Video of Zimmerman Night Of Trayvon Killing


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In my view, it severely undermines Zimmerman's claims.

Speaking for me only

(TL:) Comments now closed.)

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  • Wow (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 07:51:54 PM EST
    What happened to the blood, the head injuries, the broken nose?

    Wow. I'm prepared to see a (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:11:56 PM EST
    man with clothing disheveled and stained with blood and grass, with cuts on his head, swelling from the broken nose, and what do I see?

    A man who looks perfectly fine: clean, no cuts, no bruises; if he had hair, I'd say, "not a hair out of place."

    This is going to change things, for sure.

    Clean (none / 0) (#107)
    by Addison on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:16:17 PM EST
    I mean, based on that video, the defense should have been that everyone at the scene of the shooting hallucinated, and Zimmerman not only didn't murder Trayvon, but he didn't shoot anyone at all and there was no scuffle at all. Good grief.

    Ditto (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:18:47 PM EST
    My response was also wow.  He's so calm and there isn't any evidence of any scuffle.

    Question for lawyers.... is this tape allowable evidence in a trial?

    Noticed too how the police let him walk into (3.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:23:43 PM EST
    The building unpoliced.  After he shot someone?  Really?

    I don't think it unexpected (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:18:33 PM EST
    They are in a secure lot, notice the metal gate?  He's not going anywhere.  I think the behavior comes from having a personal relationship.

    That's what I thought too (none / 0) (#65)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:33:58 PM EST
    They treated him like they have a kind of relationship with him.

    I was thinking the (none / 0) (#25)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:25:17 PM EST
    same thing. But this might be normal police behavior? I certainly have no idea whether it is or not. Maybe someone here knows the answer.

    MT watch the video again (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:00:59 PM EST
    They search him after he gets out of the car.

    He stands against the wall while a third policeman comes out.

    His hands are handcuffed behind his back.

    Two police are in front and one behind.


    Yes. (none / 0) (#122)
    by oculus on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 12:01:46 AM EST
    Do a search (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:05:42 PM EST
    I thought he went the next day so I did a search...
    There are multiple pages that list he refused hospital treatment and went the next day.

    {He traveled to the police station that night to give his account of events and then went home. Sanford police confirm that he did not warrant medical attention at the scene and did not seek medical attention until the next day.}Daily Beast.

    News reports have consistently ... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:24:05 PM EST
    ... stated he was treated at the scene and was not taken to the hospital.  if he was taken to the hospital, I can't imagine his attorney would have mentioned this during any of the interviews he's done.

    LA Times

    Orlando Sentinel


    Yet more new info (none / 0) (#64)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:30:25 PM EST
    as Jeralyn also clarifies above, about going to the hospital the next day.

    Then why wouldn't he and the police have provided hospital records or a statement about his claimed injuries, sooner, to support their decisions?


    because they are not supplying (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:21:42 PM EST
    any details of the investigation other than the initial police report (pursuant to public records law) an update or two and a few press releases.

    They have supplied the results of their investigation, including witness statements, Zimmerman's statements, crime scene evidence etc to the state's attorney's office.

    All else out there is leaks and shouldn't be relied on as facts.

    All versions I've seen say he sought medical treatment the next day, not that night. It's not clear whether he went to a doctor, an urgent care type facility or a hospital.

    Zimmerman has not discussed what happened publicly. The police say he has been cooperative.  His lawyer and another friend are the ones talking about his broken nose and getting treatment the next day.

    The public is not entitled to reports of the investigation at this time. Trials take place in public, investigations do not.

    It will all come out at the appropriate time.


    Now we're hearing that ... (5.00 / 3) (#132)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 03:06:17 AM EST
    ... Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee was at the scene of the shooting -- I'm not calling it a crime scene -- and State's Attorney Norman Wolfinger was also present either at the scene, or at the police station when Zimmerman was brought in for questioning:

    "A source with knowledge of the investigation into the shooting of Trayvon Martin tells theGrio that it was then Sanford police chief Bill Lee, along with Capt. Robert O'Connor, the investigations supervisor, who made the decision to release George Zimmerman on the night of February 26th, after consulting with State Attorney Norman Wolfinger -- in person.

    "Wolfinger's presence at the scene or at the police department in the night of a shooting would be unusual, according to the source. On a typical case, police contact the state attorney's office and speak with an on duty assistant state attorney; they either discuss the matter by phone or the on duty assistant state attorney comes to the crime scene - but rarely the state attorney him or herself."

    As far as Zimmerman's fate goes, que sera sera, and I'm not concerned with that right now.  What's really bothering me is the behavior of Sanford authorities. There are a lot of things that aren't making sense here. Or let's put it this way: if I'm putting two and two together, I'm sensing something very ugly here, a concerted effort to obstruct justice that goes to the top of the food chain.

    Think about it. Key witnesses go uninterviewed for days and weeks -- including Trayvon'e girlfriend, who was on the phone with him in the moments before his death, and who STILL hasn't been interviewed. And why the sudden and immediate interest in George Zimmerman on the part of both Chief Lee and S.A. Wolfinger, to the point that they would both show up in person on a Sunday night, overrule the professional judgment of veteran Homicide Det. Chris Serino, and let Zimmerman go free that same night? Is there a heretofore undisclosed relationship between these men and Zimmerman's father, a retired judge?

