Saturday Open Thread

A weekend with no work, I'm contemplating the possibilities. Farmers Market, Pilates, and some non-Zimmerman writing.

If you have any suggestions for crime or politics stories, please let me know.

I also may do none of these and watch for the arrival of Princess Kate's baby. (not really.)

Here's an open thread, all topics welcome besides Zimmerman. When his last threads get full, I'll put up a Zimmerman thread and try to keep out of it.

Hope you have a great weekend planned. Whats best at the farmer's market this time of year?

< Obama on Zimmerman: Part II | R.I.P. Helen Thomas >
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    Heatng the espresso machine for my (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by ruffian on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 06:31:53 AM EST
    Saturday dog-park latte, then off to the park for the "cool" part of the day.  Very relaxing walking the park while the dogs play. There is a group of regulars and do fine until someone brings up politics or you-know-what. I think I would not be so dug in on ykw if so many of the same people I argue politics with were not arrayed on the other side. We are a very diverse group socially but start from the common ground of loving dogs - then it is interesting to see the divide when someone brings up Obamacare, crime-and-punishment, or any sort of political issue. That's when I take another walk around the park.

    After that....back indoors for the rest of the day. Just too oppressive outside. I am finished Tom Wolfe's latest book 'Back to Blood',- disappointing,but some good parts. Ready to start the new Carl Hiassen since I am on a Florida kick due to the national focus back on this area.

    Have a good weekend folks!

    I read "Back to Blood" but (none / 0) (#9)
    by oculus on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:14:02 AM EST
    cannot remember what it is about. Must check.
    I am listening tom"The Round House," by Louise Erdrich. Intriguing.

    I think it is about too many things (none / 0) (#16)
    by ruffian on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:00:30 AM EST
    and ends up being about nothing in particular. I won't remember most of it a week from now either!

    I have friends that liked "The Round House"...it is on my list.


    Erdrich is one of my favorites (none / 0) (#42)
    by shoephone on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:46:15 PM EST
    I'm looking forward to reading "The Round House." her previous book "The Plague of Doves" was brilliant, IMO.  

    Thanks. I',ll check it out mext. (none / 0) (#110)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 06:26:32 PM EST
    Have you read Isabel Allende's "Maya's Notebook"?

    Is it good? (none / 0) (#111)
    by ruffian on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 08:24:41 PM EST
    I've read a lot of her books- usually like them a lot.

    I have it from the library in hardback. But I just (none / 0) (#112)
    by oculus on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 09:17:06 PM EST
    finished Paul Theroux's "The Last Train to Zona Verde" and am reading Stefan Zweig's "The World of Yesterday," published in 1942.

    I Know Your Post... (none / 0) (#115)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 09:36:11 AM EST
    ...was more about the people than the dog, but yesterday I just about killed my dog.  We normally go for 3+ mile hike on Sunday mornings, but yesterday there was a light rain and I decided to go 6.  She seemed fine, walked into the house like no big deal, had a huge drink of water, and crashed right there.  When she finally moved, it was like an inch at a time she was limping so much.

    She was much better this morning, but it makes me sad, I really have not ever seen her looking so pitiful.  Yesterday I had to bring her food to where I eventually moved her, which was a doggie bed at the food of my couch.  We normally knock 3 miles like nothing, and of all days, yesterday (with the drizzle) was easily one of the coolest of the summer.

    No real point, just love my dog and hate to see her in not being herself.


    I hope your dog stays well for a long, long time (5.00 / 1) (#116)
    by christinep on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 05:21:20 PM EST
    Take good care of her.

    So sorry Scot W714 (none / 0) (#121)
    by ZtoA on Thu Jul 25, 2013 at 08:11:03 PM EST
    Hoe she recovers. My kitty, who is a "share kitty" is sick and I had to leave her for a trip. She was my friend's kit but she was to allergic to keep her (my human friend that is) and Kit is old and now sick. I've come to love that kit and her getting sick when I'm gone has been distressing. Best of luck with your friend dog.

    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 73 (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Dadler on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 08:21:48 AM EST
    Pete would love to put on some sexy western wear for Hank, but the ol' homestead beckons. (link)

    Vol. 72
    Vol. 71
    Vol. 70
    And a rerun, Vol. 6

    Hope these things are keeping some people chuckling. Laughing hard would be best. But you can't bust all the guts all the time, I suppose.

    Flying to L.A. in a few hours for a 48-hour lost weekend with an old friend. John Lennon, fill me now. Ahem.

    Peace and happy trails this fin de semana, mi amigos.

    Might be a while before I nap (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by ruffian on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 08:34:57 AM EST
    on an airplane again. Holy hell.

    Judge Lind's refusal (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 08:45:22 AM EST
    to throw out 'aiding the enemy' charge against Bradley Manning is a red flag for journalists.

    any person who aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or without proper authority, knowingly harbors or protects or gives intelligence to, or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly.

    It's meant to be broad and all-encompassing, and it certainly is.

    Congress is supposedly working on a shield law and it's gonna be fun watching them agree on a definition for journalist.

    I'd pay a dollar to watch

    It is not a red flag for journalists at all (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:26:44 PM EST
    Manning did what he did when he was uniform and an MI analyst in a war zone.  Different laws, different rules, different sworn oaths (do journalists have sworn oaths?), different jobs

    How do you read the directive? (none / 0) (#54)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:33:45 PM EST
    This is not just about Manning.  See the reference to Risen?

    They're capturing data with a gill-net, and they apply the same fishing strategy for journos who print what they proscribe.


    Jesus Christ (none / 0) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 06:24:03 PM EST
    One is a military court and judge trying a soldier, and the other is not.

    Snowden leaked much worse things than Manning ever thought of.  Wonder why the time he faces is so much less?  Because he is a civilian and will be tried as a civilian in such a court of law.

    Military law is not civilian law.  Something that really ought to be understood a little better, and then people would also understand better WHY civilian contractors are used by say the NSA.  Because they aren't accountable for obeying "illegal" orders then.


