Friday Morning Open Thread

Bonus Friday college football picks (all picks 2 units):

Arizona -3 over Arizona State, Cincinnati -14 over South Florida, Washington State +14 over Washington, Nebraska -15 over Iowa, LSU -12 over Arkansas, Utah -23 over Colorado, Iowa State +1 over West Virginia, Ohio +9 over Kent State, and Syracuse -8 over Temple.

For kdog:

Open Thread.

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    FINAL: Kent State 28, Ohio 6. (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:24:07 PM EST
    Next up for the No. 23 Golden Flashes, who've now won eleven straight, is a date with No. 24 Northern Illinois next weekend in the MAC championship game. That should be a great matchup.

    2016 (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by lentinel on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:37:18 PM EST
    Seems like the talk is all about Jeb Bush.

    Wouldn't that be great?

    Another Bush.

    Two is not enough.

    One a-hole. Another war criminal. And now....

    A twit - excuse me - a "uniter".

    God how I love dynasties.

    Oh, screw that dynasty nonsense. (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:45:57 PM EST
    The bad thing about Jeb is not that other members of his family were president. The bad thing is that they were such BAD presidents, and Jeb shows very indication that he would also be a bad president.

     What does it matter how many members of a family hold office as long as they are doing good work? If a politician is promoting good policies, and by good I mean ones with which I agree, then it I don't care if she is the 6th generation to serve or the 1st.


    I object to Jeb because he is part of (5.00 / 2) (#31)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 06:41:25 PM EST
    All americans have a right to run for public office and should not be precluded because they happen to be related to someone who also served.  But if their relative sucked eggs, then the people have every right not to vote for them unless they can be convinced otherwise.
    Jeb Bush is a sleazy unethical businessman. This I know from personal experience.  I see no reason to believe he would be any different as president.

    I'd offer that the Bush family's ... (none / 0) (#34)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 07:35:39 PM EST
    ... ethics have been suspect since the days of the Great Depression.

    According to a report aired on the BBC a few years ago, Prescott Bush and his father-in-law George Walker were both implicated in a right-wing scheme to overthrow newly elected President Franklin Roosevelt in 1933 through a military coup. They were first identified by Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler, USMC, who told the House Committee on un-American Activities of the plot.

    Further, William Dodd, U.S. Ambassador to Germany, strongly alluded to Bush's and Walker's relationship with Nazi Germany in a 1936 public letter during that year's presidential elections, in which he warned that Roosevelt's defeat would lead to the imposition of a fascist dictatorship by Wall Street financiers:

    "A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime."

    And still further, public documents obtained by The Guardian reveal that the firm he worked for, Brown Brothers Harriman, acted as a conduit for German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, who helped finance Hitler and the Nazis during their rise to and consolidation of power in the 1930s.

    Bush was also the director of the Union Banking Corporation, which represented Thyssen's U.S. interests, and he continued to work for the bank after America entered the war in December 1941. Union Bank was siezed by the federal government in 1942 for violations of the Trading With the Enemy Act.


    thanks Don (none / 0) (#98)
    by TeresaInPa on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 06:31:35 PM EST
    I knew some of that, not all of it.  It amazes me that we never seem to hear the real stuff until the election is over, if we ever really hear it at all.  

    And there's the JFK assassination link (none / 0) (#104)
    by Towanda on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 06:42:38 PM EST
    to the first President Bush, when he was with the CIA.  From The Nation.

    You know, it's been a little more than ... (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 02:07:24 PM EST
    "Goddamn it, I'm exhausted!"
    - Lili von Schtupp (Madeleine Kahn), Blazing Saddles (1974)

    ... two weeks since the 2012 elections, and personally, I'm rather tired of talking about presidential politics. Further, I think all the immediate speculation on the nature and shape of the 2016 campaign is premature to the point of phuquing insane.

    And since we're now officially in the holiday season and it's crunch time in college and pro football, let's please try to enjoy that, and not ruin everything with a nightmarish vision of Bushes dancing in our heads. There's plenty of time for that in, let's say, the fourth quarter of 2015.



    Please, Don... (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by lentinel on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 03:09:29 AM EST
    You were happily posting about Palin just the other day...
    Give it a rest.

    You first. (1.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 03:49:19 PM EST
    But then, I was actually out in the field campaigning the least five months, door-to-door, phonebanking, etc. -- while as a founding member of the 101st Internet Division, aka "The Fighting Keyboards," you obviously never broke a sweat and are probably not tired.

    and TL is a political crime blog... (none / 0) (#51)
    by fishcamp on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 08:59:53 AM EST
    Jeb and Rubio (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:40:28 PM EST
    Can a ticket be comprised of candidates both hailing from the same state?

    God, I (none / 0) (#46)
    by Amiss on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 02:27:21 AM EST
    Hope not. The only thing I ever saw him do as Governor was make news casts about hurricanes. Under republican rule, the state has fallen so far down the ladder, one can't even find it.

    However. in a show about Wal-Mart, FL. ranks number one with over 12,000 families that work there receiving some type of public assistance.


    Larry Hagman has died at age 81. (5.00 / 3) (#45)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 11:50:27 PM EST
    Hagman, best known for his portrayal of JR Ewing in the nighttime soap opera Dallas,died today of complications from throat cancer. He survived bouts with liver cancer and cirrhosis of the liver in the "90s.

    While everyone remembers Hagman as Ewing, the role i first knew him in was as Major Anthony Nelson in I Dream of Jeannie.
    What I didn't know was that he was the son of Broadway star Mary Martin.

    RIP, Larry Hagman.

    Jeebus I Hate To Say It (none / 0) (#1)
    by bmaz on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 09:44:01 AM EST
    But have to agree with you on the UofA - ASU game. If it were in Tempe, I would take the Devils, but it is in Tucson this year and I think they win outright.

    Armando, hope you Jeralyn both had a great Thanksgiving.