    And finally, why the concerted effort by the Sanford police leadership to mislead the public and the media by overstating the extent of Zimmerman's alleged injuries -- if indeed, there were any injuries at all? They would have gotten away with it, had ABC News not gotten hold of this videotape of Zimmerman at the station.

    To say that I'm appalled and disgusted at what's happening in Sanford is a severe understatement. This is the year 2012, dammit, and not 1922. Call me naive, but I expect better from Southern law enforcement at this juncture in the ongoing story of our nation, than this modern-day reprise of the Emmett Till tragedy.

    I stand by my statement of the last few days, that Sanford authorities have an awful lot of explaining to do, preferably to federal investigators.



    I understand the stance, but (none / 0) (#94)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:29:39 PM EST
    that would seem to negate need for a lot of this blog.

    I am intrigued that video is public record but police reports are not?  I thought that police reports were public record, at least that's what I was taught 'way back in Journalism 101, when I first went to police stations to get them.


    The video (none / 0) (#102)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:40:13 PM EST
    was likely leaked, not a public record.

    This blog mostly discusses cases that have been charged or  are headed to trial or appeal -- where there are court documents and official documents to go by. It is very distasteful to be covering an investigation this way, and I have only written a few posts on it to caution against jumping to the Nancy Grace/Guilt Sells in America view. I did not write this post and would not have posted this video. Without a time frame and more context, it is meaningless.


    I agree there are troubling aspects . . . (none / 0) (#111)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:24:03 PM EST
    of covering an investigation like this. Normally I'd be more of the attitude, leave it up to a jury who will be more informed about the issues than I ever will be. But in this case, it looked as though there might not be a trial before the public outcry. So it seems to me an outcry was necessary, even if there are troubling aspects to it.

    I read Zimmerman refused medical (none / 0) (#123)
    by oculus on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 12:04:47 AM EST
    treatment at the scene.  Which is different than not needing it.  Should be a form he signed verifying he refused medical treatment.  

    he refused their offer to go (none / 0) (#133)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 03:06:26 AM EST
    directly to the hospital (which probably would have required calling an ambulance.) He allowed the Fire Rescue people to treat his wounds in the patrol car, according to the police report. You're making it sound like he refused all medical attention because he didn't need any.  He just wasn't treated by a physician or at the hospital that night.

    Radar Online (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:37:55 PM EST
    frequently gets stuff wrong, I have found. They are no better than the Enquirer in my view. I think it's because the sources who contact them are doing so to further their own agenda.

    I deleted the comment (none / 0) (#90)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:27:43 PM EST
    linking to Radar because it contains allegations disputed by all other sources and is a distraction.

    There are a great many unanswered questions. (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by Mitch Guthman on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:25:52 PM EST
    First, I do agree that Zimmerman does not look like he was on the receiving end of violence of any kind.  There is a good clear view of his front and the back of his head and there is no indication that the back of his head was being smashed into the concrete. No blood on him or on his clothing, even though head wounds tend to bleed copiously.  None of his supposed wounds didn't even require a bandaid. Also, his clothing is immaculate.  Not only isn't there any blood evident, there isn't any dirt or mud either---even though it was raining.  Also, the officer who rather casually pats Zimmerman down does not appear to be wearing gloves which supports the inference that there was no blood on Zimmerman's clothing.

    I also don't see what difference it makes if he went for "medical treatment" the following day (presumably after lawyering up) since he so obviously hadn't been hurt in the first place.  Another question:  Do firefighters or EMT's file reports and, if so, what did their's say about Zimmerman's injuries?

    Second, I have some questions about the police report.   Is it customary for the Sanford police to select the lowest conceivable charge as the booking charge?  This seems odd to me but I have only worked in two states so I honestly don't know.    Nevertheless, in the jurisdiction where I was a prosecutor, it was customary to use either a general "homicide" charge or the highest possible charge as the booking charge.  Booking Zimmerman for what I gather is the Florida equivalent of voluntary manslaughter (which I believe to be the lowest possible charge) instead of just "homicide" or the highest degree of homicide possible as the top charge rather than looking to tie the screener's hand with what is essentially a legal judgment.  

    Which makes me wonder who wrote the initial report, when was it written and was it written after consultation with the DA, higher ups in the SPD, Zimmerman's lawyer, etc?

    Both the fire department (none / 0) (#126)
    by cpresley on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 12:54:58 AM EST
    and the paramedics would have written a complete report. In the case of the fire department one firefighter on scene is designated the report writer. You need a written report for vitals, all care given. This report is needed not only by the police but for the paramedics if fire was first on scene and for the Doctor in ER if the patient is transported.

    he didn't lawyer up (none / 0) (#134)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 03:13:51 AM EST
    He spoke to the police for a few hours that bight without counsel. The video doesn't show his clothes were "immaculate" -- it's way too grainy for that.

    As for what the fire rescue people and others say, and the results of the forensic exam of his clothing, you'll have to wait until the investigation is complete and reports are available.

    Zimmerman was not "booked". He was not arrested. The police report is merely an incident report. It's not an accusation.

    The reports state who wrote each. One was written by the first guy at the scene, who put Zimmerman in the patrol car,took his gun and logged it into evidence, and the other was written by an officer who arrived later, while Zimmerman was still at the scene in the patrol car.