    And Manning is never going to dump (none / 0) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:22:47 PM EST
    That charge because what he gave to wikileaks and what was initially dumped included names of some of sources in Afghanistan and their villages and locations.  In a horrific panic, the military had to immediately go over the dump and relocate families in Afghanistan.  To their credit, they were able to claim shortly thereafter that to their knowledge, nobody who was named had come to harm.  Have they since then though?  I don't know.  But he is never shedding that charge, not ever.

    Boy, (2.33 / 3) (#77)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:29:15 PM EST
    you've sure got a bun-on over Manning.  What are you trying to prove to yourself?

    I feel sorry for Manning (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:33:08 PM EST
    I think his command let him down in the worst way, I think DADT played a part in his state of mind too and what it was doing to his career, but the military during a time of war is always going to have zero tolerance for what he did and that will never change.  Nor should it.

    He is being charged and tried under a completely different system and jurisdiction, and very different standards than any civilian leaker or reporter.


    And the DOJ is trying to force James Risen (none / 0) (#44)
    by shoephone on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:53:17 PM EST
    to testify. Holder is claiming Risen has no legal basis for refusing.

    The first, fourth, and fifth amendments have all been thrown out the window.

    Sources, schmources.


    Helen Thomas has died (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by jbindc on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:36:51 AM EST
    CNN & James Clapper are now holed up (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:53:48 AM EST
    in the Moscow airport transit zone since leaking this morning the secret details of a top secret court that nobody knows about secretly renewing a top secret secret surveillance program that nobody knows about.

    Obama pouted and demanded this morning that Putin secretly hand over Clappers head on a platter and secretly extradite CNN, warning that Russia will suffer secret 'serious consequences' for non-compliance, especially if he publicly embarrasses Obama by giving him the finger without keeping it a secret.

    Until this morning both the secret court and the secret surveillance program had been secret secrets secretly guarded by secret secret agents.

    These secrets agents are pros. Nobody knew about this secret surveillance program. Especially all the terrists secretly swimming across the oceans by the billions with knives in their teeth they are protecting you from with this secret sureveillance program that nobody knows about. Boy will they be in for a shock if they ever find out they were secretly spied on. By secret pros. Who can keep secrets secret, cuz they are pros. You know? No, you don't know. It's a secret, see.

    Heads will roll over this. I mean eyes.

    I'm speechless. Words fail me.

    Whoa (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:59:27 AM EST
    In an unprecedented disclosure, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence said it had decided to declassify and announce the program renewal, which occurs periodically but is never publicized.

    It's a breakthrough.  Imagine the transparency we've been granted by our betters.  This truly is the most transparent administration evah


    I've secretly (2.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:02:14 AM EST
    never had any problem seeing through this transparent administration.

    When did you see? (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:12:31 AM EST
    I voted for the poseur twice becuz, 'paper or plastic, sir?'

    About July 2007 (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:20:05 AM EST
    Interesting that (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:05:15 PM EST
    CNN's comment moderators have so far refused to approve and publish that comment since I posted it on their article.

    I wonder why? :-)


    How could anyone (5.00 / 4) (#47)
    by CoralGables on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 01:24:23 PM EST
    write about a 200 word comment and close it out with

    "I'm speechless. Words fail me."

    Obviously not.


    Well.... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 02:15:36 PM EST
    the, uhhhmmm, 'technical' term for it is "bait". To give people who need to avoid the issues the comment is about something to bite on and show themselves.

    F.A.A. - Don't shoot the drones (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:59:23 AM EST
    The FAA released a statement in response to questions about an ordinance under consideration in the tiny farming community of Deer Trail, Colo., that would encourage hunters to shoot down drowns. The administration reminded the public that it regulates the nation's airspace, including the airspace over cities and towns.

    A drone "hit by gunfire could crash, causing damage to persons or property on the ground, or it could collide with other objects in the air," the statement said. "Shooting at an unmanned aircraft could result in criminal or civil liability, just as would firing at a manned airplane." link

    Phillip Steel, author of the proposal, dismissed the FAA's warning with "The FAA doesn't have the power to make a law," he said.

    While I think it is unlikely that people in Deer Trail will have the opportunity to shoot at drones, I believe that Steel is operating under an illusion that the FAA needs to create a new law rather than using one already on the books.

    Tour de France (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:49:35 AM EST
    has been riveting me.

    Here's the comment.  GEICO Motorcycle insurance has an ad that that runs during the broadcast.  It features the Allman Brothers' "Midnight Rider" as a background track.  I wonder if GEICO is aware that two members of the Allman Brothers Band died in motorcycle accidents.

    Duane Allman and Barry Oakley.. (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:55:54 AM EST
    The ad agency folks possibly went to the same school as those NJ cops who never heard of Bob Dylan..

    Accidents (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:56:19 AM EST
    Maybe they paid out big time..  so I can see the slogan:

    insure your self with Geico at low rates, when you die we pay top dollar.


    RIP Helen Thomas (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:54:33 AM EST
    Awww.... (5.00 / 6) (#37)
    by desertswine on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:13:45 PM EST
    Famous nice dog dies.  That's a wonderful photo.

    20 years old. What a bond that is. (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by ruffian on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 01:16:44 PM EST
    Awwwwww (none / 0) (#38)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:20:33 PM EST

    Farmer's Market in Miami -- Tropical Fruits (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Michael Masinter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:46:42 PM EST
    Mangoes, Lychees, Mamey Sapotes and other tropical fruits are in season in south Florida.  But no vegetables; tomato season ends in April when the nights get too hot for tomatoes to set fruit.  Growing vegetables in south Florida is strictly a wintertime operation.  But the wide array of tropical fruits make up for that.  We have six mango trees bearing five varieties of mangoes from May until October, two lychee trees, a mamey sapote tree, an atemoya tree, a caimito tree, and a sapodilla tree.  

    Are you a customer.. (none / 0) (#49)
    by unitron on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 02:29:03 PM EST
    ...or on the other side of the financial relationship?

    Just a home grower (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by Michael Masinter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:22:48 PM EST
    I am a mango junkie, and planted my six trees after trying dozens of varieties to find out which were the most flavorful and free of annoying fibers, and would bear at different times.  I planted all the other trees for their fruit as well.  We grow for home consumption and to share with friends.  When (rarely) a particular tree produces more than we can give away, we'll let someone pick the excess to sell.  I also have bananas, monstera deliciosa.

