Wednesday Night Open Thread

To gradually wean myself away from the Zimmerman case, I have moved my laptop from the room I blog in during the evenings, and am switching to the iMac desktop I got several months ago but still haven't learned how to use. The keyboard is very small and the mouse quite different, so you may see more typos until I get accustomed to it. My laptop has all the GZ case documents and research and I'm not transferring it to the Mac. If this experiment lasts more than a few hours, I'll be surprised, but I thought I'd try it.

Here is an open thread for all topics except the George Zimmerman case.

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    Pussy Riot New Song (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:29:43 PM EST
    Like a Red Prison, protesting Putin's oil connection and other things..  Russian seems a perfect language for protest songs, IMO. Lyric translation and commentary here. And, Rolling Stone chimes in here.

    I am still... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by DebFrmHell on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:39:20 PM EST
    trying to figure out how you keep your house clean between work and this blog.  



    Housework? (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 06:39:58 AM EST
    What is this foreign thing you speak of?  :)

    Oh man... (5.00 / 5) (#27)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:11:46 AM EST
    Speak of the devil, I was up till 3 am last night house cleaning...I'm f*ckin' shot!

    You don't realize how grimey the crib is until you start the major league cleaning, instead of the usual quick once over of high traffic areas.  I figured the kitchen would take me an hour, it took 5.  Makes the 2 hours I spent in the bathroom seem reasonable! The more I dusted and scrubbed and mopped and wiped the more grime I found.

    Ypu could eat off any nook or cranny now though...b*tch is sparkling!  I can host la mujer especial now without being embarassed...that is if my roomies don't dog it all today...if I see a skid-mark when I get home tonight I'm going SYG on a fool!


    You Know How You Paid.... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:49:39 AM EST
    ...someone to mow the lawn, hold on to your shorts, but you can pay people to work on the inside of your place as well.

    Just kidding, but I have a lady come in every other week to do the deep cleaning and I don't mind the daily stuff.

    You're gonna go all George Zimmerman on a fool, that is funny.


    If I had a maid (none / 0) (#33)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:52:36 AM EST
    1. I'd have to afford it
    2. I'd feel silly paying someone to clean a 700 sq foot apartment where there are two full grown adults who are capable of such things, and
    3. I'd feel I'd have to do some cleaning before they came! (Not that we're filthy, but I'd feel like was being judged!)

    BUT - I would like someone to do the bathroom and floors.

    It's Not About Beng Capable... (none / 0) (#50)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:15:17 AM EST
    ...it's about not wanting to do it.  I can wash my car, but hot damn, for $10 I let someone else do it.

    I hear ya, I had someone at my old place, 700 sq ft, come in weekly, but when I moved in with the gf, she fought it tooth and nail.  Same as you, "I need to clean before they come in, blah, blah, blah".  I won out, because I ain't doing it and after she cleaned my bathroom, she reversed her position.

    Bathrooms, baseboards, floors, and dusting the corners every other week for $50 and it's considerably larger than your place.

    I try and try to jockey for the coveted Friday position, because then it's sparkling for company, but I am still on Wednesdays.  All my friends use the same person.


    It can be a matter of deciding that (none / 0) (#52)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:17:49 AM EST
    your time is more valuable than what it will cost for someone else to do it.

    I know (none / 0) (#53)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:24:29 AM EST
    But there are many times where I am just sitting in front of the television, so it's not like I couldn't both watch TV AND dust or run the vacuum.  :)

    Consider It... (none / 0) (#55)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:28:49 AM EST
    ...you own economic stimulus.

    LOL I probably should have... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:02:23 AM EST
    I much prefer mowing the lawn than that indoor sh*t, but the landscapers was more of a thing of the lawnmower giving me fits and the guy catching me at the perfect time.  I'd rather do the work and allocate disposable dollars to other things.  Plus, I'm just not that comfortable having other people clean up my mess.  

    Now that you mention it though, I should give my roomates a bill! I'm far from a neat-freak but compared to those slobs I look like one;)


    I will look for my invitation in the mail (none / 0) (#28)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:25:30 AM EST
    Open Invitiation...;) (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:36:39 AM EST
    but I don't think you'd want to be my houseguest...not only is smoking permitted in the pad, smoking is encouraged.  Took two wash cycles and heavy bleaching to turn the tan curtains back to white.

    I could stand by the windows. :) (none / 0) (#34)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:53:25 AM EST
    Been There (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:48:47 AM EST
    love has its downsides...

    Nasser al-Awlaki wants to know (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:51:53 AM EST
    A good question (5.00 / 3) (#17)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 05:57:00 AM EST
    One that I would like to have answered myself.

