Wednesday Night Open Thread

Long day at work, and the TL kid is coming over for dinner -- Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    A gal at work went to see a Nugent show (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Rupe on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:10:45 PM EST
    She remarked: "Wow, he really hates Obama".  She admits she knows nothing about "any of that stuff" (politics) but her fiancee and his family are right wing lunatics, so its a daily struggle just to at least refute the nonsense they try to plant in her head.

    Something about talking to a person about politics that knows nothing about it but who offers deference to your opinion feels slimy though, like I could brain wash her if I wanted to.  Is it wrong to proselytize when there's no push-back?

    Look at it this way (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:35:57 PM EST
    There's a reason why the majority of Americans have an extremely negative opinion of the GOP and Nugent is just one reason.

    Nugent (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 08:22:02 PM EST
    isn't exactly a walking argument for the virtues of being "drug free" rock star, is he?

    He's the guy who should've taken all the stuff that Syd Barret and Peter Green ended up taking..


    Maybe he wouldn't be so f'ing insane if he did (none / 0) (#12)
    by Rupe on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 09:13:00 PM EST
    No, it's not (none / 0) (#19)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 11:46:09 PM EST
    But with folks like that, it doesn't hurt to be as gentle and rational as possible.

    It's a vote, you know what I mean?


    Strange nightmare... (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jeffinalabama on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:19:04 AM EST
    I awoke friday morning at 3am having had a horrible dream about the Bretton Woods Conference.

    Don't ask me... I had to rise, turn on the computer, and look it up to check parts of my dream. I guess I have serious subconscious issues with the IMF and World Bank, lolol!

    That was a nightmare. (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by caseyOR on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 09:25:23 AM EST
    International monetary policy. Man, it will scare the begeezus out of you.

    I hope (5.00 / 3) (#47)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 10:02:05 AM EST
    you're doing well and your treatment is not too hard on you.

    What is Tracy Martin trying to hide? (1.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Redbrow on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:17:17 PM EST
    MSNBC has a new story about Tracy's call to the police that includes audio of the call. It reveals several inconsistencies .

    One thing is how Tracy states he is staying with a girlfriend;not fiance as spun by Crump/Julison. Chad was not Trayvon's little brother.

    The more important statement is "Martin goes on to say he hasn't seen his son since 8 or 8:30 the prior night. "

    This makes no sense since Tracy and Green were reportedly at the All Star Game at that time.

    It also conflict with this statement made by Tracy a few weeks ago. "It's something I will never get over. I had talked to my son between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m., then 12-13 hours later I found out that he was dead. He was three weeks from turning 17. I know my son was a good kid who had a future. He was very responsible. If he said he was going to the movies or to the store, I know he was doing that," Martin said.

    Then there is this video where Tracy claims he last spoke with Trayvon about ordering pizza. This video also has Tracy slipping up and confirming Brandy Greens earlier statement that Trayvon was just on the porch prior to the confrontation with Zimmerman. @0:40 Tracy unequivocally states "I knew he was going to the back of the house, he was sitting out there"

    It seems Tracy may have been projecting when he said "I feel it was a cover up from the beginning. I feel that they're hiding something. What is it they're hiding I don't know. Why they're protecting him so much I have no idea."

    Seriously? (4.33 / 6) (#17)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 11:17:07 PM EST
    "What is Tracy Martin trying to hide?"

    You know what? Don't even go there. You're not the Sanford PD homicide detective, you're not the State's Attorney who's trying the case, you're not the defense counsel who clearly has his work cut out for him -- all of which is actually a good thing in my estimation, because you're not making any sense at all.

    But in the meantime, let's understand one thing. Tracy Martin isn't the one who's been accused of a crime here.

    More to the point, he and Trayvon's mother are actually victims in this case, because their unarmed son was shot dead with nothing but a can of Arizona Iced Tea and a bag of Skittles on his person. They're the grieving parents. They deserve to be cut some slack here, and they deserve some honest answers as a means to gain some sense of closure to their family tragedy. They have a stake in this case, whereas you do not.

