Monday Afternoon Open Thread

Their banks may be insolvent, but their soccer teams are not - Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece advance to the quarterfinals of Euro2012.

The Germans and the Czechs also have advanced. France, England and host Ukraine are battling for the last 2 spots in the quarters.

Open Thread.

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    Roger Clemens (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by NYShooter on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 03:47:37 PM EST
    Not Guilty on all counts!

    A glorious day (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by bmaz on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 03:48:52 PM EST
    it is too. Could not happen to a dirtier investigator than Jeff Novitsky.

    Novitsky's the one who went after Lance Armstrong (none / 0) (#12)
    by Angel on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 06:02:28 PM EST
    and lost.   He needs to find a new career, he isn't doing so well as a federal agent.

    Good (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Zorba on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 03:58:53 PM EST
    It was a ridiculous waste of money, just a stupid trial in the first place.  This, the John Edwards trial.....just what is it with some of these federal prosecutors?

    Yes, I want my money back (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 04:32:29 PM EST
    So do I (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Zorba on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 05:21:32 PM EST
    But we ain't gonna get it.   ;-)

    The DOJ with egg on their face... (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:19:17 AM EST
    is worth it's weight in gold though;)

    It coulda been worse, they coulda wasted all that money on this nonsense and won, wasting even more money fighting the inevitable appeals and imprisoning the 'Roided Rocket.  


    I don't think they care (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:27:41 AM EST
    Will this end the stupid?  Can we get a bankster in cuffs now? How about Rick Scott who was a huge Medicare/Medicaid cheater?

    How long (none / 0) (#61)
    by Zorba on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 03:53:40 PM EST
    did the Barry Bonds investigation go on?  I think something like seven years, and at the end, he was convicted of one count of obstruction of justice, and sentenced to 30 days house arrest, probation, community service, yadda, yadda.  And Bonds is appealing that, so it ain't over.  I wonder how much that investigation and trial cost us (the US taxpayer)?

    Are you employed by (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by indy in sc on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 03:57:33 PM EST

    Our banks may be insolvent, but our soccer teams are not!

    I think this could be a very successful tourism campaign!

    Europe or Bust? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 04:31:27 PM EST
    Europe..cuz it's Bust?  Europe while it's Bust?

    and what would a true fan choose...? (none / 0) (#7)
    by magster on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 04:31:40 PM EST
    A solvent banking system or a freaking championship?!!!

    As the teams I root for are so far removed from championship-like results, I can ask that question as a holier-than-thou'er.


    Some recommended theatre in New York (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by Dadler on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 04:49:27 PM EST
    Our last night here in the city.  Just wanted to pump a couple of New York shows by friends of mine.

    First, my old chum and former college professor and all-around sweet and brilliant guy, Carey Harrison (son of Sir Rex), has written and directed his annual play for he and his wife's Woodstock Players theatre company.  The play is HEDGEROW SPECIMEN (link), an intense and intimate piece of live drama being staged at the converted barn in the woods, the Byrdcliffe Theatre (part of the century old Byrdcliffe Artists' Colony.)  If you are anywhere near Woodstock this coming weekend, check it out, and tell Carey I sent you.

    Second, here in the city, my old college friend and wonderful talent, Andrew Weems, is starring in a one man show he wrote called DAMASCUS (link) at the Acting Company's tiny 4th Street Theatre in the East Village.  Another intimate and intense and funny piece, well worth checking out.  Please do.  

    Broadway is big and expensive, these shows are small and cheap.  Theatre you can watch the sweat dripping from, up close and personal, just the way stagecraft should be.

    Obama picks.... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:03:46 AM EST
    John Kerry to play Romney in mock debates.

    Ironic - one millionaire, helping another millionaire prep for debate with another millionaire.

    I wonder what the poor folks are doin' tonight.

    Rolling on the floor (none / 0) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:14:44 AM EST
    It is obvious to everyone that their father was the same milkman.  I guess they got their moral clarity from their mothers :)

    Obama is not a millionaire (none / 0) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:25:30 AM EST
    on the same level either, and Kerry married most of his....not the same as being born entitled like Mitt.  Not the same at all.

    Obama has the potential to be a big millionaire after he leaves office.

    Kerry is rather stoic like Romney, same height isn't he?  Same hair?  Kerry just needs to leave about 20 I.Q. pts at the door and he's a good stand in.


