home

George Zimmerman Case: Timelines and Routes

I've generally stayed away from speculative discussions of timelines and possible routes of George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin the night Travyon Martin was shot, except in relation to the released discovery materials and other material released by the State or City of Sanford.

But we've covered the law and discovery this weekend, and commenters here want to discuss their theories. So here is a thread to do that.

I have put what I think the relevant times are below, as well my latest map showing the possible routes, followed by what I think are the likely possibilities. I don't think we have enough evidence to arrive at a final conclusion, so I don't make one. [More...]

First, a disclaimer: I am exceptionally geographically challenged. Every time I'm at a place where I can either go right or left, I choose the wrong way. I also have cannot visualize east or west, only right and left. (Without Jeep's directional compass in my dashboard, I'd be totally lost.)

Nonetheless, I have spent so much time studying visual of the neighborhood on maps, the official "plats" with lot numbers, and photographs of the neighborhood, and figuring out the streets and addresses of the relevant homes, especially those of potential witnesses (which I did confirm via Lexis/Nexis and public documents from the state's assessor's office), I'm willing to take a stab at it and don't mind being corrected. Here's my current map.

The times I am using [Edited from as originally posted by 10 seconds, because start time was 7:09:34 not 7:09:24 as I originally wrote. Dispatch record is here. ]:

7:09:34, GZ non-emergency call connects with dispatch. GZ and the dispatcher say goodbye and hang up 4:04 seconds later, at 7:13:38 (the last few seconds of recording are dead time after parties hang up, so I have excluded them.)

7:11:28: Time Trayvon starts running towards the back entrance according to GZ's call. It occurs 2:08 into the call, which starts at 7:09:24. Presumably, he is headed to the home of Ms. Green, his father's fiance.

7:13:38: The time GZ's call ends (4:04 seconds after it starts)

7:16:11: First 911 call comes in. Calculated from: The shot is heard in the first two 911 calls at 7:16:56. It occurs 45 seconds into first 911 call, which means that call came in at 7:16:11. Voices are heard immediately, so encounter is underway at 7:16:11

2 min. 43 sec: The time between the end of GZ's call at 7:13:38 and the first sounds of struggle at 7:16:11 is 2:43 seconds.

4 min. 39 sec: The time between when Trayvon started running towards the back entrance at 7:11:42, presumably headed to Ms. Green's home, and 7:16:11, when the first sounds of a struggle are heard in the first 911 call. 2:08 into GZ's call, which began at 7:09:34, or 7:11:42.

Where was George Zimmerman and what was he doing during the almost 3 minute period between the end of his non-emergency call and the time he and Trayvon Martin encountered each other?

Where did Trayvon Martin go and what was he doing during the almost 5 minute period between when he ran past GZ's car until they encountered each other?

The major issue if the case goes to a jury trial is whether the state can disprove that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. If GZ files a motion to dismiss claiming immunity from prosecution under Stand Your Ground, he must establish by a preponderance of the evidence that his use of lethal force was authorized under the Stand Your Ground statute.

We only have George Zimmerman's version of events from his non-emergency call, his statements to a witness at the scene that he shot in self-defense (which was overheard by another witness), statements made by father and his friend, Frank Taaffe, and police leaks which were endorsed as to substance in a Sanford press release. His version appears to be that he was parked near the cut-through that leads from Twin Trees Lane to Retreat View Circle when he called the non-emergency number to report a suspicious person.

Trayvon approached his vehicle and then took off, headed he thought, towards the back entrance, which happens to be near the home where Trayvon was staying. The operator told him he didn't need to follow Trayvon and asked for his address so police officers en route could locate him. GZ may have continued walking to Retreat View Circle to get an address, then turned back to return to his car. Or he may have turned back right away. On the way back to his car, he said Trayvon came up on his left and a verbal encounter took place, followed by GZ being punched and falling to ground, followed by Trayvon slamming his head against cement, as he was crying out for help. He then shot Trayvon.

On the map, I put his truck to the left of the cut-through, facing the direction of the entrance. That matches the Fox News photo placement of a white truck being examined by an officer taken the night of the shooting, where his friend Frank Taafe says he was parked and also matches up with a photo showing two white trucks taken by the crime scene tech the day after the shooting. Since GZ did a police re-enactment the day after the shooting, he may have parked his truck there to show where he had been parked the night before. This doesn't mean it is exactly where his truck was, or even that his truck was ever parked here. It's the general consensus of what those close to him say he told them, and it matches up with photographs and the leaked police report.

So my starting point for arriving at possible routes of both GZ and Trayvon is the place where GZ says he was parked, because that is where Trayvon would have passed him as GZ lost sight of him.

Also, the photos in discovery taken by crime scene Tech Diana Smith the day after the crime seem to follow GZ's stated route, the location of witnesses who said they heard or saw something, and the location of the body. That suggests to me she was tracking GZ's explanation since there was at that time no suggestion of what Trayvon was doing that night. According to her report, Crime Scene Tech Diana Smith arrived on scene to take pictures at 12:35 p.m. That was only four hours after police had notified Mr. Martin of Trayvon's death. At that time, no one had provided CST Smith with a version of Trayvon's route. Some of her photos:

Based on the above, it seems to me the key to determining what route GZ took and what he did in the 2:43 after his call ended is to figure out which way Trayvon may have gone. Here are some possibilities.

Possibility #1: Did Trayvon turn down Twin Trees Lane and cut over on the first breakthrough of houses to the sidewalk with shared backyards? If so, did he turn right to go home, or did he turn left and walk back up to the T?

If he turned left when reaching the shared backyards and went back up towards "The T” , did he confront GZ as he was walking back to his car, at or just to the west of the T? Or did GZ, as he was walking back to his car, look to his left when reaching the T, see Trayvon coming up the path to the T, and then stray from the direct route back to his car and head down the "T," encountering Trayvon?

Possibility #2: Did Trayvon pass Twin Trees Lane and take a right at the pet waste can at the "T", going down the sidewalk between the shared backyards, from which he could have reached the back of his house ? Did he reach his house and then decide to go back? Or did he turn onto the path at the T and stop at one of the first houses, waiting to see if GZ was following him? Did he remain in that spot until he saw GZ, who was walking back to his car, reach the T and then confront him?

Possibility #3: Did Trayvon pass both Twin Trees Lane and the "T", and then take a right on Retreat View Circle, headed to the front of his house? If so, did he get to his house, or did he cross back from Retreat View Circle to the shared walkway between the backyards at a break between houses, and go back up towards the T, where he encountered GZ?

A few huge missing variables in this: What time Zimmerman did GZ leave his his house and what route did he take driving to Target? He could have taken Retreat View Circle to the exit of the neighborhood, or Long Oaks to Twin Trees Lane to the exit. Where was he when he first saw Trayvon before the non-emergency call? What route did Trayvon take from the 7-11 into the neighborhood? Did he use a common shortcut cutting through houses?

As I said, I haven't reached a conclusion, and probably won't until more evidence is released. But I hope this is a good starting point by which to compare the new information.

So what do you think the evidence suggests so far as to the routes GZ and TM took and what they did in the minutes each had between when GZ saw Trayvon take off in the direction of the back entrance and the time the first sounds of their encounter were heard?

< Memorial Day Open Thread | David Brooks' Dishonest Invocation of Alexander Hamilton >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Re: 2 white trucks (5.00 / 0) (#38)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:05:04 AM EST
    I'd gladly give up some precision in just where on Twin Trees he was parked to know in which direction he was pointed and how he got there.

    unitron

    Where Was The Truck? (5.00 / 0) (#46)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:51:57 AM EST
    That matches the Fox News photo placement of a white truck being examined by an officer taken the night of the shooting, where his friend Frank Taafe says he was parked and also matches up with a photo showing two white trucks taken by the crime scene tech the day after the shooting.

    You've got the truck at J20 on the grid.

    Willisnewton seems to think Taaffe's position for the truck is at J18. I haven't spent enough time with the Taaffe material to verify that.

    I agree with Willisnewton that even J18 is too far east for a 'stationary truck' model.

    When I first started working the problem, I assumed the truck stationary, facing west at K17. Even that put Martin's position 'near the clubhouse' uncomfortably close to Twin Trees Lane. I was relieved to trade that in for a model that has the truck in motion between 'these a*holes' and 'Down towards the other entrance . . .'

    I feel I should put in a word for Willisnewton. He has done invaluable work on a number of problems. My models are more pro-Zimmerman than his, but they depend heavily on his input.  

    Very handy grid (none / 0) (#63)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:14:10 AM EST
    Very handy grid, wish I'd seen it sooner.

    If Zimmerman's "truck" (said elsewhere to be a Honda Elements, which means no pickup bed) was facing west, how does he see Martin under the overhang on the front (north side) of the mailbox kiosk, unless he came up the west leg of Retreat View, turned right (south) at Twin Trees instead of left and on out the gate on his way to Target, and then goes down and turns around to lie in wait?

    unitron

    Parent

    "lie in wait " ? (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by lily on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:27:58 AM EST
    Hyperbolic nonsense.

    So in your speculation GZ is parking to conceals himself from TM view and preparing for an attack. Never mind GZ first action is to call the cops reporting suspicious activity and disclosing his position.

    Parent

    So how else... (none / 0) (#88)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:00:45 PM EST
    Perhaps "lie in wait" is an insufficiently neutral term (though I don't see how one parks on the street and conceals an entire truck or SUV from view), but how else does Zimmerman see Martin in front of the clubhouse and mailboxes and still wind up parked on the north leg of Twin Trees pointing west unless he starts out on the western leg of Retreat View and travels north and then east and then onto Twin Trees a ways and then turns around?

    If he leaves his house on the southwest corner of the neighborhood heading east and then comes north up Twin Trees until turning west, he'd have had to have had X-Ray vision to see through the backs of the clubhouse and mailbox kiosk to see Martin in the front.

    Parent

    Eastern Exposure (none / 0) (#148)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 05:46:28 PM EST
    The mailbox kiosk is open to the east. Its interior wouldn't be visible from Retreat View Circle west of Twin Trees Lane. It would be visible to someone facing west on Twin Trees Lane.

    Parent
    That's the trouble with gated communities... (none / 0) (#163)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:24:15 PM EST
    ...the amateur pressarazzi can't get in and take pictures of everything in sight.

    And the real press are worthless on this story.

    If its front is turned 90 degrees from the clubhouse front, then if Martin were already under there out of the rain, and Zimmerman came up Retreat View on his way to Target, he shouldn't have seen him.

    If he saw Martin before he got to the kiosk, then Martin didn't spend any kind of time there at all, if Zimmerman called soon after first seeing Martin.

    The more I learn, the less sense this all makes.

    unitron

    Parent

    The Mail Kiosk (none / 0) (#209)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 12:38:01 AM EST
    The north wall of the kiosk can be seen well in a photo on this NY Times page. It's on the left and down a little from the top, under the audios.

    The Washington Post has a simulation that shows the eastern opening of the kiosk.

    This photo (h/t willisnewton) is distant with a slim tree in the way, but you can see the eastern opening of the kiosk and what look like two supporting pillars.

    Btw the covering of the kiosk is often called an 'awning', but to me it looks like a proper roof.

    Parent

    By Any Name (none / 0) (#83)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:42:09 AM EST
    Zimmerman called his vehicle a 'truck' on the police call. In the bond hearing I think everyone called it a 'car'. I use both words. Both are shorter than 'vehicle'.

    Parent
    the truck is not exact (none / 0) (#68)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:41:27 AM EST
    It's close enough to the house on the left with the red car in the driveway. The crime scene tech took several shots with this view of two trucks.  (Long view here.) The cop at the scene was looking at this truck near the red car.

    I'm not using charts that measure feet to determine how many steps a person could walk in so many many seconds. I'm interested in where people were in relation to the houses with witnesses and the location of the body and how they got there.

    The time periods are too short to in my view to make the number of feet between point a and b relevant, since everyone walks at a different pace, has a different stride and it could depend on whether one was walking or running.  Also, notice the elevation.

    So long as his truck was somewhere in this vicinity, on the other side of the cut-through and is facing the right direction, I'm satisfied with it.

     Here's a blow-up of the second truck from the CST batch.

    Parent

    Neither of those (none / 0) (#122)
    by DizzyMissL on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:23:49 PM EST
    trucks is a Honda Element.

    Parent
    Are you answering me? (none / 0) (#161)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:12:49 PM EST
    Or do you have other information indicating that Zimmerman drove a Honda Element?

    Someone on LL2 said a Bing photo showed a white one parked in Zimmerman's driveway, but I can't find that picture.

    ( I know Google picture results had gotten worse, but Bing returns totally unrelated stuff)

    unitron

    Parent

    Why not use the actual (none / 0) (#76)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:20:21 AM EST
    plat from the assessor's office since the houses and lots are of different sizes?

    Parent
    My pet theory (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Payaso on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:57:31 AM EST
    My pet theory is that GZ crossed the T intersection and walked to Retreat View Circle and stood there for a while waiting for the police and watching to see if TM went out the rear entrance of the complex.  From that position he could also see his truck and/or if TM went back that direction.  After waiting a few minutes he gave up and began walking back to his truck.  That's when TM approached him from the left as he was re-crossing the T intersection.

    That is just speculation  - GZ told the police in detail what his version of events was.  Eventually we'll find out exactly what he said.  Then we can decide if his story is credible or not.

    that sounds very possible to me (none / 0) (#50)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:21:17 AM EST
    Yes I agree. (none / 0) (#71)
    by Doug1111 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:55:10 AM EST
    I said something similar below before seeing this.

    During the time Zimmerman was standing there at the juncture of the east west sidewalk and RVC road, I think Trayvon was in hiding in one of the break through's between RVC and the back sidewalk south of the T.  Otherwise he'd have had plenty of time during the period when DeeDee says Trayvon told her Zimmerman was out of sight, to have gotten to and entered his dad's place without GZ knowing which one it was.

    As well DeeDee says TM said he was right by his dad's place and that a couple of minutes passed before GZ got close and there was the at first verbal confrontation.

    Parent

    Why is there reference to a "fight" ? (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Juan on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:55:33 PM EST
     I've seen no evidence that indicates an actual "fight" took place. No physical evidence or marks on George Zimmerman's hands or on Trayvon Martin indicating he had been punched. The evidence of an assault on GZ at the hands of TM is strong. Struggling to free oneself from a brutal attack & screaming for help is not "fighting".
    As far as the route taken by GZ, I rely on what the senior Mr. Zimmerman has said. I think after losing sight of TM, GZ continued to walk east past the "T". Upon reaching Retreat View Circle he rounded the corner to obtain an address. He then attempted to return to his vehicle to await the arrival of the SPD. Heading west he was confronted by TM from the south at or near the "T". Words were exchanged & an assault occurred that carried both towards the south where the altercation was heard & witnessed by residents. Items found at the scene & witness statements indicate that confrontation started there & ended 45' or so south of the "T".


    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:47:20 PM EST
    No indications on Zimmerman's hands that he did a thing to defend himself for over 60 seconds prior to drawing his gun and firing it.

    They look like he just got a manicure.

    If Martin had his wrists pinned all of that time, where did Zimmerman's injuries come from?

    unitron

    Parent

    If his nose was hit, you must aquit (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Cylinder on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:13:46 PM EST
    Good try.

    The problem with your theory is that there are eyewitnesses and exited utterances that give stong evidence that Zimmerman tried 2 non-lethal means of resistence before choosing to fire - screaming for help and struggling to free himself.

    Parent

    It's not a theory... (none / 0) (#146)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 05:37:09 PM EST
    It's not a theory, it's a question.

