, but you are all smart enough to understand my example). Yes, we can disagree on policy - but instead of asking "why" people feel the way they do, and engage in an actual conversation, it just becomes so much easier for many just to dismiss those people and call them names (much like 5 year olds do), "Crazy," "Republican" (or worse).

    Sometimes you need to talk to and read people with whom you disagree. Only looking at the world through the eyes of those you agree gives you a very narrow vision of the world.  And while there will always be crazy, vocal people on both ends of the spectrum, maybe the solution is that you don't have to engage and provoke them just so you can justify your indignation when they give you a thoroughly predictable response.


    You apparently (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:50:31 AM EST
    don't know many tea partiers. The minute they start talking it's about how the country is going downhill. How there are no morals anymore. Even in polite conversation they gay bash. There is no safe subject with them. Even talking about their grandchildren they start to talk about there should be vouchers for them to go a private religious school. Or they start talking about how they hate miinorities and how minorities don't have "American" values.

    Ted Cruz is crazy. There is no "agree to disagree with them" and that is the problem. They will go on and on and on. At parties they will corner people and start screaming at them. Yes, I have had this happen at one of my parties.

    I have tried to have a reasonable discussion with tea partiers. It cannot be had. They don't want a reasonable discussion, they want to define the terms of the debate i.e. you only can use right wing sites to back up your statement. They don't want a discussion. They want an amen corner. And that's fine but I refuse to keep banging my head on the wall. When you've got 2/3 of the GOP believing that we actually found WMDs in Iraq there is no discussion to be had.


    Here's a solution (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:51:45 AM EST
    Walk away from the conversation then.

    Yes (none / 0) (#77)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:07:35 AM EST
    that is what I do.

    jbindc: "You can find common ground about many things -  sports, about hobbies, about the weather, and yes, even in politics if people would act like grownups and actually listen to one another. It's to the point that, just as the minority Tea Party wing will denounce anything said by a Democrat or liberal, the Dems and liberals are just as guilty."

    At this point, if we keep buying into your Beltway media-infused false equivalencies in the face of all evidence to the contrary, this is how we're all going to end up.

    Sorry to disappoint you, but we're no longer able to find common political ground with the far-right by comparing grocery lists with our neighbors in the local supermarket checkout line, or inquiring with them about where to find the best auto repair shop in your area, and hey, how about those L.A. Kings, eh, nudge, nudge, wink, wink? Not that we were ever going to in the first place. It's way too late for that, I'm afraid.

    The GOP is in the weeds, held in a death grip by the far-right, who've has made it crystal clear that they're not interested in political compromise, and have issued ultimatums to that effect to the moderate members of their own party. It's either their way, or the highway.

    America's far-right is literally life as an imitation of art, the mindless and unhinged anger of Network's Howard Beale made flesh and blood. You can't reason with them, because sometimes they're right and you're wrong, while other times you're wrong and they're right.

    Show me just one moderate Republican in Washington who's actually, really stood up to the crackpots in their own party in any meaningful way recently, and then lived to talk about it. I don't mean merely in a rhetorical sense, a la Speaker John Boehner's silly "Are you kidding me?" presser after the House GOP-provoked government shutdown. That was nothing more than political vaudeville, performed for the TV cameras. From a policy standpoint, it was totally meaningless.

    I mean, show me a Republican in Washington who's actually running counter to their ideologically whacked-out party members in public or on the House or Senate floor, the way Sen. Margaret Chase Smith (R-ME) did back in 1950, when she first denounced her vile GOP colleague Joe McCarthy in her famous "Declaration of Conscience" speech, and then followed those words up with deeds by crossing the aisle repeatedly to join Democrats in opposition to her own party's race down the right-wing rabbit hole.

    Why is this particular Congress the most rabidly partisan, yet also the most useless and singularly unaccomplished, in well over a century? Because whatever few moderate Republicans are left have been bludgeoned by the far-right to within an inch of their political lives. They've been cowed so completely into submission by rabid Teabots that they're now almost completely tamed and submissive, afraid to break ranks with the whackjobs and join their more sane Democratic colleagues to get things done for the good of the country.

    I mean, Jesus H. Christ, jb, they could've even collectively grow a pair to help pass meaningful firearms background check legislation in the wake of the Sandy Hook tragedy, with the image of 20 slaughtered first-graders as an incentive! That bill died in the Senate not by majority vote, but because of a phuquing GOP filibuster orchestrated by the far-right NRA!

    Unlike you, apparently, I've actually worked in various legislative bodies, including on Capitol Hill. And from a couple decades of experience interacting with politicians of all stripes, I can tell you that the world you're describing started dying off politically during the 1980s.

    Within the GOP, that body really started rotting when Richard Nixon ran for president and was elected in 1968. It accelerated when Ronald Reagan then attempted to unseat Nixon's unfortunate successor, the eminently decent Gerald Ford, as the 1976 Republican presidential nominee.

    And for that, you can thank the rancid likes of the late H.R. Haldeman, Lee Atwater and their acolytes, who began poisoning the atmosphere in which bipartisan dialogue must take place with their increasingly toxic rhetoric and disreputable political tactics. And for what, exactly -- simply to win a phuquing election?

    Sad to say, your friends in your hometown have since turned electioneering into a personally lucrative quasi-industry that now operates 24/7/365, and it's effectively replaced governance as the standing order of the day in Washington.

    And, equally sad to say, Republican voters aren't helping matters any, because they're not nominating that nice woman who's politely engaged you in banal conversation, while the two of you wait in line for tickets to the 3:00 p.m. Saturday matinee at the local octoplex.

    No, they're choosing total ignoramics like George W. Bush, Sarah Palin, Tom Corbett, Michele Bachmann and Louie Gohmert -- and dare I say it? Yes, I dare, Ronald Reagan -- as their candidates and elected officials, people who endeavor to rule, yet really know next to nothing about the art of effective governance, and don't care to learn it as part of any on-the-job training.

    Instead, all-American he-men and she-women that they are, their decision making rests upon their "gut instincts," which I think has become a right-wing political euphemism for a bowel movement. And hey, it's also totally rad and cool to be the king and queen and say whatever's on your mind to anyone without apology or consequence, and to surround yourself with a whole passel of ingratiating suck-ups who await only your beck and call to serve your every whim, all in exchange for a taxpayer-funded paycheck.

    And Republican voters also fall repeatedly for smooth-talking cynics like Dick Cheney, Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Darryl Issa, Rick Scott and Scott Walker -- and until just the other day, Eric Cantor -- who, ugly and shocking truth be known to you, are really out only for themselves.

    Now, these are the Republicans I fear, because much like their Democratic soul brothers Terry McAuliffe, Max Baucus and Andrew Cuomo, they're nothing but unabashed corporatists at heart, who've correctly pegged their base of voters as nothing more than rubes and hicks to be first riled up, then hitched to their wagons to take their masters to wherever it is they wish to go. And these are the guys who are primarily responsible for the mess this country's become politically.

    These cynics see themselves first and foremost as "movers and shakers." They know all the right buzzwords that constitute red meat for their respective audiences, who for the most part are frustrated and angry because not only are they NOT getting ahead and making it, they're instead seeing themselves slide a$$-first right out of the American Dream and back down toward the federal poverty line.

    Accordingly, these audiences have developed an increasingly bloodthirsty appetite for a pound of political flesh, as retribution for their pain and suffering. And good cynics that these politicos are, they always have a multitude of sacrificial lambs to offer them, and for any occasion.

    Muslims, who'll impose Sharia law on us all if we don't stop 'em. Latinos, both illegal and legal, who are pouring across the border to suck our tax dollars dry and re-annex California to Mexico. Black women on welfare, driving Cadillacs and having babies instead of getting a job. Our own spoiled rotten kids, who don't know what it's like to work hard, and who don't respect their elders. Gay men and lesbians, who are lying in wait to seduce our own spoiled rotten kids into a sinful and hedonistic lifestyle. And of course, liberal Democrats, who support all of these ingrates and degenerates as a means of ultimately imposing godless socialism upon us all.

    Not that electing any more cynics to office is going to help people any, but that's really not the point here. Because when they've finally run their course, as political cynics inevitably do, there's always a cushy executive appointment to a position that's often converted from civil service to patronage, or a well-lubed job as a lobbyist on K Street in D.C. -- or L Street in Sacramento, Bishop Street in Honolulu, etc., etc. -- awaiting them.

    This is the political America in which I presently live and work, jb. It's not Levittown or Suburbank, it's not the Mall of America or the Galleria, it's not a 4th of July fireworks show and concert at the Rose Bowl or on the National Mall, it's not the 7th inning stretch at Wrigley Field or Yankee Stadium, and it's most certainly not found on a sound stage set from "The West Wing," "Scandal" or "House of Cards."

    Rather, Washington has become a professional snipe hunt, where everyone who knows someone can make a very nice living by chasing each other's tails and occasionally lifting them to kiss what's underneath. It's the unfortunate result of 40-plus years of self-serving cynicism and steadily corrosive public rhetoric, by which those aforementioned "movers and shakers" have set people against one another to fight for scraps under the table, while they themselves continue to gorge, burp and fart.

    Political polarization has enabled a massive transfer of wealth and assets up the food chain to those who can hardly eat and live any better than they already do, and who've in turn showed their appreciation for their good fortune by abandoning those unfortunate souls who truly need help, because hey, if you're poor it's your own damned fault.

    It's led to significant and very hurtful cuts to public education at all levels, which has gradually dumbed down the electorate that in turn re-elects the same cynics who are causing so much of the damage. It has further saddled the average young college graduate with tens of thousands of dollars in debt from student loans, before he or she even enters the workforce.

