Wednesday Morning Open Thread: Highs and Lows

Congrats to Melissa Rycroft and Tony Dovolani for winning the mirror ball trophy on Dancing With the Stars. Melissa is a terrific dancer -- I thought she should have won in 2009. This season, I only watched the last two shows since I boycotted DWTS due to Bristol Palin being on again, but I've watched Melissa dance enough over the years to believe she deserved it.

Also fun on last night's show: the Gangnam Style number . Psy is up to 831 million views of Gangnam Style today. More power to him. [More...]

Another winner: Dannielyn Burkhart, Anna Nicole Smith's stunning, now 6 year old daughter. She will be the face of the Guess Kids campaign starting in January. She's certainly got the face and personality for it. The ads are terrific, very tatesful, and it's her idea -- she's having the time of her life. She's a perfect fit for the work. The Busy-body mamas of other people's kids who are concerned need to keep their Nanny State feelings to themselves.

Larger version here.

In the "low" department, Tampa housewife Jill Kelley's lawyer is "fighting back", sending out three letters: One went to the Justice Department, asking if they plan on investigating the source of the official who leaked her name; the second is to the Florida Bar complaining about lawyer Barry Cohen's public statements about her; and the third is to Adam Victor who told the media about the fee she was asking for if his business deal with South Korea went through.

Too little, too late, in my opinion. Public perception of Ms. Kelley is unlikely to turn around. Her lawyer asks Mr. Victor if he was motivated by getting 15 minutes of fame. Pretty ironic statement, since according to media reports, his client's last ten years have been spent getting 15 minutes of fame. I suspect it's Jill Kelley, not Mr. Victor, whose 15 minutes are up.

In other low news, Dominique Strauss-Kahn finds out tomorrow if p*mping charges will be dismissed against him in France. From what I've read, I think they will be. The "low" is that his wife has left him, and he's still in the civil suit by the hotel maid in New York. Another example of how damaging it can be when the press blasts high and low you've been accused of a crime. Our guilt-hungry public eats it up and you lose even when ultimately you win the case.

This is an open thread, all topics welcome.

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    B.S. (Bowles/Simpson) on the road. (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 09:30:12 AM EST
    The NYT reports today, on its front page, that B.S. is everywhere,  touring the country to discuss their solution to the federal debt.  Some business groups pay them $40,000 each per appearance.   The article does not mention if the business groups include the pet food industry.

    However, the Cat food Commission's unaccepted and failed report seems to have nine lives.  On Tuesday, Bowles and corporate executives he helped recruit to a 'fix the debt" campaign met privately at the WH with six senior administration officials, including Secretary Geithner.  

    $40,000 to hear about blood, hair, and eyeballs (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 09:44:27 AM EST
    On the floor.  Because some people are bored with Patriot Survival Seeds and the ungrown gardens :)

    I don't watch DWTS (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by desmoinesdem on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:52:30 AM EST
    but that Gangnam Style song is unbelievably catchy. Who knows why anything gets to be that popular, but think Psy really knew what he was doing with the wacky choreography. The pause before the "riding the horse" move exaggerates the humor value.

    It has to be incredibly hard to think of something new and creative to do in a music video. Everyone loves imitating the routine or putting a fun spin on it. I got a kick out of watching the University of Iowa College Democrats go crazy during homecoming.

    make that U of Northern Iowa (none / 0) (#18)
    by desmoinesdem on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:52:51 AM EST
    college Dems.

    From our "Rainy Day Women #12" file: (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:51:54 PM EST
    Just in case anyone is still wondering how Mitt Romney lost the 2012 election to President Obama, never fear, because chief campaign strategist Stuart Stevens has written an op-ed in the Washington Post which explains it all to us.

    You see, when Romney was talking about 47% of the country being deadbeats and freeloaders who wanted government to give them stuff, it was really all part of a master plan, by which the GOP nominee would exclusively win the hearts, minds and votes of those people who really mattered in this country, and thus actually win the moral victory over Obama:

    "When Mitt Romney stood on stage with President Obama, it wasn't about television ads or whiz-bang turnout technologies, it was about fundamental Republican ideas vs. fundamental Democratic ideas. It was about lower taxes or higher taxes, less government or more government, more freedom or less freedom. And Republican ideals -- Mitt Romney -- carried the day. On Nov. 6, that wasn't enough to win. But it was enough to make us proud and to build on for the future."

    Well, I must say, if you can think logically like that, then who needs a bong?


    Zig Ziglar, RIP. (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 05:37:29 PM EST

    I didn't know ... (none / 0) (#64)
    by sj on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 06:01:13 PM EST
    ... he was still alive. I guess I had him as a contemporary of Andrew Carnegie -- which is completely wrong.

    Sea level rising faster than predicted (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 05:53:39 PM EST
    Projections for sea level rise in coming decades could be too conservative, experts warned Wednesday, saying they found that the rise over the last two decades is much more than predicted by the U.N. scientific body tracking climate signals.

    In a peer-reviewed study, the experts said satellite data show sea levels rose by 3.2 millimeters (0.1 inch) a year from 1993 to 2011 -- 60 percent faster than the 2 mm annual rise projected by the U.N.'s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change for that period.

    "This suggests that IPCC sea-level projections for the future may also be biased low," the team wrote in the journal Environmental Research Letters.


    Cool poster (none / 0) (#1)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 07:23:06 AM EST
    52 characters from The Wire. It was fun scrolling through and remembering these folks. Might need a marathon viewing session soon.