    I was thinking (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:32:33 AM EST
    Kerry is more boring than Romney and talks more to obfuscate.  You listen to Kerry, and if you haven't fallen asleep, you still are wondering, "What the h3ll did he just say?"

    As for Obama not being as big a millionaire - so what?  You know the old saying (paraphrasing here), "A million here, a million there, pretty soon you're talking about real money."

    The fact that they are all so out of touch with most Americans is laughable that they are going to "debate" about what's best for us. (And don't get me started on the fact that these are not actual "debates" but rather, free air time for the candidates to try out new bullet point slogans that will fit on a bumper sticker).


    Hey, you were the one who brought (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:46:14 AM EST
    up millionaires....I just elaborated :)

    Yeah (none / 0) (#39)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:59:34 AM EST
    They are all so out of touch it's ridiculous.

    Bad theater for all.


    I dunno (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:18:34 AM EST
    if you won the lottery, would you forget your entire life before said lottery winning?

    I think John Kerry is the perfect pick to play Romney, but then I've been saying for a while that I think Romney is the GOP version of Kerry.

    Kerry might have married most of his money, but he still comes from privelage and a similar background as the Romney/Bush blue blood types.  And Romney is about as stiff.  Plus Kerry probably knows his stuff.


    Oh, I'm sure it's a good pick (none / 0) (#43)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:57:10 AM EST
    Kerry being from Mass and all - he would have had a little more up close experience in viewing the Romney governorship (not that Kerry was in Mass much anyways).

    I just get a kick out of this kind of stuff making front page news.


    It's perfect (none / 0) (#44)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:06:41 PM EST
    Romney wasn't in MA either while he was governor.

    Makes a perfect circle then (none / 0) (#45)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:14:22 PM EST
    and Obama didn't spend a whole lot of time at his job in the Senate when he ran.

    How nice that they have something in common - being millionaires who don't have to really do their jobs!


    it's not really Kerry's job as senator (none / 0) (#46)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:34:05 PM EST
    to spend a lot of time in MA.  Although he did also have his presidential run.

    The other difference with Romney is that he actively failed at his job - in other words, it's not just that he wasn't present, it's that he worked against the state.  We would've been better off if he had just forgotten us entirely.

    I know Obama's rich, but comparing him to the Romneys or Kerrys is just silly.  As Chris Rock would say, there's rich, and then there's wealthy.  Before he was president, Obama wouldn't even fit John McCain's definition of rich.  Before he was famous, he wouldn't fit anyone's.


    Um (none / 0) (#47)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    It really doesn't matter now.

    Obama is rich.

    He also is powerful.

    He is not "in touch" with regular people, and I would argue, he never really was - at least not for a very long time now.

    And it IS part of Kerry's job to spend some time in MA (as opposed to DC or PA), because he represents the state and its people and should actually, you know, be there.


    well his job is to be in DC (none / 0) (#48)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:46:10 PM EST
    for the most part, but yes he does come home occasionally and has staff here.  He is not as good at constituent services as he should be, he's certainly no TK, but we don't pay him to be here, we pay him to be in DC.  That's a lot different than governor, where it's your job to be here running the day to day.

    What is a "regular" person, and why would you say Obama was never in touch with them?  Most people don't just forget their past.  I'm doing very different things than I was 10 years ago, but I'm still shaped by those experiences.


    His job (none / 0) (#51)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:14:04 PM EST
    is to represent the Commonwealth of Massachussetts and the people.  Now, all the Senators stay around DC - except when they get all their breaks - the month of December, the month of August, a week at the 4th of July, President's Day week, etc.  And then of course, many weeks, the Senate is not in session on Fridays (or Thursdays sometimes) - and they are supposed to be back (at least sometimes) in their home states.

    And I'm not going to rehash 2008 for you.  Obama grew up prvileged in Hawaii and Indonesia and attended private schools - not exactly what most people identify with.  He went to Occidental and Harvard, (briefly) worked at a big law firm and lived in Hyde Park, etc.  I don't begrudge him that - good for him.  But besides the fact that personally, he has always appeared to have trouble relating to people who don't attend cocktail parties, or who work at well paying white collar jobs (which is most people, by the way), is a huge weakness for him.  He can't seem to pull off empathy or even fake like he has a clue to understand their struggles.  I don't think it's malicious on his part - I think that's just him.  But it's real and it's a weakness and why many of those people, formerly Democrats, will be casting their ballots for Romney this year, even though he is even richer - they are willing to take a chance on someone new.


    by your definition (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by CST on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:19:07 PM EST
    John Kerry does his job.  He comes back to MA on occasion but it's not his job to be here all the time.  Why are we even still talking about that?