    Small wonder we're seeing a near-exponential growth in the number of multi-generational households, when our kids work full-time and still can't afford even the most basic of mortgages for a starter home.

    I don't claim to have all the answers, or even any answers at this point. What I can tell you is that for the most part, I'm through talking to the other side (and a number of people on my own side, as well), because I've reached out repeatedly and dialogued until I'm phuquing blue in the face.

    The next time I talk to Republicans, hopefully it'll be to discuss the terms of their surrender. Which I'm afraid probably isn't going to happen any time soon, as long as feckless middle-of-the-roaders like yourself keep deluding each other that the reasonable GOP of the Eisenhower years somehow still exists today, somewhere. And if it doesn't, well, both sides are to blame for the present political impass.

    How nice it must be for you folks in D.C. -- which is now the richest metropolitan area per capita in the entire country, thanks to all the self-aggrandizement and self-dealing that's taken place over the years -- to kumbaya with one another and buy into each other's own faerie tales.

    No doubt, it's because the self-manufactured malarkey you're peddling is so much easier for you to swallow, than is the present hardcore political reality you've created that's daily slapping the rest of us rubes and hicks square across the face, out here in the hinterlands and sticks.



    Of course you can... (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:00:40 AM EST
    there's children and aging parents and food and sports and TV, books and movies.

    I don't know about you, but I don't wear a big blue "D" on my forehead, or wrap a headband stamped "LIBERAL" around my head.  I'm the woman buying groceries and chatting with the cashier about the weather, or the traffic.  I'm the woman checking out books at the library and talking with the person who just asked me if I had ever read a book by a particular author.  I talk to my co-workers about my family and who watched the season finale of True Detective, about the awful traffic this morning, and what people did over the weekend.

    The other day, a woman in the grocery store stopped and asked whether I thought it would be better to take pretzels to an office party or chips.  I have no idea what her political affiliation is and she has no idea about mine.

    No, there probably isn't common ground with conservatives - Tea Party or garden-variety - on things like education and the economy and religion and taxes and same-sex marriage and abortion and gun rights, but I don't subject every person I encounter in my day to a litmus test before I can or will talk to them.  If the cashier says something political that I don't agree with, I may have a response, or I may decide that it's not worth my time or the rise in my blood pressure to bother.

    Our lives are filled with common ground; you just have to be willing to see it.


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:10:39 AM EST
    my experience has been that everything is political with tea partiers.

    No, I don't wear a blue D on my forehead and if I did somebody would probably use it as a reason to shoot me here in Ga.

    Maybe in MD they are more moderate and you're not really talking about the same thing jbindc is. She's talking about having a conversation. You're more talking about just exchanging pleasantries.


    I think she means politically (none / 0) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:02:27 AM EST
    Which is the whole point (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:08:29 AM EST
    Not everything, not every conversation has to be about politics.

    To say you can't find common ground with someone because of how they feel about abortion or gay marriage is missing the forest for the trees and just further entrenching you in your own little tribe.

    Get away from the political news stories, walk away from the computer and liberal blogs and the people who upset you on Facebook.  Go do something else.  You'd be amazed at what you have in common with people of all stripes.


    What did someone say once (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:13:00 AM EST
    About Everything being at stake when it came to politics? Nobody can do much about the weather today so yeah, we can chat about it.  But some of us would like to do something about global warming.  And if you really really want to do something about global warming a teahadist has a nice gun they would like you to meet.

    Come on, you are being deliberately obtuse right now.


    Yep (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:17:28 AM EST
    even when discussing the weather, the tea partiers will start talking about global warming especially if it's cold.

    Then smile politely (none / 0) (#96)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:33:13 AM EST
    and walk away. Maybe get a new social set if they are that crazy.  Not every single person in the South is completely off their rocker.

    And while you keep trying to state that I don't know Tea Partiers, or what it's like to live among them - maybe you're right, but I did live in Texas for 6 years, so it's not like I am ignorant to what is going on.  I, too have Facebook friends and relatives who are conservative and spout crazy stuff.  Know what I do?  Block their posts.  Then I can still see pictures of their kids and such, but I don't have to see their constant nonsense. I'm about to do the same with some of my more liberal friends too.

    Honestly, I don't post here as much because even some of the nonsense spouted around here is tiring sometimes.  Broaden your horizons. Seriously, it isn't that hard.


    We do, but you do realize (5.00 / 2) (#98)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:37:19 AM EST
    We do this alone?  We are very alone on this road.  You don't live in the environment we do.  Why do you think we are on here gaining some energy from the company of each other.  It is very difficult daily to live where we do.

    No not (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:44:40 AM EST
    everybody is off their rocket but the tea partiers have a huge microphone. So they are massively annoying and are convinced of their own self righteousness because they believe God is on their side and they doing all this for God much like the nuts in the middle east.

    The problem is that I try not to socialize with tea partiers. If I know someone is a tea partier I will avoid them or if forced in a situation with them just say have a nice day and go on my way. But unfortunately there are a lot of times here in the south you are forced into situations with them not knowing until it is too late. The schools, at church, anywhere. Unfortunately sometimes there is no escape.

    You really don't know me if you think I need to broaden my horizons. I am exposed to all the stuff you like to promote daily here in GA. How can I not be? And I have gotten rid of a lot of the conspiracy theorists on facebook. They really don't want any input anyway so they are hidexed. They want to be in a bubble so they can remain in one for all i care.


    Well (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:20:32 AM EST
    that's kind of my point. Even if you try to avoid politics which I generally do they turn the discussion to politics.

    They don't live in crazy land like we do (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:26:37 AM EST
    They don't know what it's like to constantly be probed to see if that sunny smile and unwrinkled brow was the first indicator that you my relaxed friend live on the wrong side of the Stand Your Ground tracks :)

    Maybe it's (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:30:22 AM EST
    a red state blue state thing. Tea partiers in blue states lose and tea partiers in red states win. Therefore they are even more certain of their righteousness.

    Tea partiers in Red States rule (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:31:47 AM EST
    And you and I are not cool kids, and they take every opportunity to let us know.

    I usually start the day (4.00 / 3) (#203)
    by christinep on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:27:36 PM EST
    by looking at the beauty of the mountains to the west, saying a morning prayer of thanks, taking a couple mile walk with doggy Celeste (meeting & greeting other neighbors & fellow dog-loving buddies along the way -- artists, teachers, students, lawyers, and all the walks of the world), returning home for breakfast & coffee, and maybe a swim in later morning ....  

    Yes, life is wonderful, jbindc.  And, then, sometimes we are blessed with that indescribable thrill of being alive when the sun rises and the green is so green and the sky is bluer than blue.  And, you want to be silent, breathing slowly.  

    It is about savoring.

    From time to time, some have said that I wear rose-colored glasses.  (Actually, a favorite pair of sunglasses was rose-tinted :) )  I do believe that people can & should reach beyond what they know ... always.  I believe very much in common ground ... and, tend to be drawn to the art of politics and governing in the best sense where there is the give & take of negotiation, mutual respect, resolution.  

    But, you know, it takes two to tango in government and in most places.  It is one thing to strive for the integrity of one's position(s); it is a thing entirely different to shout/grasp/hold onto one's own position with a conditioned stubbornness so entrapping that one will not allow another's belief to come anywhere near them.  While I also think that the numbers of people so extreme in their response to different philosophy is rather small ... there is evidence to find a pernicious destructive component of American society today in what-has-been-called the TeaParty.  That evidence is there in the mind-bending statements--written and shouted--that they have issued since their formal formation.  Recently, it may have morphed; but, the nurturers in the broader party realize how and where it has morphed.  

    Please try to hear Ga6th ... her observations inform her, and there has been a genuineness and accuracy in a number of her statements.  

    Recognizing that the Tea Party is alive and well--in one form or another--doesn't take away from the joy of life and living.  In many ways, awareness of the negative isolation that such TeaPot-type xenophobes, homophobes and all the other "phobes" would lead to is a first step in countering with the positive message of what the government can do, should do, and will do when we do recognize that there is almost always common ground to be found.


    I know she meant common political (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:32:07 PM EST
    ground - or at least it occurred to me that she did.

    Even though, taken as a whole, Maryland is considered a blue state, in reality, there are only three jurisdictions here that are solidly blue, and they carry the state because they are the most heavily populated areas (and, as Republicans love to point out, they also have the largest African-American populations).  

    I live in a predominantly Republican area, with pockets of crazy liberals like me.  I wouldn't say there's a lot of Tea Party in my area, but just because someone doesn't identify as Tea Party doesn't mean their ideas and beliefs are all that different from TP views.  

    Maybe in your and GA's neck of the woods people out and about in the community are constantly pushing their point of view and constantly haranguing people with their conservative doctrine, or looking for any opening in the most benign conversation to go off on a Tea Party rant, but that isn't my experience here, and I just frankly have a hard time picturing it.

    Most of the time, I'm in the minority politically, which doesn't bother me, but i don't find myself being lit up because I have liberal views.  I see the occasional garbage on FB, and sometimes I respond and sometimes I just call it out for the BS it is - it depends on how much I care about the person who posted it.  Or how much time I want to spend debunking the bunk.

    I seriously don't know how you all can stand it - not just the constant braying of winger nonsense - and if it was just talk, that would be one thing, but you all end up with winger legislation, too, stuff that affects people's lives in real ways.  Bad ways.

    I'm pretty sure they see us as being the inflexible ones with whom there is no finding common ground, probably the reason they keep trying to convert you.  

    Maybe when things get really insane, you all just need to toss out a few key phrases that will make the veins in their foreheads explode - I'm sure you know what they are!  What would you say is the nuclear-level, aneurysm-inducing phrase these days?