    I think the 15 minutes has been reduced (none / 0) (#2)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 07:49:34 AM EST
    to about 2. It is as if Jill Kelley's reality show has even already been on the air and cancelled. No one cares.

    Jill who? (none / 0) (#46)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:57:23 PM EST

    I loved the Fierce 5 (none / 0) (#3)
    by indy in sc on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 08:23:37 AM EST
    Gymnasts dancing with Shawn Johnson for their free-style!

    I wanted Shawn to win, but I'm happy Melissa did.  She is a very good dancer.  

    I think Tony after being (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Amiss on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 03:02:42 PM EST
    On the show for 14 years, being given sh** stars, truly deserved the title. I personally do not believe that the gymnasts, althhough I love them dearly(especially Gabby) gave Shawn an unfair advantage. Don't forget,  the audience voted too.
    I wish they had not included Bristol either, only to see Sarah front and  center each week.
    BTW my husband gave all his votes to Shawn and Derek.

    Well, it's actually 14 seasons (none / 0) (#53)
    by sj on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 03:49:29 PM EST
    over 7 years (debuted in 2005) but I agree with you.  I didn't vote -- shame on me -- but I was rooting for Melissa and Tony.

    Tony was so excited to have a partner with potential this season.


    You are correct (none / 0) (#111)
    by Amiss on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 01:08:05 AM EST
     I mis-spoke, the 14 stuck in my mind, please forgive me. I have had several strokes and my brain mis-fires a lot.

    Threatened. (none / 0) (#4)
    by Addison on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 08:37:17 AM EST
    Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and several other teenagers were sitting in a sport utility vehicle in the parking lot when Dunn pulled up next to them in a car and asked them to turn down their music, [Jacksonville sheriff's Lt. Rob] Schoonover said.

    Jordan and Dunn exchanged words, and Dunn pulled a gun and shot eight or nine times, striking Jordan twice, Schoonover said. Jordan was sitting in the back seat. No one else was hurt. Dunn's attorney Monday said her client acted responsibly and in self-defense. She did not elaborate.

    Schoonover also said that "there were words exchanged" between the two, and Dunn claims to have felt "threatened" before opening fire.


    [Orlando Sentinel]

    SYG???? (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 11:18:00 AM EST
    That is what the shooter is claiming. (none / 0) (#37)
    by caseyOR on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:41:51 PM EST
    He felt so threatened by a teenager who was sitting in the back seat listening to loud music that he had to shoot the kid to protect himself.

    It is another example to me (5.00 / 3) (#42)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:43:03 PM EST
    of an idiot who never would have started an argument if he were not armed. Not he will claim self defense because he was maybe genuinely threatened. Just drives me nuts.

    Great way... (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by kdog on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 03:16:50 PM EST
    to exterminate "undesirables" in your community legally...go around picking fights and causing trouble till one of your targets takes the bait, then plug 'em full of holes and claim syg or self-defense because you "felt threatened".  Easy to feel threatened when you're out threatening Sherlock!

    Nice little loophole to go on a pogrom...if the Nazis had thought of that they coulda stayed outta the Hague.


    Why don't people ever think of (none / 0) (#51)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 03:36:57 PM EST
    doing something like moving to a different parking space, closing their windows, or here's a radical idea: minding their own business?

    Proves once again that guns don't make a person smarter; seriously, people that stupid shouldn't be allowed around weapons of any kind.


    Maybe he did feel (none / 0) (#112)
    by Amiss on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 01:30:06 AM EST
    Threatened by them turning the music up instead of down. Do zI believe he was right? NO. But at the same time, they were harassing the whole place with their very loud music. He had just attended his son's wedding in Orange Park, a son he had not seen in some while. Both the DJ and  bartender said nothing was out of the ordinary. He had traveled up here from Brevard County. He aeoke the next morning to the news of the death. Not knowing the area, he went to see his attorney and turn himself in.
    If they had not broken 2 laws (1 loud music and 2 windows tinted darker than legally allowed) He may not have pulled his gun and shot.
    I am not defending him, but I, as a sr. citizen having been been put in similar circumstances have empathy for him.
    Again 2 wrongs do not make a right.

    So what if they turned the music up? (none / 0) (#117)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 10:04:18 AM EST
    I might feel threatened by pink T-shirts, but if I go around shooting at Komen-fundraisers I'm going to have serious legal issues.  If he felt threatened by the loud music, maybe he shouldn't have confronted them about the music.  You keep saying there were "2 wrongs", as if these "2 wrongs' are even remotely comparable.

    They're not.

    By your logic, when you are driving alone in an HOV lane at 67 mph, you have "broken 2 laws".  If someone feels threatened by speeders, they could shoot you and your speeding/HOV violation would be a mitigating factor.

    BTW - If he felt genuinely threatened such that he felt justified in using deadly force, he should have called 911.  At the very least, he should have done so after moving to a different location.  He didn't.  By all news accounts, he didn't turn himself in to his attorney - he was tracked to his home address by police with license plate information provided by witnesses.


    Well, then it really all depends on what ... (none / 0) (#48)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 03:10:36 PM EST
    ... the kid in the back seat was listening to. If it was 2 Live Crew, then that's scary bad gangsta thug rap music, and the shooter felt himself to be in immnent danger of being mugged and rolled. If it was Lady Gaga, then that's simply too fey and gay, and the shooter must've thought the teenager was mocking his sexuality. It's all the victim's fault!

    It's simply amazing what some people will say and claim in order to avoid taking personal responsibility for their own actions, isn't it?