    Why would he go over a minute without trying to defend himself?

    unitron

    Parent

    Ever been hit in the nose? (5.00 / 1) (#162)
    by Rojas on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:18:43 PM EST
    Tears lots and lots of tears. It's involuntary. When you're blind you try to stay back or you try to tackle and hold. Don't have many options when you are blind.
    Assuming one of the punches caught Z in the nose but did not deck him I can see this taking some time and covering some ground.

    Parent
    trading blows like a B-movie brawl... (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by CuriousInAz on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:35:58 PM EST
    ...is not always how things go down.

    The current evidence points to Zimmerman acting in a defensive manner in an effort to buy time waiting for help that never came....

    Parent

    If he was straddled (none / 0) (#164)
    by lousy1 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:24:51 PM EST
    unless was proficient with his legs and abs he would be in a totally defensive position. The best he could do is try to parry punches. I doubt that blocking punches is easy in the near dark

    Parent
    Juan that was very well put (none / 0) (#193)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:19:55 PM EST
    thanks for posting your comment.

    Parent
    The standard isn't (5.00 / 1) (#261)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 12:26:59 PM EST
    whether Zimmerman had already sustained a concussion or coma, when it would be rather hard to shoot Trayvon, it's whether he reasonable feared he might well suffer a concussion if he didn't shoot Trayvon.

    That standard is I believe clearly met.

    Also Zimmerman only need have done everything he could to flee or otherwise end the fight if he was the initial physical aggressor.  There's no good evidence he was as the prosecutor's lead investigator has said.  There's also a good bit of circumstantial evidence that he wasn't.  Trayvon suffered no physical injuries from Zimmerman, whereas Zimmerman suffered a lot from Trayvon.  Trayvon was considerably taller and more fit; Zimmerman looks rather wimpy.  Trayvon had reason to "dissed" and therefore mad, at being racially profiled, suspected and followed,  as plenty in the anti-Zimmerman camp are here on this blog, vicariously.  Zimmerman knew the police were coming, Trayvon didn't. Zimmerman would have been taught in his required pistol use class to get his permit that starting a physical fight when armed is a very bad idea.  

    [new] toxicology (none / 0) (#264)
    by Clara Bow Again on Wed May 30, 2012 at 10:19:21 AM PST
    It is interesting that G.Zimmerman decided to have his family doctor examine him to note the extent of his injuries.
    Good lord, as opposed to what? Him deciding to use YOUR family doc?

    dumb non-lawyer question (3.00 / 2) (#1)
    by desmoinesdem on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:10:39 AM EST
    Why does any of this matter? On a different thread, Jeralyn, you wrote:

    Whether he might have said something that would have caused TM not to punch him in the nose has zero relevance to the legal issues. He doesn't have a duty to try and prevent Trayvon's punch. Even if his actions somehow provoked Martin into punching him, his only duty would be to respond with less than lethal force, if possible.

    The issue is whether Zimmerman, reasonably feared imminent serious bodily injury after Trayon attacked him. The test is whether a reasonable person in GZ's situation, having been punched and/or beaten by Trayvon, would have feared serious bodily injury.

    If Zimmerman did not provoke Martin's use of force, then he was justified in using lethal force in response without any duty to consider or use less force.

    In light of those facts, of what legal relevance is the specific route each person took that night? Are you saying all these details about the path through the neighborhood might shed light on whether Zimmerman did or did not provoke the encounter, in which case he may or may not have been justified in using lethal force?

    First, I said at the top (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:44:49 AM EST
    that we've been discussing the law all weekend and a lot of people here want to discuss the facts, including timelines and possible routes.

    Second, I think where Zimmerman was and where Trayvon was when they first encountered each other could substantiate Zimmerman's version of events leading up to the shooting, add credibility to his self-defense claim,  and make it very unlikely he did anything to provoke TM, which would defeat the state's attempt to cast him as an aggressor. If he's not the aggressor, he had no duty to use some means short of lethal force in response to Trayvon's attack, even if one was available.

    It also would further diminish the state's claim for second degree murder that he killed Trayvon with a depraved mind, out of ill-will, hatred or malice.

    GZ  says he was walking back to his car when Trayvon appeared out of nowhere behind him from the left. As I detailed here, this would match up with statements by Witnesses 11 and 20, 12 and 13 and 6, that they first heard noises, but not fighting, at the top of the T which moved down to the W-6's backyard, by which time it had become physical and someone was crying out for help.

    It would also refute the suggestion that GZ continued to follow Trayvon after the dispatcher told him it wasn't necessary or that he followed Trayvon down the T and initiated the encounter with him, and other such suggestions in the state's affidavit

    Knowing what route Trayvon took, and whether he  never left the top of the T, or whether he made his way back up the T instead of going home, could also substantiate Zimmerman's version that Trayvon surprised him out of nowhere. It makes  his assertion more logical -- that he did nothing to provoke Trayvon's attack on him, he was simply walking back to his car to wait for the police.

    It would also stengthen his credibility as a witness if  his statements to police as to his location are supported by  other evidence.

    If Zimmerman's account of where he was and where Trayvon was when they first encountered each other matches the description of other witnesses who were there, and is not refuted by credible other evidence, I think his defense is stronger.

    At a pretrial hearing the burden is on GZ by a preponderance of the evidence. If his version of where he was is contradicted by credible other evidence, he won't succeed on SYG, because he won't have met his burden.

    So it goes to initiation of the verbal encounter, which in turns impacts his version of the physical encounter, which in turn impacts whether he  provoked Martin's use of force against him, which impacts whether he was aggressor with a duty to use lesser force if possible when responding to Trayvon's attack.

    Each side will be telling a story. Each side has to accept the facts beyond change and build its story from there. Facts that lend credence to one's story can greatly affect the outcome on the critical issues.

    Parent

    thanks for clarifying (none / 0) (#8)
    by desmoinesdem on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:13:28 AM EST
    I thought Stand Your Ground laws specifically got rid of the "duty to retreat" language (the proposal was so advertised by its supporters in Iowa). I didn't realize that Zimmerman might still be subject to a duty to use lesser force if it can be shown that he provoked the encounter with Martin.

    I could never be on a jury in a case like this. Perhaps the evidence isn't there to convict Zimmerman of a crime, but no matter where either of them were walking, I find it impossible to view this shooting as justifiable homicide.


    Parent

    GZ Conflicting Statements (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:27:07 PM EST
    In using GZ's statements to establish a timeline and  fact pattern regarding locations, it is important to note that the prosecution is stating directly that GZ's 5 different statements regarding the incident are not always consistent with each other or the facts on the scene.

    We have not received the statements wherein GZ contradicts himself from what I understand, so we are getting the best and most coherent story from GZ's perspective and using that to fashion the timeline.

    No issue doing that but you have to keep in mind that you are speculating with perhaps the prosecution's best counter arguments unavailable.

    Parent

    Some inconsistencies (none / 0) (#244)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 10:18:22 AM EST
     
    it is important to note that the prosecution is stating directly that GZ's 5 different statements regarding the incident are not always consistent with each other or the facts on the scene.

    I believe what the lead investigator said on the witness stand at the bail bond hearing was that there were "some inconsistencies".

    The Sanford police, who are the ones that gathered the great bulk of the states evidence and all of Zimmerman's statements didn't think there were major inconsistencies that amounted to enough to charge him.

    In my opinion as soon as the special prosecutor was appointed by the governor there was a decision on both their parts that she was gonna find a way to charge Zimmerman with something for political / black race riot prevention reasons.  I'd guess the governor said something to the special prosecutor like "find something if you possibly can, and come back to me before you say you can't.  We don't have to convict him but we do have to try him."  Of course that's obviously speculation on my part but consider the political race bating atmosphere at the time. Alan Dershowitz has said similar things.  

    So yeah of course they're gonna say there are inconsistencies.  You tell the same story five different times, separated in time and there will almost always be at least slight inconsistencies. You remember things slightly differently.  You fill in the blanks and connect the dots slightly differently.

    It looks like some purported GZ inconsistencies are about all the state has.  That and very shaky and I don't think very credible testimony from DeeDee, at least starting at the point where she says Trayvon told her he was right by his dad's place in the community.  

    I think they're gonna try to argue that GZ was no longer in danger of serious bodily harm when he shot Trayvon since he'd said at least once that he'd managed to get his head off the cement sidewalk. (His father said he was trying to do that.) But he could reasonably fear that Trayvon would manage to get it back over the concrete.  

    I also think they'll try to cast doubt over Zimmerman's apparently having said that Trayvon saw his gun and maybe that he was going for it, or feared that he's seen it.  (His father said it became visible in the struggle, presumably becaus e that's what GZ told him.)  We only have what the father said on that, to my knowledge.  

    Parent

    I think JM (2.00 / 0) (#188)
    by lousy1 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:46:21 PM EST
    has cleared up this point but feel free to read all the comments in this thread.

    You can probably understand there is a difference between following some one and attempting to locate them.

    Maybe, ... (none / 0) (#196)
    by Yman on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:29:13 PM EST
    ... but Zimmerman followed Martin.  You may remember his exchange with the dispatcher when he was specifically asked:

    Dispatcher:  "Are you following him"

    Zimmerman:  "Yeah"

    Dispatcher:  "O.K.  We don't need you to do that."

    Parent

    Zimmerman was merely (5.00 / 1) (#211)
    by Redbrow on Wed May 30, 2012 at 01:33:30 AM EST
    keeping an eye on the suspect as previously requested two times by the dispatcher. Then, when the dispatcher suggests he no longer need follow, Zimmerman said "OK".(which you conveniently left out.)
    He could not have been more cooperative, even though he was under no legal obligation to do so. He was just going the extra mile to assist the police and serve his community.

    911 dispatcher:

    Let me know if he does anything, OK?

    Zimmerman:

    OK.

    911 dispatcher:

    We've got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.

    Zimmerman:

    OK.

    The prosecution admitted under oath that they have no evidence that Zimmerman continued to follow or confront after that.

    Parent

    I'm pretty sure that's... (none / 0) (#227)
    by unitron on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:57:25 AM EST
    I'm pretty sure that's actually "We've got him on the way", not "wire", said in response to Zimmerman wanting to know if they'd actually dispatched an officer to that location.

    Parent
    So Zimmerman wasn't following ... (none / 0) (#232)
    by Yman on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:56:32 AM EST
    ... Martin.  He just left his vehicle and "observed" him by moving in the same direction as Martin, then answered "Yeah", in response to the question - "Are you following him?"

    Heh.

    Word games are fun, huh?

    Parent

    Something to get shot down over :-) (none / 0) (#2)
    by DebFrmHell on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:55:38 AM EST
    I have listened to the unredacted tape at least 30 times.

    I think that GZ did actually return to his truck and get in and resettled.  I don't think that he left his truck again until shortly before he disconnected from dispatch.  (3:36)

    At 2:33 I hear that door being opened.

    At 2:39 He states he ran.  And the wind noise stops shortly afterwards.

    At 2:53 It sounds like the glove compartment is being opened.

    At 3:06 there are the clicking noises that sound very much like he is shifting gears, perhaps making the turn around from facing south to facing north. (A 3 point turn?)

    At 3:10 he gives a very distracted answer to an easy question as far as directons to his vehicle.

    At 3:23 it sounds like the door is being opened again but there is no binging this time because the keys are not in the ignition?

    At 3:36 The part where he didn't want to say his address out loud.  He is outside of the truck again.

    That gives him approx 2 minutes to walk to RVC and turn back toward not only his truck but the T intersecton as well.

    Sorry.  It is just a theory but those are just the sounds that I hear.  

    me->  o_O  

    I think that Possiblity 1 is the  best.  If TM had gone down the sidewalk toward the T intersection he could turn south there or he could go to RVC and go either right or left to the front or rear entrance.  GZ clearly states that he is going toward the back entrance.

    These are the times when I wish there was an EDIT button.  Kind of nervous to hit POST!

    Not sure about the rest but about the wind noise.. (none / 0) (#5)
    by redwolf on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:33:55 AM EST
    When you talk on a phone outside you natural orientate your body to shield the speaker and the receiver against the wind.  When you're running you can't do that.  Loosing the wind nose doesn't speak to being in the car at all.

    Parent
    labyrinth (none / 0) (#3)
    by Clara Bow Again on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:43:29 AM EST
    It was a dark & rainy night. It is very possible Trayvon Martin, a visitor, was disoriented regarding the way home, in this gated community of townhomes that all look alike.  Even George Zimmerman, who lived there for years seemed dazed & confused about where he was, unable to give the dispatcher a proper location of his whereabouts.

    Trayvon Martin's instinct was to run away from G. Zimmerman & it is possible he ran to hide from him, therefore, he did not go down the walk towards Ms. Green's house. Instead Trayvon found the first place he could to hide - he may have waited a bit & then decided it was all clear - only to encounter Zimmerman.

    Trayvon Martin was probably scared out of his mind & rightly so, because he was face to face w/ a person that would end up killing him. The idea that it was T. Martin that punched G. Zimmerman & slammed his head against the cement is pure speculation. Read page 182 of the discovery & the emt report on G.Zimmerman 30 minutes after the shooting. It is interesting to read about the extent of his injuries (minor) & chilling to read how calm he was, vitals, etc.

    I'd like to buy your novel when it comes out. (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by redwolf on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:36:26 AM EST
    The part when the head wound fairy strikes Zimmerman with her wand and magically creates those head injuries so he can get away from murder was quite inspired.

    Parent
    you're writing the same novel, bud (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Dadler on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:40:49 AM EST
    your comment is as empty as your objectivity.  of course, the ONLY way GZ could have gotten those injuries is in the scenario you have already decided MUST be the way it went down.  That's it then, let's all go home, Karnac has spoken.  For heaven's sake, there was a struggle, obviously, an armed guy was tangling with an unarmed kid who had done absolutely nothing to warrant attention from an armed fantasycop.  That scenario isn't as rosy to your clairvoyance.  

    Also, remember this, when GZ apologized to the Martins, strangely he added "I did not know he was not armed."  So, based on nothing more than how he looked, George Zimmerman assumed Trayvon Martin was armed.  That is a dangerous assumption that proved deadly.  Sorry, I've lived in the actual inner-city.  Had a kid shot to death outside my bedroom window.  Had break-ins all around us, real violent crime all the time, hookers turning tricks in cars parked at our curb, police helicopters circling the sky ALL NIGHT in the summer...and I never assumed anyone walking down the street was armed.  Because, for all that crime, 95 percent of the people were absolutely fine.  And GZ was facing nothing but property crime.  Infuriating but nothing to kill for. Ever.

    We're all living on a lot of Swiss cheese here, myself included, and we might as well admit it. So I do.  I am only putting things together as I see them, and as they make sense to me.  Just like you do. Since we come from different places, our paradigms are different.  This is what makes a jury such a marvel and a disaster at the same time. But it's the best we got.

    Parent

    Lots of speculation, there (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by jbindc on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:21:36 PM EST
    For heaven's sake, there was a struggle, obviously, an armed guy was tangling with an unarmed kid who had done absolutely nothing to warrant attention from an armed fantasycop

    We don't know that.

    Also, remember this, when GZ apologized to the Martins, strangely he added "I did not know he was not armed."  So, based on nothing more than how he looked, George Zimmerman assumed Trayvon Martin was armed.

    How do you know?

    And GZ was facing nothing but property crime.  Infuriating but nothing to kill for.

    Except getting his head bashed in.

    Parent

    When someone enters (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by DizzyMissL on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:30:58 PM EST
    your home to do an "infuriating" "property crime", how do you know that is all they are planning on doing?

    Parent
    Castle doctrine. (none / 0) (#248)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 10:35:54 AM EST
    In many states including Florida, there is the "castle" doctrine under which you are permitted to shoot someone who is invading your home (without a reasonable belief that you've given permission for a visit).

