Tuesday Evening Open Thread

Open Thread.

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    NAACP email a few minutes ago... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Edger on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 07:50:42 PM EST
    the Georgia Board of Pardons and Paroles upheld the decision to execute Troy Davis this Wednesday.

    Still, Troy has refused to have a "last meal." He has faith his life will be spared.

    In the past, his tremendous faith has been rewarded. The last time Troy faced execution, in 2008, the warden brought in what was to be his last meal. But Troy refused to eat. Looking the prison staff in their eyes, he explained this meal would not be his last. He was vindicated when he received a last minute stay. Guards still remember this as a haunting moment, one rooted in Troy's deep faith.


    As he has said many times "They can take my body but not my spirit, because I have given my spirit to God."

    In case anyone missed it when I posted it in another thread, there is a petition here: http://action.naacp.org/page/s/petition-larry-chisolm

    Petition may not work (none / 0) (#50)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 02:18:00 PM EST
    DA has no authority to ask judge to withdraw death warrant,a t least according to some death penalty experts.

    It would add some moral weight (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 03:24:20 PM EST
    I'd hope...

    Afghans love their dogfighting (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Dadler on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 08:53:30 PM EST
    It's sad isn't it? (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 09:44:00 PM EST
    I would imagine veterinarian care is hard to come by too after the fight is over.  There has been so much violence in their lives and culture though, how can they not become numb?

    Yes, obviously, but also no (none / 0) (#41)
    by Dadler on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 11:34:27 AM EST
    "Dogfighting in Afghanistan is thousands of years old," he said. "And it will continue for thousands more."

    The culture has always considered dogs unclean and unworthy.  That the Taliban don't like the fights, well, the irony is too ill and rich.  They care so much to stop dogfights but will beat woman in public for showing her ankles.  It is just an impossible situation.  A no win.

    As for the open pedophilia, that's been around a long time too, and isn't something I can point to outside forces as having influenced.  Imagine how many soldiers were sexually abused as kids, it's probably not an insignificant amount.  And you are asking them to fight for a culture that openly allows boys to be sex toys?

    The whole thing is just a clusterphuck of impossibilites and contradictions, and we seem incapable of identifying our own limits.  I know O has been better than Bush here, in some ways, but overall, I don't know, it seems no one is really getting it.  Nothing we think we can establish there is possible WHILE we're there, IMO.  That is the greatest irony of all.  (Unless, of course, we want to flood the country with millions of troops and impose it on them.)

    I need an aspirin.


    I read all the news today (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by Edger on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 09:16:23 PM EST
    Most things are still upside down, backwards, and/or inside out, it seems.

    Was it ever otherwise?

    Good even, Casca: brought you Caesar home?
    Why are you breathless? and why stare you so?

    Are not you moved, when all the sway of earth
    Shakes like a thing unfirm? O Cicero,
    I have seen tempests, when the scolding winds
    Have rived the knotty oaks, and I have seen
    The ambitious ocean swell and rage and foam,
    To be exalted with the threatening clouds:
    But never till to-night, never till now,
    Did I go through a tempest dropping fire.
    Either there is a civil strife in heaven,
    Or else the world, too saucy with the gods,
    Incenses them to send destruction.

    Why, saw you any thing more wonderful?

    -- Bill, Julius Caesar: Act 1, Scene 3

    I was just about to watch (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 09:46:41 PM EST
    the 1995 Richard III, but maybe I'm too tired :)

    :-) Cassius, (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Edger on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 09:50:12 PM EST
    later on in the same scene...
    Nor stony tower, nor walls of beaten brass,
    Nor airless dungeon, nor strong links of iron,
    Can be retentive to the strength of spirit;
    But life, being weary of these worldly bars,
    Never lacks power to dismiss itself.

    On a roll tonight (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 09:55:44 PM EST
    Something really eerie (5.00 / 2) (#16)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 11:40:52 PM EST
    about that guy Shakespeare.

    Mini-review for Oculus (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by observed on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 10:24:18 PM EST
    I went to a community symphony performance 3 nights ago,here in Indiana. The playing was good,and the progamming smart. There was some Beethoven,Holst,Glass in the first half; then Jennifer Higdon's Blue Cathedral, Barber's Adagio, and some latin dance (very good).

    I liked everything except the Higdon,which had one good sound effect (made from shaking chinese medicine balls and rubbing water glasses). Aside from that, it was the worst orchestral piece I have ever heard live,and probably the worst ever, including recordings I have heard.I could discern no form, only a succession of banal and undeveloped cliches.  In fact, there was some borrowing from Holst and Barber.
    Apparently the piece I heard is one of the most performed modern pieces. I can't imagine why.

