Saturday Open Thread: Rolling Stones at Barclays Center Tonight

The Rolling Stones are doing their soundcheck for tonight's performance at Barclay's Center in Brooklyn.

Don't forget you can watch the December 15 performance live on pay per view -- $40 for HD, $30 otherwise (at least on Xfinity/Comcast.)

The Stones have put an amazing quantity of songs from live shows, even full concerts, on You Tube. With one of those blue-ray/smart tv devices, you can easily watch You Tube videos on your big screen TV (as well as Netflix and Amazon Prime.) This is the one I got, (Sony $89), it's 1/3 the size of my old blue-ray player, the wi-fi is built in. [More....]

You can sign into your you tube account on the TV and the watchlist you made on the computer comes up, so you don't have to search all over for your videos. Amazon and Neflix have your watch list too, as well as full listings in case you feel like watching something new but don't want to log on to the computer.

Every cable service seems to be carrying the Stones on Pay per View. If you want to see them before then, the Stones have joined the Dec. 12 Hurricane Sandy benefit. It will be broadcast to almost 2 billion people worldwide in theatres, on TV and streaming on the Internet. Here's how to watch.

The Stones, Bruce Springsteen, Bon Jovi, The Who, Eric Clapton, Paul McCartney, Billy Joel and more, all in one show, and it's free (but please make a donation to the Sandy victims.)

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    I think you need a p-word. (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 07:50:38 PM EST

    I am sure he is absolutely gorgeous...... (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by vml68 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 07:51:10 PM EST
    but the links don't work for me... :-(!

    It takes me to a log in for what I am assuming is your place of employment, so I am not naming it here.

    Oh, drat - Jeralyn, can you delete my (none / 0) (#7)
    by Anne on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 08:03:49 PM EST
    original post?  Too much info in the links!



    I emailed Jeralyn directly for you (none / 0) (#9)
    by Peter G on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 08:51:05 PM EST
    to relay your request, Anne.

    Thanks, Peter - appreciate it! (none / 0) (#11)
    by Anne on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 09:15:46 PM EST
    Will work on flickr or photobucket.

    done Anne (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 08:52:29 PM EST
    Why don't you upload the photos to flickr or photobucket and give us the links!



    Thanks, Jeralyn! (none / 0) (#12)
    by Anne on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 09:16:58 PM EST
    It's been an emotional couple of days - still sinking in that the little guy is here!

    In which case (none / 0) (#26)
    by NYShooter on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 02:10:10 PM EST
     it's time for you to laugh your head off,


    If I'm wrong I'll come down and baby-sit Johnnie/Billy/ Bobby/Dimitri(?) all 9+ lbs for a whole weekend. (that's Friday & Saturday nights!)

    By Andy Borowitz/The New Yorker:


    The group, led by casino billionaire Sheldon Adelson, commissioned a new study showing that the cost of an average politician has soared exponentially over the past decade.

    Further quoting Sheldon Adelson: "Billionaires are providing employment for a group of seriously incompetent and marginal people; You raise taxes on us, and who's going to create those jobs? I really don't think people have thought this through."

    Continuing: "And let's say you buy a Senator like [South Carolina Senator] Jim DeMint and he decides to quit, "Good luck trying to get your money back."

    Last, buy certainly not least: Adding insult to injury, "the simple dream of someday owning a President is slipping out of reach."
    "People think a billion dollars buys you a President, but they're wrong," he says. "It barely gets you a lemon like Mitt Romney."


    Handgun found in frozen meat at... (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by desertswine on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 07:59:43 PM EST

    The supermarket employee wiped it clean before turning it in, making it difficult for police to find any identifying fingerprints.

    Adding to officers' challenge: The meat, which was sent to Albertsons from Swift Packing Plant in Greeley, Colo., was packaged more than a year ago.

    "The other part that's disturbing is the date on the package was 6.8.2011. I don't know how long meat stays well-frozen, but that was the date of the package he was opening," Morales said.

    My question about this is: How the h. old is the food we're eating?  Was Albertson's going to sell this stuff as fresh meat? It's over a year and half old for C's sake.

    Many right wingers hate Lincoln (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 11:34:06 PM EST
    I can't believe what I just read.  I thought I was totally immune to being surprised by the Right.