    You have sections of your State sure (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:43:35 PM EST
    But who does your state elect for representation in National elections Anne.  Now look at our states, and take a look at how long they've been that crazy?  Gradually worsening after civil rights legislation/ completely rabid because the black guy is living in the fancy house.

    You have no clue how bad they hate that man or how crazy they have gotten, and it's all about his skin and his Northern Kenyanish thing he has going on.

    Come down here for a few weeks and stay with me, bring your accent too, whoo Lord...well they are already sure I'm Satan so of course I would have a Yankee visiting :). You have no idea, but Ga6 does, Angel does, Captain Howdy does...we are not making up how difficult our social situations way too often are.

    The black guy, he's really challenging who these people believe themselves to be and every stereotype that they love.


    I, too, live in Maryland (5.00 / 4) (#143)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    In wildly "red" Western Maryland, where I can count on the fingers of one hand those near here who, besides us, are anywhere near the liberal end of the political spectrum.
    But we can socialize with these neighbors, have pleasant relationships with them, bring them casseroles when there is a funeral or someone is sick (and they do the same for us).  
    Perhaps we are fortunate in that nobody in this area, at least, tries to shove Tea Party politics down our throats.  
    I do know a couple of Tea Party types, and when they start to spout the Fox News talking points of the day, I am generally able to change the subject.  If they persist, I excuse myself and leave or go do something else.  And occasionally, since they also tend to use the Bible as an excuse for some of their beliefs, I am able to bring up several Biblical quotes that can put them in their place.  Hey, I didn't teach Church School for 30 years without knowing what the Bible says quite well.  And if you want you see their heads explode, quoting the Bible at them is a good way, because they really have no answer for this.    ;-)

    Btw (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:07:44 PM EST
    I can also quote the bible in ways that drive them up the walI know a good deal about the good book.

    You said you know a couple of TP types.  Try to imagine if you knew a couple who were NOT TP types.  This is the world we are trying to describe.


    The fact is (none / 0) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:01:48 PM EST
    Anyone anywhere who supports the national Republican Party supports the tea party.  I don't care how good their intentions are?  They are one and the same.  They are indistinguishable.  Anyone who doesn't believe that is in denial.

    The national Republican Party is the tea party.  


    You know what? (5.00 / 2) (#168)
    by sj on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:20:15 PM EST
    I agree with you.
    Anyone anywhere who supports the national Republican Party supports the tea party.
    But by the same token, anyone who supports the Democratic party supports Neoliberalism. A misnomer if there ever was one, since it isn't liberal at all.
    American scholar Robert W. McChesney notes that the term neoliberalism, which he defines as "capitalism with the gloves off"...
    Traditional Republicans are as party-less as my bleeding-heart-liberal-and-former-Dem-activist self is.

    Or maybe I'm in worse position: I don't see a huge difference between neoliberalism and the GOP of my youth. When I first registered to vote there was agreement between me and my GOP friends and neighbors on the problems of the day. Drastic disagreement on solutions, but general agreement on the problems.

    And the problem wasn't that Muslims are going to bring Sharia law.


    This (none / 0) (#172)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:25:20 PM EST
    people out and about in the community are constantly pushing their point of view and constantly haranguing people with their conservative doctrine, or looking for any opening in the most benign conversation to go off on a Tea Party rant, but that isn't my experience here, and I just frankly have a hard time picturing it.

    What you said is what goes on and that is apparently why those of you who do not live in the south do not understand.


    True some of the time (none / 0) (#83)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:18:01 AM EST
    I have a shipping company I use often. I know their names and they know mine. We chat and joke and are very friendly. One day the owner and I were talking about college graduations we were going to and he had a kid graduating form UofO and started raging that Michelle Obama was the commencement speaker because he hated her. I said, pleasantly, "Well it's not a political event and it might be very historically interesting". He replied with doubling down on offensive - never noticing that I might not be absolutely enjoying his hate. I realized that any subject might set him off into his T rants.  

    I don't wear a D either (none / 0) (#97)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:36:52 AM EST
    Quite a number of years ago (in my 40s) I practiced martial arts for quite a while - reached brown belt (had a 6 hour test along with new black belts). My sempai was a rabid right winger. Sempai is an assigned big brother who also trains upcoming belts. Somehow he just knew I was not a rabid right winger and he used to torment me politically since I could not talk back to him in that context. Not that I ever would. he was huge and a loose cannon (he got demoted because of his temper) and did regular throws on me. He got demoted after throwing me on the wooden floor and then throwing himself onto me pro wrestling style, and pinning me to the floor for way too long. Not sure what he would have done if I had sewed a big D onto my gi.

    It wasn't... (none / 0) (#106)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:56:12 AM EST
    the Cobra Kai Dojo, was it ZtoA? ;)

    Ha! Kdog (none / 0) (#145)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:04:07 PM EST
    No, no karate kid here. It was an Okinawan dojo in the NW. It was goju karate - famous because Dwigit from The Office practiced it - very very poorly. Women were actively discouraged, which made me all the more determined. The 6 hour brown/black belt testing was in Seattle - no water breaks and grueling. We did get a half hour 'rest' kneeling on our knees (black belt and brown belt candidates - around 30) while the sensai talked. He sat me right in the front and then talked about Japanese sword making (which I already knew about) and how they tested the blades on prisoners in graphic detail. He kept looking at me and I knew he wanted to see me uncomfortable with the subject which made me even more stubborn. I got my brown belt but had to quit soon after because of injuries to my hands.

    Learn T'ai Chi! (none / 0) (#153)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:22:58 PM EST
    I may Squeaky (none / 0) (#158)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:33:11 PM EST
    At that time I thought it was just too "nice". Aikido, judo, karate and weapons with sweat and running barefoot on wooden floors and a broken rib, with many injuries to joints seems more fun to me. I'm paying for some of that fun now, tho my hands completely recovered. I always loved "push hands" since I could do it with much larger opponents. Tai chi also has push hands. It might be a great way to get my balance back after hip surgery.

    Push Hands (none / 0) (#166)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:12:28 PM EST
    Yes the push hands is really fun... well, super difficult and long term project..

    Also there is fencing which is really fun..

    but push hands and fencing are two years or so down the road from starting and learning the form...  so great patience is required.


    I didn't get the impression (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:12:16 AM EST
    that jb was trying to find common ground with the rabid Tea Partiers, but rather with regular Republicans who have not succumbed to the Tea Party lunacy.
    And yes, there are such Republicans.  I have friends who are Republican but not Tea Party types, and I can talk to them and find some points of agreement, or at least "let us agree to disagree on this," and I don't hear any Fox News or Rush Limbaugh talking points from them.

    Some of my best friends... (5.00 / 3) (#110)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:02:22 PM EST
    and even family are conservative republicans.  The office manager at my job is far-right gun-loving bordering on a Nazi sympathizer and we get along really well.  I call him a fascist, he calls me a commie, and we laugh about it.

    I talk most of my politics here so as not to let it possibly ruin everyday in the flesh encounters...I think I'm with jb on this one, there is common ground to be found with any and all outside of the topics of politics and religion.  Life's too short to take politics too seriously...it's not what is important in life, not by a long shot.

    And somebody who can't manage a conversation without injecting politics is not somebody I'd wanna hang out with anyway...walk away, let it go is right.


    I have decided (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:16:00 PM EST
    that must be a red state/blue state thing. In blue states you can do that. In red states they would be pointing a gun at you calling you a commie and ready to shoot you.

    I don't know... (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:22:45 PM EST
    sounds a little hyperbolic to me GA...and that's ok, I can bring the hyperbole with the best of them;)  

    Liberals are not being summarily executed on the street...they may be ostracized & ridiculed like conservatives are in NYC and Hollywood, but it's not Shia v. Sunni up in here, lets be real.  

    It's the death wail of a dying breed...and they're going out kicking and screaming, to be sure.  The big picture is we are winning the culture war, if it isn't already won.


    Well (none / 0) (#127)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:27:57 PM EST
    I agree and that is part of the problem. There are just more of them down here kicking and screaming and wailing. In a blue state there more consigned to the reality of the situation I would think than the ones who reside in a red state bubble. I saw an article comparing them to the McGovern people back in 1972 who were shocked that McGovern lost the presidential race. I think that is the most apt description of them I have seen. They can't believe that anybody doesn't think exactly like they do and if anybody does think differently they apparently need to be eliminated.

    City dwellers are (none / 0) (#130)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:33:19 PM EST
    Blissfully clueless.  Give up.

    That's why I live in the suburbs (none / 0) (#134)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:41:43 PM EST
    And the hilarious part (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:43:58 PM EST
    Is you think that's different

    Shrug (none / 0) (#138)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:45:24 PM EST
    You lived in cities.  But now you have great wisdom that the rest of us do not, I guess.

    Good for you.


    That's exactly correct (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:48:15 PM EST
    I lived in cities my whole adult life.  Now I don't.  Come and live where I live for a while then talk to me about common ground.

    You guys don't have the vaguest clue what's happening out here in flyover country


    Me thinks... (none / 0) (#141)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:48:30 PM EST
    your environs are warping your perspective a wee bit as well.  The reality likely lies somewhere in the middle.

    The Weeks are from Missi-f*ckin'-ssippi for god's sake...there is hope for the deep south and it lies with the unbrainwashed youth!

    And like Vonnegut said, the psychopathic Type A's will always seek positions of power...be they liberal or conservative.  By you they're tea-party loons, by me they are wealthy liberal elitist loons...either way hold on to your rights and your wallet cuz they comin' for both, though the rights they are after are different.  The fundamental flaw of our Republic man...anybody who would make a good politician/public servant is smart enough to want nothing to do with the job.


