Monday Open Thread

It's back to work for me, and I think BTD may be busy with election stuff. Here's an open thread, all topics welcome.

BTD - I'll be sitting in for David Waldman, Kagro in the Morning. today at 9. I hear there is an election soon. We'll talk about it and Daily Kos Radio's planned Election Night coverage. Tune in.

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    I made the mistake of watching (5.00 / 3) (#1)
    by mogal on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:37:49 AM EST
    Morning Joe this AM and was appalled when Joe joked and laughed about the voting lines in Florida. He kept repeating Benghazi-Benghzi as the story was reported. I would expect this from Rush but not MSNBC.  


    John McCain finished himself off in this (5.00 / 3) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 07:52:21 AM EST
    house over Benghazi on morning Joe.  I figured getting McCain on fired them up.  My husband is an Independent, he would have voted for McCain over Obama if he had been the better candidate but he wasn't.  McCain did steal my husband's heart when during the Bush administration he originally came out on fire over the violation of Geneva Conventions.  Later he cooled and that really broke my husbands heart, but during the Presidential race my husband still gave him a shot at earning his vote and that didn't happen.

    Today McCain is yammering about active duty military up in arms over his Benghazi thing, and my husband said not him or anyone he works with.  McCain said the same about veterans too but we can't find any of them.  During the Bush Presidency a total of 38 people were killed in attacks upon U.S. embassies and consulates.  Embassy work is dangerous work, and I guess everyone who died during the Bush administration....their families did not deserve the investigation that the Benghazi families do according to McCain.

    He was also saying something trying to suggest infighting between agencies.  I have never known the various agencies involved to work together so seamlessly.  Some things have become so seamless it is disturbing.  Take the War on Drugs joining the War on Terror, and that investigation teams in the war zone contain three military personnel along with a member of the FBI and the CIA and I don't see this hint around at infighting all that credible.  Our most important General in recent times heads the CIA and the guy who was the head of the CIA runs the Defense Department, it's pretty incestuous but also enables the various agencies to work together more easily and competently, and John McCain wants to sell Bush admnistration style incompetence that there is a bunch of infighting and the branches couldn't work the Benghazi situation on the ground together?  I call bull


    McCain is shameless, but he's (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by observed on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 08:13:44 AM EST
    canny. For instance, there was the Senate candidate he un-endorsed, claiming he was waiting for an apology. Later, McCain claimed the guy had made an acceptable apology. The point is, it didn't matter what the guy said. McCain used the off again on again endorsement to legitimatize the guy.
    (not that it worked).
    The fact McCain is going ape over something which is obviously a manufactured crisis just shows the desperation of the republicans, in general.

    I had lost (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by indy in sc on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 11:42:23 AM EST
    most respect for John McCain with the last election cycle given his abandonment of most of his former positions in that election and his selection of Palin as VP, but this morning probably swept away what was left.

    I can't believe (or sadly I can believe) that no one on the set of Morning Joe called McCain on his brazenness this morning.  He actually said that he had no information other than what has been made public about the whole matter and yet he called for hearings similar to "watergate" and "iran-contra" knowing full well that putting this in the same context as those shameful periods in our history would give the appearance of criminal activity on the part of the administration--all this on the basis of NO FACTS.  He knows those words illicit visceral reactions.  How do you throw out such casual accusations with nothing to back you up?  You are alleging treasonous action by several different departments and you don't even get any push back about it?  


    Nothing Like a Shameless Republican... (none / 0) (#32)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:02:32 PM EST
    ...using Watergate and Iran-Contra to try and help manufacture a non-existent scandal against democrats.

    McCain is a pathetic idiot who is followed by this rumor I keep hearing that he once had principles.  Like Sasquatch the only people who seem to believe that are nutz and their proof is always very blurry or just made-up.

    He folded like a cheap suit on torture, and what is worse, I remember his own party saying his opinion was effected because he was tortured. Anyone who sides with people who continually throw them under the bus isn't a man of any character IMO.