    ... the Italian Ministry of Justice has just announced that per the ministry's request, Panama has arrested and detained former Milan CIA station chief Robert Seldon Lady, possibly as he attempted to cross the border into Costa Rica.

    In 2009, Mr. Lady and 21 CIA operatives were tried and convicted in absentia by an Italian court for the February 2003 abduction of Egyptian cleric Osama Moustafa Hassan Nasr in broad daylight on a Milan street, as he was walking to a nearby mosque for prayers.

    An appeals court upheld those convictions in September 2012, and then sentenced Lady earlier this year to nine years imprisonment for his part in the extraordinary rendition of Nasr out of Italy, first to Germany and then to Egypt, where the cleric alleged he was tortured before eventually being released.

    Lady was first indicted by Italy in 2007. While he had initially claimed diplomatic immunity at the time of the 2003 abduction of Mr. Nasr, which initially prevented his arrest, Italian prosecutors have steadfastly maintained that he forfeited his immunity upon his 2005 retirement from the CIA.

    Stay tuned, because this should prove most interesting. Aloha.


    Surely the U.S. will intervene with (none / 0) (#103)
    by caseyOR on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 03:48:59 PM EST
    Panama to get Lady released. Unless we have so alienated Latin America that not even our subsidiary nations there will obey our orders, I do not see Italy getting custody of this guy.

    Winner... Winner... (5.00 / 1) (#109)
    by ScottW714 on Fri Jul 19, 2013 at 02:55:21 PM EST
    ...here is you chicken diner.

    Panama frees ex-CIA official detained in Italy 'rendition' case

    Trying to equate panamas actions to Russia, one has been found guilty of a crime, the other just wanted for one.  I guess the us doesn't like the whole goose and gander thing.


    When is the last time (none / 0) (#104)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 04:32:31 PM EST
    he even lived here? More than ten years? If he thought he'd have protection in the US I'd think he would have been living here.

    Wow (none / 0) (#105)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 05:04:03 PM EST
    Pitiful... (none / 0) (#36)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:55:55 AM EST
    What a legacy, killing innocent Americans.

    Degrees of separation (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 07:29:49 AM EST
    The National Security Agency revealed to an angry congressional panel on Wednesday that its analysis of phone records and online behavior goes exponentially beyond what it had previously disclosed.

    John C Inglis, the deputy director of the surveillance agency, told a member of the House judiciary committee that NSA analysts can perform "a second or third hop query" through its collections of telephone data and internet records in order to find connections to terrorist organizations.

    "Hops" refers to a technical term indicating connections between people. A three-hop query means that the NSA can look at data not only from a suspected terrorist, but from everyone that suspect communicated with, and then from everyone those people communicated with, and then from everyone all of those people communicated with. link

    I know we told you one thing but now this really, really is as far as it goes. Everyone knows that no one at NSA would ever lie to Congress. :(

    Honestly (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Edger on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:50:31 AM EST
    "We're telling you the truth when we tell you we lied to you before, and we're telling you the truth now when we tell you we won't lie to you. You must believe us."

    I sense a "sternly worded letter" in the (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:16:10 AM EST
    works...isn't that what usually follows "angry congressional panels?"

    Apparently, if you are a baseball player, Congress' outrage at possibly being lied to (how dare the American Pastime be sullied!) is enough to charge you with a federal crime , and unleash the dogs of hell on you, but if your name is "Clapper," or "Alexander," (to name only the most recent examples), you have nothing to fear.


    Such a great picture (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:24:52 AM EST
    Awesome picture... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:40:40 AM EST
    Today, I fear someone would call the cops to report a stolen shopping cart.

    Love it! : ) (none / 0) (#106)
    by melamineinNY on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 07:58:35 PM EST
    Hope and tragedy: (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by lentinel on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:42:53 AM EST
    Hope springs from news that Mr. Mandela is recovering.
    If anyone deserves to live forever, it is he.

    Tragedy springs from a heartbreaking and sobering Op-Ed in the NYTimes by Nasser al-Awlaki - whose son and grandson were killed by drones.

    He details the circumstances of both killings, how his 16 year old grandson, an American citizen, was killed while he was eating dinner at an open-air restaurant. He speaks of the deliberate targeting and killing by the Obama administration of his son, Anwar, also and American citizen, who was placed on the Obama "kill list" but never charged with a crime."No court ever reviewed the government's claims nor was any evidence of criminal wrongdoing ever presented to a court. He did not deserve to be deprived of his constitutional rights as an American citizen and killed."

    Mr. al-Awlaki says that he will petition a federal court in Washington to force the Obama administration to answer for its actions and to be held accountable. I will be most interested to see what happens with respect to his petition. I too, would like answers.