    Yet here you are, with your accusatory tone -- "What is Tracy Martin trying to hide?" -- implying that somehow, HE'S the one who's engaged in a cover-up or committed a crime.

    Who do you think you are -- Nancy Grace?

    I'm sorry, but your question is simply beyond nonsensical, and your insinuation is beyond disgusting. There is nothing that Tracy Martin could have possibly done that night, which would require him to cover it up. Period.

    Finally, this is not a game in which one chooses one side or the other and then cheers them on, because the Lord's honest truth be told, regardless of the ultimate legal outcome here, there are going to be no winners.

    One young man is dead, another young man's freedom is now at stake because of it, and two entire families have been completely upended and forever changed by the events of that night in question -- and not for the better, I can assure you. This is now a matter for the court to decide, and not you or me or anyone else.

    So, get out of the right-wing fever swamp you're currently wading in, and get a clue. Seriously.



    If there is evidence (1.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Redbrow on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 11:33:39 PM EST
    that Trayvon made it home that night it would change the whole dynamic of the case.

    Why would Tracy Martin's story change so much? You are welcome to use the facts I posted and come up with your own theory.

    Instead, you engage in ad hominem attacks against me.

    I am not right-wing or a republican. Far from it.

    Maybe your bias stems from my handle Redbrow. It is the literal english translation of my family name. It has nothing to do with red state BS or red communism.


    Gee, maybe he was, you know (1.00 / 1) (#20)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 11:48:26 PM EST
    a wee bit traumatized by his son getting shot to death?  Or before that, by the fact he'd apparently disappeared?

    He did not know his son was dead (none / 0) (#21)
    by Redbrow on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 12:08:44 AM EST
    when he made that call, unless you  are suggesting otherwise. Why would he say he last saw Trayvon at around 8? It needs to be followed up.

    Brandy Green's porch statement was dismissed as the result of trauma and I entertained that explanation, especially since it was the day she learned of the death. But when I saw the video of Tracy making essentially the same claim weeks after the incident, it was not so easy to dismiss. It should be investigated.

    The other statement by Martin regarding speaking with Trayvon between 2-3 was made in late May.


    Donald Gets A 5 (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by daring grace on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 11:55:07 AM EST
    from me...for the Nancy Grace reference alone, you earned it.

    We still do not know (none / 0) (#22)
    by Redbrow on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 12:21:14 AM EST
    if Zimmerman was a victim here.

    Does he deserve to be cut some slack here, and deserve some honest answers?

    Can we dismiss all of his statements to the police, particularly the inconsistencies if there are any?

    Can we excuse his Zimmerman and his wife not being completely honest due to the trauma of being assaulted and being forced to defend himself by taking a human life?


    This is just one reason 'progressives' don't like (3.67 / 3) (#16)
    by ZtoA on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 11:09:39 PM EST
    this case. In order to 'defend' GZ it seems necessary to prosecute TM - and his whole family.  And TM does NOT get a legal defense - very unequal since GZ gets one. TM is a youngster who was intentionally shot dead by an adult man who's grieving family is being maligned. The comments make it seem like the highschooler asked to be shot dead. These (tea party? nutso right wingers) commenters not only defame the innocent (TM's family) but also really put criminal defense in a horrible light. J, I know you are happy to have these commenters, but they do not reflect well on what, I believe, you are ultimately interested in.

    And of course... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Redbrow on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:28:48 PM EST
    obviously Trayvon passed away well before 8-8:30.

    Maybe that is what Chad told them. It is possible that he did not remember the exact time, just that it was dark and he saw Trayvon on the porch.


    Is there a print version of that MSNBC story... (none / 0) (#5)
    by unitron on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:32:21 PM EST
    ...to which you could provide a link, or was it just a video thing?

    sorry (none / 0) (#6)
    by Redbrow on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:34:00 PM EST
    Here is the link.

    here's the link (none / 0) (#7)
    by SuzieTampa on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:35:07 PM EST
    girlfriend/fiancee (none / 0) (#10)
    by SuzieTampa on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:43:34 PM EST
    I've heard many lower-income people use fiance/fiancee to describe a serious relationship. It's a step up from boyfriend/girlfriend.  