    John McCain's principles, (none / 0) (#38)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:33:46 PM EST
    according to Jon Stewart: "McCain trounced Hayworth  by standing strong on principle.  Mainly the principle that he would like to die in his senate seat."   In the Republican primary of 2010, McCain refused to be out-right winged by his opponent, former Congressman, a tea party guy,  J. D. Hayworth.

    Of course, there was also McCain's  last stand against DADT when after the vote he continued his ugly rant on the senate floor. But, perhaps McCain will come to regret that vote as he says he now regrets his 1983 vote against a federal holiday honoring Dr. Martin Luther King.  Such revelations, apparently, are to be admired for being maverkicy.


    No wonder McCain and Lieberman (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Anne on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:05:11 PM EST
    have such an affinity for each other...

    What stands out for me is the overbearing sense of entitlement these long-timers have and how it isn't about serving their citizen constituents, but about serving - first and foremost - themselves.

    Romney fits right in, but in an exponentially worse way - at least in my opinion; he doesn't even really disguise his grasping need to be installed in the highest office in the land, and the ease with which he changes his positions makes me think he truly believes the electorate is too stupid to notice - or won't care.

    I can't wait for this to be over, but what worries me is that it's going to be some time for all the votes to be counted and election certified.  And that's going to allow for plenty of opportunities to mess with the vote.

    I hope it's not close enough for the problem states/precincts to be a factor.

    Which kind of circles back to it being time for the National Popular Vote. It's really time to make every vote count, with every vote being equally important; I'm tired of every presidential election being reduced to how people vote in Ohio or Nevada or any of the other so-called "toss-up" states.

    If every vote counted, imagine what that would do to voter participation rates, eh?


    It was refreshing to see Repub (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 09:42:45 AM EST
    former Governor Todd-Whitman say that Florida had voting conditions similar to 3rd world elections that she monitored and that it was shameful (although she denied some grand GOP plot to disenfranchise). Still, she struck the right note about what happened.

    Fist fights broke (none / 0) (#33)
    by Amiss on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:09:24 PM EST
    out here in Jacksonville where we had early voting at the libraries because they were not letting some folks vote.
    Rick Scott is doing everything he can, but the DNC already had lawyers in place and are doing a good job.

    On the cr*p happening today in Florida (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Towanda on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:17:11 PM EST
    aka "our national embarrassment," see the Election Law Blog report just posted.

    It's a site worth bookmarking.  I did so weeks ago, and it has been busy ever since -- but especially yesterday, with posts every couple of minutes on voter suppression, intimidation, etc., in Florida, Ohio, and elsewhere.

    My election prediction, from Wisconsin with all of the above and dirty tricks happening here as well to subvert the democratic process, is that the Election Law Blog will be even busier in weeks ahead.  Many weeks ahead.


    I just bookmarked it (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by shoephone on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:54:39 PM EST
    Thanks, it really is a great site.

    But we need photos of the intimidating instigators.


    thanks (5.00 / 2) (#72)
    by Amiss on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:44:01 PM EST
    and bookmarked as well. We had voters protesting in some precincts today about the refusals and folks were still voting until 1am this morning. I have never seen crap like this in my life and I was born and raised in Florida.
    I thought the Bushes/Cheney/Rove were bad but they cant hold a candle to the Romney/Rick Scott combination.

    Every Legal vote should be counted.. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Jim in St Louis on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:06:19 PM EST
    ...no question about that.  Nice to see people actually fight for that.

    Oy (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by sj on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:13:52 PM EST
    AND every person who is capable of casting (5.00 / 5) (#45)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:15:49 PM EST
    a legal vote should not be discouraged from voting by restricting access or hours to casting a ballot.

    Scott is shameless and a sorry excuse for a (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:21:20 PM EST
    human being.  

    Rick Scott defeated an excellent (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by KeysDan on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:56:15 PM EST
    candidate, Alex Sink, in a close, tea party-flavored election.  Scott, like Romney, touted his business experience to the electorate (this was all he had to offer, not having ever held any public office).