    I lost many fruit trees to Hurricane Andrew in 1992, but a couple survived, and I planted more in the years afterword, and all survived the later hurricanes except for my avocado tree which was destroyed by Hurricane Wilma in 2005.  

    There are plenty of markets here that sell the more common tropical fruits; I have even seen rambutans, too cold sensitive to grow here, but I can't grow or even find mangosteens, said to be among the most delicious of all tropical fruits.


    what do you think of (none / 0) (#91)
    by Jeralyn on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 02:46:32 AM EST
    champagne mangoes? I love mangoes. We don't have mango trees here that I know of. I just looked at the mango in my kitchen and it's organic from Mexico and they were 10 for !0.00, even if you just bought 2.

    Agree about the Haas avocados. About 20 years ago I split an avocado  pit with a toothpick and put it in glass of water. I read somewhere that's how you start an avocado tree. Months later, it looked exactly the same and I gave up on it.

    I just looked up the mangosteen you talked about. It's supposed to be extremely healthy and filled with anti-oxidants. People sell the juice but very few people sell the fruit. They are selling on Amazon for $70 for five. Then I started looking at where they are grown in Thailand/Malaysia and had to stop myself from booking a trip to the Mangosteen Ayurvedic Spa in Phuket.


    Champagne mangoes (none / 0) (#92)
    by Michael Masinter on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 09:49:05 AM EST
    Champagne mangoes are grown commercially in  southern and central Mexico, and are thought to have originated as a south Florida cultivar.  Until recently, they were known as Ataulfo mangoes, but it's easier to market them nationally with an appealing name, and some marketing genius hit on the idea of calling them Champagne mangoes  (good luck growing them in northeastern France).  They are better than other commercially available imported  early season mangoes, with little to no fiber and a pretty good flavor.  When I have tried them from Costco and local grocery stores, some have been better than others, but when good they are better than no mangoes and far better than Tommy Atkins, the early season variety to avoid despite its luscious appearance.

    As the national imported mango market grows more sophisticated and Florida's commercial production continues to decline, Champagnes, Kents, and Keitts are the dominant good varieties imported from Mexico.  Glenns are unlikely to catch on even as a commercial variety grown in Mexcio because they have a thin skin, a short shelf life, and only modest color.  


    But no Avocados? (none / 0) (#50)
    by CoralGables on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 02:47:40 PM EST
    Curious, since stores rarely list a type...what would you say are the best South Florida mangoes for taste (not for shipping but off the tree). And if you have an opinion on avocados I'll take that too.

    My favorites (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Michael Masinter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:42:44 PM EST
    For early bearing, I am a big fan of Glenn mangoes.  For midsummer and beyond, Kent, though a commercial variety, is excellent, and for late summer, Keitt, also a commercial variety, is very good.  For a desert mango, I grow Nam Doc Mai; it is very sweet even by mango standards. I also have an Edwards tree, which produces excellent fruit but does not have good yield.  None has any fiber, which sets them apart from the old standby of south Florida, the Haden.  But new varieties are appearing, and I haven't kept up with all of them; here's a link worth reading.  Whatever you do, don't plant a Tommy Atkins; the fruit looks lovely but is full of fiber and not at all tasty.

    My favorite local avocado variety is Kampong, a Guatemalan cultivar that produces fruit from November to March.  Hurricanes Katrina and Wilma combined to kill mine, and I never replanted. No avocado that grows here can match the taste and quality of a Haas Avocado from California or Mexico or Chile; they are readily available year round in local grocery stores.

    I also have a geffner atemoya tree; the fruit is delicious but it requires some work since it has no natural pollinator here.  That means going out in the evening in April when it blooms to hand pollinate it for fruit in late August and September.  It is a hybrid produced from a cherimoya and a sugar apple; I have also grown sugar apples, another victim of the 2005 storms.


    Wow. How long does it take to hand pollinate? (none / 0) (#57)
    by shoephone on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:46:15 PM EST
    And how exactly is that done?

    Hand pollination (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Michael Masinter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:01:41 PM EST
    Atemoyas have hermaphroditic flowers with a two day life cycle; they open as an elongated three petal female flower during the afternoon and convert to a male the following afternoon; the conversion is easy to recognize since the flower petals are only slightly open in the female stage, but open wide the next afternoon to expose pollen in the male stage.  Hand pollination just requires a small artist's paint brush; gather the pollen from a male flower on the tip of the brush, and insert the tip of the brush into the female flower, depositing the pollen.  The hardest part is putting up with the sexual jokes your friends are bound to make.

    I wish (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:30:46 PM EST
    Pollen could really be a pigment. But it is fugative and not good as dye stuff either in the long run. It is wonderful stuff tho.

    Fascinating! (none / 0) (#69)
    by shoephone on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:07:06 PM EST
    Definitely a time-sensitive action.

    Thank you (none / 0) (#65)
    by CoralGables on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:47:21 PM EST
    Am I correct that mangoes are best when ripening on the tree making them less tasty when picked green and shipped (sorry northerners), but avocadoes it doesn't matter because they don't ripen until off the tree?

    Depends on the variety (none / 0) (#70)
    by Michael Masinter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:11:19 PM EST
    Kent mangoes should be picked before they ripen; if you wait until a Kent has begun to soften, it will have already begun to decay around the seed and the taste will have deteriorated.  Pick Kents when they are fully grown but still firm and let them ripen indoors.  Glenn, Edwards, Nam Doc Mai and others can be left to ripen on the tree if you like, though if you wait too long fruit rats will take their share.

    Glenns are ripe now (none / 0) (#73)
    by Michael Masinter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 06:07:23 PM EST

    Because of the unusually warm December, January, and February, followed the by the unusually cold March, my Glenn mangoes that would normally have set fruit in January and ripened from mid May to mid June set fruit in March are just now ripening.  If you want to try one to see whether it suits your taste, email me at masinter@nova.edu and I'll send instructions on how and when to get here.  