    A question & a comment... (none / 0) (#27)
    by heidelja on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 09:42:02 AM EST
    Q - Was a house key found on TM? I have never heard!

    C - Just a smidgen of the audio was aired by local Orlando news I saw. No real thoughts or opinions innuendos spoken by the reporters as has been so typical for other details.


    Same question I had (none / 0) (#28)
    by Cylinder on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 10:11:41 AM EST
    Was a house key found on TM? I have never heard!

    The townhomes have keyless entry. You can find this from the realty site.


    This just in... (none / 0) (#3)
    by unitron on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:20:39 PM EST
    new post on Zimmerman and firing (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 11:03:11 PM EST
    of police chief here.

    Wow. (none / 0) (#8)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 07:35:50 PM EST
    This is the head of the DEA?  Clue.less.

    I do love me some Jared Polis (in a purely political sense) though.

    Cliff Notes for Leonhart... (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 11:10:25 AM EST
    The DEA is the most dangerous substance to our national health, more dangerous than any drug could ever be.

    Watched Anonymous tonight (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 10:52:12 PM EST
    Loved it

    For oculus (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Jun 20, 2012 at 10:59:06 PM EST
    About that bad dog on a laminate floor.  I have a laminate floor now, and a couple of pizza thieves too.  My husband cracks up whenever they get caught doing something like that, they just can't even begin to get the hell out of there. He asks me if I demanded this floor deliberately for bad dog purposes?  Maybe

    My Roomba is still going strong though.  It has been used badly these days, looks all beat up now, got caught under a few things, but it was a great buy.  I love it.


    I've got wood floors (none / 0) (#23)
    by nycstray on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 12:43:09 AM EST
    same effect :D Nuttin' like watching my Whirlwind Wild Child bustin' around in trouble or not! She has 3 speeds. Trot, gallop and full out run. Lots of slipping and sliding . . .

    So They are Worth the $$ ? (none / 0) (#32)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 11:10:43 AM EST
    I have tile & wood and a dog who sheds.

    Do you just plug it in and empty it from time to time ?  How long do they last ?


    I got a pet model Roomba (none / 0) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 11:22:25 AM EST
    I have to empty it everytime it runs, and clean the brushes.  If you get one read the paperwork about cleaning the moving parts well, you usually just need to remove the pet hair or human hair that gets wrapped around the brush system but once you have the drill down its easy to do, takes me a few minutes.  The floors are almost always blissfully clean now, no little cooties getting stuck to your feet.

    We did have a problem with it getting stuck between the floor and the bottom of our kitchen cabinets.  It would get wedged in and we'd find it the next morning.  My husband ran a piece of molding under all of the cabinets so that instead of getting itself wedged in it feels resistance and backs off.  It will suck up some cords, doesn't damage them but can't clean then either.  So you end up creating ways for cords to be out of its range behind tvs, things like that.


    This is pretty cool (none / 0) (#24)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 06:39:33 AM EST
    Missile technology put to good use - tracking Kevin Durant's movements on the court

    In political news (none / 0) (#25)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 08:56:26 AM EST
    It seems that at least a half a dozen Democratic officials (inclduing Sen. Joe Manchin and Governor Earl Ray Tomblin of West Virginia) have stated that they will not be attending the Democratic National Convention to help Obama officially get nominated.

    Has this been common in the past?

    And, in other news, this seems to be a surprise -

    Democratic hopes of recapturing the House are dimming as a series of race-by-race setbacks and economic uncertainty suggest that the 25 seats they need to net might be out of reach.

    The Hill projects that Democrats will net somewhere between 10 and 15 seats, assuming the presidential election remains a close contest.

    But this could be encouraging:

    The situation for the left is slightly better in the Senate, where strong recruitment and the surprise retirement of Sen. Olympia Snowe (R-Maine) has increased Democrats' odds of holding the upper chamber.