    That business experience was anchored as chief executive of Columbia/HCA hospitals.  However, overlooked was his forced resignation in 1997 after FBI raids of headquarters in El Paso and dozens of doctors' offices.  Columbia/HCA  subsequently admitted to 14 felonies and agreed to pay the federal government $600 million.  In all, counting civil suits and fines, Columbia/HCA spent more than $2 billion, a record that has not yet been broken.

    The felonies included such things as over-charging on Medicare and Medicaid, fraudulent Medicare billings, kick-backs, illegal deals with home care agencies, and filing false reports.   All great credentials for a Florida governor, with so many of senior citizens.  But, then, Rick Scott should know fraud when he sees it--even if voter fraud is more difficult to see, since it happens rarely, if ever.


    Voter fraud may be rare... (none / 0) (#69)
    by unitron on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:31:43 PM EST
    ...but shenanigans by the people running the elections probably aren't.

    Google "ray lemme clint curtis yang enterprises"


    I dont see how (none / 0) (#73)
    by Amiss on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:59:27 PM EST
    he won or how anyone could vote for him with a straight face. Good news DNCs says approx. 4.5 million have cast early ballots as of noon today and that most early voters are Democrats because they actually have to work and have less time to stand in line. Makes sense hope they are right.

    Chrysler-Fiat CEO's message to team Mitt (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Menanna on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 07:07:32 AM EST
    "Jeep assembly lines will remain in operation in the United States and will constitute the backbone of the brand.
    It is inaccurate to suggest anything different.
    Sergio Marchionne"

    Full message here: http://goo.gl/wmgwP

    Good for you Sergio!

    Refreshing when somone in his capacity stands (none / 0) (#4)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 08:12:34 AM EST
    up and tells the truth to the political lies.

    Check out copy and paste from PPP tweet (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 10:07:29 AM EST
    PublicPolicyPolling ‏@ppppolls

    Our final Colorado poll finds Barack Obama leading Mitt Romney 52/46.

    That's what I'm talking about....

    Stunning (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 10:31:59 AM EST
    I just changed my prediction to (none / 0) (#23)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 11:14:25 AM EST
    Obama - 303
    Romney - 235

    based on the latest polling on CO from PPP. Yeah!


    Rolling a certain # on a dice... (none / 0) (#28)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 11:46:57 AM EST
    ... is a 1 in 6 proposition. As Romney's chances of winning each of the 5 swing states he needs to win (CO, IA, WI, VA, OH) are, according to Nate, about those odds, making a clean sweep of these 5 states will be like Romney rolling a yahtzee on his first roll.

    I'm a Nate devotee. The trolls on his site have (none / 0) (#30)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:00:15 PM EST
    really slackened off the past day or so.  I think they're 'speechless' right now.  I'm just hoping the probability gods are on our side tomorrow and the next few days as this gets fought out.  Because a fight is what we'll have if it's close.  

    Weren't you at 272-268 just yesterday? (none / 0) (#48)
    by CoralGables on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:27:15 PM EST
    By tonight you may be at 332 :)

    Ha! Actually I was at 274/264 after I changed (none / 0) (#49)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:35:44 PM EST
    NH later last night.  Then I asked MileHi about CO, wasn't convinced O was going to take it, slept overnight on it, then after Magster gave the PPP update this morning I added CO to my Obama column.  

    That is absolutely my last prediction.  I'll be on a plane and traveling tomorrow so I won't be online until late.  


    Lucky you! (none / 0) (#53)
    by nycstray on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 02:06:19 PM EST
    I'll be on a plane and traveling tomorrow so I won't be online until late

    That might be the nicest place to be tomorrow!  :D


    It will probably save my sanity! (none / 0) (#57)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 02:30:24 PM EST

    OMG. SE Cupp just asked Brokaw... (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 02:12:03 PM EST
    ... "are things going to be so difficult for Obama because of people's impatience with him not getting things done in his first term, that there's a part of him that would be glad if he lost??"