    Barber's "Adagio for Strings." So soft (none / 0) (#88)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 02:41:10 AM EST
    and soothing.  Blam.

    Dunn is claiming that he saw a gun barrel (none / 0) (#50)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 03:30:49 PM EST
    It was recently reported that Dunn's lawyer would be using a self-defense claim under the Stand Your Ground Law to defend his client.

    Dunn is claiming that he saw a gun barrel in the SUV's window.

    There was no gun in the SUV according to Jacksonville Police.

    While I do think Zimmerman should qualify for "SYG," I can't give the same support to someone claiming that they "saw a gun barrel."

    details of the incident as I'm sure there was more to it than has been released to the press so far.

    Facts in Sentinel are wrong (none / 0) (#85)
    by Amiss on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 12:26:17 AM EST
    If you are quoting them. The lone man was filling his gas tank. The Aa boys/punks drove around being a**es when he asked them to turn it down. He was met with even louder music and the 4 boys running their mouths at him. It is said their windows were legally too dark, he couldnt see well inside the vehicle.
    It has been brewing for months with "punks" doing this in nicer sections of town and the bad attitudes. This happened a few blocks from our complex and every nite at least 2 groups would do this, if you say something you are answered by cocky BS.Since this happened, it has stoppeed. For now, anyway ( I meant do it in our complex). The guy was from out of town and shot 8 times.
    They were looking for trouble and got more than they bargained  for.

    If what you have said is true I still (5.00 / 3) (#87)
    by caseyOR on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 02:38:56 AM EST
    don't see any reason for Dunn to shoot into the teens' car multiple times.

    Dunn shot-up the car then drove away to a motel. The next morning when he saw on the TV news that he had killed someone, Dunn and his girlfriend chose to flee the area rather than go to the police. He was found because witnesses to the shooting took down his license plate number.

    I have no fondness for @ssholes, but loud music and backtalk should not be met with gunfire.


    I agree with you on many points (none / 0) (#93)
    by Amiss on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 10:00:14 AM EST
    It is usually "gangsta" style music. A friend that was there said the SUV windows were so dark no one could have seen inside. Still no reason to shoot 8 times.  It is "cool" in this area N.Fla.S.Ga. to wear pants falling lower and lowerr and to ride around in vehicles with blacked out windows. I am surprised someone has not snapped before now.
    Rick Scott has cut law enforcement budgets to the barest of bares.It IS against the law to ride around with these souped up stereo systems and
    or blacked out windows, but there is not enough money to pay law enforcements.
    Personally, I think the kids were wrong AND the motorist was wrong.

    Probably, but ... (5.00 / 2) (#105)
    by Yman on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 01:44:46 PM EST
    Personally, I think the kids were wrong AND the motorist was wrong.

    ... there's a question of HUGE differences in degree.  The kids may have been "wrong" for playing their music too loudly and mouthing off (if they did), but these actions in no way justify shooting someone.  If these are the facts, the kids were guilty of boorish, teenage behavior, but the man is guilty of murder.  


    interesting (none / 0) (#109)
    by desmoinesdem on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 12:28:33 AM EST
    So playing loud music and acting like a jerk should be punishable by death in this country, according to you?

    I never, ever (none / 0) (#113)
    by Amiss on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 01:37:20 AM EST
    Said that. But I believe in mitigating circumstances. Apparently yo do not.

    I am not sure this is about mitigating (none / 0) (#115)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 01:56:47 AM EST
    circumstances. I think this is about what happens when we let everyone who wants a  gun have a gun, and then we pass SYG laws which make it even easier for someone to pull the trigger.

    If Dunn did not have a gun would he have handled this differently? I expect he would have. Perhaps he would have just ignored the loud music. Perhaps he would have asked them to turn it down, and if they refused, just walked away. Maybe he would have called the police. In each of these cases nobody dies.

    Without Florida's SYG law Dunn quite possibly would have thought twice, maybe thrice, before unloading 8 rounds into that car. It seems to me that SYG laws give people the idea that there are no consequences for shooting someone. All they have to do if claim they felt threatened.

    There is no excuse for what Dunn did. You talk about mitigating circumstances, but nothing I have read strikes me me as a mitigating circumstance. There is never an occasion when the proper response to loud music and backtalk or trashtalk or whatever is to shoot someone. That Dunn could not see into the car just makes this worse. He is damn lucky he didn't kill more kids.

    If there is a problem with kids or young adults harassing people, elderly or not, that is something to take up with the police.


    I believe in them, too (none / 0) (#116)
    by Yman on Sat Dec 01, 2012 at 09:13:14 AM EST
    I believe in mitigating circumstances.

    Given the relative severity of their offenses (playing music loudly/words vs. shooting and killing someone), his sentence should be reduced by 1 hour.


    "he couldn't see well inside" (5.00 / 2) (#91)
    by sj on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 09:28:36 AM EST
    So obviously, the thing to do is start shooting?  Shoot into the car and drive off?  Seriously? Because he didn't like the noise for the length of time it took to put gas in his car?

    You say it's been "brewing for months" and then note that the guy was from out of town so the past behavior is doubly irrelevant.

    I'd say the kids weren't the only ones looking for trouble.


    where are you getting this version? (5.00 / 3) (#94)
    by Anne on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 10:01:06 AM EST
    I ask only because none of the articles I've seen mention that the "Aa boys/punks drove around being a**es when he asked them to turn it down."  Everything I've seen says that Dunn pulled up in his car next to the boys' SUV, and when he got out to pump his gas, he asked them to turn the music down.

