Post- Final Debate Thread

,P. Update: CBS snap poll: 53% of uncommitted voters say Obama won. 23% Romney.
In a poll of 521 uncommitted voters conducted immediately after the final presidential debate, 53% of these said President Obama was the winner, 23% think Romney won, another 24% feel the debate was a tie.

Mitt's Pinocchio moment: The Apology Tour whopper. Washington Post: "Every fact checker has said the so-called ‘apology tour” did not happen. Here is the Fact Checker’s look at the 4-Pinocchio claim." [More...]

I think Obama killed Romney tonight. Did Romney even have a strategy or did he just decide to duck and avoid a major gaffe on foreign policy?

My ballot arrived in the mail today. It's time to vote.

Is anyone still undecided?

Your thoughts?

< Final Debate Live Thread | A Humble Foreign Policy >
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    Bob Schieffer paid tribute to Jim Lehrer (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:14:46 PM EST
    but turning in a similar performance (except that you could almost hear him snoring).

    Oh, and the President was prepared this time. If he'd been performing like this in debate one we'd be talking about how big the win would be. We may yet return to that, but I'm not optimistic.

    Are we sure Schieffer wasn't listening to (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:21:19 PM EST
    Game 7 on his Ipod?  Or the Bears game?

    I almost choked when he said "Obama bin Laden."

    Seriously, can't we do better than this?


    Yup, the "Obama bin Laden" moment (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:29:05 PM EST
    That's what happens when you phone it in.

    If I ran CBS News, I'd quite possibly be writing out a pink slip tonight.


    Well let's consider some numbers: (none / 0) (#87)
    by brodie on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 10:08:34 AM EST
    Schieffer is 75 yo.  Lehrer is 78.  Both have had serious health problems in recent years.

    Interesting other similarity:  both were young print reporters in Dallas (Lehrer) and Ft Worth (schieffer) and covered JFK's tragic visit there in 1963, with Schieffer getting a surprise call fom Oswald's mother helping to put him inside the story.

    So in two of the three presidential debates we had moderators so old that they were there covering the assassination 49 years ago.

    Though I didn't find Schieffer nearly as inept as Lehrer.


    If I ran (none / 0) (#89)
    by cal1942 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 10:30:31 AM EST
    CBS, NBC, ABC and CNN I'd spend months issuing pink slips.

    Some optimism from andgarden! (none / 0) (#18)
    by lilburro on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:31:38 PM EST
    I hope this does give Obama some breathing room.  IIRC after the last debate you were not as high on its impact as some of us.  

    I think my reaction to the last debate (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:35:18 PM EST
    has (sadly) proven to be quite plausible. For the peanut gallery, it was that the President improved substantially, but that he couldn't make up entirely for the disaster that was the first debate.

    If that's right, election night is going to be a long night. And it didn't have to be.


    The way I see it is that the first debate (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by observed on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 03:36:16 AM EST
    established Romney as a credible potential President. He can't un-pass that threshhold, and now he is positioned to get the votes of a lot of   people who aren't very happy with Obama.

    I agree with that (5.00 / 3) (#75)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:25:46 AM EST
    But luckily for Obama each subsequent debate and exposure to Romney does remind people that he is not very likable.

    I am not very fond of the notion that likeability plays a huge role in electability, but this year I hope it is true.


    You were right. (none / 0) (#34)
    by lilburro on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:43:40 PM EST
    Hopefully winning 2 of 3 counts for something, though.

    Seems like the polls settled on... (none / 0) (#37)
    by magster on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:46:25 PM EST
    ... an uncomfortable advantage to Obama based on Ohio. I think after tonight, VA CO NH and IA go back to Obama. Not that my opinion has any more merit than my opinions about the proper play call in an NFL game, but ....

    Having to rely on Ohio, well (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:50:10 PM EST
    I didn't really think Virginia was going to be that close this year. And now Romney may be ahead there.

    It's hard to overstate how much of a screwup the first debate was. And it's clear that the President's team knows it.


    Since we have your attention... (none / 0) (#43)
    by lilburro on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:52:30 PM EST
    as one of our resident poll-whisperers...thoughts on Florida?  Obama just not slamming Ryan hard enough (and perhaps it's too late now to do so)?