    Reading around this morning (none / 0) (#2)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 09:56:35 AM EST
    About the racism of the Republican Party because my perceptions seemed to be so divergent from others.  I found a a very good article on the topic by Ron Rosenbaum from October.

    MT, a little logic please (2.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:38:45 AM EST
    From the article:

    "No, I'm not saying all Republicans are racist. I'm saying that as a party, ever since Goldwater and Nixon concocted the benighted, openly racist "Southern Strategy" in the '60s, the Republican Party has profited from overt and covert racism."

    Now given your comment that around 90% of blacks voted for Obama and acknowledging their overall support for Democrats....

    Can we agree that the Democratic party profits from its own racism??


    Uhhhm, no, we can't agree ... (5.00 / 3) (#61)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:49:10 AM EST
    "Blacks" have voted @ 90% for ALL Democratic candidates - not just Obama.  If they were voting for Obama due to racism, why did Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Gore and Kerry also receive @ 90% of the AA vote?

    (sound of crickets chirping ...)


    Boy you Conservatives would like to play (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 12:29:11 PM EST
    Your own racism card, but you just can't get the numbers to fit.  I understand why you are afraid though.  You have terrorized certain people who now are beginning to have some say.

    MT that article was terrible (none / 0) (#5)
    by republicratitarian on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 11:57:54 AM EST
    Nothing agravates me more than to listen to some BS like that. Having grown up in the South and living in the South my blood pressure just went up 50 points. Are there racists in the Republican party? Absolutely. Are there racists in the Democratic party? Hell yes.

    I don't even know where to begin to shoot holes in that race baiting article.

    I'm sorry for being on my soap box but I can't stand ignorant generalities like all Southern white people are racist. It's not even close to the truth and it offends the $hit out of me.

    MT I usually appreciate most of your posts on here but this one is over the line for me.


    Genrally, Rural white Southerners ... (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:06:51 PM EST
    ... bought into the "Obama wasn't born here" meme in far larger margins than did everyone else across the country. From North Carolina:

    "PPP released another poll of North Carolina voters this week that had similar findings, with only 54% of respondents saying with certainty that they believe Obama was born in the United States, 26% saying he was not and 20% unsure. There's a big divide by political party, with only 24% of N.C. Republicans believing Obama was born in the United States compared to 63% of Independents and 75% of Democrats." (Emphasis is mine.)

    From South Carolina:

    "A new poll of registered South Carolina voters shows that, among other things, the birther movement is alive and well in the Palmetto State.
    Among Republicans and Republican-leaning independents (henceforth referred to as RRLs), who were the focus of the Winthrop University study, 75 percent said the term "socialist" describes President Barack Obama well or very well. Thirty percent of the same group said Obama is a Muslim; 36 percent said he was definitely or probably born in another country. [...] An April poll of the same population, taken in the wake of Donald Trump's birther proclamations and before the White House had published Obama's long-form birth certificate, showed 41 percent of RRLs saying the president was definitely or probably born in another country." (Emphasis is mine.)

    Further, the Washington Post's Kathleen Parker, herself a white Southern Republican, noted back in August 2009 when since-retired Sen. John Voinivich (R-OH) charged that Southern whites were leading the GOP to grief:

    "Alas, Voinovich was not entirely wrong. Not all Southern Republicans are wing nuts. Nor does the GOP have a monopoly on ignorance or racism. And, the South, for all its sins, is also lush with beauty, grace and mystery. Nevertheless, it is true that the GOP is fast becoming regionalized below the Mason-Dixon line and increasingly associated with some of the South's worst ideas. [...] In a poll commissioned by the liberal blog Daily Kos, participants were asked: 'Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?' Hefty majorities in the Northeast, the Midwest and the West believe Obama was born in the United States. But in the land of cotton, where old times are not by God forgotten, only 47 percent believe Obama was born in America and 30 percent aren't sure. Southern Republicans, it seems, have seceded from sanity." (Emphasis is mine.)

    I'm sorry if you're offended by what's been noted here, but it is what it is. I suppose that were I white and living in the South, I might very well take exception to the notion myself and decry its sweeping generalization.

    You're absolutely right in stating that not all Southerners are racists, and further that distinct pockets of racism are also alive and well up north. Hell, I could introduce you to more than a few members of my father's immediate family in northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin, who would no doubt be happy to prove the latter point.

    That said, however, as numerous polls repeatedly bore out over his first term and the late campaign, and which the 2012 election results later confirmed, far many more citizens down South were ready to vote against the president on the basis of his race than elsewhere in the country.



    Donald (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:27:07 AM EST
    How do you justify some 90% plus blacks voting for Obama? Did they all carefully analyze his policy positions and decide they agreed with them?

    And as you answer that question, could you tell me what you would call whites who voted in the 90% range for Romney??

    To help, I give you MT's:

    "but please note what has been put up in this thread that only 10% of MS white voters and 15% of AL white voters voted for Obama.  Kind of crazy stats bordering on flat scary......I maintain that where I live, speaking out against blatant racism comes with a specific risk involved and it is meant to."

    It is obvious from those numbers that SOME people of both races voted for their candidate solely on race.



    Try again, Jim (5.00 / 3) (#64)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:52:56 AM EST
    How do you justify some 90% plus blacks voting for Obama?

    Because Obama was a Democrat.

    That was easy.

    But I understand why you'd want to remain in denial and try to create false equivalencies re: Republicans, the Southern strategy and racism in general.


    And it didn't work/ (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 03:52:27 PM EST
    The Republicans still lost.

    Al Gore got 90% of (5.00 / 3) (#78)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 03:43:54 PM EST
    the African American vote.  Obama may have goosed the numbers a little bit because he was Black.

    Planet Wingnut (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by jondee on Mon Nov 26, 2012 at 01:23:28 PM EST
    never seems to get around to mentioning the 68% of Jews, 70% of Asian Americans, and very high % of Americans with graduate degrees who voted for Obama..

    Those incovenient facts don't fit as well into their current, crypto-racist "takers" script..