    Here are my questions: why say anything to the boys at all?  Why did he care how loud the music was?  If he's feeling uncomfortable, why even get out of the car at all - why not just go get gas somewhere else?  Why look for trouble?

    If he couldn't see inside the vehicle, he had no business firing into it; his lawyer says he saw a shotgun barrel, but no weapon was found.  Not to mention that this was in a gas station, and last time I checked, stray bullets hitting a gas pump can be kind of a bad thing.  And there were people coming and going from the convenience store.

    As many questions as I've had about George Zimmerman and that whole situation, at least Zimmerman didn't take off, as Dunn and his girlfriend did.  If he felt so justified, why flee the scene?  If not for someone getting his license plate, it does not appear that Dunn planned to turn himself in.

    I wonder how many more of these needless deaths have to occur before it becomes obvious that whatever the original intention of a SYG defense, the law seems to only have encouraged people to check their common sense at the door and give them license to fire at will.


    Local news and people (none / 0) (#104)
    by Amiss on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 01:39:34 PM EST
    That were there. It happened several blocks from where we live as I explained earlier. I don't think either party was right, but I can not say I am surprised.
    local news reports say he did not believe when he left the station that anyone was dead. He said he was afraid, I believe him. Theese punks/kids like to harass older or senior citizens, of which I am one.

    You believe him? (5.00 / 3) (#106)
    by Yman on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 02:43:56 PM EST

    Even if he didn't believe anyone was dead, according to his own story he fired eight times into a car full of people only a few feet away.  He did so because (according to him) someone in the car pointed a shotgun at him (no weapons were found in the other car).  Rather than calling 911, he drove to a hotel.  He stayed there with his girlfriend and still didn't call the police after he found out he had killed someone, but drove 160 miles to his home where the police tracked him from license plate information provided by witnesses.


    I understand being nervous around (5.00 / 3) (#107)
    by caseyOR on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 02:53:04 PM EST
    teenagers, especially boys. I think I have mentioned here before that the one group I am automatically wary of is teenage boys. Skin color doesn't matter. If I see a group of more than two teenage boys coming toward me I get nervous. The only people who have ever openly and directly hassled me because they thought I was a lesbian were teenage boys. It hasn't happened in years, but I still remain wary.

    That said, I never thought that shooting them would be a good idea. They never touched me physically. They were quite verbal, but that's it.

    And I have pulled up next to a car of teens or young people, usually male, where the music is loud and the bass is pounding, and while it can be annoying, I never thought "Hey, if only I had a gun. I'd teach these kids a lesson."

    This shooting is what happens when we let any damn fool have a gun. And SYG laws get twisted into knots to justify the killing.


    harassing people (none / 0) (#110)
    by desmoinesdem on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 12:30:50 AM EST
    is bad behavior, but no one should be killed for playing loud music and mouthing off to elders.

    I agree. (none / 0) (#114)
    by Amiss on Fri Nov 30, 2012 at 01:55:26 AM EST
    And some people believe in respect. But I don't think unloading your gun into a car is the answer. Here, I don't leave the house alone after dark.

    Al Simpson says........ (none / 0) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 08:52:12 AM EST
    There's going to be blood, hair, and eyeballs all over the floor.  I have always felt that growing up rural challenges us to get creative but really Al?

    Oh yeah, and if the cliff doesn't scare you they are calling you a cliff diver now :)

    Who came up with that?  Luntz?

    Rhut-rhoo... (none / 0) (#10)
    by DebFrmHell on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 09:50:26 AM EST
    I tried to embed and got left out in the cold.  Brrrrrrr.  Very sorry, should have previewed...


    click the preview button (none / 0) (#30)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:00:28 PM EST
    before posting. I deleted your comment and another with a long url because they long urls skew the site. You can also get a short url from tinyurl or bitly.

    Something I don't understand that I've seen (none / 0) (#11)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 09:51:55 AM EST
    Supported in the leftwing blogosphere in comments, people claiming that Amb Rice isn't good enough at diplomacy to be our Sec of State.  She IS currently our UN Amb.  Who knew she couldn't do diplomacy?

    I do not understand (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:14:27 AM EST
    why Ambassador Rice asked to meet with the two amigos and the new amiga.  The meeting was a gamble that did not have to be taken.  And, it stoked a fire that was dying--McCain seemed to be backing down and it was vamoose for his old amigo, Lieberman.  It only gave misplaced attention to the embittered McCain and his sidekicks.  Sometimes, the self-perception of masterly persuasive skills eclipses an opponent's ossified agenda.

    So, you think that what three (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:25:58 AM EST
    Idiots have done with a meeting and a microphone and some shock and awe that the press eats up, that is an indicator of her overall skills?

    I want her for my SOS.  She reminds me of Albright.


    No, that is not what I think-- (none / 0) (#14)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:32:42 AM EST
    or said.  

    I think she has been railroaded hard (none / 0) (#15)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:39:12 AM EST
    The Republican Senate wants John Kerry for SOS so they can run Brown for the seat.  I just watched Collins come out and basically spell it out, they want Kerry.

    How are they going to... (none / 0) (#27)
    by unitron on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 12:33:06 PM EST
    ...praise Kerry to the heavens during confirmation hearings and simultaneously let the swift boat people come in to villify him again?

    they are already doing so! (none / 0) (#29)
    by DFLer on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 12:56:21 PM EST
    I agree, MT. For whatever (none / 0) (#40)
    by caseyOR on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:05:51 PM EST
    reason these senators want Kerry as SoS. McCain and Graham are senate buddies of Kerry's.