    Heartbreaking (1.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:21:07 PM EST
    If this was the guy who feared for his life so shot my 17 year old son to death....after he deliberately hunted him from a vehicle....I am forever broken inside.  This is the stuff of soul destruction for those who must survive one of their children being "killed".  And losing a fight to a teenager after you hunted him from your car does not mean that then you get to kill him.

    "Hunted"? (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by bocajeff on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:31:27 PM EST
    You know that for a fact? He hunted? didn't follow? He "hunted"? geez...

    The video is hours after the incident (1.00 / 1) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:38:14 PM EST
    and isn't clear enough to show anything.

    Those of you who want to lynch Zimmerman will see what you want to see.

    Two questions (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:44:46 PM EST
    How do you know it was "hours" after the incident? The ABC story accompanying the video does not say that. Instead it reports that "The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning."

    How many "hours" of medical treatment did Zimmerman receive? Did he get to shower and change before he went to the police station?

    Where are the indicia of wounds?

    Now, it may be that your eyesight does not allow you to discern that there are no markings on the back of his head, but mine is not.

    I see no injury to his nose.

    I do not understand your comment.


    And I have never seen medical treatment for (5.00 / 2) (#75)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:48:50 PM EST
    wounds of any kind, whether it took hours or minutes, that didn't result in at least a band-aid.  

    What Jeralyn said (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:47:44 PM EST
    What I said to Jeralyn (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:55:17 PM EST
    "Lynch" (5.00 / 3) (#117)
    by Addison on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:44:17 PM EST
    Stop using the word "lynch" to mean "charge and see tried by a jury of his peers".

    You may disagree with those who wish to see this come to trial, that's fine, but in no way is it a lynching. Not a metaphorical way, not a literal way. You've been corrected on this issue several times. Please stop it.


    Good point. (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:45:22 PM EST
    He needs a fair trial to clear his good name, right Jim?

    You can't have people all over the internet refusing to see all the blood all over that nice white shirt, after all.


    Well, since you want to speculate (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:54:17 PM EST
    I speculate what you see is him in a T shirt. The shirt he had on was so dirty, bloody and torn that he had taken it off.

    Right back at ya.

    Tell me, Edger.

    Why is it you don't want a calm reasoned investigation???


    A calm reasoned investigation (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:09:04 PM EST
    In which the police let him go home, wash up, have his broken nose and head wounds disappeared - all in a couple of hours (he's young and heals fast?) - change his clothes, and dispose of any and all evidence supporting his claims?

    That kind of calm reasoned investigation?

    Sure Jim. Sounds reasonable. Sure....


    Everyone wants a "calm, reasoned ... (5.00 / 2) (#57)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:16:23 PM EST
    ... investigation", but pointing out that there's no blood on Zimmerman's shirt is a fact, not speculation.  But claiming that his shirt was removed because it was so torn, bloodied and dirty is speculation.

    They're asking reasonable questions. (none / 0) (#101)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:38:42 PM EST
    George Zimmerman was quite obviously in handcuffs as he got out of the squad car. Why would they allow him change his "dirty, bloodied and torn" shirt (which would be evidence, BTW), before cuffing him and taking him down to the station? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever -- unless the Sanford police are truly the institutional equivalent of a clown car.

    I don't think we know (none / 0) (#114)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:34:06 PM EST
    whether or not the police confiscated his clothes. According to the official police report, they did confiscate his gun, which the media and Internet have been outraged about for days that they didn't.  Well, they did.  They may well have taken his clothes, too.

    There's been a HUGE amount of misinformation on this case, and I'm not trusting any secondhand reports.


    Where did he get the clean cothes? (none / 0) (#118)
    by cpresley on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:52:06 PM EST
    I can tell you for a fact that neither firetrucks or ambulances carry clean clothes on board.If you were butt necked the best you could hope for is a blanket from the ambulance, or a firefighter putting their turnout coat on you.

    the police say they took his clothes (none / 0) (#131)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 03:01:00 AM EST
    Orlando Sun Sentinel on the case myths

    [Myth:] Sanford police failed to collect key evidence in the case: the clothing of George Zimmerman, the gunman who killed Trayvon.

    Not true, police said. They took his clothing as well as Trayvon's and packaged it for crime-lab analysis. A spokeswoman for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey would not disclose Tuesday where the clothing is now, but she wrote in an email that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement "is assisting with the processing of physical evidence."

    It's what we DON'T see (none / 0) (#50)
    by Yman on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:59:45 PM EST
    It's certainly clear enough to show no blood on his shirt, as there would be from a serious head wound and/or broken nose.  It's clear enough to show no obvious bruises.  His head is clean shaven, and there are no signs of injuries from having his head "slammed into the sidewalk", as Zimmerman claimed.

    Life experience (none / 0) (#51)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:00:16 PM EST
    People can only go on their own experiences.  I've been in scuffles.... his clothes are orderly.  Was he allowed to straighten his clothes and is that proper procedure in a shooting?  I have had my nose banged not broken.  It bled some and there were only a couple of drops on my shirt as I bent forward, but I had darkening under my eyes within an hour and several hours later I had two dark eyes.  Even if he leaned forward immediately (didn't he state he was on his back) it's awkward to clean up and there is usually blood around the nostrils.

