Tuesday Open Thread

A federal judge has thrown out Pennsylvania's ban on gay marriage.

"We now join the 12 federal district courts across the country which, when confronted with these inequities in their own states, have concluded that all couples deserve equal dignity in the realm of civil marriage."

Our earlier open threads are filled. Here's a new one, all topics welcome.

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    So (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 02:20:57 PM EST
    I just found out that David Perdue supposedly the "strongest" candidate for the GOP in the senate had a class action lawsuit filed against him as President of Dollar General for paying his women employees way less for doing the same job as men. So even if he somehow wins a runoff he's going to have to explain to a female candidate why he paid his women employees less.

    Interesting days down here in GA for sure.

    I'm sure his reason will have (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Anne on Tue May 20, 2014 at 02:59:55 PM EST
    something to do with binders...

    But Republicans love female employees. (none / 0) (#54)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:33:35 PM EST
    To them, it's simply sound business practice to prefer women over men when hiring, because they save 25 cents on the dollar in payroll costs.



    Yup- I was just yesterday speculating (none / 0) (#98)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2014 at 12:00:07 PM EST
    to myself along those lines regarding the sudden surge in female executives in my own corporate overlord. Is it possible to be too cynical and suspicious these days? Naaaa....

    That's for sure. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:10:11 PM EST
    Personally, I think my favorite Perdue is David's cousin, Sonny. If you remember back when he first successfully ran for governor of your fair state back in 2002, Sonny pledged to restore the Confederate battle emblem to the Georgia state flag. Then, on election night that year, according to the editorial board of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution (November 9, 2002):

    "As Perdue borrowed Martin Luther King's famous oratory -- 'Free at last, free at last, thank God Almighty I'm free at last!' -- to underscore the end of Democratic Party dominance in Georgia, one of Perdue's supporters, standing in the background, waved a Confederate battle flag. The clash of symbols was both startling and unsettling, and served as a grim reminder of Perdue's unfortunate decision to include no small amount of race-baiting demagoguery in his campaign arsenal."

    How does a decent human being stand such times as these? One can only hope that Georgians finally wise up to the fact that the Perdues' rather noxious private and public conduct really has no place in civilized American politics, and do the right thing for both themselves and the rest of the country.



    After reading (none / 0) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:38:01 PM EST
    this it makes me even more unsure that Perdue is a good candidate. He'll probably start the whole condescending thing that he did to Handel on Nunn.

    I do wonder how intelligent (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CoralGables on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:49:20 PM EST
    the Perdue campaign is when I've received 3 phone calls from them asking for my vote in the last week, to a Miami area code phone number, when I haven't lived in Georgia since 1985.

    And I live (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:55:16 PM EST
    here in GA and only got one call. It was from his cousin (as if that would help with me anyway).

    Where in GA did you live when you lived here?


    Norcross (none / 0) (#20)
    by CoralGables on Tue May 20, 2014 at 04:11:59 PM EST
    on Peachtree Corners Circle, and for a very brief time in Marietta down the street from the Big Chicken.

    Familiar (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 04:23:51 PM EST
    with both those areas though I'm sure they've changed a lot since you last lived here. I've only lived in GA since 1989 and Metro Atlanta since 1996.

    Hey CG, OT, but I met (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 20, 2014 at 05:31:20 PM EST
    Blake Russell recently.

    She was at a track up in Monterey doing a workout with her coach preparing for the Big Sur Marathon.

    HAd a very nice chat with her!

    Weird that she's not more known. Heck, I was unaware of many of her accomplishments.


    Have a race for you (none / 0) (#59)
    by CoralGables on Tue May 20, 2014 at 11:17:32 PM EST
    to watch. At the Prefontaine Classic in Eugene on May 31, the 5000 meters has 8 entries that have run under 12:54.

    Hahahahaha! (none / 0) (#22)
    by Zorba on Tue May 20, 2014 at 04:25:43 PM EST
    I hope you told them that you haven't lived there in years and they are idiots.
    OTOH, with so many people having cell phones that they acquired in one state and then moved to another and kept their cell phone numbers with the original area code, maybe they thought that it was your cell phone and you have moved back to Georgia with your Miami cell phone number after a brief stay in Miami.
    Nah, I think that they are just idiots.   ;-)

    They (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 04:29:33 PM EST
    are idiots. Thinking that I have these people in the governor's mansion and ruling the gold dome is enough to give me a migraine.

    And yes, not only are they stupid with robocalls, they can't do anything but bad legislation either.


    Yeah, I want to work for Dollar General... (5.00 / 2) (#8)
    by Anne on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:36:03 PM EST
    Mother Jones:

    In 2006, three years into Perdue's four-plus years as Dollar General's CEO, federal investigators at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission found that female store managers who worked for the company he ran "were discriminated against," and "generally were paid less than similarly situated male managers performing duties requiring equal skill, effort, and responsibility." A year later, separate from that investigation, thousands of female managers who were paid less than their male counterparts joined a class action suit against the company--which Dollar General eventually settled, paying the women more than $15 million.


    The case began on March 7, 2006, when Janet Calvert, the former manager of a Dollar General in Alabama, sued the company for paying her less than male managers. Dollar General, which was still under Perdue's leadership, tried and failed to prevent other female employees from joining Calvert and suing as a class. By 2008, more than 2,100 current and former employees had joined a certified a class open to women who worked as store managers for Dollar General between November 30, 2004 and November 30, 2007. (Perdue was CEO from April 2003 to summer 2007.)

    The women claimed that Dollar General was violating not only the Equal Pay Act, a federal law that prohibits pay discrimination on the basis of gender, but also Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employment discrimination on the basis of race, by using compensation practices that disproportionately hurt women. For example, the company considered employees' past salary at Dollar General or other jobs when determining pay--which hurt women because they are paid less in the job market generally, and at Dollar General specifically, than men.


    Dollar General faced another significant lawsuit under Perdue, brought by some 2,000 current and former employees who in 2006 claimed that the company had made them managers in name only so it could deny them overtime they would have earned as store clerks. In 2013, Dollar General agreed in mediation to pay the ex-employees up to $8.5 million. That settlement awaits court approval.

    In another case, a district court forced Dollar General to pay nearly $74,000 to Martha Bryant, a diabetic employee it fired in 2004 for taking time off under the Family Medical Leave Act. Dollar General argued that the law does not prohibit retaliation against employees who take FMLA leave. Dollar General appealed to the US Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, which upheld the district court's judgment against Dollar General.

    My favorite part is the bolded section, above.



    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:48:53 PM EST
    the MORE you look the WORSE he looks. And then to boot he took this really condescending attitude towards one of the female GOP candidates. Georgia is 52% women in the state. I'm sure there are some that will tolerate this stuff but how many? Not sure but there's a woman waiting on the D side to remind everybody about this kind of stuff.

    It sounds like no matter who the GOP ends up nominating Michelle Nunn may have hit the jackpot.


    Screenwriters back in 1979 could've used David Perdue as the basis for the stock characters from corporate management in the film Norma Rae.

    The choices for Georgians (none / 0) (#2)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 20, 2014 at 02:52:42 PM EST
    may seem  difficult, ranging from the impossible (e.g., Paul Broun, the anti-science Congressman who is on the House Science, Space and Technology Committee) to  Ms. Nunn, who is not sure if she would vote for the ACA if she had been in the senate at the time

    And then their is , Nathan Deal, the incumbent slug governor or Jason Carter, his opponent who was the only Democrat in the state senate to vote for the "guns everywhere" law.

    However, a reality-based comparison reveals that Nunn and Carter may disappoint on certain issues, but their counterparts inflict  real harm--not only to Georgians, but to national interests.

    In the context of saner government, there is little doubt for those with enough neurons to make a synapse, that there is no real choice at this point in politics.


    For me (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:03:15 PM EST
    Nunn will be easy to vote for. Carter not so much. I guess I will see what I think of him by the time November rolls around.

    I don't know if anybody is excited about Carter but plenty of women sure are excited about Nunn. Carter will win if enough people are just sick of Nathan Deal.

    The GOP is also just terrified in general here in GA because they know the jig is up pretty soon for them.

    They also are PRAYING that Hillary does not run which I find hysterical.


    Doesn't surprise me at all, given that ... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:31:38 PM EST
    ... your former governor Sonny Perdue is probably best known for having convened a public gathering at the state capitol in Atlanta to pray for rain. Why would anybody in their right mind would seek to vote for such clowns is beyond me.

    Maybe in this case, the operative phrase is "in their right mind." Because not unlike their Dixiecrat forebears, Georgia Republicans and their supporters are truly a special kind of stupid.



    I always (none / 0) (#11)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:44:26 PM EST
    wonder if there are just zombies who pull the R lever no matter who is running or whether they really agree with this stuff. I'm sure there are people and plenty of people who do agree but I always wonder how much of his support came from the GOP zombie parade vs. fundamentalists.

    MSNBC seems to have made it impossible (none / 0) (#29)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 05:36:18 PM EST
    To link to specific videos for some reason at least on my iPad. But go here and click on the video Titled New Hampshire Police Commissioner Resigns.

    I DVR Hardball and yesterday he really gave me a chuckle.  The piece is about this guy who publicly calls the president the n word and is forced to resign.  But the funny part is Tweety ruminating on how no one NO ONE uses that word any more.  Why, he hasn't heard that word, well, ever.  So, his point is don't anyone think that this actually ever happens.  It DOSENT and this guy is just some strange aberration.

    Oh man, take a trip outside the beltway you stupid gasbag.    


    Oh, man (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 05:58:53 PM EST
    Tweety does need to get out of the beltway for sure. Spend some time in the deep south. Very common to hear it down here.

    Heck, Tweety can come visit my valley ... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:17:48 PM EST
    ... here on Oahu, and I'll introduce him to an 83-year-old neighbor from Alabama, who certainly didn't hide his racist disdain for the Obamas from me. Why a racist cracker like him chose to live in multi-cultural Honolulu, where whites constitute only 30% of the population, constitutes one of life's eternal mysteries.

    Bob and Maureen (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by jbindc on Tue May 20, 2014 at 02:59:13 PM EST
    It's time to ask for a plea deal.

    Judge in McDonnell case won't throw out corruption charges or allow separate trials

    A federal judge declined Tuesday to throw out the federal corruption charges against former Virginia governor Robert F. McDonnell (R) and his wife, Maureen, or to separate their cases, ordering the proceedings to move ahead as planned toward a single jury trial in July.

    The ruling by federal district judge James R. Spencer -- though not particularly surprising -- is a significant loss for the couple's defense attorneys, who had wanted to dismantle prosecutors' case long before a jury heard it. Although there will be other important legal battles in the months to come, the attorneys now must turn their attention to winning the case at trial.

    For those that stopped watching DWTS (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by CoralGables on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:44:10 PM EST
    back during the Palin fiasco, you have missed who looks to be the greatest non-pro dancer to ever be on the show. I see no comparison between Meryl Davis and anyone that has been on the show thus far.