    Maybe they are doing this at Kerry's behest. it is no secret that he wanted/expected to be appointed SoS in Obama's first term. Perhaps this is a bit of politicking on Kerry's part.

    I know he has been mentioned as SoD, but, really, who in their right mind wants to try to run the viper pit that is Defense?

    And, as an added bennie, the more Democratic senators appointed to Obama's cabinet the weaker the Dems hold on the senate.


    The problem I'm having with how the (none / 0) (#16)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:48:05 AM EST
    whole Susan Rice/Benghazi situation is being handled is that regardless of whether Rice is fully qualified and capable of being Secretary of State, Republicans are relentlessly working to undermine her credibility and capability to the point where, if she is nominated, and if she should be confirmed, she's entering the position with a significant handicap; I don't know that she'll ever be written or talked about without "Benghazi" being mentioned.  

    So, the question then becomes, is that a liability that can't be overcome here or in the wider world?  If she is being set up to have no credibility, is it worth the fight Obama will have to wage to get her confirmed, and what will he and/or the Dems have to give up to get his way?  Because you know the GOP will want something - they always do.

    As an aside, sort of, does this mean that Kerry is likely to be nominated to be Secretary of Defense, and if so, how do people feel about that?


    Credibility (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by vicndabx on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:55:51 AM EST
    comes from what you do, not from what obvious enemies say about you.

    IMO, this bolsters her credibility if she stands up to this crap.


    The point you're missing here is that (none / 0) (#23)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 11:53:44 AM EST
    what she did was meet with McCain, Graham and Ayotte, which gave them the opportunity to come out of the meeting and make a beeline for the nearest microphone so they could express their renewed opposition to her.

    Which was KeysDan's point, above.  She didn't have to do that; it was a defensive move, not an offensive one, and it didn't work - it made things worse.

    How many times can the average person see these three stooges delivering a message of "we don't trust her" and defense being the only game she and the administration are playing before the law of diminishing returns dictates that winning this battle may contribute to losing a figurative war down the line?

    I think what's being done to Rice is shameful, and I don't like the idea of Obama throwing her under the bus, but at some point, he's going to have to calculate what his best move is, and he may decide that continuing to fight for her isn't it.


    For that, I refer to my ... (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:02:17 PM EST
    ... my oft-quoted Persian proverb: "The dogs bark, the caravan passes."

    I think Susan Rice made a good-faith effort to meet with The Three Stooges. If that's still not good enough for the Republicans and the Fox News bimbos, then screw 'em. At this point, who cares what they think and say?

    Rice and the administration can move on, secure in the knowledge that most good and decent people will agree that it's no use trying to reason any further with the willfully irrational.


    Hillary Clinton entered the job (none / 0) (#22)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 11:22:29 AM EST
    With a stepped on dogeared image to everyone but us around here.  And there was stuff to be done, and she has shone.  I don't think they've damaged anything tangible.

    As for Kerry as Sec Def, you know those soldiers I hang with sometimes?  They say that the throwing away of his medals is a big problem in taking that job.  I already know you will disagree on this, I'm just relaying how it was explained to me.

    And the dimensional chess crew will say that Obama always knew all this and he always wanted Kerry for SOS but knew the obstructionists must first obstruct so never float your first choice first.

    Can I get Rice for Sec Def then?  Someone who can flip others off and be colorful of speech when dealing with camo bullies is needed in that position.


    If they value symbolic hardware... (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Dadler on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 12:22:05 PM EST
    ...over principled protest (which is the only thing freedom means, after all), then those soldiers you hang with need to examine their intellects and the prejudices infecting them. I have many problems with Kerry, but that ain't one of them by a longshot. Many upstanding peeps in uniform, I simply have a grave problem with the bending of the national psyche that results from worshiping your standing army too readily and too much -- while, at the same time, underfunding all the critical care necessary to treat the horrific effects of war on the human body and soul.  

    Not to digress annoyingly or anything (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Dadler on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 12:22:58 PM EST
    Ahem.  It's pouring here.  Cabin fever.  Forgive me.

    I knew you wouldn't agree :) (none / 0) (#34)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:27:07 PM EST
    I think he would be a great Sec Def.  But, those who will decide this don't give a damn what I think :)

    I actually wouldn't mind him for Def Sec (none / 0) (#95)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 10:37:48 AM EST
    We could do much worse.

    Yes, it is. (none / 0) (#41)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:21:18 PM EST
    Dadler: "It's pouring here."

    I believe this is what I heard your weatherman on Channel 7 this morning describe as "The Pineapple Express." This particular storm front passed over us in the islands two days ago -- wasn't nearly as cold, though.

    I just arrived this morning on the red-eye, and I'm working down in Burlingame. The final 45 minutes of my flight were pretty turbulent, and it was a rough landing.

    I was planning to catch the BART into San Francisco later this afternoon to visit a friend and go to dinner, then changed my mind due to the rain, but now it looks like it might actually be clearing up a little, so I might change my mind again.

    Ciao 4 now.


    Stone's throw from me in B-game (none / 0) (#96)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 10:40:50 AM EST
    Have a great trip. Looks like it should be okay today, the weekend looks terrible tho.

    I think the difference with Hillary was (none / 0) (#26)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 12:31:27 PM EST
    that she had already redeemed herself in the eyes of many as one of New York's Senators, and then, her battle for the nomination moved her back onto a national stage in a new way, went on for months and months, and ended up moving her well past whatever negative image she had as First Lady.