    I'm sorry (none / 0) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:52:01 PM EST
    You don't know what you are talking about

    Fair enough... (none / 0) (#149)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:12:00 PM EST
    I'm never quite sure what I'm talking about myself...and the more I know the less I understand.

    I have lived in the deep south, but in a college town...so I guess that doesn't really count.  But boy did I meet some Bubbas!  And at heart I think they were good people, just a product of their environment and ignorance.

    Sh*t as recent as 1980 it wasn't safe for a black person to be in my old neighborhood in Queens NY after sundown...it's so much better now, the deep south is just gonna be the last to the party...not surprising.  But you're gonna get there...I'm fairly confident of that.  It's always darkest before the dawn.

    Our much bigger issue than the tea-partiers or culture war issues are the economic ones...and in regards to those issues, it makes no difference if your state is red or blue, 99% is getting f*cked.  But the culture war is all but over...simple demographics.


    Where in the Deep South? (none / 0) (#151)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:20:42 PM EST
    Just curious.  Yeah  I have friends in college towns.  Trust me it's a different world.  I go there to get away.  I'm doing it later this week.

    I don't disagree about the economics.  the problem is here they gleefully vote against their own interests and have been doing it for decades.


    Panhandle baby... (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:26:53 PM EST
    Tallahassee FLA aka Alabama South.  But I used to travel around to all the hick towns in AL and GA and FL...never felt any hate, just friendly curiousity about the yankee who loved his cuss words.

    The freakyist daytrip was to a dog track somewhere in AL...weird f8ckin' scene but it was fun.  I'd bet 10 bucks on a dog and see the odds drop on the tote right before my eyes! And this drug store lunch counter in Lumpkin, GA...best damn pecan pie I ever had.  That name I'll never forget...Lumpkin.


    Kdog (none / 0) (#176)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:36:12 PM EST
    our govenor had created a debtor's prison for people going to the hospital with no insurance. Does that happen in NY? I mean Cuomo for all his problems at least seems to think that the residents of NY State should not die of benign neglect like Nathan Deal does. So sick people can't go the hopsital, poor people can't get insurance and people deathly ill and sick and in need of medical care have to bug the media to cover their story so that it can embarrass the state enough or the medical community enough to do something.

    It actually happens (none / 0) (#183)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:48:30 PM EST
    It's not just Georgia.

    Many of them "blue" states

    And more

    Roughly a third of U.S. states today jail people for not paying off their debts, from court-related fines and fees to credit card and car loans, according to the American Civil Liberties Union. Such practices contravene a 1983 United States Supreme Court ruling that they violate the Constitutions's Equal Protection Clause.

    Some states apply "poverty penalties," such as late fees, payment plan fees and interest, when people are unable to pay all their debts at once. Alabama charges a 30 percent collection fee, for instance, while Florida allows private debt collectors to add a 40 percent surcharge on the original debt. Some Florida counties also use so-called collection courts, where debtors can be jailed but have no right to a public defender. In North Carolina, people are charged for using a public defender, so poor defendants who can't afford such costs may be forced to forgo legal counsel.

    I wish (none / 0) (#185)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:53:34 PM EST
    the article said which ones. NY does not seem to be one though.

    Some of those states though people can now get Medicaid which makes it a moot point for a lot of people. Here in Georgia they don't have that option.


    I think the point is that sometimes (none / 0) (#139)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:48:08 PM EST
    it is impossible to avoid. Even here in Portland Oregon. This is a very liberal/progressive city and even here if some casual T person wants to go on a rant they just do. Smile, do business, avoid that business, be nice, whatever. They certainly know that their rant will be offensive to most people here, but when they are in a position of power (like my sempai or during a business transaction) they do so with glee. I'm thankful that it is infrequent here.

    Well, I live in purple / red state (none / 0) (#119)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:17:49 PM EST
    What's your explanation for that?

    You live (none / 0) (#124)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:24:43 PM EST
    in a blue state in an even bluer area. I live in a district that is 70/30 GOP. Don't you think that makes a difference on who is around here?

    A Kdog lives in a blue area in a blue state.  


    I live in an area (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:07:39 PM EST
    that is at least 80% GOP.  See my previous comment.
    The people in this area are considered backward rednecks by much of the rest of Maryland.
    And yet, I can talk to them and have a polite relationship with them.

    You live in Maryland, correct? (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:17:19 PM EST
    Tell you what come HERE to north centeral arkansas and live for a while.  Then we will talk.  

    For the record no one, at least not me, is saying a polite relationship is not possible.  I do it every day.

    That is not the point. The point is they have political views that are antithetical to everything I believe in.  And I'm sorry I just don't believe that the tobacco chewing blatantly racist rednecks here are of the same ilk you find in Maryland.  


    Howdy, they may not be (none / 0) (#175)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:35:23 PM EST
    quite as bad here as they are there, but this area is widely known as, shall I say, the "West Virginia of Maryland" (and they are not referring to the nicer parts of West Virginia, but rather to the parts that have several rusted cars, old refrigerators, etc, in their front yards, not to mention the hunting out of season).
    I was also told, shortly after we moved up here, "Don't you know that it's the hotbed of incest for this state?"
    They my not chew as much tobacco as your neighbors, but they certainly hunt out of season and, yes, they follow many of the stereotypical behaviors you might expect.
    BTW, you should try living in Salt Lake City for while, which we did.  Speaking of conservative viewpoints.  Their political views are way, way on another planet from ours.
    Although I have to say, they were not aggressive about it.  They were so treacly, falsely "sweet," we thought that we were drowning in syrup.    ;-)

    I spent spent several months in Salt Lake (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:47:42 PM EST
    In the 70s at a dance workshop.  Probably a different world then like everywhere else in the 70s.   But I totally get the treacly part.  
    Hotbed of incest for the state is funny.

    Did you ever see the excellent movie Winters Bone?  That takes place and was actually filmed just a few miles from here.  If you ever see it, keep in mind those are THE COOL people.  The ones I would want to hang out with if it has to be with locals


    Yes, I saw it (5.00 / 1) (#198)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:09:14 PM EST
    And I bow to your expertise regarding Redneckville.  ;-)
    Namaste, my brother.

    Winter's Bone (none / 0) (#191)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:00:10 PM EST
    Super great flick...  sorry to hear that those are your neighbors.

    You missed the point (none / 0) (#193)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:02:37 PM EST
    THOSE are the good neighbors

    That was a great movie (none / 0) (#194)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:03:50 PM EST
    You know (none / 0) (#179)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:39:47 PM EST
    it used to be like that here. You would run into one of these people and if you walked off they would quit talking. I don't know what has happened: the collapse of culture war or what but I think they are like cornered rats, scared and have nothing to lose at this point by being threatening and obnoxious at the same time.

    I live in Virginia - a purple / red state (2.00 / 1) (#125)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:26:55 PM EST
    My area may be blue, but not all of it (know how many Romney signs I saw on my way to work in 2012?  A lot).

    Do you know anything about Virginia politics?



    And I saw (none / 0) (#128)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:30:16 PM EST
    probably more than you did. Right?

    Ohhhh...I get it now: this is a contest. (5.00 / 1) (#167)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:17:41 PM EST
    Now that you've asserted that you saw more Ronmney signs in your area than someone else, I've realized that this is a contest to you.

    A contest to see who lives in the worst, most Tea-Party-afflicted state.

    Okay, tell you what: here's your tiara, and your sash, and your bouquet.  Sorry the tiara is missing most of the pasted-on rhinestones, the sash is tattered and the flowers are mostly dead, but when you win this contest, you're supposed to carry accessories that reflect the level of your misery.

    You win!

    Nobody has it as bad as you do.  No one has the right to speak to what's happening where they live, with the people they know and encounter, because you have it the worst.  

    You're clearly more interested in wallowing in your misery than hearing from others what their experience is, or according them one iota of credibility.  It's a version of the other game that's being played too much here: "no, that's not what you said, and it's not what you meant - I know and I will tell you what you said and what it means."

    So, have a grand old time on your victory walk.  Just think, if you get pricked by the thorns on the flower stems, you can even boast that you bled for your prize!

    No one will be able to beat that!


    Truth (5.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:29:06 PM EST
    be told I really don't think anybody but Howdy and Military Tracy understand that.

    The other day a friend of mine who works for Moms Demand action went out to lunch. She was talking about all she was doing. The guys behind us were apparently listening to everything we said and one of the guys stood up and flashed his concealed weapon at her as a veiled threat. Does this happen in your area?


    Nope (none / 0) (#174)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:31:51 PM EST
    you are completely missing the point. The point is you cannot reach a middle ground with these people. You can't even say more than a hello. Heck, you can't even have a conversation in a restaurant without some freakazoid paranoid gun nut listening in or some whack job giving you lecture. There is no agree to disagree with them. And that was the point of the whole thread.

    No, it wasn't (none / 0) (#177)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:38:42 PM EST
    The whole point of this thread was that maybe we should take a step back and look at the bigger picture and realize that there is good in most people and we are more alike overall than just our politics.  You don't have to agree with them politically, but frankly, at this point, I have a really hard time believing that every where you go and every person you encounter in every situation in your day wants to blast you with Tea Party rhetoric. I think you see things in people that you want to see sometimes.  And maybe you even unconsciously want to provoke them by saying something that you know is going to let them offer their opinion.

    I work in the political epicenter of the country, and even here, people don't talk all politics, all the time.  Even when you go out with people who WORK for politicos - they actually find other things to talk about. I have managed to go weeks without discussing politics except with those close to me.


