Saturday Morning Open Thread

Open Thread.

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    I started a Learn to Row program this summer. (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:07:05 PM EST
    8-person crew. The best workout EVER.

    I may have made a joke, but rowing, (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 11:27:55 PM EST
    especially in the numbers you're doing, is a physical, mental, and spiritual workout.
    Out-Standing, Dr. Molly! You just might make it on the Pirate Crewe after all!

    I would imagine (none / 0) (#7)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:14:20 PM EST
    The best workout EVER.

    Wow, bet you will wind up with arms to die for.


    Total body. (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:22:15 PM EST
    I can already see, after just 6 weeks of crew, major changes in muscle tone in arms and legs.

    It's a lot of fun too.


    That is the best kind (none / 0) (#16)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:48:28 PM EST
    It's a lot of fun too.

    Exercise that is so much fun that you forget it is exercise.

    My "fun" exercise programs are much more sedate than yours but good for me none the less.

    Tues. and Thur. - water aerobics
    Wed. - senior line dancing*

    Not so fun exercise.

    Mon., Wed and Fri - treadmill and strength training

    *My Wed. line dancing class is taught by a 92 year old lady and we all wish we could move as well as she does. Sharp as a tack also. It was rather embarrassing when I first started. I was very out of shape and was huffing and puffing after a couple of fast dances and there was Mini, the 92 year old, not out of breath at all. I want to be just like Mini when I grow up.


    Line dancing sounds like a blast. (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:51:36 PM EST
    That's great.

    I also like water aerobics, swimming, anything to do with water.


    It is a blast (none / 0) (#19)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:57:56 PM EST
    I'm not a great dancer but I truly love to dance. Have missed dancing and now I can dance on a regular basis. The best thing is that I don't need a partner (since I don't have one).

    The line dancers also go as a group to monthly dances held at our civic center. I'm going to my first one next Friday. More dancing. Hurrah, hurrah.


    That's so cool (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:31:20 PM EST
    I like it when a rowing machine is around to mix it up with.  Can't imagine what learning to work with that many other people at the same time is like.

    yeah, the level of teamwork required is high. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:42:47 PM EST
    synchronicity in all movements required for proper rowing. challenging.

    Y'all need to do log sit ups. (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 11:25:42 PM EST
    Rangers Lead The Way!

    Sounds great (none / 0) (#31)
    by BackFromOhio on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 04:32:44 PM EST
    where are you -- i.e., can others join in?

    I'm in the VA/DC area (none / 0) (#34)
    by Dr Molly on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 05:12:00 PM EST
    There are several programs around the area - on the Potomac River, on the Occoquan River, on the Charlottesville reservoir, etc.

    Where are you?


    NY (none / 0) (#77)
    by BackFromOhio on Mon Aug 08, 2011 at 11:05:19 AM EST
    Thanks for the info!

    Information on helicopter that was (5.00 / 0) (#8)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:19:32 PM EST
    shot down in Afghanistan.

    The late-night Chinook helicopter crash in Afghanistan that killed up to 31 Americans and 7 Afghans killed over 20 Navy SEALs, including members of Seal Team Six, the same unit that participated in the raid that killed Osama bin Laden.
    AP itemizes the deaths as "22 SEALs, three Air Force air controllers, seven Afghan Army troops, a dog and his handler, and a civilian interpreter, plus the helicopter crew." link

    Condolences to the families.

    The legacy for our times will be "Never ending wars."

    My sentiments as well (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by christinep on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 05:33:32 PM EST
    As the daughter of a Marine Corps enlisted man during WWII--and one who was fortunate enough to have dad return to beget me--I join in what you say about Afghanistan. While leary about our original entry there but also aware of the reasons why we undertook to enter the land that swallows up other invading armies, it is truly getting to the point & beyond of our leavetaking. Then I feared we would follow the Russian route (add ending "rout" too) and economic debilitation...now, that spectre is all the more real. Withdrawal realities need to step up the pace.