    In all the dumb questions I've heard asked on cable TV, this is definitely in the running for the stupidest?

    The Permanent Militarization of America (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Mr Natural on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 03:37:02 PM EST
    Uncritical support of all things martial is quickly becoming the new normal for our youth. Hardly any of my students at the Naval Academy remember a time when their nation wasn't at war. Almost all think it ordinary to hear of drone strikes in Yemen or Taliban attacks in Afghanistan. The recent revelation of counterterrorism bases in Africa elicits no surprise in them, nor do the military ceremonies that are now regular features at sporting events. That which is left unexamined eventually becomes invisible, and as a result, few Americans today are giving sufficient consideration to the full range of violent activities the government undertakes in their names.

    Occupy Sandy (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 03:44:11 PM EST
    I've been following the Occupy Sandy Relief NYC group on Facebook today. They really seem to be all over the place doing good things. A good cause if your money is bored all by itself - send it their way.

    Christie gets his hug from The Boss! (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by shoephone on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:00:37 PM EST
    He was so happy he cried.

    I see more GOP heads exploding...

    Two Christie Bromances in a week! (none / 0) (#66)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:22:32 PM EST
    Obviously BTD is making a latte (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 08:17:55 AM EST
    On the air

    LOL (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 08:22:28 AM EST
    Funny bit about sending Clinton to PA to listen to Ed Rendell's blather. Sometimes being a surrogate is a dirty job.

    BTD is at an undisclosed location (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 09:00:22 AM EST
    Where the latte machine works fine :)

    Is the noise really that noticeable? (none / 0) (#56)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 02:27:40 PM EST
    Then just wait until he takes over the late afternoon drive-time slot, and starts mixing margaritas.

    Wednesday Morning the blender will fire up? (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:49:12 PM EST
    Interesting piece at McClatchy re e-voting (none / 0) (#8)
    by DFLer on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 08:38:40 AM EST
    Reading more about Benghazi (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 09:25:26 AM EST
    The big issue seems to be that we didn't have a quick reaction force close enough for the comfort of some.  Okay, that may be true and now the Pentagon will use this to have such a force in Sicily, and Djibouti (who has been splicing their own together) will get full funding and lots of love and will never have to splice anything again.  Huge win for the big green machine.

    Truth though, the CIA had everyone out and to safety and had reported Amb Stevens missing in 50 minutes.  It is regrettable that they either didn't know where the panic room was, or they couldn't get into it.  Delta coming out of Sicily couldn't have beaten the CIAs time on securing the people though and would they have found Stevens simply because they are Delta?  Would they magically have known where that room was in an emergency situation or how to break into it?

    I asked some rightie friends (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 10:35:16 AM EST
    who I should believe in an argument between McCain and Petraeus (CIA).  So far they weigh in on the side of McCain over The Man Called Petraeus. But I can tell it hurts their heads.

    You are brave (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 10:39:42 AM EST
    and pure of spirit for even asking them.  What a bunch of cranks.  Did you see that the Pentagon says the closest Spectre gunship was in Afghanistan?  What a bunch of raving liars whoever's lips moved this conspiracy into existence.

    Did not see that one (none / 0) (#21)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 10:57:25 AM EST
    Do you have any military-oriented sites I can steer them to for info? They are a lot of Navy folks.

    To learn more about aircraft (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 11:08:57 AM EST
    My husband always suggest Aviation Week which people in military aviation currently call Aviation Leak.  As for what happened in Benghazi and the crazy conspiracy about the denial of aid, I think you would have to be in military aviation to know immediately someone was lying like a rug.

    Actually these folks are in Naval aviation (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 11:36:29 AM EST
    Probably already read Aviation Leak! But if you come across something specific about Benghazi let me know.  I suspect they are just concern trolling, but if they really want info I will provide what I can!

    I should make clear that the (none / 0) (#26)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 11:39:41 AM EST
    active duty folks are not in the discussion.