    Takes alot of manure to grow that Tall Cotton..


    I would like it if you did (none / 0) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 12:14:20 PM EST
    Please do shoot holes in it.  I'd love for it to be my perception that was all wrong because I can fix that a lot more easily.  What about the cited studies?

    I think one of the things that electing Obama did was bring a lot of the covert racism out in the Republican Party and it has exposed itself in a vicious backlash.  I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing either.  It is hard to quit doing something that you are in denial of even doing because it is so covert and deep-seated.

    It offends me also that so much of the South incorporated the Confederate flag into different forms and demands we respect it.


    the racist south (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by the capstan on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 12:35:42 PM EST
     In other words, should historically racist states be treated as equal to states that did not legally institute racism by the courts when it comes to voter discrimination?

    Well, essentially 'yes' if we actually believe in equality.  I believe the article did mention in passing Carter and Clinton.  (And did not mention Johnson, btw..)  Seems like maybe northern folk might recognize that the south can vote democratic when a southerner is on the ticket.  Maybe southerners get tired of the being considered backward redneck dunces, but rally to support other southerners.

    As to the racism of individual southerners, yes, it exists.  But it is not a strictly southern attitude.  A large number of blacks moved back south after their civicl rights were assured here.  And word was that there was a more accepting view of them here in some ways.  Even it that were not so, I can guarantee it was white southerners who often fought hardest for black equality.  All all have to do is look around this South Carolina town to see the result: black and white as friends and playmates, as lovers, as families.  Quite frankly, the future of the white race is to become brown folk.  We will someday be no more black or white except in small pockets.  The future is brown (whether Asian or African or


    Sorry about uncorrected (none / 0) (#8)
    by the capstan on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 12:43:05 PM EST
    typos and unfinished sentences: my new version of Linux is buggy and if I type too long, it somehow looses connection with the keyboard.  Then I have to restart the computer--and usually lose what I wrote.

    Everything worked when I first upgraded the OS .  Then shutting the computer down took two tries.  That got fixed recently.  Please, gods of the computer, fix this soon too!


    I'm not saying that racism is confined to the (none / 0) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    South, it takes on a different dimension here though.  And I am certain that white Southerners have fought for the rights of other skin tones at times, but where I live I have NEVER.....not once....heard anyone speak out when someone here was saying horrible racist things publicly.

    Some of our new friends are what is termed an inter-racial couple. She is black and raised in San Antonio.  She does not know what to make of it here.  They are retired military working as civilians at Fort Rucker, they live off post.  Friendships are very difficult, they feel very isolated.

    Considering the family roots that many African Americans have in Alabama, the AA population in this state is surprisingly low IMO.


    As a southernor, (none / 0) (#47)
    by Amiss on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 02:51:46 AM EST
    I can say I married a Northernor. I was in shock at the attitude by the majority of his family toward bi-racial couples.

    And it was from people at TL that I learned (none / 0) (#54)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:10:52 AM EST
    How racist some portions of Indiana are.  That is where my husband's Aunt lives who swears I am the devil.  I get to be shielded from some of that or at least have a healthy place to hang out because interracial couples and families are all over the post.  I never liked doing post family activities much.  I thought it gave you too much of a military mindset, but I am happier here on post so have started doing more and more of my social activities in that social setting now.  It was a shift that happened on its own over time.

    I doubt if this occurred to you (none / 0) (#97)
    by Rojas on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 05:22:09 PM EST
    Perhaps you simply do not have sufficient life experience to speak to this issue objectively.

    You doubt if what occurred to me? (none / 0) (#102)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 12:28:32 PM EST
    Also, I will say it again (none / 0) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:06:50 PM EST
    As far as alluding to Southerners not voting for Democrats unless they are white guys from the South, are you also trying to tell me that Southerners have chosen poison policies to support because they are pouting?

     Sorry, just can't fathom adults making the most important decisions any of us make as if they are petulant five year olds.


    The signs of physical disrespect (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 03:57:28 PM EST
    shown this President by Republican officials has been stunning and unprecedented.

    The "You lie" comment by Joe Wilson during the State of the Union was just the start.  You had Jan Brewer waggin her finger in Obama's face.  All that was missing was her call him "boy."  And Romney was openly contemptuous.  

    Not even Bill Clinton during the height of Impeachment faced this level of in person physical disrespect.      


    I did not vote for Obama either time (2.25 / 4) (#35)
    by TeresaInPa on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 07:49:44 PM EST
    I did not vote for him because 5-31-08 and ballot box stuffing in TX.  But mostly I did not vote for him because of race baiting and exploitation of sexism by his campaign.  While claiming to be post racial or whatever the BS term was they used, they never shut up about race and neither did their supporters and apparently they still have not. They chose to divide the democratic party over racism and sexism and went on to divide the nation on the same two topics.  Everyone who opposed him got labeled. Every women who ran against him got the worst of sexist treatment imaginable.  The last straw for me was an email from my BIL, a sexist cartoon of Palin calling her Caribou Barbie, and realizing that they had chosen to run against her rather than McCain and to do it in the crudest of sexist terms.
    Those are the policies that I find poison.  I find them much more poison than the little bit of difference between Obama's SS reform and Romney's SS reform.
    Want to talk racism?  It used to be that we would say, black people can be racist, but it means nothing because they do not have the institutional power to make their racism punishing.   Well now we have a black president and lots of powerful African Americans and people of other minority groups running things.  The president said that "typical white women" say things that make him cringe.  If dubya had said "In many ways Condi is a typical black woman, sometimes she says things that makes me cringe", would you have called him a racist?  Yes you would, because first of all you would say, "what is a TYPICAL black woman?".
    So, Obama is a racist and he is the leader of our party.  That makes the Democrats the party of racism and sexism. You voted for him.  Did you puke your guts out in the gutter after voting for him and other democrats?