    I just finished reading a nice but simple review of the film Lincoln on the conservative website Townhall.   It is apparently a clearinghouse for mainstream conservative thought.

    The comments, almost all of them, to the Lincoln review were horrid beyond belief.  Lincoln is a tyrant, the worst President ever.  He unleashed the "black plague" of moochers.  He violated the constitution by not allowing the South to secede.

    Astonishing.  One cannot understimate the depravity of the far Right.

    Please, MKS, do yourself a favor (5.00 / 3) (#15)
    by NYShooter on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 08:50:19 AM EST
    and read this article

    By: John Kenneth Galbraith

    Muddling towards the next crisis

    You'll know all you need to know about the country we live in.

    You're welcome


    That's the son, not the father... (none / 0) (#21)
    by unitron on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 12:24:10 PM EST
    ...John is no longer with us, that's his son James.

    But speaking of John, I recommend his book on The Crash of '29.


    Damn!! (none / 0) (#23)
    by NYShooter on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 01:11:25 PM EST
    I know that!!

    and, still I wrote 'JOHN.'

    Thanks for the non-snark correction.


    Put it on my Facebook (none / 0) (#39)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 10:42:04 PM EST
    Not that those who really need to read it can.  Recovering from the dumbing down of years of Fox News is difficult to overcome.

    Thanks Tracy (none / 0) (#40)
    by NYShooter on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 11:15:20 PM EST
    He explains the demise of our once democratic country so calmly, methodically, and succinctly you'd think he was reciting a fine, 5-star recipe.

    We had to drive over 20 miles to see it (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 08:50:24 AM EST
    The guy who owns the Enterprise theaters refused to show it.

    Please move, for your own sake (5.00 / 4) (#18)
    by Dadler on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 09:59:48 AM EST
    Just get the hell out. Seriously.



    Come to Kazakhstan, land of opportunity (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by observed on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 11:39:09 AM EST
    Seriously, KZ is projected to overtake Eastern European countries in wealth/standard of living quite soon. In 20 years, it will be comparable to rich Western countries. I might have those figures a little off, but a Western diplomat was giving me the predictions just a few days ago.
    The resource wealth here is phenomenal.
    Can't say much for the weather, or various other aspects of life here.
    I just was trudging outside in "feels like -32C" weather. BRRRRRR
    On the other hand, Expo 2017 will be in Astana. The construction leading up to that will be unbelievable.

    Nice cultural opportunity this month: there's a flamenco troupe from Madrid playing in a music hall this month. I am not going to miss that. I LOVE Flamenco.


    Are people still (none / 0) (#51)
    by jondee on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:09:48 PM EST
    flashing those "Hell No, We Ain't Forgot!" bumperstickers with the Stars 'n Bars background down there?

    Oh, heck (none / 0) (#52)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:53:05 PM EST
    I still see plenty of pick-up trucks with the Stars 'n Bars stickers on their windows, and this is "up here" in Western Maryland.

    Saw one here in Jersey ... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:12:47 PM EST
    ... a few weeks ago, but (thankfully) they're pretty rare.

    Unfortunately, (none / 0) (#62)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:01:40 PM EST
    they're not all that rare here.  And we are far from "the Deep South."   :-(

    I lived in DC for a couple years ... (none / 0) (#65)
    by Yman on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:45:04 PM EST
    ... and MD for 8, but I guess western MD is a whole, different ballgame than Montgomery County.

    Oh, yes (none / 0) (#67)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 07:04:07 PM EST
    It is.  It definitely is.  It is a very, very "red" region in an otherwise "blue" state.  In fact, the locals here disparage those in Montgomery County as hopeless left-wingers.  (We don't, of course, but we are, shall I say, outliers in this area.)
    Not to say that I don't like the people here, not at all- they are very hard-working, very willing to help those in need, and very friendly on a one-to-one basis, and I like most of them very much.  They are not stereotypically "Appalachian" by any means (and I hate that stereotype, anyway, and don't think it means any more than any other stereotype).  
    But, yes, I see the Dixie flag here on trucks, and in fact, I have seen more than one "black-faced jockey" figurine on some front yards here (and I kid you not).  Yet there are a couple of black people, and mixed-race couples, in the area who seem to have been well accepted into the community.  
    Beats the he!! out of me how all of these apparently conflicting behaviors can exist in one population, but all I can say is, people are people.  The good, the bad, and the ugly.  You have to meet them, get to know them, and accept them (or not) individually.  