    Meryl Davis, of Olympic Ice Dancing fame, goes into tonight's finale as easily the best on the show and yet may find herself in second place by the end of tonight due to circumstances with which she is unable to compete.

    The final results should be:

    1. Meryl Davis
    2. Amy Purdy
    3. Candace Cameron Bure (who probably should have been eliminated a couple weeks ago)

    In overturning the Pennsylvania (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by KeysDan on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:57:51 PM EST
    ban, US District Judge John E. Jones, III called the plaintiffs (a widow, 11 couples and one of the couples teenage daughters) courageous.  " We are better people than what these laws represent, and it is time to discard them into the ash heap of history" --the federal judge wrote of the 1996 state ban.

     Judge Jones did not issue a stay to his ruling during a potential appeal by the governor (an appellate court could do so).  There was no immediate word from former Senator Rick Santorum who recommended Jones for appointment to the federal bench by President George W. Bush.  

    Whether intentional or not, the Supreme Court ruling on Windsor is proving to be an effective incremental process.  While only a part of DOMA was overturned (federal recognition) the part that permitted states to define marriage was untouched.  Never-the-less, state bans became subject to scrutiny due to the broadness of the Supreme Court ruling under equal protection.  

    While the upshot may be messier jurisprudence in the short-term than an instant national ban, there is a roll-out period that permits becoming accustomed to a sense of the  inevitable.   Hopefully, too, there will be less backlash from the sanctity of marriage folks, like Georgians Newt Gingrich (thrice married) or Paul Broun (married four times).  

    Even better than Judge Jones's conclusion (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by Peter G on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:28:43 PM EST
    is the final passage from Judge Michael McShane's opinion yesterday in the Oregon case:
    My decision will not be the final word on this subject, but on this issue of marriage I am struck more by our similarities than our differences. I believe that if we can look for a moment past gender and sexuality, we can see in these plaintiffs nothing more or less than our own families. Families who we would expect our Constitution to protect, if not exalt, in equal measure. With discernment we see not shadows lurking in closets or the stereotypes of what was once believed; rather, we see families committed to the common purpose of love, devotion, and
    service to the greater community.
         Where will this all lead? I know that many suggest we are going down a slippery slope that will have no moral boundaries. To those who truly harbor such fears, I can only say this: Let us look less to the sky to see what might fall; rather, let us look to each other ... and rise.

    I agree about the roll out (none / 0) (#31)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 06:43:59 PM EST
    From the Penn decision -

    "That same sex marriage causes discomfort in some does not make it constitutional."

    Very very true.
    But I honestly don't think many people appreciate what a jarring social upheaval this is for some.  And the breathtaking speed of the change has surprised most people not just opponents.  
    Stepping off from shooters comment above, I live with these people.  Many of them re not bad people.  But they have led isolated and sheltered lives.  Making them hate us by a sweeping national decision would not have, IMO, been the best way to go.


    I had (none / 0) (#32)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 07:15:07 PM EST
    a friend one time that was African American who went to college in Kentucky. She said she met people from Eastern Kentucky thought she was a devil or something. She said one of the girls blantantly was hateful to her during class one day and the professor called the girl down. The girl defended hersself saying that my friend was not real. I know this sounds completely crazy and I stared at friend as she related this story to me. Anyway, the professor made the girl get up and go over to my friend and touch her arm and see that she had skin just like she did etc. so that she could learn that my friend was just another human with a skin of a different color. I said how could she not know that black people exist? My friend said that she led a very sheltered and isolated life and never had come in contact with a black person before therefore she believed all kinds of rumors about black people.

    I have noticed something similar with a lot of conservatives. They seem to only see the pictures of gay price from SF with the wackiest photos and, of course, they probably know no one who is gay. So they believe the stuff that Pat Robertson et al feed them.

    My first career was in retail so I worked with a lot of gay people. To me Bob and Dale were just friends. But their house? It was magnificently decorated. I wished they would come and fix mine up. LOL. I also went to church with a gay couple who had adopted some children. This caused a lot of problems for some people but it also changed the minds of those who were against gay people to see that gay couples just want the same thing everybody else does--a decent life.


    Amazing story (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 07:34:36 PM EST
    One of those you need to have lived here to believe.  
    Yes.  Once people see that we are not all tht different from them their minds start changing.  Which is why I have since I came out in 1970 been militant about being open.  And when I say militant I don't mean necessarily in an aggressive way but militant in that it is the responsibility of every one of us to let people know who we are.  A responsibility that I personally take very seriously and that I do not like you if you shirk.  I have never had a job where my orientation was not known.  Even the merchant marines.  I have no patients for closet cases.  Never have and I certainly don't now.  

    Also of my other comment, a sweeping national decision is coming when one of these cases makes it to the supremes.  But that will be a year or two from now and the country will have been prepared.


    I think (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:02:21 PM EST
    most people can handle a national decision but the people that live around you are going to probably have a collective meltdown.

    Though I have to say these fundamentalist ministers who have been saying that the wrath of God is going to be rained down upon us because of gay marriage have lost a lot of credibilty with the general public and maybe even some of their own parishoners due the fact that Massachussetts seems to being just fine. Nothing came out of the sky that blew up the state. I guess it never occured to them that maybe God has bigger things to worry about than two guys getting married. LOL


    Unfortunate (none / 0) (#38)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:06:02 PM EST
    That the wrath of god, namely climate change Armageddon, is going to hit that part of the country right on que.

    Maybe (none / 0) (#40)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:12:27 PM EST
    then they'll believe in climate change? Naw, they still won't. They will think that is the wrath of God since so many of them don't believe in science.

    And, quess what, Ga? (none / 0) (#100)
    by NYShooter on Wed May 21, 2014 at 12:16:46 PM EST
    You would feel the exact same way if you and one of "them" were switched at birth, and, brought up like they were.

    That's why I thought getting a discussion going about this very thing is so interesting. And, it's also the reason why I get annoyed reading posts about how "stupid, ignorant. etc," they are. Hey, I've done it myself, a lot, too. (btw, I'm not referring to you, Ga)

    I guess my point is that if we replace ridicule with empathy we will have gotten half way to fixing the awful divide that is threatening to blow up our country.


    ... people out there who prefer ignorance to the truth, because the truth can quite often be harsh and uncomfortable on our senses, with its clashing notes, conflicting tones, bright colors, muted pastels and myriad shades of gray.

    And therein lies the rub. While voters in general will most always claim in poll after poll to prefer those politicians who speak unpretentiously and tell the truth, the fact of the matter is that more often than not, those same voters are also big suckers for political siren calls. We tend to pay little if any attention to those political Cassandras among us who see full well the potential and real consequences of our collective folly, and strive to warn us off our otherwise questionable course before it's too late.

    Not surprisingly, therefore, Cassandra tends to not win very many elections. If ever we turn to her at all, it's only during those times of dire crisis, when her counsel may finally be heeded and even desired out of our own sense of desperation. But even then, we'd prefer that she remain on post only until such time as said crisis has abated, and we've no further use for her. After all, hanging out with Cassandra can be such a downer, especially when we're ready to once again party like it's 1999.

    Further, there are a lot of politicians who similarly prefer that their constituents remain ignorant, because the latter is then that much more susceptible to the laid back charms of black and white rhetoric. For those so-called leaders who regularly cast themselves as resolute public bulwarks against the approaching apocalypse, preaching Armageddon is a reliable means to a political end.

    Time and again in political campaigns, the most effective arguments are those which are simple, direct and only lightly nuanced at best. To the extent that a public controversy can be successfully reframed as a stark but emotionally resonant choice between "either us or them," unknowledgeable voters who aren't too big on detail can often be easily duped into voting
    against their own collective best interests.

    Only the most discerning of us will note the cynical convergence of deep-pocketed special interests with an elected official's political self-interest, which often flies under the public radar because it goes unreported by our star struck media. It then naturally follows that soon, there is no longer any "us" in them.

    At that point, we become our own Cassandra, gifted with prophecy but destined to be ignored, until such time as the walls come tumbling down and we're needed in the immediate thereafter to do a lot of the heavy lifting.

    Those of us who've parented teenagers know full well what that's like. And in that regard, an electorate is very much similar to a perpetual gathering of adolescents and young adults, generally exuberant in their outlook on life, but not quite wise to the real ways of the world.

    Anyway, speaking as someone who's long been deeply engaged in the political process, that's how I see it. If I can both recognize those aspects of that process which I can affect and distinguish them from that which I cannot, I can navigate the fine line between idealism and pragmatism and find my way to port.

    By picking and choosing my political battles wisely, preferably on ground and terms of my own choosing, I can both actualize my potential for success and avoid the types of frustrating experiences which might otherwise lead one to throw up his or her hands in despair and walk away, effectively abandoning the field to the Visigoths.



    I have no argument (none / 0) (#180)
    by NYShooter on Thu May 22, 2014 at 03:15:20 AM EST
    with anything you stated.

    But, my question is: Do you (and "you" meaning anyone) really believe that millions of people, encompassing huge portions of our country, are as competent as you all are, yet, choose to be ignorant, self destructive, the butt of jokes from people everywhere? Do they also want their children to grow up uneducated, hateful, and, toothless? Yeah, maybe some do. But, tens of millions?

    Why is it that we (generically) are so understanding towards African Americans, and, the many shortcomings of so many of their lives? It's because we understand the history, and, the psychological, sociological, and, environmental stresses they've come from, and, are still enduring today. We don't brand them with a predisposition to a life of crime, or a life sentence in a supermax. I never heard an A.A. three year old say, with his first words, "I want to grow up in poverty, uneducated, and, hopeless." No, most of them have their lives decided at the time of their birth. If they are fatherless, mother addicted, and, or, hardly able to care for herself, they are doomed from birth. We understand it will take many generations to undo the horror of their history here, and, more generations to build up a foundation to which they might have something resembling a fair chance at a hopeful and productive life.

    It's not an exact analogy, but, many of the negative, environmental pressures A.A's are born into, many of our fellow, Southern "dumbbells" are born victims of also. It may not be Black vs White, but, it's "The Man" vs all the rest, The Powerful vs the weak, the 1% vs the 99%.......on steroids.

    I know one thing for certain. (Here comes my turn at tooting my own horn) "As a Corporate Negotiator for many years, and, a damn good one at that, I never, not ever, ever, not even one time won a negotiation by starting out with, "Hey, stupid......"

    Look, we're either going to fight each other into another Civil War, settle for a less than mediocre way of life (kind of where our Government is heading towards now) or, grow up, and, deal with our problem intelligently.

    I'm not a religious person, but, I do believe we are our brother's keepers. And, I've live in the South long enough to get the feeling that it's not hopeless. I'll get into some of things I've experienced while living here as time goes on. But, I've seen enough positive change in the circle of people I move in, and, if what I've experienced on my small scale is allowed to grow, the future may just have a happy ending.

    More to come.......



    IMO (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 22, 2014 at 09:06:30 AM EST
    You are talking about two different things here --

    But, my question is: Do you (and "you" meaning anyone) really believe that millions of people, encompassing huge portions of our country, are as competent as you all are, yet, choose to be ignorant, self destructive, the butt of jokes from people everywhere? Do they also want their children to grow up uneducated, hateful, and, toothless? Yeah, maybe some do. But, tens of millions?