    Glenn Beck could not have said it better (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:08:04 PM EST
    TeresaInPa, this is the most offensive, race-baiting post I have read in quite some time.  Worse than Sununu, who called Obama lazy and stupid.  Your attitude is a great reminder of the very destructive attitudes on race that still exist.

    Glenn Beck called Obama a racist who hates White people.  You join his illustrious ranks.

    For some, the only racism they see is reverse racism against Whites.  That is the tenor of your entire post.

    I am truly astonished at the vitriol here.

    Aside:  How many people actually forget that Obama is half white, and during his entire youth all of his family and those who raised him were White?  His Black father visited him for a few weeks.  Aside from that, Obama is a product of White or perhaps to some extent Indonesian culture.


    Obama is not a bitter, resentful race baiter (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:59:09 PM EST
    That is just plain wrong.

    Obama's greatest fault, many here would say and I would tend to agree is a problem, is his desire to find common ground all the time.  This stems from his desire to find racial harmony, and I would argue the emphasis on harmony in the Hawaiian culture.  

    Clearly, I am astonished at your post.


    TeresaInPa (2.67 / 3) (#39)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 08:42:42 PM EST
    I feel sorry for you. I really feel sorry for a person who has to take recourse to such falsehoods to justify not voting for BHO in 2008 and 2012 (it is a free country and people can chose not to vote for anyone that they do not want to vote for, so no justification or defensiveness is necessary). I feel sorry for a person who could turn a blind eye that allowed her not to notice the provocative filth that gushed out from the HRC and McCain-Palin campaign to demean BHO and his supporters. Here is an example. I received the picture in an email from a person who was a Palin supporter. He had also forwarded this picture to a HRC supporter who enjoyed it and once again forwarded it to me. Both of them were aware that I liked Obama but had not discussed politics directly with me before they sent the picture.
    Thankfully the majority of people in the country are not like you or the people who forwarded the picture to me.



    The HRC campaign?!? BS (5.00 / 3) (#90)
    by Yman on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:45:20 PM EST
    I feel sorry for a person who could turn a blind eye that allowed her not to notice the provocative filth that gushed out from the HRC and McCain-Palin campaign to demean BHO and his supporters. Here is an example.

    I feel sorry for someone who's still desperately trying (and failing) to conflate the HRC campaign with genuine racist polys and rants ... 4 years later.

    Love to see some examples of that "filth" from the HRC campaign, but since it only exists in your head ...


    "Caribou Barbie" was a legitimate issue. (1.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 08:11:39 PM EST
    Honestly, Sarah Palin knows little or nothing about sound policy development. She's nothing but an ideologue who blustered her way into the Alaska governor's office in 2006, and every time she opens her mouth to talk about isues, I wonder whether she could even find the open end of a paper bag while using illustrated instructions.

    That someone so astonishingly and profoundly ignorant could have potentially been placed a heartbeat away from the presidency was a legitimate topic for debate in the 2008 campaign.

    As Tip O'Neill loved to say, politics ain't beanbag.


    Donald, it goes beyond that (5.00 / 1) (#84)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:16:09 PM EST
    Palin made appeals to her s*xuality to gain votes.   Her winking.....during a debate.  

    Can we forget Rich Lowry saying that he and other men saw "starbursts" when Palin winked at them?  She was overtly using her alleged s*x appeal to gain votes from men.  That makes her a Barbie candidate.

    And, no, Rich Lowry's comment was not like Tweety's in terms of excitement about a candidate.  Whatever you can say about Tweety's tingling it was not an overtly s*xual response.


    Yes, she did. (none / 0) (#89)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:41:32 PM EST
    Ms. Palin is without a doubt an attractive woman, and sad to say, some beautiful people of either sex aren't above using sexuality to manipulate others and get what they want. I chose to focus instead on Palin's willful ignorance.

    Safer that way (none / 0) (#95)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:51:31 PM EST
    5-31-08 (none / 0) (#88)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:40:48 PM EST
    I am not totally sure what this references but assume it comes down to the apportionment of delegates for Michigan and Florida in 2008.

    I would take a moment to consider that strong-arm tactics in Primaries are nothing new.  In fact, George McGovern in 1972 made the argument that you don't "change the rules during the middle of the game."  (Obama did not nefariously ruin all that came before by making this argument.)  McGovern won the California winner-take-all Primary and Humbert Hummphrey made any number of arguments how that it was unfair and undemocratic that the delegates were not apportioned according to the actual vote.  McGovern did not yield and won the nomination.  So, even McGovern, perhaps the party nominee most associated with democratizing the Primary process, still played hardball.  thus, McGovern insisted on enforcement of the "roolz" too.

    What Obama did in 2008 was hardly novel and was not dishonest.   Maybe heavy-handed and unwise for causing more grief than what he gained in extra delegates.  But the way the game has been historically played.  Obama mastered the rules and the process....That tactical ability helped him secure a win in 2012 in spite of 7.9% unemployment.



    "Typical white woman" (none / 0) (#94)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:50:45 PM EST
    You appear to be referring to the passage in Obama's book about his grandmother's fear of blacks in general.

    I just read that passage last night.  Your characterization of what Obama wrote comes shorn of context.  

    I would suggest you actually read the passage. He describes his grandmother Toot with great empathy, love  and understanding.  Even Jesse Jackson once said he has at times crossed the street to avoid young Blacks approaching him.....But it appears that you long ago came to certain conclusions....  


    I think racism (none / 0) (#103)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 at 01:03:47 PM EST
    Is a very difficult topic to discuss.  I did not take offense to what President Obama said about his grandmother because I have had such feelings at times too..and they embarrass me.  Why would I feel such an initial response.

    Some of the books in my house that are newer deal with how the brain makes assessments of danger.   When something is unfamiliar it can trigger all human beings.  The solution is to become more familiar with each other, spend more time together, do more together.  This will happen on its own over the course of generations.  In the meantime though I don't have to deny the reality I'm living in because it is considered rude to talk about by some.  That only prolongs healing.