    I like Glass, but I don't think his style fits into classical forms, as in the symphony I heard. How do you "develop" droning repetition? It didn't work for me structurally, but I enjoyed the listening experience.

    "Modern" classical is tough (none / 0) (#17)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 11:46:08 PM EST
    I had a horrible time with it when I was young, and then had the incredible experience of sitting next to a young composer during a rehearsal of something I was struggling with, one of the denser Messiaen piecs, I think.  He had a score and started pointing stuff out to me that was going on, and suddenly without warning my ears got "liberated" and the music world hasn't been the same for me since!

    Yes, there's a lot of crappy "modren music" out there, but it goes by entirely different rules so it's hard to tell until you've seriously listened hard to a lot of it.  For one thing, much of it isn't linear in the same way more traditional music is.  Doesn't mean I like all of it, but then I don't like all of traditional "classical music," either.


    I've listened to plenty of modern music. (none / 0) (#20)
    by observed on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:05:47 AM EST
    I can tell if a piece has something to say, even if I don't care for the aesthetic.
    Higdon is completely without talent, IMO---the worst I've ever heard.
    She can't even build a phrase for 10 seconds.

    BTW, there are several reviewers who (none / 0) (#21)
    by observed on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:07:25 AM EST
    have said similar things about Higdon.

    Also, Higdon's harmonies are (none / 0) (#22)
    by observed on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:08:33 AM EST
    not difficult. She's not "avant-garde" like Boulez or Crumb.

    Dominique Strauss-Kahn gossip (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by MO Blue on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 10:55:08 PM EST
    But, but I thought she wanted it.

    The interview comes amid a raft of allegations in France that he tried to rape young journalist Tristane Banon eight years ago.

    It emerged this week that Strauss-Kahn has confessed to police that he `tried to kiss her', but denies and violence or attempted rape. He admitted lunging at Ms Banon -31 years his junior -because `he thought that's what she wanted', according to the magazine L'Express.

    Ms Banon has claimed that Mr Strauss-Kahn `behaved like a rutting chimpanzee' leading her to kick and punch him before fleeing in panic.

    Mr Strauss-Kahn, who is suing Ms Banon for defamation, has received a frosty reception since returning to France on September 4. Socialist Party leader Martine Aubry said Mr Strauss-Kahn `had some explaining to do', while former prime minister Michel Rocard branded him `mentally ill' and `unable to control his sexual urges'. link

    Ugh, ugh, ugh (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 11:51:43 PM EST
    I venture to say most women have known somebody like him at some point, and "rutting chimpanzee" is a pretty good characterization.

    He also just described his "interaction" with the hotel maid in NY as a "moral lapse."  Really?  What kind of innocent "moral lapse" can there be between a powerful tycoon and an immigrant hotel maid 30 seconds after she walks into the room for the first time?


    he never said an innocent moral lapse (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Jeralyn on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:38:21 AM EST
    he said a moral lapse. As for what kind it could be, try the one where the maid was a willing participant and invited his action, expecting to be paid. His moral lapse was in acquiescing to her overture. (Given they didn't speak much if at all, maybe he didn't understand she wanted payment and assumed she was impressed by who he was while she just assumed he'd pay her because that's usually what men in hotel rooms do after a quickie hookup.)

    As for it happening in the first 30 seconds, there's no proof of that. That's her story, and he has always labeled it ridiculous. They were in there for about 9 minutes. How can you buy that a prominent, 62 year old ,out of shape man gets out of the shower and jumps a stranger so much younger and bigger who works at the hotel where he's staying under his real name? He's not an idiot. That story just defies credulity, whatever you think of DSK's morals.

    I haven't followed the french writer's story, and have no interest in him or his tribulations now that the criminal case in the U.S. is over, so I won't comment on her allegations or his response to them, but as to the maid, I don't believe a word of her story, and either did the DA's who were more than predisposed to accept any rational story to get a conviction, and just couldn't in good conscience go forward after her hours of interviews replete with inconsistencies and lies.


    Actually (none / 0) (#29)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:03:04 AM EST
    He said it was a "moral fault"

    Here (none / 0) (#31)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:17:37 AM EST
    "What happened was not just inappropriate, it was more than that, it was a fault; a fault toward my wife, my children, my friends but also a fault toward the French people who placed in me their hope for change.

    "It was a moral fault of which I am not proud. I regret it infinitely. I have regretted it every day for the last four months; I don't believe I have finished regretting it."