    Parent
    Faulty reasoning. (5.00 / 1) (#247)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 10:33:05 AM EST
     
    Also, remember this, when GZ apologized to the Martins, strangely he added "I did not know he was not armed."  So, based on nothing more than how he looked, George Zimmerman assumed Trayvon Martin was armed.  

    The second sentence does not logically follow from the first.  GZ didn't say he assumed he was armed, just that he didn't know one way or the other.  

     

    And GZ was facing nothing but property crime.  Infuriating but nothing to kill for. Ever.

    Absolutely untrue.  The evidence is strong in corroborating GZ's story that he was getting badly beaten up and strong that he could reasonably fear that he faced the real risk of great bodily harm or even death from internal brain damage due to Trayvon bashing his head against concrete.  

    Parent

    Lost And Frightened (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:39:49 AM EST
    It is very possible Trayvon Martin, a visitor, was disoriented regarding the way home, in this gated community of townhomes that all look alike.

    The buildings are easily distinguishable by location. Home was the last one on the left.

    Dee Dee, who looks to be the prosecution's star witness, didn't say that Martin ever told her he was lost. He said he was 'right by his father's house.'

    Trayvon Martin was probably scared out of his mind

    If he was that scared why didn't he call the police? Was he more afraid of them? Is there evidence for that?

    Parent

    It's plausible that TM was afraid... (none / 0) (#12)
    by stevenanimator on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:23:40 AM EST
    If he was that scared why didn't he call the police? Was he more afraid of them? Is there evidence for that?

    Based on the gf's account and how much of it corroborates with GZ's 911 call.  His actions prior to the encounter demonstrate that he was aware of GZ watching/following him and tried to get away or lose GZ, at least up to a point.  It's impossible to know the level of fear TM felt that night, but it certainly wouldn't have remained static all the way through leading up to his death.  It doesn't take much of a stretch of ones mind to imagine what it might feel like to have somebody watching/following you in their vehicle while you are walking home alone at night.  Would we be dialing 911 the moment we sensed such a fear that was within moments from us, knowing how the police wouldn't get there that quickly or that even talking under our breath might give our location away to the stalker?

    Parent

    The Frightened Child (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:11:03 AM EST
    His actions prior to the encounter demonstrate that he was aware of GZ watching/following him and tried to get away or lose GZ, at least up to a point.

    Martin could have gotten a lot further away.

    Would we be dialing 911 the moment we sensed such a fear

    Martin had at least five minutes, and could have had more if he had chosen to keep moving away from Zimmerman.


    the police wouldn't get there that quickly

    If the police are on the way, you only have to survive until they get there. What's the advantage of not calling?

    Why not call his father, and warn him about the creepy guy roaming the neighborhood, before he brings his girlfriend home into the dangerous situation?  

    even talking under our breath might give our location away to the stalker?

    Martin could have put plenty of distance between himself and Zimmerman if had chosen to do so.

    A frightened child reaches out to adults, to advise and protect him. I don't know if Martin was the aggressor, but he was not a frightened child.

    Zimmerman called police. Martin took care of business himself. Who was the vigilante?

    Parent

    Another argument (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Cylinder on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:36:26 AM EST
    Another argument against the frightened child scenario is Martin's reaction when help arrived in the form of W6. After having mounted a fairly brutal attack against no effective defense and having gained a position of signifigant dominance, Martin chose to continue the assault with adult intervention a few feet away.

    Parent
    great point.... (5.00 / 1) (#95)
    by CuriousInAz on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:40:52 PM EST
    If TM was the one crying for help while he was in an apparant position of dominance,  why did he not welcome the sight of W6?

    Parent
    Yeah and remember (none / 0) (#253)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 11:16:31 AM EST
    Trayvon's dad when the police first played 911 tapes of the screaming for help said (against interest) that that wasn't the voice of his son.

    Yeah he later changed his story after he'd had ample time to talk with Crump.  There are obvious reasons why Crump would want him to and for him to want to.

    Parent

    Amazing ... (3.00 / 2) (#158)
    by Yman on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:58:52 PM EST
    ... how some people are able to project themselves into the mind of a teenage boy they've never met.

    Parent
    Juries do that all the time, (3.50 / 2) (#251)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 10:59:54 AM EST
    and are asked by both prosecutors and defense attorneys to do so all the time, to the best of their abilities, from the evidence and sometimes the person's statements.

    Parent
    The Not Girlfriend (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:38:42 AM EST
    even talking under our breath might give our location away to the stalker?

    Sorry, I forgot the obvious. If that was a concern, why was Martin allegedly talking to Dee Dee the whole time?

    Dee Dee hasn't said Martin ever told her he was hiding.

    Btw, in her interview with de la Rionda, Dee Dee denied being Martin's 'girlfriend'. She said they were just 'getting there'.

    Parent

    Which also hurts her credibility. (5.00 / 1) (#250)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 10:58:42 AM EST
    She said she'd known him since kindergarten.

    How often do girls know someone from when they were 5 until 17, and then start to be "getting there" gf and bf wise.  Just doesn't happen.  Rare as hens teeth anyway.  She's just avoiding completely contradicting Crump's / Julison Communications bs narrative about that.

    Parent

    DeeDee corroborating with GZ's police call. (3.50 / 2) (#249)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 10:53:50 AM EST
    By the time DeeDee was surfaced by Crump, the 911 calls were all available and Crump no doubt listened to GZ's police call many times, and probably had DeeDee listen to it as well, or in any even probably coached her partly on the basis of it.

     

    It doesn't take much of a stretch of ones mind to imagine what it might feel like to have somebody watching/following you in their vehicle while you are walking home alone at night.

    I don't think Trayvon was ever scared of GZ or if he was stopped being so well before as I believe Trayvon assaulted GZ after verbally confronting him along the lines of "what are you following me for", which later is more or less what both DeeDee and Zimmerman said started their interaction.  

    I believe that Trayvon had by then long since believed that GZ had racially profiled him, suspected him, and was trying to keep him in sight for that reason, felt "dissed" and was for that reason pissed off.  I think once he realized that GZ was a good lot shorter than him and kinda wimpy looking TM decided to hide and ambush Zimmerman.  I think that's why he began speaking in a low voice, which DeeDee tryed to play off as showing he was scarred.

    I think the scarred thing was largely or entirely a Crump invention to go along with his angelic little boy just getting skittles and iced tea narrative.  

    I mean Zimmerman didn't fit the profile of a mugger at all. He wasn't dressed the part in his bright orange sweater jacket, plus was driving a SUV.  Plus Trayvon is hardly a likely good mugging target. How much money is he likely to have in his pocket and how valuable a watch if any? Trayvon was not a pretty girl.  I think he'd just instinctually know both those things.

    No I don't think Trayvon was scarred.  I think he was pissed.  I also think in the around 2 minutes between when DeeDee said TM was just by his dad's house and when the confrontation began, that TM had decided to hide nearer the T and ambush GZ, and that he told DeeDee that.

    Parent

    I Didn't Say It Wasn't. (none / 0) (#15)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:46:56 AM EST
    if I thought I was being followed (4.00 / 1) (#7)
    by desmoinesdem on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:06:48 AM EST
    I'd be scared to lead the possible follower to my home or to the home where I was staying, even if I wasn't disoriented.

    Parent
    You would? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by lousy1 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 05:57:15 AM EST
    My experience is that most frightened people seek friendly and secure shelter.

     Additionally, a rational person would discount the odds of a mugger also being a home invader.

    Then again how did TM know that GZ was not an undercover cop? I think he suspected he was security.

    Its pretty easy to note the differences. In particular an attacker/ mugger attempts to be covert until the moment of the strike,

    Parent

    Re: frightened versus rational (none / 0) (#36)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:41:04 AM EST
    "My experience is that most frightened people seek friendly and secure shelter.

     Additionally, a rational person would discount the odds of a mugger also being a home invader."

    I'm not sure there are that many frightened rational people in the world.

    If Martin decided Zimmerman was security or an undercover officer, did he run just to lure him into a muggable position?

    Wouldn't he realise that either of those possibilities means the other person would have a gun?

    Or perhaps I've misread your post entirely.

    unitron

    Parent

    p.182 of the discovery & the emt report (none / 0) (#10)
    by WentAway on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:39:59 AM EST
    Can you please share the link?  I have this http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf  but it's not what your referring to (I guess).  Thanks..

    Jeralyn, Thank you for sharing your legal knowledge, and for all the time and effort you put in to making this an outstanding site.    

    Parent

    Thanks, Jeralyn, for creating this thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by stevenanimator on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:59:59 AM EST
    I would like to know why you don't see any relevance to whether GZ identified himself or explained to TM why he was watching/following him at night?  And would you apply that to all situations where someone alone at night is being followed and confronts their stalker?  For example, if a woman was walking alone at night and a stranger was watching her in his car, following her and then gets out of his vehicle, could she consider such behavior as reasonably a threat?  And if such a stranger happens to be a neighborhood watchmen, but doesn't answer her, could that in any way reasonably raise the level of danger she might feel?  If such person instead took a step forward towards her, would she not be able to use lethal force as self defense?  

    Curious standard (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Cylinder on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:27:39 AM EST
    So, in the system you describe, one can launch an attack for not answering questions, stepping in the wrong direction, but not in the face of a violent assault?

    Parent
    I do find it interesting.... (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by CuriousInAz on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:41:12 PM EST
    ....that many that feel Florida's self defense statutes are "too loose" will in turn argue that TM was entitled to initiate physical violence with little to no real provacation.

    Parent
    Or, they think ... (5.00 / 0) (#113)
    by Yman on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:31:26 PM EST
    ... that Florida's self-defense law is "too loose" and that, while a fist fight may or may not have been justifiable, it doesn't warrant the death penalty.

    Parent
    I very much doubt (3.50 / 2) (#255)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 11:26:21 AM EST
    that Zimmerman wanted Trayvon to die.

    I believe the evidence backs up his story that he wanted Trayvon to not be able to keep bashing his head against the concrete, which can cause seriously bodily harm in the form of a concussion, a coma, or even death from internal brain damage.  

    If Trayvon had stopped beating Zimmerman after he'd won by pinning him to the ground on his back, without Zimmerman having done any damage to him at all, he'd either be alive, or Zimmerman would rightly be facing the 2nd degree murder charge and trial he's unrightly facing now given the evidence.

    In most states Zimmerman would be able to shoot under the circumstances of his story.  In many he's have to have tried to flee first, but he couldn't flee in this case.  In some he's have to assert an affirmative defense of self defense, meaning he'd have to show the jury that by a preponderance of the evidence he reasonably feared great bodily harm or death.  In Florida the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't.  That's not gonna happen here, no way no how.

    Parent

    fully explained twice (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:30:01 AM EST
    here , here and here. The pertinent laws are here.  Let's leave this thread for the facts.

    Parent
    interesting question - what if TM were female? (none / 0) (#202)
    by lawstudent on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:40:11 PM EST
    An interesting question you raise, which I'd like to briefly expand on a bit, and then I'll take a crack at speculating on routes.  

    What if GZ was following what he perceived as a suspicious female in the neighborhood?  She sees him following her and runs down a dark sidewalk behind some houses.  He goes looking for her and finds her.  He approaches her and asks "what are you doing around here?"  Terrified, she attacks him and a fight ensues.  She gains the upper-hand, pins him to the ground and starts bashing his head into the concrete.  He pulls out a gun and shoots her.  I realize the parallels are not perfect, but interesting food for thought...

    On the routes, I think we may be overthinking it.  The simplest answer is usually the correct one.  I would imagine TM ran to the T, hung a right towards his house, but thought the house was too far and if GZ turned the corner he'd see him and be led right to his house.  So he hid behind the fence in one of the backyards.  GZ probably ran to the T, looked right, saw nothing, kept walking to RVC, looked toward the back entrance, saw nothing, turned around to walk back to his car.  Somewhere in the vicinity of the T, either he spotted TM and the altercation began, or as many have concluded based on GZ's story, TM came up on GZ's left and punched him to the ground.  

    In the grand scheme of things, I don't know that the paths taken are all that relevant, but the more important question is what happened when the two reconnected after TM initiallly ran?  Did TM sneak up on GZ?  Did GZ spot TM and chase after him?  Was it a mutual discovery of each other, followed by a verbal altercation that turned physical?  Unfortunately, the answer to these questions will come only from GZ, and whatever the state is able to do with GZ's various statements that might undermine his credibility.  In other words, unless you believe GZ 100%, we'll never know for certain.

    Parent

    Address on Retreat View Circle (none / 0) (#26)
    by RickyJ on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:44:55 AM EST
    If Zimmerman was looking for an address to tell the cops where to meet him, why did he try to find one on Retreat View Circle rather than on Twin Trees where his vehicle was?  

    And I should add (none / 0) (#27)
    by RickyJ on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:52:21 AM EST
    that if Zimmerman can't explain why, it would suggest that he really wasn't interested in returning to his vehicle but wanted to continue to check the area where Martin disappeared.

    Parent
    Routes (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Oats on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:02:12 AM EST
    Retreat View follows the perimeter of the community, while Twin Trees just cuts through.

    Purely speculation here, but if George felt Trayvon was running out to the back entrance, it would have made more sense to give the perimeter road than the cut through.

    I'm pretty sure Zimmerman has said in his past 911 calls that he has to go out to a gate to let an officer in, so it wouldn't make too much sense for him to wait in the spot he was for police.

    Parent

    Going down Twin Trees makes the most sense (5.00 / 0) (#130)
    by J Upchurch on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:06:36 PM EST
    Zimmerman should have just driven down Twin Trees to the south end and got between Martin and the South Exit. If Martin tries to exit on Retreat View, then there is a wall and some hedges to deal with. Zimmerman could even pull out on Oregon and catch anybody climbing the wall.

    Zimmerman just didn't think it through when he got out of his truck.

    Parent

    Z wasn't close to a gate (none / 0) (#31)
    by RickyJ on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:11:02 AM EST
    I don't understand your claim that Z wanted to meet the cops close to a gate.  The T where he ended up was no where close to the back gate towards which he thought M was running.  In any case, the theory that Z was returning to his vehicle when the confrontation happened is pretty shaky.

    Parent
    Not shaky at all. (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by Cashmere on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:43:13 AM EST
    Look at where the confrontation took place, near the T.  

    Parent
    he had walked past (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:32:10 AM EST
    the front of TTL already. By the time he got to the T on his way to RTV, only the backs of the houses were visible.

    Parent
    My question was, (none / 0) (#60)
    by RickyJ on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:48:24 AM EST
    Why not kill two birds with one stone by returning to his car and giving the cops a TTL address?

    Parent
    However... (none / 0) (#62)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:01:03 AM EST
    However, the address the dispatcher asked for was the one in front of which Zimmerman was parked, and he only asked for that because Zimmerman is totally inept at giving directions, so much so that the dispatcher questioned if he even lived in that neighborhood.

    1211 Twin Trees is as good an address for his vehicle as any and as good an address for Martin's last whereabouts as any, since he didn't know where Martin was when he supposedly went looking for an address.

    "Towards the back entrance" covers a 90 degree arc between due east and due south from where he had parked, but he must have seen Martin run up the short sidewalk that passes the north end of 1211 Twin Trees before losing sight of him or he wouldn't have gone that way looking for him.

    Even if he ran or walked all the way over to look at the front of 2861 Retreat View, he obviously didn't do it before hanging up with the police, since he gave them no address, but that still gave him time (almost 2 minutes) to get that address, go back past the T and all the way back to his vehicle.

    Regardless of who started the struggle how or why, his story, as we've heard it so far, of what happened before that is as pitiful as his direction giving.

    unitron

    Parent

    there is no need to (none / 0) (#139)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:39:51 PM EST
    state your name at the bottom of your comment. We see it at the top. Thanks.