    I don't call it (none / 0) (#23)
    by the capstan on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 02:31:03 PM EST
    petulent tor resent being tarred with the same brush as  the very lowest of the low among my neighbors.  And what's D. Trump's excuse?

    And I did not say that southerners ONLY vote for Dems who are white southerners.  We have black leaders who are democrats--but we sure as heck don't overflow with black republicans (or any republicans?) who are real leaders. Online I have a lot of email friends and in-laws of daughter who are republican.  But I only have one set of real live friends here who are republican--and one comes from LA and one comes from Ohio (via Wall Street).                    


    Would you say your Southern family (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 02:50:32 PM EST
    Voted for Obama?  And I'm not sure what state your family is mostly from but please note what has been put up in this thread that only 10% of MS white voters and 15% of AL white voters voted for Obama.  Kind of crazy stats bordering on flat scary.  These are the people I live with.  So when there is a possibility that 9 out of 10 people around you are going to put you on "their list" for speaking out against racism.....who is going to say anything at all?

    I maintain that where I live, speaking out against blatant racism comes with a specific risk involved and it is meant to.


    Every single member (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by the capstan on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 04:06:13 PM EST
    of my family voted for Obama--and they made sure I did too, tho I said my vote would not count in my county.  And I have not been just speaking out against racism, but working for EQUAL rights since I moved back south in 1965.  I gave the black kids rides to and from the ONE school, had them in my Scout troop and took them camping, joined with their parents in getting their retarded kids and mine a school and a ride to school, went to their church and took them to mine, joined my daughter in trying to get her best friend into our sorority, written articles for the newspaper--whatever you can think almost, I have done it.  I still have white friends and black friends and there are a whole bunch of forty- and fifty-year-olds in this town who learned not to judge others by the color of their skin but by the color of their character.  

    I am truly sorry for you, Tracey.  I don't have to worry about what people here think about me, because everyone here knows how I value my friends who are black, or immigrants, or gay, or retarded.


    I take it you are not in Alabama or Mississippi (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 09:59:33 AM EST
    Churches here appear to be segregated, there are many Cub Scout troops here as well and they march in the parades and they appear to be segregated too.  It is at this point self segregation.

    Take what Josh's science told his 7th grade class recently though.  They were looking at mortality rates in the US and whites have a higher mortality rate.  She told the class the reason for this is because whites have stronger immune systems.  Josh isn't stupid.  He knew what she was trying to teach him was not accurate and he was upset because he is pretty sure he knows what her under lying agenda is. We have been told though by people who care about Josh that if we make a formal complaint we will brand him as a problem within the school system.  I contacted another mom who has a son in the same class thinking that if there were more of us it is harder to single one child out.  She is terrified to say anything at all though, her son was already hazed in school last year because he told his classmates that he didn't believe in creationism.

    Things are not okay where I live, obviously worse than where you are.


    Sad to read this (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:22:54 PM EST
    Beyond racist, it is just plain stupid.  Who could really believe this in the 20th, let alone 21st Century?

    More evidence of my theory that culture and religion and racial attitudes, more than economic or foreign policy views, determines whether one votes for  Republicans.


    Choose God or Jail (none / 0) (#55)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:11:38 AM EST
    KY's had a law for about six years now which "requires the state's citizens to acknowledge the security provided by the Almighty God-or risk 12 months in prison." KY's Supreme Court won't touch it. Heaven help us! link

    This wonderful law is courtesy of

    Tom Riner, a Baptist minister and the long-time Democratic state representative, sponsored the law.

    Can't stop laughing (none / 0) (#57)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:20:10 AM EST
    It's called a Homeland Security law.  Crazy crazy crazy

    This post on the War on Christmas (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 09:08:50 PM EST
    should be good for another laugh.

    Christmas Wars: And Now, the Rest of the Story Number 5 for example:

    "You're just jealous we get presents and you don't. Yeah, it sucks to be you this time of year." Woah! Talk about, "shallow, mean, and spiteful". I don't know any atheists who don't get presents on Dec. 25th. They get presents on their birthdays, anniversaries, and sometimes Valentine's Days too. I don't think that sucks. In fact, I think it is in line with one of the most wonderful biblical concepts I know, "Give and ye shall receive." (Luke 6:38)

    Oops, sorry (none / 0) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:17:00 AM EST
    Blacks have a higher mortality rate...not whites

    yes, I do not doubt (none / 0) (#67)
    by the capstan on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 11:47:50 AM EST
    things are better here.  But recall that my efforts were mostly back in the 60's and 70's.  Back when Clemson U was integrated and blacks were killed during a riot in another college town.

     I am in the corner of SC not far at all from the mountains of GA and NC.  The people of Appalachia--which is a bit west of here--are always portrayed as ignorant and angry, but a lot of them were pro-union and anti-slavery:  "Lincoln's people."  They were insular, but fiercely independent; northern East TN. was 'occupied' by the Confederates.  

    BTW, I think you have a typo: if whites have a higher mortality rate, then they likely have a weaker immune system.  Whichever way you parse that sentence, it is wrong.  Blacks have a higher mortality rate and often die younger.  My son just wrote a study of prejudice and health.  Race is extremely important in medicine: normal white people have always gotten the best care.  And blacks have inherited the results of poor care.  (Read the book about Henrietta Lack.)  Gays and the disabled tend to be discarded by doctors also--but they  often do not have descendants.


    In point of fact, (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Zorba on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 12:37:07 PM EST
    I live in Appalachia (the Western Maryland part), a bit less than a half mile down the mountain from the Appalachian Trail.  And I do get mightily sick and tired of the stereotyping of all the people of Appalachia.  Yes, there are people here who I would categorize as ignorant racists (although not that many, and they are looked down upon by the rest of the community).  And there are also people here who are just hard-working, independent-minded people who accept everyone on equal terms.  They may not be "sophisticated" in the view of other Americans, but the majority of the people here are decent people.  They seem to care more about providing for their own families, and helping out those in need, than foaming at the mouth about politics.
    I would also point out that, during the period of the Civil War, when Virginia seceded from the Union, West Virginia seceded from Virginia.  Slavery certainly not the only, or maybe not even the primary, issue, but it was one of the reasons.