    On a different note. (none / 0) (#33)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:31:55 AM EST
    As a DWTS fan, you should get a kick out of  this:

    And finally: Former President Bill Clinton recently opted out of a future in sequined pants suits. On The Rachel Ray Show, Clinton revealed that Dancing with the Stars contacted him to be a contestant on the show. "And I told them I didn't have the time to train for it. You know you actually go out there and train -- you really work at it," he said. link

    Diplomatic as usual (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by sj on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 10:47:24 AM EST
    Well, thank you (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 11:11:50 AM EST
    I think that is the first time anyone told me I was diplomatic. Normally people tell me I'm much too blunt and that I should sweeten my remarks with more sugar.

    I will file this away in my "Love to Hear This: file for future reference. {multiple smiley faces) ;o), ;o)..........,o)


    Thank goodness for small favors (none / 0) (#35)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 10:04:30 AM EST
    The interview (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by Nemi on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:25:02 PM EST
    was as beautifully executed as it was meticulously choreographed. The interviewed choosing the interviewer, a female family friend, Claire Chazal, and the questions handed to Strauss-Kahn in advance.

    As to the "frosty reception" it certainly didn't apply to former culture minister Jack Lang - yet another family friend:

    "Personally I thought he was remarkable," Lang told Associated Press Television News. "I thought he was excellent -- sincere, clear, humble ... On the legal procedure that had accused him, on the lifting of the charges, on a whole series of questions he was, I repeat, clear and concrete."
    Never hurts to have savvy advisers and loyal, influential friends, does it now.

    Why let details get in the way (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:30:30 PM EST
    of a good story? DSK deserves our sympathy, doncha know?

    WOW I'm impressed (5.00 / 5) (#24)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 01:31:49 AM EST
    via Eschaton with video

    Elizabeth Warren!

    I hear all this, you know, "Well, this is class warfare, this is whatever."--No!

    There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody.

    You built a factory out there--good for you! But I want to be clear.

    You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for.

    You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate.

    You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for.

    You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.

     Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea--God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.

    But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.

    Takes a lot to impress me lately but this is the way I expect a Democratic candidate to sound and she nailed it.

    Yes, that is how a Democrat should sound. (5.00 / 4) (#25)
    by caseyOR on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 01:53:55 AM EST
    She nailed it. And she does it in a way that everyone can understand and relate to.

    Perhaps we should all email a link to this Warren video to our senators and representatives. Oh, and a mass mailing to the White House would not be out of order.


    Before you shop Amazon (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by scribe on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 06:36:38 AM EST
    please take the time to read this full article and consider whether you want to support a company that, in the heat of summer chose to hire local paramedics to be on site to treat the workers and return them to work, rather than open the doors on the warehouse and allow some cross-ventilation.

    And consider how bad the job must be when the common reaction of the workers who are fired is that they are relieved to be out of there.  In this economy.  When the job was paying them a munificent $12/hour with no benefits.  And these are people who live in a part of the country where "I can outwork you" is a part of the cultural ethos and being able to say that a point of pride.

    Make your own decision.

    Oh my (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 08:04:36 AM EST
    I have bought that yearly membership deal that gives you free shipping on most of their stuff.  They get A LOT of our money because shopping here really sad.

    Reading Suskind's book (5.00 / 3) (#39)
    by lilburro on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 10:48:45 AM EST
    yesterday's discussion inspired me to buy it.  I am 10% of the way through and it's mostly a discussion of Wall St. and the origins and growing awareness of the Big Sh*tpile.  

    I just downloaded it to my Nook. (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Anne on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 11:53:47 AM EST
    I think pieces and parts of the book are going to continue to get coverage, and I want to read it all in context and not rely on the media's or bloggers' cherry-picking them for whatever purpose.

    Another government shutdown threat? (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 11:36:18 AM EST
    Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) warned Tuesday there is a chance that the government could shutter by the end of this month.

    Criticizing House Republicans for the disaster relief provisions in their budget bill, Reid told reporters, "We're not going to cave on this."

    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) on Tuesday confidently predicted the two sides will come together by Thursday night: "There wil not be a government shutdown."

    Reid, however, said, "I'm not that sure" there won't be a shutdown. He added, "I am not as certain as McConnell."


    Ha! One of my facebook friends (5.00 / 3) (#48)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:41:27 PM EST
    put up I refuse to believe that corporations are people too until Texas executes one of them

    I might have to log in to Facebook (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by sj on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 02:14:56 PM EST
    Just to make that my status

    Facebook made some changes last (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by Militarytracy on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 02:21:51 PM EST
    night.  It's weird because all of my friends who are upset about the changes are Conservatives.  One of my Liberal friends who has a lot of the same friends put up The rest of the world uses Facebook to revolt against regimes, Americans use Facebook to revolt against Facebook

    I was (none / 0) (#1)
    by lentinel on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 05:45:09 PM EST
    watching an old movie - made in the 1930s - which depicted a cast of actors and musicians doing a radio broadcast.