    There are people who through lack of education or opportunity would at least appear to fit your description - my parents for example.  My father was illiterate.  My mother finished eight grade.  They worked themselves literally to death so we could do better.  These are the people who need and deserve our sympathy and help.   They are also not the problem.   Those people, like many AAs are to busy surviving to be political.  As I said I had no hate taught to me.  Of anyone.  Sure I heard the n word but in that time and place it was literally just a word.  They held no animus for black people I remember or ever heard aside from that word.
    There is another group of people who, absolutely yes "choose to be ignorant, self destructive, the butt of jokes from people everywhere? Do they also want their children to grow up uneducated, hateful, and, toothless" .
    Well maybe not toothless but the rest, yes sir.  They wear it like a badge of honor.  They distain and despise science, and they would feel the same way about you.  These are not in many cases poor people.  THESE people are the problem.
    I recommend you find the biggest mega church in your area and start attending.   You will see what I mean.
    Help me out Ga6thDem?


    Okay. (5.00 / 1) (#184)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 22, 2014 at 10:05:07 AM EST
    Yes, the crux of what Howdy is saying is that basically there are two types of these type people. Some are reachable and some are not.

    You have to also realize that ignorance is a form of self esteem for a lot of these people. They wear it like a badge of honor because if you're ignorant then you can't be an "elitist" which is worse than being ignorant in their book.


    Thank you, yes (none / 0) (#185)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 22, 2014 at 10:14:53 AM EST
    It's my belief that the unreachable pool is far larger than the reachable one.  This is the Information Age.  They are not ignorant for lack of access to information.  They are ignorant because they choose very carefully where they, and their children, get the information.

    Also to be clear (none / 0) (#186)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 22, 2014 at 10:21:16 AM EST
    It's not an age thing.  I use my retired brother because he is such an obvious example of willfull ignorance.  But his beliefs, his conviction and his prejudices go right down the family tree of both my brother and sister.  Right down to the 17 grandchildren who range from early 30s to late teens.  In the entire family tree there are two who have refused the koolaid.  Myself and my stoner nephew who spent some time living with me.  Both outcasts and fine with that.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#194)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu May 22, 2014 at 12:07:19 PM EST
    I really could not say how many are reachable because frankly I have GIVEN UP trying to talk to them. They are like cult members where trying to reason with them and use facts does not pentrate AND you can predict what they are going to say before they even say it. Anything you say they just spout the latest canned talking points that were given to them and most of the times the canned stuff is not even an answer to the question you asked.

    Wow it seems like another country, (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 22, 2014 at 11:21:55 AM EST
    no, another world to me. I've lived in Chicago, Vermont, Boston, New Orleans, and several parts of California before settling in Portland. I have rural Illinois relatives and some of them are right wing bigots. My oldest cousin is one - and I've always adored him and his wife. At the last reunion he was talking about gays in a very negative way and my sister told him that he was related to a lesbian, her daughter. She went on to tell him what a great person she is. I think he was a bit sheepish. He never quite apologized but he went out of his way to be nice to her, me, and the other kids we had brought with us. Her gay daughter had not come with us being a little scared of her reception.

    I can relate to her discomfort (5.00 / 1) (#192)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 22, 2014 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    With attending.  But in a way maybe it's too bad she did not.  I think it might have been an example of visibility = change.  Me, I learned to roll with it in the 70s not that it ever bothered me that much.

    I thought you knight like the simplified art history at the bottom of the comments.


    I tried to talk her into coming (5.00 / 1) (#196)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 22, 2014 at 12:13:17 PM EST
    Suggested she make it into an art project. Bring a camera and talk to her relatives. She almost did, but had spent a little time in Texas where she was not treated well. She looks like a very handsome tall boy. She did grow her hair out for a study abroad in Nepal, but I doubt she ever put a dress on.

    Yes, art history simplified. Haha!


    I should also add that (none / 0) (#183)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 22, 2014 at 09:37:22 AM EST
    I also have direct experience of the latter group.  My current living family.  For example my bother who has a masters degree in education who won't even have a conversation about the possibility that the earth is more than 6000 years old.   An educator his whole life who now in retirement is a huge supporter of home schooling having decided that public schools are teaching lies from the pit of hell like evolution and diversity.  He is far from poor.  He and his wife have very generous teacher retirement packages and they got loads of money and land from her father when he shuffled off the mortal coil.
    These people are the problem.  And they are not at all interested in having a better relationship with you.  Or even me, his brother.  Hate is taught and reinforced and ignorance is glorified at least twice a week at their huge and fancy new church.

    Whether the South (or anywhere) ... (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by christinep on Thu May 22, 2014 at 11:39:43 AM EST
    Why does it appear that large numbers of a geographical group vote/act against their own economic interests?  An example:  Opposition to Medicaid expansion, etc.  Earlier sociological example: Embracing patterns of downward divisiveness via the illusion of class superiority & inferiority (middle against so-called "poor white trash" against blacks.)  

    We are all speculating here, of course.  To that extent, my own view is that "stupidity" isn't inherent in any geographical region.  BUT, continued submission to illusion can and does resemble a special ignorance.  It may be that the scars affixed to generations of still-fighting-the-Civil-War or still-feeling-like-a-victim may predispose large numbers of a geographic populace to adopt a kind of separateness ... a separateness from change, outside facts, science.  If that is the case, such a segment of society would be easy marks for reinforcing messages from Rasputin-type-mesmerists via the likes of repetitive news from Fox News, Limbaugh News, and other charlatans.

     As a good friend of mine and one long-ago from Mississippi notes:  Returning to her home area (and to other relatives in nearby rural Tennessee) on occasion, she is always surprised by how little the views of her relatives and their friends have evolved even as society has changed ... and, then, she hears the continual noise of Fox "news" in the background.  As she says:  That is "gospel."


    I believe it is devolving (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by CaptHowdy on Thu May 22, 2014 at 11:48:38 AM EST
    Not evolving.  I honestly think that in some way it was easier of me to come out in the 70s than it might be for a kid from this area to come out now.  Those of us who lived it remember the 70s was a time of experimentation and exploration.  Minds were opening and inhibitions were collapsing.  It was a better time for gay people.  It was in fact the gay renaissance.  Pre aids.  A subject covered in this weeks The Normal Heart.
    In many ways I think positions have hardened and often become extreme.  Part of it is progress and that it terrifies some.  Part of it is the ghettoization of information on the internet and news outlets.   Part of it is the rise of the extreme religious right in culture and politics.

    You (none / 0) (#102)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 12:34:59 PM EST
    are correct. Many of these people are very isolated like Howdy says above. A lot of them have never even left their own state. I knew many when I lived in SC that had never left the state much less lived anywhere else. So they get these false impressions about other people from rumors etc. because they have never known or even met any people from other parts of the country. Sometimes they even willfully isolate themselves from hearing anything that is different or even challenges their way of thinking. They find comfort in a bubble that does not challenge them. It's easier for them.

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 01:00:38 PM EST
    I have defended them and probably will again.   Having said that, there is plenty of old fashioned stupid.  And there is a good reason for that.  In this area there are no jobs for anyone who has ambitions that go beyond managing a walmart.  So the best and brightest leave as soon as they can.  Leaving the rest to make up the permanent population and breed.
    I also don't necessarily agree with the idea that if we were switched at birth and raised the same way we would be just like them.
    I was raised like them from birth and I never did fit in very well.  And I know and have known plenty of others who could say the same.

    So while agree that it's very easy to use to broad a brush somtimes a smaller one is entirely appropriate.

    I would be curious where in TN you live shooter.  Is it in more of a metro area or rural.
    Me, I am about as rural as you can get in the US.  I live three hours from the nearest airport and at least two from anything that could laughingly  be called a city.  And things are very different for my friends in Fayetteville or Little Rock.


    Last question, first (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by NYShooter on Wed May 21, 2014 at 02:36:07 PM EST
    I'm living in a rapidly growing small town right on the border with Nashville. It's pretty interesting that within 15 minutes, or so, you can go from the bustling Metro Nashville area to the stereotypical, "Booneville." But, I also lived in Upstate NY, and, the difference there, between the country, and, the City is even more dramatic. I tell you, I got goose bumps all over watching that movie, "Deliverance,"  especially those first scenes when we were introduced to the evolutionary-stunted inhabitants of the "back country." I know those people; I lived, and, worked with them.

    Now, back to the "switched at birth" comment. That concept didn't come out of my analysis; it has been studied, researched, and, certified by the experts who study those things. But, as with any broad, sweeping assertion, there will always be exceptions. You know, "97% of climate scientists have concluded, yadda, yadda...."

    So, I hope we can have a discussion on the established facts, and, not get bogged down with exceptions, outliers, and, aberrations. I'm sure you've known 150 I.Q. geniuses who conducted their lives like dopes. That doesn't preclude the fact that the great majority of born geniuses will outperform the  individuals born with intellectual deficiencies.


    No (none / 0) (#134)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 04:42:24 PM EST
    Certainly it's true that the average person switched at birth and raised the same way is at likely to turn out the same way.  This shows up often when kids go away to college or a first job and are for the first time exposed to a larger world.  Some flourish some recoil.  The ones who flourish don't usually come back until retirement.

    In my experience 15 minutes from Nashville changes pretty much everything.  Even if you live, as many of my Little Rock friends do, in a very rural looking area 15 minutes from LR you still can't help but occasionally be exposed to more.   And that more, speaking as a kid who grew up without it, changes everything.  Growing up as I did in an extremely rural area, literally never seeing anyone but my parents through the summer as a kid, cam make a big difference in a child's outlook.


    Funny story (none / 0) (#34)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 07:44:55 PM EST
    I recently started using the little local drug store down on Main Street.  I told the story about the night mare of getting my ACA benefits working smoothly.  In doing so I spent a lot of time dealing with the store employees.
    One day while waiting for something one of the girls, very nice and helpful, edged up to me and said "are you Judi's brother?"
    "Well I'm one of them" I said " she had three and has two"
    "Oh yes" she said "I know the other two, but I had heard a lot about you and I had never met, um, never met you"

    I knew exactly what she meant and almost said.  We had a nice chat.


    I'm not gay, but, I am Jewish (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by NYShooter on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:04:14 PM EST
    and, I assure you the similarity is pitch perfect.

     I don't look, or, "act" Jewish, so, face-to-face I've always been treated as a good, old Christian. And, to make my dual existence even more profound, most of the time, growing up, I lived in areas where I was, literally, the only Jew in Town. Some people hate Blacks, some hate Hispanics, but, Everyone hates Jews. (I know that's an exaggeration, but, 50 years ago, not so much.)  The anti-Semitism I learned to live with was so pervasive that even when the parents of my childhood friends knew of my heritage it didn't deter them from describing certain "suspect" individuals as, "Jew Bastards" right in front of me. The term was so acceptable that it was really one, hyphenated, word. It was said with such an easy, familiar cadence that it almost came across as descriptive rather than, simply, pejorative.