    He states,

    A country that believes it does not even need to answer for killing its own is not the America I once knew.

    It's not the America I once thought I knew either.

    The whole Op-Ed is here.

    Speaking as someone whose own father ... (3.50 / 2) (#100)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:50:07 PM EST
    lentinel: "It's not the America I once thought I knew either."

    ... was a counterinsurgency specialist directly involved first in the September 1961 overthrow of Prime minister Patrice Lumumba in the former Belgian Congo, and later in the November 1963 overthrow of South Vietnamese president Ngo Dinh Diem -- both of whom were subsequently and conveniently killed, by the way -- I'd offer that you know damned well that the America you claim you once thought you knew never really existed in the first place.

    So, given your history of never wasting an opportunity to bash this country, please make your otherwise perfectly valid point without leaving us awash in your disingenuous sentiment for the place, because it rings both cheesy and false -- not unlike smothering a good steak with melted Velveeta.



    It is (5.00 / 2) (#107)
    by lentinel on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:21:38 PM EST
    so tiresome.

    A criticism of government policy is redefined as bashing this country.

    It is a threadbare right-wing ploy.

    And, as usual, you go for a personal attack rather than confront the issues to which you are allegedly responding.

    Just to get you up to date: Neither Patrice Lumumba nor Ngo Dinh Diem were American citizens.


    Your "own father"... (3.00 / 2) (#102)
    by sj on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:59:50 PM EST
    ... is likely not known to lentinel so your father's activities could not in any way inform his (lentinel's) [mis]understanding of what America was or was not.

    And given your history of never wasting an opportunity to  bash your fellow commenters* you should consider making your otherwise valid point in some other way.  Talk about being disingenuous.

    * This statement is as true and correct as the one you made. FTR.


    I think (5.00 / 1) (#108)
    by lentinel on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:14:35 PM EST
    that even setting Don's habitual insult aside, he was not making a valid point. The best I could say is that whatever point he was making has nothing to do with the subject of my comment.

    He mentioned two political assassinations of foreign leaders that were engineered by American counter-insurgency specialists.
    I am fully aware that the US government has been involved in this sort of activity for generations.

    But this has nothing to do with what I was talking about in the comment to which he was responding.

    I was not talking about the US's history of political assassinations of foreign leaders.
    That is an America with which I have been thoroughly familiar for some time.

    I was reacting to a heart-wrenching Op-Ed by a man whose grandchild and son, both American citizens, were the subjects of targeted killings, approved by the President of the United States, His grandson was 16 years old and never accused of anything. His son was accused but never charged with any crime. Both individuals were denied their constitutional rights as American citizens and killed.
    That is an America that is quite new to me.


    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 71 (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 11:14:41 AM EST
    Paul Krugman today (none / 0) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:17:12 PM EST
    He may want to talk to (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 06:35:11 AM EST
    James P. Hoffa and other union leaders, who wrote a letter to Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi recently:

    When you and the President sought our support for the Affordable Care Act (ACA), you pledged that if we liked the health plans we have now, we could keep them. Sadly, that promise is under threat. Right now, unless you and the Obama Administration enact an equitable fix, the ACA will shatter not only our hard-earned health benefits, but destroy the foundation of the 40 hour work week that is the backbone of the American middle class.

    Like millions of other Americans, our members are front-line workers in the American economy. We have been strong supporters of the notion that all Americans should have access to quality, affordable health care. We have also been strong supporters of you. In campaign after campaign we have put boots on the ground, gone door-to-door to get out the vote, run phone banks and raised money to secure this vision.

    Now this vision has come back to haunt us.



    Even the Krugman in the article (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:09:12 AM EST
    acknowledges that some people will be hurt by this legislation. I personally think that he has not looked at all the various parts to identify the broader number of people who will be effected negatively.

    Employer health insurance is one of the areas where many people may be adversely effected. Talk about going to "junk" insurance.

    Starving employees with 'skinny' plans

    Large Employers Considering Idea of 'Skinny' Health Plans

    These new plans will cover only preventive services, limited doctor visits and no hospital stays, no surgery, X-rays or prenatal care.


    And of course (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:28:53 AM EST
    As the unions' letter reminds us - not only will working people not necessarily be able to keep their insurance - that which was negotiated, and in some cases, taken along with pay freezes or cuts - now many employees are having their hours cut so the employer doesn't have to provide insurance.

    So, no employer-provided insurance AND smaller paychecks (of which said money will be needed to buy insurance).


    This is of particular interest to me (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:55:43 AM EST
    since it does not look like MO will expand Medicaid.

    No one knows quite what to do in states that aren't expanding Medicaid. In those states, the poorest residents will get no help but slightly less-poor residents will get lots of help. That's confusing for everyone involved -- and a real challenge to the people trying to sign folks up for the law. How do you tell someone they're too poor to be eligible for subsidies?