    Parent
    Re: sig (none / 0) (#168)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:33:06 PM EST
    Habit I got into on LL2 'cause someone else made a Wordpress account with that name years ago and then abandoned it, just like they did with eBay.

    I don't want it thought that I'm trying to pretend to be one person on some sites and someone else on others, but I shall refrain here in future.

    Parent

    In any of the released discovery is there.... (none / 0) (#104)
    by CuriousInAz on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:45:10 PM EST
    ...a diagram showing placement of evidence?

    I seem to recall it being mentioned that an item,  perhaps a flashlight,  was found much closer to the "T" than where TM's body and the balance of the items were located.

    Parent

    Pretty much. (none / 0) (#114)
    by Karl Baden on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:33:32 PM EST
    There are photos with markers. They have been linked in earlier posts here.

    Parent
    As far as I've seen (none / 0) (#121)
    by MJW on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:22:39 PM EST
    There are no photos showing the relationship between the markers, except for one of 5 (flashlight), 6 (unknown, perhaps cartridge or body), and 7 (flashlight).

    Parent
    Key Chain Flashlight (none / 0) (#117)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:54:13 PM EST
    Zimmerman had a key chain with a small flashlight attached. It was found west of the sidewalk a few feet south of the T.

    Parent
    Not that it matters particulary (none / 0) (#128)
    by MJW on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:37:00 PM EST
    but I think it was actually about 8 feet south of the top of the T.

    Parent
    It likely matters because it can be used to show.. (none / 0) (#136)
    by CuriousInAz on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:29:27 PM EST
    ...where the encounter likely began and where it moved from there.

    Like little breadcrumbs...

    Parent

    I don't think you can conclude that (none / 0) (#140)
    by MJW on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:40:02 PM EST
    based on only two evidence locations.  For all we know, after Martin had Zimmerman on the ground, he could have taken the key Zimmerman dropped and flung it away, either to hinder Zimmerman's escape, or simply to vex him.  Forty feet seems like a pretty reasonable distance of such a toss.

    Parent
    or perhaps... (5.00 / 0) (#218)
    by CuriousInAz on Wed May 30, 2012 at 03:53:38 AM EST
    a squirrel could have come down from a tree and moved it during the attack...

    I myself am going to go with the most likely possibility,  it was dropped.

    Parent

    One of 2 flashlights (none / 0) (#171)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:42:43 PM EST
    He also had a slightly larger flashlight, and I think I can hear on the call him banging it with his hand, trying to get it to work.

    Parent
    No evidence map released so far (none / 0) (#119)
    by MJW on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:18:49 PM EST
    The lack of such a map in discovery PDF was quite annoying.  There was one, since the preparation is mentioned.  I think there would also be wide-angle photos showing the markers.

    If you look on an aerial photo of the area and daylight pictures of the T-path, I believe the best evidence so far indicates that the key chain was on the edge of the west-side grass next to the sidewalk, near the middle of of the second sidewalk block from the top of the T.  The rest of the evidence was on the west side of the sidewalk, between the the two closely-spaced utility covers (which are about 10 feet apart).  I believe the black flashlight (7) was near the middle of the two covers, probably about 2 feet from the sidewalk.

    Parent

    The flashlight is 5 (none / 0) (#123)
    by MJW on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:24:14 PM EST
    not 7, as I incorrectly typed.  The cell phone is 7.

    Parent
    By "the rest of the evidence" (none / 0) (#126)
    by MJW on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:30:41 PM EST
    I really just meant the cellphone, cartridge, and  black flashlight.

    Parent
    Lost On Twin Trees Lane (none / 0) (#237)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 09:54:48 AM EST
    Maybe he didn't know he was on Twin Trees Lane.

    That would be a wonder. As Yman is fond of pointing out, the neighborhood only has three streets.

    But in all four minutes of his police call, Zimmerman never once said the name. And his reason, or excuse, for not giving the dispatcher an address was weak. They didn't need an address exactly where his truck was. A nearby one would do.

    It may be that Zimmerman was embarrassed to admit that he didn't know the name of the street he was on.

    Parent

    the non directions... (none / 0) (#254)
    by DebFrmHell on Wed May 30, 2012 at 11:17:47 AM EST
    IIRC, he told dispatch that when the squad car came into the complex they needed to turn (at the first) left.   That would mean the squad car would be turning onto RVC.

    He also said that his truck would be past the mailboxes.

    Those were some mighty craptastic directions and I think he waited for a bit on RVC and he stayed where he could keep his car in view.  

    I am not kidding myself that he didn't want to catch a glimpse of Martin in the process but I think from that vantage point he could see which place the squad car would actually show up.

    The one thing I did find odd is that he never described his vehicle to non-911, however.  I don't even recall him mentioning a brand for the truck.

    BTW, SUVs are classified as light trucks.

    Parent

    The Undescribed Truck (none / 0) (#257)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 11:44:42 AM EST
    The one thing I did find odd is that he never described his vehicle to non-911, however.  I don't even recall him mentioning a brand for the truck.

    As soon as Zimmerman mentioned the truck, the dispatcher asked him for an address.

    SUVs are classified as light trucks.

    Thank you.

    Parent
    Brandy Green and Tracy Martin (none / 0) (#33)
    by cboldt on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:28:10 AM EST
    -- Presumably, he is headed to the home of Ms. Green, his father's fiance. --

    I'm pretty sure the "fiance" label was improvidently attached by the press in the first place (not sure, but I think Crump's sidekick, Jackson, originated this; might have been Julison, the PR firm), and isn't attached anymore.  Brandy is Tracy's girlfriend.

    Tracy Martin and Alicia Stanley were married in 2005.  Stanley told the Sentinel she and Martin split up just weeks before Trayvon's death.

    George Zimmerman case and Trayvon father: Trayvon Martin's father recalls moments with his son, 'my best friend' - Orlando Sentinel, May 5, 2012

    this has already been discussed (none / 0) (#53)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:36:08 AM EST
    here. The New York Times said he and Ms. Green were dating for 2 years. So it's not clear how long Tracy Martin and Ms. Green were together, but Chad says he thought of Trayvon like a brother. Note, the NY Times article has other errors in it so that might be wrong as well.

    In any event, please keep your topics to the timeline and route here. Thanks.

    Parent

    Do the paths matter? (none / 0) (#37)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:57:12 AM EST
    I'm not saying I don't want all of the answers to the puzzle, but...

    Either Martin went and hid and ambushed Zimmerman or else he did not, and they just bumped into each other in the dark.

    (I'm not seeing circumstances that allow Zimmerman to hide in ambush for Martin)

    If Martin deliberately ambushed Zimmerman, then all you can do is wonder how even a testosterone crazed teenager thought that was a good idea, which is not the same as thinking Zimmerman exercised perfect judgement.

    But if the encounter was a surprise to both of them, I don't think how they got there matters nearly as much as what they did then, because at that point neither had broken any laws or possibly even formed any intent to do so.

    Fortunately for all of us, not being as wise or as smart as we might be is not, all by itself, illegal.

    unitron

    Question (none / 0) (#40)
    by Redeye on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:15:29 AM EST
    What motive would Trayvon have to confront George Zimmerman?  He was trying to get away from him.  Children are taught to run FROM stranger danger.  And why would GZ be screaming for help with a 9 mm in his hand?  He has help.

    Answer (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by cboldt on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:26:13 AM EST
    We don't know what motive Martin might have had, to get close enough and reveal himself to ask Zimmerman why he (Martin) was being followed.

    Speculation on my part, but Zimmerman would scream for help, while armed, because he forgot he was armed, or because he's reluctant to use deadly force.  He took a beating for a minute, so he says, before concluding he had no option but to use deadly force.

    Why would Zimmerman hold Martin at gunpoint for more than half a minute, with Martin yelling "help!"  That seems totally stupid - call the cops, hold a screamer at gunpoint, shoot the screamer, then wait for the cops to show up, then cooperate with the cops.  For all this hypothetical Zimmerman knows, half a dozen neighbors are watching him.

    Parent

    Maybe (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jbindc on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:01:54 AM EST
    What motive would Trayvon have to confront George Zimmerman?  He was trying to get away from him.  Children are taught to run FROM stranger danger.

    Because Martin was a 17 year old?  Sometimes 17 year olds have too much testosterone running through them and feel they have to prove themselves.

    And why would GZ be screaming for help with a 9 mm in his hand?  He has help.

    Because he couldn't immediately get to his gun?  Because he didn't really want to use it?

    Parent

    You assume too much (none / 0) (#43)
    by RickyJ on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:33:01 AM EST
    Zimmerman only saw Martin running for a few seconds before he disappeared.  Maybe it started to rain harder.  The fact that they met up at the T, a couple of minutes after Z lost sight of M, indicates to me that they both were looking for each other.  It is not clear when Z got the opportunity to get his gun out of his waistband.  It might have been while they were on the ground.  If Martin had won the fight and claimed he was exercising SYG, he might say that Z pulled it out while they were just yelling at each other, and threatened to kill him so he tackled Z, etc.  Self defense cases without witnesses are tough.

    Parent
    Why would Martin be looking for Zimmerman? (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by cboldt on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:51:25 AM EST
    -- The fact that they met up at the T, a couple of minutes after Z lost sight of M, indicates to me that they both were looking for each other. --

    I agree that both were outdoors for a minute to three minutes after Zimmerman lost sight of Martin.  And it stands to reason that Zimmerman would be looking to see which direction "the suspect" took after eluding Zimmerman.

    But I don't understand why Martin would be looking for Zimmerman; nor why he would settle for a meeting place (the T) that far from "home."

    -- It is not clear when Z got the opportunity to get his gun out of his waistband.  It might have been while they were on the ground. --

    That is Zimmerman's account.  My hypothetical was following the state's general theory of the case, that Martin (not Zimmerman) is the one yelling for help for half a minute or more.

    -- If Martin had won the fight and claimed he was exercising SYG, he might say that Z pulled it out while they were just yelling at each other, and threatened to kill him so he tackled Z, etc. --

    Is this a two fights scenario?  Martin wins one fight, then they are yelling, then Zimmerman pulls the gun, then Martin tackles Zimmerman?  Where, in this scenario, is Martin yelling for help for 30-40 seconds?

    -- Self defense cases without witnesses are tough. --

    Fortunately, this case has witnesses other than the survivor, albeit not to every moment of the struggle; and there is a substantial amount of forensic evidence too.

    Parent

    I would assume that Zimmerman gave a statement(s) (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by lousy1 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:37:39 AM EST
    before he saw the other witness statements.

    Self defense cases without witnesses are tough. --

     He could not be aware of the other witnesses, their observations  or even if videos had been taken during the incident.

    That can only enhance his creditability

    Parent

    We don't really know what GZ's statements were (none / 0) (#59)
    by Angel on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:46:06 AM EST
    to the police, only what has been reported that he said.  I'm not saying what has been reported is not true, only that we don't actually know his official statements.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Parent
    I believe Trayvon was pissed at being (5.00 / 1) (#258)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 11:54:43 AM EST
    "dissed".

     

    But I don't understand why Martin would be looking for Zimmerman; nor why he would settle for a meeting place (the T) that far from "home.

    It makes sense that the meeting place would be near the T if Zimmerman really was walking back to his truck from Retreat View Circle road, which he probably stayed at for a couple of minutes, the time line suggests.  It makes sense if Zimmerman had stopped following Martin as he said he would on his call, but was instead hoping to catch sight of where he was.  

    Martin might be looking for Zimmerman after realizing he was a lot shorter and kind of wimpy looking, due to feeling "dissed" and pissed off by Zimmerman's having racially profiled him, suspected him, and looking for where he was.  Martin might have been waiting in hiding near the T to ambush Zimmerman as he in fact did walk back to his truck/SUV.  He might have wanted to teach Zimmerman a lesson.  

    Plenty of the Zimmerman is guilty crowd are vicariously pissed off at Zimmerman for just the things I said Trayvon might well have been, and I think probably was.    


    Parent

    Zimmerman's voice. (5.00 / 1) (#259)
    by Doug1111 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 11:56:33 AM EST
     
    That is Zimmerman's account.  My hypothetical was following the state's general theory of the case, that Martin (not Zimmerman) is the one yelling for help for half a minute or more.

    The preponderance of the evidence is that it was Zimmerman who was screaming help repeatedly.   He was the one on the bottom.  He's the one with injuries other than the gun shot wound.  Trayvon's father when police first played him the 911 tapes of the scream said unequivocally that that wasn't the voice of his son.  He'd have obvious reasons to change his story about that after talking to Crump.  Zimmerman's family and his black friend all say it was Zimmerman's voice.  


    Parent

    Meeting Place (3.50 / 2) (#57)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:43:01 AM EST
    But I don't understand why Martin would be looking for Zimmerman;

    Possibly because he wanted to break Zimmerman's nose and strike his head on concrete.

    nor why he would settle for a meeting place (the T) that far from "home."

    I don't understand. Do you think Zimmerman would have walked  closer to Martin's home, and that Martin had some way of knowing that?

    I think Martin wanted to beat Zimmerman in a place out of public view. I don't know why he would care about it being close to his home.

    Parent

    Meet me at the Tee (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by cboldt on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:19:06 AM EST
    -- Do you think Zimmerman would have walked  closer to Martin's home, and that Martin had some way of knowing that? --

    No.  I was roundabout saying that I can't think of a good reason for Martin to close distance with Zimmerman, by asking what reason would he have.  

    The meeting took place closer to the T than to Brandy's place, and after enough time had elapsed that Martin could have gotten away and stayed gotten away - and if we believe DeeDee, after he (Martin) had been close to Brandy's place.

    Given those pieces of evidence, I don't see how the confrontation could have been at Zimmerman's initiative.

    -- I think Martin wanted to beat Zimmerman in a place out of public view. --

    Me too.  And, unfortunately, he got what he was wishing for, sort of.  Except some members of the public got part of a view of the fight, and quite a few members of the public heard it first hand.

    Parent

    What? (5.00 / 0) (#154)
    by ks on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:39:18 PM EST
    So now we have Trayvon "doubling back" and "lying in wait" and planning! to "beat Zimmerman in a place out of public view"?  Just amazing.  The entire incident from the time GZ called the non-emergency line to the time he shot TM was, depending on the source, was 6 to 8 minutes max and some of you seem to have inserted a lot of questionable speculation into an approx. 3 minute window.

    Parent
    Something was happening (5.00 / 1) (#165)
    by cboldt on Tue May 29, 2012 at 07:28:00 PM EST
    Well, there is a sufficient interval of time between Zimmerman losing sight of Martin, and then Zimmerman and Martin engaged in a scuffle (somewhere around three minutes, if I understand the timeline), and DeeDee saying that Martin reported being near Brandy's place, is evidence for the proposition that Martin doubled back.

    But, assuming that we misunderstand the meaning of "near" in context (e.g., once at the community, Martin would report being "near" Brandy's place, relative to the convenience store) Martin is doing something else for that interval of time.

    Regardless of doubling back or hanging out, out of view, the evidence points to Martin choosing the location of meeting with Zimmerman, and between the rows of building is in fact a more discrete location for performing a beat down, compared with between the buildings and a street.  I don't recall saying he "planned" a beat down, but the opportunity was created.

    Parent

    I believe (none / 0) (#190)
    by DebFrmHell on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:13:55 PM EST
    she also made a reference to the fact that TM was walking back.  And the "then a couple of minutes" went by.

    Some have interpreted that to mean he is back to walking.  Not running.

    Back walking and walking back are two different actions, IMO.

    Parent

    Walking Back Again (none / 0) (#204)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:41:26 PM EST
    It wasn't 'walking back', it was 'walking back again'.