    Really burns me to see The New York Times (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 09:36:22 AM EST
    jump right into this without a thought.  Really guys, Delta forces in Sicily would have changed all this?  So Delta forces aren't just super soldiers but they are fire fighters too and everyone would have been saved if only they had been in Sicily?

    Think about it journalists, try asking some people some harder questions.  Embassy work is dangerous, that is why they are built like fortresses unless the Republicans cut your funding.


    I guess BTD is over (none / 0) (#12)
    by lilburro on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 09:39:35 AM EST
    they are now making some pretty dark but imo funny jokes about Akin.

    Different count of those who died (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 09:44:00 AM EST
    In United States embassy and consulate attacks during the Bush administration places the number at 53, and 90 wounded.

    My "discount double check" rant (none / 0) (#16)
    by Dadler on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 10:20:10 AM EST
    The Boss! and some other guy (none / 0) (#20)
    by Towanda on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 10:54:01 AM EST
    will be live-streamed from Madison, Wisconsin, here.

    Unfortunately, it's not the great weather that The Boss! and Kerry had for that historic event there.

    It's cold and drizzly, as it will be on election day in Madison and Milwaukee, the major hotbeds for Dem votes.  Fortunately, that means the weather also will be all too seasonal in between those cities, in Waukesha County, the major site for losing Dem votes and manufacturing Repub votes on the laptop of county election clerk Kathy Nicklaus.

    Thank You TL (none / 0) (#24)
    by sj on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 11:22:35 AM EST
    for updating the blogroll link to The Sideshow.  Now if you could the same Glenn Greenwald...   :)

    Thank you TL (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 02:42:58 PM EST
    for your role in this election. Unlike the preaching to the choir of other liberal blogs, this blog has a significant segment of skeptical of Obama Dems who I think this blog has probably convinced to hold their nose and weigh in for Obama. With some of things at stake, notwithstanding Obama's obvious flaws, this blog has made its best mark on election 2012.

    Here's hoping PPP is the most awesomest (none / 0) (#29)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 11:59:40 AM EST
    pollster evah!!! Their latest tweet after finding O + 4 in NV is as follows:

    PublicPolicyPolling ‏@ppppolls

    Based on our final polls we expect Barack Obama to win 303 electoral votes and Mitt Romney to win 191 with 44 up for grabs in FL and NC

    They've got 303 which is what I have. I am giving (none / 0) (#31)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:01:52 PM EST
    NC and FL to Romney.  I think Obama has a great chance in Florida but I don't trust the vote counting there, especially if it's as close as many say.  

    I live here (none / 0) (#36)
    by Amiss on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:26:46 PM EST
    and I don't trust the counting either. Jeb Bush was here last week, along with our wonderful Rick Scott makes one very nervous. Even have had bomb threats at libraries. Just crazies!

    Here is a hopeful diary posted at Kos... (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:24:47 PM EST
    ... by a diarist who has been updating early voting/absentee voting in FL throughout.

    Basically, Obama was up by 250,000 in combined early absentee voting going into election day in 2008, and is up by almost 190,000 this year not including the late availability of absentee votes in Obama counties still yet to be tallied. In other words, notwithstanding the ugly attempts at disenfranchising Obama voters and the reduced early voting opportunities, Obama has almost equaled his 2008 output in FL.

    I so want FL and OH to be blue for the obvious reasons, but also to just be a middle finger to the GOP syndicate in these two states.


    *170,000 vote dem lead. (none / 0) (#47)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:27:06 PM EST
    It's a shame this is what our country has come to. (none / 0) (#37)
    by Angel on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:32:00 PM EST
    The GOP is truly afraid of people voting because they know they are going to be relegated to the dinosaur heap.  I'm personally sick of all these people and their dirty tricks.  I wish the Justice Dept could get concrete evidence of crime and put these people in prison where they belong.

    Citizens United foot soldier (5.00 / 3) (#52)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 02:02:44 PM EST
    Jim Bopp gave the game and the attendent mindset away the other night on Frontline: the only people interested in knowing where the money comes from are "left wing nuts".