    Nor is anyone really certain what will happen to the hospital systems in those states, as they're losing out on a lot of money they were counting on. The administration's theory is that if the law is seen as relatively successful, the economics of participating in the Medicaid expansion are so overwhelmingly favorable to the states that they'll fall in line. But no one really knows what'll happen in that first year or two, nor who will be blamed for the resulting mess. link

    More on ways the poor will be hurt in MO (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:25:05 AM EST
    Services for homeless people (vets and non vets alike) and the very poor are already being discontinued due to the deep cuts in state and federal budgets. Educational and employment programs, mental health, substance abuse programs, subsidized housing for the homeless and the very poor are drastically being cut back or eliminated.

    Many of these cuts especially in the area of mental health, substance abuse programs and housing will result in a substantial increase in hospital emergency room usage at a time when hospital funds to treat the uninsured will be cut. Not a good thing.



    And the single greatest line (none / 0) (#2)
    by CoralGables on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:18:36 PM EST
    By the time Liz Cheney challenges Hillary Clinton's reelection campaign, there will be signs at the rallies declaring "Don't let the government get its hands on Obamacare!

    Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:32:05 PM EST
    When actual CARE is provided, and after the dust settles and everyone has to live with their "choices," we'll see where we are at. But count me as dubious that the same government that is just so powerless against financial criminals will go like gangbusters after violations in the system by providers, or genuinely assure that quality and adequate cares is provided. To actually guarantee that the government would need an army of public employees just to oversee customer service on an effective level. I am glad some people are seeing a benefit, like MilitaryTracy and her family, but I cannot bring myself to be optimistic about a system that, again, relies so heavily on the industry doing the right thing, and that skin in the game bullsh*t.  Patients have REAL skin in the game, and huge companies profit from it, that's the real dermatology of insurance. But, hey, may it work better than anyone imagined. I'm not Grinch when it comes to the issue, just skeptical.

    You don't need to wait (none / 0) (#8)
    by txantimedia on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:51:15 PM EST
    to see how the system will work.  Check out healthcare for American Indians, or American veterans or anyone using Medicare.  Those failures should be quite instructive of what the future holds.

    Let me put it like this.  I'm a vet.  I'd die on the street before I'd let anyone take me to a VA hospital.  It would be less frustrating, less painful and less expensive.


    I have Medicare (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by MO Blue on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 09:05:08 PM EST
    and I am much happier with it than I was with my private insurance plan.

    My stepdad is a WWII vet (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by shoephone on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 09:08:16 PM EST
    and he wouldn't go anywhere but the VA for his care.

    Completely disagree (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by D Jessup on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 09:29:09 PM EST
    I have checked out the VA in 3 cities in Texas. My father who is 92 and was POW, captured at the Battle of the Bulge, has been going to the VA Hospital in Amarillo for over 30 years, the care has always been fantastic.  I am a Vet and use the new VA Clinic in Austin and the Hospital in Temple. The care in my opinion is on par with the care I got through the HMOs and Hospitals in Austin.  

    My husband goes to the VA in (none / 0) (#12)
    by Anne on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 09:32:36 PM EST
    Baltimore and gets great care, but I understand it isn't so great in other places.

    That is very possible (none / 0) (#13)
    by D Jessup on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 09:48:14 PM EST
    But ragging on all VA Hospitals, seems to me to be just flat out wrong. I think people who don't have health care would love to be able to get into the quality of care I and my father get.

    txantimedia seems to just be spreading a little right wing BS.


    My suspicion is... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:28:44 AM EST
    WWII vets get treated better than other vets.  My great uncle gets awesome care at the Northport VA, they even clip his toenails.  Then you hear horror stories from Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan vets about the VA.



    The care does depend on where you go (none / 0) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 07:38:55 AM EST
    VA not always so great here in MO. Then again VA care is definitely better than no affordable health care at all.

    OTOH we don't seem to experience any problems finding really good doctors, health centers etc. that will accept Medicare or Medicaid here.


    Failures? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Yman on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 06:59:38 AM EST
    Check out healthcare for American Indians, or American veterans or anyone using Medicare.  Those failures should be quite instructive of what the future holds.

    My parents have been on Medicare for 15+ years.  They have nothing but positive things to say about it, particularly compared to the high-premium, high-deductible private plan they were on 20 years ago.


    AN AXE LENGTH AWAY, vol. 70 (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:21:10 PM EST
    Our illustrious (none / 0) (#5)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jul 17, 2013 at 08:30:39 PM EST
    Governor Nathan Deal is only polling at 50% in the GOP primary. I guess it's going to be another war of a primary for that. We already have another holy war going on for Saxby's senate seat. Interesting days here in GA.