    The Florida polls smell like 2004 right now (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:55:59 PM EST
    The difference is that, demographically, Florida is a different place today.

    One observation I would make is that pure robopolls do not seem to be doing that well this year. Note SUSA's poll of CT out just now. The difference between landline respondents and cell phone respondents is astonishing.


    Robocalls (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:03:37 PM EST
    can't call cell phones and there aren't many people under 30 with landlines anymore.

    I'm 27, and I don't know a single person (5.00 / 2) (#49)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:06:14 PM EST
    my age who could be reached on a landline right now. Not one.

    more to that point (5.00 / 2) (#52)
    by CST on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:17:31 PM EST
    27 isn't 21.  There are a lot more people in that age range who can and will vote now than even 4 years ago.  For that matter, my older sister who is 33, has a husband and a kid, also has no landline, and I can't think of any other 30 year olds who do either.  You can't really dismiss them all as youth voters who don't show up.

    Only person I know with a LL (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:26:39 PM EST
    is my 76yo mother . . . .

    I have one but I never answer it (none / 0) (#80)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:39:20 AM EST
    unless I recognize the caller. Living alone, I just feel more secure with a land line phone by my bed at night. Of course I am probably closer to your mother's age than yours!

    I'm closer to my 10th HS anniversary (none / 0) (#53)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:22:16 PM EST
    than my 5th. And that's scary!

    closer? (none / 0) (#56)
    by CST on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:35:53 PM EST
    This year is my 10th HS reunion.  I was kind of young for my class, but still...  Oy.

    2 days ago I told someone how old I was and the next question they asked me was if I'd ever been married/had a kid.  This person is the same age as me.


    "Oy"? (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 04:03:25 AM EST
    CST: "This year is my 10th HS reunion.  I was kind of young for my class, but still ... Oy."

    I'm almost 52 years old, and you're 27 years old if I read you correctly. Suffice to say, I'm clearly old enough to be your father, and yet you sound old enough to be MY father. That bothers me. You're way too young to be fretting about your age. What are you going to do when you reach my age?

    My advice to you is this: Don't ever succumb to peer pressure with regards to the subject of marriage. I can't think of a more silly and frivolous reason in the world to marry than "because everyone else my age is getting / already married."

    I look at it this way. Marriage is a deadly serious business, and its bonds are only as strong as the level of personal commitment of each individual. It should not be treated so cavalierly. If you want to meet the life's partner best suited for you over the long haul, then you need to first like yourself as a single person.

    Because if you somehow don't feel complete or whole unless you're part of a couple, then the odds are pretty good that you'll successfully (and repeatedly) attract one of two primarily negative personality types into your life -- the co-dependent or the predatory. And before you realize it, you'll find yourself the unhappy part of a dysfunctional couple.

    (Trust me on that one.)

    Don't ever be afraid to march to the beat of your own drummer, especially when it comes to major personal decisions and choices in life. You'll be a much happier and more contented person for it.



    Donald, don't worry about Andgarden (none / 0) (#71)
    by Peter G on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 08:44:00 AM EST
    and peer pressure to marry.  He moved from NYC to Philly for his first law job this summer.  Unlike New York, the Pennsylvania Legislature is not going to make it legal for him to marry any time in the foreseeable future, sad to say.  (BTW, I passed my 45th high school graduation anniversary this spring.)

    thats not what the oy meant (none / 0) (#103)
    by CST on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 04:14:04 PM EST
    More like - my knees hurt.

    I learned the relationship lesson in my early 20s when I actively chose not to marry the wrong person, and I have no regrets about that.  Also the person asking me wasn't looking for an affirmative, they were trying to determine a level of "baggage".  It was more noticeable because a few years ago no one would have started with that question, and I'm at the point where its a reasonable thing to ask.  

    Also, I'm a bit older than 27, and my dad has over a decade on you :)


    "Scary," andgarden? Really? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 04:11:57 AM EST
    Then it's a good thing you're not looking at your class's 35-year reunion, like I am next year. Because if you're that scared now, you'll no doubt be practically catatonic by the time you're my age.

    I am almost twice that (none / 0) (#91)
    by Amiss on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 11:29:49 AM EST
    and have not had a LL in over 7 years.