    I am sure that is true (none / 0) (#137)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 04:49:49 PM EST
    Something I have thought many times -

    When I was in high school I befriended this guy who had very few friends.  I was so naive and unaware of religious differences that his religion honestly never occurred to me.  My father was a worthless drunk but one thing I will always love him for is never letting my mother take us to church.  I grew up totally void of religious prejudice.  

    So anyway
    One day I was at Dave's house and he sat down at this beautiful grand piano and started playing.  I was enthralled and just listened silently and without any real reaction but envy of his being able to do that.  The funny thing was he was playing Exodus. It never occurred to me until years later that he was, in his own way, telling me he was Jewish.


    How did (none / 0) (#138)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 04:59:08 PM EST
    your brother turn out so religious since that is how you grew up?

    It's not just him (none / 0) (#139)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:06:18 PM EST
    He is just the most "evangelical". Also the most "educated" so he thinks it's his duty to guide the lesser of us.  My entire family are enthusiastic members of the Church of Christ.  
    Nuff said
     I guess it's their reaction to that kind of upbringing.  They got theirs I got mine.

    We never went to church with my parents.


    They must (none / 0) (#151)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:00:41 PM EST
    be from the far right wing of Church of Christ. I had one near where I used to live and they were moderate I would say bordering on liberal for the area it was in.

    Yes (none / 0) (#156)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:23:21 PM EST
    There is more than one branch.  They are from the "only people in heaven will be us" branch.  Literally.  I discussed this with him once.  Not Methodists, not Baptists, Lutherians yadda yadda.
    Just them.
    That is what he sincerely believes.that is the teaching of his church.

    Okay (none / 0) (#161)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:07:31 PM EST
    Well, if they think that way they are bordering on cult status.

    Google Church of Christ cult if you haven't ever and you will find some theologians who believe some of them ARE cults.


    I don't need to google (none / 0) (#163)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:20:29 PM EST
    I just got finished speaking to him on the phone.  It's his birthday.

    I know it's hard for a more sane religus person to get their head around.  But that's what they think.  When my nephew was living with me, who won't go to church with them either, he told me that his dad had once said, "well, at least don't go to any other church and maybe there is hope for you"

    Cult works for me.  


    No actually (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:35:16 PM EST
    it's not. There is something in the bible about 144,000 people are going to the ones that survive the apocalypse. Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are that 144,000 even though there are probably millions of them around the world. It's the same thinking. IMO a lot of people think that cults are only those David Koresh commune type things but what people forget is that cults are built around one charasmatic leader and I think some of these big box churches are that way. I mean say what you will about the mainline churches but they are built on differences over theology not based on some leader.

    Oh (none / 0) (#164)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:26:51 PM EST
    The day the gay marriage decision was stayed he returned my phone call



    So (none / 0) (#140)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:08:06 PM EST
    I can tell you from personal experience that religious prejudice can be learned later in life.  Nobody does it better than the CofC

    Seems unbelievable, (none / 0) (#35)
    by Zorba on Tue May 20, 2014 at 07:59:06 PM EST
    in this day and age, or even more than a few years ago.  Your friend was "not real"???  
    As far as the conservatives you mentioned who "probably know no one who is gay."  Yes, they know people who are gay.  It's just that the gay people they know are either not publicly "out," or those conservatives have their heads up their b*tts so far that they cannot, or will not, see what's right in front of them.
    Ignorance and willful blinders.  They remain with us, unfortunately.

    Well, that's (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:10:20 PM EST
    what I meant. They may know gay people but they don't "know" that they are gay.

    Well, this was back in the 1980's but still. I said didn't they watch The Cosby Show? She said no. I said didn't they listen to the radio? She said only country music. They didn't leave their small town ever. This particular girl was the first in her family to ever go to college. Probably the first in her family to ever leave Eastern Kentucky. We tend to forget that there are parts of the country that are so isolated even in this age of media.

    But heck I have family members who have all the modern conveniences and they still believe rumors. So even with the abilty to find out some people don't even try to find out what is really going on. My Aunt relies on what people tell her at the Baptist church she goes too and they tell her a lot of lies that cannot be undone even with the correct information.


    Or they get their (none / 0) (#41)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:14:04 PM EST
    Reinforcement from the world biggest idea ghetto called FaceBook.

    Well (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:21:33 PM EST
    she doesn't do facebook but yeah, plenty get their idiocy from there.

    I've gotten a number of conservatives to take their posts down by showing them they have fallen prey to hoaxes. For people that scream global warming is a hoax they sure fall for every hoax that people like Glenn Beck and Breitbart put out there.


    What a little learn'n will do: (none / 0) (#96)
    by NYShooter on Wed May 21, 2014 at 11:44:35 AM EST
    Africa provides a comprehensive and contigious time line of human development going back at least 7 million years. Africa, which developed the world's oldest human civilization, gave humanity the use of fire a million and half to two million years ago. It is the home of the first tools, astronomy, jewelry, fishing, mathematics, crops, art, use of pigments, cutting and other pointed instruments and animal domestication. In short Africa gave the world human civilization.

    p.s. We are all Black


    Once again, so excited and proud (5.00 / 8) (#18)
    by Peter G on Tue May 20, 2014 at 04:00:57 PM EST
    to be a former state board member and current Philadelphia Chapter president for the ACLU of PA. A great organization, and a wonderful win today for same-sex couples throughout our state.  The opinion and order addresses both the right to marry and the right to recognition of out-of-state marriages. We have not yet heard whether Governor Corbett will appeal.

    The Governor's office announced today (5.00 / 3) (#129)
    by Peter G on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:52:08 PM EST
    that the Comnmonwealth will not appeal.  Marriage equality is the law in Pennsylvania, until and unless the U.S. Supreme Court rules otherwise (which it won't, I'm pretty sure).

    Congratulations to you (5.00 / 2) (#147)
    by KeysDan on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:32:36 PM EST
    and all the other hard-working ACLU members in PA.  A milestone. Governor Corbett: " Given the high legal threshold set forth by Judge Jones in this case, the case is extremely unlikely to succeed on appeal."    Legally sound case, and the politics is interesting with the governor facing, probably,  an uphill battle against Tom Wolf; and polling showing a majority supportive of same sex marriage. Archbishop Charles Chaput will be disappointed, as he was urging an appeal.

    The ACLU would also fight for the right (5.00 / 2) (#175)
    by Peter G on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:19:16 PM EST
    of the Catholic Church, or any other religious group, to refuse to authorize their clergy to perform same-sex weddings or to recognize these marriages as sacraments within their respective faith traditions.  Not that anyone is threatening that right.  These court decisions only concern "civil marriage," that is, the rights and privileges that the state confers on married couples.  So when Archbishop Chaput says he wishes the Governor would appeal, he is saying that he wishes the State, by law, would continue to enforce the Catholic Church's definition of marriage, and impose that definition on all others in the Commonwealth, including those who do not believe at all in the teachings of the  Catholic Church. By granting summary judgment to the plaintiffs on an "intermediate scrutiny" standard, the judge is saying that the Governor's lawyers were unable to muster any evidence that any rational jury could credit, to support any rational justification for the limitation that the "Defense of Marriage Act" places on who can marry.

    I meant to say, (none / 0) (#177)
    by Peter G on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:55:29 PM EST
    not "any rational justification," but rather "any rational secular justification."

    Peter (none / 0) (#187)
    by jondee on Thu May 22, 2014 at 10:29:33 AM EST
    do you have any thoughts on the ACLU's support of the Citizens United decision?

    I went to my niece's graduation (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by ZtoA on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:06:09 PM EST
    at Pitzer on Saturday and Van Jones was the commencement speaker. His commencement speech was simply wonderful! He was very inspirational to everyone there. There were a few very scattered Fox lovers and they were not pleased. But it's Pitzer after all. He was very gracious after commencement and mingled with the grads. He talked with my niece and was interested in everyone.

    Link to the speech

    worth listening to (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by ZtoA on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:25:47 PM EST
    Beginning with his fight against a super prison for kids in Oakland. He created the Oakland Green Jobs Corps which created green jobs for kids so that they could come out of jails with a future. Nancy Pelosi took him to DC and Bush gave him a huge budget creating green jobs. Fox news attacked him. He said "Anytime your primary source of news is named after a sneaky predatory mammal...enough said."  He resigned and faced depression. But he finally got back into his good works.

    He said "your ego should always play little, but your soul should play big". Then he went onto creating "yes we code" teaching low opportunity kids to code and get jobs. And finally his fate vs destiny will be with those kids forever. As an older person this idea is so simply true.

    The only thing I did not like about his speech was that he did not mention loving aunts once.


    Two treats (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:28:28 PM EST
    A family celebration and Van Jones

    Yes MT it was! (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by ZtoA on Tue May 20, 2014 at 11:19:48 PM EST
    I had liked Van Jones but had not known what he had gone thru and all that he had been active in. He details some of it in his speech. It was fascinating. He is also a very engaging speaker who seems to talking to one personally. And he is a treat to see personally - even more handsome and charismatic in person than on this video.

    The family stuff was way too much fun. When my sister's family and my daughter and I get together we are a bit rowdy. My sister treated us to a very nice dinner (she makes the money in the family) and thank god it was an early dinner because we were rather loud and 'inappropriate' in our comments on each other's comments, laughing till we almost cried. My niece was an art and media studies major with a real future and she was dressed up in her best tie and pants. We also talked about the boring commencement speeches at my daughter's (Deval Patrick) and my other niece's (no one could remember) commencements and everyone had loved Van Jones's speech. It really is great to listen to. So glad it's on youtube.


    saw Godzilla today (none / 0) (#56)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 10:03:12 PM EST
    Oooo baby.  And I don't even like Godzilla movies.

    Yer killin me (none / 0) (#61)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 12:02:21 AM EST
    Too much going on this evening so we couldn't go.  I am attending a church event tomorrow evening with other nerd herd mothers...bonding.  Hopefully lightening won't hit me when I enter.  So I may be too wiped out tomorrow night too.

    We were trying to figure out today when we would get there.


    Allison Grimes (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:25:20 PM EST
    Is a very impressive lady.  I think she is going to beat Mitch.

    WTC Museum Second Take (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:01:02 AM EST
    Here is another take of the 9/11 museum.

    After the full-bore TSA-style security check, complete with body scan, there's a dark corridor...

    With all due respect to Holland Cotter' review, and the NYT, this on is more on the mark, imo. It is likely that Mr. Cotter, being an long time esteemed art reviewer for the NYT, did not have to get the full body scan.  

    Wow...to see the museum through (5.00 / 2) (#80)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:19:38 AM EST
    the eyes and heart and emotion of someone who lost his sister there that day was on the order of a privilege; while we all have our own experiences of that day, our own memories, this gave me insight that hurt as much as it helped.