    Also to proper procedure... is it normal to search clothing without gloves?  It doesn't look like the officer is wearing gloves.


    Why do you think the video undermines (none / 0) (#1)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 07:44:56 PM EST
    Zimmerman's claims? Is it because he appears to be in fine shape? At least, as fine a shape as anyone in handcuffs can be?

    No blood on the back ofhis head (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 07:46:56 PM EST
    No wound on the back of his head.

    His nose seems fine.

    His clothes seem fine.

    He seems fine.


    Yep, I too was struck by (none / 0) (#3)
    by caseyOR on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 07:50:58 PM EST
    just how fine he appears to be. Given that, why are so many insisting that there was blood on him? I guess he could have been cleaned up at the crime scene, maybe by the EMTs, but is that something that usually happens?

    No blood ok (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 07:55:05 PM EST
    But there is no wound, no swelling, no nothing, that I can see.

    Recall that the initial police report is said to have made no mention of any wounds.


    And let me be clear (3.00 / 2) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 07:56:37 PM EST
    I assumed there was a scuffle at some point and Zimmerman would show signs of it.

    My view is that that would not exonerate him as he was the initiator of the confrontation. Losing a fight does not mean you get to kill the other guy.

    I am shocked at this video.


    check the time (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:19:08 PM EST
    of the video or find a report saying what time he arrived at the police station before being shocked.

    Do you have some report (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:26:56 PM EST
    the verifies that?

    My recollection is that he was taken to the station IMMEDIATELY from the scene after some basic first aid from EMT (no evidence form EMT to back this up) and refused to go to the hospital.

    This video is bizarre even, hell, especially as you explain it.

    Why would it take 4 hours to take Zimmerman to the police station from the scene when he did not go to the hospital?


    Should I assume that the officer who (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:42:34 PM EST
    did the extensive pat-down and examination of his jacket when he gets out of the police car is not the officer who put him in the car?

    And I don't know anyone who's taken a hard hit to the nose, much less had it broken, who didn't gush blood like someone turned on a faucet; how he managed not to get any of it on him makes me wonder about pretty much everything.

    Sure wish we knew whether any of Zimmerman's blood was recovered from Trayvon's body/clothing or the surrounding area.


    He purportedly sought medical (none / 0) (#119)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:53:58 PM EST
    attention the following day.  Has he authorized release of his medical records?

    Check the ABC story (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:31:36 PM EST
    I happened to be watching ABC (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:41:10 PM EST
    and Diane Sawyer and I thought I heard her at the end of the segment it was four hours later.

    I didn't save it and the online version doesn't show her coming back for closing comments.

    Even assuming I dreamt that, he was cleaned up in the car by the paramedics before they went to the police station.

    As for him being calm, why wouldn't he be if he believed he had acted in self defense.

    There is also the witness who told police the night of the shooting he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman and Zimmerman cried out for help, and he went to his apt to call 911, and when he looked out the window, Trayvon was lying on the ground, apparently dead.

    This video doesn't tell us much. He wouldn't know whether his nose was broken until he went to the hospital the next day to check it out. It was his lawyer who said his nose was broken. The issue is really just whether Trayon punched him first which caused him to fear great bodily harm and he shot Trayvon in self-defense. I don't think we have enough facts yet to discount Zimmerman's version.

    A jury would be told under Florida law that doubts must be resolved in Zimmerman's favor.


    Hold up (3.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:49:59 PM EST
    I am referencing the story that he suffered injury on the back of his head and a broken nose.

    I am talking about the claim that the back of his head was banged repeatedly against a concrete sidewalk and was left bleeding.

    Excuse me, but the story your are telling makes no sense.

    Zimmerman did NOT go to the hospital that evening. Are you saying he was cleaned up in the back of a police car on a 5 minute ride? but he is the only person getting out of the back on the video.

    Look, I do not even think even if all that was true it was a defense, moral or legal, for Zimmerman.

    He was the provoker.

    But now it seems the entire story about receiving injuries is concocted.

    Also remember the claims that the initial police reports did not make mention of injuries.

    At least for me, what you are saying is not even remotely convincing.


    read it again (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:26:25 PM EST
    I said he went to the hospital the next day not that night.

    It's unknown who was the provoker at this time.

    If Trayvon punched him first, he was the provoker/aggressor.

    Following Trayvon may make him the initiator of the entire encounter, but it does not mean he was the aggressor as to the violence between them. Aggressor is defined under Florida law.

    I linked to the police report. It clearly says he was treated by Fire Rescue 38 in the back of the patrol car before going to the police station. It clearly says he was bleeding from the back of the head and the nose.

    Zimmerman has never said his nose was broken -- his lawyer said that.

    How about waiting until the facts are known before rushing to judgment? This is not the Nancy Grace show.


    Well (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:30:18 PM EST
    I just don't agree with much of what you just wrote but really don't see much point in belaboring the points.

    It's certainly a good thing that there is someone prepared to see things from Zimmerman;s perspective.

    I certainly am not that person.


    Your link to the police report takes me (3.67 / 3) (#71)
    by Anne on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:43:39 PM EST
    to a story about the JetBlue pilot.