    Another point (none / 0) (#57)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:38:09 PM EST
    and I can't remember what polling outfit it was. They did bilingual polling in Arizona and found that Obama jumped a couple points using bilingual callers when compared to English only pollsters.

    Polling firms have lost an edge in their scientific approach as they chase cost savings. Robocalls, no cell phone calls, caller ID, and I suspect the edge in all those cases is Obama voters that they are missing.

    Another little talked about factor is there are as many phony polling outfits as real ones these days. They aren't working independently, and in many cases are giving results they are paid to provide. RCP even loses some of it's advantage due to this, which possibly leaves Nate Silver as the only pseudo pollster that possibly evaluates everything in logical detail right now.


    Refresh my memory. (none / 0) (#51)
    by lilburro on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:15:00 PM EST
    I wasn't a close poll watcher in 2004 although I know FL fell into the R column.

    If SUSA is still only calling landlines that explains why we don't hear as much about them anymore.  I was wondering why their polling wasn't as vital this time around to getting a sense of the race.  For a while I thought PPP had usurped them but some of their polls recently have been outliers in a way that seems rather inconsistent to me.


    Basically, the classic pattern for FL (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:26:26 PM EST
    Is that if the race looks tied, the Republican wins by about 4-5 points.

    As for SUSA, they're actually doing alternatives to cell phone interviews so they can reach households without landlines. The reason you're seeing many fewer of their polls is that their media clients aren't paying for them so much anymore.


    Hey, Andgarden ... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Peter G on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:53:03 PM EST
    you're not old enough to know what "the peanut gallery" is, or should I say was.  But Jeralyn knows, and has written about it.

    To tell the truth, I did know! (none / 0) (#47)
    by andgarden on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:57:04 PM EST
    But I accept that most people my age would not have.

    This should have sealed the deal... (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by magster on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:19:09 PM EST
    ... for Obama. The only question is if there is a plurality of citizens in each of the swing states that hate Obama so much that they are motivated to vote against him.

    you mean like (none / 0) (#111)
    by TeresaInPa on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 06:06:33 PM EST

    IMO the answer that won it tonight (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by vicndabx on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:20:18 PM EST
    You know, if we're going to talk about trips that we've taken, you know, when I was a candidate for office, first trip I took was to visit our troops.

    And when I went to Israel as a candidate, I didn't take donors, I didn't attend fundraisers, I went to Yad Vashem, the -- the Holocaust museum there, to remind myself the -- the nature of evil and why our bond with Israel will be unbreakable.

    And then I went down to the border towns of Sderot, which had experienced missiles raining down from Hamas. And I saw families there who showed me where missiles had come down near their children's bedrooms, and I was reminded of -- of what that would mean if those were my kids, which is why, as president, we funded an Iron Dome program to stop those missiles.

    So that's how I've used my travels when I travel to Israel and when I travel to the region.

    And the central question at this point is going to be, who's going to be credible to all parties involved?

    And they can look at my track record -- whether it's Iran sanctions, whether it's dealing with counterterrorism, whether it's supporting democracy, whether it's supporting women's rights, whether it's supporting religious minorities -- and they can say that the president of the United States and the United States of America has stood on the right side of history. And -- and that kind of credibility is precisely why we've been able to show leadership on a wide range of issues facing the world right now.

    that was probably his finest answer (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:30:31 PM EST
    of the debate. Great imagery, perfect pitch (tone.)  On ABC, they said the humanity in this answer will likely resonate with women voters.

    I knew this debate would be an Obama (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:20:38 PM EST
    win, didn't know it would be this much of a butt kicking. Mitt Romney lacks stability and consistent intent in the foreign policy department, and with the designers of the Iraq War sitting with him in his quiet rooms he is THE LAST person who should be President of the United States ever.

    I will never forget how George W Bush during his debating played the Compassionate Conservative and then killed thousands and thousands and thousands of Iraqis and broke our military with his compassion because he could.

    Shoephone, (none / 0) (#21)
    by Amiss on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:33:44 PM EST
    CNN said 60% said either could run country as CIC. But Obama won the debate.(see last thread for numbers). Sorry memory and that long having to listen to Romney lie over and over, I forgot.
    Good nite for Obama, but is it enough? I got my early ballot for Jax and already had my absentee that is good for where I used to live.