    What the Right braintrust aspires to is an elite supported by the pathologically disengaged.  


    Gallup Factors (none / 0) (#42)
    by AngryBlackGuy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:06:12 PM EST
    1. Obama approval > 50%

    2. "Gallup editor-in-chief Frank Newport tells Bloomberg Businessweek that the release of Monday's tracking poll, set for 1 p.m., will show Mitt Romney leading President Obama 49 percent to 48 percent among likely voters nationally. This is the first tracking poll released since Hurricane Sandy and is notable for the strong movement to Obama. The last Gallup poll on Oct. 29 showed Romney up by 5 points--51 percent to 46 percent. Romney's one-point lead is within the margin of error and, statistically speaking, amounts to a tie. "It's tied today at 1 o'clock," Newport said by phone Monday morning." - http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-05/breaking-gallup-to-show-romney-obama-in-dead-heat

    The GOP has been relying on Gallup and Rasmussen to fuel their position that Romney is ahead.

    Shorter Frank Newport (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by ruffian on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:46:48 PM EST
    We have tweaked our model so we are no longer such an outlier.

    Yes, I also read that (none / 0) (#51)
    by Towanda on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 01:54:02 PM EST
    as following the Rasmussen model, so as to be able to claim the Bestest Polling Evah.

    You know why, don't you? (none / 0) (#58)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 02:38:34 PM EST
    Three words, which summed up the Gallup poll's most embarrassing moment ever, and also provided one of the most famous political photos in U.S. history:



    Team Romney Won't Let People Leave Rally (none / 0) (#55)
    by ScottW714 on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 02:20:21 PM EST

    Citing "security concerns", Mitt Romney's supporters were not allowed to leave a Pennsylvania campaign rally held on Sunday, despite the fact that the crowd had been waiting for hours in the bitter cold for the candidate to arrive.

    Reporters who were at the event tweeted about the chaos, as supporters were denied the ability to leave the event. Some parents complained that their children were on the verge of hypothermia and frostbite, but staff still wouldn't relent. Eventually though, the started letting people leave a few at a time.

    His supporters just getting a preview of his rein, security my a$$.

    Another LINK with Tweets and pics

    think they lost the votes of those parents? (none / 0) (#67)
    by DFLer on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 05:46:52 PM EST
    From our "Anals of History" file: (none / 0) (#60)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 03:04:06 PM EST
    What do almost nine out of every ten countries through the world have in common?

    Well, at at one time or another throughout history, they've each been attacked, invaded or conquered militarily by the British, according to a study recently concluded by historian Stuart Laycock.

    Not surprisingly, the country with the second most aggressive overseas national profile through the ages has been France, in terms of the number of documented military incursions abroad.

    And equally unsurprisingly, France has also been Britain's foremost military victim, having borne the brunt of more British attacks and invasions than any other country, the last ones occurring during the Second World War.

    They don't make a distinction... (none / 0) (#61)
    by magster on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 03:07:33 PM EST
    between invasions invited by the country to fight a different invader?

    One of the dirty little secrets that's ... (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:38:48 PM EST
    "They don't make a distinction between invasions invited by the country to fight a different invader?"

    ... very seldom disclosed about our liberation of France between June and August of 1944, is that the intensive Allied bombing campaign throughout Normandy and northern France just prior to and during the rusulant Allied invasion resulted in over 50,000 French civilian casualties, including over 10,000 dead.

    Further, another 19,000 civilians were estimated to have died in the crossfire throughout the summer of 1944 as U.S., British and Canadian forces advanced through France and Belgium toward the German frontier.

    That we very seldom acknowledge this sad but inevitable carnage -- which was for the most part unavoidable, given the enormous scale of opposing forces in France that year -- has long been somewhat of a sore point with the French, even today.

    Another dirty little secret from the Second World War is that when American forces first went into action against the Axis European powers in November 1942 during "Operation Torch" (the Anglo-American invasion of North Africa), we were not initially facing German or Italian forces. Rather, we ran smack-dab up against heavy resistance from the nearly 150,000 Vichy French troops who garrisoned Morocco and Algeria. (Vichy France was a client satellite state of Nazi Germany.)