    But, as BTD has pointed out, there is some question as to what was in the initial police report with respect to Zimmerman's alleged injuries - I wish I had a link to where I read that, but I don't.

    In an earlier comment, you referred to the witness who said Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, but there are other witnesses who reported something different - two women outside of whose condo this struggle was taking place.  Two women who also have said that the police attempted to tell them that wasn't what they had seen.

    Given the Sanford PD's questionable actions in other cases, such that the now-on-leave chief was brought in to clean things up, I am frankly surprised at your willingness to believe anything they've said, or what is in their reports.  

    The good news for Zimmerman is that the police department's incompetence is certainly going to accrue to his benefit.

    Wish that news was as good for young black men.


    Here is the (none / 0) (#82)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:13:19 PM EST
    Thank you (none / 0) (#98)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:34:09 PM EST
    It really doesn't give much sense of how bad Zimmerman's injuries were, just that he was bleeding. As you said, we don't really know what happened.

    FWIW (none / 0) (#110)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:23:39 PM EST
    even a slight superficial injury to the scalp bleeds like crazy, as does a smack to the nose, however it might have occurred.

    Disclaimer.  I am not NOT a Zimmerman supporter, just interested in the facts of what happened.


    There purportedly is a second, later (none / 0) (#121)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:57:46 PM EST
    Sanford P.D. report.  Has it been released?

    Ahem (1.00 / 1) (#128)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 02:35:03 AM EST
    How about waiting until the facts are known before rushing to judgment? This is not the Nancy Grace show.

    Love you, Jeralyn, but given the darkly comical degree of police misconduct here - for example, knowing his identity and even having his frickin' cell phone but calling him a John Doe for 48 hours until his parents fired a missing persons report (!!!) - I think there's a fair chance that there is a very real effort to prevent the facts from being known.

    Do you find this notion completely absurd? I mean, I'm the son of a defense attorney who always raised me to be skeptical of the mob mentality, but even he's taken aback by the PD's actions...


    Unfortunately for Zimmerman (none / 0) (#69)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:38:24 PM EST
    a picture or video showing him wounded would back up his claim that Trayvon was the initiator/aggressor.  But this ain't it.

    I would assume (none / 0) (#93)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:29:18 PM EST
    . . . under circumstances like this the paramedics who treated Zimmerman at the time would have made a detailed report. Although this case keeps getting stranger, so maybe not.

    There should be a detailed EMT form. (none / 0) (#120)
    by oculus on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:56:52 PM EST
    that's kind of what i was thinking as well. (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by cpinva on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 07:57:42 PM EST
    I guess he could have been cleaned up at the crime scene, maybe by the EMTs, but is that something that usually happens?

    according to the police report (at least the one that's been put out on the web), mr. zimmerman was attended to by emt's at the scene, before he was transported to the police station for additional questioning.

    however, with all that, given the description he gave to the police (see the report), he should still show obvious signs of physical damage, especially to his nose (he claims it was broken), and the back of his head (he claims mr. martin repeatedly bashed his head against the concrete sidewalk), none of this is evident in this video.

    the emt's cleaned him up, they didn't dry clean him. i would be interested to see the report filed by the attending emt's, for their descriptions of his wounds, vs what his "friend", and "attorney" have been publicly claiming he suffered.


    The entire scene seems too non-chalant (5.00 / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:08:19 PM EST
    There isn't the slightest bit of urgency in anyone's posture, movements, anything.  Zimmerman leans against the wall, seems unfazed, walks spryly and not like someone who was just accosted to the point of him HAVING to kill the person.

    And the broken nose, I don't know, I've had one, and it's friggin' hell for the first few hours, your whole head feels like it's the size of a basketball and throbbing, your eyes water, it's just not a ho-hum thing for most people.


    in fairness, (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by cpinva on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:15:20 PM EST
    some of what appears to be nonchalance on mr. zimmerman's part may well be due to shock. again, i'd like to see the emt's report.

    And the "broken nose" (none / 0) (#112)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:25:16 PM EST
    claim, as far as I know, is only from a friend who hasn't actually seen him since this happened, if I remember correctly.

    the video was taken long after the incident (none / 0) (#13)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:17:46 PM EST
    according to Diane Sawyer who released it on the news tonight. (I think she said four hours.)

    He was treated by firemen/paramedics in the back of the police car at the scene. Of course they aren't going to leave him bloody. See the first police report, page 3. He was bleeding from the back of the head and the nose. His lip was also swollen.

    This shows nothing in my view, one way or the other, because it wasn't right after the incident.


    That makes no sense actually (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:22:53 PM EST
    The reporting I saw said he refused to go to the hospital AT THE SCENE and chose to go to the station instead.

    Unless they left him go home, take a shower, change his clothes and clean himself up, then that version makes no sense.

    What was happening for those 4 hours.

    As for the police report, you knwo there have been various stories about WHEN the claims of injury were included.

    I think this video is quite significant.

    I don't accept your characterizations.

    But if you like, take the post down.


    The ABC storry (5.00 / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:30:38 PM EST
    accompanying the video does not confirm what you are saying here.

    See link.

    I stand by my shock.


    That tee-shirt is 'way too white (5.00 / 0) (#29)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:31:20 PM EST
    for anyone who had a bloody nose, much less a broken nose.  Nothing bleeds more.  