    Some have interpreted that to mean he is back to walking. Not running.

    I think I'm the only one who suggested that, and I retracted it almost immediately. I said I thought she meant 'back home' as in 'out to the store' vs. 'back home from the store.'

    You attack the suggestion I admitted was less plausible, and ignore the one I settled on as probably correct. That's some cherry-picking.

    Back walking and walking back are two different actions, IMO.

    As I've said, I've retracted the specific suggestion. But in general, Dee Dee speaks an odd dialect. 'I don't talk that way' is not a valid objection to an interpretation of Dee Dee's statements, unless you speak her dialect.

    To interpret 'walking back again' to mean 'turned around and walked back north,' you need to specify some earlier action of Martin's, for which this action would be an 'again'.

    Parent

    I didn't... (none / 0) (#256)
    by DebFrmHell on Wed May 30, 2012 at 11:32:01 AM EST
    remember who said it or even where I read it.  It has been interpreted that way on more than one site, BTW.  And I hardly consider this to be an "attack."  I don't even consider it to be a challenge of any kind.

    If Dee Dee said he was near his fathers house, walking back again could very well mean that he is walking back to the area from whence he came which, quite probably, is north up the dog walk and towards the T intersection.

    Off to find an axe for those pesky trees...

    Parent

    Why do you think it was in his hand (none / 0) (#134)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:22:20 PM EST
    when he was screaming?

    Parent
    that comment was deleted (none / 0) (#155)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:45:20 PM EST
    no one saw a gun in GZ's hand. It's rumor-spreading.

    Parent
    Gated Community (none / 0) (#41)
    by RickyJ on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:21:31 AM EST
    Is it known how Trayvon got back inside the gated community?  Apparently Chad did not buzz him back in because he said he thought Trayvon didn't come back home because he went to the movies with a cousin.  Did the gates have security cameras?

    It is easy to get into a gated community (none / 0) (#48)
    by Payaso on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:59:48 AM EST
    Just wait for a resident to open the gate when they enter/exit.

    Parent
    Gates are for vehicles (none / 0) (#85)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:49:34 AM EST
    Apparently there are places where pedestrians can get in and out, including an "unofficial" place in the northwest corner near where Frank Taaffe lives, which is though the most likely place for Trayvon to have re-entered.

    The neighborhood is gated, but not completely walled-in.

    Parent

    according to the news (none / 0) (#205)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:47:24 PM EST
    he likely took the same shortcut everyone else took on the northwest side of the complex.

    photos

    here
    here
    here

    Parent

    According To Serino (none / 0) (#245)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 10:20:35 AM EST
    Serino's March 13 report (p. 42) says Zimmerman saw Martin -

    entering the gated community of the Reserve[sic] at Twin Lakes on foot, walking between residences from the northwest.

    Map, courtesy of the respectable Miami Herald.

    Parent

    Speculation (none / 0) (#55)
    by DizzySlip on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:38:54 AM EST
    I read these sentences:  "GZ did not have TM in sight when the dispatcher told him they didn't need him to follow TM. He responded OK. He didn't follow him after that. He didn't know where Trayvon was."

    After I read these sentences,  one word came to mind: speculation.

    All of the above is speculation.  

    that's not speculation (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:04:21 AM EST
    that's what he said on his non-emergency call. You can allege he was lying, but it's not speculation. Here's the Transcript here.

    He said TM had run towards the back entrance, he says ok when the dispatcher tells him they don't need him to follow TM, and repeats "He ran." Then he says he doesn't know where TM  is -- clearly meaning he is out of his sight. How can you follow someone if you don't know where they are? You can look for them, but you aren't following them.

    Of course our conclusions are all speculation -- I said at the beginning this is a thread for speculation. Most people here use available facts to create their theories. Comments that misrepresent known facts are deleted.

    Parent

    Re: pure speculation (none / 0) (#210)
    by DizzySlip on Wed May 30, 2012 at 12:41:25 AM EST
    I stand by what I said:  it's speculation and here's why.

    Even you get the facts wrong.  I'll pick out one point that you seem to support by simply posting the call.

    Take this part of the sentences I selected:  "GZ did not have TM in sight when the dispatcher told him they didn't need him to follow TM."

    Now go back and read the 911 transcript that you posted.  The part where Zimmerman first makes reference to not being able to see Trayvon happens after the 911 dispatcher tells him to stop following Trayvon.

    So Zimmerman may or may not have lost sight of Trayvon at the time he's talking to the 911 dispatcher and the dispatcher tells him to not follow.  There's nothing in the record of the 911 call to indicate that though.  And in fact,  if a dispatcher told you to not follow someone and you had lost sight of the person,  wouldn't you say, "It's okay. I've lost sight of them. I'm not following them anymore."??

    Facts are facts.  This case will hinge on these kinds of careful factual distinctions.  The owner of the blog-- even though an attorney-- was engaged in pure speculation and misconstruction of the facts.

    Parent

    Trayvon must have been in hiding. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Doug1111 on Tue May 29, 2012 at 10:49:53 AM EST
    What else was he doing in all the time between when Zimmerman says he lost sight of him, and ear witness heard the sounds of an argument begin.

    I think Jeralyn's possibility 3 is the most likely, or some slight variation on that.

    But more importantly, whichever of the three occurred or some variation on them it seems to me that Trayvon must have gone into hiding probably in one of the breaks between Retreat View Circle and the sidewalk running south of the T behind the houses.   If Trayvon hadn't been in hiding but had gone straight home south of the T there would have been plenty of time well before the sounds of the argument occurring for Zimmerman to have gotten to where Trayvon was.  Trayvon must have been in hiding.  Zimmerman must also have taken some time maybe looking down RVC from where it is met by the west to east sidewalk on top of the T, before heading back to his truck.  Yeah it's possible that TM came out of hiding when GZ approached where he was with GZ not being headed back to his truck, but  but that seems unlike if Trayvon really was still scared of GZ.  Why not just go back through the break to RVC and hide around the corner there, or head back to his dad's house down RVC?  


    this thread is about the timelines and routes (none / 0) (#79)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:31:44 AM EST
    off topic comments about DeeDee's credibility in general, whether her testimony would be allowed, the neighborhood watch program and civil lawsuits have been deleted. We can only accomodate 200 comments per thread and except for open threads, comments should pertain to the topic. Here the topic is timeline, routes and their impact on the case.

    Frank Taaffe's invisible car and what it tells us (none / 0) (#81)
    by willisnewton on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:33:46 AM EST
    We don't know if GZ claimed to be parked the whole time.  Frank Taaffe seems to say this, but Frank Taaffe is wrong about where the fight ended, and he is at odds with what the father Robert Zimmerman says about GZ staying on the same path, presumably the cut thru path that leads from TTL to RVC.  

    We have several hints that GZ thought T M entered the compound from the north west but no statements attributed to him directly that confirm or deny this.  

    Common sense seems to point to TM entering near the 1300 block of RVC, near where Frank Taaffe lives and having been seem by GZ on his automobile route to the main gate and hence to Target if that is where he was truly going.  

    In order for GZ to be parked by the cut thru at the START of his non emergency recorded phone call to the police operator, he would be in a position where one of the things he says to describe TM's actions would be very hard to observe, such as "walking around the area, looking at all the houses."  

    Then we have the timing of T M's passing GZ's vehicle, which is 34 seconds on the inside, and maybe ten more seconds on the outside, assuming that T M left the his position as soon as GZ finishes saying "Now he's just staring at me" and is moving towards GZ the entire time GZ and the operator says

    Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
    Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...
    Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the
    clubhouse right now?
    Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

    This is what I'll call the "head start" theory.  

    Assuming the youth is six feet tall and walking at an average of 3mph, that covers five feet per second, or 5fps.  Maybe he walked faster, but it doesn't seem like he was running until later, around the time GZ exclaims, "he's running."

    We also don't know for certain that TM was waiting out the rain by the mailbox pagoda, but DeeDee seems to confirm this in her deposition to investigator Bernie de la Ronda ( sp?)   There are those who think T M was elsewhere.  I subscribe to the mailboxes theory.  Again however, we don't know what GZ told investigators, if anything about where he parked.  Keep in mind that the first night, he was likely never asked this question as his wife had been contacted somehow and moved the car before police knew it was in the area.  

    I think he did park near the cut thru but the question remains which way was he facing, and how and when did he drive to get there.   It seems he may have driven DURING the recorded police call.  I've certainly not seen that theory disproven.  

    But trying out possibilities, one gets the following:

    If  TM walked from 34 seconds at 5fps, he ends up 170 feet from the start point.

    If TM had a "head start" he could move for 44 seconds at the outside, and end up 220 feet from his start point.  

    Only the most extreme "head start" gets TM from where the mailboxes are to where the Frank Taaffe car position is, and then just barely, leaving out the Frank Taafee "According to George" circling of the vehicle, which is a dubious move not confirmed by any recorded statement on the non emergency police call.  

    Aside:  I don't find Frank Taaffe credible.  He's wrong about where the fight took place, and his his idea of GZ walking north on the dog walk contradicts the father, who was present at the walk through and describes a route that sticks to the E-W cut thru path.  He also misrepresented himself on Nancy Grace on the evening of the "virtual perp walk" video release, defending what was visible or not regarding injuries.  Nancy Grace had to ask him point blank is he had spoken with or met GZ lately, and Taaffe looked very bad when he had to admit that he had not.  

    In my opinion he's certainly wrong twice in his local tv report - once about the location of the fight (which he places at the point where the lighted keychain flashlight was found, not where the body was discovered) and wrong about GZ taking the dog walk path north, (due to RZ's presence and different tale).  I also think he is wrong about the car's position, but this is more troubling because he says "According to George" when describing it.  

    I wonder if Frank Taaffe has friends inside the Sanford PD, and I wonder if his "According to George" is something George told him directly or it its something GZ told the cops and FT heard it from them.  Or, he could be just making things up, we just can't know.  But I think he is "zero for three" in sports terminology, and it's foolish to take anything he says at face value.  At best, he's "one-for-three" if you leave out the circling move, figure TM is a very fast walker, and takes a beeline with a head start to pass GZ's vehicle.    

    http://tinyurl.com/86qbcad

    note : I've not yet posted the screen capture of FT claiming in his local tv report that GZ was south on the dog walk and heading north, but it's there in the video.  

    HUGE DISCLAIMER:  my visual notes on flickr are not a "presentation" just my own notes at this point and a little disorganized, and represent one man's opinion and not established fact.  Only a trial will establish "facts" for a jury to deliberate.  

    Why 'invisible car'? (none / 0) (#89)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:01:18 PM EST
    It's like a punch line without a joke.

    But I think he is "zero for three" in sports terminology, and it's foolish to take anything he says at face value.

    You seem to be the only one with much interest in what Frank Taaffe says.

    Parent
    FT established west facing car (none / 0) (#100)
    by willisnewton on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:33:52 PM EST
    I'm getting used to being the lone voice in the wilderness here.  

    But in regards to FT, I'm not sure where else, if anywhere the idea of a west-facing, non-moving car has been posited.  If it's anywhere in the 183p document dump I have not seen it.  

    http://tinyurl.com/7g25oo8

    And here FT sits, pantomiming a car that I doubt was ever there in that position.  I try to give my comment subject headings memorable phrases so I can find them later.  I wouldn't read too much into it beyond that.  

    Jeralyn seems to give credence to FT's car position yet her mention of daytime photos looking towards the west can also include an east facing, other-lane position, and the shot she describes as a POV is actually taken from the start of the cut thru sidewalk by a person standing on the sidewalk.   So my opinion differs from hers and I wonder how she ever got the idea that the car was in the FT position if not by hearing FT put it forth.  

    Did I miss another mention?  Whatever GZ overtly said to investigators seems to be redacted, sealed and under dispute about further censorship, seal etc and generally out of the public knowledge.  IANAL so I may have some terms wrong here, but what he said to investigators isn't known to us.  We do have the leak to the Orlando Sentinel, which leaves out this part, and the story of RZ that also is mum on the car's placement or movement details.  

    The only hint we have at a missed redaction is the place (I forget where) in the 183p documents that seem to say TM came in from the northwest, if that is indeed a description of an entry via the 1300 block of RVC at all.  It's more of a hint than much to hang a hat on.  

    So, like the idea that TM was ever truly at the mailboxes, which is a worthy thing to consider (and I think part of nomatter's thinking?) we just don't really know yet.  

    If I were to ascribe motive or meaning to the daytime photos, I'd start wondering about the bench on the patio at 2861 RVC.  There is a shot from the POV of someone by the bench that has me curious, and a shot that seems to center on the bench itself.  But that's for another time...  

    I'm curious is there is any other mention of where GZ may have first been positioned when he called the police non emergency number.  Plenty of people think there are sounds that seem like he's putting the car in gear, and moving during the call, and DeeDee may or may not be talking about a car-to-person chase she doesn't know the details of as well.  

    Most people are making an assumption that "by the cut thru" is the FIRST place GZ's car was, not just the last.  And again, I refer to the time and distances involved to discount the FT position.  See my flickr set to get back to that stuff.

    http://tinyurl.com/bqmt2ws

    Parent

    Taaffe, Etc. (none / 0) (#110)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:57:48 PM EST
    Thanks. It didn't occur to me that Taaffe was pantomiming driving a car standing up.

    The first reconstructions I saw on blogs had the truck on the south side of Twin Trees Lane, facing west. Here's one.

    It was my working hypothesis until you convinced me the truck was in motion. I mentioned that upthread.

    Parent

    there is no evidence to support (none / 0) (#125)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:29:48 PM EST
    that the truck was in motion.

    Parent
    Evidence (none / 0) (#143)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 05:01:12 PM EST
    Is there evidence that the truck was stationary for all of the time in question?

    If not, I would say models making either assumption are on an equal footing.

    Parent

    wouldn't the evidence... (none / 0) (#160)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:59:36 PM EST
    Wouldn't the evidence either way be limited to different people's interpretations of the various noises on the recording of the call Zimmerman made?  At least until we hear from Zimmerman or get access to his various police interviews that night and the next day?

    And has anyone who might know put forward any information about what noises on that tape might be from the dispatcher's location instead of Zimmerman's end of things?

    unitron

    Parent

    The Shortcut And The Mailboxes (none / 0) (#116)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:49:03 PM EST
    The only hint we have at a missed redaction is the place (I forget where) in the 183p documents that seem to say TM came in from the northwest . . .

    It's on page 42, in Serino's March 13 report.

    So, like the idea that TM was ever truly at the mailboxes, which is a worthy thing to consider (and I think part of nomatter's thinking?)

    Did you mean to write 'never'?

    I've got the flu and my energy is low. I'm not up to long discourse or heavy thinking, so it looks like I'll be missing out on fully participating in a very interesting phase of the discussion.

    Briefly, no, I've never believed Martin was at the mailbox shelter. Zimmerman clearly implied one reason for suspicion of Martin was that he was 'walking around' in the rain, not seeking shelter.

    The early version of Dee Dee's story was vague about where Martin sheltered from the rain. Some bloggers looked at the aerial photos and speculated that the mailbox area was a likely location. I think Team Crump liked the idea and stole it.
     

    Parent

    It's not Frank Taaffe (none / 0) (#133)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:20:33 PM EST
    I relied on, but a combination of what GZ says on the call to police, the physical evidence, witness 911 calls and statements, the known timing of events, and photographs in discovery as well as a few taken by the media, such as the  Fox News picture with the cop, white truck and red car in the driveway to the left.