    Speaking of disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing.

    I can't believe I'm even defending John Kerry right now.  But he never abandoned MA or his job, although I'd like to see him unemployed some day.

    Thanks for not rehashing 08?  I know Obama's background.  My point is he wasn't a Romney or a Kerry or a Bush.  I'm so done with this conversation, see you in the other thread where you can continue yelling at me for being happy that people like immigrants.


    OMG (none / 0) (#55)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:28:17 PM EST
    Right - I'm "yelling" at you.


    You DO need that vaction - badly. And maybe a stiff drink.


    Ah well, CST (none / 0) (#63)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:13:44 PM EST
    don't ya know that it is in jbindc' political interest to play the "they are all millionaires & out-of-touch" game on such issues as discussed here. This variation of "a pox on both their houses" when deftly stated obscures any differences with others that might adversely reflect on Mr. Romney...and allows the commenter to position self as standing above all politics.

    Nice execution of dance counter-move w/jbindc (none / 0) (#62)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:08:39 PM EST
    You need new material, christine (none / 0) (#64)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:27:57 PM EST
    Yours is getting old, as are your pom-pons.

    Perhaps...we are both so, so predictable. (none / 0) (#65)
    by christinep on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:37:37 PM EST
    And let's face it (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:34:56 AM EST
    Romney' boring monotone vs. Obama's preachy style.  Ugh.

    Think Ill be watching something on the DVR those nights.


    The poli sci prof. I heard speak last (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:16:31 PM EST
    week was asked about 2008 candidate Obama and his kind of shying away from publicly appearing with African Americans.  But I remember when he did appear before large groups of AAs he became a Southern AA preacher.  An amazing abiity to shift for whatever audience.  

    Props respect... (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:06:00 AM EST
    to all those who took time out from their Father's Day to march in protest of the unconstitutional NYPD stop and frisk program.

    Banking is overrated (none / 0) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 04:29:43 PM EST
    Soccer, not so much

    Co host Ukraine. (none / 0) (#9)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 04:35:39 PM EST
    Not host Ukraine.  Silly American.

    Sorry about the Poles brotherman... (none / 0) (#26)
    by kdog on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21:29 AM EST
    hey they fared better than the Irish! Brutal.

    No need for sorrow, my friend. (none / 0) (#42)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 11:22:44 AM EST
    They played much better than I expected--had their chances to win every match.  Just couldn't get the timely goals.  

    Most importantly, they didn't lose to the Russians, which would have been a national shame.  Most definitely a case of a draw being as good as a win.  

    The Irish may not of had a good tourny--but they did enjoy themselves nonetheless!  


    The Arab Spring... (none / 0) (#13)
    by NYShooter on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 07:20:42 PM EST
    Muslim Brotherhood's candidate, Mohamed Morsi, wins Egypt's presidential election.

    New Orleans (none / 0) (#14)
    by ZtoA on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 11:40:26 PM EST
    my daughter is going to visit New Orleans next weekend and asked me about where to go. Its been nearly 40 years since I lived there, but I tried to sound like I knew something - which, of course, I don't. I worked on Jackson square doing portraits (such an art school rebel, and that was just the start). I lived in the french quarter and listened to lots of music (Louie Armstrong and others - plus lots of disco at after hours dance places)... but that was so very long ago and I hear the city changed so very much after Katrina. I told her as Venice is to Europe, NO is to the US....but is that true any more? The city is/was such a treasure, but I suspect it has remade itself and the next time I go it will be my daughter who will introduce it to me. Any suggestions for music and food in the french quarter? (no car and staying there somewhere)

    Ogden Museum (if she's a "museum" (none / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Mon Jun 18, 2012 at 11:47:46 PM EST
    person.  And there are several streets away from the French Quarter with interesting shops, including artist collectives of pottery.  In 1994 we enjoyed the zydeco at Maple St. Tavern (also not in the French Qtr.).  