    And he claims to have had a gash in the back of his head that ought to have had stitches.  He has very little hair, so the video would show a bad gash.  Maybe there's a cut there, but that's all.

    If he was allowed to go home and change clothes, that seems odd police practice for someone in custody, even handcuffed.


    After another look (none / 0) (#31)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:34:18 PM EST
    I should say, of course, the tee-shirt is light gray.  It looked white at one point in the light.

    But blood would show up on light gray, and looking and looking and looking again:  Nope.


    And also, there are no apparent ... (none / 0) (#136)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 03:20:29 AM EST
    ... grass stains on his jacket or any sign that he was fighting for his life, as far as I can tell.

    I am not liking what I'm seeing here one bit. Zimmerman's alleged statements, I can understand, given that he was just involved in a homicide and he's trying to justify his actions. But I am absolutely flummoxed and floored by the apparent unprofessional conduct of top Sanford law enforcement officials.


    My daughter is a firefighter-Emt (5.00 / 0) (#115)
    by cpresley on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:39:48 PM EST
    The EMT-Paramedics would have packed a broken nose and bandaged a head wound. Yes they would wiped some blood from the face, but they would not have given him a bath and washed his clothes. I would also be curious why it would take 4 hours, it true, to transfer Zimmerman to the police station.

    Wouldn't the swelling be worse? (none / 0) (#19)
    by vicndabx on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:21:53 PM EST
    Bandages of some sort?

    Also (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:24:23 PM EST
    your links are to very self serving (to Zimmerman) stories.

    Do you have a link to an ABC story on when the video was taken?


    my links are to the police report (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:45:52 PM EST
    written right after the incident. The police don't say they cleaned him up, they say the Fire Rescue Unit 38 did -- the same unit that tried to revive Trayvon and couldn't. The other link was to the Orlando Sun Sentinel which has done the majority of the original reporting on the case. They aren't self-serving.

    I don't know what happened but Zimmerman deserves the presumption of innocence and I'm skeptical now that there is no time on the tape.

    Zimmerman never said he broke his nose, his lawyer said that. His lawyer might be wrong. I don't trust what either Zimmerman's lawyers or Martins' family's lawyers say. They are all biased.


    The police reports at this poiint (none / 0) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:52:58 PM EST
    are completely suspect and self serving FOR THEM.

    The Sentinel article is a self serving version provided by Zimmerman.

    I would love to hear from the Fire and Rescue Unit. Where are they in all this? The silence is deafening.

    And you still don;t explain why it would tsake 4 hours to take Zimmerman from the scene to the police station.

    Surely he did not receive 4 hours of medical treatment at the scene did he?


    I said (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:34:06 PM EST
    I thought I heard Diane Sawyer say it was four hours, but maybe I misheard that. But we do know from the police report he was cleaned up by the Fire Rescue unit before going to the station.

    The silence is not deafening. Investigations should take place in private -- trials take place in public -- and it's going to the grand jury which has secrecy rules. The interviews with the Fire Rescue people and others will come out in due time. There's no need for people to rush to judgment in the meantime.

    There was more of an investigation than has been made public, it was turned over to the State's Attorney and is now going to the grand jury and the feds are investigating as well.

    Everyone making public statements now has an agenda, from the Martins and their lawyers, to Zimmerman's lawyer to the gun control groups. None of their statements are facts.

    All I'm saying is this video doesn't disprove Zimmerman acted in self-defense. And it's wrong to rush to judgment.


    Agreed, BTD. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:10:25 PM EST
    At this point, I believe that the Sanford police and Seminole County state's attorney have very little credibility left, if any at all.

    Frankly, the federal investigation should be expanded beyond George Zimmerman to cover the local authorities' increasingly suspect actions in this entire matter, as well. I'm really starting to wonder whether the police might have written Zimmerman's story for him, rather than let him tell it to them straight that night.


    I'm with BTD on this one. (none / 0) (#89)
    by rise hillary rise on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:26:35 PM EST
    regardless as to whether this was 4 hours or 4 minutes after the encounter, the fact that the man doesn't have a hair out of place raises serious questions as to the veracity of his claim to having been beaten by the victim.

    and as far as the presumption of innocence, he sure didn't allow any to Trayvon, did he now?


    calling in a report (none / 0) (#130)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 02:52:06 AM EST
    of a suspicious person is not a crime. Perhaps it should be. It's one of the reasons I object to Neighborhood Watch programs and Homeland Security programs like "If You See Something Say Something "  and others telling people to phone the police or 911 when they see something suspicious.

    I have a one inch long (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:28:25 PM EST
    cat bite wound still healing on the back of my right hand. It was from a bite more than a month ago. I'm about the same skin color Zimmerman appears in the video. It was to the bone, and it's purple and raised, still. It was cleaned by a doctor within an hour, and I took a week of antibiotics as well as a tetanus shot.

    You could probably see the mark on my hand from across the street, still.


    I get your point but (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:51:57 PM EST
    seriously, cat bites are notorious for being very high in bacteria. If it is still purple you better get it looked at again and make sure it really was completely cleaned up. My friend almost lost her hand to a cat bite that was not treated correctly.

    I had a wound on the back of my head (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:33:48 PM EST
    and I stupidly didn't get stitches, after a hard fall back on a hard surface so similar to the alleged injury to Zimmerman.