    The reason for failure in Afghanistan, from the (none / 0) (#45)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 08:11:39 PM EST
    USSR to the multiple British attempts probably dates back to Alexander the Great, who made friends with the indigenous tribes there instead of battling them... battles he thought would end up in horrible attrition for his armies.

    In this day and time, the special operations guys have tremendous success, but the conventional side and the diplomatic/civil affairs nation builders, not so much.


    I've heard the Alexander the Great thing (none / 0) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 07:38:00 AM EST
    over and over and over again :)  Mostly because it sounds a certain way I guess.  I'm sure the USSR is happy to watch us go through all this but, none of this is about Empire for us, it is about nukes and global terrorism.

    Alexander the Great (none / 0) (#54)
    by Politalkix on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 07:47:13 AM EST
    invaded that part of the world long before the birth of Islam.

    I have no idea what that has to do with (none / 0) (#56)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 07:48:42 AM EST
    the price of rice in China, or nukes loose on the globe in the name of someone's God.

    It does not and that is the point (none / 0) (#57)
    by Politalkix on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 07:59:42 AM EST
    Alexander the Great predated crusades, jihads and religious wars.

    I'm still missing your point :) (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 09:01:29 AM EST
    Another thing often said is that Afghanistan is the Graveyard of Empires.  Alexander was trying to build his own Empire, the Brits were pasted there, the USSR was pasted there.  I think that is what people are talking about when they play on those themes.  But the desire to conquer and incorporate are not the same as fighting a grave global danger.  We don't want to own Afghanistan, we talk about needing to stabilize it hoping to ensure a success over it ever becoming the playground of global terrorists again.  But in the end is that necessary?  It is certainly more humane, more humane than the Biden plan, more safety for civilians.....but if we have no other choices other than leave or go with the small footprint Biden plan I can promise it will be the Biden plan.  

    Here is the point (none / 0) (#60)
    by Politalkix on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 09:53:46 AM EST
    (1)The global terrorists and the people who are interested in using loose nukes against us are the one who think that they are fighting a holy war against us. If it was just about resisting imperialism (and empire building)they would not be exporting terrorism.
    (2)The descendents of tribes of that region that Alexander the Great, fought and befriended, were defeated by Arab, Turkish and Mongol armies in the past who also converted the people to Islam. Even if the British and the Russians suffered setbacks and defeats, I would like to make the point that other armies in the past have slaughtered and defeated tribes from that region and established outposts of empires in Afghan lands. The idea that Afghanistan is a "graveyard of empires" is therefore wrong from an academic point of view.

    I'm not entirely certain (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 10:39:56 AM EST
    that the premise is wrong from an academic point of view.  I just don't think it applies to the situation at hand.  The goal of protecting yourself and your family and your people from terrorism is a much different goal and we are not lacking in people who are willing to go address this and die because of what the real goal is.

    We lost a lot when we lost the people that we lost 2 days ago.  The total group knowledge and skill and capability is staggering.  What is even more staggering though is that we have people lined up behind them several people deep working to acquire the same years worth of knowledge, skills, and abilities to be able to do the same job.  That is because of what is on the line.  Iraq was not about addressing danger, it was about taking a country over and taking away their precious resource.  It was immoral and it burnt people out, it made people quit, it just about broke the military.  As far as dedicated people returning to service and volunteering to deploy though, finally focusing on the dangers that Afghanistan poses caused that whole dynamic to make a 180 degree turn around.  Our soldiers aren't going to burn out, and that is because this is about addressing very real danger.


    I agree with your sentiments (none / 0) (#65)
    by Politalkix on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 11:27:53 AM EST
    about the Iraq and AfPak war. I have expressed very similar sentiments and reasoning in this blog, myself.

    I don't think you can say that (none / 0) (#68)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 06:08:40 PM EST
    these tribesmen were defeated by those various empires... subjugated, perhaps, but after each of those empires faded, those tribesmen went back to their lifestyles.

    Sure, there was cultural pollination, changes in religion, etc., but Afghanistan has never stayed conquored, if you take my drift.


    We had not heard about this yet (none / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:30:16 PM EST
    My husband is out riding his motorcycle with one of his friends.  I suppose someone has probably messaged them this morning. This is going to hit very hard in some circles.  Peace upon their family and friends.