    I used photos of the crime scene taken the next day by an evidence tech, including ones of:  the same location as the Fox photo from the night before, with a white truck, white SUV and red car in the driveway to the left; the long view with the white truck and red car;  the back view of 1211 with the white truck and red car; the back of 1211 TTL with the white truck, white and red car;  the view with both 2861 RVC and 1211 TTL and the white truck and red car; and the front of 1211 TT Lane.  

    It happens to be close to where Taaffe said the truck  was, but that hardly means I relied on Taaffe. I relied on what I said I relied on, and noted it was consistent with what he said. It's not in the same place as Taaffe puts it.

    If TM was walking towards GZ as he said on the call, his car had to be facing the front entrance.

    Also, I came to no conclusions. I raised possibilities, after considering, among other things,  what the witnesses in 1211 said -- that the first voices they heard came from grass area NW of their screened in, closed porch, which would be to the left of the T along the cut-through and before you reach the TT Lane street. To me that suggests GZ was around the T, when he and TM encountered each other, and is support for his  assertion he was on his way back to his car. It refutes the notion he was  down the path between houses, having followed TM on his way home. It also suggests that TM came out from the back of TT Lane onto the T, behind GZ.

    Your version which is not based on a consideration of all available evidence.

    A more likely scenario, and one that fits with most of the evidence so far, is that TM came through the frequently used shortcut between houses on the west side of the complex when returning from 7-11. GZ who was on his way to Target, would have seen him if he was driving up RTV Circle to exit the complex.  By the time he reached the place to turn left and go out the front exit to Target, his suspicion had been aroused so he passed the exit turn, and then at the cut-through, turned his car around, and parked to see if he could still observe TM.

    While parked, he may have seen him at the clubhouse or mailboxes and phoned in to dispatch to report him. From his point of view, suspicion was aroused by a combination of things: There had been burglaries in the neighborhood. It was raining, TM had come through the houses and was milling around rather than going anywhere. TM was probably talking to his phone friend via his earplug, and like most people do when using a headset, using his hands to gesture as he talked or taking steps but going nowhere, which caused GZ to think he was "on drugs or something" since he couldn't see the phone. We've all seen someone acting really wierd in public only to realize when we get closer they are talking on the phone through an earpiece rather than holding the phone.

    When TM started walking towards him, according to his call, he saw his hand in his waistband. Then he saw him holding something in his hand. Which means he had taken something out of his waistband and was walking with it in his hand. It might have been the AZ iced tea can because Officer Raimondo said it was in the center pocket of his sweatshirt when he reached TM's body and lifted his shirt up.

    When TM left 7-11 the can was in a bag, but that was 40 minutes earlier. He may have put it in his pocket at some point during the walk back and then taken it out as he was walking in the direction of GZ's car.

    At this point, GZ was not following TM, he had passed him and was now parked. If TM had stopped at the awning at the clubhouse or mailboxes (assuming they had one) to wait out the rain, he might have seen GZ turn around and park and stay in the car, watching him.  TM might have recognized that this was the same car that had driven by him a few minutes earlier.  He may have felt he was being watched. But it doesn't seem like GZ was following him at this point.

    The only time it is known  that GZ followed TM was during his call to police when he got out of his car to see where TM had run to. Its only  several seconds before he says "ok" when the dispatcher tells him they don't need him to follow TM. He says "ok." He says he lost sight of TM.

    I think all supports that he was walking back to his car, along the cut-through at the top of the T, close to the screen-in porch of 1211 TTL when TM came out and asked why he was following him.

    There is no evidence GZ moved his car once parking it. Please don't refer to what "some people" heard as authority for a proposition that he moved his car or an ignition sound can be heard. Unnamed and unsourced "some people" is not welcome here. It's just spreading gossip that favors your point of view.

    Commenters' conclusions and theories based on their review of the available evidence and discovery is welcome. What you've read elsewhere as to speculations by other people is not. You also tend to use the phrase "most people think" when you have no way of knowing what most people think. You know what people you have read think, and your selection of reading sources is probably not representative of what "most people think." No one's is. Nor is "what most people think" helpful to discerning what happened from known facts and official reports.

    BTW, the photo with the bench in the back of 2861 RTV shows where W-13 and his wife W-12 were when they first heard noises and his wife then looked out the sliding glass doors but didn't see anything. They had been assembling furniture on the living room floor. His wife looked out several times, including after hearing what sounded like "help" and again didn't see anything. When they heard the shot, W-13 ran out through the garage at the front of his house, around to the back. His wife looked out and saw shadows but couldn't make anything out, until her husband got there with his flashlight and was  talking to GZ. (She recently said media reports convinced her the larger person was on top, but her earlier statements clearly say she couldn't determine anything about who was fighting.)

    Since it was W-13 who first approached GZ after the shooting (taking pictures of him and TM who was then dead), he was in the best position to describe for authorities which way TM's body was facing when he first saw him. He describes in an interview that TM was laying diagonally with his head or feet towards 1221 TTL and the other towards his house. That's likely why the crime scene tech took so many photos of 2861, from the front and back. The garage was in the front, the house number GZ would have found when he reached RTV was 2861, the windows on the side could have made the noise more prominent.  I don't think the tech was photographing the bench but the back patio doors from which they looked out and it happened to be there.

    Time and distance charts may be helpful, but they are not a substitute for the evidence in the case. Or a reason to discount the evidence. Follow the facts, then come up with a theory.

    For example, a more plausible explanation of the metal sounds on GZ's call is that he  was tapping his flashlight against the pet waste can,  rather than in his car.  At least it is one that is consistent with physical evidence found at the scene and witness statements as to the placement of the first sounds they heard.

    Also, please don't presume I relied on anything other than what I said I relied on in my post. It's misrepresenting what I wrote.

    I have not reached a conclusion, I'm still studying the facts, but some of the things you raise, like speculation by unnamed persons you've read elsewhere that GZ may have moved his car because it sounds like that to them when listening to his call are not helpful or valid pieces to the puzzle.  And you are using this site to spread those non-factual claims and convince others. You have been warned many times not to do this. It is not your site and your view that someone is guilty before they have been convicted in a court is directly contrary to the principles of this site.

    Please limit your comments to 4 in any one thread and do not write long treatises. Only the site authors get to do that. Thank you.

    Parent

    Speaking of vehicles... (none / 0) (#156)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:52:15 PM EST
    Speaking of vehicles which spent the night there, there was a small silver SUV, which could be a Honda, which was in some video and photos from that night (which I can no longer find online) and there was a photo of it still there the next day (apparently early, but I can no longer find it either).

    Unfortunately none of the views were wide-angle enough to see just where it was, other than apparently in the street, although it seems to have been pointed west.

    Anybody else remember it?

    unitron

    Parent

    Jeralyn, you write... (none / 0) (#176)
    by Gandydancer on Tue May 29, 2012 at 08:56:12 PM EST
    By the time he reached the place to turn left and go out the front exit to Target, his suspicion had been aroused so he passed the exit turn, and then at the cut-through, turned his car around, and parked to see if he could still observe TM.
    and
    If TM had stopped at the awning at the clubhouse or mailboxes (assuming they had one) to wait out the rain, he might have seen GZ turn around and park and stay in the car, watching him.

    ...but GZ didn't just "pass the exit turn" (assuming he came that way), he turned right onto TT, and if he U-turned to park at or near the west end of the "T" this screencap seems to indicate that the trees and townhouses block any view of the clubhouse proper. (That is the mailbox structure visible between the trunks?)

    Upthread, you also write:

    If TM was walking towards GZ as he said on the call, his car had to be facing the front entrance.

    ...but TM could be walking "towards" Z no matter which way Z was facing, and whether Z parked on either side of TT, so long as Z was on TT between TM and the "T". Z could have been observing TM in his mirror or over his shoulder, etc.

    Btw, I find willisnewton/jeandodge67's contributions most valuable, even if I often disagree with his final conclusions. The best test of your thinking process is often someone who disagrees with you, if he's rational, attentive, and not a screamer. Not sure why you're ruling out the auditory clues he hears on the tapes.

    Parent

    yes to the exit (none / 0) (#191)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:19:05 PM EST
    turn (I'm glad I said I was directionally challenged at the beginning). I should have said maybe he turned right at the exit instead of left, onto TT Lane and then made the u-Turn. See here. I don't think he parked as far past the cutoff as Taaffe and that picture do, so I don;t think the trees would block him. I put his car just past short of the driveway with the red car but on the right side of the road.

    I think the shortcut TM would have come in on is at the northwest of the complex and GZ would have passed him as he was walking into the neighborhood using the shortcut. The shortcut is between houses.

    I think this is a better picture of the juncture of the cut-through and TT Lane where I think he made the u-turn.

    If he made a u-turn and parked, I think he would have parked where the truck on the right is in this picture, not as far up as in your picture. Maybe the trees wouldn't block him there, but I don't know. I still think tthis is the correct placement.

    And here's the shortcut TM probably took. It goes between houses.

    Anyway, it's just a possible theory consistent with the evidence, that I find more likely than the scenario posted by the commenter I was responding to. I have no idea if that is what GZ will say happened or not.
    Thanks for the correction on the exit turn.

    Parent

    please keep theories here (none / 0) (#87)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:58:37 AM EST
    to the timeline and locations, not what you think happened after they encountered each other.

    the dirt path vs sidewalks (none / 0) (#93)
    by willisnewton on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:27:11 PM EST
    I think it's worth considering TM's path from near GZ's vehicle to where his body was found.  The shortest route may include this dirt/grass  path visible here:

    link here
    http://tinyurl.com/7rdvuph

    I think GZ was predisposed to stick to the sidewalks and roadway - it's rainy out and the grass is wet.  TM may already have had his feet wet from his walk to the 7Eleven and back.  

    If TM takes the most direct route from where he was by GZ's car to where the body was found, he's not going to be on the dog walk sidewalk  - he 's in the grass behind John's patio.  

    This can only be guesswork, but if GZ jogs onto the cut thru and stops near the T, he's going to look down the sidewalk and MISS TM who is wearing dark clothing, somewhere in the grass.  GZ has a busted flashlight in one hand, a cell phone to his ear and keys somewhere.  He's trying to give directions to the operator and he's avoiding the topic of whether he is still following the youth or not, whom he last saw running east.  So he continues east.  

    It's only later that he comes back to check out the dog walk again.  

    I think the idea that he is "returning to his vehicle" will be challenged at trial by the prosecution.  He moved away from his vehicle for 24 seconds of wind noise.  Then he took a much longer time to never get there again, or if he did, then he didn't stay.

    If he was looking for a street number, he never called one in. If he was returning to his vehicle, he took a long time to do so and never reached it.  If he was south of the T, (which he certainly was at the point he shot the unarmed teen) then he was off his route back to(wards) his vehicle.  What do we know he was doing?  We know he was outside of his car, with a loaded gun running around in the dark where he eventually lost control of the situation.

    If a laboratory rat runs to a dead end in a maze, and turns around, has he given up looking for the cheese?  

    What does "down" mean? (none / 0) (#94)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 12:35:49 PM EST
    Zimmerman doesn't say Martin is running towards the other entrance to the neighborhood, he says "Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood."

    Does this mean he saw him head east to the T and then turn south or that he saw him take off south down Twin Trees before losing sight of him?

    unitron

    If Z parked near the turn... (none / 0) (#179)
    by Gandydancer on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:13:25 PM EST
    ...he wouldn't have lost sight of TM had TM followed TT south.

    I appears to me that if Z was parked on TT he would have been able to distinguish between TM turning south on the "dog walk" and turning south on RV. More so if he'd exited his truck.

    Had he wanted to cut off TM his best shot was to drive to the rear entrance...

    Parent

    Still unclear about the call time discrepancy (none / 0) (#99)
    by amateur on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:14:59 PM EST
    Forgive me for coming late to that game but if someone wouldn't mind explaining to me the difference between the 7:09 connect time and the 7:11 call time in the police report timeline, I'd be grateful.  

    The 7:09 is the (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:36:33 PM EST
    time the call was connected. The dispatcher is typing. There is lag time of about a minute and a half for what it typed to be created as a record in the system.

    Here is the chart of the call. You can see at the top it was connected at 7:09 but the record of the call was not created until 7:11.

    Parent

    Cool thanks (none / 0) (#185)
    by amateur on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:39:11 PM EST
    That had been bugging me.

    Parent
    I think that of the three possibilities (none / 0) (#101)
    by rjarnold on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:36:18 PM EST
    the most plausible is #2. Had Trayvon taken the third path and run to RVC, I don't see why Zimmerman would have said toward the back gate. Saying something like he ran behind the houses would make more sense. Possibility #1 is supported by the fact that it seems like a more direct way to Trayvon's father's house. However, had he taken path #1 and run down Twin Trees, it seems as if Zimmerman would have driven his car a little further down and then got out of it.

    Possibility #2, where he runs to the pet waste can and then turns, is supported by the fact that it is a path to the father's house, it would be consistent with him running towards the back gate. If Trayvon was trying to get get out of Zimmerman's sight, it makes sense to do so in what was likely the most poorly lit area, which would have been behind the houses.

    The more I think about it... (none / 0) (#109)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 01:56:40 PM EST
    The more I think about it, the more it makes no sense for Zimmerman to have ever gotten out of his vehicle.

    He could have driven down to the rear entrance in seconds to see if Martin had made it that far.

    He could have come back north up Retreat View to look for him.

    He could have called other NW members to help look.

    And if wasn't afraid to go chasing after him on foot in the dark he could have stopped at the mailboxes, gotten out and said "Hi, I'm George Zimmerman.  I haven't seen you around the neighborhood before.  Did y'all just move in?  I'm with neighborhood watch and like to keep current on everybody I"m trying to look out for."

    unitron

    we seem to agree... (none / 0) (#115)
    by unitron on Tue May 29, 2012 at 02:42:21 PM EST
    We seem to agree about when he got out of the vehicle and in response to what, but are you saying you think he was in motion and had to stop to do so?

    unitron

    not at all (none / 0) (#206)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:56:15 PM EST
    He may have stopped and watched for a few minutes before calling to report Trayvon. He may have stopped to call dispatch. I think he was parked when he initiated the call but I have no idea for how long. I raised one possibility in the comment you are replying to. There are undoubtedly many others.

    Parent
    You raised?!? (none / 0) (#225)
    by unitron on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:49:24 AM EST
    My reply was to a post by willis which you apparently subsequently deleted.

    Or at least it was supposed to be in reply to his post.

    Parent

    Sources (none / 0) (#118)
    by Redbrow on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:07:20 PM EST
    Brandy's porch statement is at around 1:20 in this video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jTZ3zsZBtEM

    Dinner in Orlando:
    "That night, for example, while his father and Ms. Green were out having dinner in Orlando, Trayvon asked Chad, Ms. Green's son, if he wanted anything from the store."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&am p;pagewanted=all

    Between 2-3:
    "It's something I will never get over. I had talked to my son between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m., then 12-13 hours later I found out that he was dead."
    http://www.bnd.com/2012/05/24/2187688/tracy-martin-to-tell-youths-stop.html#storylink=cpy#storylink= cpy

    Begged for permission:
    "The only reason he got a chance to go to the store is because he begged his dad to go," he said. At the time, his father and his fiancée had gone out to dinner and to watch a basketball game, leaving Martin at the townhouse, according to Martin family spokesman Ryan Julison.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/?hpt=hp_c3

    your first comment (none / 0) (#195)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:28:05 PM EST
    above this was deleted for suggesting Trayvon was doing something illegal. No character attacks here.

    I've deleted several other comments raising the same issue.

    Timeline and routes here only please. Thank you.

    Parent

    Redwolf please (none / 0) (#197)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:30:56 PM EST
    put urls in html format because long ones skew the site and I have to delete the comment as I can't edit comments.

    There's a link button at the top of the comment box. Preview before posting.

    Same goes for everyone.