    Really interesting (none / 0) (#44)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:52:34 PM EST
    Survey says: Obama wins.

    David Brooks is going to be very cranky.


    Obama had the perfect strategy tonight. (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by lilburro on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:27:04 PM EST
    Totally unfazed by Romney's disingenuous agreement.  Romney had no counter strategy.

    I think 'unfazed' is Obama's best quality (none / 0) (#59)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 02:29:01 AM EST
    Oh BTW (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:33:07 PM EST
    Me this morning at daily kos:

    This morning, the Romney foreign policy campaign team, a collection of retreads from the disastrous George W. Bush foreign policy apparatus, released this campaign memo. As I scanned through it, I noticed something peculiar--there were more than a few words missing from it--words like terror, Iraq, al Qaeda, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and, yes, Osama bin Laden. Maybe that's because Mitt Romney said if he were president he would not have made the call President Barack Obama made to kill or capture Osama bin Laden in Pakistan. Romney would have asked Pakistan for a permission slip[.]

    Such a foreign policy/military failure (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:42:41 PM EST
    I know it makes many Democrats uncomfortable that their current President has made some glossy successful military calls, but he has.

    I always remember your writing though on when the United States usually does something stupid and horrible militarily, and that is when we have had some success and our ego starts making decisions.

    With that in mind, I will be sticking with Obama because he doesn't seem to be damaged from his past success.  And I don't even want to know what Dan Senor will sell and get us into under the headline, 'Our Troops Got Bin Laden'.


    PPP Swing State Post Debate Poll (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:38:59 PM EST
    Obama won the debate 53-42

    And CNN has Obama up 48-40. (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by lilburro on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:45:20 PM EST
    And the Giants just won!!  Woohoo!!!

    My dad will be pleased, but where is this good juju when my Eagles need it???!!


    Ari Fleischer just said that ... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:39:30 PM EST
    ... this debate doesn't matter. So, you can all just move along now -- nothing to see here.

    Shorter Ari: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

    Translation (none / 0) (#30)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:40:19 PM EST
    my guy just got his ass kicked

    Ari who? (none / 0) (#38)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:47:17 PM EST

    Romney would have done better, (none / 0) (#68)
    by KeysDan on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 08:09:06 AM EST
    but the palm trees are not the right height.

    For whatever reason this debate (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:51:13 PM EST
    left me feeling Lebowski.  I made white russians and we are taking them to bed.  Good night and good luck Liberals, Democrats, Progressives, and kinder gentler people who wouldn't mind having their 1916 Navy back :)

    The New York Times (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by CoralGables on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 12:12:49 AM EST
    blisters Romney on it's editorial page after the debate:

    Mitt Romney has nothing really coherent or substantive to say about domestic policy, but at least he can sound energetic and confident about it. On foreign policy, the subject of Monday night's final presidential debate, he had little coherent to say and often sounded completely lost.

    You can read it all HERE

    This song just came to me after (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 02:31:39 AM EST
    waking up int he wee hours...must have been back there percolating in my brain.

    A little reminder for Mitt, since he can't seem too come up with the name of "his state"

    I Will Remember Massachussetts

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (none / 0) (#66)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 07:31:14 AM EST
    My recap of the Boca debate: (5.00 / 5) (#65)
    by KeysDan on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 07:25:14 AM EST
    An empty car pulled up to Lynn University and Mitt Romney got out.   He proceeded to give his new "Three Point Plan".  First, he will do all the good things that President Obama has done.  Second, he will not do any of the bad things President Obama has done. And, third, he promises not to get the two mixed up.   For further details, see his website at etch-a-sketch.com.  

    Listening to Morning Joe (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 07:53:53 AM EST
    Listening to Joe insist that President Obama was out negotiated on the Standard of Forces Agreement in Iraq.  First of all, President Obama inherited that SOFA from the Bush Administration.  Second, I don't think the Obama administration "tried" that hard to maintain a substantial troop presence in Iraq.

    They were worried about the embassy.  They wanted enough troops there to protect the embassy.  Having any troops in Iraq was inflaming Moqtada al-Sadr and his extensive group of loyalists though.  So our embassy is protected by contractors, and the troops that many say should be in Iraq are sitting in Kuwait.