    Liz Cheney is running for the Senate in WY. I though she lived in VA. Yes, the horror never ends--we have a Bush and a Cheney running for office right now. Hopefully Jeb Bush won't last too long in the GOP primary.

    She DID live in VA (none / 0) (#19)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 06:39:22 AM EST
    She moved to Jackson Hole last year sometime.

    Yes, the "carpetbagger" cries have started.

    The funny thing is, living in Jackson Hole, she is in the most Democratic part of the state, and she really has no contacts or base there.

    I don't see how she can win, and all she can do is upset the very people she needs for any future run - the state Republican establishment.


    Well (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 07:22:06 AM EST
    no one ever accused the Cheney family of having too many brains. She seems to have the same over-inflated sense of self importance that her father does. The tea party crazies are all about getting "long time" politicians out of office even if they are going to have to nominate general election losers. I guess whether she wins or loses depends on how many tea party types show up to vote I would imagine.

    Enzi is too popular (none / 0) (#25)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 07:41:39 AM EST
    Saw Enzi on the TV... (5.00 / 4) (#38)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:11:19 AM EST
    ...he slammed Cheney by stating something like "The people of Wyoming don't like outside money, long primaries, or negative ads.  If Liz Cheney lived here, she would know that."



    I grew up very close to Cheney's ranch (5.00 / 5) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 11:58:57 AM EST
    When he had the Polo Ranch.  Wyoming is strange, it loves its legends.  The Cheney's have treated the people of Wyoming like $hit for years.  Wyoming always elects a Democrat for governor too.  After one election where we were changing out our Democrat and Democrats were nervous, and Dick Cheney was also up for re-election, we (young Democrats) went to the Holiday Inn bar in Sheridan to celebrate our New Democrat governor.....all three of us.  We get there and the place is of course full of Cheney's volunteers.  Two drinks in and Cheney shows up with like 5 flunkies in tow.  He technically owns this room.  With his beady little eyes he surveys everyone and then the small group ducks into a small attached meeting room and slams the door in everyone's face.  He had won, and he didn't buy his volunteers a drink, didn't say thanks, didn't say KMA. The three of us cracked up and really cracked on his volunteers who had moments before been giving us such $hit about our token Democrat.  Who volunteers for and works for such an arrogant phucker?  Wyoming.  Cheneys are Wyoming oil/gas/coal royalty though.

    Enzi got his start in shoes :). My step-mother worked briefly for him after being divorced with three kids to feed.  NZ shoes paid slave wages, no insurance, no extra breaks.  He was abusive as hell, and it was a status symbol to buy your shoes there :). That's pretty sad.  I took a leadership course with his daughter, and she was great, a therapist for special needs children.  After the course she said that she wanted her dad to take it, I thought silently to myself that it might make him a better person but the only benefit I see was that then he decided to run for Senate and abuse the whole country :)

    He's feisty, he might fight, but know that the oil and gas industry owns Wyoming and if a Cheney wants Enzi's seat he is going to have the tar sands pounded out of him both physically and financially.  Let's see how much feist that leadership course gave him :)


    That makes (none / 0) (#68)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:32:54 PM EST
    me understand A LOT more why she is running. Of course, she's another Todd Akin that the Dems can use in national elections.

    She will have her uses (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:37:53 PM EST
    She is so extreme though, she WILL violate that filibuster "agreement" immediately.

    Oh boy (none / 0) (#62)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 11:02:23 AM EST
    another GOP holy war coming down the pike! All politicians say their state doesn't like "outside money etc" but yet they certainly vote for people that take "outside money".

    Totally Agree... (none / 0) (#64)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 11:25:54 AM EST
    ...but the burn was abut her not knowing because she's an outsider.

    We all know the score, people hate the money, no matter where it comes from, yet money is what wins elections.  They hate it, yet they are persuaded by it...


    Lugar (none / 0) (#30)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:44:32 AM EST
    was popular too. It does not seem to matter anymore when it comes to GOP primaries.

    Even the Wyoming Tea Party (none / 0) (#44)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:32:15 AM EST
    Is not sure about her.

    Robert DiLorenzo's e-mail account has been filling up with questions from friends about Liz Cheney ever since she formally declared her intention to challenge a fellow Republican, U.S. Senator Michael Enzi of Wyoming.

    "It's being greeted with confusion and mystery," said DiLorenzo, a Wyoming attorney who co-founded the Big Horn Basin Tea Party. "I have seen her on Fox News, but we don't really know enough about her and what she wants to do."