    Most people really have no idea who Susan Rice is, and their first real exposure to her was in the context of her Sunday Show performances which were used to make her look like she either didn't know what she was doing, or was participating in some kind of cover-up.

    I think you may be right in thinking that Obama never intended for Susan Rice to be Secretary of State, and if that's the case, well, I guess it's true that politics ain't beanball, and we can only hope Rice's career recovers and she goes on to bigger and better things.

    As for John Kerry's medals, I really hadn't given that any thought; it's not a big deal for me either way, but I understand why it would be for the military types.

    What I'm really hoping is that this doesn't all end up with some neo-con Republican getting a cabinet position in order to prove Obama's willingness to work together and get things done...


    I don't know how Obama could get along (none / 0) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:21:12 PM EST
    With a NeoCon Sec Def.  He has made his will extremely clear.  We are leaving Afghanistan and we are downsizing.  I was just reading another military spouses writing at Orange and she was talking about soldiers who aren't fit enough being rehabbed back into fitness.  And it is true that when you had two wars going on that was what was being done.  By God things have changed though quickly.

    Army already put the word out, you show up to Ft Rucker for flight school or any career advancing training course and flunk the initial physical fitness test, you are OUT.  It has become the Army again :)

    Can you imagine some wingnut fighting this every step of the way, causing all sorts of "troubling" talking pts?  It would be a train wreck :).  The President being mean to fat heroes like that......what a hoot

    Can you imagine some NeoCon SOS?  Burnin the world down to save it because that is how NeoCons deal with trouble and there's a bit of trouble out there.


    I've (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by lentinel on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 07:26:21 PM EST
    heard that we're leaving Afghanistan --- but I've also read that Obama is mulling over the size of a "residual" force to be left there. Ten thousand or more. Possibly much more. A "robust" force.

    So, not everyone will be leaving.
    As with Romney, all this will depend on the "situation on the ground".

    I'll be surprised if we're really out of there by 2014.
    Hoping for the best.


    So you don't want us to support (none / 0) (#99)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 11:46:01 AM EST
    The Afghan government in any way, even though an Afghan failed state nurtured and enabled 9/11? I am fine having forces in nations that ask for our presence and support as long as our presence is supported and that support is stable.

    I will always remember that Code Pink had to modify its Afghanistan stance because some of their members who lived in Afghanistan begged them to and clarified what would become of the country left to its own devices at that point.  Just having forces someplace does not constitute a war or even a combat situation.


    Chuck Hagel is being vetted (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Politalkix on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 08:09:26 PM EST

    Didn't Chuck Hagel travel with BHO to Iraq during the campaign in 2008 and didn't his wife endorse BHO over McCain?
    Let Colin Powell also be vetted to stick it to McCain.


    Oh goodie. More PPUS. (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 09:11:17 PM EST
    Neither Hagel or Powell would be acceptable to me. Hagel is a frigging hawk. And, after his abominable involvement in sending us into war in Iraq, Powell should have to sign an oath never to serve in any administration again.

    I beg to differ (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by Politalkix on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 09:42:55 PM EST
    Hagel, after voting for the Iraq war (which HRC and Kerry also voted for) was one of the loudest critics of Bush. He is quite independent and is certainly not a hawk.
    Colin Powell was a reluctant warrior at one time (so much so that Madeline Albright told him once that what use was his great military if he was so loathe to use it). The Iraq war will always be a stain in his career and life, something that he will have to take to his grave. However, he did apologise for it. If we are willing to look past the record of HRC and Kerry relating to the Iraq war, I guess we can do so for Powell also. After all, he did have the good sense to leave the Bush administration unlike Condi Rice.

    If Obama wants to nominate a Republican (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by shoephone on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:17:00 PM EST
    why not just put up Jon Huntsman for Sec of State? He has the necessary experience, he's got respect on diplomacy, he's a moderate, and he's apparently fed up with the nutcases in the GOP.

    I beg to agree (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Yman on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:28:17 PM EST
    See if you can tell the difference between voting for the AUMF (as opposed to voting "for the Iraq War") and what Powell did.

    Powell (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by sj on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 09:36:46 AM EST
    has been without honor at least since My Lai, a huge blot on the even bigger blot of the Viet Nam war.

    Bob Kerrey and Robert Byrd (none / 0) (#98)
    by Politalkix on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 11:33:20 AM EST
    Colin Powell had less direct involvement in My Lai than Bob Kerrey. Robert Byrd was a wonderful Senator in his later life despite his association with the Ku Klux Klan during his youth. Harry Truman also ordered dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, an action that killed millions on non combatants-women, children, sick and the old. How many of you are willing to say that President Truman "lived without honor" since he ordered the annihilation of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
    Life is complicated. Colin Powell has also done a lot of good things in his life, your lashing out at him in such strong language is without merit, in my opinion.

    None of those (none / 0) (#100)
    by sj on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 11:57:41 AM EST
    people have anything to do with Colin Powell.  And I actually do believe in redemption.  

    But if you read any of those links you know that he was chosen for the sham investigation of My Lai because he was viewed as a "team player".  Clearly he was still a "team player" when he made the presentation to the UN on the behalf of the Bush administration all those many years later.  A presentation that he now tries to repudiate by saying that "some intelligence agents knew the information he had was unreliable but did not speak up."  

    He is ultimately responsible for the information he provides.  Not some nameless "intelligence agents".  And by the way, that presentation was questioned on its face on the very day it was made, although not by the official press.  I'm sure you can find links to the information in Atrios' and DKos' archives contemporaneous to the presentation if you are really interested in the truth.  