    Michael, you should be Mango Man (none / 0) (#102)
    by fishcamp on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 12:54:40 PM EST
    and thanks for all the great info.  I have actually grown papayas by just throwing the seeds off the porch.  Just when the papayas get ripe the raccoons climb up and get them.  You must be fighting off the creatures with all your various jungle fruits.  BTW I live on Sapodilla Drive in the Keys and have yet to spot a Sapodilla tree.

    Fruit / Roof Rats, Squirrels (none / 0) (#107)
    by Michael Masinter on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 03:18:34 PM EST
    Are the only pests of consequence, and they are more of an annoyance than a real pest.  There's not much to be done beyond pruning trees away from wires, leaving some space between trees, and accepting that they will take a small percentage of fruit no matter what you do.  I think some have nested in coconut trees.  Given the choice between fruit/roof rats and the Norway rats that are ubiquitous in northern cities, I'll take the fruit rats.

    Monk parakeets and the many varieties of parrots occasionally get a mango, but all birds are welcome in my yard.

    Although the middle and lower keys never suffer frosts or freezes, it's still tough to grow fruits in the smaller keys because of the salt.  Key West is the exception; breadfruit trees, too cold sensitive for south Dade, flourish there.  


    Michael, would you mind sharing how (none / 0) (#113)
    by vml68 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 10:19:01 PM EST
    large your yard is to accommodate all those trees.

    Trouble in Vatican City, trouble with capital T-- (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:20:44 PM EST
    and a capital O (Of their own making):  To reform the mysterious and troubled Vatican BanK, Pope Francis, on June 15, appointed a trusted Vatican prelate, Archbishop Batista Ricca, to oversee management.

    At the time, Msgr. Ricca was director of several  Vatican residences including the one at which the pope now resides as well as one at which he stayed  while still  a cardinal.

    The Italian weekly, L' Expresso, is claiming that Prelate Ricca had an embarrassing stay while on diplomatic assignment a decade ago at the Vatican embassy in Mentevideo, Uruguay, including an affair with a Swiss Guard and  encounters with local hustlers. A Vatican spokesman brushed off the story as not credible, but L'Espresso is firm in its reporting.

     Following Italian media reports last February that a secret report by cardinals that there were blackmail attempts against gay clergyman, Pope Francis was quoted as saying, "..there is talk of a gay lobby and its true, it exists."  (The "gay lobby" was not defined, although it is assumed it did not refer to a tastefully decorated foyer.)  

    The "leak" about Msgr. Ricca is thought by some as a means of undermining the Pope's efforts to reform the bank.   This latest news follows the sudden resignations of the bank's director-general and vice-director after the arrest of Vatican accountant, Msgr. Nunzio Scarano, on a money-laundering charge.

    Undermining Won't Work, IMO (none / 0) (#55)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:34:34 PM EST
    The "leak" about Msgr. Ricca is thought by some as a means of undermining the Pope's efforts to reform the bank.

    Everyone knows that Gay men are really good at bank management, not to mention being prelates..  not to mention guarding Swiss stuff..   and just wait and see how many come out of the closet when they find out that god is gay.


    The Vatican Bank does seem to associate itself (none / 0) (#62)
    by KeysDan on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:19:24 PM EST
    with some colorful bankers--the color coming not just from those flowing red robes. Paul Marcinkus, a former president of the Vatican Bank, and a favorite of Pope Paul VI,  his bodyguard and travel advance man,  was involved, in 1982, in a colossal, multi-$billion collapse of  the largest Italian bank at the time, Banco Ambrosiano.

    Roberto Calvi, Banco Ambrosiano's president, who was referred to as "God's Banker" for his interrelationships with the Vatican,  was found hanged amid mysterious circumstances from Blackfriars Bridge in London.

     Archbishop Marcinkus was charged by Italian authorities in the fraud that involved dummy companies, but was accorded immunity.  Marcinkus's moral defense was that "you can't run a church on Hail Marys."

    The Vatican denied charges of wrongdoing but did pay $244 million to Banco Ambrosiano creditors.  Perhaps serving as a role model for present day Wall Street banksters, Marcinkus remarked that "I may be a lousy banker, but, at least I am not in jail."


    Colorful Indeed! (none / 0) (#64)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:43:51 PM EST
    Paul Marcinkus, the papal bodyguard dubbed "The Gorilla" and a titular archbishop...

    "You can't run a church on Hail Marys."

    his leathery face and habit of chain-smoking his pipe and cigarettes simultaneously.

    Later, so-called "letters of comfort" surfaced, reputedly showing the archbishop's guarantee of protecting bank creditors' investments.

    The Italian government issued an arrest order for the archbishop and two bank subordinates as "accessories to fraudulent bankruptcy," but the Vatican, an independent state, refused to comply and cited diplomatic immunity. The Italian high court agreed, allowing the archbishop to avoid standing trial.

    Amazing...  I guess some things may be changing with Francis:

    Francis has also ordered that Vatican City adopt international norms to prevent transnational criminal activities.

    `It is ... necessary for the international community to adopt adequate legal instruments to prevent and counter criminal activities, by promoting international judicial cooperation on criminal matters,'

    Until now Vatican City has had the lowest age of consent in Europe despite decades of child sex scandals within the church, while sex between people of the same sex has been legal in the city state since 1889. -....

    Vatican City's equal age of consent is being raised from 12 to 18 following the announcement of an overhaul of the Catholic Church's criminal code by Pope Francis.

    Oh but wait:

    However Francis has also made it a crime for agents of the church to leak Vatican information after Vatican butler to Pope Benedict XVI, Paolo Gabriele, leaked information about corruption within the Catholic church - potentially discouraging whistleblowers.



    The Real Deal?.....I Think, Maybe Yes (none / 0) (#114)
    by NYShooter on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 04:01:58 AM EST
    During the internal debates of choosing the next Pope I did some nominal reading regarding the probable contenders. And, the more I read the more I was drawn to Francis. Many things, such as his progressive views Re: gays, were overtly positive. But, maybe even more importantly, he expressed a skeptical, even enlightened position on issues that had been anathema for Catholics since their founding.

    On Atheism: (from a speech on Vatican radio)
    "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!