    Many of these senior special forces soldiers are devastating when they are lost now.  They are amazing because they aren't kids, and they've managed to hang in there while grueling things are done to their aging bodies.  They work closely with those in mission planning too and the infrastructures that support them.  If they aren't on an actual mission they are in working groups of people with their heads all together.  Many get to know them well and come to love them as family outside of their immediate unit.  This is going to be a devastating loss.


    Oh no (none / 0) (#14)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:34:28 PM EST
    mission air controllers killed with them.  This is going to hit close to my home.  I don't even want him to come home from his motorcycle ride if he hasn't already been messaged by someone.

    Sorry that this may hit closer to home (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by MO Blue on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:58:48 PM EST
    for you and your husband.

    Thank you (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 06:16:33 PM EST
    Flight following or affirmative control, MT? (none / 0) (#44)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 08:07:44 PM EST
    Do you have any idea?

    Was the helicopter Navy/marine, Army, or USAF?

    Just a few questions.

    Twenty SEALS going down at once... SOCOM must be reeling. This sort of thing only happens in nightmares.

    Now I wonder who of my few amigos there bought it.

    Appropos of nothing, did Mr. MT ever fly in the 160th SOAR, or SOAG? Don't answer if you can't.


    Jeff, The questions I have...... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 10:33:03 AM EST
    Why were there so many of a small elite unit in the same aircraft?

    And it looks like the helicopter was shot down on approach. Why wasn't the LZ secured/suppressed by fixed wing aircraft and/or gunships  before the landing?

    I read/heard somewhere that the transport was unarmed, the oldest in the fleet and the only one capable of carrying a heavy load at the altitude required to get to the LZ.

    I doubt it but maybe this will explain to some folks why Bush didn't have the military pursue OBL into the high mountains. Some wise military type pointed out to him that we lose a lot of our technology in the high mountains and the fight becomes more equal.

    I don't believe in equal fights.


    Jim, (none / 0) (#66)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 06:00:10 PM EST
    If there was only one aircraft, then that was beyond poor planning... two or three, each making random drops to act like it's offloading troops...

    Maybe the lack of fixed wing coordination came because of that same planning.

    And if the area was hot, but this was supposed to be a covert infiltration, who spilled the beans, or who was the idiot who picked out a map reference and said "that's a good spot" without any reconnaisance?

    Aerial photos or sat photos at least, if not low-level passes or EM checking for either radio, cell, or satphone...

    If this was some sort of a training exercise, I think I'll just vomit.


    It would have to have been (none / 0) (#67)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 06:03:46 PM EST
    a CH 46, CH47, or CH 53 with that many on board. All three of these CAN carry armaments.

    But flying at those altitudes, the lift issue gets critical.

    Jim, if the weapons were offloaded because of weight issues to get everyone aboard a single carrier, somebody needs to go to jail. But instead, let's see if there are new additions to the PAO office.


    One of the sad things about this... (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 08, 2011 at 09:02:54 AM EST
    I was around a bunch of folks yesterday PM who never was in the military. All were sad that it happened. But no one seemed to know enough to question what apparently went on.

    Our all volunteer military is creating a civilian society that often criticizes the political objectives but who just accept as a given that our tactics are always right.

    We need Universal Military Service to be sure that everyone is on the same page when it comes to who and what the military is.


    I saw (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ga6thDem on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 03:03:57 PM EST
    this earlier when I booted up the computer. It made me think about what if we had gotten out of Afghanistan? I'm sad that even if we got out tomorrow, it would be too late for these Americans.