    In the naval Battle of Casablanca (Nov. 10, 1942), the U.S. Navy squadron covering the invasion sank a French cruiser, six destroyers and six submarines, and further disabled the French battleship Jean Bart. One American destroyer was sunk, and another badly damaged in the melee.

    At Oran, the U.S. troops who were initially pinned down on the landing beaches by heavy French fire (November 8-9) were ultimately saved by the actions of four British Royal Navy battleships, which braved enemy artillery by sailing close to shore, training their heavy guns on French fortifications in the hills above the beaches, and literally pounding the French into capitulation one day later.

    Officially, 497 Americans, 94 Brits and 1,396 French sailors and soldiers lost their lives in the three days' fighting at Casablanca, Oran and Algiers. Another 900 Americans and 2,000 French were wounded.

    Therefore, the notion that we were "invited" by the French to liberate the motherland in the Second World War is at best dubious.

    While Gen. Charles DeGaulle and the Free French government then exiled in London undoubtedly gave the green light to Gen. Eisenhower, it's clearly a real stretch to claim that they represented French mainstream public opinion at the time. They merely spoke for those 150,000 French troops who managed to escape from Dunkirk with their British allies in May 1940, and who chose to continue fighting alongside the British after Gen. Henri Petain surrendered their country to the Germans the following month.

    One final dirty little secret is that while there was indeed a stubborn and active core of French resistance throughout the four years of German occupation, French civilians were often more than prone to work in active collaboration with the Germans. It was not at all uncommon for those U.S., British and Canadian airmen who survived being shot down over France, to be subsequently taken into custody by civilians and turned over to the German authorities.

    War by its very nature is a rather complicated and messy affair, and each conflict will always have its share of dirty little secrets that few wish to either acknowledge or talk about.



    So did you mean "annals"... (none / 0) (#71)
    by unitron on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 06:42:17 PM EST
    ... or a55h0l35 of history?

    Wouldn't it have been interesting if the US-UK occupation of France had extended far beyond VE day?

    Photo of de Gaulle's head exploding, priceless.


    No. I meant "anals." (none / 0) (#76)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 09:39:33 PM EST
    We're talking about the British Empire, after all, and few people on this Earth have proved themselves to be more anal retentive than the British.

    I've always been terribly cognizant of the difference between the words, ever since my high school English teacher politely pointed it out to me while grading my paper -- with a little smiley face by my mistake. She still gave me an "A," but that's one lesson she drummed into me very easily.

    I agree with you. It's interesting to ponder what the world would've been like, had the U.S. and Great Britain not sought to treat France as an equal partner after liberating her, especially given the duplicity of Vichy France during the war.


    Obama live in Ohio (none / 0) (#63)
    by lilburro on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 03:41:17 PM EST

    there's something endearimg (none / 0) (#74)
    by CST on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 07:24:23 PM EST
    About soap opera digest in the grocery store checkout line.  While all the regular tabloids change daily - someone who is famous today is a nobody tomorrow - soap opera digest is remarkably consistent.

    I swear 10 years ago they probably had the same character with the same plot line.   Sammy isn't really dead!  And Marlena is up to the same shenanigans!

    Hmmm, soap operas' resurrection (none / 0) (#75)
    by Towanda on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 07:42:13 PM EST
    of dead characters, when their return is needed to revive ratings, may have helped to give rise to the "zombie" craze.  (I have been puzzling for some time about where it came from -- and what it says about us as a society. . . .)

    I think the zombie craze (none / 0) (#77)
    by kmblue on Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 06:59:17 AM EST
    is about fun. What it says about us as a society is
    it's nice to be scared of something meaningless for a change.  

    I think the zombie craze (none / 0) (#78)
    by kmblue on Tue Nov 06, 2012 at 06:59:17 AM EST
    is about fun. What it says about us as a society is
    it's nice to be scared of something meaningless for a change.