    The choir: `Father, the atheists?'

    Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good.

    The choir: `But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!'

    But do good: we will meet one another there."

    Link to whole speech


    Carter's still real (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:50:58 PM EST

    He calls them as he sees them.  USG and NSA

    hope i did the link ok.

    No link. (none / 0) (#59)
    by shoephone on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 03:58:50 PM EST
    Meh (none / 0) (#61)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:05:50 PM EST
    Sem's link (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:32:39 PM EST
    Thank, man. (5.00 / 3) (#67)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:01:01 PM EST
    I do have a smart-phone, but I'm not smart.

    Thanks! (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by shoephone on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:05:49 PM EST
    congrats to Jeralyn (5.00 / 3) (#79)
    by ZtoA on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:45:38 PM EST
    for creating a most unique website.

    I'm not stating my opinions on the case that shall not be mentioned in this thread, but I have to say I've learned a lot and have had my mind opened because of that case.

    Where else on the internet will you find a site that tolerates dissenting voices? (with exceptions for some legal issues) Where else will you find pretty much the entire spectrum of political views debated without banning? And the long-timers get open threads where topics such as food, pets, movies, entertainment and gardening gives political opponents a chance to be human together? Seriously, I have not found a single other site that has intelligent debate from a huge range of people with expertise in a huge range of fields with a range of political views.

    I am often offended by comments, but I do read them and consider them. There ARE conversations here - which is rather extraordinary. Thanks J

    thank you Z to A (none / 0) (#86)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:19:24 PM EST
    that was great to read. And, I agree with you. I spend hours moderating comments to keep them like a conversation. Contrary to what many people think, they are not censored for point of view. Comments are deleted for insults, name-calling, false statements misrepresented as facts, sniping at others and profanity. All of those interfere with the purpose of comments, which is for readers to be able to discuss views about the topic of the post, civilly and without fear of being attacked.  

    That's a great point about the music, food and gardening open threads. I think they do work to create common ground between readers and perhaps foster a bit more tolerance when they express their political views.

    Again, thanks for your comment.


    Is this blog (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by Politalkix on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 08:13:46 PM EST
    Talk Left or Talk Right or Talk Defense?
    Based on analysis coverage that I have seen here, it is Talk Defense. The analysis is not even-handed, it is J's blog and she is not under any obligation to provide an even handed analysis. It is going to present arguments with a goal to win at all cost for the defense side.

    This means that
    (1) in the Martin-Zimmermann trial, J would go all out to show the defendant Zimmermann in positive light and put a dead teenager, Martin, on trial
    (2) in Dominique Strauss Kahn (defendant) Vs Nafitassou Diallo, she would downplay every past egregious behavior of Strauss Kahn or argue that it was irrelevant to the case and post anything that would undermine Diallo's credibility.
    (3) if Wall Street banksters are ever going to get prosecuted, they will be defendants. This means that all wall street crimes will get downplayed to defend the "rights of the accused" and the middle class and poor people who got affected by these crimes will be made to walk over hot charcoal in this blog (credibility questioned, minor infractions highlighted, etc).
    (4) if Bin Laden was not killed but arrested and put on trial (as J and other defense lawyers wanted) in a criminal court, my understanding is that this blog would do its best to downplay the heinousness of his crimes (since Bin Laden was going to be the defendant) and make arguments about how the prosecution was over reaching.  

    This is my take on this blog (after being here for 5 years). J can correct me if I am wrong in my assessment. I hope that others understand the Talk Defense aspect of the blog and not view this blog as taking an even-handed approach. As another poster already said, the goal of this blog is not obtaining justice or fairness for everyone who is victimized by a crime, it is about obtaining justice for the defendant, based on a defense lawyer's perspective.

    I view all cases through the (5.00 / 3) (#85)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:11:53 PM EST
    lens of the Constitution and yes, I present the defense point of view. That's clearly stated on our About page and always has been.

    This is absolutely not a crime-victim's site and I have said that many times. If that's what you are looking for, you are at the wrong site. Everything else you write is wrong.

    The factual information on this site is accurate. If I make a mistake and its called to my attention or notice it myself, I correct it.

    TalkLeft is undoubtedly one of the most extensively sourced sites anywhere, with links to the documents that show where the reported facts come from. In many cases, I hunt down the actual document to be able to link to it rather than just linking to a news articles (which often get details of court cases wrong) or pay for access and upload it so readers can read it themselves.

    If you want the facts, you will find them here, reported accurately. You will also find how I view those facts, which is my opinion, presented from the defense point of view, on those cases I care to opine on.

    I also write extensively about crime policy, legislation pertaining to crime, court decisions and many politicians' records on crime issues.   Again, all sourced. I also extensively use Lexis Nexis and upload documents. Many of the policy posts come from transcripts of congressional hearings, again, all sourced.

    Very few writers do as much research or provide as much source material as I do on so many topics. My PACER bills for TalkLeft alone (not my law practice) run in the hundreds of dollars a month. The case law I use comes from Lexis and is shepardized (so that I can be sure the case is still good law.) That is not a free service so it's something non-lawyers would not have access to. They can search on google, but they don't get the case history. Or the law review articles on the topic. Or the statutes with the most recent updates.

    How many bloggers writing about cases in foreign countries do you think take the time to translate that country's laws (sometimes paragraph by paragraph in google translater or read and translate foreign news articles?  

    I have not changed the focus of the site or its coverage in 11 years. It works for me, and this is a hobby, not a job.

    I take your comment as close to an insult. Do not repeat it as insults are not allowed here.


    FL Gov Rick Scott has declared today a day (5.00 / 4) (#93)
    by ruffian on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 11:13:41 AM EST
    of prayer for unity.

    Sorry, I am not about to pray to be united with Rick Scott on anything.

    I will pray to the sun god for mercy. Turn off the heat lamp, please.

    Something positive (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by ruffian on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 11:24:38 AM EST
    This made me smile today: Couple wounded in Aurora shooting marries on anniversary. My sincere best wishes to them.

    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 74 (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Dadler on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 12:57:04 PM EST
    It's Sunday, let's get REALLY dark and inappropriate (link).