    I appreciate that nobody (none / 0) (#40)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 06:26:29 PM EST
    wants Americans any place to die.  I don't want any of our soldiers to die either, but they are prepared to do that.  Particularly the people who were on this aircraft.  They are not young, they have seen a lot of combat, they and their families know the risk...we have had it in our faces many times before.  It is a war, there is a war on the ground to keep the people safe and wrestle power from the Taliban in that fashion and then there is the other juncture of hunting the bad guys that really empower the whole Taliban bad guy structure.  That is who these people were, and the they have been doing it for more than a little while.  I feel hurt and sad and terrible and tearful, but this is a war, the people they go after have money and connections and planning and structure.  The bad guys got us today, that happens.  I am surprised that my teeth are gritted though, and our next deployment is our next deployment and but for the grace of God.  The whole family knows the costs though all the way around, to include just ignoring the dangerous people that really are there and what could happen doing that.  

    MT: Today, I wanted to get out (none / 0) (#46)
    by christinep on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 10:00:08 PM EST
    I keep thinking about the way that Russia followed in Afghanistan. But then, I am so removed in many ways...other than philosophical, political. You live it. You & your husband & your courageous extended family. You have strength.

    'Guess I can have patience for awhile longer. Thanks again.


    I don't know that we can keep (none / 0) (#55)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 07:47:16 AM EST
    the troop level and strength there that we have.  How will we pay for it?  In the business world it is being suggested that one of the reasons we lost our credit rating was wars on credit cards.  We can be downgraded again, that isn't an impossibility.

    But the representation of our forces that died on that aircraft will remain in the region for a very long time, or perhaps the global recession/depression will starve the Haqqani network of funding and the weapons.  That would be at least one plus along with the suffering.


    Sounds like a hit? (none / 0) (#30)
    by BackFromOhio on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 04:31:04 PM EST
    These guys are really fighting the (none / 0) (#41)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 06:29:37 PM EST
    internal structure of supported terrorism.  Us doing that will not stop, even if other troops leave Afghanistan.  I don't think this type of fighting and incident is anywhere near over.  You don't negotiate with the Haqqani network, though you may be able to negotiate with some Taliban tribes.

    MT, i think it's becoming a hydra. (none / 0) (#51)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 11:55:33 PM EST
    For every bad guy we kill, a second or third cousin, an uncle, a nephew, even a niece, they look to the family/clan lines and accept the old time principle of vengeance.

    I've almost stopped writing about Afghanistan except to call for the removal of all military, even if it means destroying equipment in place.


    Then you have researched (none / 0) (#52)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 07:34:43 AM EST
    the Haqqani network?  Because they aren't Taliban, just Taliban affiliated.  I respect your take Jeff, and they have upped the ante considerably in the past five years.  If Bush would have done what he was supposed to do in Afghanistan in 2001 we would be on a different playing field.

    Because of what Bush did, we were observed and tested and tested by the Haqqani network and they began training to do damage.  They have made at least one very sophisticated wave suicide bombing to kill Karzai, they have killed every leader in Afghanistan that would stand up to them so far.  I can't say run of mill Taliban has done this or is even interested in most of that.  The Haqqani network uses the cover of the Taliban though, they remain Taliban affiliated but they are separate.  It is just useful when they do some things, to put the blanket Taliban stamp on it and hopefully hide how sophisticated and capable they can be behind a series of small scale Taliban difficulties...whatever those are in any given week.

    The Haqqani network is part of a very sophisticated international network getting a lot of money funneled to it.  Probably most of it out of Saudi Arabia.  We will not leave Pakistani nukes to be fought over by the Haqqani network.  That isn't happening.  This may not end in my lifetime.  I'm not planning on it.  This isn't about winning.  It is only about keeping nukes out of the International jihadist terrorism network, and there is such a thing now and a large part of who ignored the situations and refused to deal with the real danger is on George Bush.


    Tracy (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 10:46:58 AM EST
    The strategy of shooting down aircraft landing in unsecured LZ's goes back at least to Vietnam and was practiced in  Afghanistan with great success by the rebels against the Soviets.

    To me this looks like a major Charley Foxtrot by who ever did the battle plan.

    IF, and this is a big IF, the LZ wasn't suppressed  because it was thought that there were "friendlies" in the area then we damn well should not have been there.

    Obama has said we are leaving. No need to recklessly waste lives after we have already surrendered.