    Allow me to elaborate (5.00 / 1) (#187)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:55:27 PM EST
    When I go anyplace with a tv FOX  News is on.  If you are lucky.  If not it's the 700 Club.  
    I hear the N word 10 tomes a day.  Usually in reference to the president.  

    I could go on but it's pointless,  I should just walk away I guess.


    I didn't (none / 0) (#181)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:45:18 PM EST
    say EVERY PERSON but unfortunately these people are radical and will start crap even in a group even if they don't know that what kind of politics everybody  has because they are in this bubble where they believe they are the majority and everybody thinks like them. Like Anne said above they use every opportunity to lecture people about how ignorant the majority of Americans are or how the majority is all dependent on the government or something. If it's one on one you usually can get away from them but I've been stuck in groups where they started and I couldn't leave.

    And it's not even just the people. We have tea party government down here in GA which makes the problem even worse. Imagine if Ken Cuchinnelli had won the governor's race there in Virginia?


    This is what we have been trying to tell you (none / 0) (#184)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:51:51 PM EST
    have a really hard time believing that every where you go and every person you encounter in every situation in your day wants to blast you with Tea Party rhetoric.

    You don't get it.


    Really? (none / 0) (#186)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:54:24 PM EST
    People just randomly come up to you in the store or in a restaurant and give you the manifesto?

    Sorry - I don't believe you.


    I said that (5.00 / 3) (#189)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:57:34 PM EST
    You don't get it.

    It happened to me in walmart a couple of hours ago. In line.  Guy starts rippin on Obama.  

    I don't really give a rats ass if you believe it or not.


    Yep (5.00 / 3) (#197)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:08:06 PM EST
    it's the same here. You go to pick up your car and you get a lecture about Obama. You're standing in line at Wal-Mart and they start talking, the grocery store wherever. Only someone who lives in these tea party infested areas would understand.

    So, one person? (none / 0) (#192)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:00:25 PM EST

    We're on the same page.

    I don't really gave a rat's a$$ what you think either.


    How many (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:04:47 PM EST
    Would it take to meet your standard for one trip to walmart?


    For fvcks sake.  I'm outta here.


    Truism (none / 0) (#188)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:56:47 PM EST
    Humans are tribal, to be part of a group is in our genes. I think it has to do with survival.

    That being said it is a truism that everyone can get along if they  are in a situation where what they have in common is why they are in a given situation.

    That is hard if you do not blend in, for instance if you are a person of color, or have a religious affiliation that affects your dress and wind up somewhere where no one looks or dresses like you. People even have coded body language which denotes the group that they belong to, being a peg in a square hole does not make for social niceties.

    I imagine that the built in politics in DC allows for many people to get along even if they are from opposing political POV's as long as the people can pass for being in the same class.

    I find it hard to believe that an working class person of color would be welcome in some of the more tony establishments in DC.

    But if there were a disaster, many would find commonality despite class, race and religious differences. During normal times not so much.


    This (none / 0) (#190)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:59:27 PM EST
    I find it hard to believe that an working class person of color would be welcome in some of the more tony establishments in DC.

    Would be true of white tourists or middle class white folk who live in the burbs as well.


    Yes (none / 0) (#195)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:04:12 PM EST
    No question about it.  People do not get along when they are not from the same group, unless the nexus requires commonality.

    IOW supermarket does not necessarily cut it, but if the gap tolerable people will make nice.

    Train does cut it, usually because you cannot leave. That is why some do not take the train and ride in limos instead.


    The Apocolypse has come (none / 0) (#111)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:03:29 PM EST
    kdog agrees with me!

    Thanks (none / 0) (#144)
    by sj on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:02:22 PM EST
    I was feeling grumpy. That just turned me right around.

    Bookmark it! (none / 0) (#147)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:11:19 PM EST
    We will all be better off.

    Not so much (1.00 / 1) (#154)
    by sj on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:25:02 PM EST
    Bookmark it! (none / 0) (#147)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:11:19 PM MDT

    We will all be better off.

    Doubtless you will continue to post obnoxious comments like this. You won't be able to help yourself. Your comment #147 being Exhibit A (because I know you like visual aids).

    Revisit Happy link Please! (none / 0) (#169)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:21:01 PM EST
    Anything to lighten you up..  and tone down the nasty..

    If it works why not use it?


    Poor squeaky (none / 0) (#171)
    by sj on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:22:47 PM EST
    She has no happy link. The rest of us suffer for your pain.

    But he didn't say you'd burn (none / 0) (#131)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:36:20 PM EST
    in Hell for it.

    That means he's a social liberal.


    ha! (none / 0) (#133)
    by sj on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:37:58 PM EST
    Detroit's $816 Million Grand Bargain (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:16:19 AM EST
    The big news out of Detroit yesterday was the announcement that the Big Three automakers have pledged $26 million towards the "grand bargain" to save the DIA's collection.  I may not have been that impressed with their legal papers, but the museum's PR game is beyond reproach.  As Matt Helms and Mark Stryker point out, the grand bargain didn't grow at all with this announcement; instead, this represents part of the $100 million the DIA had already committed to raise towards the deal.  But it's very shrewd of them to trumpet this as a great success, and to create a sense of inevitability about the whole thing.  Well played.

    Art Law Blog

    "Tim's Vermeer" (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:34:20 AM EST
    Just reading about this, and thought it might be of interest to some of you:

    Tim Jenison, a Texas based inventor, attempts to solve one of the greatest mysteries in all art: How did 17th century Dutch Master Johannes Vermeer ("Girl with a Pearl Earring") manage to paint so photo-realistically -- 150 years before the invention of photography? The epic research project Jenison embarks on to test his theory is as extraordinary as what he discovers.

    Spanning eight years, Jenison's adventure takes him to Delft, Holland, where Vermeer painted his masterpieces, on a pilgrimage to the North coast of Yorkshire to meet artist David Hockney, and even to Buckingham Palace to see a Vermeer masterpiece in the collection of the Queen.

    heard about this... (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:05:42 AM EST
    He can now do a passable forgery of Vermeer. On second thought, not passable. To do so he would have to use a canvas from the correct time period, know about Vermeer's notations on the back and sides, and be able to properly stress/age the paint and canvas. He would have to get a little dirt from another painting dated appropriately and apply it to the surface. He'd have to get a provenance. But I guess he was not trying for a forgery (not a copy).

    David Hockney wrote a book years ago about the historic use of lenses in art. It broke many art historian's minds and many were outraged. For working artists it was a no-brainer. Artists have always used the latest technologies. The best artists use technology as simply a tool and not the object or subject. Everyone already knew Vermeer used lenses as a tool. Of course artists like Caravaggio never left written records of their studio techniques (which art historians depend on to validate ideas). Artist studios were, at the time, only several generations after guilds where studio materials and techniques were proprietary secrets, not written down, and passed along to apprentices directly.  That model of studio is still practiced today. There were many secrets - an artist could not go to an "art store" any buy tools, paints, mediums and varnishes. They were all made in the studio by apprentices.

    Same for Vermeer. Not only do the pigments have to be ground into a paste and then ground into drying oil (linseed here) they are very different in behavior - oil absorption, fugitive colors, particle size, any additives, drying times, sinking in, compatibility with each other.  Then there is the underpainting - the dead colors - a monochromatic underpainting where the values are worked out. Artists can absolutely see small gradations in light (opposed to what this video says) and it is worked out in this stage. Color applied over that. Sometimes Vermeer removed the top layer a bit to reveal the underpainting to add depth. Then he added some special varnish to tie the surface together and add more depth. In his early works he used the very expensive ultra marine (lapis) as the underpainting.

    I found Tim's "achievement" to be almost offensive, as if an artist's works could be reduced to the use of one tool only. One of very many. His work was facilitated by all his tools, as all artists are with theirs.  I would be interested to see Tim's "Vermeer" in person, I can almost guarantee he did not capture the paint quality of the master and is a time consuming, expensive, mere show of a real painting.


    Yes (none / 0) (#86)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:20:56 AM EST
    To make a Vermeer you would have to be...   drumroll please...


    This film or idea, is a big yawn for me... just did not want to diss the whole thing and dump on Anne's comment for fear of being accused of hating her.. haha


    I don't feel like I dumped on Anne's comnet (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:25:28 AM EST
    She never said she thought it was a good work. Just thinks it's interesting, which I agree with.

    I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by sj on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:09:36 PM EST
    you did either. Nor did you post an rabid comment about photography and its history before laughing maniacally. Although said maniacal laugher did at first say "the movie sounds interesting nonetheless". Right before s/he said it sounded like a big yawn.

    In any case, I thought your comments were pretty interesting.


    Yes (none / 0) (#100)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:42:54 AM EST
    it is interesting!

    Sort of Bogus Question (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:13:50 AM EST
    How did 17th century Dutch Master Johannes Vermeer ("Girl with a Pearl Earring") manage to paint so photo-realistically -- 150 years before the invention of photography?

    Cameras existed in the ancient greek days,,  the invention of photography had little to do with the camera but the ability to fix an image onto a substrate (paper, tin)... that happened in 1841 or 2..

    and the theory of Vermeer using optics has been around for a long time..  

    Giambattista della Porta is said to have perfected camera obscura. He described it as having a convex lens in later editions of his Magia Naturalis (1558-1589), the popularity of which helped spread knowledge of it. He compared the shape of the human eye to the lens in his camera obscura, and provided an easily understandable example of how light could bring images into the eye. One chapter in the Conte Algarotti's Saggio sopra Pittura (1764) is dedicated to the use of a camera ottica ("optic chamber") in painting.[12]

    The 17th century Dutch Masters, such as Johannes Vermeer, were known for their magnificent attention to detail. It has been widely speculated that they made use of such a camera, but the extent of their use by artists at this period remains a matter of considerable controversy, recently revived by the Hockney-Falco thesis.