    There is a lot to be said for having troops so close by.  If an emergency situation arises and the Iraqi government is placed in jeopardy those troops are right there.  Would our President send them in? That is a difficult question that everyone who could attempt to overthrow the sovereign Iraqi government has to ask themselves.

    It is in my mind the most appropriate leverage that our President could provide in attempting to stabilize an Iraq that George W Bush destabilized and broke.

    I hear Morning Joe talk a lot about how the Middle East is a destabilized mess but I don't hear anything about how it got that way.  The economic disparity of the Middle East got to the breaking point during the global economic crash when many people couldn't seem to live anymore.  There was another item that destablized parts of it and that was what we did to Iraq.

    Iraq and Iran fought each other. In the region those two entities were a balance of Shia vs. Sunni power.  Now Iraq is mostly in Shia power, Sunnis have no homebase, so they will fight for Syria now.  George W Bush and his NeoCons who are with Romney now are who did this!  They REALLY REALLY politically destablized the region and now here we are.

    Another draw? (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by KeysDan on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 11:32:40 AM EST
    Yes, a second opportunity to draw glaring attention to the emptiness of Romney's candidacy--something that some of the Republican primary voters recognized last spring.  The time warp of the candidate is as  apparent as is his obtuseness in foundational  areas  necessary to foreign policy, such as geography.

    His debate goal appears to have been  to market the new and improved Romney  so that if you like Obama's foreign policy, you will love  his. It will be the same or a little different one way or another.  In any event, Romney wants to portray himself as non-threatening in that department, contrary to any previous warmongering and brinksmanship statements. He left the bombs home last night, and borrowed some dove feathers (he is big on birds).

    Romney seemed so uncomfortable as" Mitt of the Moment " that he was wringing wet, no doubt needing a quick change of perspiration-soaked magic underwear.   His discomfort stemming, most likely, not from being a danger to our national security, but to the rathe he might bring on himself from the neocons.
    That pesky foreign stuff out of the way, he just returned to  his talking points about the economy--government does not create jobs, but if you elect Romney head of the government he  will create millions of jobs.   The election is close and Slado you may be right about the outcome, but in my view, you can stick a bayonet in him, he is done.


    I thought that Romney was the clear winner... (1.00 / 2) (#73)
    by deanno on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 08:55:20 AM EST
    in that he looks more "presidential" than Obama does. Right out of Central Casting.

    Morgan Freeman (5.00 / 4) (#74)
    by Farmboy on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:15:57 AM EST
    would like a word with you.

    With the pasty sweaty face and the wild eyes? (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:30:59 AM EST
    I had the opposite reaction - I thought to myself at one point that I may never vote for a white male president again.

    Every time the camera went to Romney (none / 0) (#99)
    by caseyOR on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 03:35:48 PM EST
     I expected to see twirling centrifuges spinning madly in his eyes.

    I can't explain it, but when I look at (none / 0) (#102)
    by Anne on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 03:52:42 PM EST
    Romney, he just has the deadest eyes - combined with his serial killer smile, it scares me more than a little.

    Similar to Hannibal Lecter perhaps? (none / 0) (#104)
    by easilydistracted on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 04:38:03 PM EST
    "I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti."

    I read somewhere last night--maybe (none / 0) (#101)
    by oculus on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 03:47:11 PM EST
    here--that Pres. Obama's ears were powdered!

    Too bad this isn't, you know, a movie, (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by Anne on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 10:00:47 AM EST
    or a beauty pageant ("and here we have Mitt Romney wearing a red, white and blue sequined Speedo with matching sandals; wow - he's really been doing some work on those glutes, eh?  I think we all know now why Ann Romney is always smiling!") instead of the depressing reality it actually is.

    If you want to cast Romney in something, try wax - it would give him the human quality he lacks in real life.


    CBS NEWS INSTANT DEBATE POLL (none / 0) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:06:13 PM EST

    Who are the 24%? (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:09:33 PM EST
    What more could they possibly need to know? I guess they're going to toss a coin on Nov 6.