    "The Tea Party is not as out of the mainstream as it would be in some other places," he said. "It's not like you have a centrist, moderate Republican getting hit from the right. He has a solidly conservative voting record, so there isn't as much room to attack from the right."

    The Tea Party really doesn't have a quarrel with Enzi:

    DiLorenzo said the incumbent's only real weakness is a lack of boldness. In his last election in 2008, Enzi didn't face a primary challenger. He won the general election with 76 percent of the vote.

    "Mike Enzi has always been good to us and has always treated us well," he said. "Our only thing with Mike is that we wish he would be more vocal."

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 11:00:17 AM EST
    that's one person's opinion. We shall see what happens. Tea partiers love Bush/Cheney.

    I'm placing my bet on Senator Liz Cheney (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:13:50 PM EST
    She has formally announced, and I'm placing a side bet on Enzi deciding to drop out.

    I believe you (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:42:42 PM EST
    We already know that the Cheney's always get what they want, no matter how much the constitution gets trampled, no matter who gets caught in the crossfire. But maybe Liz will refrain from shooting anyone in the face on her way up the totem pole.

    Unless you consider it a backstab (none / 0) (#77)
    by CoralGables on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:08:08 PM EST
    Liz has already shot Enzi in the face. He is (was?) a family friend.

    I don't see it (none / 0) (#73)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:51:14 PM EST
    They have a Senator that they are happy with, who has seniority, and I think this is a toe-dip in the water, and she won't even make it to the primary.  I bet she drops out before the end of the year, and then becomes the pre-emptive heir for the next Senate election - say, when Tester's term is up.

    Wait a minute (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:00:12 PM EST
    Did you just get Wyoming mixed up with Montana in the last half of that comment?  I think you did :)

    I did (none / 0) (#78)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:11:16 PM EST
    Realized it after I hit "post".

    My bad.

    But even so - if Cheney dips her toe in the water, she stands a good chance in 7 years (if she remains in the state) of being the frontrunner, should Enzi decide to retire at that point (he will be 76 then)


    Cheney's dipping toes cracks me up (none / 0) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:16:51 PM EST
    The toe thing happened months ago while we slept.  She has the finances locked up, and with Citizens United....Enzi is toast.  Due to Citizens United, I think it is a fair assumption too at this time that oil/gas/coal companies will own all four Senators coming out of Montana and Wyoming.

    But if Mike Enzi's like our own ... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:22:06 PM EST
    ... late Sen. Daniel Inouye and decides to be carried out of office boots first, La Liz will be pushing 70 herself when Enzi's finally pushing up daisies.

    Well, they are right next to one another. (none / 0) (#94)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:19:45 PM EST
    Ms. Cheney's already making the move from the east coast to Wyoming. Really, how hard would it be for her to drive her pickup truck across the state line, and plant her flag next to some crackpot's secret munitions shed in the prairie outside Billings?

    Cheneys are royalty in Wyoming (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:58:25 PM EST
    Wyoming's one political claim to fame or infamy, but at least you noticed.  Dick Cheney's reputation in Wyoming is radiant.  They love that the rest of country thinks he is Darth Vader.  They really do.  And the pull that Halliburton has in the state, Enzi can't beat her.  The state's voting majority isn't rational :). He'll bow out gracefully or take a beating, but I see him eventually pressured to bow out.

    Okay :) (none / 0) (#74)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:58:24 PM EST
    Naaa...the GOP Senate re-election (none / 0) (#87)
    by ruffian on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:56:34 PM EST
    folks have already come out and said they are backing Enzi. He's not dropping out. She will have to beat him fair and square. Well square anyway - she is a Cheney after all.

    I say the Halliburton and friends phone calls (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:35:35 PM EST
    Haven't gotten out yet.  I look for Enzi's tepid support among his peers to begin to dry up.  

    I read (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 08:46:23 AM EST
    last night where the guy that shot the teenagers for playing their music too loud has been charged with first degree murder. I wonder if he's going to use the Stand your ground defense.

    Seems Like... (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:20:49 AM EST
    ...he already said he felt his life was in danger, so self derfense seems to be the way he's leaning.


    Unrelated. Rolling Stone:

    In the eight years since the passage of Stand Your Ground, self-defense killings have more than tripled in Florida, and prosecutors sometimes have little choice but to accept the shooter's story: The only other witness is in the morgue. And like most of the gun amendments incubated in Florida, this one quickly went viral. It's now the law of the land in more than 20 states. Has it reduced violent crime, the stated goal of the law? Certainly not, according to study after study; homicides are up in SYG states, though they're down almost everywhere else. More than 500 people are dead from such shootings. And the prime victims of these crimes, according to one 2012 Georgia State University study? White males, or precisely the sort of men whom SYG was built to protect. But that's what guns do: They backfire and kill.