    The last I had heard Jim (none / 0) (#69)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 06:52:35 PM EST
    The crash investigation still had not revealed with certainty what brought them down.  Last I heard it was still not a certainty that it was a shootdown.  To be honest, even if they later on decide positively it was a shootdown they may never release that to the rest of us and they have a reason for doing that.  Rumors of success can breed more success.

    It is very unusual for these guys to miscalculate though Jim, but it happens.  These guys do a lot of missions right now, this is a horrible loss but when you consider the scale of risk and the number of missions they have preformed without a hitch....it's astonishing.  I know that during one six month time frame last year we lost two separate soldiers to unforeseeable events.  They are going to get killed sometimes Jim.  It is astonishing that it doesn't happen more than it does right now, but I suppose that is a testament to their training and hard they work and carefully they plan.  They had three air controllers with them, that would be who was responsible for suppressing during a top secret raid like this.  Everyone was leaving and missed something or someone if this was indeed a shootdown.  Every helicopter that goes down in Afghanistan during something like this is immediately pronounced a shootdown by the Taliban though, whether it was or not.


    I know Jim and I do, (5.00 / 1) (#70)
    by jeffinalabama on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 07:15:23 PM EST
    but I hope the rest of TL understands the gravity of losing 20 members out of Seal Team 6 at once. That's like losing 20 Delta Force members at once.

    As force multiplyers this stands as the equivalent of losing an entire brigade within seconds.


    Tracy, I understand that people get killed (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 11:11:44 PM EST
    And I understand that it may been an accident.

    But my point remains. Why would you bring in a fire team to an unpressed/unsecured LZ??

    That is dumb. Pure flat out 100% dumb.


    They were who secured your so (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Militarytracy on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 11:26:41 PM EST
    called LZ.  This was a top secret special forces raid.  Air support for suppression would have been guided in when needed by the three air controllers who were killed with the SEALs while the SEALs took care of things on the ground that they could tend to.  They suppressed for the Rangers who were on a mission acquiring a target.  We have no positions on the ground in these raids that belong to us longer than 45 minutes total max.  This isn't Vietnam :)  These missions are more like extractions, we don't own the real estate or have a presence where it is going down.

    This was a horrible loss, and yet....given the sheer number of missions these guys are doing they probably have a better survival rate at this time than those of us running around the states in our cars and crashing.  They aren't dumb, they are anything but.


    No. You suppress before you send in (none / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 08, 2011 at 08:55:02 AM EST
    unarmed aircraft loaded with troops and equipment. Said suppression by air support with fixed wing and/or helo gun ships.

    Now the suppression may or may not be successful but you gotta try before you send in unarmed troop carriers.

    After troops are on the ground the air controllers direct additional support, if needed. And additional efforts to secure the LZ are made.


    Listen to Jim, MT (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 08, 2011 at 09:06:52 AM EST
    His years in "naval aviation" have obviously taught him much more about these types of missions than the guys who do this for a living, ...

    ... even imaging what happened or didn't happen from the comfort of his arm chair.


    He's just pi$$ed (5.00 / 1) (#76)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Aug 08, 2011 at 09:44:32 AM EST
    because I said that what our very real problems morphed into in Afghanistan are the fault of George W. Bush and his desire to get some Iraq oil for himself and his friends :) And I'm still saying it :)

    Since neither of you two arm chair (none / 0) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 08, 2011 at 08:20:11 PM EST
    aviators ever did anything besides flap your jaws I have doubts you know jack about anything.

    I love how you ... (none / 0) (#79)
    by Yman on Mon Aug 08, 2011 at 09:32:08 PM EST
    ... pretend you know what people have or have not done, Jim.  Then again, maybe with practice, ...

    ... you'll get better at it.


    Oh, I think I know what you (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 10:01:21 AM EST
    have not done in respect to the military. After all, you told me that you are a lawyer.

    Heh (none / 0) (#82)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 10:05:08 AM EST
    People are born as lawyers?  Lawyers don't serve in the military?

    Who knew?

    BTW - You went wrong after the first three words.

    New record?


    Are you saying that you served (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 10:09:37 AM EST
    before you became a lawyer?

    And while JAG serves an important function you don't think of them in anything but support roles.