    Parent

    Sorry (none / 0) (#212)
    by Redbrow on Wed May 30, 2012 at 01:56:49 AM EST
    Sorry for posting long links. I can't edit my post to change url format.

    It was posted to support the previous comment you already deleted, although I made a point not to specify any illegal activity in that post.  

    I have always been puzzled by Brandy Green's comment claiming he was just sitting on the porch just before being shot. Isn't it possible Trayvon left some indication of having been there? Otherwise, why would she make such a statement? One of your scenarios also mentions the possibility that Trayvon made it all the way home before the confrontation.

    It is your blog and obviously you can delete as you see fit.

    Parent

    Not What She Said. (1.00 / 1) (#216)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 03:48:39 AM EST
    I have always been puzzled by Brandy Green's comment claiming he was just sitting on the porch just before being shot.

    Not what she said.


    He was on his way back home. I'm living right down here. He was sitting out on the porch. And this man killed him? Are you serious?

    Your 'just before being shot' is a serious misrepresentation. Green didn't say anything remotely like that, or anything else that would locate the 'porch' sitting in time.

    Green was clearly agreeing with the conventional narrative that Martin was killed 'on his way back home', which is not consistent with having been sitting on the patio 'just before'.

    Probably Green meant that Martin was sitting on the patio the last time she saw him alive. Such remarks are a common response to news of a death.

    The video was made the day after Trayvon Martin died.


    Parent

    Though I agree your interpretaion (none / 0) (#222)
    by MJW on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:00:54 AM EST
    of Brandy Green's comment is likely correct, people can hardly be faulted for taking her statement that "He was sitting out on the porch. And this man killed him?" to mean that Martin was sitting out on the porch, and this man killed him.  That is, after all, what it literally means.

    Parent
    Marking North (none / 0) (#120)
    by DizzyMissL on Tue May 29, 2012 at 03:20:27 PM EST
    on every map produced would make this way easier.

    a story of the maze and the cheese (none / 0) (#129)
    by willisnewton on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:05:48 PM EST
    This is what I'd put forth as my own speculation backed by the timeline, distances walked in allotted time, and what we have heard in the public domain so far.  It's foolish to think we can know any of this, but my speculation here is possible given the distances covered in the time allotted.  

    If TM was at the mailboxes when the call from GZ started, I think he moved past GZ's car in the approximate time between


    Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
    0:49
    Dispatcher: OK--you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
    Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...
    Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the--he's near the clubhouse right now?
    Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
    1:03  (7:10:37 EST)

    AND


    1:37 (7:11:11EST)
    Zimmerman: Okay. These axxholes they always get away.

    It's a time frame of 34-44 seconds, if you give TM a "head start" and put him in motion before GZ comments on it.

    Unless TM is running, that means he can only go so far.  He doesn't seem to be running yet since GZ makes a point to say he's running later.  

    How far?  Not so far that GZ could START by the cut thru.  To me, that suggests that GZ's car then follows him east on TTL.  There are noises that sound like putting the car in gear during "these axxholes always get away."

    (see my post about frank Taaffe for links to illustrations)

    When he does pass the car, there are 30 more seconds until GZ says T.M is running.  This is the time of a slow motion car to pedestrian chase.  DeeDee heard something about this later but not exactly what it was. She was not on the line w T M at the moment.   This is one of several possible times TM feels he was being followed.   Eventually unnerved, and near the corner at the cut thru path, he runs.  By now GZ's car is facing east and is also near the cut thru.  GZ parks and takes ten seconds to secure his car and belongings, including the black flashlight that probably failed on him, causing him later to use his tiny keychain flashlight instead, which was operating when found neat the T.  (see p 80 of 183)  

    During this "getting out of the car" time, TM completes his trip down TTL and enters the cut thru path.  When GZ starts running, TM has already hit the dirt path at the corner of 1211 and by a quirk of architecture is out of GZ's sight line before he actually makes the corner.  GZ says his disputed "effing punks/goons/etc" line at this point in response to losing sight of the teen, and continues to jog after with the general impression of an eastward progress on the cut thru.  In a few more seconds, he says "he ran" past tense indicating he's lost sight.  But I think he lost sight earlier, at "effing goons" while GZ is still near his east facing car.  

    link to blind spot photo illustration here
    http://tinyurl.com/cuyfz64

    apologies for how bad this photo illustration is.  

    TM meanwhile is in the dog walk, in the grass and in the dark somewhere close to John's back yard when his phone rings.  He answers it, and stays in the general area, speaking out of breath to DeeDee.  She tells him to run home but he is out of breath and says he's close enough to home (and off the roadway) and not to worry.  He doesn't know that GZ got out of his car.  

    GZ jogs to the T and looks south down the path but doesn't see TM in the grass, behind him.  His flashlight isn't working, and he bangs on it while talking to the operator.  It fails, and he eventually switches to the smaller keychain one, but not just yet.  He misses seeing TM.  

    TM may or may not see this action and comment on it to Dee Dee in a low tone of voice if so, he's aware now that GZ is out of his car.  At this same general time, GZ is reluctant to give out his full name and home address.  (what does he fear?  I hope he is asked this at trial, or told investigators what was on his mind exactly here.) TM stays in the vicinity of John's backyard and talks on the phone.   GZ moves east butTM doesn't know when or if he will turn around, since he's not going to find anything going that way.  TM knows that if he takes the sidewalk to home, he's likely to be spotted in the clear by a returning pursuer.  He decides to stay put in the shadows, in his dark hoodie.  GZ missed him the first time, why not a second?

    GZ continues east to RVC and looks up and down for the teen.  Any idea of finding a street address is something he comes up with later.  Instead, he's looking for the person who he found suspicious.  So he runs up to the bend in RVC ahead of him to the north, and looks to see if TM ran back to the west on RVC.  At that point he's already off the phone.  He thinks about his options, and decides he didn't look down the dog walk well enough, and so returns in that direction.  He's not returning to his vehicle - that's not where he told the operator he would be, nor has he described what color, make or model truck he has.  He's still looking for the teen.  If he notices a street address, he fails to call it in.  If he's decided to meet the police at the truck, he fails to inform them of that.  

    If a laboratory rat gets to a dead end and turns back, is he giving up looking for the cheese?  No, and GZ hasn't given up either.  He returns to the somewhere near the T intersection, looking for what he seeks.  

    Then somehow, they meet.  

    Dee Dee Says (none / 0) (#265)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 01:35:07 PM EST
    TM meanwhile is in the dog walk, in the grass and in the dark somewhere close to John's back yard when his phone rings.  He answers it, and stays in the general area, speaking out of breath to DeeDee.

    Dee Dee to de la Rionda. (6:43-7:26)

    Dee Dee: He was telling me that, like, he, this man was watching him, so he like started walking.

    De la Rionda: He, Trayvon, started walking?

    Dee Dee: He going start walking.

    De la Rionda: OK.

    Dee Dee: And then the phone hung up, and then I call him back again. And then, and I say "Whatcha doing?" And he say he's walking. And he say this man still following him, behind the car.

     [Martin put his hood up.]

    Dee Dee: So I say "What's going on?" And he say this man is still watching him, like in a car. So he about to run from the back.


    This was the last call drop, and Dee Dee was clear that they reconnected before Martin ran.

    TM may or may not see this action and comment on it to Dee Dee in a low tone of voice

    You mean he said it and Dee Dee didn't hear it?

    At this same general time, GZ is reluctant to give out his full name and home address.  (what does he fear?  I hope he is asked this at trial, or told investigators what was on his mind exactly here.)

    Seriously? Zimmerman thought Martin might be casing houses, and you think it's a big mystery why he wouldn't want to give him his address?

    TM knows that if he takes the sidewalk to home, he's likely to be spotted in the clear by a returning pursuer.

    Looking at a photo of the area, it finally hit me what great hiding places those partition fences would make. Marvin could have slipped from one to another, working his way southward. Ultimately he could probably make use of one to slip into BG's back door with confidence that he wasn't seen.

    He decides to stay put in the shadows, in his dark hoodie.

    And lies to Dee Dee, telling her he's walking home when he's really hiding?

    Come to think of it, Martin's 'kinda low' voice would be consistent with hiding. But it would be better to get off the phone. He could have told Dee Dee he was home and needed to do something with Chad.

    Parent

    Can we discuss Federal Charges? (none / 0) (#132)
    by J Upchurch on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:19:22 PM EST
    I was reading that the FBI is investigating whether to charge Zimmerman with a hate crime. Can we discuss this? I reviewed the law and it has some interesting implications, especially a 1001 perjury charge.

    Not here (none / 0) (#138)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:38:50 PM EST
    and it's probably not a subject I will cover unless there are developments. Right now, I'm covering the state case as that's the only case there is.

    What may or may not happen in the future with a federal investigation will be discusses when it is concluded.

    Thank you for asking rather than just posting.

    Parent

    willis you may not use (none / 0) (#141)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 04:46:01 PM EST
    profanity here. Even when quoting statements. You must use asterisks or censor software in use at law firms and businesses flag us.

    I'm deleting your comment.

    are you sure that was me? (none / 0) (#177)
    by willisnewton on Tue May 29, 2012 at 09:10:12 PM EST
    I've made every effort to change profanities when I see them.  

    I also don't detect a comment I've made as missing.  

    Sorry if this exceeds my four comment limit.  Sorrier still that I won't be able to finish my idea of movements and timelines.  We were just getting to the good part.  

    Parent

    Willis, I thought it was you (none / 0) (#199)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:35:42 PM EST
    and that I deleted it. If it wasn't you, sorry.

    You can come back tomorrow, we're not going anywhere, but only four comments per thread due to your position.

    And save your comments on your computer. I know how much work and time you put into them and I don't  want you to lose your work if I delete it as too long or inappropriate for this site.

    Thanks.

    Parent

    You got deleted (none / 0) (#226)
    by unitron on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:53:59 AM EST
    I don't remember all of the ins and outs of the post but I replied to it to ask if you thought Zimmerman was driving during any of the phone call and my post is still there (for now) but the one of yours to which it was in reply is nowhere to be seen.

    Parent
    Time line (none / 0) (#151)
    by Andybinga on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:14:50 PM EST
    On page 40/183 of the discovery dispatch posted times that are different.

    the report says the info (none / 0) (#159)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 06:59:03 PM EST
    came from the seminole county sheriff's office computer. The actual dispatch report with times is here. Since the call was connected at 7:09, that's the actual time of the call. The 7:11 time is when the dispatch record was created, there's a lag time of about a minute and a half. If I'm not quite explaining this right just look at the document and you can see the connection time in the top left.

    Parent
    Timeline (none / 0) (#192)
    by Andybinga on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:19:08 PM EST
    The timeline is going to come into question at some point as dispatch records do not match what is the report given to Investigator D. Singleton by computer aided dispatch.

    This is going to be one of the complications of the case that will not come to light until the actual dispatchers on duty explain the difference between the two.

    Parent

    Time differences (none / 0) (#213)
    by LoveMyGirl on Wed May 30, 2012 at 02:33:15 AM EST
    I believe you are correct from what I have read. There are the times of the call and when the dispatcher types it in. That explains the seconds difference in some of the times. I have also read about rounding of times for either the calls on the police calls and the non police calls. This is easily explainable and matters of seconds in what little has been made public mean little.

    Parent
    Anne, who are you responding to (none / 0) (#201)
    by Jeralyn on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:38:14 PM EST
    I've deleted the comments that suggest Trayvon was committing a drug offense. I don't monitor comments 24.7, I do have a day job, but I get around to it when I can. And sooner if someone points it out to me like they do spam violators. If I agree, I'll delete the comment and your objection as if neither had been posted. If I disagree I'll just delete your objection so you don't look like a whiner.

    It's fine, Jeralyn - I was responding to (none / 0) (#236)
    by Anne on Wed May 30, 2012 at 09:39:25 AM EST
    "lousy1" I believe, who keeps beating the drug offense drum; thanks for cleaning up!

    Parent
    "Zim"? It is pretty interesting (none / 0) (#207)
    by oculus on Tue May 29, 2012 at 11:56:16 PM EST
    to read this thread.  

    there was dna from (none / 0) (#208)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 30, 2012 at 12:24:46 AM EST
    two males on the holster. TM wasn't excluded (as he was on for the grip) See Evidence item DSM-21 (dna swabs submitted for grip,  trigger, slide and holster. Results report on p. 104. Holster is item DSM-21D. We don't know what GZ said, he may have said TM was reaching or struggling for the gun and not that he actually got ahold of it.

    The lack of TM's DNA or fingerprints on the grip don't mean he didn't try and reach for it, if that should be what GZ is  claiming.

    This photo taken hours later doesn't make you think a continued pummeling might cause a concussion? There's no requirement you wait until the damage is done. The test is whether you fear seious injury. Your fear doesn't have to be real, you just have to believe it is real, and your belief that it is real must be one others would view as reasonable.

    If someone slammed your  head even once into the ground, I would think  fear of serious bodily injury was reasonable -- particularly fear of brain damage or neurological impairment.

    I listened to all four medics/fire rescue reports and the one by their supervisor, and read the one jointly written  report. I saw no assertion that GZ said what you claim he said to them, or  that they didn't believe it. I thought it was GZ's father who relayed that information to the public.

    They weren't interviewed until the third week in March. Unless you can substantiate that allegation, your comment will be deleted as spreading rumors and mis-information.

    Back to timelines and routes please.

    Partial Timeline (none / 0) (#214)
    by MarvinM on Wed May 30, 2012 at 03:06:42 AM EST
    Well, I don' have an entire timeline/route sorted out in my head, but I do have evidence to believe Z did not 'stop following' M when instructed by the police dispatcher.

    00:02:15     D: OK, and which entrance is that that he's heading for?

    00:02:16    Z: The back entrance.

    00:02:20    (wind sound starts, indicating Z is running,  raspy underbreath stuff unclear "f**king ????)

    00:02:23     D: Are you following him?

    00:02:24    Z: Yeah

    00:02:24     D: OK, we don't need you to do that.

    00:02:28    Z: OK

    00:02:28    (wind sound continues, indicating Zimmerman running)

    00:02:34    D: Alright sir, what is your name?

    00:02:36     Z: George.  He ran.

    00:02:40     D: Alright George, what's your last name?

    00:02:41    (wind sound stops)

    The presence of the wind sound and some huffing by Z indicates he is running for 21 seconds, 17 of those seconds after he is advised by the dispatcher that 'we don't need you to do that' [follow].  

    The phone call goes on for a further 1:23.  If Z had started to head back to his truck at that point, he would have been there (unless anyone wants to concoct a story of Z returning to the truck and then going back to the T area).

    I believe Z ran into the area between the buildings, lost sight of M, and continued to look for him, exact route I currently haven't speculated, but it's possible he got further than some scenarios suggest.

    Not An Instruction (5.00 / 1) (#221)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:00:13 AM EST
    I do have evidence to believe Z did not 'stop following' M when instructed by the police dispatcher.

    He wasn't 'instructed'. At most the dispatcher's remark was a tactfully worded suggestion.

    I have yet to see statute or case law showing that police dispatchers have authority to 'instruct' citizens in these circumstances.

    Parent

    I'll mea culpa (5.00 / 0) (#223)
    by MarvinM on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:31:51 AM EST
    for the 'instructed' (I should have used 'advised' as I did later in the post.

    But other than that, do you have anything else to critique/comment about my post?

    Parent

    Try running with your phone and record results. (none / 0) (#215)
    by Redbrow on Wed May 30, 2012 at 03:33:11 AM EST
    The entire state attorneys office focusing all their resources on this case could not come up with evidence that Zimmerman continued to follow or confront Trayvon, after the suggestion he no longer need follow.