    Or stay home (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:10:52 PM EST
    I asked 14-yr. old tutoree how many (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:33:20 PM EST
    eligible voters in his household would actually vote.  Answer:  1.  I estimate there are six adults who are old enough to vote.  But I didn't inquire as to whether all are registered and/or eligible to register.  

    Funny, today my 11-year-old tutoree (none / 0) (#41)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:50:32 PM EST
    had assignment to write a story in Word. When she clicked back to home page there was a split screen of Obama and Romney and she said, "Booooo!"
    I asked, "what are you saying 'boo' about?" She moved the cursor over Romney's face and said, "Him! Boooo!"

    Boo? (2.00 / 2) (#69)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 08:24:35 AM EST
    "Him! Boooo!"

    That's about the intellectual level these "debates" were conducted on.

    Idiocracy here we come!


    She's eleven years old. (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by shoephone on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 11:03:35 AM EST
    How old are you? FWIW, I think she's got a better handle on who's going to win the election than you do. She was reacting to the fact that Romney is creepy, and that feeling is very strong among  every female I know.

    Unfortunately, (none / 0) (#112)
    by NYShooter on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 08:14:06 PM EST
    it's not "every woman you know" that's going to decide this election. It's the low information, easily duped females that Romney is addressing. And, tragically, his approach is working.

    You know, that's the problem with much of the discussion here on TL; we react to the seemingly dumb things coming out of Romney's mouth as if he's trying to convince us. But, we're a part of that 47% that he, realistically, told his donors that he's written off. We are irrelevant.

    We shouldn't be judging Romney on the efficacy of his comments as they relate to us. We should judge him on whether his comments are effective with the constituency he's trying to reach. And, check the polls, it's working. We should stop giggling over the stupidity we hear him saying daily, and give him credit. He's a lot smarter than many of us give him credit for.

    p.s. I hope nothing I've said gives the impression I'd be happy with a Romney Presidency. I would not, it would be catastrophic. But, if the game is "winning," let's realize we're dealing with a guy who knows how to get there.


    Well, Romney has certainly established himself (none / 0) (#113)
    by CoralGables on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:22:28 PM EST
    as the most superficial major party presidential candidate of my lifetime. Guess he has that going for him.

    Hey, (none / 0) (#114)
    by NYShooter on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 10:00:00 PM EST
    if his research tells him the dimwits who will decide this election are into "superficial," look out below, "here I am, Mr. Superficial."

    Kind of pathetic that it's taken him (none / 0) (#115)
    by Anne on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 10:04:50 PM EST
    so many years to scrape together enough dimwits to get him to this point...another couple of years and by golly, he might be able to claim a mandate, huh?

    Sure we had more shipe in 1917, (none / 0) (#4)
    by observed on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:11:12 PM EST
    but did they have wifi in the quarters?

    I only read live-blogging, but my impression was that this debate was more one-sided than the first one.

    Purely shallow observation... (none / 0) (#5)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:13:39 PM EST
    I just saw NPR's Scott Horsley on PBS, giving his report from the debate site. That is one fine speciman of man. White hair and dark eyebrows does it everytime.

    I went to high school with him... (none / 0) (#10)
    by magster on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:21:08 PM EST
    OK, you've got real cred now! (none / 0) (#31)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:41:10 PM EST
    I'm a little jealous.

    I strongly agree! (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:26:41 PM EST
    white hair and dark eyebrows are THE LOOK!!!

    (Now that's some spin for me. Would love to have m,y dark hair back.)


    it's only as far away as (5.00 / 3) (#14)
    by Jeralyn on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:27:59 PM EST
    your hair salon!

    Nah (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:34:51 PM EST
    My white hair (and dark eyebrows) are part of my image now.

    I'd settle (5.00 / 5) (#17)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:31:20 PM EST
    for just my hair back

    Hey, soon you'll have (none / 0) (#23)
    by lilburro on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:34:56 PM EST
    some very distinguished company in President Obama, it looks like.  He was pretty gray this evening.

    BTD, I've seen your photo (none / 0) (#33)
    by shoephone on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:43:31 PM EST
    and you could easily rival Scott Horsley.

    Don't dye your hair!