    The movie sounds interesting nonetheless..


    Dealers Eye, or Lie? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:48:01 AM EST
    When angry collectors started suing Knoedler & Company [estab 1846 shuttered 2011] ] for selling dozens of multimillion-dollar forgeries, the gallery's former president, Ann Freedman, insisted that she and her colleagues had had no reason to think that any of the paintings were counterfeit.

    "If Ann Freedman had any questions about these works, she and her husband would not have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in them," her lawyer, Nicholas A. Gravante Jr., said of the paintings attributed to modern masters like Robert Motherwell, Mark Rothko and Jackson Pollock.

    Now, newly released documents in a continuing civil case show that at least one of the works bought in 2000 by Ms. Freedman herself contained a prominent clue that something was awry. The artist's signature was spelled incorrectly: Pollok instead of Pollock.

    The "Pollok," a 12-inch-by-18 inch drip painting in Pollock's classic style, was dated 1949. One of 40 works supplied by Ms. Rosales to Knoedler, it was sold directly to the Freedmans for $280,000 in 2000, according to gallery records.


    Ha! (none / 0) (#87)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:22:22 AM EST
    The signature itself should have been a screaming siren and blinking red light.

    Yes (none / 0) (#99)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:41:54 AM EST
    Friedman has already sued someone for Defamation because they were laughing out loud (in writing) about her claim that she had no idea about the forgeries..

    Rosales and her friends are taking the fall, while the big money apparently goes free..

    Three men were indicted Monday in the massive art scam that placed dozens of fake modern masters on the market and took down one of America's oldest art galleries. The 11-count indictment in Manhattan provided new details into how the forgeries were made, even while the forger himself has disappeared.

    Chinese artist Pei Shen-Qian, 75, was charged for his part in the $33 million art forgery scheme. He crafted the "rediscovered" masterworks by the likes of Jackson Pollock, Sam Francis, Willem de Kooning, Mark Rothko and others. He worked out of his home in Queens, but has since fled, possibly to China. Qian is accused of lying to the FBI.

    Brothers Jesus Angel Bergantinos Diaz, 65, and Jose Carlos Bergantinos Diaz, 58, were arrested last week in Spain. Jose Carlos Bergantinos Diaz was the former boyfriend of Glafira Rosales, the art dealer who supplied the fakes to now-defunct Knoedler & Co., and other galleries. She pleaded guilty to fraud, money laundering and other charges last summer and is cooperating with the FBI.


    Meanwhile Friedman et al. are not totally off the hook, as Rosales' sentencing is on hold as she is cooperating with authorities.... but I would be shocked if any of the big fish get indicted.


    I'm not holding my breath (none / 0) (#148)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:11:46 PM EST
    The "big fish" with the big bucks usually do get off, unfortunately.

    It's a pretty good forgery of his name (none / 0) (#88)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:23:39 AM EST
    except for the spelling of course. Ha!

    Nari Ward's Canned Smiles (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:27:13 AM EST
    If you find yourself on the streets of Harlem's Sugar Hill (a historic neighborhood spanning roughly 145th St to 155th St, from Edgecombe Avenue west to Amsterdam) this afternoon, you may run into artist Nari Ward, who'll be out canvassing local residents, urging them to share a friendly grin as part of his project Sugar Hill Smiles.

    Today is Ward's third day on the job, setting up shop outside grocery stores and subway entrances with a customized cart, inspired by the higgler carts favored by Jamaican street vendors. Ward's inventory is a crate full of empty cans, each emblazoned with a Sugar Hill Smiles label, into which he asks passersby to smile.

    At the bottom of each can, Ward has inserted a mirror. As people peer in, they catch a glimpse of their tentative smiles, and, almost invariably, break into an unrestrained toothy grin (at least, that was artnet News's experience while contributing). It's an extremely short, often bemused interaction. Afterward, Ward uses a hand-turned crank, mounted on the front of the cart, to mechanically seal each can, saving the smile for posterity.

    The piece also allows the community to reclaim the African American stereotype of the smiling minstrel character. For the most part, the public is responding positively. Though some are indifferent, or even skeptical, those who take the time to listen are happy to participate.

    artnet news

    Very cool... (none / 0) (#116)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:15:09 PM EST
    and very needed in NYC...never enough smiles on the street...too many scowls heads down earplugs in.  I'm guilty of this (monkey see, monkey do) but try to be conscious of it and smile more and greet random people more, even if it can freak a NYer out!  

    You know, Dog, (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:21:08 PM EST
    even though I don't live in NYC, we visit very frequently because Daughter Zorba lives there.
    And I have to say that I don't see New Yorkers as being the totally scowling types.  Sure, there are people like that, but there are plenty of people who will return a smile for a smile.
    And there are a surprising number of people who go out of their way to be helpful.  Maybe it's because I'm a gray-haired older woman who uses a cane, but I have had many people who ask me if I need help, such as navigating stairs and such (and yes, there are many handicap-inaccessible places, as there are in many cities;  it can't be helped).
    I find that a smile, or a bit of conversation with your neighbor when you are waiting in line for something, goes a long way.
    At the end of the day, people are just people.  Sure, there are jerks and oblivious or selfish people everywhere.  But I don't think that it's everyone.

    You're right... (none / 0) (#156)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:30:43 PM EST
    it's a stereotype really...but with a grain of truth.  I think we might lead the league in street scowling and fearing/ignoring thy neighbor, but that's not to say it's everybody.  I try to debunk the stereotype but like I said I'm guilty of going with the flow...and the flow generally is "get the f8ck outta my way I got sh*t to do!".  

    I've loved NYC every time I've visited (none / 0) (#159)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:38:43 PM EST
    I don't mind grumpy tho. I find everyone very friendly - much more than Boston. Last time I visited I stayed in a very very cheap hotel which was filled with tourists. They were mostly young and from all over the globe and were great to meet in the elevators or sneaking outside for a smoke (don't do that any more).

    I think my Mexico jaunts... (none / 0) (#160)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:45:12 PM EST
    have skewed my perspective a bit...south of the border it feels like you can't walk past somebody on the sidewalk without them saying "Buenos Dias/Tardes/Noches" and smiling.  

    Noticed the same in the south USA...people talk to strangers more, and I think that's cool.


    My theory is that NYC is so (none / 0) (#170)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:22:01 PM EST
    chock-a-block with people that scowling or avoiding eye contact is how people maintain the illusion of personal space.

    The first time I was in NYC, I was in high school, and I remember feeling utterly panicked at the teeming hordes of people on the sidewalks.  I pasted myself up against a building, feeling a little like I was about to get swept out to sea.

    I am definitely not a city person.


    Nice to visit... (5.00 / 1) (#180)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:43:16 PM EST
    but I wouldn't live in Manhattan or Brooklyn either...I like my ghetto 'burb, best of both worlds...and the rural country upstate is only a couple hours drive away.

    jondee can tell you about the rednecks in upstate NY, they must feel like Capt. and GA do down south...powerless to gain anything resembling representation in government, hopelessly outnumbered statewide.  

    Sh*t I feel that way and I'm surrounded by  liberals in my congressional district, and still we elect liberal clowns to the clown show that is the House of Representatives.  And locally we elect liberals who take big money from connected contractors who dump asbestos, toxic chemicals, banned pesticides and god knows what all around us.  Just got a letter yesterday from the Suffolk County Water Authority assuring us our water is safe...like they'd tell us if it wasn't.

    I know it sounds crazy but Capt. and GA might be lucky...at least their wolves don't hide that they are wolves, they know what they're dealing with.  My wolves wear sheep's clothing and lie through their teeth.


    I know what you're saying, (none / 0) (#202)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 03:24:41 PM EST
    but the daughter used to live in Manhattan, and now lives in Brooklyn.  She has made a nice life for herself there, and appreciates what it has to offer.  More power to her, although I, too, wouldn't want to live there.  (OTOH, I wouldn't want to live in DC, either, but we visit frequently and enjoy the museums, restaurants, and other cultural amenities that DC provides.)
    BTW, one of my brothers used to live in Upstate New York, and I know what you're saying about it, both from visiting there and listening to his stories about life there.

    Yes, I too prefer to (none / 0) (#178)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:39:27 PM EST
    live in the country, but we love to visit the big cities, not just in the US, but all over the world.
    The cities are where the museums, the concerts, the ballets, the great theater, the great restaurants, are.  I wouldn't miss those for the world.
    But, OTOH, I wouldn't want to live there.   ;-)

    You actually (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:12:23 PM EST
    are completely missing the point. The point is we come here to find like minded people and TL really isn't just like minded people. It's a wider range than that. If I wanted to be in a like minded blog situation 24/7 then I would hang out at Dkos. We are around people who are not like minded 24/7 where we live. We don't need to visit a right wing blog to know what they are saying. They are saying it every day all around us.

    Actually GA (none / 0) (#118)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:16:51 PM EST
    YOU are missing the point.

    You are one who constantly complains about the people on FB, the people you talk to IRL and all the crazy that you can't get away from.  You constantly make blanket statements about 50% of the country and call them stupid.

    My suggestion was: find something else in addition to politics because you get very riled up and the only person it affects is you.  

    But you'd rather dismiss me as someone who doesn't know what I'm talking about.



    Are you (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:21:47 PM EST
    now saying that 50% of the country is tea partiers going back on your statement about how they were a minority? I have never said 1/2 the country was stupid. That is what conservatives say. I have said the tea partiers are crazy and that they are the majority of the GOP but that's hardly 1/2 the country.

    Um, I do discuss a lot of things OTHER than politics but you need to realize that TL is a political site.  If I want to talk about other things I go to other sides. Okay?