    And the rest of last week's comics, in case you missed any:

    Vol. 73
    Vol. 72
    Vol. 71
    Vol. 70
    Vol. 69
    Vol. 68

    Nate Silver (none / 0) (#1)
    by jbindc on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 06:21:06 AM EST
    Leaving the NYT and going to ESPN.

    He will also contribute to ABC News' election coverage.

    WTF? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 08:47:38 AM EST

    Pilates for sure, but (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dexter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:06:40 AM EST
    I have been fascinated by the CA mansion death.  It's at best a civil suit right now.  From the face of it, I find it hard to believe it's a suicide but who knows?  


    With my cereal (none / 0) (#4)
    by scribe on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:31:11 AM EST
    I'm having raspberries I just picked in the back yard - still a bit warm from the sun.

    The "dead witness in the Whitey Bulger case" is looking to me like some combination of heat and maybe heart disease.  His body was found on a path through a wooded area some distance from his home on one of the hottest days of the summer.  The dead putative witness was supposedly not going to be called to testify b/c another government witness had earlier testified contrary to what the now-dead putative witness would have testified to.  You'll recall the now-dead guy's story was to the effect of "Whitey needed a legitimate source of income, so he made me an offer I couldn't refuse to sell him the South Boston liquor store I owned."  Unfortunately, the now-dead putative witness made a very loud, public show during his life of wanting to get revenge on Whitey through testifying, making himself into prime cross-examination fodder, a textbook example of bias.

    Of course, if and when it comes back "natural causes" no one will really believe it and it will all become part of the Ledgend of Whitey.

    Panama sends Lady to U.S. not Italy (none / 0) (#10)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:28:53 AM EST
    (Reuters) - Former CIA Milan station chief Robert Seldon Lady, who was convicted in Italy of kidnapping an Egyptian Muslim cleric and detained in Panama this week, returned to the United States on Friday, a State Department spokeswoman said.
    Marie Harf, a State Department spokeswoman, said she had no details on whether Lady would be questioned by U.S. authorities, or whether the United States would cooperate with Italy on the case.

    A Panamanian foreign ministry source said Lady was detained for 24 hours at the border with Costa Rica pending an extradition request from Italy.

    He was let go because Panama does not have an extradition treaty with Italy and because documentation sent by Italian officials was "insufficient," the source said. link

    Be interesting to see if this ends with his return to the U.S.

    Uh, that Muslim cleric (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 09:56:06 AM EST
    was a terrorist and Lady acted at the direction of the government.

    Kidnapping is illegal (none / 0) (#18)
    by MO Blue on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:08:55 AM EST
    If Lady acted at the direction of the government, the government ordered illegal acts.

    The government ordering illegal acts?? (none / 0) (#120)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 07:00:53 PM EST
    Do you think it would??



    Don't do the crime (none / 0) (#23)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:45:55 AM EST
    if you can't do the time.

    Kidnapping is a heinous crime.  Kidnapping a citizen of a foreign country for rendition to be tortured is even more heinous.

    Our extradition treaty with Italy requires him to be turned over, but somehow he and his 22 co-conspirators, including an ?Air Force colonel, have escaped justice.


    Kidnapping a non terrorist is a heinous (none / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 23, 2013 at 06:59:37 PM EST

    A terrorist?? No.


    Pretty much since (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:34:11 AM EST
    Bush was re-elected for his third term in 2008, I think...

    True (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by gaf on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:58:43 AM EST
    But it's increased much since the Zimmerman trial coverage. It's become such that people here refer to the Democratic Party as 'Democrat Party'. People say that Republic Party's 'Southern Stategy' is a myth. People start comments with 'Why do you liberals always ...."? People link to Real Clear Politics for the articles. The earlier denizens of Talk Left were liberals who didn't fawn over Obama because they thought he wasn't a liberal. The current lot dislike him because they think he is too liberal.

    you cannot generalize about (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:33:51 AM EST
    readers here. They are of all views, and remain predominately progressive. There was a mass exodus after the 2007 primaries, and they were replaced. The goal of this site is to promote the rights of the accused. Defense lawyers are not all one party. Many are Republicans and many are Libertarians. All are welcome if they support the rights of the accused (and not just in one instance.)

    TalkLeft will always support Democrats because Republicans are always worse on crime issues. As bad as the Dems may be, Republicans are worse.

    I also refuse to give an inch when it comes to any constitutional right and that includes the right to bear arms.

    There are many new readers right now because of the Zimmerman case who happen not to share my politics --just as so-called progressives do not share my view of gun rights or the Zimmerman case.

    You cannot generalize about who is reading here. Only 1 out of every few hundred or thousand readers comment at all.

    When Zimmerman has fully died down, the more conservative readers will leave. They will not tolerate my views on things like immigration or closing Guantanamo. (Although they may care about the warrantless surveillance issues.)

    The point being, all readers are welcome here and there's no reason the comments have to merely be an echo chamber for progressive views. We've always had conservatives and independents here.

    Comments from everyone are welcome, provided they comport with the comment rules and don't cause the discussion to sink to gutter levels with name-calling, personal attacks, drive-by snide one-line insults, profanity or chattering.

    The point of having a blog is to express my views and hopefully, over time, by pointing out individual cases of injustice and bad laws, convince some that reform is needed.

    Many readers over the years have commented they learned things from this site. That's the best compliment I can think of, and I really don't care what their politics are on other issues.

    All are welcome here, and you cannot generalize about the personal politics of readers as a whole when the vast majority do not comment at all, so there is no way to tell.


    I agree (none / 0) (#41)
    by gaf on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:45:17 PM EST
    I agree with most of the things you have said above. Actually this place is a refuge for a lot of us from the DKos echo chamber. But one reason it works as a refuge is because it still leans predominantly left - both the authors (you and BTD) and a good majority of the readers. My only worry is with the new right wingers being rather vocal, the left leaning readers will be driven away.