    As you probably know, Maryland ... (none / 0) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:37:47 PM EST
    ... was a state where slavery was legal prior to the outbreak of the U.S. Civil War, and sympathy for the Confederate cause was quite palpable throughout the conflict -- not so much in your part of the state, but in places like MBaltimore and Annapolis.

    Maryland actually convened a pro-secessionist convention in February 1861 (three weeks before President Lincoln took office) to consider its options, but the delegates adjourned at that time without acting. That pause gave the incoming administration sufficient time to consider actions to counter the pro-secessionists.

    After President Lincoln called upon the northern states to mobilize their state militias in response to the Confederate attack on Fort Sumter in April 1861, Maryland may well have followed Virginia out of the Union, had not Lincoln quickly moved to occupy Annapolis militarily.

    This in turn led Gov. Thomas Holliday Hicks to convene the General Assembly in Frederick in western Maryland, a region whose own militant pro-Union bias gave state legislators great pause when considering the introduced resolution of secession. They dithered on the issue for several months.

    Finally, when the resolution formally came to the floor of each respective chamber for a vote in August 1861, President Lincoln further encouraged Maryland state legislators to think twice about their prospective actions, by dispatching federal troops and Baltimore police to Frederick with explicitly public orders to arrest and detain any legislator who voted in favor of secession.

    Predictably, no action was taken, and Maryland formally remained in the Union.


    Donald, we are more than (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 07:17:49 PM EST
    aware of the history of this state.  
    We have lived here for close to 30 years, and our kids had to go through the whole Maryland History thing in school.  Not that it taught them everything.  ;-)
    Plus, Mr. Zorba is an absolute Civil War history fanatic, and knows a heck of a lot of history of that period.  
    This part of Maryland, in many ways, is closer to West Virginia, which, of course, did secede from Virginia after Virginia seceded from the Union.  And yes, Western Maryland, like West Virginia, was pro-Union.
    The politics and attitudes of Western Maryland are complex.  But there are still some old "Dixiecrat" types here, even though, I suspect, their ancestors in this area were Union supporters.  You won't get them to admit it now, though.    

    I'm a Civil War history buff, too. (none / 0) (#75)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 12:22:08 AM EST
    I think I inherited the buff gene from my father, who was also a Civil War buff. He died when I was three, and I never learned that about him until my own interest in the subject began to take hold at age twelve, and found his entire Civil War library, packed neatly away in my grandparents' attic in Pasadena. By the time I was 15, I had already read Bruce Catton's seminal three-volume work on the Union Army of the Potomac.

    In fact, I'm planning to head out your way next year in September, as they commemorate the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Antietam, the bloodiest single day in American history. I want to see it and be part of the moment.

    Your comments underscore what I hope some people would take away from this discussion, that the politics in the so-called "border states" such as Maryland and Missouri are actually pretty complex, and that the divisions caused by the issues of slavery and secesssion in these slaveholding pro-Union states probably divided populations and even families much more bitterly than what occurred in the rest of the country.

    I would hope that, with these next four years constituting the sesquicentennial of the Civil War, more Americans would take the time to really learn about the most traumatic and watershed period in U.S. history.



    Had to look (none / 0) (#19)
    by Repack Rider on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 10:48:45 AM EST
    ...based on your post.

    Wow.  Some serious hatred of freedom.


    Makes my fricken brain HURT (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 01:26:00 PM EST
    My cousin keeps putting on facebook that nobody is going to make her learn a foreign language.  I'm not exactly sure which language she feels is being forced upon her but I have a guess.

    Look cousin, you live in La Junta CO.  Your grandmother was Hispanic.  Everybody who matters knows this and we are all okay with that.  Everybody was fine with the whole deal before even you and I were born.  Are you just stupid?  Did you fall down really hard and bonk your nugget?  It's not even a foreign language in La Junta, it's just not English.  Stop watching Fox News, it is turning you into an idiot.