    It immediately became quite a sight -- read, unsightly, and I'll skip details, but it quickly scabbed -- and then . . . well, a month later, I would expect that Zimmerman would have a bald spot there by now.  It took years for that to fill in for me.  So if ever he surfaces to public view. . . .


    Link doesn't work (none / 0) (#72)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:44:23 PM EST
    The link to the police report in your post takes me to a story on the JetBlue pilot. Could you please repost the link?

    Corrected link (none / 0) (#83)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:14:39 PM EST
    to police report -- the link I gave went to the jet blue pilot which got stuck in my cut and paste, sorry.

    And do you know (none / 0) (#108)
    by gyrfalcon on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:18:30 PM EST
    where he was before this video?  Is he wearing the same clothes as he was?  I don't know, but I don't think so.

    There was some sort of altercation, and he shows no signs of it at all in this video, which suggests he was cleaned up and maybe given new clothes before this video.

    We can't see the back of his head and he's clearly not in any physical distress, but if he was cleaned up and given new clothes (he was supposedly wearing a T-shirt, according to the 911 calls from witnesses), it's not immediately obvious that he didn't sustain injuries at least resembling those he supposedly claims he did.


    Must be (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:05:27 PM EST
    a photoshopped video. He was cleaned up with a leftist airbrush.


    For some reason (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:10:29 PM EST
    the video won't play for me but I'll take everybody's word here that it undercuts Zimmerman's case.

    Also (none / 0) (#14)
    by vicndabx on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:18:30 PM EST
    What's up with the overweight guy from the mugshot? What did he do P90X?

    Yeah (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:19:45 PM EST
    What's up with that?

    This guy's in good shape.

    Looks like he would be hard to take in a fight.


    The mug (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:24:16 PM EST
    shots might be old as he was arrested before IIRC.

    Trayvon was (5.00 / 2) (#38)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:46:46 PM EST
    6'3" and a football player. He wasn't in good shape? Zimmerman is like 5'9".

    6'3" (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Edger on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:53:02 PM EST
    and maybe 140 to 160 lbs. Like a walking coathanger.

    What was Zimmerman's weight again?


    6'3 and 160 (none / 0) (#92)
    by bocajeff on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:28:52 PM EST
    Isn't that bigger than the former middleweight champ Tommy "The Hit Man" Hearns?

    I don't know, but (1.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Edger on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 02:25:11 AM EST
    He was remarkably self-restrained in the face of a sniveling coward with batman delusions waving his pecker in his face on the street, wasn't he?

    Maybe he should have just taken the heater away from captain chickenhawk, tied a knot in the barrel, and shoved it up Zimm's caboose, you think?

    Or coldcocked him like he was flickin' a mosquito and stuffed him face first down into the nearest garbage can?

    It would have saved Zimmerhead from acting out his uncontrollable paranoid fantasies, and they'd both still be alive, if he hadn't been so reasonable.


    Hey (none / 0) (#44)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:54:40 PM EST
    I guess Trayvon could have beat him up.

    But 6'3" and 150 is not exactly imposing.

    I was jsut surprised to see how buff Zimmerman is. I expected a roly poly guy.

    Looks like he was an iron pumping guy.


    If a guy is following you (1.00 / 1) (#84)
    by MKS on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:15:25 PM EST
    like that and Trayvon turns and confronts Zimmerman, is not Trayvon just defending himself?   If you believe Zimmerman, Trayvon was quite good at defending himself.

    There's a big difference between ... (none / 0) (#95)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:30:41 PM EST
    ... someone who's 250 lbs. of mostly muscle, and a 250 lb. fat guy. Muscle mass is more dense than fat and takes up much less volume.

    I've been lifting weights for 30 years, and I'm six feet tall and 225 lbs with a 34-in. waist. I'm a big guy, but certainly not roly-poly by any stretch of the imagination. But hey, get back to me in 15 years when I'm 66 years old, 'cause I might be singing a very different tune then.



    6' foot, 160 pounds. (none / 0) (#116)
    by Addison on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:42:02 PM EST
    The police reports, which you've linked elsewhere in this thread, clearly have Trayvon Martin at 6', 160 pounds (which would be around 3 inches taller and ~20 pounds lighter than Zimmerman).

    The 6' 3" figure may be out there somewhere. But I've mostly seen it in comment sections. And never sourced to anything. Perhaps I am wrong?


    Close to 300 pounds at last count (none / 0) (#45)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:54:59 PM EST
    or 250 pounds by other accounts is a bulky guy at 5'9 -- but he looks in pretty good shape, just a bulky build.  A very powerful build, I know, because I have a friend who is built just like that.  A very round face that may make him look overweight, but he is in sports and is all muscle.

    Considering Martin's build, more than 100 pounds lighter and half a foot taller, it's like seeing a defensive line against a QB or wide receiver.  Ouch.


    I wonder if they took Zimmerman's blood? (none / 0) (#109)
    by Mitch Guthman on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 11:21:48 PM EST
    It might be very interesting to see what's in Zimmerman's blood.  Got real buff in a surprisingly short time.  Could be something there.