    The 'wind sound' heard during the call is almost certainly from... the wind.

    History for Sanford, FL Sunday, February 26, 2012
    Wind Speed    7 mph (ENE)          
    Max Wind Speed    17 mph          
    Max Gust Speed    22 mph          

    Jogging= 5-6 mph

    Parent

    Can we agree (5.00 / 0) (#220)
    by MarvinM on Wed May 30, 2012 at 03:58:44 AM EST
    that the wind sound does not start immediately when Z exits his vehicle?

    00:02:10    (car door open `pings')

    00:02:12     Z: Down towards the other entrance to the other entrance of the neighborhood

    00:02:14    (sound like car door shuts, car door open `pings' no longer heard)

    00:02:15     D: OK, and which entrance is that that he's heading for?

    00:02:16    Z: The back entrance.

    00:02:20    (wind sound starts, indicating Z is running,  raspy underbreath stuff unclear "f**king ????)

    Are you seriously telling me you believe Z was just walking and there was a freak wind gust for 21 seconds and then it stopped?

    He was outside of his vehicle after 2:14 until the end of the call (4:04).  Please explain why there is no wind sound after 2:41 for nearly a minute and a half.


    Parent

    When he was heading eastward, into the wind (none / 0) (#224)
    by Redbrow on Wed May 30, 2012 at 04:38:00 AM EST
    on the top of the 'T' toward Retreat View Circle the sound was louder. When heading back west, his back was to the wind and the noise was less.

    His car is vehicle is parked a bit south of the 'T' and the houses blocked some of the wind until he was further north and was exposed directly to the wind.

    That would be my guess considering several people have tried to simulate the wind noise by running with their phone to their ear and none of them could create or detect any wind noise.

    Parent

    Artificial wind (5.00 / 1) (#229)
    by unitron on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:08:44 AM EST
    That sound of air moving past the cell phone's microphone is caused by the cell phone moving through the air while Zimmerman is jogging or running.

    It's not random enough to be actual wind.

    It co-incides too neatly with Zimmerman's labored breathing and footfalls.

    I have several decades of broadcasting and live audio mixing experience to inform my opinion.

    Right after he says Martin is running you can hear him exit his vehicle and shut the door behind him, and then the sounds of jogging or running start up.

    16 seconds later he says OK after being told they don't need for him to follow.

    The noises go on for about another 10 seconds before abating.

    At that point he can be said to have quit following (or searching) at his previous rapid pace.

    He may have stood still for the rest of the conversation and maybe even longer, or he may have continued looking, or resumed looking, more quietly.

    Parent

    Mind the Gap - A Unified Theory (none / 0) (#217)
    by Cylinder on Wed May 30, 2012 at 03:51:23 AM EST
    The following is my best candidate theory concerning routes and timelines, keeping in mind that this thread has been given some extra latitude regarding speculation.

    Zimmerman, on his way to Target, spots Martin, returning from the 7-11, taking the northwest shortcut into the Retreat. Zimmerman becomes suspicious of Martin for some unknown (at this point) reason and decides to observe. After entering the complex, Zimmerman tries to reacquire Martin.

    Zimmerman cannot find Martin and probably drives west (left) on to Retreat View and looks for Martin down the row of townhomes. Zimmerman follows Retreat View's dogleg and at some point probably spots Martin behind him and traveling east. At this point, Martin has probably noticed Zimmerman's vehicle driving slowly along the row of houses as well. Zimmerman follows Retreat View, cuts over on Long Oak, turns north (left) on Twin Trees, follows that dogleg and stops on Twin Trees to observe from his vehicle - which is facing west. He reacquires Martin at the clubhouse, which prompts his suspicious person call. From this point on in the series of events, each is primarily focused on the other.

    I'm basing the routes so far on the NEN call to SPD. Clearly, Zimmerman has observed Martin at this point. He describes behavior (e.g. "looking at houses" "something is wrong with this guy" etc..) He hasn't had a completely clear view of Martin, he can describe clothing and has an idea about race. This suggests to me kind of in-and-out glimpses of a person - like you might encounter from a moving vehicle. The call also suggests to me that Zimmerman had acquired and lost Martin during the initial encounter. He voices some frustration (e.g. "these a--holes always get away") to the SPD dispatcher.

    The middle portion of the encounter is narrated by Zimmerman himself. Martin, having noticed Zimmerman, walks near the vehicle to take the cut through and begins running. Zimmerman loses Martin and leaves his vehicle to observe from the pedestrian path. The SPD dispatcher issues the infamous "we don't need you to do that."

    It is my opinion that when Martin ran, he turned right at the T and ran down the dog run ("headed for the back entrance") toward his house. It is also my opinion that Zimmerman completed his NEN call either at the T or only slightly down the dog walk. No house numbers would be visible from that location and there is a distinct change in the interference from wind at that point - as if he had walked into a wind break.

    Zimmerman, waiting on SPD, is shining a flashlight down the dog walk and common rear entrances of the double row of townhomes. He is visible for blocks. Martin, wearing a dark hoodie is much harder to spot.

    Martin sees the light source and decides to use the gap between blocks to move over to east loop of Retreat View. Near the same time Zimmerman travels along the cut to the same street to either get find a number or (more probably) observe. Again, Martin spots the light source (or sees Zimmerman in the street lights) and reverses direction through the gap. Zimmerman, having given up spotting Martin, returns to the truck - with one last look down the dog walk.

    This accounts for the seemily non-confrontational gap of time and gets the actors in their proper places for the final, fatal, encounter to unfold.

    Whether Martin decided to move up the dog walk in order to lose Zimmerman or noticed Zimmerman retracing his steps and decided to confront is beyond my ability to speculate at this point. If the witness is credible, someone was spotted about this part of the timeline running up the dog walk toward the top of the T.

    Again, this scenario relies heavily on speculation and is subject to change as new evidence surfaces. I invite any objections regarding timeline or routes.

    Feel free to delete without comment if this post violates the TOS regarding length.

    I'm confused... (none / 0) (#230)
    by unitron on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:26:43 AM EST
    I'm confused, even more so than usual.

    In your scenario does Zimmerman leave his house in the southwest corner of the community and proceed northward up the western leg of Retreat View, with the eventual goal of curving around to the east and then turning north onto Twin Trees to go out the main gate and on to Target?

    After seeing Martin does he pull a U-turn and go back down Retreat View almost all the way to his house and then turn east onto Long Oak?

    Parent

    Sentence #3 (none / 0) (#231)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:56:11 AM EST
    After entering the complex, Zimmerman tries to reacquire Martin.

    This is where you lose me. Wasn't Zimmerman already in the complex?

    Parent
    Errr.... (none / 0) (#233)
    by Cylinder on Wed May 30, 2012 at 06:30:19 AM EST
    That's working from the assumption that Zimmerman is outside the complex, when he first spots Martin cutting through. Do we have any word on this?

    Parent
    No Word (none / 0) (#235)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 07:51:49 AM EST
    Police reports don't say where Zimmerman was when he first saw Martin.

    I doubt it would be Oregon Ave. The speed limit inside the complex is 15mph (p. 162), giving a driver lots of time for observing suspicious behavior.

    The shortcut access point is over 150 feet from Oregon Ave.

    Are you assuming Zimmerman was on the lookout for any young black male entering through the shortcut? Or just the ones in hoodies?

    Parent

    I Like This (none / 0) (#234)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 07:23:03 AM EST
    It is also my opinion that Zimmerman completed his NEN call either at the T or only slightly down the dog walk. No house numbers would be visible from that location and there is a distinct change in the interference from wind at that point - as if he had walked into a wind break.

    It makes sense for the stopping of the wind noise to reflect Zimmerman reaching a place between buildings where he was sheltered from the wind. He could have stayed in that area, near the T or walking south on the dog walk, until the call ended.

    If he stopped running when he said 'OK' to the dispatcher, and walked through the cut-through, I think the time will work well. I haven't done the calculation yet.  

    Parent

    Wind Noise (none / 0) (#219)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 03:56:35 AM EST
    It took ten seconds or more for Zimmerman to turn his back to the wind?

    Curses (none / 0) (#228)
    by nomatter0nevermind on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:03:50 AM EST
    "You got me  or It's over "(after being shot especially since death was instant)"

    I doubt Martin said anything when he died. Zimmerman may have misinterpreted an inarticulate noise.

    For teen thug in a fight not a single curse word?

    Robert Zimmerman Sr. said Martin used an expletive. It's censored in the interview.

    The Orlando Sentinel paraphrased:

    Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.



    Dee Dee (none / 0) (#263)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 12:58:28 PM EST
    Doesn't Dee Dee (in her interview (deposition?) with the state prosecutor say "[TM] ran from the back"?

    That TM "lost the guy [GZ]" (not sure if it's an exact quote), that he "ran from the back" and he's "walking back again".

    Not sure what it means but maybe TM left the dogwalk area (the common backyards between the town homes).

    It's also not clear exactly what "walking back again" means here.  Maybe getting back on track to get home?   ??

    the evidence map and the gap - possibilities (none / 0) (#266)
    by willisnewton on Wed May 30, 2012 at 02:57:59 PM EST
    If you believe, like GZ's father, that GZ continued east on the cut thru to RVC, then TM did not pursue him there, and instead seems to have encountered him somewhere in the vicinity of the T, or west of the T or else the location of the body.  There's no evidence that TM was ever near the T intersection.  There's evidence and statements to the press in the form of RZ's statement that GZ likely was near the T, and yes there is likely testimony that TM was near the T, but there is no evidence he was near the T.  

    I happen to think that TM took the dirt path to cut the corner into the dog walk grass, shortcutting his need to pass the T on his first run east, fleeing GZ who was still in his vehicle, moving or not moving.  All of TM's evidence is scattered between the tan bag and the body's immediate proximity, at most around 15-16 feet apart in a place that is 30 feet south of the T.

    Witnesses heard an argument that moved and a fight that stayed still, I contend.  John saw a fight that didn't move far, more a change of orientation that a change of location.  

    But of course we don't really know where an argument started and where it became a physical fight.   We do know what RZ says about the length of the verbal argument before he says the fight went to the ground.  It's very short.  Yet someone thought it serious at some point to merit a call 911.  W-11 and W-20 seem to think the argument went on long enough for them to have moved from the cut thru to the dog walk side from what they heard.  Is that the length of "do you have a problem/no/now you do? or is it longer?  

    Certainly at some point the argument became a physical fight, and GZ sustained the injuries seen in the photos.  But we don't really know through witnesses or thru evidence when the altercation turned physical - was it up by the T where GZ may have dropped his keychain flashlight, or was it down by the tan bag?  (There are of course other possibilities) But these two items seem to suggest that it didn't START by the body, cell phone and black flashlight unless we assume the tan bag and keychain flashlight were tossed somehow - which I'm willing to entertain the possibility of in regards the keychain, however unlikely it may be - but how far can one toss a plastic bag?  I put the distance between the tan bag and the shell casing at around 16 feet.   And if the keychain flashlight was tossed - where from?  By the bag or by the body?  And if GZ or TM was by the bag or body's location when he did the tossing, what was GZ doing 30 feet south of the T, and off his route to(wards) his vehicle?  

    If TM simply stood still in plain sight in the grass near John's patio, he was probably easily overlooked by the distracted GZ headed east on the cut thru, which is seemingly where he felt the teen had gone.  

    There is no evidence or testimony that tells us TM ever hid himself, not from GZ's father or brother, not from DeeDee, nto from witnesses.  I wonder if GZ simply had a working flashlight (his keychain one) by the time he was walking west, and used it to see T M who had not moved from John's backyard area?  Having a flashlight shined in your eyes might be reason enough to ask "why are you following me" or "do you have an eff-ing problem?  

    It seems unlikely that the initial visual recognition and verbal exchange was at a face to face (or striking) distance.  So someone closed a gap.  GZ's innocent path is west on the cut through.  TM's innocent path is south on the dog walk.  All of the evidence is south of the cut through.  Someone closed a gap.

    I can't explain myself any more than that.  All of the evidence is south of the cut through, along the innocent path of TM.  None of the evidence is on the route GZ's father and the Orlando Sentinel's police leak tells us.  

    If GZ met T M near the bag or near the body, then GZ was no longer returning to(wards) his vehicle at the time, and he may have lied to investigators if he told them what his father said, and what Frank Taaffe re-enacted eight or so feet south of the T.  And somehow his keys were left, dropped or tossed to a place 8 feet from the T.  

    If GZ met TM on the cut through, he soon left the cut through by some means that doesn't seem to be lying on his back with a broken nose and a seventeen year old boy astride him, unless we are to believe he did so for around 45 feet from the cut through to where his black flashlight and the body and the shell casing was found, presumably with the black flashlight in his hand the whole way.  T M would of course have his cell phone in his hand the whole time as well, and maybe somewhere along the way the tan bag fell out of his hoodie's pocket.    The story told by GZ's father includes no scuttling or grappling of any kind, just a sucker punch that puts GZ on the ground "at that point" after a very short verbal exchange.  

    All of this suggests to me that at minimum, GZ left the mission of "returning to his truck" and walked some 30-40 feet south of the T for some purpose he may not have admitted to investigators.  And that's a deliberate distance off of his route to(wards) his vehicle that he's not being candid about, and it doesn't explain the keychain flashlight's position.  

    Isn't it a lot more likely that the keys were dropped near the T and that GZ deliberately crossed the distance to the bag, body or flashlight on his own steam and for a reason?  It could have been a feint, a lunge, or some action that pulled TM's earphones out of the phone jack, and caused the keys to fall.  Perhaps T M was the aggressor, and broke GZ's nose there by the T.  But it doesn't seem that GZ fell to the ground where his nose was broken, in that case.  Instead it seems like they walked or ran until they fell near the phone and the flashlight and the shell casing and the body were grouped.

    None of these scenarios square with the one his father, who was present at the walk through gave to the press.  What did he say?

    see here
    http://tinyurl.com/7ve56sr

    Dee Dee, another segment (none / 0) (#268)
    by Mary2012 on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:02:01 PM EST
    Just trying to see if I can figure out exactly what Dee Dee might be referring to, and whether or not it works.
    -----------------

    Again, these are cryptic notes:

    -----------------

    DD: In a couple of minutes [i.e., after TM "ran from the back"??] TM says to her: "[Man] following behind again"

    DD: Run!

    TM: [out of breath; not going to run] "Guy getting close to [TM]"

    DD: Run!  Keep running!

    TM: Not going to run

    (DD asks Why not? and then explains TM is breathing hard, he is tired, and repeats 'Guy getting real close to him')

    Me: is it possible TM/GZ are back near the T at this point?

    DD: (DD hears TM ask "Why are you following me for?")

    and of course, it goes on...

    --------------------

    Is anyone else getting the impression TM (perhaps GZ, too) might have passed the T intersection twice?  

    Possibility 4 (none / 0) (#269)
    by miloh on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:05:03 PM EST
    TM might have run down Twin Trees then turned North on the path between the townhomes.  GZ follows behind.

    TM slows down near his own back porch, then GZ confronts him.  After an initial scuffle, TM and GZ run North on the path.

    This fits with Witness 2 statements.  The timing works out well, too.

    The White Truck is a Nissan Titan (none / 0) (#270)
    by miloh on Wed May 30, 2012 at 05:06:50 PM EST
    There is a white Ford F150 near the cutoff.  Its in the Google Map/Earth overhead shots, too.

    But in a couple of the crime scene pics, the truck near where Taaffe places GZ'a truck, is a white Nissan Titan.

    NOT a Honda.

    this thread is now closed (none / 0) (#271)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 30, 2012 at 07:29:44 PM EST
    we were over 200 comments, I've deleted some that were off-topic and all of those I saw that raised negative character allegations.