    You would think (5.00 / 2) (#53)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:59:43 PM EST
    that Americans would want to learn a second language.  But, maybe not.
    I know a lot of Europeans, and every single one of them speaks at least two languages, and most of them more.
    Americans need to wake the f*ck up and realize that this is a global economy, and if we want to remain competitive, we had best not only learn other languages, but also teach our kids about actual science (and by that I mean, not "Creationism," among other things), math, and critical thinking skills.  
    Either that, or this country is going to be left behind.

    I have long thought that, at a minimum, (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:45:28 PM EST
    U.S. schools should teach the two dominant languages of North America, English and Spanish.

    Students should be encouraged to expand their language mastery beyond these two languages. After all, it is a global economy.


    Learning a foreign language (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by NYShooter on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:24:23 AM EST
    is primarily a function of necessity. I'm no genius (well, I am, but that's another story...lol) and I spoke 5 languages when I immigrated to America years ago. I didn't speak them as a scholar would, but well enough to function. After the 2nd. WW we moved from Russia to Austria, with stints in Austria and Germany. Everebody was multi-lingual. In a city like Linz, or Salzburg, you couldn't go past two houses where both spoke the same language. Those countries, in central/ western Europe are mini-United Nations.

    Of course, once I assimilated into the U.S. I forget those other four (some would say I forgot all five)

    But, now, since we have a business where many of our employees speak only, or almost only, Spanish, both my son and I are learning that language. It also will be indispensable in the work I'm getting involved with in our prison system.

    Multiple languages? It's no secret, if you need it, you'll learn it.


    I agree, with this one caveat (none / 0) (#57)
    by Dadler on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:22:21 PM EST
    Europe is a relatively small continent with many official languages spoken. North America is the exact opposite. I do have to defend Americans in this respect: IMO, Europeans would not learn the languages they do if they lived in similar geographical circumstances, or if any one of their particular languages had been world dominant for a century plus. Nor do working class on down Europeans learn languages like the middle and upper classes.

    That said, I would have zero problem with making proficiency in a foreign language required for high school graduation.


    While I would (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by Zorba on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:44:05 PM EST
    not necessarily make proficiency in a foreign language a requirement for high school graduation (although I would strongly encourage it), I would certainly make proficiency in English, writing skills, math, basic (real) science, critical thinking skills, and civics and other citizenship skills a requirement.

    Honestly, Dadler, I don't believe our (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:47:56 PM EST
    refusal to learn other languages has to do with the size of our country. It has to do with the size of our collective ego, our ridiculous insistence on "American Exceptionalism", and a healthy dose of xenophobia.

    I agree with Dadler (none / 0) (#66)
    by DFLer on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 06:26:15 PM EST
    and the reason is not "American Exceptionalism" or anything, but simply a practical logistic:

    In Europe, one can travel 100 miles and encounter several different languages, so multi-speak is practical. In the US one can travel 3,000 miles and only encounter English. So the need to learn is not as intense.

    Young people that travel abroad are learning other languages.


    3000 miles? (5.00 / 3) (#70)
    by CoralGables on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 08:53:53 PM EST
    more like fifty feet where I live.

    but Cuba (none / 0) (#72)
    by Amiss on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 09:40:07 PM EST
    is only 90 miles from ya'll isn't it
    I took 3 years of a second language in H.S. here in N. Fla. but it was a " dead language" Latin.

    One "can" travel (none / 0) (#74)
    by DFLer on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 10:14:11 PM EST
    It's not a stretch. Go from the east coast to the west coast.....you can get by on just english...that's all i'm saying. of course there are many other languages spoken. I just think it's a reason americans tend to be uni-lingual, while euros have at least two.

    and americans living in latino areas would tend to have two...or at least spanglish, like in new mexico


    "xenophobia"" (none / 0) (#71)
    by Rojas on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 09:07:42 PM EST
    The reality is that the language of finance, diplomacy, engineering and law are what makes this thing spin.

    English as the language of diplomacy, finance, (5.00 / 2) (#73)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 10:07:42 PM EST
    etc. is a fairly recent development. The international language, the language of diplomacy, was French. The change from French to English occurred in my lifetime.