    Your coverage of the GZ case was outstanding and I agree with everything you have written about the case in the last year - I am only sad about the fact that it has attracted the far right also. TL always had a lot of moderates and independents - but this is the first time I am seeing so many right wingers. They are still a minority (though a vocal one), though.


    they won't stay (none / 0) (#78)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 07:44:07 PM EST
    They were here in great numbers during the Duke la crosse case because unlike most progressives, I supported the defense from the outset, and pointed out the likelihood it was all a lie. They were very pleasant while here, but of course didn't stay when the conversation changed to Gitmo, criticism of Republicans and warrantless wiretapping and the like.

    Readers come, readers go. That's the nature of blogging. And it's all good.


    gaf, I also meant to thank you (none / 0) (#88)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 10:30:41 PM EST
    for the compliment on the Zimmerman reporting.

    Don't forget that links to the source documents, trial videos, discovery and more are all on the forums where they will remain for posterity (as least as long as TL is around.) They are open for everyone to read without registration or ads.


    yep... (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:00:54 AM EST
    Get with it, Sem (none / 0) (#30)
    by NYShooter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:06:00 AM EST
    In 2005/2006 Congress used plain, white envelopes to divvy up the loot, er....pay. Today, after Obama saved us from the greatest depression since The Big Bang (no snickering, please) they require front end loaders.

    plain, white envelopes to divvy up the loot, (none / 0) (#31)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:15:52 AM EST
    While the front scoops the cash the backhoe fracks the gas and it's all good for  Craft/Halliburton.  I keep thinking I can't be surprised, but the doubling-down continues on the blackjack table while I play the penny slots.

    Judge Halts Detroit Bankruptcy (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:31:50 AM EST
    Lansing-- Ruling the governor and Detroit's emergency manager violated the state constitution, an Ingham County Circuit judge ordered Friday that Detroit's federal bankruptcy filing be withdrawn.

    "It's absolutely needed," said Judge Rosemary Aquilina, observing she hopes Gov. Rick Snyder "reads certain sections of the (Michigan) constitution and reconsiders his actions."

    The judge said state law guards against retirement benefits being "diminished," but there will be no such protection in federal bankruptcy court....

    ...While experts say federal proceedings take precedence, state-level legal maneuvering could delay the process. Pension board attorneys said their pleadings could wind up in federal court, too.

    The Detroit News

    State Court Interference With Bankruptcy? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Michael Masinter on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:36:06 PM EST
    Generally challenges to the propriety of a bankruptcy proceeding must be brought in the bankruptcy court or its superior federal court, not in separate state court litigation.  The automatic stay provisions of federal bankruptcy law also would seem to divest the state court of any jurisdiction to interfere.  I'd expect the federal court to enjoin the prosecution of the state court proceedings, or the state court order quickly overturned on appeal.  And it's axiomatic that state law can't restrict the power of a bankruptcy court.

    Yes (none / 0) (#40)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:39:08 PM EST
    Looks like a delaying tactic..

    The bankruptcy court (none / 0) (#45)
    by jbindc on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 12:53:23 PM EST
    can rule on matters of the Michigan constitution, which was the basis for this stay. (The judge said the filing violated the Michigan constitution).

    Seems the city didn't dot all their "i's" and cross all their "t's":

    In a spate of orders out of Ingham County Circuit Court arising from three separate lawsuits, Aquilina said Snyder and Orr must take no further actions that threaten to diminish the pension benefits of city of Detroit retirees.

    "I have some very serious concerns because there was this rush to bankruptcy court that didn't have to occur and shouldn't have occurred," Aquilina said.

    Lawyers representing pensioners and two city pension funds got an emergency hearing with Aquilina on Thursday at which she said she planned to issue an order to block the bankruptcy filing. But lawyers and the judge learned Orr filed the bankruptcy petition in Detroit five minutes before the hearing began.

    Aquilina said the Michigan Constitution prohibits actions that will lessen the pension benefits of public employees, including those in the city of Detroit. Snyder and Orr violated the constitution by going ahead with the bankruptcy filing, because they know reductions in those benefits will result, Aquilina said.

    "We can't speculate what the bankruptcy court might order," said Assistant Attorney General Brian Devlin, representing the governor and other state defendants.

    "It's a certainty, sir," Aquilina replied. "That's why you filed for bankruptcy."

    "Transparency Fail" (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 04:54:30 PM EST

    "Most transparent administration in history" releases most redacted document in history.

    After the courts laid out the conditions in which the government can compel email providers to turn over users' private messages, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) wondered if the FBI was applying similar guidelines to text messages. So the group filed a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Justice Department.

    "The document "does not even show the date, let alone what the policy is," ACLU spokesperson Josh Bell told ABC News.

    "This is the most transparent administration in history." - B. Obama

    Right back atcha' (none / 0) (#71)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:20:06 PM EST
    Have you seen the Micael Hastings Barrett Brown connection?


    Barrett, at the time he was arrested,was studying Endgame. The Nation reports:

      Brown began looking into Endgame Systems, an information security firm that seemed particularly concerned about staying in the shadows.

     "Please let HBGary know we don't ever want to see our name in a press release," one leaked e-mail read. One of its products, available for a $2.5 million annual subscription, gave customers access to "zero-day exploits"--security vulnerabilities unknown to software companies--for computer systems all over the world. Business Week published a story on Endgame in 2011, reporting that "Endgame executives will bring up maps of airports, parliament buildings, and corporate offices. The executives then create a list of the computers running inside the facilities, including what software the computers run, and a menu of attacks that could work against those particular systems." For Brown, this raised the question of whether Endgame was selling these exploits to foreign actors and whether they would be used against computer systems in the United States. Shortly thereafter, the hammer came down.