    It looked so exciting.
    And there was work for people.
    Actors, musicians, technicians, sound effects people, directors and writers - all producing shows on a weekly or daily basis - and broadcasting it all live.

    Taped or canned t.v. shows is all we have now. Even SNL isn't L.


    On a somber note, I can't help but be aware that in a few hours, a man will be systematically put to death by the State of Georgia.

    This man may, in fact most likely is, innocent of the crime of which he was convicted and sentenced.

    But I remember the weird feeling of the entire country counting down the minutes until Timothy McVeigh was going to be killed.

    It set the tone for the Bush administration.

    And McVeigh was guilty beyond any doubt.
    And it still felt ... I don't quite have the word for how it felt.
    Or how it feels.

    It was Clinton (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 06:48:42 PM EST
    that not only sought the death penalty for McVeigh but who passed AEDPA, the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. Joe Biden was a huge champion of AEDPA. AEDPA has a lot to do with Troy Davis. More here.

    It was the OKC bombing that led Clinton and the Dems to enact AEDPA. Even Bob Barr, one of the drafters of AEDPA, later came to rue its being used in cases like Troy Davis:

    bq. This threat of injustice has come about because the lower courts have misread the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, a law I helped write when I was in Congress. As a member of the House Judiciary Committee in the 1990s, I wanted to stop the unfounded and abusive delays in capital cases that tend to undermine our criminal justice system.With the effective death penalty act, Congress limited the number of habeas corpus petitions that a defendant could file, and set a time after which those petitions could no longer be filed. But nothing in the statute should have left the courts with the impression that they were barred from hearing claims of actual innocence like Troy Davis'


    You've been around here long enough (none / 0) (#27)
    by scribe on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 06:38:26 AM EST
    lentinel, to know that TL was one of McVeigh's defense counsel.

    Did you really have to go jabbing a pointed stick there?


    You (none / 0) (#32)
    by lentinel on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:21:01 AM EST
    misinterpreted my comment. Perhaps I should have expressed myself more clearly.

    I began by trying to describe my feelings as the hours ticked by for the execution of someone whose guilt is in serious question.
    I could not find the words.

    I went on to say that for me as a citizen, being aware of an impending execution - even of a person who was guilty beyond doubt as I believe McVeigh was - was a feeling for which I found no adequate words to describe.

    It was not my intention to jab a stick at anyone - especially anyone associated with McVeigh's defense - and especially not at Jeralyn or anyone associated with TL. I am a grateful visitor here. I realize that.

    And, parenthetically, I was unaware of TalkLeft's involvement in McVeigh's defense - so I guess I haven't been around here quite long enough... or I haven't read enough of the relevant posts.

    To repeat - the strange feeling of watching moments tick by towards an execution is a unique one for me. Horrific is one word that comes to mind. Sickening is another. But neither is adequate.


    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#47)
    by scribe on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:32:03 PM EST
    We should try to separate our opinions as to guilt or innocence from our addressing the death penalty (or any criminal penalty, for that matter).  Though, in any case of doubt (like this one), the presence of a capital penalty should be an a fortiori reason to reexamine the case.

    Government amends Poker indictment (none / 0) (#3)
    by Dadler on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 07:26:32 PM EST
    Now claims FullTilt was a Ponzi scheme, which seems more than a bit daft to me, but you never know.  Either way, that the government can go after this with such abandon, while largely ignoring the financial crime in the TRILLIONS that destroyed the nation, the DOJ can suck it if they expect any credit.  Legalize and regulate.  That was always the way.  Instead, our asinine puritanical heritage once again shoves it's cross up the aces of freedom.

    That said, if Howard Lederer and Chris "Jesus" Ferguson were really the scumbags alleged here, fine go after them, but let normal people have their freedom back.  Ain't no one clamoring to close down the most corrupt casino in the history of the nation: Wall Street.  Truth be told, I have no doubt this is the result of Vegas lining the pockets of equally crooked pols.  Vegas wants the online gaming action for themselves alone, you can be assured.