    I remember the time in the not too (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by MO Blue on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 12:43:58 PM EST
    distant past when a whole slew of us were Appalachians even though we did not live in or near the region.

    Having grown up in St. Louis, (none / 0) (#75)
    by Zorba on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 01:26:32 PM EST
    I certainly remember the stereotyping of those Missourians in the Ozarks region.  And many of us in Missouri were painted with this broad brush.
    We lived in Boston for a number of years after we were married, and I also remember the stereotyping of those who lived in South Boston.  "Southies," they were called.  And not in a positive way.
    Prejudice comes in many forms.  I would prefer to accept people individually.  People are people.  Some are good, some are not.  I do not accept that all people who live in a particular area are bad, nor do I accept that all people who live in another area are good.
    Let's face it, there are reasonable people everywhere, and there are ignorant people everywhere.

    West Virginia (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 01:47:44 PM EST
    In 2008, 41% of the white vote in West Virginia went to BHO. This is significantly higher than what BHO got in southern states like Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana (his numbers were in the low teens in these states). Some states in Appalachia have almost become impossible for Democrats to win at the Presidential level because of environmental issues. Coal mining and fracking is very important there. The Democratic Party is seen as the party of Al Gore's environmentalism.
    States like West Virginia did not vote for people like George Wallace in 1968 (unlike Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana). One can definitely make a credible argument that environmental and livelihood issues may have trumped all other concerns of voters in some parts of Appalachia.

    West Virginia is an anomaly (none / 0) (#77)
    by Zorba on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 02:44:20 PM EST
    when people talk about "the South."  Yes, coal mining, etc, are important there, I agree.  At the end of the day, it does get down to livelihood.
     And if the Democrats can solve the problem of jobs for average people, people without a college or other degree, so that they can work at jobs that bring in enough money for them to take care of their families, then the Republicans will become increasingly irrelevant.

    Yes, I caught my typo after I hit post (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 12:26:07 PM EST
    I am glad that my son brought home what his teacher was trying to teach so that I could have input.  There was a study a few years back on the plight of black women, particularly black mothers and how the long term never ending stress just to survive adds up to something that was termed erosion and their health collapses on them.

    I encounter here specifically that because it is more difficult for blacks to get reliable affordable healthcare here they have incorporated that culturally into avoiding healthcare.  It is less stressful and shameful to avoid instead of wish for such things.  It makes me infinitely sad though.


    I know a lot of elderly black women (none / 0) (#100)
    by the capstan on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 09:56:26 PM EST
    here.  Since there were only 2 doctors' offices in town, blacks and whites got the same care.  One office accepted medicaid, one did not.  I went with the doctor who took medicaid.  One of my black friends was loyal to the other doctor--she has seen doctors a lot more than I have, and I have an auto-immune disorder.  Maybe that office takes medicaid now, I hope!

    Another black friend's girls were the same age as mine.  I sometimes picked them up when they got sick at school to take them to the (non-medicaid) doctor.  Once I very nastily told the office staff that I would pay what she owed if that was the only way they'd treat her.  I think I shamed them into it.


    My family (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by Amiss on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 03:02:48 AM EST
    Including a daughter in NC. who volunteered for him all voted for BHO.

    This has to be a record (none / 0) (#3)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 09:57:56 AM EST
    That game was just sad. (none / 0) (#14)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:35:22 PM EST
    I didn't think it was possible for a pro team to do quite that much damage to itself in such a short amount of time. The Jets were so bad, so very bad,  that I almost wished they were doing it on purpose.

    I agree (none / 0) (#21)
    by MO Blue on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:59:09 PM EST
    The Jets were so bad, so very bad.....

    They almost had me thinking that maybe the Rams weren't so bad after all. Then of course sanity returned.....

    Not to take anything away from the Jets....the Rams really are pretty darn pathetic too.


    So Funny (none / 0) (#50)
    by Amiss on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 03:11:14 AM EST

    Heck... (none / 0) (#4)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 10:46:23 AM EST
    even Fireman Ed has given up on the J-E-T-S.  He left at halftime and deleted his Twitter account.  

    Cheer up Jets fans--you could root for the Eagles.  

    Not funny... (none / 0) (#18)
    by lilburro on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:53:08 PM EST
    but at least we've hit rock bottom (I think) and we can rebuild.  

    Think of it this way: (none / 0) (#20)
    by Zorba on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:57:22 PM EST
    There's nowhere to go but up!    ;-)

    SITE VIOLATOR hitting lots of old threads (none / 0) (#13)
    by caseyOR on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:30:43 PM EST
    Spammer sharon199 is hitting many old threads.

    Vote for BHO in the South (none / 0) (#19)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 01:54:22 PM EST
    Please compare how Southern whites voted Vs whites in the rest of the country.
    2012 and 2008

    Just examine the mumbers from Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana!

    What I would like to see is (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 04:37:15 PM EST
    the percentage of the white vote in the south Kerry got and Clinton got. That would tell you more than just what Obama got.

    Voting statistics (none / 0) (#29)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 06:20:22 PM EST
    1. Carter (1976) - 48%
    2. Clinton (1996) - 44
    3. Obama (2008) - 43
    4. Gore - 42
    5. Kerry - 41
    6. Dukakis - 40
    7. Clinton(1992) - 39
    8. Obama (2012) - 39
    9. Carter (1980) - 36
    10. Mondale - 34

    I have posted above the % of white votes that each Democratic Presidential nominee got over the years. When you consider the fact that Obama got 43% and 39% of the white vote (which is at par with Bill Clinton who had 39% and 44%) across the whole country after such a miserable performance in the south it is not difficult to see that Obama outperformed Clinton (and some other Democrats) among whites in most regions of the country except the South and Appalachia.