    Maybe museums like this are more for people who didn't live through whatever it is the museum or memorial is all about, or during the time in which it happened, and who want to understand or be educated in a way that's more visceral than just reading about it or watching a film.  My husband's never had any desire to see the Vietnam Veterans' Memorial - he spent 13 months there, and didn't feel like he needed to see the wall to feel or appreciate the sacrifices (which is not to say that others who served felt the same way).

    Anyway, thanks for sharing the link - it's going to stay with me for a while, for sure.  


    Yes (none / 0) (#87)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:46:01 AM EST
    Quite different for people depending on personal experience and POV.

    I was woken up by the impact of the plane hitting WTC 1... thought it was a manhole cover exploding (happens in my hood) and went back to sleep. My GF went outside and called me.. it was horrible..

    I filmed the second tower before it came down..  but could not look at the footage for 8 or nine months..  when I saw it on a large screen (compared to the camera viewfinder) I noticed that the little dots that looked like bees around a hive, were actually people jumping out the window because the floor was so hot and there was no place to stand. So they jumped to their deaths.  The sound, low drum beat, was chilling.

    And the contrast of unbelievable beauty of the blue sky and smoke plume made it all the more chilling.

    The months after, longest burning industrial fire, were the worst of me. particularly because of the police who were collecting triple overtime and not cooperating with residents, to put it mildly, of the WTC zone.

    I heard that many senior police retired that year because of the triple and quadruple overtime..  their pension is set by the income they received in the last year on the force..  some weird perk bargained by the PBA.. My understanding is that many are getting close to $200K for life for retiring that year.


    Yeehaw! (5.00 / 2) (#110)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 02:03:50 PM EST
    I'm going to watch Fargo now.  I don't have to go to church tonight because they changed the menu to hotdogs, and everybody knows I DON'T EAT HOTDOGS...cept for kdog, ruffian and oculus, I will eat a hotdog for the kdog experience.

    Nobody here in Bama knows that though, they do not know that I will not eat hotdogs for Jesus but I will eat them for kdog.

    Ha! Your secret is safe with me! (5.00 / 4) (#119)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:06:01 PM EST
    I am looking forward to getting home and watching Fargo too...could  not stay up for it last night either. Capt Howdy has gotten me excited about it!

    It's a trip (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:24:54 PM EST
    Be warned (none / 0) (#148)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:39:35 PM EST
    It's a tad gory

    Heh, I was remembering a Tarantino (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:29:35 PM EST
    Discussion here at point while watching.

    Tarantino got nuthin on the Fargo creators


    Oh man (none / 0) (#166)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:37:05 PM EST
    I did not like it.

    The content or (none / 0) (#167)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:42:48 PM EST
    The presentation

    I ask because (none / 0) (#168)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:55:46 PM EST
    I thought the presentation was for some reason over the top.  The content was hard to take, if what seems to have happened really happened.  Let's hope she recovers.

    And it's all the writers fault.  We know that the "true story" crap is just that, right.  They only stuck that on there as sort of an inside joke on the movie which said the same thing and they even said that it was true in interviews but it was later revealed they were just messin with us and it was pure fiction.  So is the series I'm sure.


    I think both (none / 0) (#171)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:07:59 PM EST
    In fact if it is not true and the story is intentionally  this  far fetched and meaningless out of a writer's mind,  I like it even less. Kind of feel like I wasted my time.

    I do like the terrifying snow driving scenes. Those rang true.


    The violence was so over the top I could (none / 0) (#172)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:11:34 PM EST
    not keep the emotional connection with Colin Hanks and Molly, even though hanks was phenomenal in that episode. I would have been heartbroken if I weren't so shell shocked.

    I agree about Hanks (none / 0) (#174)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:18:02 PM EST
    What happens to him now?

    I agree with everything you said.


    I think there are two psycho killers too many (none / 0) (#176)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:43:31 PM EST
    That whole subplot with the deaf guy and the bearded guy is just too much

    I still love it but (none / 0) (#173)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:16:15 PM EST
    Snot true

    Fargo made its TV debut in the same way as it did on cinema screens in 1996: with the words, "This is a true story". The Coen brothers' modern classic certainly has a plot that is stranger than fiction - pregnant police chief Marge Gunderson stumbles upon a criminal stuffing his partner's body into a wood chipper while investigating five murders that stem from a ransom-raising kidnapping gone wrong. But that is all it ever was: fiction.
    Because the opening explanation is an untruth ("The events depicted in this film took place in Minnesota in 1987. At the request of the survivors, the names have been changed. Out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it occurred"). But, in the internet dawn of 1996, only a handful of critics decided to check whether such a crime had happened in Minnesota less than a decade earlier. So the myth that Fargo's brutally violent plot really did happen pervaded.
    The Coens stuck to the story during the promotion of their film, too. In an interview with Premiere in March 1996, Joel is quoted saying: "we wanted to try something based on a real story, and tell it in a way that was very pared down", before adding that the script was "pretty close" to the actual event.
    However, his brother Ethan revealed the truth behind the 'true story' in the introduction to Fargo's published screenplay, the closing sentence of which read: "[the film] aims to be both homey and exotic, and pretends to be true."
    The closest Fargo's plotline ever got to real life was in 2001, when an office worker from Tokyo named Takako Konishi was found dead in a snowy field outside of Detroit Lakes in Minnesota. Her death was ruled as a suicide, after Konishi was found to have suffered depression from being fired from her job and found to have overdosed on sedatives.

    Why would you ever be required to (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:11:13 PM EST
    go to church?

    We were invited to a dinner (5.00 / 1) (#144)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:27:45 PM EST
    And we accepted, but they switched the menu and I don't gotta go now.  Not even expected to show because Josh's friends know I don't eat hotdogs and they told the moms.  Received news from Josh via text message from one of his friends.

    Couldn't you just have potato (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:01:58 PM EST
    salad and chips?

    You know I can't do that many carbs (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:27:13 PM EST
    All at once.  Good Lord

    Reminds me of a comedian Josh and I listened to on Sirius yesterday

    My wife doesn't eat meat.  She doesn't like where it comes from and says it's animal cruelty.  She's an animal rights activist.  I am an activist too.  I can't stand how they slice, disembowel and mutilate vegetables.  I won't participate.  Poor vegetables, except potatoes, potatoes don't feel anything.


    You're missing the point (none / 0) (#153)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:13:47 PM EST
    She's missing it on purpose :) (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:19:23 PM EST
    As are you :) (5.00 / 1) (#157)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:24:18 PM EST
    Proud music parent post (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Dadler on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:17:49 PM EST
    Sounds great. In tune and in sync. (5.00 / 1) (#179)
    by oculus on Thu May 22, 2014 at 01:21:38 AM EST
    Taking a little, informal survey here....... (none / 0) (#14)
    by NYShooter on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:52:49 PM EST
    Are there any folks here who have lived for a considerable amount of time in both the North, and, the South? Or, more precisely, "Blue" & "Red" States? As you might know, I've been living in Tennessee for the last couple of years, after having lived most of my life in, and, around New York City.

    The reason I ask is because, unless you've lived in both areas for a while, you've probably formed your opinions on their differences from caricatures of how they're presented, and, not the reality of what they're really like.

    So, anybody out there who fits the description?

    No, not entirely, but maybe somewhat (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Zorba on Tue May 20, 2014 at 04:50:39 PM EST
    I grew up in Missouri and Southern Illinois, but have lived in Boston, San Francisco, Utah, New York City, and Western Maryland.
    Very North for the most part, but Missouri (now) and Southern Illinois (always) are quite Red, as is Utah.  Maryland is Blue, but Western Maryland is very Red.
    Utah and Western Maryland were/are quite eye-openers.  
    I have to say that, even if the people in those "Red" areas are quite conservative, I do not see them as caricatures.  There are a few real Fox News spouting wing-nuts, for sure, but the vast majority of the people are very nice and sincere folks (way for the most part conservative Christians), but they would give the shirts off of their backs to help their neighbors in trouble.  On a one-to-one basis, they are for the very most part, just nice people.  
    We get along quite well with our neighbors up here.  They may think that we are quite a bit "different" from them, as far as education and political leanings go, but at the end of the day, they are just people.  Quite nice people, at that.
    Of course, you have to understand that we don't live next to Cliven Bundy.   ;-)

    OT, Zorba (none / 0) (#67)
    by jbindc on Wed May 21, 2014 at 08:36:47 AM EST
    How do you feel about Larry Hogan, a Republican candidate for Maryland governor, and whom the Washington Post just endorsed?

    MARYLAND'S MORIBUND Republican Party is holding a primary for governor next month, though voters might be excused for not noticing. Even compared with the lackluster Democratic contest, which has not set pulses galloping, the GOP race is a low-key affair, featuring anemically financed conservatives who are struggling to convey this message: Maryland has been laid low by the Democratic establishment in Annapolis, which in eight years under Gov. Martin O'Malley has taxed the life out of the state's economy, leaving Virginia to claim the spoils.

    It's reasonable to question the proposition that Maryland's economy is utterly supine, while still hoping for a genuine contest of ideas in this fall. The Republican most likely to offer voters a plausible alternative is Larry Hogan, a businessman who served as appointments secretary under former governor Robert L. Ehrlich, the state's only GOP chief executive in the past 45 years.


    Still, he intentionally has distanced himself from more doctrinaire Republicans. Mr. Hogan sounds almost rueful when he says the state can't afford Democratic priorities such as transit projects, including the Purple Line, or expanding pre-kindergarten. That doesn't distinguish him from the rest of the GOP field, but his conciliatory tone and reluctance to declare war on the Democratic establishment do.

    The Democrats' overwhelming dominance of state politics in Maryland does not serve voters' interests. It invites bloat, complacency and corruption. By positioning himself to the left of the GOP's bomb-throwers, Mr. Hogan offers the best hope for a real race in November.

    If he wins the Republican Primary, (none / 0) (#76)
    by Zorba on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:34:18 AM EST
    I wouldn't vote for him in the General.  
    But it wouldn't necessarily make me unhappy if he does win his Primary, just in case the Maryland voters are dumb enough to elect another Republican Governor (they've certainly done it before).  He does not appear to be as bad as some Republicans.
    If he does become the Republican candidate, I wonder if the WashPost will wind up endorsing him over the Democrat?  It wouldn't necessarily surprise me.  The Post has been drifting rightward for years and years.  
    But I haven't heard a thing out of Hogan but vague generalities, so I don't know how the Post figures he's some kind of "best hope for a real race."  What are Hogan's specific recommendations and plans, were he to become Governor?  We have no idea.

    No (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 03:56:39 PM EST
    but I would like to hear you talk about the differences. I have only been to NYC on business so I doubt that would count for much but I could give you the observations I formed from business in NYC and living in SC at the time. LOL

    I've lived in S. iL, SEIA, MI, (none / 0) (#19)
    by oculus on Tue May 20, 2014 at 04:09:03 PM EST
    Cincinnati for a year, Norfolk VA for a year, Arlington VA for a year, and CA for a really long time. ,

    Yes - I grew up in IL (none / 0) (#24)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2014 at 04:40:05 PM EST
    Lived in both CA and CO for double digit years, now have been in FL for almost 8 years.  