    And here's a link to my story about the crazy online poker run I went on last year, when I challenged myself to best Ferguson's zero to ten grand experiment.  I did it in about three months, took the pro over a year.  I may amend the piece soon to reflect this, but I dunno.  Enjoy if you haven't read it.  Unlike those Wall Street crooks, I had to win at a real game, not just rig a fake one. (LINK)

    BTW, I referenced TL and your posts about this, J, hope you don't mind.

    It appears to me that Full Tilt (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 09:42:25 PM EST
    took money from the Cage, the place where players get chips for money, and used it for other purposes. In terms more familiar, the casino supposedly holds the player's money in escrow until the player decides to exchange the chips for money.

    In the physical world the casino has money left over because the game's expenses are paid for by taking chips from each hand and dropping them into a box. In addition some casinos and some games have a chip or more dropped into a "Jackpot" box. The casino awards the Jackpot based on certain criteria and takes a percentage for "managing" the Jackpot money. This is supposedly true in the Internet sites.

    Evidently FT took money from the escrow accounts and then couldn't pay the winners.

      WSJ Link

    I have never known an actual casino to not be able to cover the chips brought to be redeemed by the winners although it was rumored that one, can't remember the name, in LA was unable to do so on one Sat. night.

    I don't know what a "ponzi" scheme's legal definition is. But I do know that taking money held in escrow is illegal. Ask any real estate agent.

    What needs to be done is federal laws regulating and taxing Internet gaming. And don't leave it to the states because that just creates a mismash of laws that will beg to be not enforced and corruption will flourish.

    Besides, if the server that houses the game is in Nevada and the player in Kentucky... where is the game?


    All I know is.... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Dadler on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:03:50 AM EST

    I just have very little doubt that this is ALL the result of money going to pols.  Vegas wants online action, period.

    And online shopping is exactly the same: if the ...I was playing with free money, made thousands and never had the slightest delay in getting my money.  

    Also online shopping is much the same problem: if the server is in Ohio and the purchaser in Oregon, where is the transaction taking place?  They manage to work this out fine.

    But yep, they need to legalize and regulate.

    Also, do you know of any website where all those unpaid FT players are griping?  I couldn't find one.  As I understood it, payments were hindered when the government froze the bank accounts.

    I just find the whole thing fishy from the government's perspective.  And, again, I have absolutely no doubt that Vegas money fattening pols has more to do with this than anything.


    Seems like a shady.. (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 09:38:11 AM EST
    accounting issue, possibly nefarious, possibly just sloppiness.  Not quite seeing a "Ponzi scheme", but who knows.

    If Lederer, Ferguson, and the other partners open their wallets and make all their customers whole, I say no harm no foul no problem.  If not, then there is no way to avoid the law getting involved, the players got robbed.  And those famous players names should be Mudd forever...I'd expect this from banksters, not poker players.


    You can't just give back the money after robbing (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 05:28:38 PM EST
    the bank...

    "Protect yourself at all times!" (none / 0) (#6)
    by Addison on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 09:15:57 PM EST

    Pa. school pulls 'Kismet' after 9/11 complaints (none / 0) (#14)
    by Bratrios on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 10:34:23 PM EST
    Wouldn't be so bad if Oklahoma wasn't such a stale musical.


    OH MY GOD! (none / 0) (#18)
    by gyrfalcon on Tue Sep 20, 2011 at 11:48:43 PM EST
    Really, that's just totally jaw-dropping and very, VERY depressing.

    But Oklahoma-- could be worse, could have been "Sound of Music" or "The King and I," by far the two worst successful musicals of all time.


    Bush can finally ask... (none / 0) (#36)
    by magster on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 10:18:33 AM EST
     ".. and people lauged at ME?", because Obama pulled a Bush. Pretty funny.

    That was funny (none / 0) (#37)
    by MO Blue on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 10:22:16 AM EST
    More bad news for the WH (none / 0) (#44)
    by jbindc on Wed Sep 21, 2011 at 12:16:47 PM EST
    More people are now blaming Obama for the state of the economy, despite what some around here want to think.

    Former president George W. Bush deserves a great deal of blame, 36% say, a decline of 7 percentage points since mid-2009, five months after he had left office.

    Twenty-four percent say Obama deserves a great deal of the blame, up 10 points since 2009. For the first time since he took office, a majority of Americans -- including six in 10 independents -- say he deserves a great deal or moderate amount of blame for the nation's economic woes.

    And for those who like to compare statistics to Bill Clinton (wholly useless information, but fun anyway!):

    Americans are inclined to rate Obama as a better president than Bush, albeit only by single digits, 43%-34%. They overwhelmingly rate Bill Clinton more highly. Half of those surveyed say Obama has been a worse president than Clinton, who governed during an economic boom; 12% say Obama has been better.