    George Zimmerman written statement posted... (none / 0) (#26)
    by magster on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 09:02:24 AM EST
    Trayvon's last words: "You got me" (none / 0) (#29)
    by heidelja on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 10:20:29 AM EST
    Per http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-06-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-defense-documents-20120621_1 _shooting-death-statements-defense

    In video and audio evidence released this morning, Zimmerman is heard for the first time in his own words detailing his version of what happened the rainy February night he fatally shot the 17-year-old.

    Benjamin Crump, an attorney for Trayvon's family, said after reviewing the evidence "it is clear to us and should be to everybody, why the special prosecutor charged George Zimmerman with second-degree murder."

    Specifically, Crump said Zimmerman was inconsistent in his statements, and altered his explanation of why he got out of his vehicle and walked in Trayvon's direction.

    There were a couple things that struck me as... (none / 0) (#30)
    by magster on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 10:48:06 AM EST
    ... inconsistent between the statement and the 911 call. I don't recall GZ attempting to get out of the truck to look at a street sign as he was talking to the dispatcher, or that TM confronted GZ the first time circling the truck while GZ was in the truck.

    Also, if GZ was so powerless to escape TM's beatdown, how did he get access to unholster his gun?


    I am very intrigued... (none / 0) (#36)
    by heidelja on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 01:53:16 PM EST
    ...to understand how/why people perceive things to be "inconsistent" for GZ! I am not attacking you by writing this.  I think that some find something new, or additional, in a "differing" statement and hence conclude then that one is inconsistent.

    My intuitive perecption all along from GZ's 4+ min "911" call on Feb 26 has been that GZ got out of his vechicle because he did not now "his" location.  GZ was asked for it 2-3 times by the "operator" during his call and it was always changing and he was wishy-washy when giving it. When TM disappeared from view he did not know "his" (TM's) last location.  To look more closely at the building numbers he got out of his vehicle to look. He did not state this under the duress of his call on Feb 26, but he did so on Feb 27 when doing his walkthrough.  

    It appears from the released video today from Feb 27 that a number is not on the buidling facing west where GZ got out of his vehicle.  To find a number GZ crossed over along the sidewalk forming the top of the "T" to the other front side of buidlings facing east to find a building number.

    TO ME all seems very consistent to how I have perceived it and nothing is changed, but only supported. Although, I am a little dumbfounded about GZ saying "TM circled" his vehicle.  Although, on the call audio he says TM was just looking at him....which must be the point where GZ describes later he "circled."  Maybe TM looked and "did a circle" to turn around... not necessarily "circled the vehicle." It is one of semantics over how one might under stress be trying to describe an extremely adverse event as convincely, thoroughly and truthfully as possible.  Understate it too much and ones are not convinced it is true.  Overstate it and one is accused of inconsistencies and go unbelieved.

    My general point, though, is why when ones might hear new information (not necessarily inconsistent or incongruent) they suggest ones story has changed causing the one to lose credibility?  Not that you have necessarily have.  


    ALL22 Will be Available to the General Public (none / 0) (#34)
    by ScottW714 on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 11:37:48 AM EST
    Die Hard football Fans know what All22 is.

    The NFL has a master camera that covers the entire field of play that they doesn't release to the public or even any commentators.  It was strictly for the coaches and players.

    It's why you can never see who's doing what in the secondary and what's going on at the line of scrimmage at the same time.  The networks try and patch different angles, but they never have all 22 players in one view.

    Which often makes deep interceptions/catches hard to judge in regards to the competency of the QB.  And last year it really sucked in Houston who had a 3rd string QB.

    Now it for sale, and while I doubt many will buy it for the $69, certainly the commentators will have it their arsenal.  How we can see if the what the secondary is up to while the QB is in the pocket.

    No mention if they will use this during play or just for evaluation after the fact.

    Friday, on "Moyers on America" (none / 0) (#37)
    by sj on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 02:37:23 PM EST
    ... Yves Smith and Matt Taibbi.  Now, if some one can just help me figure out how to actually check my local listings...

    It asks for your zip code (none / 0) (#38)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 04:06:33 PM EST
    I know, right? (none / 0) (#39)
    by sj on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 04:39:20 PM EST
    And it comes up with no results.  And yet, I know that I have occasionally encountered the program.  Or at least that's what I thought.