    Some people say FL is not really 'the south' because of all of the non-natives, but I would beg to differ. Close enough! Also I have siblings in both GA and TN, so I have had some exposure there.

    Thinking about preconceptions that did not hold true...I expected people to actually be a lot more church-going religious. I have not found that to be as much as I expected, at least not that they talk about in everyday life, or try to evangelize. That was a nice surprise.


    You jus (none / 0) (#27)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 05:26:40 PM EST
    In the wrong part of the aouth

    Mabe Florida really isn't the south after all (none / 0) (#36)
    by ruffian on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:00:55 PM EST
    Yep (none / 0) (#26)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 05:02:31 PM EST
    I was born in AR lived there for about 25 years, although the ones after 17 were only part time because I was a merchant marine and I lived at home in my time off spending about two and a half of those in NYC in the early 70s.  Then brcause of work I for the next 40 years I lived in, in descending order from most to least based on time there, LA, NY, St Louis, Atlanta and Houston.  With jaunts of several months thrown in places like Montreal, Toronta, Pittsberg, SF.
    For the last 10 years or so I had a home here in AR while I travelled to do contract work in some of those cities and for three years on May 15th I have lived here in AR again, retired.

    I just saw your comment in another thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 10:58:18 PM EST
    About red and blue states being different countries.  
    You are correct.  And as someone who has experienced both all my life I can tell you that it's getting worse.  Which oddly is exactly the opposite of what I had thought would happen with the spread of the internet and other homogenizing effects starting in the eighties and nineties.  It's a strange thing with no simple solutions.

    Having said that Rohrabacher is still a dumb f@ck.
    Having famously speculated that climate change could be because of dinosaur farts


    You took that to mean (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by NYShooter on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:13:55 PM EST
    that I, somehow, approve of Mr. Rohrabacher ? Wow, speaking of dumb f@cks! (lol, Just kidding Howdy)

    Of course, he's a dumb f@ck. But, even among dumb f@cks there are differences. My point was, however, that I hope Rohrbacher doesn't believe that just because he has an "R" after his name that other "R's" will agree with him.


    Yep (none / 0) (#63)
    by jbindc on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:43:07 AM EST
    Born and raised in Michigan, lived in Texas for 6 years, now live in Virginia (although Northern Virginia doesn't really qualify as "the south").  I also spent many a summer with my grandparents in very rural Western PA, so I get both suburban living and rural life (although to a much lesser extent).

    And actually (none / 0) (#64)
    by jbindc on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:50:10 AM EST
    Found that when I lived in Texas in the 90's, while I didn't agree with many of the politics of the state, I couldn't have lived among and met nicer people (in Austin, San Antonio, College Station, near Houston, and visiting in Dallas).

    I have a friend who is a Republican that works for a committee on the Hill and she, like many Republicans here (who are not in front of a microphone) roll their eyes at what is shown on Fox News as well.

    So yes, we are seeing that many people get their political ideas from very narrow sources - on both sides of the politicial spectrum - and become so entrenched that they can't even begin to listen to the other side, let alone begin to understand.


    My sample size is two northern states (none / 0) (#65)
    by Farmboy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 08:07:10 AM EST
    Since 2010 I feel like Iowa is far more Red than the Purple-ish Blue I always thought it was. Voters reacted poorly to the State Supreme Court upholding equal rights for everyone, and it's gone downhill from there on many progressive issues. The politics of fear permeates everything... xenophobia, homophobia, anti-government phobia, science-phobia - the list goes on.

    Minnesota feels much more like the state I grew up in, yet even here issues that were mainstream GOP in the 50s are now considered the province of the DFL - and I've wondered if Wellstone, were he still with us, would be thought of as too far left.


    I don't think you can say (none / 0) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:18:00 AM EST
    Colorado is a blue state, but purple.  And I lived in Wyoming which is.....Wyoming, and then Southern AL.

    People here are not direct speaking, particularly women.  My family on my fathers side were settlers in Colorado though.  My grandmother plowed fields one year when my grandfather was ill.  It was fine in my family to wear a dress and heels, but not fine to be soft spoken or passive aggressive, say what you mean and mean what you say.

    At first how I spoke about things or spoke out shocked people, I think I have softened it some, but I found that I could not do away with it completely because I got depressed trying to do that.  I don't know how women around here do it.  But it helps a lot in getting Josh's needs met at school to just own my get stuff done approach.

    Alabama is kind to my son though, they are very inclusive of him.  I'll just say it, they are better at including Josh than purple Colorado was.  I don't run with an IEP for him in school that is 3 inches thick here because I don't have to here.  He has a special needs designation and is under 504 and all the teachers are helpful, some more than others sure, but all good teachers other than that one crazy racist science teacher preaching in class last year :)

    Those are just a few distinctions here I notice.  And lots of Jesus while not remembering exactly who Jesus was and what he said.

    Across the board hatred of Obamacare.  Really frustrates my daughter because so many of their healthcare challenges have been healed but whenever she attempts to speak about that frankly among her in-laws she says they stare ahead as if nobody is talking.  He is of course Department of the Army Civilian, they've never had a day without insurance since he was active duty.  But they have lived in the South all their lives except a few times when he was active duty....and Obamacare is the DEVIL!!!


    THANK YOU EVERYONE (5.00 / 5) (#99)
    by NYShooter on Wed May 21, 2014 at 12:06:37 PM EST
    for responding.

    I've been meaning to write about my experience, and feelings, regarding what living in the South is like for a City "slicker" like me.

    Since I've lived in many parts of the world, starting in Russia, and, now in Nashville, I believe I've learned some things that help explain why we have so much geographical strife among ourselves.

    Since so many of you folks responded you've given me confidence that if I write about my experiences, and solicit yours, I won't be writing to "The Hand."

    I think most everyone here has written a long, heartfelt post about something near and dear to your heart only to have it be ignored, run up against the 200 post limit, or someone else writes about some new "shiny penny" over there, and, everyone scoots over there. lol

    Anyway, thanks again. I believe the North/South, or, Red/Blue divide in our country is THE number one issue facing us, and, if understanding what it is, how it came about, and, what we can do to ameliorate it can be furthered a little bit here at TL we will have come a long way in making our country what we all want it to be.

    Maybe Jeralyn could give us a thread dedicated to this issue? But, regardless, I will be writing about this, and, we'll see where it goes.


    A better distinction might be urban/rural (5.00 / 2) (#114)
    by ragebot on Wed May 21, 2014 at 02:44:26 PM EST
    Most of us have seen the map of the US with voting on the county level.  The red counties spatially dominate while the blue counties (which contain the big cities and more population) are lost in that sea of red.

    In GA for example most of the state is red while Atlanta is blue.  Same for many of what I will call Northern states, especially in the Midwest.

    Another consideration is in a state like FL which is mostly blue outside the big cities is Tallahassee and Gainsville are blue due to the large universities there.  Austin in TX is another good example.


    This is a good point (none / 0) (#132)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 04:32:07 PM EST
    I lived in Houston, it ain't Texas.  Spent time in New Orleans, it sure ain't LA.  And I lived in Atlanta for three years.  And in my state if you were paying attention recently you saw the difference with two counties only performing marriages.  So yes, I think you have a point.  It's more urban/rural than north south even in the north.  But north south still applies of course

    Just saw this on teevee (none / 0) (#42)
    by CaptHowdy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:18:12 PM EST
    Couldn't even tell you why but it made me laugh

    imagine a world without balloons

    Well (none / 0) (#44)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:24:15 PM EST
    so far in the GA senate race Michelle Nunn is going take the D nomination. No surprise there since she really had very little competition.

    Right now it's looking like a run off between Perdue and Kingston. I guess tea partier Kingston might be the GOP nominee should that happen but lordy the air waves are going to in flames from the stuff those two are going to throw at each other.

    Even in my state legistlative district it looks like it's going to be a run off.

    How juicy (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:32:22 PM EST
    Will they end up destroying the winner in the end?  Keep us informed!

    The irony (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue May 20, 2014 at 09:56:38 PM EST
    is that the things that they are going to tar each other with is who can be more far right than the other guy. Those things are going to kill them in the general election. I seriously doubt that the things that would turn all the other general election voters in the state off like Dollar General having a class action suit against them is going to be sent out there during a runoff.

    Boehner's view (none / 0) (#45)
    by christinep on Tue May 20, 2014 at 08:35:06 PM EST
    So ... I see that Speaker Boehner notes that there is very little, if any, difference between the Tea Party and establishment Repubs.  Yep.  Lots of news reports on his latest observation today that the views of the average Repub and the so-called Tea Party are pretty much the same.  (Congrats to Ga6th who has been stressing that point all along!)  

    What a revelation, uh :) My, my.  Time for these new talking points now from the Repubs and the Politico(s) of the world, it seems.  (But then, we all knew that ... maybe.)

    Single Payer? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Slado on Tue May 20, 2014 at 10:25:42 PM EST
    The VA

    No thanks.

    When's the last time you went to (5.00 / 3) (#66)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2014 at 08:34:50 AM EST
    the doctor or lab or hospital and were seen on time?

    I mean, aren't we all familiar with the scenario where you arrive on time for your appointment, sit and wait in the waiting room, finally get called back to sit in an examining room and wait there for the doctor?

    My daughter arrived 10 minutes early for her scheduled OB appointment, and waited for an hour and a half past her appointment time to see the doctor for less than 15 minutes.

    And that's in a private care setting, not a single-payer one.

    Private insurance has made it so that doctors need to work off quantity of patients, which means good doctors who spend time they feel the patient needs in spite of the insurance company dictates for how long a routine visit is supposed to take end up with backed-up waiting rooms. So please - don't try to make the case that single payer is going to introduce elements that aren't already present in and endemic to our current system.

    As much time as I know you've spent in medical settings, I'm disappointed that you would go this route.


    Yes , please (none / 0) (#62)
    by Yman on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:33:31 AM EST
    Fargo (none / 0) (#68)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 08:46:28 AM EST
    Was amazing last night.  Hope it retained some fans.  

    And the Americans season finale is tonight.  Have you still been watching MT?  

    I fell asleep in the middle :) (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 08:53:15 AM EST
    That's how I roll these days.

    I did get 2nd episode of Penny Dreadful in before crashing.  I'm having a hard time.   I can't have sex with horror unless those having sex get butchered slightly before, during, or after.  You just can't run around in horror having sex and surviving.

    Truthfully, my wires have a hard time making the cross.  I like my horror and sex compartmentalized.


    Funny (none / 0) (#75)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:27:48 AM EST
    I like sex before after and without bloodshed.

    If you fell asleep during Fargo you missed it.  The ending rocked.  Lots of bloodshed there.  No sex though.  Lester is getting very interesting.

    Btw I wasn't sure if you got the movie reference I was talking about the other day.
    The money.  We find out what happened to the money Steve Buscime (sp) buried in the snow before he ended up in the wood chipper.  It has become a major player in the series.