    Stand your Ground doesn't (none / 0) (#48)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:51:56 AM EST
    seem to work for everyone in Florida.

    Fla. mom gets 20 years for firing warning shots - CBS News

    (CBS News) JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - A Florida woman who fired warning shots against her allegedly abusive husband has been sentenced to 20 years in prison.

    Marissa Alexander of Jacksonville had said the state's "Stand Your Ground" law should apply to her because she was defending herself against her allegedly abusive husband when she fired warning shots inside her home in August 2010. She told police it was to escape a brutal beating by her husband, against whom she had already taken out a protective order.

    Except (none / 0) (#49)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 09:56:48 AM EST
    the facts are so completely different than the Zimmerman case

    According to a sworn deposition taken in November 2010, Gray, 36, said that on August 1, 2010, he and Alexander began fighting after he found text messages to Alexander's first husband on her phone. The two were already estranged - according to her father, Alexander had been living at her mother's since the birth of the couple's daughter nine days earlier, and Gray, a long-haul trucker, said he spent the night before in his tractor-trailer. Gray began calling her names, saying "If I can't have you, nobody going to have you," and blocking her from exiting the bathroom.

    Alexander pushed past Gray and went into the garage where she got her gun from her car's glove compartment.

    Gray told prosecutors in the deposition that Alexander came back into the house holding the weapon and told him to leave. He refused, and what happened next is somewhat unclear. In his deposition, Gray said "she shot in the air one time," prompting him and the children to run out the front door. But when Gray called 911 the day of the incident, he said "she aimed the gun at us and she shot."

    In August 2011, a judge rejected a motion by Alexander's attorney to grant her immunity under the "stand your ground" law. According to the judge's order, "there is insufficient evidence that the Defendant reasonably believed deadly force was needed to prevent death or great bodily harm to herself," and that the fact that she came back into the home, instead of leaving out the front or back door "is inconsistent with a person who is in genuine fear for her life."

    She had a means of escape, so, this seems to be pretty obvious that SYG shouldn't apply.


    Then if she (3.67 / 3) (#60)
    by Ga6thDem on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:58:27 AM EST
    had a way to escape so did Zimmerman. He could have gone back to his car.

    Suffice to say (3.50 / 2) (#67)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:25:17 PM EST
    without rehashing the whole case - the point in time that matters is that point where he was pinned to the ground and felt he had no meaans of escape.

    You may now return to the non-Zimmerman discussion.


    Sadly, this blog will never return (4.00 / 4) (#70)
    by shoephone on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:40:16 PM EST
    The place has been trashed.

    Yes (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 12:45:46 PM EST
    Not the first time though... lol

    Please note that he who should (3.50 / 2) (#79)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:15:59 PM EST
    not be mentioned in the Open Threads was not mentioned by Ga6thDem in Comment #31, by  ScottW714 in Comment #39 or by me in Comment #48. We were discussing another possible case, the merits of the law and how it is applied in Florida. You made the choice to unnecessarily IMO bring this topic into the conversation.

    Please see comment #54 by Scott (none / 0) (#81)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:17:52 PM EST
    And of course, it was implied in your "Seems SYG doesn't apply to everyone in Florida" comment.

    You know the last time I looked (5.00 / 2) (#85)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:53:43 PM EST
    #54 comes after #49 which is the number of your comment hijacked the thread from talking about another shooting case (comment #31), the effectiveness of Stand Your Ground in Florida (comment #39) and whether or not Stand your Ground is applied evenly in Florida (comment #48). The name was not brought up by Scott or anyone else prior to you choosing to introduce it into the conversation in your comment #49.  

    Your assumptions about what I was applying in my comment is a prime example of the old adage of the word assume. The is a whole series of instances in Florida where the law has been in an haphazard manner.

    Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied

    Let me restate this particular case where the individual was not even charged let alone receive a sentence of 20 years:

    During an argument at a 2009 party in Fort Myers, Omar Bonilla fired his gun into the ground and beat Demarro Battle, then went inside and gave the gun to a friend. If Battle feared for his life, he had time to flee. Instead, he got a gun from his car and returned to shoot Bonilla three times, including once in the back. Battle was not charged in the slaying.

    Comment #54 (none / 0) (#82)
    by sj on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:36:17 PM EST
    comes after comment #49. As to
    ...implied in your "Seems SYG doesn't apply to everyone in Florida" comment.
    When you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

    I Think Because the Ratings... (none / 0) (#84)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:40:12 PM EST
    ...they got out of order.  I don't believe GZ can't be mentioned, it just can't be the topic.  The cases somewhat similar and in Florida, or any case for that matter, are going to invoke GZ as a side note.  If you follow the parent it makes far more sense.