    I rest my case.


    I'm saying ... (none / 0) (#84)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 10:21:43 AM EST
    ... you draw illogical conclusions based on your own fact-free assumptions and faulty logic.  

    I rest my case.

    BTW - Thank G0d a client will never have to hear you say those words ...


    BTW - Are you suggesting ... (none / 0) (#85)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 10:28:08 AM EST
    ... that "support roles" are somehow less significant than combat positions?

    Like the guys who say they were "in naval aviation", without specifying their MOS?  Funny, but ...

    ... "you don't think of them in anything but support roles."


    I am saying that whatever I did (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 07:26:36 PM EST
    was much more than you.

    Really? That's not what it ... (none / 0) (#87)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 08:01:04 PM EST

    ... sounds like.  Then again, you haven't the slightest clue what I've done, so I guess your conclusion is as valuable as your other, baseless opinions.

    Funny how you appear to be very proud of your time spent in "naval aviation", but will never mention your MOS, where/when you served, etc.  tell ya what, Jim.  Tell me what you did and I'll tell you what I did and we'll compare.  Unless, of course, ...

    ... you're like the guy who was a hall monitor in elementary school telling everyone he used to be in "law enforcement".


    Frankly I don't trust you to be truthful. (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 09:53:18 PM EST
    Hope that doesn't hurt too much.

    And no, I never post what I did. All I have ever said is that I spent 10 years in Naval Aviation.

    What I do think is that you are Dark Avenger under a new moniker. Your shadowing, your phrasing, etc., all point to that.

    And yes, what ever I did in Naval Aviation is more than you have ever done.

    Have a nice night. I'm done with this since, like Dark Avenger, you have reframed the discussion and got us off subject.


    Awwwwweeee, c'mon Jim (none / 0) (#89)
    by Yman on Tue Aug 09, 2011 at 10:10:25 PM EST
    A winger doesn't trust me?  That hurts.... (snicker).

    Or, ...

    ... there's the real reason you never post what you did, other making vague references to being "in naval aviation".

    Don't forget to polish your Hall Monitor badge!


    As Round 3 comes to a close (none / 0) (#1)
    by CoralGables on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 12:18:59 PM EST
    It appears Tiger should have kept his caddy.

    I am not quite ready (none / 0) (#3)
    by observed on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 12:45:07 PM EST
    to feel sorry for him yet.

    If Adam Scott wins this (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by CoralGables on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 12:54:42 PM EST
    after hiring Tiger's caddy, there will likely be quite a few stifled giggles amongst players, media, and even casual fans.

    Current Leaderboard

    Tiger's Caddy - 1st
    Tiger - Tied for 38th


    Stifiled or not (none / 0) (#28)
    by cal1942 on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 03:45:44 PM EST
    If Scott wins, the caddies on the tour will have to be delighted.

    Not even Stevie... (none / 0) (#5)
    by MileHi Hawkeye on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:00:47 PM EST
    can help when you're missing one and two foot putts.  

    /I can do that!


    He needs to make a call (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by CoralGables on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:20:18 PM EST
    to Dr. Molly Griswold.

    Tiger blames his putting woes (none / 0) (#42)
    by CoralGables on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 06:31:52 PM EST
    this week on bentgrass greens. A bit odd since I believe he has won on the Firestone course seven times.

    Who read about the (none / 0) (#2)
    by observed on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 12:41:55 PM EST
    NYT puff piece  on the AFA? 'Some say ' it is a hate group, writes the reporter. He also links to AFA's claim that Hitler was gay, and cites Paul  'Exterminate gays'  Cameron.

    What's the AFA?? (none / 0) (#18)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:54:49 PM EST
    Assinine Fundamentalists of America (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by shoephone on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 02:34:36 PM EST
    Probably referring to the (none / 0) (#23)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 02:07:24 PM EST
    religious extremist group that's helping organize the Gov Perry-Christians Only-Pray for Our Country whoop-tee-do today at that big stadium in Houston.