    Thanks! I'll tell her (none / 0) (#33)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:45:20 AM EST
    I've dragged her to so many museums when she was young that she now likes them. I'm going to visit her in LA at the end of the month and LA has some of my favorite museums. I always go to the Getty, and they usually have some sort of early manuscript exhibit. Also the Huntington (books and gardens - an interesting harmonic with the Getty). I liked the old Broad when it was private in Venice. The Mocas are fun. And I'll try to fit in a couple of galleries. Might even try to see a book buyer. Do you have any favorite places?

    Here's my new fave: (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:58:30 AM EST
    Weisman Foundation

    Advance reservation required.  An amazing collection of 20th century art in a very beautiful setting.  

    I also really enjoy walking around the Getty Villa.  


    Huh. We go to the Pepperdine Weisman (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:56:30 PM EST
    museum pretty regularly. Is there a larger collection elsewhere? The website you linked to seems to have very little info...

    Try this link, which has a slide show: (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 12:59:09 PM EST

    Beverly Hills location.  


    Excellent, thanks. (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:23:37 PM EST
    Thanks again (none / 0) (#56)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:34:30 PM EST
    I've arranged for a tour. Should be wonderful.

    I went for the first time recently as (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:43:32 PM EST
    I hadn't heard of it.  Am ready to return soon.  An amazing setting for amazing art collection.  

    Well, if you would like (none / 0) (#58)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:09:16 PM EST
    a museum partner I'm going June 29th....

    Thanks. But that's the date of my tutoree's (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 02:13:41 PM EST
    middle school graduation and Spring Showcase (read open house).  I look forward to your review.  

    My Recommendations (none / 0) (#32)
    by ScottW714 on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:44:13 AM EST
    Pirates Alley Cafe - Cool little hole in the wall that serves traditional Absinthe with fire and sugar.

    Warehouse District - The hip area

    Royal Street - Loads of funky little Art Stores

    Magazine Street - down by the Bulldog is a little section of cool bars if you want to hang with locals.  Have to cab it from the FQ.

    And of course Cafe Du Monde for the beignets and one of my favorites, Arnaud's Remoulade is an a courtyard with a live jazz band and fantastic food.


    Arnaud's - I'd forgotten the name (none / 0) (#37)
    by ZtoA on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:56:40 AM EST
    And, yes Cafe Du Monde. I lived there a long long time ago, on Toulouse and Burgundy, and spent a stint doing portraits on Jackson Square near Cafe du Monde. Oysters for breakfast and beignets for dinner (even youth can't take that for more than a month or two tho). I was taking a bit of time off college and was annoyed at the art instruction because it was all so sloppy abstract expressionism. I love ab-ex but it not the extend of my interest. Even tho those quick sketch artists' work was tacky, man could they draw. The good ones did it professionally, summers in New Orleans winters in Nice. I learned a lot from them.

    Enterprise is in last six (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 04:44:42 AM EST
    cities being looked at for the title of America's most Patriotic City.  Who knew that you could even get into such a finalist position when 70% hate hate hate hate your President and a smaller swathe of you hate him so much you refer to him using the "N" word.

    It has been made obvious to me in recent years that I have frequently been unable to understand what defines an American as Patriotic, and I discover today my problem is getting even worse.

    This truck was going down the street tonight with one of those huge rebel flags mounted to its bed, spilling out behind the truck in the man made breeze.  My husband raised a hand to it as it went by while bellowing, "The most patriotic city in America!"

    I see (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by Ga6thDem on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 06:48:44 AM EST
    a lot of people confusing nationalism with patriotism. I think the south is a lot more "nationalistic" than they are "patriotic".

    A leak (none / 0) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:32:12 AM EST
    Rubio wasn't vetted by the Romney team for VP.  Is Rubio out?

    Rubio was a red herring (none / 0) (#19)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:33:05 AM EST
    Elaborate (none / 0) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:36:59 AM EST
    I just don't think (none / 0) (#21)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 09:54:10 AM EST
    He was a serious contender.  He was good to put out there as a test to see if "Latinos" (as if they are all one monolithic group) would show interest in Romney and the Republican Party - it was a "Look, we've got one over here!" kinda thing.  I think they were also testing it out in the hopes of winning Florida - Florida is a toss up right now, but I don't think Rubio will make the difference to the ticket (most VP candidates really don't make a huge difference anyway, but since it's close enough, Rubio on the ticket might make a difference. Obviously, the Romney campaign has weighted that against other candidates.) And maybe it would have been "too much Florida" - the Republican convention is in Tampa, remember, and they get to go first this year.