    As I mentioned below, I have zero desire to rehash what has been settled.


    Jeralyn has made an request (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:10:02 PM EST
    that the case not be discussed in the Open Threads.

    Personally I would like to discuss the Stand Your Ground law and how it is applied in Florida without the discussion of that particular case.



    Seems Like Self Defense Wouldn't Apply... (none / 0) (#54)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:26:57 AM EST
    ...but SYG, to me means your ground, aka your home/kids.  The whole point of stand your ground is you don't have to flee, if you can, no ?

    The similarity is that GZ followed the TM, same as her going back into the home.  Not dead on, but both could have left the scene.

    But neither should apply, no one was shot.  It's insane that someone get 20 years for firing a gun that didn't hit anyone.


    Well (none / 0) (#56)
    by jbindc on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:35:12 AM EST
    The whole "GZ followed TM"  - a) he wasn't "following" (as far as the evidence shows), as the time of the attack, and in fact was either standing still or had turned back and was walking to his vehicle; and b) he wasn't brandishing his weapon at the time.

    And I can't think of ANY situation where, once you flee and escape perceived danger, that you are allowed to come back into the situation and shoot at someone (or shoot someone) and claim self defense (or SYG).


    If this is going to morph into a (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Anne on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:44:38 AM EST
    discussion about Zimmerman, it probably needs to head over to a Zimmerman thread, so the Open can retain its Zimmerman-free status.



    I wasn't Going There... (none / 0) (#59)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 10:52:48 AM EST
    ...just pointing out why some people might find similarities.  I have zero interest in rehashing what has been decided.

    Too late, Anne. (none / 0) (#93)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:15:58 PM EST
    It's already tumbled off that hilltop and is descending rapidly.



    Stand your Ground in Florida (none / 0) (#76)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:03:07 PM EST
    Who gets 20 years in jail and who doesn't even get charged.

    Cases with similar facts show surprising -- sometimes shocking -- differences in outcomes. If you claim "stand your ground" as the reason you shot someone, what happens to you can depend less on the merits of the case than on who you are, whom you kill and where your case is decided.
    During an argument at a 2009 party in Fort Myers, Omar Bonilla fired his gun into the ground and beat Demarro Battle, then went inside and gave the gun to a friend. If Battle feared for his life, he had time to flee. Instead, he got a gun from his car and returned to shoot Bonilla three times, including once in the back. Battle was not charged in the slaying. link

    Not Similar (none / 0) (#83)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:37:48 PM EST
    IMO the sentence is absurd and should be thrown out, no one got hurt, and another indication that Corey should never work again.

    Not SYG or self-defense though by any stretch, imo. Alexander's husband said "I am outta here" and she said "I've got something for you." Then fired the shots. This was recorded on her husband's 911 call.

    So for one, you cannot fire warning shots, only death shots when standing your ground, and two, if the person is going to leave you cannot tell them that they are not going to leave because you are going to shoot them first.


    Not similar?? (none / 0) (#86)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 01:54:36 PM EST
    Omar then went inside and gave the gun to a friend. He did not just say "I am outta here," he left the scene of the fight. Battle got a gun from his car and returned to shoot Bonilla three times, including once in the back. Battle was not charged in the slaying.

    Different, Not Similar Case (none / 0) (#89)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:04:09 PM EST
    Sorry, I thought you were referring to Marissa Alexander case.. also prosecuted by COrey..

    I will admit that they are not similar (none / 0) (#88)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:02:42 PM EST
    in the fact that when Alexander fired her gun, no one died and when Battle shot Bonilla three times after Bonilla removed himself from the scene, Bonilla was definitely dead.

    No (none / 0) (#90)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:06:24 PM EST
    Alexander case is not similar to Zimmerman case. As I said, I misread your comment and thought you were referring to Alexander.

    I mentioned the Alexander case (none / 0) (#96)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:24:38 PM EST
    where I though the sentence was unjust and more than excessive. Later I compared her case to another occurrence in Florida, where Demarro Battle shot Omar Bonilla shot 3 times and was not charged. No comparison to any other case was made by me. I also linked to an article on various cases where the results on Stand Your Ground in FL were from my POV so inconsistent as to make a mockery of the law.

    If you think the "law" is applied in an uniform manner in Florida, I guess there is not much more for me to say.


    Geez MO (none / 0) (#97)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:26:36 PM EST
    Please drop it, I said I was sorry that I misread your comment.
    My comment did not relate to yours, OK.

    I guess I misread your last (none / 0) (#98)
    by MO Blue on Thu Jul 18, 2013 at 02:32:51 PM EST
    comment also. I will be more than happy to discontinue the discussion.