    And where do you think Americans got their "ugly American" reputation? Partly it came from our acting like everyone should speak English no matter what country we were visiting.

    And even though many in the world learn English it is to our disadvantage that we learn only English. Speaking another language provides a knowledge of another culture that one just cannot get without language.

    One of our big problems after Sept. 11 was our lack of Americans who spoke Arabic. And it would be to our advantage to have diplomats and business people who speak Mandarin when we are dealing with the Chinese, and Russian speakers when doing business in Russia, and you see where this is going.

    And do you really believe that Americans who indignantly rise up against the idea that we should teach our children a language other than English are not coming from a place of xenophobia? Please.


    And yet (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by NYShooter on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 02:56:06 AM EST
    we fire interpreters who were discovered to be gay

    "....Sept. 11 was our lack of Americans who spoke Arabic"

    " Military Dismisses 6 Gay Arabic Linguists Amid Shortage Of Translators".......LINK


    What really gets to me (none / 0) (#79)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 07:56:16 AM EST
    Is that the language is part of HER heritage.  I think she might be ashamed of that, and it makes me sad but I know that it was something her dad struggled with at times and he was a kind soul and racist people really hurt him.

    He returned to La Junta after marrying my aunt to work for BNSF with his brothers, their families became VERY middle class.  But these people with their language that my cousin looks down on, they are her people too.


    Yup. (none / 0) (#81)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 02:51:28 PM EST
    A baby picture, at last... (5.00 / 6) (#49)
    by Anne on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:00:21 PM EST
    Does he look content, or what?

    This was taken Saturday afternoon in the hospital, so about 15 hours after birth.

    Everybody's home now and doing well - a little sleep-deprived, since he's up about every two hours to nurse, but they'll be fine.

    Still hard to believe he's really here, but sure glad he is!

    Wow, that's a happy baby (5.00 / 3) (#50)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 02:02:20 PM EST
    awww..... (5.00 / 3) (#54)
    by sj on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 03:05:19 PM EST
    Thank you for sharing this happy event with us (5.00 / 4) (#55)
    by MO Blue on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 03:07:52 PM EST
    Yes, the baby looks truly content.

    Oooh, what a sweet baby. (5.00 / 5) (#58)
    by caseyOR on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 04:42:45 PM EST
    Thanks for sharing the pic, Anne. He is definitely a keeper.

    He is so handsome! (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by Amiss on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:15:55 PM EST
    Glad he,  Mom a d Grands are all doing well.

    Well, that picture made me smile... (5.00 / 3) (#69)
    by desertswine on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 08:46:20 PM EST

    What a handsome kid! (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by NYShooter on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 03:25:40 AM EST
    he looks just like me



    Donald are you watching the (none / 0) (#1)
    by fishcamp on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 05:31:33 PM EST
    Pipeline Masters out on the North Shore?  I am and they have some ten footers.  I subscribe to Surfline.com but I just Googled Pipe Masters and there it was.  Wish I were over there with my   "big wave riding buddies from the outer islands"  That was a line I used in Island Magic a surfing film I made in the 70's.  Aloha

    We drove up there this morning. (none / 0) (#2)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 07:34:40 PM EST
    I had a work-related meeting this morning up in Kahuku, which is literally the northernmost point of the island, about 60 miles from our house. Then we drove back down the windward side of Oahu, had lunch at Pinky's Bar & Grill over in Kailua (about two blocks from the Obamas' "Winter White House," where they'll be in two weeks), and just got back home an hour ago.

    There's just too much traffic for those narrow roads when the big December surf events take place, so we tend to avoid going up there this time of year. It was only a coincidence that I had to be there today.

    I'm going with friends to the men's college basketball game between UH and Pepperdine tonight. The Spouse is baking cookies other and treats in the kitchen tonight for the Christmas fair fundraiser this week at her middle school, where she's an English teacher.



    well anyway the Pipe Masters (none / 0) (#8)
    by fishcamp on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 08:19:30 PM EST
    will be online tomorrow and possibly Monday too.  I know what you mean about the Kam Hwy.  Narrow and dangerous with no place to park and cars get broken into all the time.  It is fun to be right there at Banzai Pipeline because the surf is so close to shore.  If you go out at Ala Moana we can all watch you surf.  We could also watch you at Waimea Bay too if you're crazy enough to go out there.