    That's what I thought. (none / 0) (#33)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 06:59:19 PM EST
    I was thinking that Lyndon Johnson back in 1964 was probably the last Democratic presidental nominee to receive more than 50% of the white vote, but I was simply too lazy to look it up. Thank you for the information.

    I was (none / 0) (#38)
    by Ga6thDem on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 08:12:33 PM EST
    wondering if there were any specific to the southern states? An interesting comparison would be Clinton vs. Obama numbers. 1992 is kind of a hard year to consider w/r/t to the white voters because even though it might have only been 39% that could have been about half the white voters if you took Perot out of the equation.

    3 candidate race (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 09:59:21 PM EST
    I've seen a lot of touts for Obama, but that he performed as well with white votes as Clinton is a new one.

    Really dumb.


    Whatever (none / 0) (#43)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 10:38:52 PM EST
    BHOs and Clinton's white vote maps were different. BHO could turn out the younger white vote better than Clinton in most places outside the South (excluding VA and NC) and Appalachia. Clinton did better in the South and Appalachia.
    The 3-candidate race argument is lame. Perot thrived because Clinton was weak among a certain portion of the white vote. Bloomberg or an American Elect candidate did not materialize because the opening was not there in 2012. Even those who ran (like Gary Johnson) did not make much impression.
    This is not about Clinton Vs Obama as much as some want it to be. The larger argument remains that (1) no Democrat since Johnson has received more than 50% of the national white vote (and much as people in this site want to tout Clinton, he did not do that either in 2 attempts) and (2) whites in the South vote differently than in the rest of the country. Obama got a higher percentage of the white vote even in places like Alaska, Utah, etc than he got in Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana.

    Clinton vote map in 1992 and 1996 (none / 0) (#44)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 11:16:47 PM EST
    A detailed diary where Clinton did better than Dukakis was posted in Daily Kos, some time ago.
    Please read it.

    It says "despite the variances between 1992 and 1996 and the confusing role played by Perot, Clinton's greatest improvements over Dukakis in either cycle almost certainly included Phoenix, the Los Angeles area, Delaware, Mid-Florida and South Florida, Chicagoland, the D.C. suburbs of Maryland and Virgnia, outer Detroit, New Hampshire, the Philadelphia suburbs in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, Long Island, and Columbus.

    The stereotypical "Clinton-esque" areas where he did well were mostly either in Georgia or in or around his home state of Arkansas, and/or in Al Gore's home state of Tennessee.  And whatever that was in the South Carolina district.

    I think this tells a pretty coherent story, and it's not the story you seem to usually hear about Bill Clinton's strengths and weaknesses."


    Who said "Clintonesque" areas? (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:50:22 AM EST
    That's your weird tangent.

    Clinton lost the white vote to the GOP candidate by 2 and 3 points respectively in 1992 and 1996.

    Obama lost the white vote to the GOP candidate by 12 and 20 points respectively.

    Only a fool would deny Clinton ran better with whites than Obama.

    The good news is that the demographic changes have made winning with the Dukakis coalition (check the numbers, Obama's demo breakdown in 2012 mirrors Dukakis' breakdown in 1988) an easy lift for Dems in Presidential elections.

    BTW, this is GREAT news.


    Actually (none / 0) (#52)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 09:28:24 AM EST
    the opening was there in 2012 for an America Elect candidate or some such but no one picked up the mantle.

    No one here is saying that Clinton won the white vote only that he did better than Obama with the white vote.


    Why is it so difficult (none / 0) (#62)
    by Politalkix on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:50:10 AM EST
    for Ga6th to accept that the "white vote" is not monolithic. As far as the overall white vote is concerned, the stats indicate that between the course of 2 elections, Clinton and BHO were almost at par (Clinton-39% and 44%; Obama-43% and 39%). Obama overperformed Clinton among whites in a lot of states (eg: Vermont, Iowa, Wisconsin, Oregon, Minnesota, etc) while Clinton did better than him in the South and Appalachia and Arizona.
    In a state like Vermont, even if you give the entire Perot vote to Clinton (in his better year, 1996), it does not equal what Obama got (in 2012).



    I'm pretty sure she accepts it (5.00 / 3) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:53:46 AM EST
    You just want people to pretend that the raw percentages are what matters in this comparison and want to pretend Gary Johnson was a Perot like figure that Obama beat back.

    That is just stupid.

    Clinton did what he thought he had to do to gain some white voting pockets, particularly in the suburbs.

    It would have been interesting to see what Clinton would have done in today demographic environment.

    In fact, it will be interesting to see what Hillary does if she runs in 2016.


    My posts at Big Orange (none / 0) (#66)
    by MKS on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 11:40:24 AM EST
    in favor of Hillary in 2016 were not received well.....No one would say they wouldn't vote for her, but it was more like no one wanted to start thinking about 2016 so soon.

    Perhaps you are better able to make the point.....It seems very obvious imo.


    This (5.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 12:46:13 PM EST
    should not have been a surprise to you. If the netroots have anything to do with it, Hillary will NEVER be the D party nominee.

    Huh? (none / 0) (#72)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 12:42:55 PM EST
    Where did I say the white vote was monolithic? Actually i said quite the opposite as I would like to see how the white vote strictly in the south fared with Obama vs. Clinton.

    Ha (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 10:41:14 AM EST
    You don't really believe this nonsense do you?

    Almost as bad as the Philly (none / 0) (#25)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 03:11:32 PM EST
    Area vote count for the evil Mitt.

    I'll agree that Mitt is evil. (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by Angel on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 03:38:14 PM EST
    Philly is not a state (none / 0) (#30)
    by Politalkix on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 06:40:10 PM EST
    The comparison of Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana should be with Pennsylvania.