    He is still a man without honor.  As he was before.  He is good, however, at masking that.


    I am willing to say that (none / 0) (#101)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 11:58:44 AM EST
    Truman lived without honor :).

    I don't know much about Powell on a personal level, his backing of the Bush administration before the UN left me devastated in a way because he has done some decent things in this world too.  I can understand more so what took place with Vietnam, because the denial was so thick.  I'll die with the scar of his UN demonstration though, it sealed the Iraq War fate.  I could still have him as Sec Def though now.

    I know a bit about Kerrey personally, from what I know, he will use ANYTHING that gets him ahead.  He has always had an out of control moral compass.  His true North is what gets him what he wants for himself.


    Doing "some decent things" (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by sj on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 12:15:08 PM EST
    makes him multidimensional (like all other human beings) rather than a cartoon villain.  But when the rubber meets the road he is a "team player".

    True, well said (none / 0) (#108)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 09:07:46 PM EST
    I am certain of Powell's caring for his country and its people.  I can have him as Sec Def.  I belief the position suits him better that SoS did.

    MT (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Politalkix on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 12:16:41 PM EST
    I like your posts for your honesty. I think that Colin Powell will be good as both Sec of Defense or Sec of Energy (make Energy an issue of national security, elevate the energy secy's position to that of the big 3-treasury, state and defense and make the case of infrastructure spending). We got our interstate highways because Pres. Eisenhower promoted infrastructure building as a national security issue.

    I could do either one if I had to (none / 0) (#90)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 07:43:54 AM EST
    Already holiday busy so thanks for giving me this rundown.  I don't have to go fishing for it in my precious free time.

    I don't see either one of those picks being a thorn in the side of the administration and where our military must go from here.

    I would rather it not be Powell though after his UN act.  I think the Secretary of State is a more important and influential position than our Secretary of Defense in the grand picture.  If I have concerns I'll save them for who will take that position.


    There was much interest (none / 0) (#33)
    by KeysDan on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:24:53 PM EST
    in the initial selection of cabinet members, what with gilded references to "A Team of Rivals,"  a story of the Lincoln administration by  Doris Kearns Goodwin.  

    However, with the exception of Secretaries Clinton and Geithner, the cabinet officers seem to have assumed, in large measure,  a low public profile in this administration.  Policy is White House-centric and often the face of the administration, if not the president, is a White House operative such as David Axelrod.  

    Since this is, apparently, the desired administrative style, perhaps cabinet officer replacements should be selected from among expert career professionals in the field.    The days of selecting politicians for these key administrative posts may well have past.  An experienced and well-liked politician going in may soon become an unpopular one as decisions are made.  And, to possibly forfeit a senate position in a cabinet appointment clearly outweighs the advantages.


    Nah, you don't need an expert (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:30:55 PM EST
    Taking the Joint Chiefs in hand....the whole Pentagon is full of experts.  Too many experts, they can't tell when they have gone off the deep end because they are experts :)

    Re the medals... (none / 0) (#70)
    by lentinel on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 07:21:06 PM EST
    For me, this was a thing of interest. Potentially a thing of honor and courage. Potentially a sign of a person with leadership ability. It was the action of someone who was aware of the terrible reality of the war in Vietnam - and its origins from a lying administration with an agenda...

    Then came the Iraq resolution - transparently the same playbook - and Kerry went for it hook, line and sinker.

    Ambition and the good life took its toll on Kerry's integrity - if it was genuinely there in the first place.


    I haven't followed this all that closely (none / 0) (#36)
    by lilburro on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:38:21 PM EST
    not close enough to suggest how the Obama Administration could be handling the political situation differently, for example.  That said I am glad Obama is still standing behind Rice, and I hope they jam her down the GOP's throats as SOS.  I don't know if they will but it's as much backbone as has been reported coming from Ds outside of an election cycle for a while.

    Help us out here :) (none / 0) (#21)
    by sj on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 11:21:01 AM EST
    I have no idea who this person is, or what his story is.  No way can I watch a bunch of videos and I can't tell from your links...

    I did a detailed post (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:02:57 PM EST
    on Psy here over the weekend.

    Yes, I read that :) (none / 0) (#38)
    by sj on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 01:47:08 PM EST
    My orphaned comment was misleading.  It was originally attached to Deb's comment which has since been deleted due to skewed URLs.

    Multi-dimensional chess move possibility... (none / 0) (#28)
    by unitron on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 12:37:40 PM EST
    ...It's no secret that Biden has been interested in the SOS job, so line up someone else to be veep who has a good shot at being elected Prez in 2016, and move Joe to State.

    That would be the best idea yet (none / 0) (#43)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 02:44:22 PM EST
    I hope it happens.

    ... Biden's replacement as vice president. What happens when he or she gets filibustered by the Republicans, which we can probably count on happening? Let's face it, these guys would probably filibuster an Easter Egg hunt if one ever came up for congressional approval.

    True, could be our worst nightmare (none / 0) (#55)
    by ruffian on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 03:53:47 PM EST
    Obama would nominate Lieberman or someone worse to avoid a filibuster!

    On second thought, maybe we shouldn't ... (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 04:07:25 PM EST
    ... let our imaginations run amock like this. We all seem to enjoy mocking the concept of "11-Dimensional Chess," yet sometimes we seem to be playing our own particular version in our own heads, to the point where we're practically ready to condemn elected officials prospectively for things that may not ever occur in the future.