    I know my limits with surfing, and ... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 11:45:19 PM EST
    ... I adhere to them rigorously. I freely admit that the huge winter swells for which Oahu's North Shore is world renowned are generally well beyond my skill level and capabilities. That's not to say that I won't ever surf at Pipeline, just that I won't paddle out if the surf's bigger than ten feet.

    Windward Oahu (none / 0) (#14)
    by MKS on Sat Dec 08, 2012 at 11:35:41 PM EST
    is probably the nicest place on earth.

    We will move to Oahu someday, the sooner the better.


    Well, no doubt, it's gorgeous. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 11:58:09 PM EST
    But it also rains an awful lot along Oahu's windward side, especially in the winter, so you better be prepared to get used to it if ever you do relocate there.

    Both Kahana Valley north of Kaneohe and Maunawili Valley in Kailua receive average yearly rainfall totals of about 200 inches, which stand in sharp contrast to the official NOAA / NWS weather station at Honolulu International Airport, which averages less than one-tenth of that amount annually.


    Good info (none / 0) (#45)
    by MKS on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 12:40:01 AM EST
    What about Island fever?  That happen to you.  That is one thing hard to judge if you will experience it, until you experience it.....

    It's all in one's mind. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 05:46:38 AM EST
    Living on an island of only 593 sq. miles does tend to shrink your immediate world accordingly.

    It's exactly 119 miles around the Koolau mountain range from my house in east Honolulu through downtown, Pearl Harbor, and Wahiawa to Kahuku, then back down along the windward coast to Kaneohe, Kailua and Waimanalo around Makapuu Point and back to my house.

    The towns of Kahuku on the north shore and Makaha on Oahu's leeward coast are the farthest points one can drive from my place, and both are about 60 miles one way.

    You will find that if you live here long enough that your perspective about distances shrinks accordingly, in direct proportion to the amount of actual travel you can do on the island. For example, while I would never even think twice about driving 50 miles on the U.S. mainland, that same distance practically takes you from one end of Oahu to the other. Thus, that 50-mile drive actually seems to be farther than it really is. It's sort of hard to explain, but does that make any sense?

    I think that this unconscious adjustment to my perspective of distance is my own psyche's way of coping with living in the relatively confined area of an island.



    A Festivus pole made of beer cans ... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 09:09:10 AM EST
    ... is erected next to a Nativity scene in Deerfield Beach, FL.

    Might make George Costanza happy, but judging by the comments, conservatives are none too happy.

    Well, no doubt (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Zorba on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 12:45:29 PM EST
    their heads would explode if someone put up a Bendera (red, black and green flag) for Kwanzaa plus a Nguzo Saba Poster depicting the Seven Principles of Kwanzaa.
    Then, they need a large Menorah for Hanukkah.
    Let's see, no Muslim holy days in December that I know of, but the Buddhist Bodhi Day was yesterday, so I think a large Dharma Wheel would also be appropriate.

    Zorba (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Politalkix on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 02:11:42 PM EST
    I am not a conservative, however I find the action of the person who put up the festival beer can pole to be quite petty.
    If someone really wants to celebrate the religion they believe or atheism, it may be worthwhile to celebrate it on days or months their most important celebrations actually occur. For example, the most important Buddhist holidays fall in April and May when Buddhists celebrate the new year or the birth of Buddha. For Muslims, Ramadan or Eid celebrations occur much earlier in the year, not In December.
    The purpose of celebration should be for reasons of love, not to stick a finger in eyes of people who believe something else than what you believe by trivializing their beliefs (festivus or flying sphaggeti monster do that). This is my opinion.

    Would you feel the same (5.00 / 3) (#28)
    by Zorba on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 02:26:42 PM EST
    about a Menorah for Hannakuh going up near the Nativity Scene?  Hannakuh is celebrated December 8-16 this year.  Granted, not the most important Jewish holiday, but even the White House is having a National Menorah Lighting today.
    And while Kwanzaa is not actually a religious holiday, I know several African-Americans who celebrate it (December 26-January 1), and it is very meaningful to them.
    I suspect that many, if not most, of the people on that website would also object to a Menorah or a Bendera being displayed.
    If you allow any kind of religious or semi-religious displays on public property, then you should be prepared to allow more than just a Nativity Scene.
    So I have to disagree with you.  Let them all in (even the tongue-in-cheek displays), or keep them all out.