    American Families Ass'n I think is AFA (I won't read NYT-linked pieces unless Krugman or something well done)


    There isn't even a link! (none / 0) (#39)
    by gyrfalcon on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 06:22:57 PM EST
    Man, do I hate single-sentence cryptic comments referencing somethingorother unnknowable that don't even include a link to whatever they're talking about.

    August 6...the day I reread (none / 0) (#11)
    by oldpro on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:24:15 PM EST
    John Hersey's Hiroshima.

    If you haven't read it, here's an introduction:


    There has been a move (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 02:02:48 PM EST
    lately by the fed govt and approved by Interior Sec'y Ken Salazar to create a Manhattan Project Nat'l Historic Park at three US sites relevant to the making of the bomb (Los Alamos, NM, Hanford, WA, Oak Ridge, TN).

    I have mixed feelings on that one, since it could well turn out to be a monument devoted mostly to supporting not only the making but the first use in war of the bomb.  And I don't think the people of Japan would be very happy about it if the presentation is too one-sided in favor of its having been used properly by Truman, as it almost certainly would be.


    Thanks for the link, Brodie. (none / 0) (#26)
    by oldpro on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 02:40:14 PM EST
    No doubt there is as much danger of propaganda as of educational information in such a monument.  Still, I would favor it...taking a chance on the possibility that information is better than lack of it and that human beings can learn.  Sometimes.

    Sounds good -- a little (none / 0) (#36)
    by brodie on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 05:35:55 PM EST
    too good though for what looks to be a controversy about to unfold.  

    Any monument to the Manhattan Project would have to be undertaken with the utmost care.  Make it too grandiose and it comes off as hard-hearted war-worshipping by the victor.  Say too little and you risk whitewashing history.  Say too much and you risk arousing one side which would prefer only the official story and reasoning as of August 1945 be told.  

    Shades of the 1995 Smithsonian Exhibit that was originally planned to include a detailed, frank script looking at both sides of the decision to drop the bomb.  That one got so heated, Congress got involved -- especially the war-worshippers on the Right -- and the exhibit had to be essentially canceled, with a bare-bones one saying very little in its place.

    Haven't been to Manzanar -- driven past it many times to and from Mammoth Mtn.  The info presented there would be interesting to see and evaluate as to its fairness and accurate depiction of that controversy.

    Changing Custer to the Little Big Horn -- a much easier call, especially given it was a humiliating defeat for the US side and given the more recently released info that (iirc) had been kept hidden away in (probably one of the Smithsonian museums in) D.C. for nearly all of the 20th C, the story which told of the battle from the Sioux perspective.  Also, Custer's long-time hard-working long-living widow -- who'd done so much for her husband to burnish the image of a sterling reputation in the minds of history -- had passed on and so it was easier to transition in the official history away from the false Custer the Heroic General to Custer the Not So Heroic General.


    Would you rather have us invade Japan? (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 10:55:59 AM EST
    Keep on fire bombing major population centers as we did Tokyo?

    I understand the shock of so many being killed by just two bombs. But they are no more dead than those many killed by many bombs.


    This is one (none / 0) (#21)
    by CoralGables on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 01:59:37 PM EST
    I passed down to my daughter as soon as I was sure she was able to grasp all that took place.

    3000 words about domestic violence... (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 05:48:16 PM EST
    Almost downrated for summer temps (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 11:24:18 PM EST

    Israeli Summer (none / 0) (#43)
    by Politalkix on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 06:57:05 PM EST
    Missed all coverage on teevee.

    Remember Bill Hicks? (none / 0) (#47)
    by jeffinalabama on Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 11:23:29 PM EST
    WAtching one of his old routines tonight, and what a comic. Crowd was quiet, and he said,

    "Y'all are staring at me like a dog that just got shown a card trick."

    What an excellent saying. I need to file that one away... (pinkie to corner of mouth)

    "What Happened to Obama" (none / 0) (#59)
    by KeysDan on Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 09:25:20 AM EST
    by Dr. Andrew Westen, professor of psychology at Emory University is an interesting and instructive opinion piece.   It appears in the NYT Sunday Review section (August 7, 20ll).  Highly recommended read.