    I've never seen a baseball game (none / 0) (#24)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:35:07 PM EST
    play in this kind of downpour to end a game

    I want to go to bed, so am hoping SF (none / 0) (#26)
    by Anne on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:36:53 PM EST
    can end this before they have to delay it for the monsoon rain.

    Go to bed!!! :D (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by nycstray on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:49:00 PM EST
    Me, I'll be getting out a stack of towels, looks like Roxy! will be getting soaked before bed :P

    GO GIANTS!!!!


    It looks like (none / 0) (#27)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:37:46 PM EST
    they will play this out unless a pitcher falls on his face first

    Do the rules require playing all 9 (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 10:46:00 PM EST
    innings even given SF is so far ahead?

    In the postseason, I believe so. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Donald from Hawaii on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 04:24:20 AM EST
    I just checked MLB official rules. (none / 0) (#98)
    by oculus on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 03:26:34 PM EST
    Rule 4 sections re calling or suspending game are inapplicable post season.  

    Martha Raddatz On Romney tonight (none / 0) (#50)
    by CoralGables on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:14:43 PM EST
    "I didn't recognize Romney at all"

    This about says it all (none / 0) (#70)
    by Slayersrezo on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 08:34:06 AM EST
    10.34pm: "That was just a wretched debate, with almost no redeeming qualities. It was substance-free, boring, and suffuse with empty platitudes. Bob Scheiffer's questions were even more vapid and predictably shallow than they normally are, and one often forgot that he was even there (which was the most pleasant part of the debate.)

    The vast majority of the most consequential foreign policy matters (along with the world's nations) were completely ignored in lieu of their same repetitive slogans on the economy. When they did get near foreign policy, it was to embrace the fundamentals of each other's positions and, at most, bicker on the margin over campaign rhetoric.

    Numerous foreign policy analysts, commentators and journalists published lists of foreign policy questions they wanted to hear asked and answered at this debate. Almost none was raised. In sum, it was a perfect microcosm of America's political culture."


    Oh, well, this is what we get when you don't have publically financed elections and your debates are taken over from independent organizations by an organ of the two parties and their sponsors. It's kind of sad that I look back at the political climate from the 80's and early to mid 90's with nostalgia for its relative openness to actual debate and "intellectual heft".


    Armando is on with David Waldman (none / 0) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 08:46:14 AM EST
    Talking about how ill informed Mitt Romeny geniunely is on foreign policy when it comes to dealing with military power.

    And in being so ill informed, likely doesn't wish to be a wonk of any sort on the subject. Looking at those who sit around him that he would hand such things off to.....he is really dangerous as hell as a President given the present global condition.

    Couldn't agree more!!!!  John Bolton would be your foreign policy President.

    Exactly right. I hope Obama hammers that home (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:29:50 AM EST
    int he next 2 weeks.

    Charlie Pierce tweeted, and later (5.00 / 2) (#83)
    by Anne on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:48:44 AM EST
    reiterated in a longer post, his belief that John Bolton probably had to be put in 4-point restraints listening to his candidate go so completely off-message from what Bolton and the rest of the neo-con consulting group has no doubt been advising.

    It was early in the proceedings here on Monday night when I was struck with a horrible vision. It may have been right about that moment in the final presidential debate when Willard Romney -- who, for most of the past two years, has been the most bellicose Mormon since they disbanded the Nauvoo Legion -- looked deeply into the camera's eye and, inches from actual sincerity, said, "We can't kill our way out of this mess." Or, perhaps, it was when, in a discussion of his newfound dedication to comprehensive solutions to complex problems, he announced his devotion to "a peaceful planet," or when he cited a group of Arab scholars in support of loosening the grip of theocratic tyranny in the Middle East.

    It was the horrible vision of John Bolton in four-point restraints.

    Charlie goes on to say this:

    They told us that, sooner or later, everybody who supported him through the primaries because he was the only Republican candidate who didn't sound like he belonged in a padded chapel would find themselves under the bus. And nowhere in his campaign was Romney firmer in his resolve than he was to a modernized version of the neoconservative agenda that so thrilled the world under the leadership of C-Plus Augustus. A full 17 of his 25 primary foreign-policy advisers had been deckhands on that particular plague ship, Sailing Master Bolton chief among them. And, at the end of the day, they all just turned out to be the last people to go sliding under the wheels. For the full 90 minutes of the foreign-policy debate at Lynn University here on Monday night, whether it was the president speaking or Romney, neoconservatism's breath barely clouded the mirror.