    The FBI acquired a warrant for Brown's laptop, gaining the authority to seize any information related to HBGary, Endgame Systems, Anonymous and, most ominously, "email, email contacts, `chat', instant messaging logs, photographs, and correspondence." In other words, the FBI wanted his sources.
    So what is Endgame? According to Darker Net:

    Endgame [is] a company that specialises in hacking on behalf of NSA. Endgame also offers its intelligence clients -- e.g. Cyber Command, NSA, CIA and MI6, etc -- a unique map, called Bonesaw, showing exactly where targets are located. Both Bonesaw and Endgame were exposed in a recent article as part of the fallout from the Snowden revelations[...]"White hat" in this context means defensive Internet security - fighting the "black hat" attackers. We write this in part to show that Rouland and his company Endgame have in fact gone back to "black hat" with the approval of the Federal government, doing (and facilitating for others) the sorts of attacks that the Pentagon, the NSA and the like don't want their fingers found in.[...]One key member of the board of directors at Endgame is retired Lt. General Kenneth A. Minihan (8) whose claim to fame is that he was the 14th director of the National Security Agency/Central Security Service. He is a former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency and a founder of the National Information Assurance Program which is a United States government initiative to meet the security testing needs for information technology for both consumers and producers that is operated by the NSA and was originally a joint effort between the NSA and NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology). [...]


    sorry (none / 0) (#72)
    by Semanticleo on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 05:25:54 PM EST
    Wayyyyyyy too much bandwidth

    Farmers Markets: Organic green onions, lettuces, (none / 0) (#89)
    by melamineinNY on Sat Jul 20, 2013 at 11:32:11 PM EST
    blueberries!, potatoes, asparagus, collard greens, mustard greens, beets, beef, chicken, goat, pork, grass-fed butter and cheese, cucumbers, zucchini, sourdough bread made from locally grown flour...however I'm not the only one here who's a little confused by the nectarines and things we know are not from around here and might just as well be bought at the grocery store.  

    Democrats as bad as Republicans (none / 0) (#95)
    by shoephone on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 11:38:12 AM EST
    When so called Dems choose to (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 11:47:51 AM EST
    adopt Republican agendas.

    In a bipartisan move, the "New Democrat Coalition" has dropped the "ic" at the end of "Democratic" per Karl Rove's decree. link

    And I wonder what Donald thinks of Hanabusa (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by shoephone on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 11:51:58 AM EST
    and the New New Dems.

    Waiter: What can get for you?
    Diner: I'd like a third party please.


    We have a strict policy (none / 0) (#98)
    by Semanticleo on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 12:00:33 PM EST
    No substitutions

    The 'paper or plastic' choice seems like the tyranny of the majority, doesn't it?  

    I thought the founders made the choice for Constitutional Republic to avoid that very result.


    The irony is (none / 0) (#117)
    by sj on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 06:52:23 PM EST
    Hanabusa is doing just what Donald recommends if one wants to effect a change in the Democratic party.

    Oops. I guess I mean the Democrat party.  


    Maybe so. (none / 0) (#118)
    by shoephone on Mon Jul 22, 2013 at 10:30:40 PM EST
    That's why I'm interested in having him weigh in on it. She seems to have a nasty habit of voting with Republicans a lot. It looks to me as though she is an example of naked ambition.

    We already had terms for Landrieu (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by ruffian on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 12:20:47 PM EST
    and the 5 or 6 others that make the so-called Democratic Senate majority not a majority at all. Some were even fit to print...Blue Dogs, Republicrats,  etc...

    Glad to see they are making it clear they dance to the Rove tunes.


    In places like Louisiana (none / 0) (#100)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 12:40:11 PM EST
    if you don't support a Dem like Landrieu you'll have a David Vitter look-alike as your second Senator.

    Yes, we should keep supporting these people (5.00 / 2) (#101)
    by shoephone on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 12:52:44 PM EST
    who vote for legislation that subverts the constitution. Otherwise, we might end up with representatives who vote for legislation that subverts the...oh, wait.

    If you don't see (2.67 / 3) (#104)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 01:27:13 PM EST
    a difference between Mary Landrieu and David Vitter you really shouldn't discuss politics.

    Don't be a sanctimonious pr*ck (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by shoephone on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 01:40:27 PM EST
    I understand there's a difference. Unfortunately, there's a much bigger difference between the Landrieu Vichy Dems of this nation and Dems that actually stand for something representing liberal values -- Dems like Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, Sheldon Whitehouse, Sherrod Brown, Patty Murray, Tom Harkin, Jeff Merkley and Ron Wyden.

    But at least you've acknowledged that the south is well phucked when it comes to political representation. After all, it's either Mary Landrieu (crappy) or David Vitter (extremely crappy).


    I agree with your excellent choices of Senators (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by CoralGables on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 02:15:58 PM EST
    but all of them come from states that voted for Obama and none from the south.

    For example, there are 5 Gulf States. Of the ten Senators from those 5 states, 9 are male and 8 are republican. Landrieu is the only female and the 2nd most liberal of the ten. Sometimes you take what you can get.

    Our time is much better spent not fighting against a southern female Dem Senator. If you want to challenge Gulf State senators, take on Cruz, Cornyn, Vitter, Sessions, Shelby, Cochran, Wicker, and Rubio.

    For the record, I think she's putting forward a stupid bill, but also recognize it's to benefit a home state project and she's up for re-election. I'll hope the bill dies and her efforts help win her re-election.


    But CG, what if her bill passes? (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by shoephone on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 05:28:10 PM EST
    That's the chance we take in electing the lesser of two evils, or, in this case, the lesser of two conservatives. That bill is a direct hit on the separation of church and state. Maybe some folks think it can't pass the slight majority Dem Senate. But there are just enough conservative Dems -- people like Pryor -- who may very well vote to support it. I don't think that's a chance we can take. So, great, let's go after Vitter (who, if GOPers had any integrity after their salivating over Weiner, should have been thrown out for his prostitution escapades) but then don't we end up with two Landrieus, still placating the right wing of Louisiana, still sponsoring wrong-headed legislation?

    Incumbency makes both parties weak-kneed. We shouldn't have to keep taking these kinds of chances on known quantities who don't serve us.

    And I apologize for the name-calling. The last few weeks on this site have really put me in a bad mood.  


    I know what (none / 0) (#108)
    by Ga6thDem on Sun Jul 21, 2013 at 05:09:48 PM EST
    you are saying and I wish we could elect better representation in the south but it just seems like we move from so-so Johnny Isakson to horrible Saxby Chambliss. We even have Paul Broun running for senate here in GA. I would not be surprised to see him win the GOP primary. Look at the bright side though: people like Broun, Todd Akin etc help Dems win the presidency.