    Rubio was fun for the pundits to talk about breathlessly - He's young! He's Hispanic! He'll bring in the Latino vote! And maybe the Romney people just read Sunday's WaPo - Five Myths About Marco Rubio -  and changed their minds.

    My guess is they are looking for a "safe" pick - no Sarah Palins this time. Rob Portman, or a Mitch Daniels (if they could convince him).  Unless the polls start to swing the other way (today's RCP average has Obama by 0.7), then they may try to pull a rabbit out a hat with a surprise pick.


    That is what the leaking is saying (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:12:59 AM EST
    They want someone they deem safe.  What do they have that will give them this election though?  Romney stepped outside of Fox and Friends and had nothing to say that was tolerable to his base.  He is very much in trouble there.  I've always been surprised to read people who say that Romney is a good debater and well spoken, no he isn't.  I swear to god if he out debates Obama going toe to toe one time I'll eat a puppy (a stuffed animal puppy).

    Florida is a huge state to win too and Rubio is a darling.  They just said on the boobtube that nobody runs messaging like him in the Republican party at this time.  His facebook page is covered in love, he knows how to sound bite, he knows how to work em and make them cheer.  It is silly to think that he wouldn't make Florida really hard for Obama.

    I'm great if they don't pick him. In fact I'm better than great.  I think next weekend I'm going to throw a "They don't want Rubio" party.  I guess Mittens figures he can make up for everything lacking with all that money.  But the last time he stuffed dollars into all the holes in his jacket for the cameras and smiled, it was really destructive for him politically.


    I don't think (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:28:27 AM EST
    Mittens has to worry nearly as much about his base as Obama does.  The Republicans, the very conservative and evangelical ones, are caterwauling now, because we are still 5 months out from the election, and the poor darlings in the media don't have a lot to breathlessly report on, and they are grabbing anyone and everyone to get their analysis on the Republican base.  It's all to fill air time and to justify their very existence.

    But the base will come home - they are more disciplined than the Democrats, they loathe Obama (and some loathe the idea of a black man in the WH), and they loathe Obama's (cough) "socialist policies". They will be out in force in November.

    The Dems on the other hand - Obama has to woo his base back and pick up the independents who are leaving him in droves.  He has the harder job and has to walk a fine line.  We are seeing it now with the commercials and the emails and blogs and op-eds of the NYT -"Ooh, the boogey man Republicans are coming to eat your children!" This may work to fire up some of the Dem base, but it may not work on others who may stay home (or not vote for the top of the ticket) and wait for 2016. And it definitely can be a turn-off to those indies the Dems are carefully courting.

    That's not to say the "safe choice" theme vs. Rubio isn't being fueled some by the Romney campaign itself.  If a campaign looks too confident, they will lose voters.  If a campaign pulls out too far ahead, many people will stay home ("why bother?").  Both sides have to look like they are the underdog and are in a struggle.

    Personally, I wouldn't believe much that comes out of either campaign until a couple of weeks out from the election.  (I wouldn't believe much then either, but that's a different topic).  Right now is all about who can make the most noise - it's like throwing spaghetti on the wall -the campaigns throw all kind of sh!t out and hope one or two noodles stick and stay in the back of the minds of voters, regardless of whether or not it's true.  ("Death panels" ring a bell?)


    It is an election during one of the most (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:53:49 AM EST
    divisive times in our nations history.  And even Republicans have noticed that they aren't getting a constant stream of denial of service from their insurance companies.  Some of Obamacare has gone big time supported.

    No base IMO can be guaranteed to show up.  And Romney's base has lost its phucking mind and they have a tea party.  It looks like Ron Paul is going to demand platform changes during the convention in return for his delegates.  His people are meeting the day before the Republican Convention in Tampa.

    Sorry, but this go around, for the first time....I see my party as "falling in" on the same level as the Republican party.


    In the gutter (none / 0) (#36)
    by jbindc on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 10:55:39 AM EST
    A pox on both of their houses.

    Off road for everyone (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jun 19, 2012 at 01:26:08 PM EST