    "I notice," Delaware attorney general Beau Biden told me in the spin room afterword, "that none of those people are out here talking right now."

    Really, the only time Romney seemed to make any sense at all was when he was agreeing with Obama; that being said, I'm not sure that's necessarily as good a thing as people want to make of it.  Many of us were hoping for a real change away from the Bush policies, and what we got instead was more of it - and now they're Democratic policies.  Sure, we can point to "successes" as a result, but at a price we shouldn't have had to pay.

    Romney's the wrong guy for this job - there's no way he or the Bolton crowd should be allowed anywhere near our foreign policy - but it saddens and angers me how far a Democratic president has taken us from constitutionally-aligned and -driven governance - and how unlkely we are to ever get back what we have lost.


    Pierce did have some great lines about Bolton (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:53:35 AM EST
    All true of course.

    I agree with you on the end result. Wish the choices weren't between bad and unfathomably bad.


    Obama is still campaigning in FL this week (none / 0) (#81)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:43:52 AM EST
    Does the fact he is still here 2 weeks out mean that he has not given up on it, or that he wants to appear to have not given up on it?

    My uncle and his partner (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by lilburro on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:47:58 AM EST
    are going to the rally in Delray this morning.  Apparently someone gave them VIP tickets so they should be fairly close.  Exciting!

    That would be fun! good for them! (none / 0) (#84)
    by ruffian on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 09:51:17 AM EST
    Another draw (none / 0) (#88)
    by Slado on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 10:22:04 AM EST
    Obama wins a TKO on points because he was meaner.

    Romney played it safe because he has the momentum.

    Obama lies about Auto Bailout, Iraq and bayonets.

    Obamabots think he won.  Romneybots think he won and Obama wins the top poll while loosing all the incidentals underneath.

    Obama's closing remarks where terrible.  He is tired of campaigning and it shows.  He can't believe how close this thing is and with two weeks to go I have a suspicion this thing is going to break Romney's way at the end.

    Romney cleared the acceptable hurdle.   If you're tired of Obama (53% of the country is) then Romney is the acceptable replacement.

    Bye Bye Obama.

    More BS (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by Yman on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 01:10:06 PM EST
    Obama lied about bayonets?  Maybe if you're reading Faux news or The Blaze, but in the real world, he didn't.

    OTOH - Romney actually did lie about:

    1.  Claiming credit for the top test scores of Mass. grade schoolers when he was governor (they already were at the top when he took office).

    2.  The navy being smaller than at any time since 1917.

    3.  An imaginary "Apology Tour", which has been debunked numerous times already.

    4.  The size of the federal debt that was "owed to others".

    5.  Terrorism going unmentioned in the 2000  Presidential debate.

    I see (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by Amiss on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 01:51:03 PM EST
    Romnesia is still alive and. as sick and void of facts as it ever was.

    Romney played it safe (none / 0) (#93)
    by fishcamp on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 11:35:11 AM EST
    because he doesn't know much about history and foreign relations and he really stinks on our military requirements.  He was in way over his smarmy, pushy  head last night.

    The world according to Slado (none / 0) (#109)
    by Farmboy on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 06:01:07 PM EST
    Fox told me that Willard won, so that's what I think. And I like grapes, so your argument is invalid.

    Obama talked mean to poor ol' Willard  because he's afraid of him.

    Willard gave everyone in the audience sparkle ponies! Hooray! No ponies for Obama - boo!

    Everybody likes Willard more, except the Lame Stream Media lies so nobody really knows that they like him more. But I know.

    When I go to sleep at night I close my eyes and dream of Willard, 'cause he's so dreamy.

    Night, Willard.


    BBC interviewed some Beijing students (none / 0) (#95)
    by RonK Seattle on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 12:45:29 PM EST
    Some of them really liked Romney. Why? Because he's a Republican (like Nixon, I suppose).

    And because none of them thought he meant a word of anything he said about China.

    No, (none / 0) (#106)
    by deanno on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 05:33:45 PM EST
    but he does look smug and extremely arrogant.