    This is a political OMG (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:27:37 PM EST
    This isn't the Real Simple blog.  Even though squeaky does know how to make real simple mousse :). But that's an added plus, this is a political blog.

    Hilarious (3.40 / 5) (#112)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:06:01 PM EST
    trying to find the good in people

    Seems like a lot of lip service here jbindc...  as for your history, which is never indicative of your future (a good thing), your comments often bring in GOP sites and conservative viewpoints cloaked in liberal clothing.

    Putting that together with you professed interest in finding the good in people it appears that your mission here (among other things) is to show us at TL that conservatives and wingnuts are not all bad people.

    Who cares? It is not the people but their politics that is on the table, here.

    Nice job Pres Obama (1.00 / 4) (#10)
    by Green26 on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:15:14 AM EST
    as Iraq collapses. Way to pull the troops out, put the US in full retreat, and leave Iraq behind.

    To anyone who comes after me on this comment, be prepared to defend your comment.

    He probably should've thought ... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Yman on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 06:40:33 AM EST
    ... about that before selling the war on false pretenses and invading Iraq to get Saddam.

    Oh, ...

    ... wait ...

    BTW - The majority of the public figured out long ago that the Iraq War was a mistake and a very large majority (78%) supports the withdrawal from Iraq.


    Just confirms (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 07:51:47 AM EST
    my suspicions that conservatives see nothing wrong with lying us into a war and that there is nothing wrong with the Iraq War from the get go. Great reminder of what a disaster the GOP is on foreign policy.

    I'll be the says that to all the webmasters (none / 0) (#19)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:17:39 AM EST

    Dang (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:18:56 AM EST
    This was a response to oculus site violator comment.
    To early.   Need to stop for caffeine

    Translation, please. (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:18:30 AM EST
    Nice job, President Bush! (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Angel on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:23:34 AM EST
    Now, you tell me the thousands of lost lives and untold millions of injuries and trillions of wasted funds were worth that fool's ill-conceived wars.  

    Be prepared to defend your comment.  


    What arrogance allows people to think we (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:36:17 AM EST
    Are the worlds hall monitor? We are the referee.  We are the supervising adult to every regional conflict and civil war?  The Middle East is a violent brutal place it was a thousand years ago and in all likelihood it will be a thousand years from now.

    Here's an idea.  Let's rebuild our own country.  So that if and when the threaten us we can wipe them out and get back to minding our own business.


    Seems like we get involved when (5.00 / 5) (#42)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:24:08 AM EST
    there's something in it for us - like oil.  Or money.

    It's not that I don't wish we could solve all the world's problems, but there's so much that needs doing here that isn't getting done, and the reason we're always given is that "we don't have the money for that."

    The truth is that as a nation sovereign in its own currency, we do have the money, so it all comes down to the choices that are being made, choices that routinely benefit corporations and the wealthy.

    There's a lot of money being made on war, and the fact that you don't need tanks and drones and fighter jets and military bases and munitions and what-not to fight a war on the poverty and hunger and homelessness that exists all over this country means that getting money to fight it is so hard.  Those appropriating funds don't see poor people as investment-worthy - and apparently, that's the metric.  Not basic human decency, but whether someone can make money off it.

    We're happy to send the military off to fight wars, but once they come home, they're no longer assets, they're liabilities.

    What's happening in Iraq shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone.  We got there on lies and manipulation, we left because staying was threatening the job security of members of Congress and the president.  And we all know how important that is, don't we?

    Once again, get the corporate money out of politics, and maybe there's more freedom to establish better priorities; when you're getting campaign financing from the defense industry, or the financial and banking industry, or agribusiness or insurance and pharmaceutical industries, you're not going to be voting against all the things that keep the cash flowing in that direction, not if you want to keep getting your piece of it.

    It's all about the money.


    How? (none / 0) (#26)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:39:52 AM EST
    So that if and when the threaten us we can wipe them out and get back to minding our own business.

    I don't really understand your (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:42:32 AM EST
    Typically terse question.  Are you suggesting we are not the worlds leading experts on wiping people out?  Really?

    Well, hypothetically, had the George W. (none / 0) (#30)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:46:02 AM EST
    Bush admin. realized prior to 9/11/01 the imminent danger facing the U.S., what should they have done to prevent it?

    Not a question answerable in a comment (none / 0) (#32)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:54:27 AM EST
    The comment I was responding to was suggesting we should still have troops in Iraq.  VERY different subject.  
    To your question, I would say Obamas drone policy, while possibly overused, seems to have worked a lot better that putting hundreds of thousands of US kids in a shooting gallery.

    To be clear, I am not as critical of Obamas choices in this area as some others here.  And I would ask if it's a choice between the two which would you choose


    I don't understand why you would even ask me (none / 0) (#43)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:24:58 AM EST
    that question. Also, my hypo had nothing to do w/Pres. Obama's foreign policy.  

    Yes, because my husband being there (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:47:54 AM EST
    Would do what?  Other than making his own children orphans or the children of someone with permanent brain damage or living in a wheel chair for the rest of his life.

    There was nothing more that could be done....NOTHING!  Bush was warned, the country had found a precarious peace through a dictator.  That was how a dictator came to power there.  He was warned that removing Saddam would create a power vacuum in a country socially structured to invite civil war.  Hell, after he created the power vacuum sociologists attempted to help him by understanding that he immediately needed to empower all the moderate mosques by giving them much needed sundries to distribute to the people...and he told them to mind their own fvcking business.  When the noted philosophers and thinkers from their education structure began to be assassinated by religious leaders, he did nothing.  The Bush regime acted like they wanted individuals with those reputations and leadership TO BE ASSASSINATED.  And maybe they did, because those would be the first voices also raised when the country's oil began to be stolen.

    There is nothing more that could be done.  

    If you want our troops there, how can you not be in front of the VA this minute demanding that our new VA patients be receiving the best care in the world.  Man are you ever one scummy pig!!!!!!!!!!!


    Charlie Pierce has an excellent (none / 0) (#51)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:07:22 AM EST
    post up today; I started to post some excerpts, but I couldn't decide which ones, so I will give you his concluding paragraph:

    I have a terrible feeling, based on the McClatchy report, and the reports from the field, that many of the members of the national legislature are presently finding themselves on the Kissinger side in the war for national memory, and that Who-Lost-Iraq? sadly will become an issue in the midterm elections that are upcoming in the fall, and that it will do so before the country has been honest with itself in answering the question, "Why Iraq At All?" It has been almost 40 years since the North Vietnamese Army marched into Saigon, and we haven't truly coped with that development, even though Vietnam is now open for tourism and its peasantry is now making blue jeans and high-definition television. I can't imagine how long it will take for this country to be honest with itself about the fall of Tikrit, or Mosul, or Baghdad.

    The McClatchy article he references can be found here.

    It's all pretty depressing and disheartening.  As things continue to heat up over there, I find my heart in my throat more and more, thinking about my practically-a-baby nephew who's almost through basic training at Parris Island, because I'm not at all sure we're making the best decisions for the right reasons anymore.

    And I don't know how to fix it.


    I know (none / 0) (#53)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:10:45 AM EST
    what the heck are we doing? If only...if only we had not gone in there in the first place.

    Unfortunately that isn't an option (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:21:30 AM EST
    Being honest with the history of it all.  That is what is vitally important.

    I know (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:35:56 AM EST
    you can't undo it. It's just sad that all of this was based on lies.

    It is (none / 0) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:37:04 AM EST
    In my experience it could rile (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:18:35 AM EST
    Up the Conservatives that are already riled, but anyone else doesn't care.

    The nation wasn't invested in the Iraq War in any way that common man and woman feels anything about.  Turns out Iraq didn't  attack us so you can't check the national security box.  Turns out the war didn't pay for itself.  Turns out we didn't bring anyone freedom, even when our troops were there.

    Nobody is invested in it.  Even the military isn't.  We had to stop loss soldiers from leaving when their service agreements were up.  Nobody wanted to be there, certainly nobody wanted to die there.

    It's just going to be a bunch of cranky ole Depends wearers who are already pi$$ed anyhow Anne who care about this :)


    Excerpt from NYT front page (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:33:18 AM EST
    article re Maliki governments request for drones/US air support:

    James M. Dubik, a retired Army lieutenant general who oversaw the training of the Iraqi army during the surge, summed it up this way: "We should fly some of our manned and unmanned aircraft and put advisers into Iraq that can help the Iraqi Army plan and execute a proper defense, then help them transition to a counter offensive."


    Now you know why he isn't General Dubik :) (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:38:35 AM EST
    He did a great job on that training. (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:41:04 AM EST
    The Iraqi army is giving up against the current overrunning of Iraqi cities.

    Most of the existing army in those (none / 0) (#70)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:50:55 AM EST
    Areas are probably Sunni, if you aren't Sunni you are getting the hell out of there.  If you are Sunni it probably looks like that scene from Braveheart where the Irish are running not into battle, but to get to the side they are fighting on :)

    Tikrit and Mosul (none / 0) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:47:49 AM EST
    Were always Sunni strong holds before the war.  Those are Sunni home towns.  Maliki isn't going to hold them how he wants to hold them.  The 3rd ACR had to spend the 3rd year of the Iraq War fighting and killing "Insurgents" in those towns trying to bring stability....but what is stability in a region like that particularly when it is a Sunni stronghold for how many hundreds of years?  Iraq is tribal.  Whatever nationalism it had Bush broke when he destroyed the Baathist party.  The Baathist party was secular, and Shiites also belonged to it.....that's gone now!