    What I had in mind was someone young enough... (none / 0) (#97)
    by unitron on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 11:29:53 AM EST
    ...and un-Lieberman enough to run in 2016.

    I don't want Lieberman allowed any closer to the White House than I do Palin.

    And I do want someone as unacceptable to the right as Obama is, so as not to give someone the idea that assassination would bring about something they like better.


    Big night here in the Rose City. (none / 0) (#54)
    by caseyOR on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 03:51:16 PM EST
    On the east side of the Willamette River we have Bruce Springsteen appearing at the Rose Garden.

    On the west side we have the U.S. Women's National Soccer Team appearing at Jeld-Wen Field in a match with Ireland.

    I learned today, from reading the newspaper, that Abbie Wambach recently bought a house in Portland. She joins Megan Rapinoe who lives in a condo in the Pearl District of downtown Portland.

    Rapinoe attended college here, but Wambach is a newbie. We welcome both of them because Portlanders love soccer and soccer players.

    Maybe they will both snag spots on the new professional women's soccer team being formed here.

    So, are you ... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 04:08:37 PM EST
    ... going to see the Boss?

    Sadly, no I am not going to see the Boss (none / 0) (#63)
    by caseyOR on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 05:58:23 PM EST
    tonight. Nor am I going to see the soccer players.  :-(

    One word: (none / 0) (#58)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 05:15:31 PM EST
    Oh, who the heck knows (none / 0) (#60)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 05:38:29 PM EST
    why parents do such things?  My mother-in-law was a lab technician at a big-city hospital many, may years ago (before she went back to school to get her Ph.D. in physiology), and she told us that a parent there had named her newborn daughter "Urethra," at the suggestion of an intern with an abominable sense of humor.  I kid you not.  Poor child!
    Better "Hashtag" than "Urethra."

    It's like the one I heard, that I have no (5.00 / 3) (#72)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 07:45:00 PM EST
    idea is true, about the woman who named her kid "Nosmo King" - from the "No Smoking" sign, and the one who settled on "Lemongelo" from the "Lemon Jello" on the menu.

    My daughter is due to have her baby any time now - due 12/11, but ultrasound yesterday shows he could be close to 9 pounds already, so we're thinking it might be sooner.  She would like it to be sooner, that's for sure.  She told me that on the pregnancy forum she participates in, someone started a thread with "You know you're really, really pregnant when..." and one of the women wrote, "when you drop your shampoo in the shower, and you just look at it for a minute and then tell yourself your hair isn't really that dirty."

    I am happy to say that the name they have chosed for the apparently not-so-little guy is a nice, normal name no one will make fun of or that he'll want to change in 20 years!

    We're on pins and needles at this point - I keep forgetting about Christmas because all I can think about is baby, baby, baby!!!


    New babies and Xmas are a good mix. (none / 0) (#78)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 09:41:39 PM EST
    Best wishes to you and your daughter's family as you await the blessed event.

    Thanks, Donald... (none / 0) (#80)
    by Anne on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 09:44:52 PM EST
    it really is the most exciting time!

    It really, really is! (none / 0) (#86)
    by Amiss on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 01:01:03 AM EST
    My daughter,light of my   life has her 40th coming on Dec.8.
    Day aafter Pearl Harbor.
    Her resent arrived today, but I had already made a deal with her hubby. She was shocked that wwe wwould think of cutting her off before it was delivered.
    Too funny!

    Oh, very exciting Anne! (none / 0) (#84)
    by ruffian on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 12:16:53 AM EST
    That is a big baby! What a happy time for you all.

    I have a friend about to have twins...hoping she can hang on until the last week in December!  


    Not sure what the origin of this first name (none / 0) (#89)
    by MO Blue on Thu Nov 29, 2012 at 07:38:22 AM EST
    is but I asked why when I heard when it when watching a football game on Thanksgiving.


    If anyone knows, I would be interested in hearing the explanation.


    How about naming your daughter (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by vml68 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 10:35:49 PM EST
    "Chlamidya", because it sounds pretty. True story!!

    I have also heard of twins named Lemonjello and Orangejello (pronounced Lem-ahn-gelo and Or-ahn-gelo) and my personal favorite La-a (pronounced Ladasha)!!!


    They had no idea, they just thought the name sounded cool...

    Still, I'd rather (none / 0) (#65)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 06:03:45 PM EST
    be named "Soma" than "Urethra."
    Geez, what are parents thinking?????    ;-)

    And (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by lentinel on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 07:13:27 PM EST
    didn't Cher name her daughter "Chastity"?

    What was she thinking?

    Give me "Soma" any day.


    Yes (none / 0) (#73)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 07:46:16 PM EST
    Although, Cher's daughter is now her son-  Chaz Bono.

    Ya, I agree. (none / 0) (#66)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 06:05:44 PM EST
    Maybe they were into the ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 06:26:01 PM EST
    ... biker / leather scene in San Francisco, and used to hang out in the South of Market (aka "SoMa") District.

    Either that, (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 06:41:35 PM EST
    or they were great fans of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.  That's the first thing I thought of, at any rate.  ;-)

    I heard at an ER (none / 0) (#74)
    by the capstan on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 07:53:32 PM EST
    that some Nola obstetric interns suggested to a grateful new mother that she  name her child 'Vagina.'

    Well, it would not (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Zorba on Wed Nov 28, 2012 at 08:34:37 PM EST
    particularly surprise me if this is true.  Interns can have really, really abominable senses of humor.    ;-)