    My Christian Nation upbringing is showing (none / 0) (#77)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:37:06 AM EST
    If your junk doesn't turn black and rot off, you must either be butchered for thinking about it, or my God being caught in the act, or having that warm fuzzy afterglow :)

    I have Fargo recorded.  I'll try it again after this church thing tonight.  I'll have to wash my brain in something and I don't think I'll make Godzilla tonight.


    Man (none / 0) (#71)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:01:08 AM EST
    Alison Lundergran Grimes laid down the gauntlet on Ole Mitch. That was a sight to behold.

    Have you seen her latest ad (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by ragebot on Wed May 21, 2014 at 02:53:13 PM EST
    Lundegren very calmly says she is an outsider who will not be a back bencher who falls in line with the powers that be.  She goes on to say she will not answer to the president no matter who he or she might be.

    This is getting interesting.


    Yes, I've seen (none / 0) (#125)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:37:53 PM EST
    that ad. It's interesting that only in the south and the border states they have to run like this but then the south is in a lot of ways almost like another country within a country.

    Indeed (none / 0) (#73)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:23:18 AM EST
    A sight to behold.  
    Will he debate her? Can you imagine those two on stage together?  What a contrast.  Plus, she will annihilate him.

    This is going to be fun.


    I hope (none / 0) (#78)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:38:01 AM EST
    so. I saw some reports that the steam has also gone out of Ole Mitch. Maybe having to fight on two fronts is too much for him.

    What reports are those? (none / 0) (#79)
    by jbindc on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:07:07 AM EST
    Everything I've been reading shows him as prepared, invigorated, and ready to run against Grimes - already starting the attacks last night (just as she did).

    Here (none / 0) (#81)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:25:17 AM EST
    So, (none / 0) (#83)
    by jbindc on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:29:17 AM EST
    One liberally-biased small blog?

    But no major news outlet or anything like that - or any consensus opinion.

    Ok.  Got it.


    Very often the major outlets (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 11:03:57 AM EST
    completely ignore what is going on on the ground in states.

    And the major outlets put out there that the last Presidential election was a crazy horse race, and it wasn't.


    Yes (none / 0) (#94)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 11:10:23 AM EST
    thank you. The beltway media is reporting that the tea party lost here in GA and they did not. They made it to the runoff. They have no clue about who the tea party candidates even are.

    And then I ram my (none / 0) (#85)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:31:44 AM EST
    Ovipositor down your throat and lay my eggs in your chest.
    But I'm not an alien, um, I mean a REPUBLICAN.

    I'm not sure what that means (none / 0) (#86)
    by jbindc on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:45:35 AM EST
    But that's typical.

    Sorry (none / 0) (#88)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:48:41 AM EST
    but I don't do beltway nonsense. Of course though now even the beltway is admitting that the GOP has been taken over by the tea party.

    I know (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jbindc on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:55:43 AM EST
    It's better to read random bloggers for their take instead things like the Kentucky papers, the NYT, and pretty much every other publication.

    That's (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:57:27 AM EST
    not a random blogger but if you want to call it that go ahead. After all the beltway media has always been so accurate hasn't it?

    Ithink I prefer Charlie Pierce's take (5.00 / 2) (#95)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2014 at 11:34:01 AM EST
    on things:

    The basic lesson of last night's primary elections in several states is not to nominate morons. It is decidedly not the comeback of the "Establishment Republicans" because that myth depends vitally on two assertions that are demonstrably unproven in this political era: a) that "Establishment" somehow means "moderate," and b) that there is any such thing as a Republican establishment, or as a formal Republican party, for that matter. What happened in Kentucky, and in various other places where GOP statewide races were contested, was that one group of very conservative, very wealthy, very powerful people sponsored candidates who beat other candidates who were sponsored by other groups of very conservative, very wealthy, very powerful people. The idea that there is any kind of serious ideological difference worth caring about between a candidate backed by the Club For Growth and a candidate backed by the United States Chamber Of Commerce continues to be laughable. Mitch McConnell crushed Matt Bevin in Kentucky, not entirely because he was an incumbent, but because Bevin proved himself to be a dolt. Now, that might've flown in 2010, when Christine O'Donnell and Sharron Angle helped punt away a potential Republican majority in the Senate, or in 2012, when Richard Mourdock submarined Richard Lugar and led to a Democratic pickup in Indiana. But, this time around, being a crackpot seems to have been something of a liability.

    In Georgia, David Perdue self-financed his way into a runoff against Congressman Jack Kingston, who spent the entire campaign in Tea Party drag, probably because Georgia's Tea Party fiesta is really where the wild things are. Kingston will have no choice but to flank Perdue's campaign on the right during the nine weeks before the run-off election. (I am so looking forward to the video where Kingston pitches himself to the supporters of Phil Gingrey and Paul -- Lies From The Pit Of Hell -- Broun. This will require contortions that would tax the Cirque du Soleil.) This campaign could be conducted on an ideological spectrum that runs from Michelle Nunn, and her reluctance even to call herself a Democrat, to wherever it is on the dim starboard fringe that Kingston finally ends up. Or it will be Perdue and Nunn, racing toward some mythical "middle" which will warm the hearts of Sunday Showz centrists, but which will end up with either another Blue Dog in the Senate, or a reliable vote for doing nothing until 2014. But, hey, you impeachment fans! Bob Barr may be back in town. His cool head and calm, reasonable voice is just what the Republican House caucus needs these days. But I mention this only in passing, if you know what I mean, and I think you do.



    Charlie (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 11:48:40 AM EST
    is mostly right but he's making a mistake if he thinks Kingston is going to the be only one pandering to the far right in the GOP primary. If you look at the votes in totality about 70% of the votes in the primary went to tea party candidates. There is no way Perdue is not going to come out of the primary without signing onto all the crackpot tea party stances. He is going to have to go where the votes are if he wants to win the primary. Of course, all of this is probably going to render both of them unelectable when the general election rolls around.

    The most (none / 0) (#82)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:29:02 AM EST
    hysterical thing about McConnell is that he's campaigning against the "Washington Establishment" He IS the Washington Establishment. There's nobody more Washington Establishment than he and his wife Elanie Cho

    Yeah (none / 0) (#84)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:29:48 AM EST
    The attacks
    She is just a silly little girl who is only running because someone told her to.

    That'll work.


    And all (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:51:01 AM EST
    he talks about is Obama. Does he not realize that Obama is going to be out of office in two years and that Kentuckians are going to be stuck with him for six more?

    Man, his numbers are in the toilet too. 34/52 approve disapprove of him in their home state and if you listen to the beltway you would think McConnell crushed the tea party candidate but darn McConnell only got 60% of his own party's vote.


    First (none / 0) (#154)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 06:19:04 PM EST
    The KY version of Obamacare is very popular
    Second, she was Sec of State from a famous KY political family.
    He seems to think he is running against Ashley Judd.  She is not Ashley Judd and he is done.

    I hope (none / 0) (#160)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed May 21, 2014 at 07:03:46 PM EST
    you are right. I will be jumping around and dancing the day the turtle rides off into the sunset. Or maybe I should say crawl since that is what turtles do. LOL.

    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 358 (none / 0) (#74)
    by Dadler on Wed May 21, 2014 at 09:24:25 AM EST
    Here's a freakin doozy (none / 0) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 10:51:18 AM EST
    I don't know why the Air Force has some of the issues that it does.  Obviously it does though.  I tend to think it is a snob factory these days.  If you are Air Force though and the shoe doesn't fit don't wear it.  My brother in law is an Air Force officer and if he has a faith I don't know what it is.  And angelajean at DailyKos has become a good friend of mine and they are Air Force.  I got this link from her.

    Why is the Air Force struggling with such self perception problems though?  I think it is because they share in America's hero worship of military sacrifice right now, but they and their families as a whole do not sacrifice as much as the other branches do, not by a longshot.  And the hero worship is over the top anyhow, so now you have many people who have no idea what Army, Marine, and Navy families deal with and suffer through...and all the trauma, but they as a whole get the same kudos.  I think a lot of them have egos writing checks on accounts that they didn't earn.  Their egos are now so inflated they are delusional.

    Anyhow, the Air Force has a new regulation that Commanders have to keep their religion to themselves and now they are reviewing it because some Commanders are crying that it is unconstitutional.  The military isn't a democracy.

    Promotion boards had to ban those looking at promotion from wearing their masonic rings in their photographs, and your rater does not get to bring his/her religion into any work equation.  It isn't hard to figure out, it isn't hard to do, keep yer feckin religion to yourself.


    And the Air Force Academy open letter from this year's Anonymous Spartacus

    Someone needs to fire General Welsh!!!!!  If the Air Force has the time to entertain a debate of such phuckin nonsense they have too much free time/down time on their phuckin hands.  Downsize the ego inflated loser leadership, do it now.

    I would think it is a response (none / 0) (#103)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 12:48:40 PM EST
    To the creeping intrusion religion is getting used to wielding in all our lives.  I say good for the AF.

    Good that they passed the regulation (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by Militarytracy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 01:08:45 PM EST
    Not good that now they are telling Evangelical leaders and Republican politicians that they will review the rule.

    The Christian AF leadership that has taken over the Air Force Academy is apparently forcing gay cadets back into the closet too.  That "Christian" leadership has sway over your career right out of the Academy gates.  So they hide, and the atheists hide, and the pagans hide, anybody who isn't Christian hides in order to have a shot at the career they would like to have.  And they meet in private to support each other through the four tough years of the Air Force Academy and every year they elect a new leader from the senior class who becomes Spartacus.

    But you aren't supposed to have to have hidden groups in the military in order to survive serving.  That undermines morale and the true Air Force or whatever branch leadership structure.  That's why you can't have or belong to a gang in the military either, there are to be no hidden power and influence and agenda structures needed and they certainly aren't wanted.

    What you do in your free time out of uniform is your business, your uniform doesn't get to make your hobbies or chosen influences something that someone else has to deal with.


    Sulzberger's Public Statement (none / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 12:23:51 PM EST
    Until Saturday, Mr. Sulzberger had said only that her removal was due to "an issue with management in the newsroom." His new statement cited a pattern of behavior that included "arbitrary decision-making, a failure to consult and bring colleagues with her, inadequate communication and the public mistreatment of colleagues."

    Mr. Sulzberger said that he had wanted Ms. Abramson to succeed and had discussed these problems with her. But he ultimately concluded that "she had lost the support of her masthead colleagues and could not win it back." The decision to replace her, he said, was "for reasons having nothing to do with pay or gender."

    When asked about a nondisparagement clause in Ms. Abramson's termination agreement, a spokeswoman for The New York Times said only, "We're comfortable with the statement."


    Hmmm...so, do you take that to mean (none / 0) (#104)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2014 at 12:53:50 PM EST
    that it isn't "disparagement" if it's the truth?

    Or is it possible that the only one being held to non-disparagement is the employee?

    Looking around a bit online, and it seems like the majority of these clauses are to prohibit the terminated employee from disparaging the employer, not the other way around - although, there are agreements with mutual ND clauses.