    No (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Politalkix on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 03:02:33 PM EST
    I would not feel the same about Hannukah or Kwanzaa. I wonder if people from every religious community (and also athesists) can be asked to provide a name of one (and only one)festival that they would like to celebrate during the course of the year and allowed the freedom to decorate the place accordingly.
    I am also wondering how our society has degenerated to such an extent where a nativity scene has started to offend atheists and the sight of a Menorah or Bendera has started to offend people who want to put up a nativity scene. This is truly tragic. I believe the remedy lies not in taking recourse through legal action but in improving our tolerance for each other with different beliefs.  

    Politalkix... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by NYShooter on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 03:36:55 PM EST

    You're usually pretty bright in expressing your points of view, although, admittedly, you sometimes invite some "overenthusiastic" reactions. But, this topic isn't even close. It falls under the, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it," or the one I like even better, "don't go looking for trouble, it'll find you."

    The separation of Church and State is so fundamental that I don't even think of it as a "Religious" topic. It belongs right up there with the 1'st Amendment, Freedom of Speech.

    People have a million ways to express their religious feelings, without asking the Government to take an active role in the expression of those feelings. Any private entity could host the type of display in question. It shouldn't be difficult at all, with millions of companies out there, to find some that would host it. Check Papa John`s, for instance. But, even private companies have taken a more cautious stand in expressing religious customs; "Happy Holidays, instead of "Merry Christmas," for instance. Granted, their "sensitivity" is more related to their cash register than their moral feelings, but, in any event, they recognize that when you get into something so deeply personal you're just bound to offend someone.

    Freedom of religion means you can worship any way you like; freedom from religion means you shouldn't be compelled to pay (through your tax dollars) for beliefs contrary to yours.

    Of all the problems in the world you have to dig pretty far down to make this non-issue into something contentious.


    Whose holiday is it, anyway? (none / 0) (#36)
    by unitron on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 06:06:50 PM EST
    "But, even private companies have taken a more cautious stand in expressing religious customs; "Happy Holidays, instead of "Merry Christmas," for instance."

    Supposedly they started doing that so as not to offend non-Christians, but it started about the same time the conservative Christians got all possive about Christmas and didn't want to share it with people who were into it for Winter Solstice, Santa Claus, and generic Peace on Earth, completely oblivious to the fact that it started out as a Winter Solstice celebration and was co-opted by The Church.

    So the conservative Christians want to have it both ways--businesses aren't supposed to exploit the holiday for profit, but they'd better not dare not say "Merry Christmas" this time of year, or ignore the holiday altogether.


    I would love it (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by Zorba on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 03:39:07 PM EST
    if everyone was tolerant and understanding of everyone else's beliefs, or lack thereof.  However, I'm a long-time hardcore civil libertarian, and my true preference is that there would be absolute separation of church and state, with no religious displays whatsoever on public property, no Ten Commandments posted in any courtrooms, no "swearing on the Bible" or the Koran, or whatever, when you are a witness in a courtroom- just your "affirmation" that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, etc.
    So, if you really want to have any religious displays on public property, as I said, you should allow all religions, or lack of religions, equally.  Or allow none.

    Our annual "Honolulu City Lights" ... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 12:18:06 AM EST
    ... festival has long allowed for multi-ethnic and multi-religious displays of faith (and even lack thereof), which is much in line with our city's multi-cultural society. It's a fun, season-long celebration of diversity, tolerance and 'Ohana ("family") in the finest and most liberal sense of the term hanai.

    The (5.00 / 4) (#33)
    by lentinel on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 03:41:46 PM EST
    sole question for me is whether or not the display is on public property - that is property that is maintained by our tax money.
    I don't want it used to promote any religion, or religion itself. It is not the State's business. The State's business is in collecting garbage, providing good public transportation, providing adequate police protection for citizens, providing good public schools and the like.