    From our "The Great White North" file: (none / 0) (#32)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 06:55:36 PM EST
    Our neighbors in Canada seem to have the opposite problem when it comes to politicians making incredibly inappropriate and offensive remarks about entire sections of the country, in that it's the Liberals who've apparently been offering them:

    CBC News | November 22, 2012
    Trudeau campaign forced to address 2010 comments on Alberta - "Liberal leadership candidate Justin Trudeau is having to explain comments he made about Albertans in 2010, one day after fellow Liberal MP David McGuinty resigned his critic role over pointed comments about Alberta Conservative MPs. Sun Media published comments on Thursday that Trudeau made in a November 2010 interview in French on the Télé-Québec program Les Francs-tireurs (The Straight Shooters). In the interview, Trudeau seemed to take aim at Alberta politicians, and argued Canada was better off in the hands of leaders from Quebec. 'Canada isn't doing well right now because it's Albertans who control our community and socio-democratic agenda. It doesn't work,' Trudeau told interviewer Patrick Lagacé. ... Just a day earlier, Trudeau's caucus colleague [David] McGuinty apologized and resigned his role as Liberal energy critic after he was reported as saying Conservative MPs 'really should go back to Alberta' and run for the provincial legislature or municipal office if they weren't willing to adopt a national vision on energy policy."

    Justin Trudeau, 40, is the eldest of three sons born to the late Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau and Margaret Sinclair, who divorced in 1979. He is currently an announced candidate to become leader of his father's Liberal Party.

    In an ironic twist, Trudeau's opponent in the April 2013 party election will be Deborah Coyne, who had announced five weeks prior to Trudeau that she would be seeking the same post. Coyne was involved in a relationship with Justin's father for several years, and is the mother of the elder Trudeau's only daughter, born in 1991.

    It will be interesting to see whether these ill-advised remarks hurt Trudeau's candidacy for party leader. Not surprisingly, they were not well received by Albertans at all, and could be seen as having damaged the Liberal cause in the center of the country. He has apologized for them today in Vancouver.


    Does the SEC play fair? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 07:59:38 PM EST
    Chris Dufresne of the L.A. Times finally says in print what an increasing number of people have been grumbling about for some time now.:

    Los Angeles Times | November 23, 2012
    Does the SEC play fair? - "The Southeastern Conference has been accused of a lot of things through the years -- but a scam? The league is cutthroat, for sure, and often overzealous in praise of itself. The SEC is wildly talented and over the top, with many of its fans and announcers in serious need of decaffeinated coffee. [...] The SEC loves to brag of its football superiority in the Bowl Championship Series era, which is easy when you've won eight national titles and six in a row. It rarely speaks of its mistress, Lady Luck. [...] The thing the SEC does better than any conference is keep enough of its talented teams high enough in the rankings to pounce on any BCS opportunity. How the SEC positions itself is the subject of the latest inquiry."

    How else to explain why No. 3 Georgia could well find itself playing for a national championship this January, despite having played an extraordinarily weak schedule and getting creamed by South Carolina?

    People always grumble (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by CoralGables on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 09:18:31 PM EST
    about teams they can't beat.

    It's funny seeing an LA columnist complain. USC was ranked #1 to start the season and if they lose tomorrow they will be the first pre-season #1 ever to finish the season unranked. Guess he's just bitter.


    You're absolutely right. (none / 0) (#81)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 03:55:24 PM EST
    I mean, how can you beat teams that refuse to schedule a game with you?

    What teams? (none / 0) (#93)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:49:50 PM EST
    Who was not scheduled?

    This is a very ignorant line you have embraced here.

    It is just stupid and wrong.


    Truly idiotic article (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 09:57:49 PM EST
    Shocked to see a smart guy lime you touting it.

    I'll say to you what I said above to CG. (none / 0) (#85)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:18:57 PM EST
    How can any of the good teams in other conferences beat SEC teams, when those same SEC teams generally refuse to schedule games with them?

    At least USC and Boise State are not afraid to schedule tough nonconference opponents on a regular basis, even if it means going on the road.

    Aside from having to play Florida State in Tallahassee every other year, when was the last time University of Florida played a meaningful nonconference regular season road game? When was the last time they played a Pac-12 team? I bet I could go back four decades on both questions and still be able to count them all on one hand, with at least one or two fingers left over.

    Call me when the Gators start playing decent programs north of the Ohio and west of the Missouri occasionally. Until then, you're simply waving SEC pom-poms and being dismissive of something you don't like to hear, and you're not serious.


    On the day Florids is playing FSU (none / 0) (#91)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:46:14 PM EST
    your comment looks especially dumb.

    You always complain aboout the SEC (none / 0) (#68)
    by Amiss on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 12:16:55 PM EST
    Too bad the top 5 have 3 SEC teams. Bet if one of them happens to play for the championship, you will have a stroke!
    You know most consider your over-zealousness against the SEC as a real problem. All because the gators didn't travel thousands of miles to beat up on Hawaii, several years ago.
    At least the SEC for the most part don't run up their scores like other conferences do.What is so sportsmanlike about that? Isn't the same thing you accuse others of doing while at the same time really taking all the self-respect the losers have left

    Like someone else said about the political scene to you " Give it a rest, already"
    Just ONE weekend during the football season, I would ask that you withhold your constant criticism. Just once.


    You're not addressing the issue. (none / 0) (#87)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:32:19 PM EST
    Instead, you've chosen to make it personal by attacking me, which neatly sidesteps Dufresne's argument about the SEC's incestuous scheduling proclivities and answers nothing.

    He's not the only one who's currently saying that, and no doubt you'll be hearing more and more such criticism of the SEC if its members continue dining on cupcakes at home in their nonconference scheduling, rather than stepping up to schedule other good nonconference programs more than once a decade.


    Because it is a ridiculous argument (none / 0) (#92)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Nov 24, 2012 at 04:48:39 PM EST
    The SEC plays plenty of out of conference games against AQ teams.

    You are talking through your hat Donald,


    So very very (none / 0) (#101)
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    SITE VIOLATOR (none / 0) (#107)
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