    Oh well, I'll do a DVR search and see what happens.  If worst comes to worst and it really isn't being broadcast locally I can internet watch it.


    Isn't he still on PBS? (none / 0) (#40)
    by jbindc on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 04:46:52 PM EST
    You're in Maryland, right?  It's not on Maryland Public TV?

    I found it at when I (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by sj on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 12:17:59 PM EST
    DVR searched for it.  I can never remember the call letters (MPT -- I'll remember for about the next day or so) or number of the local PBS station (already re-forgotten).  ::sigh::

    Apparently it's being broadcast a number of times and I will definitely DVR it.  But I just took another look at Moyers' website and it is an absolute treasure trove of video.

    Open sesame.

    I'm going to get a bottle of wine, work on some sort of art project and have a marathon.


    Sounds like (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by jbindc on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 12:21:18 PM EST
    A fabulous weekend.



    Try searching for (none / 0) (#41)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 05:07:17 PM EST
    "Moyers and Company" on the online TV guide for your cable provider.  I tried with Comcast to find "Moyers in America," but it didn't come up.  When I tried "Moyers and Company," I got several listings, including the show with Yves Smith and Matt Taibbi .  Of course, this was on Comcast's "XFinity TV."  Which is its premier service.  Which we don't get.  (What can I say?  We're cheap.)  It may eventually be available on podcast or some down-loadable form.

    Okay, it looks like (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Zorba on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 05:23:29 PM EST
    it will be available on Comcast Sunday at 6:00 PM and Monday at 5:00 PM.  Try going to the Bill Moyers website and entering your info there.

    Yves Smith and Matt Taibbi (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 04:24:32 AM EST
    What a great duo! Talk about who you'd like to have a beer with.

    Acerbic as sulfuric acid, while driving the Wingers nuts trying to find flaws in their revelations.

    The only thing that would make the program absolutely one for the ages would be if Moyers brought in Charlie Pierce to be co-moderator.


    Thanks, Zorba (none / 0) (#43)
    by sj on Thu Jun 21, 2012 at 06:27:52 PM EST
    For my zip code, and provider - (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Anne on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:00:49 AM EST
    DirecTVn - it will be on this Sunday at 4:00 pm on MD Public TV; I will be at a graduation party, so will definitely record!

    Although, if I'm not mistaken, Moyers usually makes his shows available online, so anyone who can't see it on the TV should check that out.


    Great reminder (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by NYShooter on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 11:41:58 AM EST
    There's a treasure trove of great programs & Videos archived on your PBS web sites.

    @Lina Inverse (none / 0) (#52)
    by Dilbert By Day on Fri Jun 22, 2012 at 02:57:52 PM EST
    in response to (#255) in the "George Zimmerman Statements and Reenactment" thread.

    On the issue of carrying at the "5 o'clock," roger that, Lina Inverse. I used to carry waistband center of back. To a young man, aesthetics meant everything.

    While under the influence of adrenaline, and considering the furious pace at which street altercations occur, combatants often sustain serious injuries that go unnoticed until after the set-to has ended. You raise a legitimate point, but under the circumstances, I think it's unlikely that GZ had either the time, or the state of mind to become cognizant of the minor discomfort associated with his weapon. He had larger fish to fry.

    Zimmerman did know where his gun was located however, and when opportunity allowed (rolled/elevated right hip), he accessed it. Given Martin's position relative to GZ, and Zimmerman's holster, the question is whether his hip remained elevated long enough for Martin to put eyes on the weapon, utter the rather incongruous statement "You're going to die tonight," and for GZ to respond by out drawing him. All possibilities, but questionable none the less.

    If I could convince the judge or a jury that the victim was reaching for my weapon with the stated intent to use it on me, this would certainly bolster my self defense claim.

    * For the record, I'm a gun toting liberal, ex-jar head 65 - 67 , and a resident of Northern New Mexico. I do not support the NRA, and given my current array of left-leaning bumper stickers, I avoid driving north through Colorado Springs at all costs ;>)