    Okay. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Ga6thDem on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:22:55 PM EST
    I finally got it to play and outside of the handcuffs, it looks so casual like the police aren't the least bit concerned about what happened. Maybe this is how the police act all the time? I certainly do not know whether this is normal actions or not. Why did they wait four hours before handcuffing him and taking him in?

    Even if he was allowed to take and shower and clean up, you would still see bruises and stuff.

    So he wnet to a hospital (none / 0) (#49)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 08:58:16 PM EST
    This is new information.

    Is it accurate information? Did the police not know this until today?

    Cuz (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:05:26 PM EST
    hospitals keep records.

    Exactly what we've been saying (5.00 / 3) (#60)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:23:28 PM EST
    for days here, that at least the hospital staff might have been better trained than the police.

    Yet for days, even weeks, every account has said that Zimmerman did not go to the hospital, most stating that it was his choice, one stating that he asked and that police refused to take him.

    The lack of records and the contradictory reports -- from sources, not just media, and even from Zimmerman's lawyer -- are just ridiculous.  I hardly think it outrageous of many of us to wonder who is best serving themselves by withholding the information and by so much of it contradictory.


    there is no support for (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:34:29 PM EST
    him going to a hospital that night. He reportedly sought medical treatment the next day, but it may or may not have been at a hospital as opposed to a medical center.

    Yes there will be records, and I'm sure the Sanford police has them and turned them over with the rest of its investigation to the State's attorney.

    These details are part of the ongoing investigation and not meant for public distribution now.

    Criminal investigations do not take place in public -- trials do. When the investigation is complete, people will have answers. Until then there are only leaks and unnamed sources and statements by people with a particular agenda.


    Even if the video was hours later or (none / 0) (#59)
    by ruffian on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:22:05 PM EST
    the next day, from the description of his story leaked the other night I would expect to see some damage to the back of his head. The pictures of the back of his head are clear enough to see that there is no damage. I realize that is just one bit of information in the whole story, but still....this does not look like a guy that was getting beaten up a few hours ago.

    Question on credibility (none / 0) (#67)
    by vicndabx on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:34:56 PM EST
    What type of police dept. allows video such as this to be "released?" Especially this many days into the story.

    Yes, I see a lot of CYA (none / 0) (#70)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:38:47 PM EST
    going on with all these leaks from the PD -- and/or internal dissension, worse by the day, as we now know that the head homicide cop called for charges for Zimmerman and was overruled.  

    This many days? (none / 0) (#73)
    by CoralGables on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:44:55 PM EST
    meaning too little or too many? It's been 31 days.

    Public Record (none / 0) (#74)
    by waldenpond on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 09:45:07 PM EST
    This is public record and anyone could have had it at any time.  These guys just happened to ask for it.

    Well this is disturbing (none / 0) (#79)
    by RickTaylor on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:01:34 PM EST
    The police report has Trayvon's name, city of birth, address, and phone number on it. So I guess he wasn't really a John Doe after all?


    that was always apparent (none / 0) (#88)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:25:48 PM EST
    from the police report, made avaiaable by the city of Sanford.

    The link you provide is to an opinion piece by someone clearly without any legal knowledge. It's one of the worst I've read on the case.


    Wow. I didn't see what I expected to see when (none / 0) (#100)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:36:42 PM EST
    learning this was the police video.  I expected to see someone with a bloody, broken nose and possibly other facial cuts or abrasions, cuts to the back of the head - but I didn't see any of that.  I saw someone who looked like he just got out of the shower wearing clean, pressed clothing.  He certainly didn't look like he had been in a fight or scuffle minutes or hours earlier.  And where's the grass stains on his clothing?  I read in the police reports he had grass and dirt stains on his jacket from the scuffle.  And I read he had a bloody, broken nose and that his head had been banged against the concrete.

    Sure diminishes the credibility of Zimmerman's spokespeople and the Sanford police department.  Bring on the Justice Department now.

    This video (none / 0) (#104)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:45:49 PM EST
    without a time frame does not mean anything. He was cleaned up by paramedics before going to the station. Please read through the comments.

    Please don't post unsourced allegations here. "What you have read" is not a substitute for facts.

    Comments stating Zimmerman is guilty will be deleted. He has not been charged, let alone convicted.

    I am about to close this thread, so if you have something more to say, do it now.


    I just read on the ABC website that Martin's (none / 0) (#103)
    by Angel on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:45:06 PM EST
    girlfriend, who was on the phone with him, has yet to be interviewed by the police department!

    She may have refused law enforcement (5.00 / 2) (#124)
    by oculus on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 12:06:33 AM EST
    request to interview me  She is under no obligation to cooperate.  

    Sad. Just sad (none / 0) (#106)
    by Towanda on Wed Mar 28, 2012 at 10:56:41 PM EST
    and incredibly bad investigative work, if true.

    Comments now closed (none / 0) (#135)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 03:15:34 AM EST

    On time of arrival (none / 0) (#137)
    by Jeralyn on Thu Mar 29, 2012 at 01:18:54 PM EST
    MSNBC also says the video was taken four hours after the incident.

    But now there's a time stamp in the video (none / 0) (#138)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Mar 30, 2012 at 12:51:46 AM EST
    that says it was taken at 7:52 pm, although the time doesn't seem to advance during it.

    Most news sources are now reporting it was taken 35 minutes after police arrived on the scene.