    I have no problem with religious displays on property owned by the religion involved. I often find it to be moving. A creche on Church property - great.

    People putting any kind of display on their own property, or on their window sills - great.

    But when the State gets involved it makes me nervous and it makes me angry.


    I believe the remedy lies ... (5.00 / 4) (#34)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 04:07:10 PM EST
    ... in putting your religious displays on private, rather than public property.  Society hasn't "degenerated" ... people are simply tired of using public property and resources to promote a religion.

    Put your religious displays on private property and the problem is solved.


    Didn't (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by NYShooter on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 04:14:35 PM EST
    I just say that?


    BTW, I posted some comments down at the Zimmerman thread. It involved you, so why not take a peek and see if you'd be interested in a dialogue with some of "Z" sympathetic commenters. It's not working the way its been going so why not "reach out" and see if an intelligent discussion is even possible.


    It does seem like an obvious answer (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 06:34:21 PM EST
    ... doesn't it?

    In the alternative, you can't have government allowing displays for some religions and not others, regardless of the purpose of the person creating the display.  Don't like Festivus or the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

    Too bad ... so sad.

    BTW - I saw your comments on the other thread - thanks.  I generally don't engage on those threads much (and the Forum at all) for a number of reasons - plus I don't tow the company line, so I'm limited on those threads.

    Oh, well.

    Good luck!


    All good (none / 0) (#24)
    by Yman on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 01:16:18 PM EST
    I also liked the idea of a Flying Spaghetti Monster, but it was ruled out in favor of a much simpler/easier to build Festivus pole.

    I would get some kids a bunch of (none / 0) (#25)
    by Zorba on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 01:25:56 PM EST
    white Play-Do and let them make skinny spaghetti, then let it dry and put it in a very large, sturdy bowl, and display that.  Voila!  Pasta for the Pastafarians!
    On the other hand, I'm not sure if the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster celebrates any particular holidays.  So perhaps a permanent Pasta Bowl on display year-round would be appropriate.   ;-)

    Seinfeld was mocking the secular, commercial (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Peter G on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 02:41:37 PM EST
    focus of modern American "Christmas" celebrations, wasn't he, along with the idea that everyone (who counts) is a Christian? A Nativity scene (creche) is the opposite of secular, so the Festivus pole in this context seems to me like a simple (and simple-minded) mockery of someone else's religion. I can't support that. (It's not even like the Flying Spaghetti Monster, which was designed as a mocking criticism of imposing creationism (in the guise of make-believe "intelligent design" theory) in the Kansas public schools science curriculum). If erection of the Nativity display is being given a privileged or exclusive position by the state or local government over other, comparable First-Amendment protected messages, and/or permitted to be presented in such a way as to imply official endorsement (on the county courthouse lawn, for example), then you may well have an Establishment Clause violation.  But the facts you would need to figure that out are missing from the linked news story.

    Except the artricle notes ... (none / 0) (#80)
    by Yman on Tue Dec 11, 2012 at 02:40:12 PM EST
    ... that he erected the pole after receiving permission from the city, so I presumed it was city property.  I dug a little further, and it turns out the Nativity scene was on the front lawn of a city firehouse.

    I don't really know if it was in keeping with the same intent as Seinfeld, although it seems consistent with your interpretation that everyone (who counts) is a Christian.


    saw the stones in concert (none / 0) (#38)
    by Amiss on Sun Dec 09, 2012 at 10:32:02 PM EST
    For their "Steel Wheels" tour at Clemson, S.C. All I can say is "awesome things still happen in the south".

    Any way to send a PM to a TL member? (none / 0) (#44)
    by WentAway on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 12:20:02 AM EST
    Thank you.

    RIP, Jenni Rivera (1969-2012). (none / 0) (#46)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Dec 10, 2012 at 12:48:37 AM EST
    Mexico's Ministry of Transportation and Communications has confirmed that Jenni Rivera, the popular Latina singer and recording artist from Long Beach, CA whose appeal transcended both sides of the U.S.-Mexican border, was among the seven victims aboard a Mexico City-bound Learjet that crashed early Sunday morning in the rugged terrain of northeastern Mexico shortly after takeoff from Monterrey, where she had just finished a concert only a few hours earlier. There were no survivors.