    And congratulations on your nephew (none / 0) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:33:05 AM EST
    Getting in at this time.  That is a difficult cut to make.  We are downsizing though Anne.  The Pentagon is pulling back its horns pretty hard.  The cogs of war making turn and grind slowly but once inertia has started in a certain direction it takes a hell of a lot to turn that back around.

    The war taps have been turned down very low.  The costs are fresh in the minds of the Pentagon.  They all very recently met their limitations and had to shake hands with them.

    Try not to worry about him.  He is in good hands at this time.


    Thanks, Tracy... (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Anne on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:44:30 AM EST
    Last I heard from him, he had moved up to the top five of his recruit class, and his goal is to finish #1.  

    This is a kid who struggled through school, for a variety of reasons, but played varsity sports and excelled in that arena.  He is loving the physical challenge the Marines are putting him through, and when he's home for a week after he graduates, I fully expect to see someone who's grown in many, many ways.  

    He's a good kid with his head on straight, who just wasn't cut out for college - at least not now - and who needed structure and direction - and I imagine he's getting heaping helpings of that these days!

    I'm getting better at not worrying - as much - about things I can't control, but it's a constant struggle for this Type A person...


    Yes, he may in a few years (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:55:04 AM EST
    Turn around and mow through college like it is butter too.  I have seen that happen after military service.  If he is an honor grad often enough the military may give him a paid leave to go to college for them too.

    The Army did for my spouse.  Right out of high school my spouse was not ready for college, and when he was he graduated with a 4.0.


    The Coast Guard (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:19:55 AM EST
    did the same for the son of close friends of ours.  He had two years of college, but lost interest in continuing and joined the Coast Guard.
    And now, they are paying him while he finishes his degree, and he is doing very well.

    The Marine Corp (none / 0) (#73)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:57:38 AM EST
    Also sent my cousin in law to school to get an MBA for them.  He will probably make more money than God in the next ten years.  I recently saw his Marine Corp photo, he looks like he eats beating hearts for breakfast, never saw a battlefield....sigh

    My Beastly ABCs iPad app (none / 0) (#2)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 09:22:37 PM EST
    Nice! I sent it off (none / 0) (#3)
    by nycstray on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 09:53:08 PM EST
    to alert my great nephews' (1 and 4) mom :)

    Super cute (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 04:05:31 AM EST
    If you're still watching Continuum... (none / 0) (#4)
    by unitron on Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 11:55:35 PM EST
    ...the US airing on SyFy, that is, I'd think you'd be too confused to follow any other shows just now.

    Why's That? (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:04:44 AM EST
    I have been watching it..

    The Iraqi regime may be collapsing. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:47:57 AM EST
    For many of us who are glad that the era of American military involvement in Iraq is in our reaer-view mirror, there's a temptation to ignore reports of the continued violence that occurs there on a daily basis.

    However, for the government we left in place upon our departure, things have gotten a lot more dicey in recent days, as Sunni militants have driven U.S.-trained government forces from the country's second largest city, Mosul, are now in the late Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, and are apparently ready to advance on Baghdad itself. From The Guardian:

    "The extent of the Iraqi army's defeat at the hands of militants from the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (Isis) became clear on Wednesday when officials in Baghdad conceded that insurgents had stripped the main army base in the northern city of Mosul of weapons, released hundreds of prisoners from the city's jails and may have seized up to $480m in banknotes from the city's banks."

    While the country has long been plagued by internecine anarchy since the fall of Saddam, the next paragraph revealed the extent of the Iraqi Army's rout at the hands of a relative handful of insurgents, which is a rather startling turn of events:

    "Iraqi officials told the Guardian that two divisions of Iraqi soldiers -- roughly 30,000 men -- simply turned and ran in the face of the assault by an insurgent force of just 800 fighters. Isis extremists roamed freely on Wednesday through the streets of Mosul, openly surprised at the ease with which they took Iraq's second largest city after three days of sporadic fighting."

    The Iraqi Army has long been widely viewed by the minority Sunni population as behind a series of sectarian attacks on Sunni civilians in the northern and western part of the country, and further, many believe that those assaults were committed at the behest of Maliki's Shiite-dominated government.

    There is also a concurrent refugee crisis, as 500,000 residents, mostly Shiites and Kurds, have fled the fighting in Mosul, with the Shiites streaming south to Baghdad, and the Kurds north into the autonomous region of Kurdistan.

    This is probably not going to end very well.

    And apparently the Iraqi government... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by unitron on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:11:04 AM EST
    ...wouldn't mind terribly some good old US airstrikes against the "bad guys", and I'm not sure how we manage to say "No thanks, you guys are on your own now." and just let Al Qaeda take over an oil rich country like Iraq.*

    So that era may not be ending quite yet.

    Like the inept baseball player of anecdote, GW Bush may have screwed up that field position so bad that nobody can play it.

    *Unless maybe we can get them bogged down in another decade of war with Iran and keep both countries too busy slaughtering each other's children to get up to mischief beyond their borders--cheery thought, isn't it?


    Just saw this (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 09:08:32 AM EST
    ...anyone who ever ran/mixed live sound knew that the way they presented the "Dean Scream" was the equivalent of lying by omission, and I can't believe anybody got to be a producer without knowing enough to know that as well.
    It's bad enough when the opposite party pulls dirty tricks, but when what is supposed to be objective sources for the millions of voters who weren't in that room that night do the same thing, how can you trust anything they say about anyone?

    Yes.  Unbelievable.  That's the thing they ALL knew the truth but it was just so funny, ya know, to show that scream out of context.  So many times it became a meme.  It made me sick.  I stopped reading or watching news for weeks.  The only other time I have done that was when the Court stole the election in 2000.  
    I actually made me wonder if some very powerful people saw Dean as a threat to the status quo.


    I've always believed that (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by sj on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:30:25 AM EST
    is no coincidence that the media smear around the so-called Dean Scream in January of 2004 followed closely on the heels of his comments in December of 2003 comments. He made the mistake of stating publicly that the giant media conglomerates should be broken up. The idea was the right one. Stating it outright was an error of epic proportions.

    In my mind, it wasn't the so-call scream that was the gaffe, it was those comments.


    Fargo... (none / 0) (#16)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 07:45:19 AM EST
    (spoiler alert)

    I simply cannot understand why Lester made a point to renew his acquaintance with Lorne Malvo - the one person who could implicate him in the murders of his wife and the police officer.

    Don't make no sense.

    I had thought that Lester was going to try to avoid being seen by Malvo so that he could continue with his new life undisturbed.

    I also wondered that Malvo, who seemed to have parked in Lester's office in the middle of the night to wait for him, wouldn't have noticed that the face under Lester's hood was that of a woman.
    It looked as if he was right in front of her when he shot.

    I guess we'll find out if he is under the impression that he shot Lester - or if he knowingly gunned down the woman who entered the office not caring who he shot.

    Finally - they really morphed old Lester from a sort of henpecked sad sack into a truly evil mf.

    The conclusion next week should be a doozy.

    Lester explained why he (none / 0) (#18)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:16:59 AM EST
    Accosts Malvo.  The old Lester would not have done it this is the new salesman of the year Lester.   I rewatched the shooting if the wife.   I think he may have been behind her at shooting but I think he looked and realized it was not Lester.  
    I could be wrong.  
    My question would be how the heck did he instantly become a functional Dentist overnight.  
    Lester did morph but let's not forget he killed his first wife rather brutally and lived for weeks with the blood on the floor so ....

    I agree the finale should be amazing.  Can't wait to see who survives till next season.


    Still... (none / 0) (#50)
    by lentinel on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 10:04:09 AM EST
    old or new Lester...

    I would think it wouldn't be about the new Lester being self-assured...

    I would think it would be about not doing something that might land his sorry keister in the clink for life - or worse.

    He insists on making himself known to the one person who could incriminate him.

    I wondered about Malvo the Dentist also.
    Gee. That was fast.
    There's a "Three Stooges" episode, "The Tooth will Out", in which they become dentists in a week. Diplomat @ 3 for $25. Maybe Malvo went to the same school...

    And what about Malvo the Clergyman?

    True - Lester was brutal in that first murder - but it was done in the heat of passion while he was being derided and ridiculed.
    The other things - implicating his brother - and the killing of his wife were premeditated and coldblooded.


    I don't think Malvo incriminating him is (none / 0) (#107)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:56:19 AM EST
    an issue. Mutually assured destruction there. But Malvo killing him was a real possibility - new Lester is not really any smarter than old Lester.

    I think it would not be all that hard to get away with the dentistry, since he was there to spy on the other dentist, not make money. He could read up on how to do a Novocaine shot and a little drilling and filling, and send people away for anything more serious. I've been going to my dentist for 8 years and he has never done more than look and poke around a little bit. The hygienist does all the work in a lot of cases.


    I guess (none / 0) (#161)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:50:24 PM EST
    Still, he was using a laser

    OK....well, he IS a psychopath (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by ruffian on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 02:00:16 PM EST
    Jim Carrey's commencement speach (none / 0) (#92)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:27:36 AM EST
    It's good and fun and the painting is not bad either.


    Solo show at Gagosian coming soon? (none / 0) (#104)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 11:50:52 AM EST
    I like this painting better than (none / 0) (#132)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 12:37:41 PM EST
    bob dylan's. And Jim Carrey has the name.

    Mark Oconner (none / 0) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 01:31:32 PM EST
    Just been listening to one of my favorite CDs while cooking.

    Midnight on the Water

    LIVE not from the CD

    thread closed and some of (none / 0) (#205)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Jun 12, 2014 at 08:49:37 PM EST
    personal attacks between commenters deleted. I don't have time to read them all. All opinions are welcome, but name-calling and personal attacks are not.