    One Sided (none / 0) (#106)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 01:03:55 PM EST
    I took it to mean that the Statement by Sulzberger was not an emotional outburst but screened through legal, and in compliance with the agreement the NYT has with Abramson.

    But we will see..  Apart from the unprofessional and messy firing fiasco, I would be surprised if Sulzberger did not cover his and the NYT's vulnerability to legal action by Abramson.

    So it must have been a one way non-disparagement clause.
    And Abramson must have had reason enough to sign, whether it was heaps of $$ or wanting out ASAP, or both.  


    The more usual statement to the press re a termnat (none / 0) (#108)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2014 at 01:14:23 PM EST
    employee:  i cannot give you any information. Employee privacy rights. Exit.

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 01:29:53 PM EST
    It started out that way:

    Arthur O. Sulzberger Jr., the publisher of the paper and the chairman of The New York Times Company, told a stunned newsroom that had been quickly assembled that he had made the decision because of "an issue with management in the newsroom."

    But turned usual very quickly.

    Charges of gender discrimination leveled against the times, Abramson's abrupt dismissal, even though many were unhappy with her management style, it has been reported that no one expected dismissal (see stunned faces of staff in NYT photo), and Sulzberger's repartee in response to charges of sexism and gender discrimination.

    I guess it is hard to keep things all ahush, when the news is about such a big event at the NYT. The paper of record has many detractors and many supporters. And the issues that this touched on are red hot.


    In the wake of the firing (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 22, 2014 at 12:07:43 AM EST
    Shultzberger has been publicly attacking Abramson's character. What Gibson said was never denied by her. What everyone knows is a 'he said... and she did not comment' sort of situation. She has remained professional but he has not. It does call into question his management style.  

    Attacking her Character? (none / 0) (#182)
    by squeaky on Thu May 22, 2014 at 09:26:05 AM EST
    Sulzberger made two public statements about Abramson's firing.

    The first was that he fired her because of  "an issue with management in the newsroom."

    The second was a public statement, which is here.

    I do not see anything attacking Abramson's character in either statement. Please point out the character attacks you are referring to.


    He could have said nothing (5.00 / 1) (#188)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 22, 2014 at 11:12:03 AM EST
    No information at all. But he chose to state that there had a management problem. Of course he meant it was her problem. He did not say that his defining and then choosing sides was a problem. He had to know how that blaming her management would be talked about and possible interpretations of his statement.

    OK (none / 0) (#190)
    by squeaky on Thu May 22, 2014 at 11:34:49 AM EST
    But these were not character attacks, imo. People interpreted his words to be character attacks, i.e. that she was fired for being "pushy" etc..

    Yes he could have said nothing, but do you really think that had he said nothing that there would be no response by the media and blogoshpere alleging sexism?

    IMO, he would have had to explain his firing of Abramson, to defend charges of gender discrimination.


    If he had handled her firing differently (5.00 / 1) (#195)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 22, 2014 at 12:09:16 PM EST
    There would have been less alleging sexism. But it could not have been avoided entirely. The drama of firing her 5 years too early, and moving her managing editor into her position, the rumors of discord and then his statement. I think he acted emotionally and rashly. I think all the rumors of discord could easily be interpreted as having a sexist twinge.

    Really Doubt it (none / 0) (#197)
    by squeaky on Thu May 22, 2014 at 12:19:33 PM EST
    The first reports were that Abramson was fired because she brought in a lawyer to negotiate a salary that was commensurate with her male predecessors. That story was going to come out however Sulzberger fired her, imo.  

    4 managing editors in 12 years...  Rains was not fired (he was forced to resign) for Blair fiasco, but for poor management style, his staff disliked him intensely ... same for Rosenthal..  

    Difference between Raines and Abramson is that Sulzberger really liked Raines, but felt that the newspaper was falling apart due to Raines autocratic rule.  Raines agreed to resign (after bashing his newsroom on Charlie Rose)..

    Do you think that Sulzberger offered Abramson the chance to resign and she refused?

    Also Sulzbetger believed that Abrams flat-out lied to him about Gibson, which from his POV made a mess. Boquet was going to quit and he had supporters...  


    That flat out lie part (none / 0) (#198)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 22, 2014 at 12:29:28 PM EST
    is the 'he said....she did not comment' part. There is a quote from Gibson that she has not retracted calling that into question. Her lawyer did find pay discrepancies which were then corrected.

    Yes (none / 0) (#199)
    by squeaky on Thu May 22, 2014 at 01:02:42 PM EST
    Apparently Baquet met with Abramson and Gibson after she had negotiated with Gibson. Baquet claimed that he had no idea about the deal prior to the lunch but did not say anything during the lunch about his being left out.

    He was infuriated and immediately went to Sulzberger and told him about the play for Gibson. Sulzberger believed that Abramson lied to him because she told him that she had kept Baquet in the loop through the whole process.

    That is my understanding of the story. Gibson had no reason to believe that Baquet was not informed, as that was the first meeting with him and he did not let on that it was all news to him.

    As far as gender based pay discrepancies, that is disputed by Sulzberger.


    why on earth would she (none / 0) (#200)
    by ZtoA on Thu May 22, 2014 at 01:31:06 PM EST
    deliberately lie about something to her boss when he was going to find out anyway? She was Baquet's boss.

    This walks a thin line, imo (none / 0) (#111)
    by nycstray on Wed May 21, 2014 at 02:21:18 PM EST
    "an issue with management in the newsroom."

    Seems like they could have come up with an "agreed to part ways" statement between the 2 of them.


    Yes (none / 0) (#113)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 02:43:04 PM EST
    But not a thin line if the NYT was not obligated to say that they

    agreed to part ways

    Apart from being angry because Sulzberger though Abramson lied and put his paper in a bad situation with Gibson and Baquet, he was going to have to defend his action, as this was not something that was going to pass quietly in the night.

    IOW, Sulzberger had to worry about relationships within and with his newsroom and the reputation of the paper.


    Hope is checkbook is handy. I think he'll (none / 0) (#118)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:04:18 PM EST
    need it.

    Maybe he considered that, and decided (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:33:43 PM EST
    he had a decent chance of a win-win: getting rid of Abramson and making her unemployable - at least at the level of the vaunted NYT.

    Abramson just gave the  commencement address at Wake Forest, and after reading the transcript, thought she handled herself with good humor, and a fair amount of wisdom that was very relatable.  There may have even been a little bit of a Fk You in there for Pinch.

    I don't think she's anybody's fool.


    No, she certainly isn't (5.00 / 2) (#128)
    by NYShooter on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:49:41 PM EST
    ("anybody's fool.")

    I did find it very strange, and, unusual, the amount of not-so-subtle vitriol included in His public comments regarding the termination. It truly reeked of the powerful, established, white male executive. Abramson, it seemed to me, anyway, is just the kind of brash, powerful force that someone like Sulzberger just cannot tolerate. Kind of like the plantation owner, after Emancipation, saying to one of his freed slaves, "you may be free now, but, you will NEVER be equal."

    It's also the attitude we're growing here in the U.S......the 1%'ers vs all the rest


    UnEmployable? (none / 0) (#130)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:55:41 PM EST
    getting rid of Abramson and making her unemployable - at least at the level of the vaunted NYT.

    Sulzberger is no fool either. I am sure that he has no illusions about controlling the fate of Jill Abramson. She has brought the paper four pulitzer prizes in less than three years and has by all accounts tremendous integrity. She is a superstar who will be able to work wherever she wants.

    The fact that she made enemies and the fact that many of her co-workers did not like her is not a negative. She is tough, gets the job done, and does not pull punches.

    I believe that Abramson is in the class of people who will have as much work wherever she wants as long as she wants it, imo.


    Yes (none / 0) (#123)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:32:16 PM EST
    We disagree on that one..  but we'll soon see, won't we!

    Non-Disparagement (none / 0) (#127)
    by squeaky on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:45:17 PM EST
    Has The Times lacked transparency in its handling of the change, as others are complaining? Both sides have signed a non disparagement agreement; that's normal these days.

    Margaret Sullivan NYT Public Editor


    Wow. (none / 0) (#131)
    by oculus on Wed May 21, 2014 at 04:00:04 PM EST
    Just when you thought it could not get worse (none / 0) (#116)
    by ragebot on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:03:13 PM EST
    football players taking drugs is so last week, but who knew the announcers were taking pain killers too

    according to Madden

    Ya know, if I had to blather about football for (5.00 / 1) (#120)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:07:03 PM EST
    hours at a time, and listen to others blathering, I would be taking pain killers too.

    John Madden made me reach for (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Anne on Wed May 21, 2014 at 03:43:53 PM EST
    something to stop the pain of his endless yemmering about the obvious.

    And while Jon Gruden often offers more substantive insights in his commentary, he often makes me just scream, "Shuuuuuut uuuuuuup!" at the TV.

    The worst for me is commentators so enamored of their own little discussion, they completely forget there's a game going on.


    I used to love fottball, but it is unwatchable (none / 0) (#133)
    by ruffian on Wed May 21, 2014 at 04:34:31 PM EST
    these days, with all the commercial time outs and yammering. I don't have 4 hours to invest in that on a Sunday. I could watch 5 episodes of Game of Thrones!

    I've found radio is a nice (none / 0) (#145)
    by nycstray on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:28:08 PM EST
    cure for that. They actually have to tell you about the game going on :)

    I am sure the announcers... (none / 0) (#136)
    by kdog on Wed May 21, 2014 at 04:45:44 PM EST
    are not the only ones taking advantage of their access to the culture...if I worked at Giants Stadium I'd be all up in the medicine cabinet, if the trainer would have me.

    House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (none / 0) (#141)
    by KeysDan on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:10:29 PM EST
    named five Democrats to the House Benghazi panel: Elijah Cummings (MD), Adam Smith (WA), Adam Schiff (CA), Linda Sanchez (CA), and Tammy Duckworth (IL).  

    Saw this (none / 0) (#142)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:14:49 PM EST
    That's a pretty good crew.  Part of me would still have preferred Graysonpallozza

    Yes, but I think that was (none / 0) (#149)
    by KeysDan on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:40:05 PM EST
    just what Mrs. Pelosi wanted to avoid.  Rather, let the pallozza     stay with the Republicans--after all that is their strength.    Overall, I continue to believe that this is the right call given the circumstances and alternative.

    I'm sure (none / 0) (#150)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 05:44:42 PM EST
    You are right.  This is the right way to go.  And why I am not minority leader.

    Art history (none / 0) (#169)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 08:46:38 PM EST
    Love Kahlo (none / 0) (#170)
    by CaptHowdy on Wed May 21, 2014 at 08:47:51 PM EST
    SEE WHAT I MEAN!! (none / 0) (#201)
    by NYShooter on Thu May 22, 2014 at 02:25:53 PM EST
    We're just starting to rock, and, BAM, 200 limit!

    I gotta go on the road for a while, but, don't anyone dare move.....I'll be back.

    Love you all, and, I can't wait to get into it with you.

    I think you're gonna find that all the insurmountable differences everyone has experienced will not seem so insurmountable later on.

    Ciao, y'all.